Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. You guys, today is
Speaker 1: a big day. I'm a super fan of this man, Albarnachio.
Speaker 1: He has over twenty five years of experience as a
Speaker 1: human sexuality educator and consultant. He has done TED talks,
Speaker 1: he has published articles, he has appeared on national programs,
Speaker 1: and he's even written a book titled for Goodness, sex
Speaker 1: Changing the Way we talked to young people about sexuality,
Speaker 1: values and health. I first heard his genius on Katie
Speaker 1: Corex podcast and I was like, I gotta get this
Speaker 1: guy on Katie's Crib because I have no idea how
Speaker 1: to talk to my child about sex. Um, and you
Speaker 1: are really good at talking kids and people about sex.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib. Al Bernacchio, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I'm told really excited to be here. I feel like
Speaker 1: this time has been really interesting because, um, We've done
Speaker 1: a lot of episodes on Katie's Crib this season about
Speaker 1: talking to our kids about race, and a few times
Speaker 1: during those episodes, I've said, you know, it's crazy, my
Speaker 1: parents didn't talk to me about race. My parents didn't
Speaker 1: talk to me about sex and this is not good.
Speaker 1: This is a problem. And I feel very lucky that
Speaker 1: I use Katie's Crib as a platform to teach listeners
Speaker 1: how we can do a better job and practice these
Speaker 1: language skills that it requires to start talking to our
Speaker 1: children about things that maybe weren't discussed in our household,
Speaker 1: or maybe they were discussed in a poor, shameful, um
Speaker 1: not loving fashion. Can you first tell me what's the
Speaker 1: distinction between sex and sexuality? Oh? Sure, that's a great
Speaker 1: question to start with. UM. A lot of times when
Speaker 1: people think about sex, they either automatically think about sexual
Speaker 1: activity to sort of what parts you have and what
Speaker 1: you do with them, or they think about gender and
Speaker 1: sort of who you who you are inside your skin. Um,
Speaker 1: But sexuality is much bigger than that. Sexuality involves all
Speaker 1: the parts of our body, including our sexual parts, but
Speaker 1: it includes also our emotional capabilities, our relationship capabilities, you know, body, heart, mind,
Speaker 1: and spirit. If that's part of your belief system. Every
Speaker 1: minute of the day, we're sexual. People were not sexually active.
Speaker 1: But our sexuality is not something we can ever divorce
Speaker 1: ourselves from or or put aside or leave at home.
Speaker 1: When we go out to school or to work. Um,
Speaker 1: to be human is to be sexual, and to be
Speaker 1: sexual is to be human and so but unless we
Speaker 1: have that kind of integrated view, it is really hard
Speaker 1: to talk about with anybody because you're left thinking that
Speaker 1: you're gonna be talking about really intimate personal, specifically sexual
Speaker 1: activity kind of things, and people get freaked out about that.
Speaker 1: I totally understand that, right. So you work mostly with
Speaker 1: high school students, correct, I do. I'm My title is
Speaker 1: on the nursery through twelfth grade Sexuality Education Coordinator at
Speaker 1: my school, So I'm in charge of doing sex said
Speaker 1: for everybody, from our youngest students who are three years
Speaker 1: old up to our oldest students who are eighteen years old.
Speaker 1: But I do spend most of my time working with
Speaker 1: the high school students. But you know, on the person
Speaker 1: my ship right now. Hold on a second. Is this
Speaker 1: a title that exists in schools now? Because I don't
Speaker 1: think it existed when I went to school. No, it
Speaker 1: exists in my school because I'm there. It was an
Speaker 1: interesting confluence when when I went to my school. When
Speaker 1: I was hired twenty three years ago, I was actually
Speaker 1: hired as a full time English teacher because that's another
Speaker 1: thing that I do. UM. But I came to the
Speaker 1: school having already gotten a master's degree in human sexuality education,
Speaker 1: and I asked my school if they thought I might
Speaker 1: be able to use that degree in the service of
Speaker 1: our students, and so I sort of looked around the
Speaker 1: school and did some needs assessments, and very slowly I've
Speaker 1: been there twenty three years, and that title only became
Speaker 1: really official in the last few years. But I've been
Speaker 1: slowly building and doing sexuality education um, starting in the
Speaker 1: high school and then moving to the middle school and
Speaker 1: moving to the lower school, all through that time, step
Speaker 1: by step, you know, program by program, UM. And there
Speaker 1: are some schools that have people like me in it,
Speaker 1: not a whole lot, But unfortunately, in many schools, you know,
Speaker 1: sexuality education is left to either science teachers, or health
Speaker 1: and pe teachers or religion teachers, all of whom are
Speaker 1: lovely people and who I'm sure love kids as much
Speaker 1: in the same ways as I do. But they're not
Speaker 1: trained to do this work. And I'm specific we trained
Speaker 1: to do it. And we're talking about like sex education
Speaker 1: versus what you just defined is the difference between sex,
Speaker 1: which yes, we all need to learn the mechanics of
Speaker 1: the whole thing. But sexuality is such a huge, huge
Speaker 1: topic for hormonal teenagers. But also starting now, I mean
Speaker 1: with my three year old. When you say that you've
Speaker 1: talked to three year olds about it, like, what am
Speaker 1: I supposed to be doing? I mean, I would like
Speaker 1: myself and our listeners to who a lot of them
Speaker 1: have little ones to do our part in raising little
Speaker 1: people who are um woke when it comes to consent
Speaker 1: and respectful of other people's bodies and things like that.
Speaker 1: And I don't even like know where to start. Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, you know, nobody who becomes a parent suddenly
Speaker 1: gets imbewed with the the information or the skills to
Speaker 1: do this. It's and that's part of why I also
Speaker 1: work a lot with parents, because parents need help and
Speaker 1: I totally get that. Um So, for little ones, I'm
Speaker 1: going to take a cue from a guy named Danny Horne,
Speaker 1: who is a sex educator that I've known for a
Speaker 1: long time, and he says, with little ones, you focus
Speaker 1: on three f's family, fairness and kind of fairy tale love.
Speaker 1: So for for a little three year olds, when I
Speaker 1: go into the kindergarten in the pre k in my school,
Speaker 1: I bring story books that talk about diverse kinds of families,
Speaker 1: that everybody's family is different, and everybody's family is about love,
Speaker 1: about fairness, that nobody should be treated differently just because
Speaker 1: they're a boy or a girl, or their transgender or
Speaker 1: their cis gender, or they have two mommies or they
Speaker 1: have two daddies, skin color, or a different ethnicity exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: And then the third one about sort of the Disney
Speaker 1: fairy tale love, is that everybody deserves to love and
Speaker 1: be loved, and that that's all kinds of love. Everybody,
Speaker 1: you know, someday if they want, gets to have a sweetheart,
Speaker 1: and that sweetheart can be a boy or a girl
Speaker 1: or anybody that somebody loves. Everybody is worthy of love
Speaker 1: from their family, from their friends, and someday from their sweethearts.
Speaker 1: So families, fairness and fairy tale love is a great
Speaker 1: place to center when you're working with with little ones.
Speaker 1: And that's the kind of work that I do. And
Speaker 1: of course, you know, now we do need to talk
Speaker 1: about things like consent. There are some great um books
Speaker 1: out now, even little board books for teeny ones about
Speaker 1: consent um. You know, it's a little bit different than
Speaker 1: the good touch bad touch. That's also information we always
Speaker 1: have to do. But consent is more about body positivity
Speaker 1: and a sense of ownership and a sense of developing
Speaker 1: the beginnings of agency, about who gets to interact with
Speaker 1: your body. Um, and those are things we can do
Speaker 1: with little kids, not in a sophisticated way, but in
Speaker 1: a some away. I definitely have moments now where I'm
Speaker 1: trying to practice, like, you know, one of his little friends, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, he'll just go up to her or him
Speaker 1: and you know, really like aggressively squeeze the ship out
Speaker 1: of that person, right like he's so excited to see
Speaker 1: that person. And I just try to intervene and say, hey,
Speaker 1: let's take a step back and let's ask can I
Speaker 1: hug you? Would you like to get hugged or something
Speaker 1: like that, you know, And then and then I say,
Speaker 1: he'll ask, and sometimes that kid says okay, and I'll
Speaker 1: be will give a hug, And sometimes that kid says no,
Speaker 1: and then Alby does it anyway, and then I have
Speaker 1: to say up, up, up. You know, they said no,
Speaker 1: which means they don't want to receive a hug right now,
Speaker 1: Like is that the sort of bait, like we can start.
Speaker 1: There's an amazing lesson and that's a perfect way to
Speaker 1: do it. It's exhausting. My kid is like like the
Speaker 1: King of like, oh, let me just invade your personal space.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, well, I mean, all little kids are
Speaker 1: little kids. You know. Little kids are about about love
Speaker 1: and connection and belonging and they just and so teaching
Speaker 1: them that it's really important to ask people if they
Speaker 1: want to hug, or if they want to play or
Speaker 1: you know, if they want to high five or a
Speaker 1: fist bump. And practicing that with them is an amazingly
Speaker 1: important skill to start. And then you know, we sort
Speaker 1: of transfer those skills as kids grow to more complex
Speaker 1: situations about this fairy tale love? What do we do
Speaker 1: about fairy tales that are you know what I'm gonna ask, boy, girl,
Speaker 1: you know the same thing all the time. I'm sure
Speaker 1: that we are hopefully getting better here that there are
Speaker 1: board books that exist where people are falling in love
Speaker 1: that aren't a blonde girl with like a small stomach
Speaker 1: and boobs and some yeah, absolutely, and there there are
Speaker 1: plenty of beautiful books that are written today for little
Speaker 1: kids that have all kinds of relationships and all kinds
Speaker 1: of love depicted, so it's not that hard to find
Speaker 1: them if you if you look for them. Um. But
Speaker 1: I think what's really important, A really simple thing, for example,
Speaker 1: is when we're talking to little kids, I very de
Speaker 1: liberately use the word sweetheart instead of boyfriend or girlfriend,
Speaker 1: because I want to model that those aren't the only
Speaker 1: two asticating right on that anticipating or expecting that their
Speaker 1: sweetheart is going to be any particular gender or have
Speaker 1: any particular body. So um, and then I like to
Speaker 1: point out, so you know, Uncle Dave and Uncle Joe
Speaker 1: are sweethearts, and mommy and Daddy are sweethearts, and you know,
Speaker 1: and and that way they begin to understand that term
Speaker 1: and the multiple ways that term can be applied. Um.
Speaker 1: So even the very choice of our language is key
Speaker 1: when talking with little kids, because we're modeling the kind
Speaker 1: of inclusivity and the kind of of openness that we're
Speaker 1: hoping to develop. You developed an alternative approach to sex
Speaker 1: education Before we get into that, can you share? I
Speaker 1: thought this was fascinating in your TED talk that there
Speaker 1: are two sex said models that listeners may be familiar
Speaker 1: with but haven't analyzed. There's the disaster prevention model and
Speaker 1: the porn model, right, can you explain those two things? Sure?
Speaker 1: So the disaster model is the way a lot of people, um,
Speaker 1: in my generation I'm fifty six, grew up, which is
Speaker 1: hearing messages like, um, sex is a beautiful thing, but
Speaker 1: if you do it wrong, gonna kill you. And um,
Speaker 1: you know, sex is perfect when it's with the one
Speaker 1: you love in a beautiful married relationship, but anything else
Speaker 1: is going to leave you with like wards and scales
Speaker 1: and horrible diseases. Um. And it was a lot about
Speaker 1: fear and a lot about we can't tell kids the
Speaker 1: joyful parts about healthy sexuality because that's going to lead
Speaker 1: them to do things are not ready for. So we
Speaker 1: make this disaster model that tries to scare kids and
Speaker 1: they're not having sex. And of course that never worked.
Speaker 1: All it did was make us doubt adults were telling
Speaker 1: us the truth about anything. Um. But a lot of
Speaker 1: us grew up with that model, and it it's in
Speaker 1: City as Lee sort of inserted itself into a lot
Speaker 1: of our media, a lot of our education, a lot
Speaker 1: of our parenting. So we have to be on the
Speaker 1: lookout for that, you know, when are we conveying negative
Speaker 1: messages out of fear. Um, if we're doing that, we're
Speaker 1: following the disaster model. The porn model has always been there,
Speaker 1: but really has come to light obviously with the advent
Speaker 1: of the digital world and the Internet and the easy
Speaker 1: accessibility of pornography and sexually explicit material. And the porn
Speaker 1: model says that kind of no matter what you're doing,
Speaker 1: it's somehow going to lead to sex, which I don't
Speaker 1: know about your life. My life. Every porn is like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're in a desk office situation. Oh, whoopsie, dipsy, I
Speaker 1: have to change my tire. Up here we go, we're
Speaker 1: cleaning out the refrigerator. What else we got? It's like
Speaker 1: up and now we're yep. And then the other thing
Speaker 1: the porn model says, which I think is even more damaging,
Speaker 1: is that the sex that people have have isn't integrated
Speaker 1: or connected to the rest of their lives in any
Speaker 1: meaningful way. So, like, you know, as an English teacher,
Speaker 1: I can say that most of the sexually explicit stories
Speaker 1: I've seen are not big on plot. You know, there's
Speaker 1: not a lot of like character development, and uh, I
Speaker 1: don't know who these people are. I don't know the
Speaker 1: kind of lives they have, I don't know what their
Speaker 1: interests are. And and for healthy sexuality, we have to
Speaker 1: integrate our sexual lives into the fabric of the rest
Speaker 1: of our lives. So my high school kids, I often
Speaker 1: ask them this question. I say, well, so, if you've
Speaker 1: ever seen material like that, did you ever wonder what
Speaker 1: the people in those movies are doing? Twenty minutes after
Speaker 1: the camera turned off? They don't write, you know, do
Speaker 1: these people grocery shop? Do they have kids? Do they
Speaker 1: go to church? Do they have parents? I mean, the
Speaker 1: answer to that is some of that's true for most
Speaker 1: of those people. But porn doesn't show us that focuses
Speaker 1: our lives solely on the sexually active part of our lives,
Speaker 1: and it isolates that part, and it also sort of
Speaker 1: fetishizes and fantasizes those parts because you're seeing bodies that
Speaker 1: don't look like typical bodies, and you're seeing sex that
Speaker 1: isn't like the sex that most people I know have.
Speaker 1: I mean, I always tell my high school kids that
Speaker 1: you know, there there is nothing more fumbly and funny
Speaker 1: and awkward than being sexual with somebody, and that that's
Speaker 1: that's part of the magic of it. You know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't ever work like it is on TV and in
Speaker 1: the movies because that's staged and constructed. Oh I know,
Speaker 1: it's the worst. Let me tell you, it's awkward for
Speaker 1: us to when we do sex scenes. It's like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I have to like literally make out with
Speaker 1: someone in front of a hundred and fifty people that
Speaker 1: I've never made out with before, and I'm well aware
Speaker 1: that it's not going to look great. It's going to
Speaker 1: be weird. We have to have conversations. Thank god, there's
Speaker 1: intimacy coordinators now, but like conversations about like are you
Speaker 1: cool with tongue? Are you not? Like are we making sound?
Speaker 1: Are we not? Because I don't want to be lift
Speaker 1: out to dry out there. I mean, it is so awkward.
Speaker 1: But that's just a side note for any of you
Speaker 1: actors listening who feel me. But I heard correct me
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. At the average age now for kids
Speaker 1: to see porn, and a lot of times violent porn,
Speaker 1: like is eleven? Is that true? That's true. That's that's
Speaker 1: the average. Some kids are seeing it younger than that,
Speaker 1: some kids older. But you know, by the age of eleven,
Speaker 1: we can assume that most kids have seen some example
Speaker 1: of often violently sexually explicit materially and it's not ques
Speaker 1: there looking for it. It's caused their online and they
Speaker 1: fumble into it, or they friend picked it up and
Speaker 1: everybody they misspell things into a search engine, all kinds
Speaker 1: of ways. Absolutely. I can remember in my age, I
Speaker 1: had like one the first computers. Um, My girlfriend came
Speaker 1: over and we googled. This is how far we've come. Guys.
Speaker 1: We googled Michelangelo's David and zeroed in on on the
Speaker 1: penis and like that was crazy. Do you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? It's like, we have come so far? How
Speaker 1: are we supposed to prepare our kids for that inevitable?
Speaker 1: Like anyone listening who's like, that's not going to be
Speaker 1: my kid, You're crazy. Let's just accept your kids going
Speaker 1: to see some crazy, freaky ass porn around the age
Speaker 1: of eleven. What do we do if an amazing Albarnakio
Speaker 1: is not in our school? So the first thing you
Speaker 1: have to think about is what kind of conversations have
Speaker 1: I been having with my kids about just general media,
Speaker 1: about what they see on TV, about what they what
Speaker 1: they see in cartoons? Um, are we talking about the
Speaker 1: way gender is portrayed. Are we talking about real versus fake?
Speaker 1: Are we talking about how what we're watching is often
Speaker 1: constructed and really different from the way it happens in
Speaker 1: real life. If we started those conversations, the porn conversation
Speaker 1: is just an extension of that. It's just saying this
Speaker 1: is material that sort of goes in many ways to
Speaker 1: the extreme, with the um fake versus real stuff that
Speaker 1: it looks like. I mean, yes, these are real naked
Speaker 1: people and they're really kissing or they're really doing sexual things,
Speaker 1: but there are camera people, and there are scripts, and
Speaker 1: there's lighting and there's a whole bunch of things that
Speaker 1: are creating it to look like it's natural when it's
Speaker 1: really not. Here's the difference of what it looks like
Speaker 1: when it's sort of natural. And I don't mean showing
Speaker 1: kids that, I mean talking about those differences. You know,
Speaker 1: I say that, um, thinking that you can learn how
Speaker 1: to have sex from watching porn is like thinking you
Speaker 1: can learn how to drive by watching The Fast and
Speaker 1: the Furious. Totally, that's a great analogy. So a really
Speaker 1: simple language like that can help. And I also think
Speaker 1: it's really important that we and this is really hard,
Speaker 1: so we sort of summon our courage and we sort
Speaker 1: of lean into this. UM. We don't want to shame
Speaker 1: kids for being curious, because a lot of kids, especially
Speaker 1: younger kids who are looking at porn, are really curious
Speaker 1: about bodies and about sex and about relationships. And so
Speaker 1: we also need material that we can offer to kids.
Speaker 1: So websites like sex etcetera, or amazed dot org or
Speaker 1: if they're a little older, Scarlet Team. There are plenty
Speaker 1: of really good websites out there that are designed for
Speaker 1: young people that give clear information about this. I mean,
Speaker 1: one of my favorites these days is amazed dot org.
Speaker 1: There are these tiny um animated videos there are three,
Speaker 1: four or five minutes long about everything from consent to pornography,
Speaker 1: to periods, two bodies to your first kiss. And they're
Speaker 1: amazing and beautiful and so carefully done. UM. And so
Speaker 1: to say, look, if you're curious about something, I want
Speaker 1: to actually help you find out what you want to know.
Speaker 1: This is not the best way to learn about that.
Speaker 1: Let's try this. UM Now. I know that a lot
Speaker 1: of parents may feel discomfort around that, you know, and
Speaker 1: I think the key is really being able to find
Speaker 1: websites and books for all different ages that that people
Speaker 1: can look to. And I think it's really just a
Speaker 1: matter of not if you're going to have that conversation,
Speaker 1: but when and how have you been leading up to
Speaker 1: that conversation in what you're doing. You have to really
Speaker 1: make it an add on to what you're doing. It
Speaker 1: can't just be a whole new conversation. It's gotta have
Speaker 1: It's like all these little building blocks that have been
Speaker 1: placed along the way, and you might feel embarrassed, but
Speaker 1: you have to put that aside and say something like, hey, dude,
Speaker 1: like I I really want to talk to you about
Speaker 1: this stuff. I'm going to go think about it for
Speaker 1: a minute and come back to you, you know, tonight
Speaker 1: or tomorrow. We can talk about this, you know. But
Speaker 1: it's like really making sure you can be open to
Speaker 1: the opportunity when your kids ask questions or are curious. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my friend Deva Rothman says it's much better to have
Speaker 1: a hundred one minute talks with your kid than one
Speaker 1: minute talk, right, And they don't all need to be
Speaker 1: like heavy, deep and reel, just a just a comment
Speaker 1: that shows you acknowledge and you're observing. Wow, that's not
Speaker 1: the way that I think about women when I think
Speaker 1: about them the way this music video shows them, something like,
Speaker 1: that's a conversation, right, it doesn't need to be a
Speaker 1: whole big deal. That's really great. I my parents never
Speaker 1: talked to me um about sex, even though we were
Speaker 1: a very um like open household. I grew up in
Speaker 1: a house that only had one bathroom and there were
Speaker 1: four of us, and so it was like non negotiable that,
Speaker 1: like everybody was in there at one time in bras underwear.
Speaker 1: It's like like it was the reality of the situation.
Speaker 1: Like they were very open, but they never talked to
Speaker 1: me about sex until my cousin got pregnant at sixteen
Speaker 1: and my mom came burst into the bathroom and was like,
Speaker 1: are you practicing safe sex? Do you use a condom?
Speaker 1: Like it was so it was like insane um And
Speaker 1: it was the first time we'd ever talked about sex,
Speaker 1: and it was aggressive and scary. And I already knew
Speaker 1: all that, Like I was already sixteen, already knew about condoms,
Speaker 1: already new about sex. I already lost my virginity, like
Speaker 1: it was, you know what I mean, it was already
Speaker 1: at old that but like she freaked out because it
Speaker 1: became a reality to her that I could get pregnant.
Speaker 1: You know, Um, when are people suggested to to have
Speaker 1: conversations with their daughters about birth control? Or like, are
Speaker 1: we supposed to wait for them to bring it up?
Speaker 1: Or do we bring it up in these little versations
Speaker 1: along the way. Well, like most questions, there's not one
Speaker 1: definitive answer. Some people feel more comfortable kind of waiting
Speaker 1: until the kids bring it up. That's not my favorite
Speaker 1: strategy because I think we need to be giving kids
Speaker 1: messages all along. So even if they're not bringing it up,
Speaker 1: I think it's important for us not to say, like,
Speaker 1: are you having sex? And do you know how to
Speaker 1: use a condom? But um, hey have they talked about
Speaker 1: condoms in school or when you're watching TV? Hey? Do
Speaker 1: you know when people say having sex? Do you know
Speaker 1: what that means? Um? And I think putting it also
Speaker 1: in the sense of I want to make sure that
Speaker 1: you can have the most positive, healthy, you know, enjoyable
Speaker 1: experiences that that you can have when it's time to
Speaker 1: have them. This is one place where Europe just does
Speaker 1: so much better than we do. You know, Europeans are
Speaker 1: much more calm about talking about sex with their kids.
Speaker 1: They're much more at ease thinking about older teens as
Speaker 1: becoming sexually active and that that's sort of a natural,
Speaker 1: normal part of the life cycle. Um, and not every
Speaker 1: kid is, but a lot of them are. You know,
Speaker 1: if you're seventeen and you live in Denmark, for example,
Speaker 1: it's not unusual that your parents will say to you,
Speaker 1: you know, you have a sweetheart. I know that maybe
Speaker 1: you're thinking about being sexual with them. I'd so much
Speaker 1: rather if you're going to have sex, you bring your
Speaker 1: sweet heart home and you have it here in your
Speaker 1: own bedroom where it's safe and comfortable and there's people
Speaker 1: who you love around you. You know that sounds crazy
Speaker 1: to a lot of American parents to think they would
Speaker 1: totally freaking my god. My dad would be like, are
Speaker 1: you just like then on my little girl, like not
Speaker 1: in my under my roof? And I get that, and
Speaker 1: I get that, and you know, those values are important
Speaker 1: and we can talk about those, but um, but you know,
Speaker 1: at what point are we really thinking about the reality
Speaker 1: of our kids and our kids lives and how do
Speaker 1: we help them. We don't want them to be heatonists.
Speaker 1: We want them to make really good, value based, healthy decisions.
Speaker 1: They can't do that without information totally. They can't do
Speaker 1: that without practice in decision making. So how are we
Speaker 1: helping them move towards those more adult decisions as they
Speaker 1: grow up and as we talk to them. It's funny
Speaker 1: as a nanny, I've become like certain moms in betweens
Speaker 1: where like, like the moms have been like, hey, can
Speaker 1: you just find out if my kid is doing stuff?
Speaker 1: I don't care if they are. I want them to
Speaker 1: be like living their best life, but just please let
Speaker 1: me know if they're not happy or something like that.
Speaker 1: And I'm like so relieved because one of the girls
Speaker 1: is sexually active who I used to babies it for,
Speaker 1: and she feels great about her choice, So I feel
Speaker 1: so great, do you know what I mean? Like, I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, thank God, because I know how bad
Speaker 1: it can go. The most we can hope for is
Speaker 1: that they feel empowered by their choice. Man or woman,
Speaker 1: trans whatever you are, that you just can look back
Speaker 1: on that memory of being in your first loving relationship
Speaker 1: or the first time you were sexual with someone or
Speaker 1: whatever it is and look back and be like psyched
Speaker 1: about I totally get it, and it's it's my goal too.
Speaker 1: I mean, how many of us look back on our
Speaker 1: early sexual experiences with real fondness or with joy or think, wow,
Speaker 1: that was awesome. You know, many of us fumbled into
Speaker 1: things we weren't really thinking about, ready for, psyched about.
Speaker 1: And you know, the saddest thing in the world is
Speaker 1: when I hear kids tell me, you know, they had
Speaker 1: sex just to get it over work or that, or
Speaker 1: they tell me like, well, it has to hurt the
Speaker 1: first time, Like, no, it doesn't, and we can talk
Speaker 1: about that and if it does, you know, we can
Speaker 1: do something about that. Genius. I'm so glad you exist.
Speaker 1: So tell me about your developed alternative approach to sex education.
Speaker 1: So it's you know, pretty common in America that when
Speaker 1: we talk about sex we use baseball language like sloppy
Speaker 1: second I mean, oh my god, does that still exist.
Speaker 1: It does now exist more with younger kids. It's more
Speaker 1: of a middle school kind of thing. But the problem
Speaker 1: is that once you start talking about it that way,
Speaker 1: that model sort of stays in your head. And so
Speaker 1: even though high school kids don't talk about first base,
Speaker 1: second base, third base, you know, they still have that
Speaker 1: model that sex is this kind of competitive game that's
Speaker 1: kind of like me against you offense and defense. Um,
Speaker 1: and that really sets up some bad stuff, and especially
Speaker 1: if you're talking about heterosexual sex, because in the baseball model,
Speaker 1: you know, very often it's the it's the male bodied,
Speaker 1: you know, boy identified person who's rounding the bases, and
Speaker 1: the girl is the field that the game gets played. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't get the second base by touching a guy's
Speaker 1: boob and everybody would know that. Um, So that model
Speaker 1: is really destructive. But I have to say that model
Speaker 1: is packed with power and privilege and patriarchy and is
Speaker 1: not going anywhere because there's a lot of people really
Speaker 1: invested in it. So what I think we have to
Speaker 1: do is give kids the ability to think of an
Speaker 1: alternative model. So I come up with the p some
Speaker 1: model that instead of thinking about having sex like rounding
Speaker 1: the bases, we think about it like having pizza. A
Speaker 1: couple of differences that are important. So when you play baseball,
Speaker 1: you don't always get to decide when it's time to play, right.
Speaker 1: There are certain times and seasons and events that just
Speaker 1: require you to play baseball. Pizza Ideally, you have it
Speaker 1: when you want to have it, when you're hungry for it,
Speaker 1: when you have an internal yen or desire for it.
Speaker 1: So it starts in here, not out there. Baseball's competitive,
Speaker 1: pizzas cooperative. Baseball's sort of strictly bound by rules. You
Speaker 1: go to first, then you go to second, then you
Speaker 1: go to third. Pizzas about choice. What do you like,
Speaker 1: what do you want? What tastes good to you? What
Speaker 1: are you feeling now? And that can be different and
Speaker 1: different experiences. Baseball is about winning and losing, scoring a
Speaker 1: lot of runs, winning the game. Pizzas about feeling satisfied.
Speaker 1: You get to decide when you stop. You don't have
Speaker 1: to have the entire pizza to have a good pizza experience.
Speaker 1: Um so it's a whole different model and way of thinking.
Speaker 1: Pizza is much more about variety and choice and is
Speaker 1: much more sensual, like appealing to the senses right now,
Speaker 1: and I can't. I'm starving, like you're My mouth is
Speaker 1: like sorry, you're talking about things. I'm just thinking about pizza.
Speaker 1: Keep going and that's fine. Kids do that. Every Every
Speaker 1: Wednesday in my school is Pizza Day and literally is
Speaker 1: hystorical about that. Um, you know, pizza is much more
Speaker 1: The pizza model is much more inclusive because you don't
Speaker 1: need a bat and a ball in a glove. Right.
Speaker 1: I work in a school that has a very large
Speaker 1: Jewish population, So during Passover we have mazza pizza in
Speaker 1: the cafeterias, Pizza that's legit in the same way that
Speaker 1: the same way that bagel pizza is legit, in the
Speaker 1: same way that a vegan pizza is legit. It's about
Speaker 1: preference and choice, and you know what works for you.
Speaker 1: So we need to give kids a model that's much
Speaker 1: more like that than a model that's restrictive and that's
Speaker 1: very rule bounds, competitive based, and goal oriented, because that's
Speaker 1: just gonna lead to really bad sex for most people,
Speaker 1: and that's not the goal. The goal is to really
Speaker 1: have people feel good. Have you found that this model
Speaker 1: resonates with young people? It does. I mean, it certainly
Speaker 1: resonates a lot with young women because they realize the
Speaker 1: flaws of the baseball model resonates a lot with LGBTQ
Speaker 1: folks because they feel included in it um And you know,
Speaker 1: even straight guys who really want to be good partners
Speaker 1: and are thinking about their partners not just a glorified
Speaker 1: sex toy, but as as a human being. They want
Speaker 1: to interact with they really get how even what their
Speaker 1: intentions are can change the impact of what happens. So
Speaker 1: they may they may want to be really affirming and
Speaker 1: and not boxed in, but they feel so freaked out
Speaker 1: that they resort to this very easily accessible model and
Speaker 1: it winds up not providing what they are they're sweethearts
Speaker 1: really want, right, So yeah, there's definitely been an openness
Speaker 1: to it. We talked a lot about language and it's funny,
Speaker 1: I heard myself even say it, I said, lost my virginity?
Speaker 1: Oh God, what do we do about that? What do
Speaker 1: we do about the language of losing your virginity? Also,
Speaker 1: you've talked about having sex, like how can we make
Speaker 1: waves parents listening with young children about changing the language
Speaker 1: around this stuff. Sure, a lot of the language is
Speaker 1: is old, a lot of it's very sexist, a lot
Speaker 1: of it's very heterosexist. So so, for example, losing virginity,
Speaker 1: you know, the whole concept of virginity, which I don't
Speaker 1: want to throw the whole concept out because there's some
Speaker 1: positive things about the idea. When you look historically at
Speaker 1: what virginity meant, who it was important for. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was from the time when marriage was a business transaction,
Speaker 1: and you know you've got you got more goats for
Speaker 1: a woman who was pure a virgin. Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: know what did that actually mean? That meant not penetrated vaginally,
Speaker 1: as if that somehow magically and for pureness no matter
Speaker 1: what the person had done, and with it conferred some
Speaker 1: sort of like damaged goods. Um. So we have to
Speaker 1: be really honest about where those terms came from, what
Speaker 1: they're about. A lot of my work and sexuality education
Speaker 1: is about reframing concepts. Here's the way we've looked at it,
Speaker 1: here's what's problematic about it. Let's try something else, and
Speaker 1: the new thing might not work the first time, so
Speaker 1: you keep trying it until you get something that really works.
Speaker 1: So for reframing virginity, you know, I like to not
Speaker 1: think about losing virginity because it's not something you have
Speaker 1: to lose. I also don't like the idea of like
Speaker 1: giving virginity, because that feels like it's some kind of
Speaker 1: prize that people. You know, there's not real good language
Speaker 1: for this, So I say that my definition of virginity
Speaker 1: is tied to my definition of having sex. So I
Speaker 1: don't like the definition of having sex that implies just
Speaker 1: vaginal intercourse or an intercourse. It says nothing about consent,
Speaker 1: nothing about pleasure, nothing about intention, nothing about desire. So
Speaker 1: my definition of having sex, which kids hate, by the way,
Speaker 1: because it's complicated and long, is you know, consensual, sober
Speaker 1: sexual activity that's mutually pleasurable, and that includes reproduction if
Speaker 1: you want it. That's that's kind of a mouthful. And
Speaker 1: kids are like, well, how do we know what people did?
Speaker 1: Why do we have to know what people do? Well?
Speaker 1: How that's the big thing in school. It's like he
Speaker 1: made it to third base and what's his name's bar Mitts,
Speaker 1: vote whatever, and your back to baseball's room to base,
Speaker 1: and that's how we all find out how far they
Speaker 1: got right, And nobody ever challenges like, hey, what does
Speaker 1: that matter? Why do I need to know that? How
Speaker 1: is that my business? And if that impacts the way
Speaker 1: I'm going to look at this person? What does that
Speaker 1: say about me and about the way I think about right?
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, it's so interesting. Um, okay, your kids masturbating,
Speaker 1: you walk in, what are you supposed to say? You
Speaker 1: say excuse me and you walk You know, it seems
Speaker 1: pretty right. You know, we're not in trouble. Actually, right,
Speaker 1: actually I have. That's that's in my book. It's one
Speaker 1: of the things I address is what happens if you
Speaker 1: walk in on your kid having sex, your kid masturbating.
Speaker 1: And it depends what your house rules are, you know,
Speaker 1: Like if I'm allowed to be alone in my room
Speaker 1: with the door closed and I'm a teenager, I might
Speaker 1: very well be masturbating. And if you walk in, then
Speaker 1: you know and I'm doing that. If you freak out,
Speaker 1: what's the message I'm going to learn from that? If
Speaker 1: you say, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you want
Speaker 1: a private time whatever, that's a whole different message, right.
Speaker 1: I always say to parents, try to access your hopes,
Speaker 1: not your fears. So when we react in shame based ways,
Speaker 1: we are acting out of fear something's wrong with my kid,
Speaker 1: my kids doing something that's going to create a bad life. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: masturbation is totally healthy, and if we react to it
Speaker 1: as a normal part of development for many kids, then
Speaker 1: we say, oh, okay, right, yeah, it's not something I
Speaker 1: want to see. But you know you're old enough you
Speaker 1: get to have private time. Maybe we need to figure out, like,
Speaker 1: if you really don't want me to come in your room,
Speaker 1: you put a sock on the door, or we have
Speaker 1: a knock three times rule or something like that that
Speaker 1: tells me you might need some private time. The whole
Speaker 1: shame around sex thing, I think that this is hard,
Speaker 1: This is really hard. I think it's tied to some
Speaker 1: people with their religion, with with their parents. Shame is
Speaker 1: a reaction to feeling like not I've done something that's wrong,
Speaker 1: but I am something that's wrong. You know, Bernie Brown
Speaker 1: talks about that time is I am a mistake? Guilt
Speaker 1: is I've done something wrong? And and when it comes
Speaker 1: to sexual shame, that just creates such unhealthy sexuality in
Speaker 1: people because it makes who we are fundamentally an error.
Speaker 1: You know, if if if you get shamed for being
Speaker 1: gay or trans or left handed or blue eyed or whatever,
Speaker 1: that makes you a mistake. And it's really hard to
Speaker 1: access healthy relationships when you feel like what you're bringing
Speaker 1: to the table is a mistake. Now guilt, which is
Speaker 1: I've done something that violates the value or violates a
Speaker 1: rule that's not always bad. And I'm Italian Catholic, like
Speaker 1: shame and guilt or my middle I grew up with
Speaker 1: my whole life and you know, sometimes guilt can really
Speaker 1: be like, oh, I kind of screwed up and I
Speaker 1: need to think about that. But shame is never a
Speaker 1: good thing. And so whenever we are tempted to react
Speaker 1: out of shame, it helps to ask ourselves, like, what
Speaker 1: am I afraid of in this moment? What's my fear?
Speaker 1: And then where's the positive? Where's the hope, where's the good?
Speaker 1: Because I don't think any parent, I mean, I'm not
Speaker 1: a parent, so I can't speak to this, but I
Speaker 1: think you want your kids, someday, when the time is right,
Speaker 1: for them to have really amazing, loving, pleasurable, great sexual experiences. Right.
Speaker 1: You don't want them to feel terrible about their bodies
Speaker 1: or ashamed of everything they do, or that somehow they're
Speaker 1: creating evil when they're trying to connect with somebody in
Speaker 1: a really intimate way. So again, how do we encourage
Speaker 1: that hope? How do we help kids walk towards I'm
Speaker 1: going to have healthy, open, honest, consent based pleasure, aware
Speaker 1: of relationships, not I'm going to get around breaking the
Speaker 1: rules and I'm going to get around, you know, sneaking
Speaker 1: around so that nobody knows what I'm doing this, right,
Speaker 1: I can remember my sister in law, who she's such
Speaker 1: an amazing mom, she's a daughter, and we were talking
Speaker 1: about her being sexually active, which of course was like
Speaker 1: you it was like jokes and you know, just like whatever,
Speaker 1: and she just came out of left field with the
Speaker 1: again baseball guys. Wow, she came out of left field
Speaker 1: with like um, with just a really profound It struck me.
Speaker 1: I still think about it. She just was like, well, whenever,
Speaker 1: you know my daughter is actually active. I just hope
Speaker 1: she's safe and comfortable enough where she can be vulnerable,
Speaker 1: and I hope she has a really good time, and
Speaker 1: I hope she really enjoys herself. And I was like, whoa,
Speaker 1: that is the coolest mom answer I've ever heard. Like
Speaker 1: I never even thought about that as an option, you know, right,
Speaker 1: that doesn't even make the list when we're thinking about it, awful, Like,
Speaker 1: of course you want them for your children. How do
Speaker 1: we teach our kids to practice safe sex, not just
Speaker 1: wearing a condom or taking birth control? And how do
Speaker 1: you teach your kids about consent? Okay, so those are
Speaker 1: two big questions. So consents a conversation that has to
Speaker 1: exist around far more than just sex, right, we have
Speaker 1: to think about everyday consent. For me, consent is required
Speaker 1: whenever we interact with somebody else's body, property, or reputation.
Speaker 1: So if I'm going to interact with somebody else's body
Speaker 1: or somebody else's stuff, or if I'm going to interact
Speaker 1: with somebody's reputations say something about them that's going to
Speaker 1: impact the way other people see them, I need consent.
Speaker 1: So whether it's borrowing a French fry, or you know,
Speaker 1: can I give you a high five? Or hey, guess
Speaker 1: what I heard about somebody? All those are consent situations.
Speaker 1: The better we are everyday consent, the better will be
Speaker 1: as sexual consent. Partly why we're so bad at sexual
Speaker 1: consent is we're not focused enough on consent in our
Speaker 1: everyday lives. And that doesn't mean walking around with like
Speaker 1: legal contracts and clipboards. It just means being aware of
Speaker 1: how I'm interacting with people and how much choice I'm
Speaker 1: giving people, being aware of my own actions and interactions,
Speaker 1: and being aware that other people are people and they
Speaker 1: deserved have agency and choice. So of course you want that.
Speaker 1: When it comes to sex, which is one of the
Speaker 1: most intimate things people can do together, it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be, but often often we want it to be.
Speaker 1: But kids often get kind of legalistic about it, especially
Speaker 1: high school kids, like, you know, do I have to
Speaker 1: ask about every single thing I do? Well? I mean ideally, yeah,
Speaker 1: but in most situations that doesn't happen. Does non verbal
Speaker 1: consent count well? Yeah, we communicate verbally and nonverbally, but
Speaker 1: verbal consent is usually a lot more clear and a
Speaker 1: lot more easy to understand. So if you're not sure
Speaker 1: about the signals you're getting, ask a verbal question. Um. So,
Speaker 1: consent is bigger and and needs to be practiced from
Speaker 1: when we're little kids all the way up and then
Speaker 1: safer sex. Again, it's so much bigger than how to
Speaker 1: use a condom. So one of the things I do
Speaker 1: is I ask kids, take any experience riding a bike,
Speaker 1: driving a car, jump off a roof. You know, what
Speaker 1: are all the kinds of things that can make that
Speaker 1: experience safer? You know, Protective equipment is one thing, but
Speaker 1: so is like believing you're vulnerable, reading the instructures, not
Speaker 1: feeling pressured, um, doing it with someone you trust, so
Speaker 1: that we we fill the whole, you know, whiteboard with
Speaker 1: all these different things that can make something safer, and
Speaker 1: then we say, okay, safer sex. How are all these
Speaker 1: things part of it? So I may know how to
Speaker 1: use a condom, but if I don't feel vulnerable, I
Speaker 1: might not think I need to use it. Or if
Speaker 1: I'm too freaked out to say I think we should
Speaker 1: use a condom because I don't trust the person that
Speaker 1: I'm with enough and I'm afraid they're going to reject me,
Speaker 1: then that information is not useful. So again, it's a
Speaker 1: bigger conversation, and it's a conversation that we can have
Speaker 1: in lots of different ways about lots of different things
Speaker 1: that all lead us back to how do we create
Speaker 1: an experience that leads to health and agency and openness
Speaker 1: and a positive outcome rather than a negative. How can
Speaker 1: we be and how are you being more inclusive to
Speaker 1: the l g b t Q plus youth when it
Speaker 1: comes to sex? Said? Oh, sure, in lots and lots
Speaker 1: of positive ways. I work in a school that happens
Speaker 1: to be very different. It's a very progressive school. We
Speaker 1: have lots of you know, out trans kids and out
Speaker 1: lgbt Q kids. Um, but you know, here's so here's
Speaker 1: one of the things I think you know, Um, When
Speaker 1: I pick up a sex said book, one of the
Speaker 1: things I look at is does it have a separate
Speaker 1: chapter for lgbt Q kids or are those kids integrated
Speaker 1: into every chapter? Because the book that segregates l g
Speaker 1: b t Q sexuality into its own special chapter is
Speaker 1: kind of saying you're not like everybody else, you need
Speaker 1: special instructions. I like books that actually, when they're talking
Speaker 1: about kids and sex and sexuality are always integrated, difference
Speaker 1: into it in every way, because that's showing me, oh,
Speaker 1: you know that I'm here from the get go. You're
Speaker 1: not thinking about me as an other or as a
Speaker 1: special category. I think that's the way we have to
Speaker 1: approach it. And so you know, I don't really do
Speaker 1: a unit on l g b t Q folks. Everything
Speaker 1: integrated has to be right, Everything has to be integrated.
Speaker 1: That's the best way we can do it. When parents
Speaker 1: know right, like their kid is really little and their
Speaker 1: kid might not know yet that they're gay or their
Speaker 1: trans or whatever it is in the and the parents
Speaker 1: are already feeling it, do you suggest parents bring it
Speaker 1: up or are we supposed to wait for kids to
Speaker 1: say something? You know, the only valid label is the
Speaker 1: one a person is going to give to themselves. So
Speaker 1: if a parent says, you know, honey, I know you're
Speaker 1: gay and that's okay, it doesn't mean anything unless the
Speaker 1: kid is able to say, oh, yeah, that's a label
Speaker 1: that really that I think really fits me, and then
Speaker 1: I'm ready to take on. So I just say, and
Speaker 1: this is this is true for every parent, because no
Speaker 1: parent knows ultimately the children, right, So we always just
Speaker 1: want to be um giving messages that show we are
Speaker 1: open to you being whoever you are. We think you
Speaker 1: deserve love and respect and care no matter who you
Speaker 1: are or what you are, or who you love or
Speaker 1: how you love. And we want you to know that
Speaker 1: we're always going to work really hard to support your
Speaker 1: authentic self. You know, Sexuality education really has three major goals, right, One,
Speaker 1: how do we figure out who we are most authentically?
Speaker 1: Two how do we create authentic, honest relationships? And three
Speaker 1: how do we make the world a better place? Like
Speaker 1: successful sex said does those three things. It helps people
Speaker 1: figure out who they are and how they're comfortable in
Speaker 1: their own authentic skin, and it promotes authenticity. It helps
Speaker 1: us know that relationships that are built on honesty and
Speaker 1: trust and communication and consent, and that when we're really
Speaker 1: looking at another person as a person is always going
Speaker 1: to be healthier than coming out of fear and looking
Speaker 1: at a person as an object. And that ultimately the
Speaker 1: expressions of our human sexuality should make the world more loving,
Speaker 1: more free, more open, more fair. If we can do that,
Speaker 1: we're doing really beautiful work. That's the work that I
Speaker 1: think we all want to do for all of our kids.
Speaker 1: And you know, I do it by talking about human sexuality,
Speaker 1: and other people do it by talking about other things.
Speaker 1: But I mean, I don't think you can argue with
Speaker 1: those goals. I hope you can't. Um, That's what I'm
Speaker 1: trying to do. I would like to end there, but
Speaker 1: there's one thing I have to ask about. It's really life,
Speaker 1: penis arrogance. Let's just end with some um, some penis arrogance,
Speaker 1: because it scares the shift out of me. I don't
Speaker 1: like it. I have a son. I'm scared, um, which
Speaker 1: is not how I need to be. Tell me what
Speaker 1: that is. So yeah, so penis arrogance is scary. Um.
Speaker 1: Because of sexism and patriarchy, A lot of male bodied
Speaker 1: people who identifies men grow up thinking that because they
Speaker 1: have a penis, they are entitled to all kinds of
Speaker 1: magical things in the world, that their penis gives them power,
Speaker 1: and that that power gives them the right to take
Speaker 1: what they want, have what they want, and not always
Speaker 1: be nice about it. And it is really destructive. It
Speaker 1: is really inhumane in lots of ways, and it's not
Speaker 1: good for those people who have penises or for the
Speaker 1: people they operate with. So um penis pride. Different story
Speaker 1: about penis pride. That's awesome, But you know, how do
Speaker 1: we help boys as they're growing up learn that they
Speaker 1: want to be um wary of developing this arrogance, that
Speaker 1: that is actually not making them more of a man,
Speaker 1: it's making them a worse human being. And I don't
Speaker 1: want you know, people accuse me of like wanting kids
Speaker 1: to be like feminine or will see or you know,
Speaker 1: gay or whatever, and that's not true. I love being
Speaker 1: a man. I love masculinity and manhood, but I don't
Speaker 1: think guys are entitled to be jerks. And I don't
Speaker 1: think just because I have a penis, I get to
Speaker 1: have anything I want. And I think being really upfront
Speaker 1: and sort of saying, you know, that's really arrogant, like
Speaker 1: A penis is not a lightsabe or a penis is
Speaker 1: not something magic. It's a body part, you know. And
Speaker 1: if you really want to talk about strength, you want
Speaker 1: to talk about vaginas more than penis as anyway, because
Speaker 1: and and don't even get me started on uterus, because
Speaker 1: they're even more amazingly powerful. Um. But but I do
Speaker 1: think that penis arrogance is something we need to be
Speaker 1: mindful of and watch out for. And it's all over media,
Speaker 1: and it's all over TV, and it crops up in
Speaker 1: the ways boys talk to each other, and we need
Speaker 1: to just be calling it out and basically saying you're
Speaker 1: awesome enough without that, you don't need that. You have
Speaker 1: every right to be proud of who you are, and
Speaker 1: I want you to be proud of who you are,
Speaker 1: but that pride has to exist within this larger community,
Speaker 1: and arrogance pulls us away from community. Pride puts us
Speaker 1: in community, and so we want to create more community,
Speaker 1: not move us further away from it. So that's the
Speaker 1: skinny on penis, whether or not your penis is skinny
Speaker 1: or not, exactly, al Vernacia, ladies and gentlemen, I feel
Speaker 1: the parents in your school are so lucky to have you.
Speaker 1: The kids in your school are so lucky to have you.
Speaker 1: The work that you are offering up to all of
Speaker 1: us in your book for Goodness, sex changing the way
Speaker 1: we talked to young people about sexuality, values and health. Guys,
Speaker 1: just google al Vernacio in sex education and you will
Speaker 1: go down a spiral that you will be so grateful
Speaker 1: you did. Um, and thank you so much for being
Speaker 1: on Katie's Crib and talking to our listeners. Thanks so much, Katie.
Speaker 1: I've had a great time talking with you. Thanks so much.
Speaker 1: If you guys liked what you heard, tell all your friends, subscribe,
Speaker 1: send me questions, comments, you know the deal to Katie's
Speaker 1: Crib at Shonda land dot com. And I love you
Speaker 1: all so much. And let's all help our kids lead
Speaker 1: some healthy sex lives. Huh Like, I'm all about that.
Speaker 1: Katie's Grim is a production of Shonda land Audio in
Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda
Speaker 1: land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Okay, you
Speaker 1: want