1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: We can't help but notice volumes a little bit light today, 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: and I do wonder if there's a bunch of traders 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 2: away from the desk post super Bowl blow out by 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 2: the Eagles. Of course, a super Bowl that was at 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: least in part attended by President Trump. He left early, 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 2: maybe didn't like the halftime show, Maybe it was just 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 2: for security and logistics purposes. But it wasn't so much 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: about what he actually did at the super Bowl as 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 2: the news he made around it, specifically on the plane 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 2: on Air Force One when he gave us this on 16 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: tariffs last night. 17 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 3: I'll be announcing probably Tuesday or Wednesday at a news conference, 18 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 3: reciprocal tariffs, and very simply, it's if they charge us, 19 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 3: we charged them, that's all. It'll be great for everybody, 20 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 3: including the other countries. But if they are charging us 21 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty percent and we're charging them nothing. 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 3: It's not going to say that way. We'll also be 23 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 3: announcing steel tariffs on Monday. Any steel coming into the 24 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 3: United States is going to have a twenty five percent 25 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 3: terror a little bit of two. 26 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 4: All right, that's a lot to unpack there, which we're 27 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 4: going to do in a moment with and the current. 28 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 5: Did you see the map behind him if you. 29 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 4: Were with us on on Bloomberg TV or on YouTube. 30 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 4: He actually gathered everyone there to talk about to cover 31 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 4: what he said was a very more important moment. I 32 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 4: think even than the super Bowl, which was Gulf of 33 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 4: America Day. He made it a holiday instead of the 34 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 4: Gulf of Mexico. That was as they were flying over 35 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 4: for an important moment. There have the whole map on 36 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 4: the easel. That's not again what we're here to talk 37 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 4: about today, and occurrent covers the economy for us here 38 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 4: with his eyes on the global economy and with us 39 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 4: now at the table here we are again asking you 40 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 4: about tariffs, and we don't know exactly where this is going. 41 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 4: And I want to kind of pick apart what President 42 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 4: Trump just said. There reciprocal tariffs one thing, steal and 43 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 4: aluminum another. It could could end up scooping up a 44 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 4: lot of countries in this action or will it Will 45 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 4: there be exemptions when the president emerges a short time 46 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 4: from now. 47 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,399 Speaker 6: Well, on paper, you're talking about key trading partners, yes, 48 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 6: candidate creators. There's India as well, of course when it 49 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 6: comes to a security alliance, and also obviously those European nations. 50 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 6: So does go into the world of you know, is 51 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 6: this competitive trade against a China or our allies being 52 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 6: scooped up In the same book at we'll have city 53 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 6: details gel in terms of when it gets them commended 54 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 6: in Highland? Will there be exemptions? The reciprocal trade point, 55 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 6: that's more technical and more complicated. Again we lead to 56 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 6: the details, but as the President said, most trade experts 57 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 6: this morning, we're saying, it's effectively, if the US sells 58 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 6: goods to someone and they say, have a temperacent tariff 59 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 6: for those goods and you only has a two percent 60 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 6: tar if coming the other way around, well that's going 61 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 6: to be leveled up. That's the thinking. But the interesting 62 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 6: subplot coming out of that is people saying, maybe this 63 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 6: is what the President's going to do instead of the 64 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 6: universal tarff. Remember he had the idea of the universal 65 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 6: turf of ten percent on everyone sure letters saying maybe 66 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 6: he's going to go to this reciprocal way and do 67 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 6: that instead of the universal. 68 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: So is that how we make sense of the market's 69 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 2: lack of real reaction, if you will ender or is 70 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: this they're just waiting until something is final before trading 71 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 2: on it, given our experience for the last two consecutive. 72 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 6: Weeks, certainly waiting to see when it's a signed off 73 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 6: and actually in action for sure. You know, the steel 74 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 6: tariffs on their own are considered to be a game 75 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 6: changer for either the US economy or the said, the 76 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 6: Canadian economy. The Canadian the economy is involved in the 77 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 6: world economy individually, maybe car companies and steal companies of 78 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 6: coursal feeling impact, but in the bigger macro picture, the 79 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 6: bigger focus remains on the broader trade policy, not just 80 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 6: on these specific steel terrifts. 81 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 5: This is, in fact an opening gambit. 82 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 4: The last one took about twenty four hours, right, and 83 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 4: Donald Trump ends up on the phone with the leaders 84 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 4: of Canada, Mexico, many of the same players, with many 85 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,119 Speaker 4: more this time around. Whether that moves the needle, He's 86 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 4: got his eyes on the EU coming up next, will 87 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 4: will there be additional tariffs beyond steel and aluminum When 88 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 4: it comes to EU. 89 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 6: Members, well, all of the signaling and messaging the President 90 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 6: has given is that yes, the EU's in is in 91 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 6: for a sweep of the broom here as well. It's 92 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 6: not just going to be steel. He's talking about ottos 93 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 6: for example, the fact that unequal access to their markets. 94 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 6: It's going to be food. I suspect it'll be across 95 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 6: the board when it comes to EU. He has carved 96 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 6: at the UK from that at times, making the point 97 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 6: that their trade is doing okay, but there are other 98 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,239 Speaker 6: areas he wants to balance the books with the EU. 99 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 6: But you know, remember this idea about negotiating tools and 100 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 6: the like is there. But there was also an expectation 101 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 6: of perhaps the tariffs retaliation tariffs that China has put 102 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 6: on US goods wouldn't go into effect, that both leaders 103 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 6: would talk, Yeah, that didn't happen. Those tariffs went into 104 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 6: effect today on US goods going to going to China. 105 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: So obviously a lot when it comes to tariffs remains uncertain, 106 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: which does make me wonder tomorrow and Wednesday, when we 107 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: see the chair of the Federal Reserve testifying before the 108 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: Senate Banking Committee and House Financial Services Committee, undoubtedly going 109 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: to face questions about this. I guess it would be 110 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: kind of easy for him to punt and say, the 111 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: policy is unclear, so I cannot tell you how it's 112 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: going to dictate our monetary policy decisions at this point. 113 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 6: Yeah, he, I mean, he obviously can legitimately, to some extense, 114 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 6: say hang on until early days here. But you know, 115 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 6: as I was just saying about the Chana harffs, some 116 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 6: of this stuff is now actually happening. It's not just 117 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 6: all threatned negotiation gets called off. The Chana tariffs are 118 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 6: on both ways US and China goods, Chana and US goods. 119 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 6: That's happening. The deportations are happening, The fiscal spending and 120 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 6: the federal staff cuts are happening. So the Fed charm 121 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 6: will have to start giving a nod that this is 122 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 6: now happening and here's how we're thinking about it. Yes, 123 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 6: he can say for sure how it's going to impact 124 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 6: the economy, but I don't think he can just say 125 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 6: early days, let's wait and see what the policies are. 126 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: All right, and the current covering the economy and tariffs 127 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: for US here at Bloomberg. Obviously, much still uncertain as 128 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: far as this goes. And again, Donald Trump is expected 129 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 2: to be signing executive orders in the Oval Office. It 130 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: was scheduled to begin about eight minutes ago. Hasn't yet, 131 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,239 Speaker 2: but I would imagine we're going to get some news 132 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: on this front. 133 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, Dip Bartow's into that event. Of course. 134 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,679 Speaker 4: Donald Trump has been kind of talking to the press 135 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 4: pool in a way that presidents haven't in the past. 136 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 4: Usually this collection of reporters, one representing each platform or 137 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 4: each medium, will kind of stand in the corner of 138 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 4: the room. Maybe they shout a couple of questions. Usually 139 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 4: they're whisked out. He's turned into full blown conversations that 140 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 4: takes some time. 141 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, they go on for quite a while, sometimes thirty 142 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: minutes or more, answering a wide range of questions. And 143 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,119 Speaker 2: I would imagine he's going to get some today as well. 144 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 2: On DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency and Efforts underway 145 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: two unwined portions of the US government. It started with USAID, 146 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 2: it has now moved to the CFPB, and someone who's 147 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: very familiar with that particular agency is joining US now. 148 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 2: Mulvaney here with us on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Former 149 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 2: acting White House Chief of Staff, former OMB director of course, 150 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 2: former Republican Congressman from South Carolina Mick. During your tenure 151 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: in the first administration, CFPB came under your charge. Now 152 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: that RUSS vote has essentially said to tell the agency 153 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: to stop work at least for this week, no one's 154 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: getting access to the building. It does seem that this 155 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: is intended to be a kind of full freeze on 156 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: the operations of this regulator. How are you watching this 157 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: go down. 158 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 7: With a great deal of joy? Is that the right 159 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 7: answer to that question. Look, I also understand that he 160 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 7: either today or is preparing today to request zero dollars 161 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 7: for the funding of the Bureau in the upcoming quarter, 162 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 7: the same thing that we did when we first got there. 163 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 7: By the way, he's able to do that because he 164 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 7: found out there was a seven hundred million dollars slush 165 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 7: fund in the accounts that was only one hundred and 166 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 7: seventy million when I was there, So clearly rohich Chopra 167 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 7: had been running up the draw down in anticipation of 168 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 7: not getting any more money. So anyway, no, it's very aggressive. 169 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 7: I love it. We thought we could do this. In 170 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 7: the first we floated this to the White House lawyers. 171 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 7: They said that there were other priorities at the time, 172 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 7: so we didn't try this. I'm glad to see they're 173 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 7: they're actually giving it a shot. 174 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 5: So Mike us great to have you back. 175 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 4: There are going to be people listening to this conversation 176 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 4: and watching this on Bloomberg TV, listening on the radio 177 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 4: who don't have the experience with this agency that you have. 178 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 4: The idea of consumer advocates in government, I'm assuming, by principle, 179 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 4: are not your issue. What is it about the way 180 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 4: this agency was constructed and operated that makes it so 181 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 4: toxic to you? 182 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 7: Look, if I want to give Elizabeth Warren credit for anything, 183 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 7: I thought the idea, the premise, at least the stated premise, 184 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 7: was a good one, which is to take all of 185 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 7: the consumer protection elements out of the other financial regulators 186 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 7: and consolidate them in one place, so it's a one 187 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 7: stop shop for consumer protection. We didn't do that. What 188 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 7: we did instead is just simply layer another level of 189 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 7: regulation on top of the stuff that was already there 190 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 7: and became duplicative in many ways. Then, in large part 191 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 7: because of the way this entity is funded. This entity 192 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 7: is funded directly from the Federal Reserve, not from Congress. 193 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 7: It sort of felt like it didn't answer to Congress 194 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 7: and they were able to do whatever the leadership wanted, 195 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 7: and during progressive leadership, they did things that I believed 196 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 7: were against the law. I'll give you a specific example. 197 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 7: Dodd Frank, which creates CFPB, specifically says that CFPB has 198 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 7: no jurisdiction over automotive dealerships. But under Richard Cordrat they 199 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 7: went after The bureau went after automobile dealerships anyway, despite 200 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 7: the law. There's lots of examples like that. So I 201 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 7: think it was a renegade agency. I think that they're 202 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 7: having the right discussion down and sort of say, look, 203 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 7: let's shut the doors, figure out what's going on. They're 204 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 7: still paying everybody, they can't fire anybody, to stry to 205 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 7: see if they're actually serving their statutory purpose. 206 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: Well, make you made an important point there about the 207 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: funding structure. That this is funded through the Federal Reserve. 208 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: It's not money appropriated by Congress, even if the agency 209 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: itself was authorized via an Act of Congress. So is 210 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: there a distinction you draw here between these efforts at 211 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: the CFPB and what's going on, for example, at USAID, 212 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: which is run into problems in courts because that is 213 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: congressionally appropriated money that they're trying not to spend. 214 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 7: It's a great point, Kayleye. And what I tell people 215 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 7: is that you know this. When Liz Warren created this 216 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 7: agency when she was a Harvard professor, she druamed up 217 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 7: the idea. She wanted something in her mind that was 218 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 7: above politics. Consumer protection in her mind, was too important 219 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 7: to trust to elected officials, and you had to have 220 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 7: this dedicated funding source so that the funding couldn't get 221 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 7: turned on or off depending upon who was in Congress. 222 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 7: She did that. The double edged sword of that is 223 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 7: that when ro Hitchopra's running the place and Congress wants 224 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 7: to shut them down, he can sort of go and 225 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 7: get his money without having to worry about what Congress thinks. 226 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 7: But the other side of the sword is if Russ 227 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 7: Vote is running the place and he doesn't want to 228 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 7: draw any money down from the Fed, he doesn't have to. 229 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 7: So even if Congress wants him to spend money, he's 230 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 7: really a benevolent dictator on his own over the CFPB. 231 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 7: And so you're seeing the other side of this equation 232 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 7: when he says, look, I'm not drawing any money, I'm 233 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 7: not going to spend any you know, what's your next 234 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 7: move in the court system? 235 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 4: Funding, of course, is one thing make if you wanted 236 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 4: to eliminate the agency, would you need congressional approval for that? 237 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 4: And will Donald Trump essentially just zero out, as you said, 238 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 4: the budget and let it sit there and whether or 239 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 4: does it does it need to be closed with the 240 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 4: authority of Congress. 241 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 7: This this is this is this is a this is 242 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 7: a this is what we struggled with. I did not 243 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 7: believe that as the director, I had the right to 244 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 7: shutter the place. I thought the President probably had the 245 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 7: right to tell me to shut the place. My guess 246 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 7: is that's what's that's what they're doing this time. If 247 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 7: you really wanted to, you know, uh, acts the thing 248 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 7: entirely to make it cease to be that would take 249 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 7: an Act of Congress. But I think it's up to 250 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 7: the President and the director again as this quasi benevolent dictator, 251 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 7: to determine the scope of what the agency the Bureau does, 252 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 7: and that could be a really really really broad scrope 253 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 7: spope like under Richard Cordray or Hitchopra or very very 254 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 7: narrow under myself, Kathy Craninger and now russbot. 255 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: Well, I do wonder where this would come down on 256 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 2: the congressional priorities list, Mick, considering the legislative priorities of 257 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: the president, tax policy, energy and border policy, trying to 258 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 2: get it all through the budget reconciliation process doesn't seem 259 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 2: like it's making much progress forward, at least in the House. 260 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 2: Mike Johnson had suggested we could see a budget mark 261 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 2: up this week. Now he's suggesting maybe it won't be 262 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 2: on that timeline. Lindsey Graham is trying to move first 263 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 2: in the Senate. How do you ultimately see this going down? 264 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: Is it going to be two bills instead of one? 265 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's going to be whatever it takes to pass. 266 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 7: And I think this focus on one bill versus two bills. 267 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 7: Of course, I think President Trump had it right. He 268 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 7: came out and said he wanted one big, beautiful bill 269 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 7: and then the next day said I don't really care 270 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 7: as long as it passes. 271 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: And I think that's what well, But I guess the 272 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: question then, Mick, is can two bills pass this House 273 00:12:58,400 --> 00:12:59,359 Speaker 2: of Representatives? 274 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 7: The better questions can one pass? So I mean, take 275 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 7: the simplest way it's gonna work. You know this, You've 276 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 7: been around long enough to do it. You're gonna you're gonna 277 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 7: have five or six ideas. You're gonna have taxes, you're 278 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 7: gonna have immigration, you're gonna have deregulation, a bunch of stuff, 279 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 7: and you're gonna sort of throw them together and say, Okay, 280 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 7: if we add one more thing, do we gain net 281 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 7: votes or do we lose net votes? And they're gonna 282 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 7: keep adding and subtracting different big pieces of the puzzle 283 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 7: until they figure out a way to get a majority 284 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 7: plus one in the in the state, in the House. 285 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 7: That's the way this is gonna shake out. Honestly, it's 286 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 7: gonna be hard to pass anything, it really really is. 287 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 7: There's gonna be there's deep divisions with the Republican Party 288 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 7: about how much money they want to save other folks 289 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 7: just want to spend it, and what the priorities are 290 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 7: between immigration, taxes, et cetera. It's going to be very, 291 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 7: very difficult. With the margin of what are they down 292 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 7: to this week? I think two, maybe one, depending on 293 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 7: who got confirmed in the last forty eight hours, it's 294 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 7: gonna be hard to pass anything. That's why I say 295 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 7: look to the Senate, because I think they're probably start 296 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 7: driving this discussion on that side of the building. 297 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 4: Wouldn't be the first time that happened, Mick, and it's 298 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 4: not the first time that we're hearing threats of a 299 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 4: government shut down. I've only got a minute left here, 300 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 4: but both senators from New Jersey went on Sunday morning 301 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 4: television to threaten a government shutdown. We're going to run 302 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 4: out of money on March fourteenth in protest of what 303 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 4: the Doge is doing and what the administration is doing 304 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 4: to gut, in their words, federal agencies. Is this finally 305 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 4: it we shut down in March? 306 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 7: You know, you forget that. I was the one who 307 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 7: tried to coin the term shoeer shutdown back a couple 308 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 7: of years ago. It didn't stick at the time. But 309 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 7: if they want to try and do this, that's fine. Look, 310 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 7: if the Democrats want to go to the mat because 311 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 7: of doughe we welcome that as Republicans. Even if Elon 312 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 7: Musk is not popular individually, the stuff he's turning up 313 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 7: is solid gold material for us for midterm elections. For 314 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 7: presidential elections. People don't like what they're learning about how 315 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 7: their money is being spent at USAID, and I don't 316 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 7: care if they you're progressive or conservative for the most part. 317 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 7: So yeah, let's have that discussion. If the Democrats want 318 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 7: to want to go to the mat on this one, 319 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 7: I think the Republicans would welcome it from home. 320 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 5: I think that was a bring it up. 321 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, sounded like Reilly make It's good to see if 322 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 4: Mick Mulvaney back with US former acting White House Chief 323 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 4: of Staff, longest business card in Washington. I'm Joe Matthew 324 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 4: alongside Kaylee Lines. This is Bloomberg. 325 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 326 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, 327 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: Cockley and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You 328 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 329 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 330 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 2: The nation's capital, the seat of all three branches of 331 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: the US government, the executive, legislative, and judicial. Sometimes they 332 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 2: work together, other times they check and balance each other 333 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 2: as designed by the Constitution. And certainly we've seen the 334 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: judicial branch specifically acting on a check so far of 335 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: this administration in many ways. Judges blocking Donald Trump's executive 336 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: order ending birthrates citizenship, blocking this weekend, doge access to 337 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: the Treasury payment system, blocking efforts to put thousands of 338 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: employees at USAID on leave. And none of that seems 339 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 2: to be sitting too well with the Vice President of 340 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: the United States, who we should note is a Yale 341 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: educated attorney. He said on x this weekend. If a 342 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: judge tried to tell a general how to conduct a 343 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: military operation, that would be illegal. If a judge tried 344 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: to command the attorney general and how to use her 345 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: discretion as a prosecutor, that's also illegal. Judges aren't allowed 346 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 2: to control the executive's legitimate power. 347 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 4: It's like a dystopian schoolhouse rock you just put together 348 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 4: there here in the seat of power. Yeah, District Judge 349 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 4: Paul Engelmeyer, New York, an Obama appointee, this is really 350 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 4: playing back like eight years ago, right, eighteen nineteen. In fact, 351 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 4: democratic state attorneys general start this up. Then you have 352 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 4: the ruling from the judge who says there's some merit 353 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 4: to the state's arguments that the administration has crossed legal 354 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 4: boundaries here and goes back to giving access to sensitive 355 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 4: Treasury data to the Doge. You've got people walking around 356 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 4: inside this agency wearing T shirts and jackets that look 357 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 4: exactly like Elon Musk. There's something to behold here, and 358 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 4: this like a dress code at the Doge. It's a 359 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 4: whole different story that we're talking about, and our panel 360 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 4: surely has thoughts on this as we wait to hear 361 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 4: from Donald Trump in the Oval Office. Genie Shanzano is 362 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 4: with us our Democratic analyst and political science professor at 363 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 4: Iona University, Ashley Davis, Republican strategist, and I want to 364 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 4: get this right now. S three group, where Ashley is 365 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 4: a new partner. It's great to see both of you here. Genie, 366 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 4: I'm not sure your thoughts on this because it doesn't 367 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 4: seem to be Congress on the front lines of fighting 368 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 4: this battle. Will this all be decided in the courts? 369 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 8: You know it might. 370 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 9: Joe, You've forgot to mention their backpacks. A lot of 371 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 9: focus on the DOGE lads black backpacks along their attire, 372 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 9: So we'll add that to the mix. You know, there's 373 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 9: really three buckets that would check the executive and obviously 374 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 9: it's the first branch, which at least as of yet 375 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 9: hasn't stepped up, the third branch, which just really started 376 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 9: stepping up in concert this weekend, and then also the 377 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 9: voters themselves, and we may see that down the road, 378 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 9: but certainly haven't seen that yet. So at this point 379 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 9: it does look like the courts and what we're hearing 380 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 9: jd Vance. As Kaylee said, you know this a lawyer 381 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 9: by training with the best education. He's mimicking something that 382 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 9: Andrew Jackson said back in the eighteen thirties. You know, 383 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 9: John Marshall, you want to make your decision, now you 384 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 9: can enforce it. And of course that's what we've known 385 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 9: since the founding, is that the Court has zero ability 386 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 9: to enforce its ruling. It depends on the executive to 387 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 9: do that. And so this sets up a constitutional clash. 388 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 9: We've seen it before, and it sounds like rhetorically, it's 389 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 9: something they may be banking on seeing again out of 390 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 9: the executive branch. 391 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an excellent point, Ashley. It is the president 392 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 2: who is the enforcer of laws. The executive branch. It 393 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 2: is the judicial branch that is the interpreter of law 394 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: and whether law is consistent with the US Constitution. So 395 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 2: when jd. Vance says judges aren't allowed to control the 396 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 2: executive's legitimate power, isn't it up to them to determine 397 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 2: what legitimate power the executive actually has? 398 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 10: Yes, And I think that you're going to see a 399 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 10: lot of different legal cases on this. And also, just 400 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 10: as we were talking earlier, this is one of the 401 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 10: only mechanisms that the Democrats have, especially with their Democrat 402 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 10: appointed judges or elected judges for some that to kind 403 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 10: of stop this train that is like going down the 404 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 10: tracks as fast as it can. I think that one 405 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 10: of the main things that everyone needs to remember is 406 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 10: that I don't know if the Trump administration cares, if 407 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 10: the courts continued to do this. They're going to move 408 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 10: as fast as they can, put things in place as 409 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 10: much as they can, and just let it bride out 410 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 10: in the courts, and it's going to take years and 411 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 10: years and years. By all this time and all this 412 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 10: stuff is appealed, So I just don't know. I think again, 413 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 10: if I was a Democrat, I would be using this 414 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 10: one hundred percent. I just don't know how impactful it's 415 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 10: going to be. Besides some of these delays We're. 416 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 4: Just talking about this with Nick Mulvaney, Genie. Some Democrats 417 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 4: are preparing to act, and look no further than the 418 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 4: two senators from New Jersey, Corey Booker and Andy Kim 419 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 4: split up and went on different Sunday morning shows to 420 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 4: threaten a government shutdown to protest Donald Trump's gutting of 421 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 4: federal agencies. Mick Mulvaney, when we pose this idea to him, 422 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 4: basically said, make my day. Donald Trump is finding solid gold. 423 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 4: Are the words that he used in making the case 424 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 4: line by line as to why an agency like USAID 425 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 4: should be defunded or at least thought. Is that smart 426 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 4: politics to hold up a government funding bill over this? 427 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 10: Yeah? 428 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 9: I mean part of the problem here you nailed at, Joe, 429 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 9: is that the Democrats are all over the map. You've 430 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 9: got some who are really standing up. I think of 431 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 9: the senator from Connecticut, you know, hair on fire. We've 432 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 9: got to do everything we can to stop this. And 433 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 9: you've got more raquel centrends, say Jakim Jeffries having to 434 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 9: lead the group in the House. So they Democrats have 435 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 9: to get it together on this. You know something I 436 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 9: say all the time is yes, you can use the 437 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 9: courts to try to stop political movement forward. But it 438 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 9: is a political disaster. We saw that in the twenty 439 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 9: twenty four election. Democrats, to the point that was just made, 440 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 9: have a habit of doing this. It is not advised. 441 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 9: If you want to win politically in this country, you 442 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 9: have to appeal to the hearts and minds of the 443 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 9: American voters, not unelected judges in courts. So the first 444 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 9: piece of advice, and the second is holding up the 445 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 9: government and shutting it down. That should be on the 446 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 9: Republicans because they are in control. But Democrats have got 447 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 9: to get it together and not let the mcmontaneys of 448 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 9: the world. Quite frankly, he's very good at this saying 449 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 9: that it's a Schumer shutdown, because again, politically, that's a 450 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 9: loser for them. So Democrats have a lot of work 451 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 9: to do on this score. But there are a lot 452 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 9: of solid arguments for them to make on this and 453 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 9: they just have to get together and make those. And 454 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 9: what we saw the other weekend, quite frankly at the 455 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 9: DNC meeting them talking about transgender issues, all these things. 456 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 9: They are far afield from where they need to be 457 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 9: talking to the American public. So they have some work 458 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 9: to do on this front. 459 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 2: Well, on the notion of a Schumer shutdown or a 460 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 2: Democratic shutdown, Ashley that that is the party that would 461 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 2: get the blame. How does that work when Republicans are 462 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 2: the ones who are in control of both the White 463 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: House and Congress. Would they not shoulder any of the 464 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: blame if this happens in mid March? 465 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean you would think. I would think so. 466 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 10: I actually was having this conversation over the weekend, and 467 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 10: how how do the Republicans and Democrats kind of win 468 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 10: the pr message? Which is a horrible thing to say 469 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 10: if we all think about it, if this is how 470 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 10: we're running our country. But I because Republicans are in 471 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 10: control of all three ranches, this should be one hundred 472 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 10: percent down around their neck in regards to responsibility. However, 473 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 10: if the Democrats don't at least look like they're coming 474 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 10: to the table to negotiate, and then they just can't 475 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 10: agree to the government funding numbers based on difference in policies, 476 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 10: then it's really hard. 477 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 7: For Republicans to blame it on them. 478 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 10: If they sit back and just say, you know what, 479 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 10: I'm mad because USAID funding is going away or whatever. 480 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 10: That's not going to work. And you know, Trump's a 481 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 10: brilliant messenger, and he'll start trying to make this all 482 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 10: their faults. So I do think they're going to have 483 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 10: to split that balance of negotiation, at least looking like 484 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 10: they are. 485 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 4: Senator Andy Kim on NBC Genie, I would be the 486 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 4: last person to want to get to that stage referring 487 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 4: to a shutdown, But we're at a point where we're 488 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 4: basically on the cusp of a constitutional crisis. Is that 489 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 4: how you look at this and is that the way 490 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 4: Democrats should be framing it? 491 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 9: You know, that is what they're hearing from their base. 492 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 9: I mean what we're hearing. The calls coming into these 493 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 9: offices are coming fast and furious, and you know, we 494 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 9: are only three weeks in. But wait until people start 495 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 9: to feel on the ground the impact of these kinds 496 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 9: of actions by the executive branch, and even Republicans in 497 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,239 Speaker 9: the House and Senate are going to feel it. You know, 498 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 9: we had a Christy Gnome on Sunday saying she would 499 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 9: advise the President to shut down FEMA is the way 500 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 9: it exists now that impacts people on the ground. It's 501 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 9: going to take a while, but it impacts people on 502 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 9: the ground, and you can bet their senators and representatives 503 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 9: will hear that. 504 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 3: Well. 505 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 9: The Andy Kims of the world, the Chris Murphys of 506 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 9: the world, they are already hearing from their constituents. And 507 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 9: that's why they are talking in this way. And it's 508 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 9: not just voters. You know. If we go back to 509 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 9: the CFPB Elon Musk has talked about wanting a payments 510 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 9: and commerce platform. What about the other companies that he 511 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 9: now has an advantage over because he presumably has got 512 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 9: proprietary information about those companies now having been in there 513 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 9: all weekend before the judge shut that down. There are 514 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 9: also going to be companies that say, hey, wait a minute, 515 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 9: the executive has gone too far, and that is what 516 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 9: is going to turn this around. I'm not sure that 517 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 9: it works for Democrats to keep crying, you know, crisis, crisis, crisis, 518 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 9: but they do have to talk to people about what 519 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 9: they're feeling on the ground, and there will be real 520 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 9: impacts to all this action eventually. 521 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 2: Is this something that is going to be felt beyond 522 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 2: the beltwagh Ashley, or at least outside of the bubble 523 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 2: here in Washington. I do wonder it's hard to see 524 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: outside the bubble sometimes if this is actually very insular 525 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 2: conversation that most of America may not be paying that 526 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 2: much attention to. 527 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,719 Speaker 10: Frankly, I completely agree with you. I mean, I wonder 528 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 10: how many people in North Dakota even understand what USAIDA 529 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 10: is or doges or whatever I mean, or paying attention 530 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 10: to it, because what they are worried about is the 531 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 10: price of their eggs, or the price of their rent 532 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 10: or everyday expenses. And so this question was asked yesterday 533 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 10: to the President as well, is where are we on that? So, yes, 534 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 10: he is doing things fast and furious and things that 535 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 10: he said he would do on the campaign trail that 536 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 10: you know, isn't that surprising. I think the speed that 537 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 10: he's doing it is what's maybe surprising people. However, I 538 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 10: think that if I were the Democrats, I would be 539 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 10: concentrating on the price of some of these groceries and 540 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 10: things like that. Instead of saying this guy has fallen 541 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 10: as these words, I'm saying this like this guy is 542 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 10: falling on every single topic. 543 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 2: So maybe just more about egg prisis Ashley Davis s 544 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 2: and Genie Shanzano our political panel on this Monday. Thank 545 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 2: you so much for joining us. We'll have more Balance 546 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 2: of Power straight ahead here on Bloomberg TV and radio. 547 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 548 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, 549 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: Cockley and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen 550 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us 551 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: live on YouTube. 552 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 4: As we stand by for news at the White House, 553 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 4: President Trump is expected to be signing some executive orders 554 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 4: that had been scheduled well for forty two minutes ago. 555 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 5: He still has not emerged. 556 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 4: The press pool is standing by from what we understand, 557 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 4: and this is important because we're anticipating some news on 558 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 4: tariffs twenty five percent tariffs as you've been hearing today 559 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 4: and seeing on Blue Umberg against steel and aluminum imports. 560 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 4: There are huge questions, Kayley, about whether there will be 561 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 4: some countries exempted from this, like say Canada, whether China 562 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 4: will in fact be double tariff. All that will presumably 563 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 4: be made clear a little bit later on. He tends 564 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 4: to have kind of the rolling news conference while he's 565 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 4: signing with the Sharpie. 566 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 2: Well, and he indicated this may not be the only 567 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 2: tariff related announcement he makes this week. Is reciprocal tariffs, 568 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: that's right, maybe announced Tuesday or Wednesday, he told reporters 569 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 2: aboard Air Force One last night. And it's unclear how 570 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 2: wide and scope those will be either. We have a 571 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: lot of outstanding questions regarding tariff policy that we do know, 572 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 2: of course, that ten percent tariffs on Chinese goods are 573 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 2: already in place in the retaliatory measures from China on 574 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: US imports to that country have kicked in as well. 575 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: So we want to discuss the net effect of all 576 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 2: of this and go now live to Capitol Hill, where 577 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: Democratic Congressman Haley Stevens of Michigan is joining us back 578 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: with us on balance of Power. Welcome back to Bloomberg 579 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 2: TV and Radio. Congresswoman, when you consider your district in 580 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 2: Michigan and not just the tariffs that are in place, 581 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: but the threat of tariffs going into place and potentially 582 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: affecting costs that your constituents are facing, what are you 583 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: hearing about this, What impact are you bracing for? 584 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 11: Well, I think it's very important to bring the American 585 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 11: worker to the table on these decisions, and we all 586 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 11: know that select tariffs can be utilized for the strength 587 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 11: of the American economy, to bolster the pocketbook of the 588 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 11: American worker and to strengthen our supply chain. And we've 589 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 11: seen previous administrations used tariffs. What we've lived through in 590 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 11: the last couple of weeks, though, has been without the 591 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 11: buy in, and certainly those of us on Capitol Hill, 592 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 11: we're just waiting to hear if we have a White 593 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 11: House liaison over there at sixteen hundred Pennsylvania Avenue. I 594 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 11: had some constituents from Michigan in town last week and 595 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 11: we went to go log on to the White House 596 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 11: and see if we could get them a tour. And 597 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 11: they don't even have the portal open for members of 598 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 11: Congress to give our constituents tours of the White House. 599 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 11: So in terms of what they're going to put forward 600 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 11: with all these executive orders and how we're going to 601 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 11: work together, we want to be at the table for 602 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 11: our constituents. We're certainly taking a lot of cues from 603 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 11: those who've been in the trenches, like the United Auto Workers, 604 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 11: certainly the United steel Workers and the like. And we 605 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 11: know that other rounds of tariffs got worked out, but 606 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 11: our supply chain, and particularly our automotive sector, it's complex. 607 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 11: They need certainty and they don't need this pendulum swinging 608 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 11: from one minute, we're going to see twenty five percent 609 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 11: tariffs on Canada and Mexico. Oops, that get scaled back 610 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 11: or whatever. We got out of that, and then you 611 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 11: see what's going on with China. Maybe that does have 612 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 11: some outcome for us, but we just need to know, 613 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 11: we need to know, and we need some time to 614 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 11: work this all out, and we're waiting on the administration 615 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 11: to do that for us as well. 616 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 5: Well. Congress Swiman, welcome back. 617 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 4: I want to bring it back to your time as 618 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 4: an employee of the Treasury Department. You were chief of 619 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 4: staff on the Auto Task Force, which we talk about 620 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 4: a lot responsible for returning the auto industry to stability 621 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 4: and preserving auto jobs back in the Obama administration. 622 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 5: You know what it's like to be in that building, 623 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 5: and you. 624 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 4: Also know what it's like, as you said, to go 625 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 4: through this complex series of stages to build a car 626 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 4: in a place like Michigan, crossing the border back and 627 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 4: forth between Michigan and Canada multiple times at various stages 628 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 4: of assembly. That's not going to live through a twenty 629 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 4: five percent tariff if that ends up being the case. 630 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 4: Donald Trump's got I realized a couple of months left 631 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 4: to figure that out. When you talk about Canadian and 632 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 4: Mexican tariffs to car companies, now while they have the chance, 633 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 4: need to start rethinking the way they produce these vehicles. 634 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 11: Well, I really appreciate you bringing up my time at 635 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 11: the Treasury Department during President Obama's first term, because it 636 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 11: was such a special time. It was a tough time. 637 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 11: It was a very challenging time, but what made it 638 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 11: special is that people came together for the betterment of 639 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 11: our nation and our economy. The Bush administration officials, they 640 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 11: stayed on a lot of them at the Treasury Department, 641 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 11: they worked with those of us in the Obama administration. 642 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 11: We set up a nonpartisan team to rescue General Motors 643 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 11: and Chrysler and two hundred thousand Michigan jobs. And certainly 644 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 11: we weren't putting an Elon Musk in charge of the 645 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 11: wires to spook everyone that he has access to your data. 646 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 11: Which is also why last week, alongside our House Democratic 647 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 11: Leader Haikeen Jeffries, I introduced the Taxpayer Data Protection Act. Now, 648 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 11: you asked a very important question about what do our 649 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 11: automakers need and certainly their views and their declarations has 650 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 11: proven original equipment manufacturer are going to matter a whole 651 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 11: heck of a lot here. But I also know they 652 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 11: don't want to pick a big fight with the administration 653 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 11: out of the get, which is why I'm taking my 654 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 11: expertise as a member of Congress, as a representative from 655 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 11: Oakland County, Michigan, where we've got automation Alley and a 656 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 11: lot of suppliers and stillanis headquartered, and certainly you know 657 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 11: that strong affiliation with Ford and General Motors. And we're saying, 658 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 11: wait a minute, guys, give us a minute here. We've 659 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 11: got this USMCA framework. Why don't we use that. We're 660 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 11: going into a review period. We're going to race against 661 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 11: China with these rare earth minerals. I'm working on legislation 662 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 11: for that too. Maybe we could do something along the 663 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 11: industrial policy lines like we did with the Chips and 664 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 11: Science Act, which by the way, has worked for the 665 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 11: American taxpayer, has worked for the manufacturing economy, and so 666 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 11: those might be some other things that we could consider 667 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 11: together both branches of government, as our founders intended. 668 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: Well at Congressman, I'm glad you raised the legislation that 669 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 2: you introduced last week to rein in the ability of 670 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: Elon Muskin those working for the dogs to access taxpayer information. 671 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 2: I do wonder, though, if you really think there is 672 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 2: appetite for that in your chamber, specifically if you're expecting 673 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 2: Republican buy into this, or if ultimately it's going to 674 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 2: be left up to the courts after a judge over 675 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 2: the weekend, did indeed at least temporarily block access to 676 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 2: these systems. 677 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 11: Well, certainly as someone who's not afraid to work in 678 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 11: a bipartisan way, I'm not here to play gimmicks. And 679 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 11: I'd say to my fellow House members on the other 680 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 11: side of the Okaylee, Hey, come on over right. I mean, 681 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 11: think about the authority that we're seeding to the Executive 682 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 11: Office when we also need to insert ourselves. And part 683 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 11: of how we've gotten into these challenges with our debt 684 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 11: and our deficit is that we also need to do 685 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 11: a better job of doing our job as members of Congress. 686 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 11: And that means taking hold of our authority. That means 687 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 11: utilizing the led powers before us, and it's not necessarily 688 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 11: to I mean, I'm looking at it as I'm a 689 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 11: citizen and an elected official who's concerned about what Elon 690 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 11: Musk is doing at the Treasury Department. A little bit 691 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 11: of transparency here would go a long way. And I 692 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 11: understand the presidents doing his press conferences and he is 693 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 11: answering questions, but we really haven't gotten an answer as 694 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 11: to what the heck they're doing in the Bureau of 695 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 11: Fiscal Service, which I never had access to as a 696 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 11: White House appointee in a schedule see role. Why does 697 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 11: Elon Musk, who doesn't even have a top security clearance 698 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 11: and these conflicts of interest? And I just say that 699 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 11: with all due respect, you have to understand elected officials, 700 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 11: executive branch, legislative branch. We hold the public trust. Let's 701 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 11: continue to build it. And that's also what we're seeing 702 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 11: that the legislation can do. I'm here, I love our country. 703 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 11: I want to work with our country. I want to 704 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 11: deliver for the taxpayer. I want to deliver for our 705 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 11: economy and with that, hardworking Americans and those who've retired 706 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 11: and those who are trying to raise their kids. 707 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 4: Right now, well, let's get to it here, congresswoman, because 708 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 4: when you introduced that legislation, you wrote in your statement. 709 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 4: It begs the question, what exactly is he referring to 710 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 4: Elon Musk? What is he trying to accomplish research on 711 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 4: his opponents? You asked stopping payments on Americans earned benefits 712 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 4: like Social Security and Medicare? Is there something that you 713 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 4: know about here, Congresswoman, that would indicate any of these 714 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 4: are happening. 715 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 11: We don't know those answers, And I will tell you 716 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 11: it's just what I'm hearing from concerned citizens, Joe. It 717 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,760 Speaker 11: really is the level of nerves that I have gotten 718 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 11: from people back home in Oakland County, Michigan. It is 719 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 11: really palpable. And I say that because I'm just trying 720 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 11: to do my darnness as a representative and a purveyor 721 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 11: of the truth and as somebody who's got the power 722 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 11: of the pen to write these bills that we need 723 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 11: those answers. That's all that that is going to do here. 724 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 11: This is a new thing for us, And look, we 725 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 11: do need people digging into our government and helping us 726 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 11: figure out how to get the best bills done and 727 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 11: how to trim some of the fat and to make 728 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 11: us more efficient. Gosh, that came up when I was 729 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,879 Speaker 11: working for President Obama over a decade ago, we really 730 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 11: went through a whole exercise on that, particularly for small businesses, 731 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 11: and how challenging it is for them to work for 732 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 11: the work with the federal government on occasion, and so 733 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 11: we really just want to build that trust and we 734 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 11: want to get those questions answered. And that's what I 735 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 11: think my bill would do taxpayer data protection, all sides 736 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 11: of the I are welcome to join in and sign 737 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 11: on to it. We really love to have you. 738 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 2: Well, Congressman, if we're talking about trust in the federal government, 739 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 2: what about trust and the government's ability to make sure, 740 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 2: at least through Congress, that it is continued, continually funded 741 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 2: beyond the deadline of mid next month. We've heard from 742 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 2: some of your Democratic colleagues a suggestion that your party 743 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 2: is not willing to play ball with Republicans over some 744 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 2: of the very same things we're taught talking about the 745 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 2: efforts of doge, the operations of this administration. Are you 746 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 2: willing to tolerate a shut down to make a point 747 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 2: on that. 748 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,479 Speaker 11: Well, let me tell you this, I don't think there's 749 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 11: anyone more frustrated in the Congress right now than the 750 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 11: House Republicans, in part because they're finding out about these 751 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 11: executive orders. When the American public find out, they're not 752 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 11: necessarily being brought in to the objectives of this administration, 753 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 11: and they're not having a lot of say in terms 754 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 11: of what's going on here. I've made it really clear 755 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 11: that as a member of the Minority Party in the 756 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 11: House of Representatives, I'm going to use my vote and 757 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,760 Speaker 11: my voice accordingly, and I'm going to do so alongside 758 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 11: this steady and incredible leadership that we have here in 759 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 11: the House of Representatives from Hakeem Jeffreys. That's absolutely essential. 760 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,280 Speaker 11: There's a lot of things that we have worked really 761 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 11: hard for over a number of years that frankly have 762 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 11: a lot of support around this country. I'm thinking about 763 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 11: these new manufacturing facilities that are opening up in the 764 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 11: clean tech space, that big competition we're in with the 765 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 11: Chinese Communist Party. 766 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 9: Jd. 767 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 11: Vance came to Michigan and said one of those plants 768 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 11: was table scraps. He's now our vice president. I can't 769 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,760 Speaker 11: look all those people, the hundreds of people just working 770 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 11: on rehabbing that plant. I can't look them in the 771 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,879 Speaker 11: face and say that's okay. So if we're going into 772 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 11: a budget where you're going to slash that I'm not 773 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 11: signed up here. Let's negotiate. 774 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 4: Could you look them in the face, though, Congresswoman, to 775 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,280 Speaker 4: get to Kyley's question and tell them that it's worth 776 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 4: shutting down the government to make a statement here when 777 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 4: it comes to the actions of this administration, for instance, 778 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 4: getting inside the Treasury, Department, USAID and others. 779 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 11: Well, I certainly reject the notion that the Democrats would 780 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 11: be responsible for a shutdown. I want to be really 781 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,839 Speaker 11: clear on that. We're really proud that under the four 782 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 11: years of President Biden's leadership that we never shut down 783 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 11: the government once. That's actually something that that he has 784 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 11: under his belt. And I know he's not the president anymore, 785 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 11: and that's going to fall to our commander in chief. Ultimately, 786 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 11: he's the one signing the bills, and he's got the 787 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 11: grip on the Congress with the party that he is in, 788 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 11: and we've got a speaker, and they're saying, this is 789 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 11: a big old mandate and if they are going to 790 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 11: try and open up that door to working with us, 791 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 11: we're all ears on certainly workforce initiatives which truly meet 792 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 11: that those incredible goals of the realize potential of all Americans. 793 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 11: The STEM bills, Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics that I've 794 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 11: worked on for a number of years, from rural Americans 795 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 11: to urban Americans, making sure that they've got that pipeline 796 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 11: to a good paying job. Let's have that conversation. Let's 797 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 11: fund those programs. Let's not attack the National Science Foundation, 798 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 11: the National Institute of Health. Let's build a government we 799 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 11: can trust together. 800 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 4: Well, it's great to have you back, Congressman Hailey Stevens, 801 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 4: or should I say former Treasury Department official Hailey Stevens 802 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 4: of Michigan, And it's great to have you with us, 803 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 4: of course, live from Capitol Hill. 804 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 805 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, 806 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: Cockley and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You 807 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,360 Speaker 1: can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 808 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: New York station. Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 809 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 4: President Trump will be signing some executive orders. They have 810 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 4: not been detailed on the schedule, but we do expect 811 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 4: one of them, maybe several of them, to address steel 812 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 4: and aluminum tariffs. Questions about whether there'll be exemptions. We're 813 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 4: double tariffing China. What about Canada, the primary source of 814 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 4: steel on an export level in this country. We need 815 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 4: to find all of this out still, and there will 816 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,479 Speaker 4: likely be market implications here. We're kind of dancing along 817 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,320 Speaker 4: listening to Charlie and interesting that we haven't seen. 818 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 5: Much action outside of the steel companies. We'll let you 819 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 5: know what goes on there. 820 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 4: As we turn to what I would argue is the 821 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 4: most important story of the day. Tariff seemed to come 822 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 4: and go around here. The penny not so much, though 823 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 4: it may be going. That's the latest order from the 824 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 4: President of the United States to the Treasury, which of 825 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 4: course oversees the mint, stop making the penny, he says, 826 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 4: calling them wasteful. You do wonder about these executive orders, 827 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,240 Speaker 4: the stroke of a pen or a sharpie, impacting entire 828 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 4: industries or businesses as anyone reached out to coinstar at 829 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 4: the grocery store. Stephen Dennis, as a matter of fact, 830 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 4: has before this order went out. We were talking to 831 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 4: Stephen about the veracity of the penny, the value of 832 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,919 Speaker 4: the penny, staying. 833 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 5: Power of the penny. 834 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 4: Stephen covers Congress for a living, but as an expert 835 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 4: on the penny and he's with us right now at 836 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 4: the table. Did I go too far with that? I 837 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,240 Speaker 4: feel like you're pretty close to an expert. 838 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 8: I've found this penny issue fascinating. See for decade, for decades, 839 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 8: we've spent more money to make a penny than the 840 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 8: government gets back by selling them to banks, right, and 841 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 8: so this is like such an old, you know issue. 842 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,359 Speaker 8: They actually made a West Wing episode about it, and 843 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:20,320 Speaker 8: people have been trying to kill it or to suspend 844 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,959 Speaker 8: the production of it. John McCain actually had a bill 845 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 8: a number of years ago to well to stop. 846 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 5: Minting them, could still use them? 847 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,240 Speaker 8: Yeah, you still use them. I mean there are something 848 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 8: like two hundred billion pennies in circulation, so they're not 849 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 8: going to go away overnight even if we stop minting them. 850 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 8: We've been minting about three or four five billion every 851 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,320 Speaker 8: year and so that's imagine that potentially one hundred million 852 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,280 Speaker 8: dollars in less spending. But you know, in the past, 853 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,320 Speaker 8: Congress has not wanted to take on the penny lobby. 854 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 8: And yeah, so there's you know, there's Pennies dot Org. 855 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,240 Speaker 8: There's a company in Tennessee called now called Artisan. 856 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 5: Were you referring to Americans for common sense. 857 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 8: Yeah, there's a various groups out there that lobby to 858 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,239 Speaker 8: keep the penny in it. And so you have the 859 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,800 Speaker 8: company that makes all the zinc blanks is in Tennessee 860 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 8: called Artisan Okay, so they make money off of the penny. 861 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 5: Which is not made of copper. 862 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 8: Oh, it's still has some copper in little copper, mostly zinc. 863 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 5: And these people have real jobs at this place. 864 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 8: Yeah, there's still lots of people who mine the zinc 865 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 8: and the copper, make the stuff. 866 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 4: The trade of zoo pennies dot org. These guys are, 867 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 4: they're not volunteers. 868 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,839 Speaker 8: Used to be a company called Jarden Zinc. It's been 869 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,960 Speaker 8: around since the eighteen hundreds making things like pennies. And 870 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 8: so you know, there could be a fight on Trump's 871 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 8: hands here with people who represent districts where there are 872 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 8: penny jobs. But you know this is this has been 873 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,759 Speaker 8: one of those classic cases of Washington not wanting to, 874 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 8: you know, squeeze something because you have to take on 875 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 8: somebody who's going to be lobbing to keep their piece. 876 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 5: Of the pie. 877 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,240 Speaker 4: Well, so Doge was got a head start on this, yes, 878 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 4: and took to X saying the penny costs over three 879 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 4: cents to make. Consider that and cost US taxpayers over 880 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 4: one hundred and seventy nine million dollars in f y 881 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 4: twenty twenty three penny or three cents for your thoughts, 882 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 4: it said Donald Trump, making the point that when do 883 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,280 Speaker 4: you think the last time Donald Trump used a penny? 884 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 8: I think it's unlikely. He's just a penny just you know, 885 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 8: do you. 886 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 5: Ever know guys who throw the pennies out? 887 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 3: Yeah? 888 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,319 Speaker 8: I mean if you think, if you think about it, 889 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 8: like minimum wage now seven to twenty five an hour, 890 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,439 Speaker 8: still seven twenty five an hour, you'd have to pick 891 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 8: up been down seven hundred and twenty five times every 892 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,280 Speaker 8: hour just to make a minimum wage. And that explains 893 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 8: why there are two hundred billion in circulation. 894 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 3: You know. 895 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,719 Speaker 8: People throw them out, people throw them into the river, 896 00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 8: the people put them in jars in their basements. Because 897 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 8: but he uses them. The only person I've seen using 898 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,800 Speaker 8: one in the last year in the US Senate. Yeah, okay, 899 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 8: where I eat every day is Ed Markey. So he's 900 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 8: he's brought he to the penny. He's basically sort of 901 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 8: he's been in Congress for many decades. He's truly old school. 902 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 8: He wants to mandate AM radio in every car. 903 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, God love them. 904 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 8: Uh, you know, he still uses pennies and sort of 905 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 8: wadded up dollar bills to pay for his lunch, and 906 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 8: but everybody else uses a card, so the demand for 907 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 8: Kenny's pennies is plummeting. Retailers tend to not like having 908 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,399 Speaker 8: to have cash registers waste their time sort of counting them. 909 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 8: So the Coinstar Yeah, now, Coinstar also, their entire business 910 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 8: model is basically based on people not wanting to count 911 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 8: them out and finding them useless, so they'll go to 912 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 8: Coinstar and dump in hundreds of pennies to get like 913 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,799 Speaker 8: a you know, a gift card or something. And you know, 914 00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 8: so I don't think Coinstar is going to be actually 915 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 8: that hurt that. 916 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 5: Much because people a lot of dumb pennies. 917 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 8: People still have two hundred billion pennies to turn and 918 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,759 Speaker 8: now that's only two billion dollars. You know, it's just 919 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 8: you know, when you think about the actual amount of 920 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 8: money involved here, it's made small, yes, right, And that's 921 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 8: the classic example in Washington where they say, you know, 922 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 8: the juice isn't worth a squeeze. Do you actually want 923 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 8: to squeeze it when you know you're gonna have to 924 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 8: make some people unhappy. 925 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 4: We're getting the best of Steven Dennis right now. I 926 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 4: hope everyone who enjoys. 927 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 8: Don't forget the nickel. 928 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 5: Get the nickel. 929 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 4: I'm about to go there because Ed Marky will be 930 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,359 Speaker 4: glad to know that the people at penny dot org 931 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 4: penny or pennies pennies dot org, well, they see the 932 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,399 Speaker 4: nickel eating us alive if you do. 933 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,239 Speaker 5: Away with the penny. Now, by the way, I. 934 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,800 Speaker 4: Was shocked to learn today that the nickel costs thirteen 935 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,879 Speaker 4: point seven eight cents to make. 936 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 5: This is way worse than the penny. 937 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 4: And they say you take pennies away, you know what's 938 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,800 Speaker 4: gonna happen drive up the cost of the nickel. 939 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,839 Speaker 8: Well, and they also, you know people might use more. 940 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 5: You're gonna need more nickel, right, so you know. 941 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,759 Speaker 8: The next step would obviously be get getting rid of 942 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 8: the nickel. Now, nickel uses nickel, which is actually very 943 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 8: important for things like ev batteries. Right, so you have 944 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 8: you have Elon Musk he uses a lot of nickel, 945 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 8: and his Tesla's correct. Right now, we're like digging nickel 946 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 8: out of like an island mine in the South Pacific. 947 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 8: We're surrounded by it and using some of that nickel 948 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:29,280 Speaker 8: and nichols, right, so uh yeah, the the nickel costs 949 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 8: a lot more than we than we currently get back. 950 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,560 Speaker 5: From The Canada has done this right, They just round 951 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:35,920 Speaker 5: everything up. 952 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,239 Speaker 8: Lots lots of countries have gotten rid of it and 953 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 8: it's no big deal. 954 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,040 Speaker 4: So that it would be it would be nine ninety 955 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,920 Speaker 4: five from now on if it had been nine ninety one, 956 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 4: you're gonna go to you probably. 957 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,360 Speaker 8: You know, Congress could theoretically come in and pass a 958 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 8: law to govern the rounding up, rounding down part of this, 959 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 8: but in the meantime it might be just sort of 960 00:48:58,040 --> 00:48:58,960 Speaker 8: like anything goes. 961 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,480 Speaker 4: This is a fascinating conversation in the age of blockchain. 962 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 4: Is there an eventual goal to eliminate all the coins here, 963 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,120 Speaker 4: all the physical coins, so we're doing digital coins. 964 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 8: I mean, if you think about the inflation that we've 965 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 8: had and the inflation we're going to continue to have 966 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,960 Speaker 8: even if we get down to the two percent target, 967 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,600 Speaker 8: eventually all these coins become worthless. You know, you're gonna 968 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,280 Speaker 8: you know, the dyme might stick around a little longer. 969 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,399 Speaker 8: The quarter currently make a profit on that's not gonna 970 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,239 Speaker 8: last another one hundred years. So and the reality is 971 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,640 Speaker 8: is fewer and fewer people are using physical money. They 972 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,400 Speaker 8: are using their credit cards, they're using their debit cards. 973 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,399 Speaker 8: That trend is going to continue. And then you've got 974 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,840 Speaker 8: people talking about, well, we can do stable coins and 975 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 8: you can have a stable coin card. You can go 976 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,960 Speaker 8: to Walmart use the Walmart stable coin card. That's already 977 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,359 Speaker 8: talk of, you know, doing all that sort of thing 978 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,560 Speaker 8: as well. Nobody's using pennies, like there are a few 979 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:03,920 Speaker 8: people who say, well, charity use it in the you know, holidays, 980 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:05,880 Speaker 8: you can go to the Salvation Army and dump your 981 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 8: pennies into the but that's still a lot of friction, 982 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,240 Speaker 8: you know, to actually give somebody some money. And it's 983 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 8: this may be the time the pennies finally go away. 984 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,480 Speaker 8: But it's also possible that Congress says no on Article one. 985 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,319 Speaker 8: Congress has the power to mint coins. Now they've given 986 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,920 Speaker 8: the secretary some discretion, you know, the secretary has some 987 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,160 Speaker 8: discretion on how many to make. So I wouldn't be 988 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,759 Speaker 8: surprised if the Treasury Secretary, you know, says, will mint 989 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 8: ten thousand this year. 990 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 4: Well, it's funny to think. You know, Congress doesn't have 991 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 4: a lot to say about ending entire federal agencies. But 992 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,040 Speaker 4: you mess with the penny, you're flying a little close 993 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:49,440 Speaker 4: to the sun. Pennies are made of zinc, little copper. Yeah, 994 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 4: is there steal in any of this stuff to the 995 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:52,360 Speaker 4: steel aluminum tariffs? 996 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:54,560 Speaker 5: No, it's the coins. 997 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,839 Speaker 8: But there was a proposal by Joni Ernzt, who kind 998 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,160 Speaker 8: of got the ball rolling here with Dough. She's the 999 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,840 Speaker 8: co chair of the Dough Caucus. She had a bill 1000 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:06,280 Speaker 8: with the Democrats to change the composition of pennies, nickels, 1001 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,080 Speaker 8: and other things to make them a little cheaper, not 1002 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:10,719 Speaker 8: to get rid of them entirely, but to make them 1003 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,239 Speaker 8: a little cheaper than three cents for a penny, so 1004 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 8: you could you could make them out of something cheaper. 1005 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:22,759 Speaker 8: But that bill doesn't seem to be going anywhere, you know, 1006 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,680 Speaker 8: you know, any anytime you're doing something like this, you 1007 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 8: canna have a zinc lobby, a copper lobby. You know, 1008 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,520 Speaker 8: you're gonna have the nickel lobby. They're not gonna wanna 1009 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,120 Speaker 8: lose their money. The unions aren't. 1010 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,600 Speaker 4: Gonna want then lobby and the nickel lobby like they 1011 00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:38,520 Speaker 4: they have like chain fights in the parking lot. 1012 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,040 Speaker 5: Is that are these guys opposed? You know, it does 1013 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:43,239 Speaker 5: seem to any of them. 1014 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,439 Speaker 8: It does seem to be every metal and every coin 1015 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:46,440 Speaker 8: out for themselves. 1016 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 4: It seems like maybe they could band together for the 1017 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,320 Speaker 4: greater good. Now, next time I find like a green 1018 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 4: gross penny in a pocket or in the couch or whatever, 1019 00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,480 Speaker 4: it's kind of corroded. Am I saving that for posterity? 1020 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,839 Speaker 4: Or there's just so many of them that they're they're 1021 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:01,680 Speaker 4: gonna be worthless. 1022 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 8: I think unless they're an old penny, that they're basically worthless. 1023 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:06,640 Speaker 5: Got it? 1024 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,360 Speaker 8: You know, there's two hundred billion out there. There's like 1025 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 8: think I think about how big that number is. That 1026 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,560 Speaker 8: is a stupefyingly big number. It might be the most 1027 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,440 Speaker 8: common thing out there than like dental picks, it is, 1028 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,880 Speaker 8: and people aren't saving those either. So like this is 1029 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:23,120 Speaker 8: that This is just you. 1030 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:24,719 Speaker 4: Know, this is the kind of stuff you learn when 1031 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,080 Speaker 4: you talk to Steven Dennis in the pantry in the hallway. 1032 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:28,960 Speaker 4: This is the kind of man you want to have 1033 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,840 Speaker 4: in the newsroom. Thank you for bringing your expertise to 1034 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,399 Speaker 4: us here. Sure, I need to balance of power when 1035 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,600 Speaker 4: it comes to the Mighty Penny. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington. 1036 00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 4: Glad you came along. You didn't think you were going 1037 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,200 Speaker 4: to learn as much about the Penny Today. Look out 1038 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 4: for the Nickel lobby guys. They're not fooling around. The 1039 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 4: fastest show in politics, This is Bloomberd. Thanks for listening 1040 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,960 Speaker 4: to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe 1041 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,879 Speaker 4: if you haven't already, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get 1042 00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,920 Speaker 4: your podcasts, and you can find us live every weekday 1043 00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,760 Speaker 4: from Washington, DC at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.