WEBVTT - When Anxiety Comes Back 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.400 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:18.480 Jen Kirkman. Hi, welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.480 I am your host, Jen Kirkman. Thanks for being here. Now, 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:25.680 I know if you're a regular listener that last week 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:28.720 was a solo episode from me, So I feel like 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.400 you've heard enough of me already. Let's get back to 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.879 the interview episodes. And I'm just going to get right 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:39.120 into it. My guest today is Drew lyns Alatta. And 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.000 how I found out about Drew is you know, before 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.280 I started this podcast, I was researching other anxiety podcasts 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:48.840 out there, and you know, putting a curse on everyone 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.360 who had an anxiety podcast so that mine could be 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.760 the only one out there that didn't work. However, um, 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.920 just kidding, But Drew's is great, and he does a 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.760 solo podcast most lee. He will have a guest occasionally. 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:04.839 I should know because I'm going to be a guest 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.959 on his in the upcoming weeks. But his solo podcast 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:13.199 is great. It's informative, it's concise, there are different themes 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.759 every week, and I thought, oh god, I'm so glad 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.840 that my podcast is not a solo podcast because his 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:23.800 just kicks ass, I can't even compete, so but I 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.000 didn't know him or anything about him. And then when 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:31.200 I interviewed um Joshua Fletcher, the therapist from the UK, 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.800 he mentioned off air that he knew Drew, and so 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:39.640 that was enough of a validation for me, and so 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.160 I probably went about getting Drew on the podcast, which 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.160 is great because we both live in the same city, 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.640 we both kind of have the same time available, so 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.040 I worked out great. But what I wanted to talk 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:56.160 to Drew specifically about and what I think the overarching 0:01:56.200 --> 0:02:00.360 theme of this episode is when anxiety comes back. Right. 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.560 I always liken the notion of anxiety quote coming back 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:10.519 as the scary thing in a horror movie. Right, everybody 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:18.280 has killed the shark, exercise, the ghosts, shot the zombies, whatever, 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.600 and there's that sense of peace, but that foreboding peace 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:25.240 at the end of a horror movie if you know 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.239 enough to know, well, there's obviously going to be a sequel, 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:28.720 and of course the thing is going to come back. 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.040 Now if we can only look at our anxiety that way, 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.120 sort of, my analogies are terrible, but I'm going to 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:38.400 embrace that. I think a lot of people we'll have 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:44.720 about of anxiety or panic, and it goes away either 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:46.880 on its own, or they do some things, or the 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:52.720 circumstance changes, and then it quote comes back because maybe 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.960 the circumstances changed again and there's something else going on. 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.320 I don't know, a worldwide pandemic, being on the verge 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.880 of World War, you know those kind of things, or 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.639 maybe a job situation changed, maybe there's stress, or maybe 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.720 there's no reason. I think that's what throws people the most, 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:13.960 is the no reason come back. And so my biggest 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.200 message to people is again, I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.880 not a doctor. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a professor. 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.920 I'm not a researcher. But just the way that it 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.840 helps me as someone who has experienced anxiety for decades 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:30.560 is that we don't need to think of it as 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.000 oh my god, if this chronic thing is never going away, 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.160 you in worder to go into a negative hit about it. 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.280 But if there's a realistic thing of yo, yeah it 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:41.280 could come back, and you know if it does, I 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:42.920 have the tools to handle it. I didn't do anything wrong. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:44.720 It just came back. I don't know why. I don't 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.440 even need to know why. I mean, it could be circumstantial, 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.800 it could be just I don't know, just kind of 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.720 holding it like that. But mostly when I hear from people, 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:56.440 even before I started this podcast, but when I would 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:58.839 talk about anxiety and social media or in my comedy act, 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:03.560 people would always say to me I had anxiety. I 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.160 did some things. It went away, and then it came back. 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:10.360 And because it came back, it's almost like they don't 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.400 do anything about it because they think we'll forget it. 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:18.320 This is this isn't fixable, this is terminal, to put 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:22.640 it in a weird way, and they see it almost 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.640 as a failing on their part or an unluckiness or 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:27.800 oh my god, I must have it so bad. But 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:29.400 there's no point in getting rid of it. It's gonna 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:33.000 keep coming back. Maybe there's a little disappointment that seeps 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.359 in where you think, well, why would I try to 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.200 get rid of it again? It's just going to come back. 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:43.039 And I think everybody's looking at it incorrectly. The way 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:48.040 I look at it is sometimes I think of you know, 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.599 anxieties as there. It's sort of like it's kind of 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.880 just in your system, if that makes sense. And sometimes 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:59.320 it's dormant and sometimes it's back, sometimes it's quiet, sometimes 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:03.719 it's allowed, or it's not necessarily that anxiety came back. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.320 But the notion that you it's weird because anxiety is 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.560 something we've control over UM once it hits us, but 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:16.000 we don't always have control over it happening. So it's 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.320 it's hard to put it this way, but we see 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.520 anxiety is something we have control over in the sense 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:23.920 of if we get rid of it, we have now 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.920 mastered it never coming back. And that's not quite how 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.560 it works. We can control it in the moment through 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.560 breathing and various cognitive behavior therapies that we do with 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:37.800 our thoughts UM, and we can control it to a 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.960 certain degree. Rights everyone is on a different spectrum of 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.200 anxiety or anxiety disorder, but in general there are things 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.520 we can do where we can at least feel a 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.800 sense of control. We can help to calm it back 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:55.800 down UM or even help alleviate it, or work through 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.239 situations that used to scare us driving on the highway, 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.640 getting on an aeroplane, you know, being in a crowded elevator. 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.920 Whatever it is for you, But I think for me, 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.880 the biggest through line to everything is always the signs 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:14.480 of almost this lack of self esteem or beating ourselves up. 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.320 You know, I feel like people almost embrace when anxiety 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.560 comes back. Great, you know, here's another opportunity to beat 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.839 myself up, another thing I failed up. You know, we 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:28.320 fall into that. So what I love about Drew's story 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:34.279 is that his anxiety came back and and he'll he'll 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:35.760 tell this in his own words, but just to give 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.880 you the headlines, Drew had his first panic attack right 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.440 when he was out of college. He had never had 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.600 any kind of anxiety or panic. It really through him. 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:46.600 He thought he was dying. You know the story. It's 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.720 probably happened to you. He found a book that really 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:54.800 helped him. It was a book by the Australian author 0:06:56.160 --> 0:07:00.320 Clear Weeks, and the book was called Passed Through Panic Um. 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.880 The book has different names depending on what country it's 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.599 published in. But it really helped him and he learned 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:11.840 some tools and then his panic attacks and his anxiety 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:16.160 dissipated and was gone for about ten years, and then 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:22.280 it came back. And what he realized was, as he says, 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.520 he didn't work hard enough to get rid of it 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:27.200 the first time. And you'll hear us talk about it 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:29.560 in the interview. He doesn't mean to put himself down 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:31.520 or disugst that you guys aren't working hard enough. He 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.720 just means he didn't need it enough. He didn't need 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:40.600 the recovery enough two do enough of it that it 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.840 would make more of a long lasting impact to where 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.480 he would be okay, if you know, anxiety randomly came 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.920 back here and there. He really thought it was one 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:50.720 and done and over with, and when it came back, 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:55.360 something happened to him where he completely forgot and he 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.360 can't explain it to this day. He completely forgot about 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:01.360 the book, he ad, the tools he used, and just 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:04.840 didn't do the work again. So that's sort of the 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:09.280 overarching theme of this conversation is the notion of what 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:11.520 to do an anxiety comes back, what it means, what 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:15.160 it doesn't mean, and just how there is so much hope. 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.080 And then I'm really inspired by the way Drew really 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:22.440 just doesn't really have anxiety or panic anymore. And and 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.600 he used to be, you know, completely agoraphobic, not even 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.360 able to leave his home because it got so bad. 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.800 So I will stop talking and I will let you 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.960 listen to this episode. But just a few words about Drew. 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:37.280 He's the creator and host of The Anxious Truth, a 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:41.720 slightly unorthodox anxiety podcast. It's been going on since. There's 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:46.360 over a million downloads and growing. He also sends out 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:50.080 a daily daily This man has really put in the 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:55.600 work a daily free newsletter every morning called The Anxious Morning, 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.480 and you can read a little something about the topic 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:00.600 of the day. And it's also of lable of something 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.800 you can listen to. Having suffered with anxiety, panic disorder, 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.440 a gore phobia, and depression several times over a twenty 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.200 year period, Drew got it together once and for all 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.720 in two thousand eight. Since then, life has been happy, productive, 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.400 and quote normal. For the last fifteen years, Drew has 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.199 been active in the online anxiety community, working to use 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.679 his experience and understanding to help those that are following 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.679 down the path he has traveled. His no nonsense approach 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.199 to these problems, and his willingness to provide direct, actionable 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.720 advice even when it might not be easy to hear, 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.160 has established him as a unique voice in the anxiety 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:40.480 recovery community. Drew published two books on anxiety and anxiety recovery. 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.640 One is called an Anxiety Story and another one called 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.640 The Anxious Truth. Um, he is an Amazon bestselling author. 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:54.319 So let's jump in to my conversation Withdrew when anxiety 0:09:54.400 --> 0:10:01.080 comes back In that book, you all the journey of 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.960 Oh my god, I just said journey kill me. Hey 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.200 when I say that word, I have literally said that myself. 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.320 Oh my god, I just said vision board kill me. 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.280 I've had these conversations with people, so I hear you. 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:18.440 I'm gonna have to go. You know what I'm gonna 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:20.120 have to do because I keep saying this word. I'm 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:22.480 gonna need to pull up the sores dot com someday 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:26.280 and write down alternate words. But anyway, for now, your 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:31.959 journey of panic attacks and your first panic attack was 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.520 right after college. And what I love about your description 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.760 of it is a lot of people will go to 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.480 the hospital with what they think is a heart attack 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.200 and it turns out to be a panic attack. You 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:49.120 had a very similar experience to me, and so I'm 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:51.280 sure a million other people and I hope a million 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.199 people are listening, Which is it's not that you thought 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.080 you were having a heart attack. You thought it was, 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:58.920 as you called it, the precursor to death, right, So 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.000 you had your d as Asian deep personalization feelings, which 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.720 listeners I talked about on a previous episode with Josh Fletcher, 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:10.520 and those feelings I imagine I haven't died yet, um 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:12.760 or maybe what it feels like to go through the 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:14.679 tunnel and you feel like any minute you're gonna see 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:16.400 the light and you're gonna be on the other side 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.360 or whatever there is, or you're gonna be dead, and 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.400 you just kind of sat there having the panic attack 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.240 which you didn't know, which you thought was the precursor 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.880 to death, going I'm dying. I'm not even gonna wake up. 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.280 My mom goes, why should she watch it? Can you? 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:31.199 Can you describe it in your own words? I can 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.319 tot you do that, and I'm sure most people could 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:35.840 could understand this. And it's funny because in that book, 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.200 that's the part that gets most feedback, like, oh my god, 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.800 you describe my experience perfectly. But we all share such 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.520 a common experience. I was I was actually still in school, 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:46.480 is my sophomore year at you b I was home 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:48.960 at spring break and like in the house I grew 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.360 up in, and everything was going great. I got like 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.480 a four point out great point average, Like who slides 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:55.440 into padick disorder and has a four point out like 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.559 this guy. Right, it was stupid sense, But everything was 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.440 going really well, and I remember I was just hanging 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:01.680 out and I was reading a book. I was in 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.160 bed and listen to music, and uh, all of a sudden, 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.960 I was like that weird. I never you know, it's 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:09.800 funny in retrospect. We can talk about this if you want. 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.240 I did experience the realization and deep personalization when I 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.280 was little. I just didn't know what it was, and 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.160 that only hit me a couple of years ago that 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.720 I realized, Oh, when everybody felt like there was so 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.840 far away, that's what that was. But anyway, so I 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.960 was hit with de realization and everything felt weird. But 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.440 deep personalization. I felt like it was outside myself. And 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.079 I mean, you guys can understand if you're listening, you 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.040 know what that feels like. It was terrifying. I had 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:39.120 never experienced that before. And then I immediately became deathly 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.640 afraid of the sensations I was having, and my heart 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:43.240 was pounding and I started sweating and I felt I 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:44.760 couldn't breathe, and you you all know what a panic 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:46.839 attack feels like, but I didn't know it was a 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.240 panic attack, and I thought that de realization and that 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.840 deep personalization feeling. I truly interpreted it as it's been 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.800 a good run nineteen years. I did, Okay, I guess 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.240 I'm out, Like I mean, I'm being I'm joking about it, 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.320 but I truly, in that moment, that's how I interpreted it. 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.880 This is what it feels like when you don't oh, 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.400 I I totally related. I was in high school having 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:12.600 that feeling in my French class, and I thought, wow, 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.000 this is I was kind of death obsessed, you know, um, 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.760 kind of an anxious neurotic person. And you know, the 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.440 music I was listening to certainly didn't help me not 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:22.960 think about death all the time. I listened to the 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:27.440 Smiths a lot. You're young, and I'm like, you know, 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.720 I was very dramatic and like writing in my diary 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.280 all the time about you know, I'd love to sit 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:35.760 in a seminary and think these people had lives and 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.920 everyone just drives by it. And uh so when I 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.439 was having my little panic attack, well it wasn't little 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.720 in my French class, I remember thinking, oh, this is 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.680 why I'm so obsessed with death. I knew somewhere that 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.720 I was going to die young and it's happening right now. 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.720 And it's interesting though that you didn't go wake up 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:57.600 your mom. You just thought you might just lay there. 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.480 And I don't know, well, if I think about that, 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:05.160 Like the thought process was so strange, like in each moment, 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.800 I'm like, well, this is it. There's no point because 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:09.960 this is it, this is where you go, I'm going 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:11.920 right now. And then it was well, I didn't, but 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:13.840 this is the moment now, and then this is the 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.079 moment now. And clearly that moment never came because that 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.960 was many years ago. But that was my interpretation. It 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:20.360 wasn't oh my god, I'm having a heart attack or 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:21.720 oh my god, I'm having a stroke, or oh my god, 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:23.760 I'm having some sort of embolism. It was literally just 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.200 I guess this is what it feels like when you die. 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:28.760 But it was terrifying. I'm you know, in retrospect, I 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:30.520 could talk about it and joke and make make it 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.160 turn a little bit humorous. It's humorous because of the 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.120 absurdity of it in the end, which is the nature 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.360 of panic as it is. But I was this is it, 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.440 and I remember in the book, I even write the story. 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:43.040 So I know you went through it, but like I 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:45.320 got myself. I went and splashed water in my face. 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:47.720 I did all the typical, the usual panic attack things 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.160 that everybody tries to do. I didn't know why I 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.480 was doing that, but I did them. Um, laid against 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.080 the cold tile in my bathroom to feel the cold tile, 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.560 you know, tried bad. And then I kind of limped 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.040 into the living room and said on the the shitty 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.440 powder blue bark a lounger, and like then my mom 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:06.440 did come out. She heard me up. She's like, how 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.920 you do? Are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, what 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.520 the two creative? I made some really crazy decisions in 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:13.440 my life. That was one of the top three. Why 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:15.520 would I say, Yo, sure you I'm good. Do you 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:19.320 think that there's something deep down that you did know 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:24.560 you were okay? I do? I do? There's something about 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.920 that that I mean, I won't. I don't know. We're 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.320 never going to truly know that answer. I'm sure, but 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:35.040 I had to know because at each moment that passes 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.520 that you don't die. Look, this is the crux of 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.760 the lesson of recovery. Anyway, that takes a long time 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:41.600 to learn. But in each moment that like, well I 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:42.960 still didn't die, and it still didn't die, and it 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.600 still didn't die. And I did reach a point maybe 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:47.600 an hour or so into that, as it's rising and 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:49.760 falling and rising and falling because you know, John Aine 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.080 will do that, that I realized like, well, maybe I'm 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:54.520 not dying. Maybe I don't know what this is and 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.280 this is terrifying still, but maybe I'm actually not dying 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.960 right now. I remember having that realization and it wasn't 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.280 you long after she came out and asked, you know, 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:03.880 you okay, and then she went back to bed, like 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:05.800 the worst line of my life, and you just went 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:07.880 back to bed, thanks, Mom, like you know it was 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.120 she didn't know. I didn't say anything. Shay didn't know, 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:12.680 but that's I don't know. Maybe some part of me 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.160 did understand. But I was coming to the realization, well, 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:16.920 I'm still not dead. I'm still not dead. I'm still 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:18.800 not dead. So I knew I was wrong. I could 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.080 tell that I was I was wrong. I still didn't 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.720 know what it was, though, And so I want to 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.120 drill down into this just because I've gotten emails from 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:28.360 people that are like, you know, you always say on 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.480 your show, and these experts say panic attacks last time minutes, 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:33.800 but mine last an hour. And I know what they're saying, 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.440 because I've certainly had all day panic attacks. It wasn't 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:42.680 just anxiety, um, but literally like you cannot from start 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.160 to finish panic for one hour straight. Like like you said, 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.680 it's it's up and down, it comes and goes right. 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:53.520 So for anyone listening that you know wants to say 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.600 I have them for an hour though, so mine are bad, 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:58.000 it's like, well, just you know, look at that, because 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.000 it's not It's probably not literally no relief for an hour, 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.280 because that that's just not positively physiologically possible. It doesn't 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.640 work that way. And one of the insidious things about 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:09.879 panic and anxiety in the irrational fear that comes with it. 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.000 And by the way, the fear is always real. That's 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.919 not not fake fear. Don't anybody tell you that it's 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.439 in your head. The fear is a real there's no 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.680 doubt about that. But it's irrational because there's no underlying 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.800 danger beneath it. We just think there is. The one 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.200 of the insidious things about that situation is it will 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.680 insist that this is the worst panic attack I've ever had. 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.000 How many people have you talked to? Many? And you 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:33.200 may have been one of them, And for a while 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.119 I was one of them. Every panic attack was the 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.159 worst one ever. This was the worst one. This is 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.280 the worst one. But in reality, if you get hooked, 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:40.760 if you had a bunch of doctors around you and 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:42.320 they hooked you up to all kinds of monitoring devices, 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.320 the physiology but look the same in every single one. 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.200 The interpretation changes. But yes, it's an undulating wave. There's 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:49.919 that spike and it comes down. It's like you just 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.640 never come down to zero. So therefore you will say 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:56.480 my panic lasts for three days straight because you think 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.480 it ends when you have zero anxiety. That's not that's 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:11.320 not I work. We'll be right back. So when you're 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.080 sitting there going, well, I'm dying in the most fucked 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.640 up way, that is a form of acceptance, but it's 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:26.199 not real acceptance. Right, So you talked later about you 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:28.920 read this book by Claire Weeks. Is it called Passed 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.520 Through Panic? That's one version of it. It actually has 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.600 multiple titles depending on where in the world you live. 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.119 I had I had it as hope and help for 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:41.560 your nerves. Okay, it shows So she's an Australian author. Yeah, 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.200 she was a physician that works in the nineteen fifties 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.760 and she b was a kind of a pioneer in 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:51.600 describing these problems too late people. So you go through 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.239 her books and you you learn some some techniques and 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:56.960 one of them is acceptance. And so take us through 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.679 what true acceptance looks like. Because when I've used this 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.440 word with people before, you know, it seems like you're saying, well, 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.520 accept it. You know it's never going to change, And uh, 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:08.919 I don't want to accept it, right, I mean, I 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.080 do use the word acceptance. And she also wrote a 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.480 lot about floating. You have to float through panic and 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.080 float and accept and float and accept, and I don't 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:17.879 I don't like those words. I think of Dr Weeks 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.240 had the benefit of the Internet in her day, she 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.639 would stop using those words because they create tremendous amounts 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.000 of confusion. Acceptance does not mean liking it, nor does 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:30.320 it mean wanting it. I use the word surrender, and 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:32.840 what I actually learned to do after reading Dctor Weeks 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:37.359 is and technically I surrendered that surrender. That's surrender. Then 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:39.560 that's the word that I like to use. But in 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.919 the end the it's a practice of literally giving up 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.879 the fight, not giving up your quest to recover. It 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.800 doesn't mean giving up, but in the moment, it means 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:52.600 I'm not I'm clearly not successful in fighting this thing 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:55.600 when it happens, trying to stop it, manage it, knock 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.560 it down, manage the symptoms. So I'm just gonna let 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:00.960 it come and get me, because it keeps failing to 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.520 take me down. As much as it threatens to, it 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.080 never does. So I'm just gonna let it, let it happen. 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:07.800 And the first time I ever did that, and that 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.159 was after reading Hope and Help for Your Nerves, was 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.560 sitting the driveway and in the passenger see the car 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.760 I wrote that wrote out in the book, and I 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:16.280 felt it coming. You know what it feels like when 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:18.720 that panic is rising and you know what's gonna happen, Like, okay, 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.200 this is happening now. And I remember thinking, I asked 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:22.800 my mother was in the car with me, and ask you, Yeah, 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.320 of the car, I'm like, go in the house. I 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.960 just got to sit here. She was like really, and 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:28.840 I'm like yep, And I was like here we go, 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.159 And I literally just slunk back into the chair and 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:32.920 I and I had to make a moment and there 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:34.480 was a lot of bravery in that moment. I don't 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:37.800 take it that that's important, that's part of it. That said, Okay, 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:39.320 you have to come and get me. Now, you have 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.520 to come and kill me now. And I I just, yeah, 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.440