Speaker 1: This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. Hi, welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites.
Speaker 1: I am your host, Jen Kirkman. Thanks for being here. Now,
Speaker 1: I know if you're a regular listener that last week
Speaker 1: was a solo episode from me, So I feel like
Speaker 1: you've heard enough of me already. Let's get back to
Speaker 1: the interview episodes. And I'm just going to get right
Speaker 1: into it. My guest today is Drew lyns Alatta. And
Speaker 1: how I found out about Drew is you know, before
Speaker 1: I started this podcast, I was researching other anxiety podcasts
Speaker 1: out there, and you know, putting a curse on everyone
Speaker 1: who had an anxiety podcast so that mine could be
Speaker 1: the only one out there that didn't work. However, um,
Speaker 1: just kidding, But Drew's is great, and he does a
Speaker 1: solo podcast most lee. He will have a guest occasionally.
Speaker 1: I should know because I'm going to be a guest
Speaker 1: on his in the upcoming weeks. But his solo podcast
Speaker 1: is great. It's informative, it's concise, there are different themes
Speaker 1: every week, and I thought, oh god, I'm so glad
Speaker 1: that my podcast is not a solo podcast because his
Speaker 1: just kicks ass, I can't even compete, so but I
Speaker 1: didn't know him or anything about him. And then when
Speaker 1: I interviewed um Joshua Fletcher, the therapist from the UK,
Speaker 1: he mentioned off air that he knew Drew, and so
Speaker 1: that was enough of a validation for me, and so
Speaker 1: I probably went about getting Drew on the podcast, which
Speaker 1: is great because we both live in the same city,
Speaker 1: we both kind of have the same time available, so
Speaker 1: I worked out great. But what I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to Drew specifically about and what I think the overarching
Speaker 1: theme of this episode is when anxiety comes back. Right.
Speaker 1: I always liken the notion of anxiety quote coming back
Speaker 1: as the scary thing in a horror movie. Right, everybody
Speaker 1: has killed the shark, exercise, the ghosts, shot the zombies, whatever,
Speaker 1: and there's that sense of peace, but that foreboding peace
Speaker 1: at the end of a horror movie if you know
Speaker 1: enough to know, well, there's obviously going to be a sequel,
Speaker 1: and of course the thing is going to come back.
Speaker 1: Now if we can only look at our anxiety that way,
Speaker 1: sort of, my analogies are terrible, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: embrace that. I think a lot of people we'll have
Speaker 1: about of anxiety or panic, and it goes away either
Speaker 1: on its own, or they do some things, or the
Speaker 1: circumstance changes, and then it quote comes back because maybe
Speaker 1: the circumstances changed again and there's something else going on.
Speaker 1: I don't know, a worldwide pandemic, being on the verge
Speaker 1: of World War, you know those kind of things, or
Speaker 1: maybe a job situation changed, maybe there's stress, or maybe
Speaker 1: there's no reason. I think that's what throws people the most,
Speaker 1: is the no reason come back. And so my biggest
Speaker 1: message to people is again, I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm
Speaker 1: not a doctor. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a professor.
Speaker 1: I'm not a researcher. But just the way that it
Speaker 1: helps me as someone who has experienced anxiety for decades
Speaker 1: is that we don't need to think of it as
Speaker 1: oh my god, if this chronic thing is never going away,
Speaker 1: you in worder to go into a negative hit about it.
Speaker 1: But if there's a realistic thing of yo, yeah it
Speaker 1: could come back, and you know if it does, I
Speaker 1: have the tools to handle it. I didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1: It just came back. I don't know why. I don't
Speaker 1: even need to know why. I mean, it could be circumstantial,
Speaker 1: it could be just I don't know, just kind of
Speaker 1: holding it like that. But mostly when I hear from people,
Speaker 1: even before I started this podcast, but when I would
Speaker 1: talk about anxiety and social media or in my comedy act,
Speaker 1: people would always say to me I had anxiety. I
Speaker 1: did some things. It went away, and then it came back.
Speaker 1: And because it came back, it's almost like they don't
Speaker 1: do anything about it because they think we'll forget it.
Speaker 1: This is this isn't fixable, this is terminal, to put
Speaker 1: it in a weird way, and they see it almost
Speaker 1: as a failing on their part or an unluckiness or
Speaker 1: oh my god, I must have it so bad. But
Speaker 1: there's no point in getting rid of it. It's gonna
Speaker 1: keep coming back. Maybe there's a little disappointment that seeps
Speaker 1: in where you think, well, why would I try to
Speaker 1: get rid of it again? It's just going to come back.
Speaker 1: And I think everybody's looking at it incorrectly. The way
Speaker 1: I look at it is sometimes I think of you know,
Speaker 1: anxieties as there. It's sort of like it's kind of
Speaker 1: just in your system, if that makes sense. And sometimes
Speaker 1: it's dormant and sometimes it's back, sometimes it's quiet, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's allowed, or it's not necessarily that anxiety came back.
Speaker 1: But the notion that you it's weird because anxiety is
Speaker 1: something we've control over UM once it hits us, but
Speaker 1: we don't always have control over it happening. So it's
Speaker 1: it's hard to put it this way, but we see
Speaker 1: anxiety is something we have control over in the sense
Speaker 1: of if we get rid of it, we have now
Speaker 1: mastered it never coming back. And that's not quite how
Speaker 1: it works. We can control it in the moment through
Speaker 1: breathing and various cognitive behavior therapies that we do with
Speaker 1: our thoughts UM, and we can control it to a
Speaker 1: certain degree. Rights everyone is on a different spectrum of
Speaker 1: anxiety or anxiety disorder, but in general there are things
Speaker 1: we can do where we can at least feel a
Speaker 1: sense of control. We can help to calm it back
Speaker 1: down UM or even help alleviate it, or work through
Speaker 1: situations that used to scare us driving on the highway,
Speaker 1: getting on an aeroplane, you know, being in a crowded elevator.
Speaker 1: Whatever it is for you, But I think for me,
Speaker 1: the biggest through line to everything is always the signs
Speaker 1: of almost this lack of self esteem or beating ourselves up.
Speaker 1: You know, I feel like people almost embrace when anxiety
Speaker 1: comes back. Great, you know, here's another opportunity to beat
Speaker 1: myself up, another thing I failed up. You know, we
Speaker 1: fall into that. So what I love about Drew's story
Speaker 1: is that his anxiety came back and and he'll he'll
Speaker 1: tell this in his own words, but just to give
Speaker 1: you the headlines, Drew had his first panic attack right
Speaker 1: when he was out of college. He had never had
Speaker 1: any kind of anxiety or panic. It really through him.
Speaker 1: He thought he was dying. You know the story. It's
Speaker 1: probably happened to you. He found a book that really
Speaker 1: helped him. It was a book by the Australian author
Speaker 1: Clear Weeks, and the book was called Passed Through Panic Um.
Speaker 1: The book has different names depending on what country it's
Speaker 1: published in. But it really helped him and he learned
Speaker 1: some tools and then his panic attacks and his anxiety
Speaker 1: dissipated and was gone for about ten years, and then
Speaker 1: it came back. And what he realized was, as he says,
Speaker 1: he didn't work hard enough to get rid of it
Speaker 1: the first time. And you'll hear us talk about it
Speaker 1: in the interview. He doesn't mean to put himself down
Speaker 1: or disugst that you guys aren't working hard enough. He
Speaker 1: just means he didn't need it enough. He didn't need
Speaker 1: the recovery enough two do enough of it that it
Speaker 1: would make more of a long lasting impact to where
Speaker 1: he would be okay, if you know, anxiety randomly came
Speaker 1: back here and there. He really thought it was one
Speaker 1: and done and over with, and when it came back,
Speaker 1: something happened to him where he completely forgot and he
Speaker 1: can't explain it to this day. He completely forgot about
Speaker 1: the book, he ad, the tools he used, and just
Speaker 1: didn't do the work again. So that's sort of the
Speaker 1: overarching theme of this conversation is the notion of what
Speaker 1: to do an anxiety comes back, what it means, what
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean, and just how there is so much hope.
Speaker 1: And then I'm really inspired by the way Drew really
Speaker 1: just doesn't really have anxiety or panic anymore. And and
Speaker 1: he used to be, you know, completely agoraphobic, not even
Speaker 1: able to leave his home because it got so bad.
Speaker 1: So I will stop talking and I will let you
Speaker 1: listen to this episode. But just a few words about Drew.
Speaker 1: He's the creator and host of The Anxious Truth, a
Speaker 1: slightly unorthodox anxiety podcast. It's been going on since. There's
Speaker 1: over a million downloads and growing. He also sends out
Speaker 1: a daily daily This man has really put in the
Speaker 1: work a daily free newsletter every morning called The Anxious Morning,
Speaker 1: and you can read a little something about the topic
Speaker 1: of the day. And it's also of lable of something
Speaker 1: you can listen to. Having suffered with anxiety, panic disorder,
Speaker 1: a gore phobia, and depression several times over a twenty
Speaker 1: year period, Drew got it together once and for all
Speaker 1: in two thousand eight. Since then, life has been happy, productive,
Speaker 1: and quote normal. For the last fifteen years, Drew has
Speaker 1: been active in the online anxiety community, working to use
Speaker 1: his experience and understanding to help those that are following
Speaker 1: down the path he has traveled. His no nonsense approach
Speaker 1: to these problems, and his willingness to provide direct, actionable
Speaker 1: advice even when it might not be easy to hear,
Speaker 1: has established him as a unique voice in the anxiety
Speaker 1: recovery community. Drew published two books on anxiety and anxiety recovery.
Speaker 1: One is called an Anxiety Story and another one called
Speaker 1: The Anxious Truth. Um, he is an Amazon bestselling author.
Speaker 1: So let's jump in to my conversation Withdrew when anxiety
Speaker 1: comes back In that book, you all the journey of
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I just said journey kill me. Hey
Speaker 1: when I say that word, I have literally said that myself.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I just said vision board kill me.
Speaker 1: I've had these conversations with people, so I hear you.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to go. You know what I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have to do because I keep saying this word. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna need to pull up the sores dot com someday
Speaker 1: and write down alternate words. But anyway, for now, your
Speaker 1: journey of panic attacks and your first panic attack was
Speaker 1: right after college. And what I love about your description
Speaker 1: of it is a lot of people will go to
Speaker 1: the hospital with what they think is a heart attack
Speaker 1: and it turns out to be a panic attack. You
Speaker 1: had a very similar experience to me, and so I'm
Speaker 1: sure a million other people and I hope a million
Speaker 1: people are listening, Which is it's not that you thought
Speaker 1: you were having a heart attack. You thought it was,
Speaker 1: as you called it, the precursor to death, right, So
Speaker 1: you had your d as Asian deep personalization feelings, which
Speaker 1: listeners I talked about on a previous episode with Josh Fletcher,
Speaker 1: and those feelings I imagine I haven't died yet, um
Speaker 1: or maybe what it feels like to go through the
Speaker 1: tunnel and you feel like any minute you're gonna see
Speaker 1: the light and you're gonna be on the other side
Speaker 1: or whatever there is, or you're gonna be dead, and
Speaker 1: you just kind of sat there having the panic attack
Speaker 1: which you didn't know, which you thought was the precursor
Speaker 1: to death, going I'm dying. I'm not even gonna wake up.
Speaker 1: My mom goes, why should she watch it? Can you?
Speaker 1: Can you describe it in your own words? I can
Speaker 1: tot you do that, and I'm sure most people could
Speaker 1: could understand this. And it's funny because in that book,
Speaker 1: that's the part that gets most feedback, like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: you describe my experience perfectly. But we all share such
Speaker 1: a common experience. I was I was actually still in school,
Speaker 1: is my sophomore year at you b I was home
Speaker 1: at spring break and like in the house I grew
Speaker 1: up in, and everything was going great. I got like
Speaker 1: a four point out great point average, Like who slides
Speaker 1: into padick disorder and has a four point out like
Speaker 1: this guy. Right, it was stupid sense, But everything was
Speaker 1: going really well, and I remember I was just hanging
Speaker 1: out and I was reading a book. I was in
Speaker 1: bed and listen to music, and uh, all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I was like that weird. I never you know, it's
Speaker 1: funny in retrospect. We can talk about this if you want.
Speaker 1: I did experience the realization and deep personalization when I
Speaker 1: was little. I just didn't know what it was, and
Speaker 1: that only hit me a couple of years ago that
Speaker 1: I realized, Oh, when everybody felt like there was so
Speaker 1: far away, that's what that was. But anyway, so I
Speaker 1: was hit with de realization and everything felt weird. But
Speaker 1: deep personalization. I felt like it was outside myself. And
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys can understand if you're listening, you
Speaker 1: know what that feels like. It was terrifying. I had
Speaker 1: never experienced that before. And then I immediately became deathly
Speaker 1: afraid of the sensations I was having, and my heart
Speaker 1: was pounding and I started sweating and I felt I
Speaker 1: couldn't breathe, and you you all know what a panic
Speaker 1: attack feels like, but I didn't know it was a
Speaker 1: panic attack, and I thought that de realization and that
Speaker 1: deep personalization feeling. I truly interpreted it as it's been
Speaker 1: a good run nineteen years. I did, Okay, I guess
Speaker 1: I'm out, Like I mean, I'm being I'm joking about it,
Speaker 1: but I truly, in that moment, that's how I interpreted it.
Speaker 1: This is what it feels like when you don't oh,
Speaker 1: I I totally related. I was in high school having
Speaker 1: that feeling in my French class, and I thought, wow,
Speaker 1: this is I was kind of death obsessed, you know, um,
Speaker 1: kind of an anxious neurotic person. And you know, the
Speaker 1: music I was listening to certainly didn't help me not
Speaker 1: think about death all the time. I listened to the
Speaker 1: Smiths a lot. You're young, and I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: I was very dramatic and like writing in my diary
Speaker 1: all the time about you know, I'd love to sit
Speaker 1: in a seminary and think these people had lives and
Speaker 1: everyone just drives by it. And uh so when I
Speaker 1: was having my little panic attack, well it wasn't little
Speaker 1: in my French class, I remember thinking, oh, this is
Speaker 1: why I'm so obsessed with death. I knew somewhere that
Speaker 1: I was going to die young and it's happening right now.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting though that you didn't go wake up
Speaker 1: your mom. You just thought you might just lay there.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, well, if I think about that,
Speaker 1: Like the thought process was so strange, like in each moment,
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, this is it. There's no point because
Speaker 1: this is it, this is where you go, I'm going
Speaker 1: right now. And then it was well, I didn't, but
Speaker 1: this is the moment now, and then this is the
Speaker 1: moment now. And clearly that moment never came because that
Speaker 1: was many years ago. But that was my interpretation. It
Speaker 1: wasn't oh my god, I'm having a heart attack or
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm having a stroke, or oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm having some sort of embolism. It was literally just
Speaker 1: I guess this is what it feels like when you die.
Speaker 1: But it was terrifying. I'm you know, in retrospect, I
Speaker 1: could talk about it and joke and make make it
Speaker 1: turn a little bit humorous. It's humorous because of the
Speaker 1: absurdity of it in the end, which is the nature
Speaker 1: of panic as it is. But I was this is it,
Speaker 1: and I remember in the book, I even write the story.
Speaker 1: So I know you went through it, but like I
Speaker 1: got myself. I went and splashed water in my face.
Speaker 1: I did all the typical, the usual panic attack things
Speaker 1: that everybody tries to do. I didn't know why I
Speaker 1: was doing that, but I did them. Um, laid against
Speaker 1: the cold tile in my bathroom to feel the cold tile,
Speaker 1: you know, tried bad. And then I kind of limped
Speaker 1: into the living room and said on the the shitty
Speaker 1: powder blue bark a lounger, and like then my mom
Speaker 1: did come out. She heard me up. She's like, how
Speaker 1: you do? Are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, what
Speaker 1: the two creative? I made some really crazy decisions in
Speaker 1: my life. That was one of the top three. Why
Speaker 1: would I say, Yo, sure you I'm good. Do you
Speaker 1: think that there's something deep down that you did know
Speaker 1: you were okay? I do? I do? There's something about
Speaker 1: that that I mean, I won't. I don't know. We're
Speaker 1: never going to truly know that answer. I'm sure, but
Speaker 1: I had to know because at each moment that passes
Speaker 1: that you don't die. Look, this is the crux of
Speaker 1: the lesson of recovery. Anyway, that takes a long time
Speaker 1: to learn. But in each moment that like, well I
Speaker 1: still didn't die, and it still didn't die, and it
Speaker 1: still didn't die. And I did reach a point maybe
Speaker 1: an hour or so into that, as it's rising and
Speaker 1: falling and rising and falling because you know, John Aine
Speaker 1: will do that, that I realized like, well, maybe I'm
Speaker 1: not dying. Maybe I don't know what this is and
Speaker 1: this is terrifying still, but maybe I'm actually not dying
Speaker 1: right now. I remember having that realization and it wasn't
Speaker 1: you long after she came out and asked, you know,
Speaker 1: you okay, and then she went back to bed, like
Speaker 1: the worst line of my life, and you just went
Speaker 1: back to bed, thanks, Mom, like you know it was
Speaker 1: she didn't know. I didn't say anything. Shay didn't know,
Speaker 1: but that's I don't know. Maybe some part of me
Speaker 1: did understand. But I was coming to the realization, well,
Speaker 1: I'm still not dead. I'm still not dead. I'm still
Speaker 1: not dead. So I knew I was wrong. I could
Speaker 1: tell that I was I was wrong. I still didn't
Speaker 1: know what it was, though, And so I want to
Speaker 1: drill down into this just because I've gotten emails from
Speaker 1: people that are like, you know, you always say on
Speaker 1: your show, and these experts say panic attacks last time minutes,
Speaker 1: but mine last an hour. And I know what they're saying,
Speaker 1: because I've certainly had all day panic attacks. It wasn't
Speaker 1: just anxiety, um, but literally like you cannot from start
Speaker 1: to finish panic for one hour straight. Like like you said,
Speaker 1: it's it's up and down, it comes and goes right.
Speaker 1: So for anyone listening that you know wants to say
Speaker 1: I have them for an hour though, so mine are bad,
Speaker 1: it's like, well, just you know, look at that, because
Speaker 1: it's not It's probably not literally no relief for an hour,
Speaker 1: because that that's just not positively physiologically possible. It doesn't
Speaker 1: work that way. And one of the insidious things about
Speaker 1: panic and anxiety in the irrational fear that comes with it.
Speaker 1: And by the way, the fear is always real. That's
Speaker 1: not not fake fear. Don't anybody tell you that it's
Speaker 1: in your head. The fear is a real there's no
Speaker 1: doubt about that. But it's irrational because there's no underlying
Speaker 1: danger beneath it. We just think there is. The one
Speaker 1: of the insidious things about that situation is it will
Speaker 1: insist that this is the worst panic attack I've ever had.
Speaker 1: How many people have you talked to? Many? And you
Speaker 1: may have been one of them, And for a while
Speaker 1: I was one of them. Every panic attack was the
Speaker 1: worst one ever. This was the worst one. This is
Speaker 1: the worst one. But in reality, if you get hooked,
Speaker 1: if you had a bunch of doctors around you and
Speaker 1: they hooked you up to all kinds of monitoring devices,
Speaker 1: the physiology but look the same in every single one.
Speaker 1: The interpretation changes. But yes, it's an undulating wave. There's
Speaker 1: that spike and it comes down. It's like you just
Speaker 1: never come down to zero. So therefore you will say
Speaker 1: my panic lasts for three days straight because you think
Speaker 1: it ends when you have zero anxiety. That's not that's
Speaker 1: not I work. We'll be right back. So when you're
Speaker 1: sitting there going, well, I'm dying in the most fucked
Speaker 1: up way, that is a form of acceptance, but it's
Speaker 1: not real acceptance. Right, So you talked later about you
Speaker 1: read this book by Claire Weeks. Is it called Passed
Speaker 1: Through Panic? That's one version of it. It actually has
Speaker 1: multiple titles depending on where in the world you live.
Speaker 1: I had I had it as hope and help for
Speaker 1: your nerves. Okay, it shows So she's an Australian author. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was a physician that works in the nineteen fifties
Speaker 1: and she b was a kind of a pioneer in
Speaker 1: describing these problems too late people. So you go through
Speaker 1: her books and you you learn some some techniques and
Speaker 1: one of them is acceptance. And so take us through
Speaker 1: what true acceptance looks like. Because when I've used this
Speaker 1: word with people before, you know, it seems like you're saying, well,
Speaker 1: accept it. You know it's never going to change, And uh,
Speaker 1: I don't want to accept it, right, I mean, I
Speaker 1: do use the word acceptance. And she also wrote a
Speaker 1: lot about floating. You have to float through panic and
Speaker 1: float and accept and float and accept, and I don't
Speaker 1: I don't like those words. I think of Dr Weeks
Speaker 1: had the benefit of the Internet in her day, she
Speaker 1: would stop using those words because they create tremendous amounts
Speaker 1: of confusion. Acceptance does not mean liking it, nor does
Speaker 1: it mean wanting it. I use the word surrender, and
Speaker 1: what I actually learned to do after reading Dctor Weeks
Speaker 1: is and technically I surrendered that surrender. That's surrender. Then
Speaker 1: that's the word that I like to use. But in
Speaker 1: the end the it's a practice of literally giving up
Speaker 1: the fight, not giving up your quest to recover. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean giving up, but in the moment, it means
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm clearly not successful in fighting this thing
Speaker 1: when it happens, trying to stop it, manage it, knock
Speaker 1: it down, manage the symptoms. So I'm just gonna let
Speaker 1: it come and get me, because it keeps failing to
Speaker 1: take me down. As much as it threatens to, it
Speaker 1: never does. So I'm just gonna let it, let it happen.
Speaker 1: And the first time I ever did that, and that
Speaker 1: was after reading Hope and Help for Your Nerves, was
Speaker 1: sitting the driveway and in the passenger see the car
Speaker 1: I wrote that wrote out in the book, and I
Speaker 1: felt it coming. You know what it feels like when
Speaker 1: that panic is rising and you know what's gonna happen, Like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is happening now. And I remember thinking, I asked
Speaker 1: my mother was in the car with me, and ask you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: of the car, I'm like, go in the house. I
Speaker 1: just got to sit here. She was like really, and
Speaker 1: I'm like yep, And I was like here we go,
Speaker 1: And I literally just slunk back into the chair and
Speaker 1: I and I had to make a moment and there
Speaker 1: was a lot of bravery in that moment. I don't
Speaker 1: take it that that's important, that's part of it. That said, Okay,
Speaker 1: you have to come and get me. Now, you have
Speaker 1: to come and kill me now. And I I just, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a hard statement to make. But in the end,
Speaker 1: it never does. It never does. It never kills you,
Speaker 1: it never makes you crazy, It doesn't make you pass out.
Speaker 1: It unless you have exaggerated vesa of vegal response, which
Speaker 1: we can talk about that, but most people don't have that.
Speaker 1: You'd know if you do. But it doesn't do all
Speaker 1: this horrible things. So I just I just let my
Speaker 1: body slump back into the seat of this escort. It
Speaker 1: was a real sweet wide and I let it come
Speaker 1: and get me. And I was astounded. It was terrifying,
Speaker 1: terrifying because that is not what we are designed to do.
Speaker 1: We are designed to hang on like hot death, to
Speaker 1: not let bad things happen to us. And I had
Speaker 1: to do exactly the opposite because Dr Weeks said so
Speaker 1: in the book. And when I felt it peaque, you
Speaker 1: know that moment when you start to feel better and
Speaker 1: you're a superhero, like you know what's going away. The
Speaker 1: adrenaline kicks in and you're like I can do anything.
Speaker 1: You're like the god of thunder at that moment. That
Speaker 1: came so fast. And when I say so fast, I
Speaker 1: would say ten minutes, eight to ten minutes maybe maybe,
Speaker 1: And I remember because I remember looking at the clock
Speaker 1: on the dashboard and like that ten minutes. A panic
Speaker 1: is as a lot, but you know how it is.
Speaker 1: You would go through hours of it, up and down
Speaker 1: and up and down and up and down. And this
Speaker 1: was like, holy sh it, like it worked. I got
Speaker 1: out of a car and I was like moon walking
Speaker 1: down the driveway. I was so I was shaking, I
Speaker 1: was sweating. I was still not good, but I was
Speaker 1: so freaking happy. That was amazing experience. And never forget it.
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, I think it's just dawning on
Speaker 1: me that that ten minutes of panic that you let
Speaker 1: completely take you over, then that makes it completely go away.
Speaker 1: So you have that adrenaline superhero feeling and then it's
Speaker 1: really over, like the end of a horror movie when
Speaker 1: everything is just quiet, you know, and I don't mean
Speaker 1: one with a sequel where the monster comes back, but
Speaker 1: the real end. And but if you try to stop it,
Speaker 1: sometimes you'll get down to an okay enough level so
Speaker 1: that it's the end of a horror movie. But there's
Speaker 1: gonna be a sequel. The monster comes back. And so
Speaker 1: that is really important that not only does sitting there
Speaker 1: bravely just letting it take over you, surrendering to it,
Speaker 1: not only will that help for future panic attacks, but
Speaker 1: in that moment, it's really going to pretty much kill
Speaker 1: that one. So you're not having this two hour up
Speaker 1: and down thing. Except I always say it's to me,
Speaker 1: the intent is the magic in the recovery process, because
Speaker 1: if you look at this as this is the way
Speaker 1: you stop a panic attack, you're kind of fucked. And
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say that because I we
Speaker 1: don't do not appear to be a friendly, friendly podcast.
Speaker 1: We do not okay cool um. And I think, honestly,
Speaker 1: I believe that in my heart, because there will be
Speaker 1: times when you're not so good at that. So as
Speaker 1: much as I practiced it over many many years, there
Speaker 1: were times in the process when I when I failed
Speaker 1: at that I and I got carried away and I
Speaker 1: started fighting it again, and then it wouldn't go away.
Speaker 1: So The intent that matters so much is I must
Speaker 1: surrender to this to learn a lesson that will serve
Speaker 1: me the next time. It is super critical, and so
Speaker 1: many people do not want to hear that. They just
Speaker 1: want to know what do I do? What part of
Speaker 1: my body do I tap? What do I sniff? What
Speaker 1: do I rub on my wrists? I'm not that guy. No,
Speaker 1: you know, Drew does not have any essential oils to
Speaker 1: sell us um. But I do think I love the
Speaker 1: way you're framing it, which is it's a lesson, it's
Speaker 1: you know. I think these can be really motivating things
Speaker 1: for certain types who want to look at it that way.
Speaker 1: You know, this is your I don't know this is
Speaker 1: your I'm trying to say the word journey, but this
Speaker 1: is what you have to go through to come out
Speaker 1: the other side. And if you want to look at
Speaker 1: it as I'm going through my vision quest here. But
Speaker 1: I think the thing is, you know, once so if
Speaker 1: the panic ever comes back in your life, you know,
Speaker 1: if you slay it for a while and it comes back,
Speaker 1: I do think the natural response is to go back
Speaker 1: to fighting it because it just is, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: it's our normal instinct and it's very hard to learn.
Speaker 1: I know it sounds crazy, but in this moment you
Speaker 1: gotta go against your normal instinct to stay alive. But
Speaker 1: it will it will help you feel like you're going
Speaker 1: to stay alive. Your panic is no different than anyone else.
Speaker 1: No one's ever done of a panic attack. And you know,
Speaker 1: my thing used to be, well, I'll be the first
Speaker 1: to one. So I wanted to be the first one
Speaker 1: to die of anything, right, why not me? I get that,
Speaker 1: I understand that. Yeah, and so okay, so now you're
Speaker 1: you're in your book and just like ten years goes
Speaker 1: by and you're fine, you know, you're like, I did it,
Speaker 1: and then it comes back again and you and you
Speaker 1: forget that you even had this clear week's book, You
Speaker 1: forget all the stuff you did, and now it comes
Speaker 1: back and it gets worse. Now you're at the point
Speaker 1: where you're hitting, uh, monophobia and agoraphobia. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us what those things are? I actually had not even
Speaker 1: been that familiar with monophobia and then realized, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I've actually experienced it a lot. Yeah, so you write
Speaker 1: ten years later, now I had that episode, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it was in a few months. I had
Speaker 1: pretty much what I felt was like, I'm good, I'm
Speaker 1: good to go, and I went along with my life
Speaker 1: and didn't think about it much anymore. And then it
Speaker 1: came back and m I still owned the book. I
Speaker 1: still had the book. I cannot explain why I did
Speaker 1: not return to that thing. I know why in retrospect,
Speaker 1: I know why because I didn't have to work hard enough.
Speaker 1: I didn't learn anything. I just did stuff and it
Speaker 1: went away. And Okay, that was great for ten years,
Speaker 1: but it didn't actually learn So when it came back,
Speaker 1: I didn't have a skill set. I didn't have enough knowledge.
Speaker 1: I wasn't I didn't really understand what I did. I
Speaker 1: just did stuff. So anyway, I failed to do it.
Speaker 1: And yes, it did progress because I would fight it
Speaker 1: and I would avoid. So when I would panick on
Speaker 1: the highway, WOULD stopped writing and stopped driving on the highway.
Speaker 1: And when I would panic in the supermarket, I stopped
Speaker 1: going to the supermarket. And when I panicked in my office,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to go to my I own a
Speaker 1: company and I couldn't go to the office. That's pretty embarrassing.
Speaker 1: That sucks. Yeah, it's better though than having to explain
Speaker 1: it to the boss. In a weird way, as crazy
Speaker 1: as it sounds. Look, I mean, if you're gonna wind
Speaker 1: up agophobic, be the boss, because yes we can joke
Speaker 1: about that, but that's true. Um. But yeah, I disappeared
Speaker 1: from my own business. Um, and I was stuck in
Speaker 1: my house and I was terrified to be alone. Uh.
Speaker 1: And that's monophobia. Now, monophobia is a word that a
Speaker 1: lot of us throw around. I have to be honest
Speaker 1: with you. I do not know if you would find
Speaker 1: monophobia in the DSM. And maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't.
Speaker 1: I don't know. But it's a it's a very very
Speaker 1: common part of the anxiety and agoraphobia complex. Monophobia is
Speaker 1: where you are terrified to be alone. And this has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with having anxious attachment or anything like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this isn't like a, uh, your mother abandoned you. This
Speaker 1: is literally just like you might not even want to
Speaker 1: hang out with people emotionally. You're just so afraid that
Speaker 1: if if someone's not there monitoring you, you will die.
Speaker 1: This is I am still deathly afraid of my own
Speaker 1: body and my mother's sensations, and I'm afraid of my thoughts,
Speaker 1: and somebody must be here to save me, and save
Speaker 1: me might be literally get me to a hospital, or
Speaker 1: perform cprmy or might be well, they have to calm
Speaker 1: me down. And if there's nobody around to save you,
Speaker 1: then you'll just left with you and the monster air quotes,
Speaker 1: and that's how monophobia develops. I will I posted not
Speaker 1: too long on social media. Is a true story. And
Speaker 1: it's funny now, but at the time it wasn't funny.
Speaker 1: I had a Rhodesian ridgeback dog at the time. She
Speaker 1: was great lex He was an awesome dog, and I
Speaker 1: remember literally spending a tremendous amount of mental energy trying
Speaker 1: to convince myself that if need big, the dog could
Speaker 1: somehow dial the phone. That is a true story. Listen,
Speaker 1: I've seen YouTube videos where they do that. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: and all honestly like that, irrational fear becomes so self
Speaker 1: serving and so all consuming and so powerful in the
Speaker 1: way twist things in your head that I would put
Speaker 1: the cordless was a big, old cordless phone in the
Speaker 1: late nineties. It wasn't it wasn't pretty, And I would
Speaker 1: put it on the floor next to the dog, and
Speaker 1: like you would lay next to me all the time
Speaker 1: because she would stick with me when I was feeling
Speaker 1: it wasn't feeling good. She was great, and somehow I
Speaker 1: in my mind, why I found some solace in the
Speaker 1: idea that maybe she could actually like hit a button
Speaker 1: if I if I'm able to at least hit the button.
Speaker 1: And you know, I literally went through that. I was
Speaker 1: terrified to be alone that, But I mean it's in
Speaker 1: a in a weird way, you were soothing yourself, right,
Speaker 1: it gave you some comfort even though it was made up.
Speaker 1: I was trying because I knew that there's no chance.
Speaker 1: He was an awesome dog, but she doesn't know how
Speaker 1: to dial phone. Dude, Like, like, I knew this in
Speaker 1: my heart, but yet somehows I was grasping at anything
Speaker 1: that might make me feel better. But I did. I
Speaker 1: became a garphobic and that happened to me kind of
Speaker 1: twice in my life after that, and uh, agoraphobia. I
Speaker 1: did a podcast episode on a garaphobia. This is pretty simple.
Speaker 1: And the million dollar question is why does somebody have
Speaker 1: a panic attack or multiple panic attacks in the life
Speaker 1: and never developed panic disorder or garaphobia Because the progression
Speaker 1: to a gooraphobia, which is not by the way, a
Speaker 1: fear of leaving your house. It's a fear of how
Speaker 1: you will feel in certain context and situations that fear fear,
Speaker 1: fear of attack, fear of your panic symptoms in the
Speaker 1: thoughts and wherever they happen. Then I can't go there. Okay,
Speaker 1: So panic attack leads to panic attacks, which leads a
Speaker 1: panic disorder, which leads to avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, got
Speaker 1: avoid my triggers. Got to know my triggers and avoid them.
Speaker 1: We hear all the time bad advice. Avoid, avoid, avoid,
Speaker 1: avoid means you run out of places to be air
Speaker 1: quote safe, and most of the time you wind up
Speaker 1: that your home. For some people, one piece of furniture
Speaker 1: in their home is the only safe place. That's terrible
Speaker 1: and heartbreaking. But I work with people all the time
Speaker 1: then are literally stuck on their sofa, yeah, or in
Speaker 1: the bed. That's a go phobia because what happens when
Speaker 1: you if you're a gorphobic, Um, is there something in
Speaker 1: your brain that I don't know, like somehow prevents you
Speaker 1: from panicking at home? Like is there a built in
Speaker 1: protection or can people start to develop Oh my god,
Speaker 1: now I'm it's coming from inside the house. Now I'm
Speaker 1: panicking in my safe place. That's always terrible, terrible because
Speaker 1: most of the time the common thing is somebody who's
Speaker 1: I'm safe at home, I'm modified to gorphobia. Is I'm
Speaker 1: okay as long as I can leave the house, as
Speaker 1: long as I have my partner with me, or my
Speaker 1: mom or my sister or my best friend, those my
Speaker 1: safe people, Okay, I can go out with them, and
Speaker 1: it's okay. But it just it's really just the ultimate
Speaker 1: expression of avoidance as an anxiety strategy, run a muck.
Speaker 1: It's avoidance left unchecked. So every place that you experience panic,
Speaker 1: you leave that place, the panic goes away, which was
Speaker 1: gonna anyway, no matter what happens, it was always going
Speaker 1: to go away. And then you associate, well, I have
Speaker 1: I can't go there because it will trigger that if
Speaker 1: I go again, And for some people that even becomes
Speaker 1: I can't go to the kitchen, I can't go into
Speaker 1: the bathroom, I can't go into the living room, I
Speaker 1: can't stand by the form on tour. It's terrible. It's
Speaker 1: literally like this learning mechanism run a muck gone off
Speaker 1: the rails. And do most people come out of this?
Speaker 1: I mean, is it? Yeah? I did a lot of
Speaker 1: people do. Yeah, it's not a hopeless situation that. The
Speaker 1: thing that sucks about that is how did I get
Speaker 1: out of it? Well? I started doing the things that
Speaker 1: that you know, we don't. I mean, let you lead
Speaker 1: the way here, but we're talked about talking. But in
Speaker 1: a way, that was it. I had to understand that, Like,
Speaker 1: well clearly intellectually, when you ask, does my brain somehow
Speaker 1: think that I'm safer in my house? You know that logically,
Speaker 1: like I'm the same person in my living room that
Speaker 1: I am in in Midtown, or I am in North Jersey,
Speaker 1: or I am in California or in China. You know
Speaker 1: this already. But yet that that fear center in your brain,
Speaker 1: you're made the lid has decided no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: None of those places is safe. Only this is safe.
Speaker 1: So the only way to go through it is to say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm intentionally going to go and start doing those things
Speaker 1: that I think will make me panic. And if I
Speaker 1: do panic, I'm going to have to use that surrender
Speaker 1: method and keep learning again and again and end that
Speaker 1: it keeps failing to live up to its threat, It
Speaker 1: keeps failing to take me down, It keeps failing to
Speaker 1: kill me. It keeps failing to make me crazy, and
Speaker 1: and so yeah, it's that it's those learning those lessons.
Speaker 1: So you take the same exact mechanism that teaches you
Speaker 1: to be afraid of your own body, and you throw
Speaker 1: in reverse and use it to learn not to be
Speaker 1: afraid of your body anymore. Not to stop the anxiety,
Speaker 1: not be afraid of it. That's the first goal. Here's
Speaker 1: another one of my metaphors. It reminds me of an
Speaker 1: internatural I don't know if you've seen circumstances where somebody
Speaker 1: is being bullied by an internet tural, some anonymous something,
Speaker 1: and they're going back and forth and everyone's anxiety is
Speaker 1: out of control, and it's until someone says, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call you. Let me call you, um, let's
Speaker 1: talk about this. I've seen a few things on the
Speaker 1: Internet where people have done this and the person once
Speaker 1: you call them is like completely backing down. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I didn't know what I was doing, you know,
Speaker 1: And uh, It's it's sort of like panic. It's like
Speaker 1: if I fight my panic, I'm fighting with internet roles.
Speaker 1: Everyone's getting more anxious and if I just say you
Speaker 1: know what, what's your number? I'm going to call you
Speaker 1: and and say it to my face, you know, like
Speaker 1: what is your deal? And the band is like, you're
Speaker 1: fighting the troll on their terms. So when you keep
Speaker 1: trying to find strategies, I need to find strategies. I
Speaker 1: need to find my triggers to avoid them and what
Speaker 1: short circuits it. And again I'm not picking on things.
Speaker 1: It's just I'm gonna tell you my my perspective. And
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not for everybody. But when you try
Speaker 1: to fight it that way or manage it or stop
Speaker 1: it or halt it, you're fighting it on its terms,
Speaker 1: and it wins every time. If you're if you're listening
Speaker 1: to Jen right now and you've been trying to manage
Speaker 1: anxiety and panic attacks for years and kind of failing, well,
Speaker 1: you have to sometimes consider them maybe I should stop
Speaker 1: fighting it. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I love how you say on there, it's on
Speaker 1: its terms and you'll lose that every time that you
Speaker 1: just we just don't have the ability to fight that war.
Speaker 1: I have experienced that and just funny ten second story
Speaker 1: on Instagram. You know, I do a lot of work
Speaker 1: with with Josh and those folks on Instagram, And we
Speaker 1: do have a troll that the entiring iety community has
Speaker 1: one person that's angry at us, and I have in
Speaker 1: the middle of an Instagram live said Hey, come on,
Speaker 1: come on camera, come on with me, come on, and
Speaker 1: then they're then they're gone, Yeah, they're they're probably angry
Speaker 1: with you, guys because you're shining light on stuff they
Speaker 1: need to do. Who knows why, but yes, you do
Speaker 1: have to say, like, all right, come on, let's talk
Speaker 1: about this. Come on in and show me what you got.
Speaker 1: And since it turns out it's got a lot. Don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong, I'm not saying that it isn't. Anxiety
Speaker 1: is a powerful thing, and that physiologic response is a
Speaker 1: powerful thing, and it is very scary. But in the end,
Speaker 1: the threat that you have perceived it as is not real.
Speaker 1: It's not going to take you down. We'll continue the
Speaker 1: interview on the flip side of a quick message from
Speaker 1: our sponsors. So let's go back to the what happens
Speaker 1: in those ten years that you weren't panicking anymore. So
Speaker 1: I have a lot of people say to me, Oh,
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna check out your podcast, because you know,
Speaker 1: I had anxiety and then I got rid of it,
Speaker 1: and then it came back and and I just don't
Speaker 1: know what to do anymore. So so the story they're
Speaker 1: telling is they had anxiety. They did every single thing
Speaker 1: you could do, they did it perfectly, and they are
Speaker 1: so you know, they are so bad at this and
Speaker 1: they're so unlucky and they're so unwell that it came
Speaker 1: back and oh my god. And I always know, um,
Speaker 1: not in a blaming them way, but you know, you
Speaker 1: probably didn't try everything, and you probably didn't try enough
Speaker 1: things that work for you, and you probably it probably
Speaker 1: just kind of went away on its own, and you
Speaker 1: thought you were safe, and you see it as a
Speaker 1: personal failure that it came back. I don't really know
Speaker 1: how to look at it in those terms of where
Speaker 1: it goes when we don't have it for ten years.
Speaker 1: But you say, looking back on it, um, the reason
Speaker 1: that when your panic and anxiety came back and you
Speaker 1: didn't think to use your old techniques, that was because
Speaker 1: the old techniques, when you were using them the first
Speaker 1: time that you got rid of everything that you hadn't
Speaker 1: worked hard enough. It was only a few months, and
Speaker 1: so in other words, are you saying like almost if
Speaker 1: if we're talking about an alcoholic, like you hadn't hit
Speaker 1: a bottom yet in a way you hadn't. You hadn't
Speaker 1: really had to work so so hard at it that
Speaker 1: became habit. What did you mean by didn't work hard enough? Yes,
Speaker 1: I think that's probably it, you know. And then and
Speaker 1: thank you for pointing that because it didn't work hard
Speaker 1: enough is probably a very wrong I should not have
Speaker 1: made that statement because that hints it like you got
Speaker 1: a grind man, and this is about you know, this
Speaker 1: is not a hardcore character thing at all. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: didn't work. You didn't go through it enough. Right, It
Speaker 1: did not force my hand for whatever reason. At that
Speaker 1: point I read the book. I learned she was speaking
Speaker 1: right to me. Dr Weets was speaking right to me
Speaker 1: when I read the book, like I have that, I
Speaker 1: have that, I have that like I She was describing
Speaker 1: everything I was feeling, and so just knowing what it
Speaker 1: was was enough at that point, Oh, I have to
Speaker 1: do this, Okay, I can do this really scary thing.
Speaker 1: I did that scary thing, and and then I stopped
Speaker 1: being afraid and it sort of went away. But I
Speaker 1: didn't it didn't sink again enough, Like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I wish I could find words for this. You find
Speaker 1: a book you really love, you read it, and then
Speaker 1: you go back ten years later and you read it again.
Speaker 1: It's like, wow, there's a lot of stuff in this
Speaker 1: book that I missed the first time. Or a movie
Speaker 1: that you love so much that, like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: every time I watched The Big Lebowski, there's something funny
Speaker 1: you're in it, Like, you don't you have to keep
Speaker 1: going back to it, and I didn't have to for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, and that that turned out to be a
Speaker 1: bit problematic in a way. And I can't explain all
Speaker 1: of it j And I wish I could. I wish
Speaker 1: I could explain my decision to not pick up that
Speaker 1: book again and not work that process. I don't know why. Well,
Speaker 1: the fact that you can't explain it is I think
Speaker 1: the most interesting part and the most relatable part, which is,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes we just don't know. We don't
Speaker 1: know why we're doing things. Don't know. But I made it,
Speaker 1: and I don't know why I made it. All right,
Speaker 1: whatever that turned out this way, But it's a good
Speaker 1: insight for anyone who's saying, oh, my anxiety came back
Speaker 1: and I don't know why. It's like, is there something
Speaker 1: you're forgetting to do? Is there something that helped last time?
Speaker 1: Is you know, just take a look at that. Don't
Speaker 1: assume that because you did it already that it works
Speaker 1: for life. It's not like putting a protective stain resistant
Speaker 1: thing on your couch. You know. Um, even sunscreen you
Speaker 1: have to reapply hour, you know, you have to keep
Speaker 1: doing it. I like the sunscreen now just really good.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna steal that. Totally steal that. Please steal it
Speaker 1: to you for sure. Jen Kirkman has put on sunscreen. Um,
Speaker 1: so it's really good. But that's correct. People also assume that, like, well,
Speaker 1: people ask me all the time, well, well can you
Speaker 1: do you still have panic attacks? I'm like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I might have one or two a year maybe. I'm like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: then what's the point. Then you're not really recovered, then
Speaker 1: are you? Like they think they're catching me or they're
Speaker 1: calling me out fraud. So you had a panic attack, Like,
Speaker 1: but nobody ever said that you are guaranteed to never
Speaker 1: panic or never be anxious ever. Again, that would not
Speaker 1: be realistic human beings experienced anxiety, and many, many, many
Speaker 1: human beings they don't develop disordered anxiety, experienced panic attacks
Speaker 1: now and then their life. Many they just that just
Speaker 1: that they don't become controlling their lives, but they experienced
Speaker 1: at least is a part of life. So well. Also,
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, as a fellow and former daily
Speaker 1: ten times a day panic disorder stuffer for years. I'm
Speaker 1: talking undiagnosed for ten years at first and then very
Speaker 1: slowly recovered over fifteen more years. One or two a
Speaker 1: year to me is like saying zero. I think that's
Speaker 1: exactly right. I always I use a silly analogy. I'm
Speaker 1: the king of stupid analogies. So I use the analogy
Speaker 1: of chicken salad, and I tell people like, imagine, like,
Speaker 1: are you worried that a chicken salad sandwich might appear
Speaker 1: on your kitchen counter? And then the answer is like no,
Speaker 1: of course, I'm not worried about that, And then they'd
Speaker 1: laugh and we laugh, and I try and get a
Speaker 1: joke out of it, and like, well, you're not worried
Speaker 1: that a chicken salad sandwich will appear because you're not
Speaker 1: afraid of chicken salad. So I never worry I might
Speaker 1: have a panic attack today or I might not. But
Speaker 1: truly recovery is that it starts, it goes, it ends.
Speaker 1: I documented one on Instagram about six months ago, like
Speaker 1: the aftermath of it, and then it's over. And after
Speaker 1: you get done with the shakiness that lasts another half
Speaker 1: hour because that's just physiology. Then the event is over.
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting, I just realized, I love that
Speaker 1: that you're saying. The recovery is not fearing that one's
Speaker 1: going to show up out of the blue, um, not
Speaker 1: caring if one shows up better, and not caring. And
Speaker 1: you know, I, as long as I've been doing my
Speaker 1: recovery work, and it's literally been over thirty years, I
Speaker 1: am still not actively afraid of sitting here, you know,
Speaker 1: biting my nails. But if someone said to me, how
Speaker 1: would you feel, um if you had a couple of
Speaker 1: panic attacks this year, I'd go I would say, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm not only do I just not want to have them,
Speaker 1: but I think I do sometimes live in fear I'm
Speaker 1: going to have one. The thoughts passed through my head
Speaker 1: of things that are upcoming this year or something, Oh
Speaker 1: I hope I don't have a panic attack during that
Speaker 1: Now it comes, it goes. I don't think about it,
Speaker 1: but I do think I need to when I think
Speaker 1: those thoughts like really work on my um just being
Speaker 1: like I don't care, you know, I'm not quite they're
Speaker 1: all the time. So it's just cool to hear that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we can't just decide not to care. People
Speaker 1: hear me say that, they're like, how could you not
Speaker 1: care about something so terrible? Like, well, okay, I can
Speaker 1: acknowledge that it's terrible. I don't want to have a
Speaker 1: panic attack now at all. I don't like it. I
Speaker 1: don't welcome it. But the differences. You don't just decide
Speaker 1: to not care. You learn how to not care. I
Speaker 1: learned how to not anticipate it is probably more likely
Speaker 1: a better description. I don't anticipate it or worry about it.
Speaker 1: But there are times like I do let the thoughts
Speaker 1: stay around, and I will start anticipating something like I've
Speaker 1: gone through recently with you know, driving alone on the
Speaker 1: freeway and all that, and and I did banic, but
Speaker 1: it was because I absolutely let that anticipatory thought stay around,
Speaker 1: and I actually engaged it in conversation like an idiot. Yeah, never,
Speaker 1: And I tell people all the time. One of the
Speaker 1: things I teach a lot is like, no, in a dialogue,
Speaker 1: do not get in that conversation. Listen, we've all been
Speaker 1: in that and that you've been in that situation where
Speaker 1: a drunk dude is trying to get your number. You
Speaker 1: could turn your back. You can turn your back on them.
Speaker 1: You know you can. Um you can turn your back
Speaker 1: on that person. You'll still hear them jawing at you
Speaker 1: and being obnoxiously drunk, but you don't have to respond,
Speaker 1: and that that's key. And when you learn to do that,
Speaker 1: the what if I panic again turns into well, even
Speaker 1: if I panic again, okay, even if what if becomes
Speaker 1: even if oh I love that, Well, even if I panic,
Speaker 1: I'm okay, because the lesson of recovery over time is
Speaker 1: I'm okay across all context. Whether I panick it, that's
Speaker 1: a well, I don't get too technical, but in the end,
Speaker 1: what we really want to learn is not how to
Speaker 1: stop a panic attack, but to understand that when you're
Speaker 1: anxious or sad or happy or upset or panicky or whatever,
Speaker 1: you're always okay. We're designed to feel all of those things.
Speaker 1: It's Okay, you're okay in all the contexts. I love
Speaker 1: what if to even if genia is so simple, I
Speaker 1: didn't invent that. Somebody smarter than me, did I don't
Speaker 1: know who it just passed along to me. I don't, can't.
Speaker 1: I never take credit for sink. Oh well, I love it.
Speaker 1: Thank you for hearing whoever said it. So lastly, the
Speaker 1: notion you you just kind of mentioned the word, you know,
Speaker 1: spirituality in your book, and I'd love to talk about it,
Speaker 1: because you know, you're not a guru sitting on a
Speaker 1: mountain in a robe, and you're just a guy like
Speaker 1: I'm just some chicken. We're sitting here on the East
Speaker 1: coast talking And did you mean by that like there's
Speaker 1: a spirituality that that's kind of helped you with this too,
Speaker 1: or maybe you didn't say it like that and I'm projecting. Okay,
Speaker 1: Well I think all right, maybe you might be projecting.
Speaker 1: You saw the word spirituality. Okay, So here's the deal, Like,
Speaker 1: um I see, and again I understand that my message
Speaker 1: is not for everybody. I'm okay with that. Um I
Speaker 1: see no spiritual basis in this. So one of the
Speaker 1: things that I find fascinating and maybe I'd like to
Speaker 1: have you on my podcast one day too. I'd love
Speaker 1: to you. Come on. We'll talk about this how we
Speaker 1: could have come from two completely different I mean we
Speaker 1: could not have been any different. You're literally driving past
Speaker 1: the cemetery, lamenting the loss of this stories and people
Speaker 1: just driving past these lives, and and you were thinking
Speaker 1: about deaths, and God forbid, you're listening to the Smiths.
Speaker 1: Come on, get a hold of yourself. Woman. But I
Speaker 1: was I was completely the opposite in high school. I
Speaker 1: was a bulletproof titanium, like nothing, never nervous about anything.
Speaker 1: And we both mind up in the same place. So
Speaker 1: that idea that there's a spiritual or healing aspect to panic,
Speaker 1: to disordered anxiety, I'm not talking about regular everybody gets anxious.
Speaker 1: I've talked about panic attacks to orphobia, o c D,
Speaker 1: those life controlling disorders. I do not see a spiritual
Speaker 1: component to those. This isn't about finding something spiritual to
Speaker 1: heal at all. It's not telling me anything. It's it's
Speaker 1: telling me bullshit and I have to call it out,
Speaker 1: is what it's telling me. But that being said, this
Speaker 1: what I have found is a level of I am
Speaker 1: a attracted to the studies of Buddhism and Taoism and Stoicism.
Speaker 1: I would not tell you I'm a terribly religious person. Um,
Speaker 1: I do think there's something else. I don't know what,
Speaker 1: but so maybe I'm agnostic. But the practice of recovery
Speaker 1: and learning recovery has brought me to a little bit
Speaker 1: more of a I don't want to call it a
Speaker 1: spiritual place. I found no spirituality in the process of
Speaker 1: recovery because I didn't feel that I healed, I learned. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yet I feel like I've come to a place
Speaker 1: where I just handle life so much better and there
Speaker 1: is a certain spirituality with that when I understand like, well,
Speaker 1: everything is supposed to happen, and that's true. I believe
Speaker 1: that in my soul, like everything that's supposed to happen
Speaker 1: will happen, including an occasional panic attack or pangs of
Speaker 1: anxiety or or irrational crazy thoughts about like what if
Speaker 1: I just decided to drive off this bridge. All of
Speaker 1: that is supposed to happen, and I'm okay with all
Speaker 1: of that because none of it is, none of it
Speaker 1: is consequential or dangerous. Well, okay, then yeah, then then
Speaker 1: that that's where I think the word surrender is kind
Speaker 1: of a has a nice mystical mysterious quality, right, it
Speaker 1: all does. We can't get away from that anxiety bites
Speaker 1: will be right back after a quick little message from
Speaker 1: one of our sponsors. Now this is the stuff that
Speaker 1: used to make me panic? Oh my, like, like to
Speaker 1: take it further than I'm sitting and listening to the
Speaker 1: myths in high school, You're this like bulletproof guy. We
Speaker 1: ended up in the same place. What what is so
Speaker 1: mystical about that? Is like? And then going further, who
Speaker 1: even knows how the world began? Where all these humans
Speaker 1: on this like spinning globe. Now that oh that thought?
Speaker 1: You want me to have a panic attack? And what
Speaker 1: do you You also mentioned the word existential in your
Speaker 1: book that like someone had said to you, of course
Speaker 1: you're having a panic attack. You just graduated college. You know,
Speaker 1: people your age tend to have an existential crisis, and
Speaker 1: especially since you felt a little pre panic de realization
Speaker 1: feelings as a kid, like, I'm not going to buy
Speaker 1: into that it was an existential crisis. I think it
Speaker 1: was just you know, random, But I do think I
Speaker 1: was always very like I'm the type of person who
Speaker 1: actually did want to fly on an airplane. I begged
Speaker 1: my parents, Um, can we fly on airplanes? Because back
Speaker 1: then it used to be glamorous in the early eighties,
Speaker 1: you know, and uh, can we go on a trip
Speaker 1: on an airplane? And then I developed this panic disorder
Speaker 1: and airplanes, you know. And then I always loved um space,
Speaker 1: and you know, I grew up in the eighties with
Speaker 1: the space shuttles, and I loved space, and I loved
Speaker 1: stars and looking in the sky. And then I developed
Speaker 1: a fear of looking up. I couldn't look at the
Speaker 1: sky because I was so afraid of the the expanse
Speaker 1: of universe I didn't want to hear about, even though
Speaker 1: I really did. And so since I've recovered from that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, my little existential self that used to
Speaker 1: sit in the cemetery is now with the less drama,
Speaker 1: is so interested in space and science and stars and
Speaker 1: and even the mystical stuff that isn't science, but you know,
Speaker 1: the more spiritual stuff of like why are we here?
Speaker 1: I just find that fun to play with and think about.
Speaker 1: And now it's something that gives me great comfort to
Speaker 1: feel that I'm part of this big, unexplainable thing. Whereas
Speaker 1: before being part of a big, unexplainable thing was like
Speaker 1: don't I would have if if I was old me,
Speaker 1: I would have had to turn this podcast off right
Speaker 1: now and I'd be under the table panicking. Completely get you, Jen,
Speaker 1: I totally understand that, because why I didn't come from
Speaker 1: where you came from. With that, I developed that in
Speaker 1: the height of the disorder. My kids were young at
Speaker 1: the time. I would not let them use the word
Speaker 1: dead or death. I couldn't hear it. I could not
Speaker 1: hear it. I had a crippling fear of death and
Speaker 1: existence and annihilation and why are we here? And my God,
Speaker 1: how is there even anything like? I understand all of that,
Speaker 1: And as crazy as it sounds, I even wrote that
Speaker 1: in my The Anxious Truth, the book the other book
Speaker 1: that I wrote, I wrote that when you get past
Speaker 1: then that rational fear doesn't have a grip on you anymore.
Speaker 1: Those thoughts stuff become torture devices, They stop being then
Speaker 1: they become toys. So now I love conversations about existence
Speaker 1: and spirituality and the nature of everything, and it's fun.
Speaker 1: It was torturous, So I completely understand you. I think
Speaker 1: that's what I meant when I was like stumbling through
Speaker 1: like there's something spiritual happening. Is like you get to
Speaker 1: um enjoy all the fruits of being human, which is going,
Speaker 1: what the hell even is this? You know? Um? And
Speaker 1: and I think avoiding thinking about that can even cause
Speaker 1: some anxiety. I know it did for me. But lastly,
Speaker 1: I said that twice but truly, lastly, annihilation that was something.
Speaker 1: And this is like a crazy cliffhanger to end on
Speaker 1: such a big topic, but I do remember at one
Speaker 1: point in my recovery journey, is a therapist to me,
Speaker 1: you ultimately like this panicking and that like the feeling
Speaker 1: that you're gonna I had this very specific fear that
Speaker 1: I was going to lou gravity would stop working on
Speaker 1: me and I would fly away. Oh my god, you're
Speaker 1: the second person You're coming to my parts. You are
Speaker 1: now my second person I've ever found to say that.
Speaker 1: Did you do you have that? Or is that someone
Speaker 1: else you know? No, I know one other person that
Speaker 1: was afraid that gravity would stop working. Jen, You made
Speaker 1: my day. Yeah, but not. But the narcissism of it
Speaker 1: was only on me, not every if everyone else was
Speaker 1: flying around great, you know. And my therapist said, well
Speaker 1: that's just a fear of annihilation, and I was like what,
Speaker 1: And it's like so much bigger than a fear of death.
Speaker 1: That's a whole other thing. But so I do think
Speaker 1: there is this like very fun, philosophical, existential fear that
Speaker 1: um that we have when we're panicking and having anxiety,
Speaker 1: which is so much like like death as a as
Speaker 1: a as a wall, and if you knock that wall down,
Speaker 1: what's behind it is a fear of annihilation and it
Speaker 1: just keeps going and going. It's like, wow, this stuff
Speaker 1: is trippy. I can tell you how you have made
Speaker 1: my day with the gravity story, Jen Well, I am
Speaker 1: so glad that this irrational fear that I've had since
Speaker 1: I was a child, that I could not articulate for
Speaker 1: fear that someone would lock me up and throwing the key,
Speaker 1: that now I am just comfortably sitting in my apartment
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn telling you and it's made your day, Like,
Speaker 1: what what a journey, Drew. I should probably modify that.
Speaker 1: I'm not happy that you had that fear, but I've
Speaker 1: told that story to people and They're like, you're just
Speaker 1: making that up to make me feel better, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh no, guess what. Now we have a living, breathing
Speaker 1: person with a name that people know that was afraid
Speaker 1: of gravity. Yep, I corroborate, and that my friends who
Speaker 1: was my chat with Drew lins alatta. And as always,
Speaker 1: you can go to Jen Kirkman dot com and click
Speaker 1: on Anxiety Bites and you can read all of these
Speaker 1: takeaways that I'm about to say and uh have them
Speaker 1: for yourselves. I don't know, copy and paste, put it somewhere.
Speaker 1: And if you want to send an email to this show,
Speaker 1: if you have any tips and tricks that you want
Speaker 1: to share with the other listeners, or you want to
Speaker 1: ask my advice on anything, Anxiety Bites weekly at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com, please do send it in. I will be
Speaker 1: doing listener email episodes about once every four episodes. Okay,
Speaker 1: so here are some takeaways things that we've learned from
Speaker 1: this episode. Sometimes a panic attack doesn't just literally feel
Speaker 1: like a heart attack, but the sensations can be so
Speaker 1: odd that some people think it's just their last moments alive.
Speaker 1: What they're feeling is almost like what you think being
Speaker 1: moments away from death feels like. With panic and anxiety,
Speaker 1: there is always in irrational fear that comes with it,
Speaker 1: but the fear that you feel is always real. It's
Speaker 1: not in your head. The only thing that's irrational about
Speaker 1: the fear that you are feeling during panic and anxiety
Speaker 1: is that even though the fear is real, you are
Speaker 1: feeling it, you are experiencing it. There's no underlying danger
Speaker 1: beneath it. We just believe that there is. One of
Speaker 1: the insidious things about a panic attack is we will
Speaker 1: always insist this is the worst panic attack I've ever had,
Speaker 1: as though they are somehow getting worse. It only feels
Speaker 1: that way. During a panic attack. There is an undulating wave,
Speaker 1: there's a spike, and then the panic comes down, and
Speaker 1: then maybe another spike, but you never totally come down
Speaker 1: to zero. So that's why a lot of people will
Speaker 1: say my panic attack lasted for hours or three days straight,
Speaker 1: because a lot of times we think a panic attack
Speaker 1: ends when we are feeling zero anxiety. That's really not
Speaker 1: how it works. When we talk about acceptance with having
Speaker 1: a panic attack, it does not mean that we like
Speaker 1: this panic attack or that we want it. Another way
Speaker 1: to look at it is the use of the word surrender.
Speaker 1: You surrender to the panic attack happening to you, which
Speaker 1: is actually a coping mechanism that is going to make
Speaker 1: it go away. The practice of sitting through a panic
Speaker 1: attack in acceptance is a practice of literally giving up
Speaker 1: the fight of panicking, but not giving up your quest
Speaker 1: to recover from having panic attacks. It certainly does not
Speaker 1: mean giving up in the moment. It just means I'm
Speaker 1: clearly not successful in finding this thing when it happens,
Speaker 1: trying to stop it, manage it, and not get down
Speaker 1: manage the symptoms. So I'm just going to let the
Speaker 1: symptoms come and get me, because you know, these symptoms
Speaker 1: keep failing to take me down. As much as they threaten,
Speaker 1: they never do, So I'm just going to let it happen.
Speaker 1: When you are terrified to be alone, that's known as monophobia.
Speaker 1: It's a very very common part of anxiety in the
Speaker 1: agoraphobia complex. So monophobia is when you are terrified to
Speaker 1: be alone. But it doesn't have to do with, you know,
Speaker 1: emotionally not wanting to be alone or having anxious attachment.
Speaker 1: It's literally, I am definitely afraid of my own body
Speaker 1: and my other sensations, and I'm afraid of my thoughts,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to need somebody here just kind of
Speaker 1: on standby. To save me, and that might literally mean
Speaker 1: that you're imagining that they could take you to a
Speaker 1: hospital or perform CPR right then, and that they would
Speaker 1: be the only thing that could help calm you down,
Speaker 1: and that if there's nobody around to save you, then
Speaker 1: you are just left with you and your monster, which
Speaker 1: is how monophobia develops. A gorphobia isn't quite a fear
Speaker 1: of leaving your house. It's more of a fear of
Speaker 1: how you will feel in certain contexts and situations where
Speaker 1: you feel that you are away from your safe zone.
Speaker 1: Panic attacks can lead to panic disorder, which can lead
Speaker 1: to avoid. Avoid, avoid avoid triggers, avoid places that trigger you,
Speaker 1: and then when you run out of safe places, most
Speaker 1: of the time, you will wind up at your home,
Speaker 1: which is a gorphobia. There is a modified forms of
Speaker 1: a gorphobia, like you can leave the house, but as
Speaker 1: long as you have your partner with me, or your mom,
Speaker 1: or your sister or your best friend, you have safe
Speaker 1: people that make it okay to go out. Another way
Speaker 1: to think of panic and how it's common for you
Speaker 1: is to remember, it keeps failing to take you down,
Speaker 1: It keeps failing to kill you, and it keeps failing
Speaker 1: to make you crazy. Even though every time during a
Speaker 1: panic attack you are convinced you are going to die
Speaker 1: or go crazy, it has never happened. Panic is not
Speaker 1: good at killing you. Panic is not good and making
Speaker 1: you go crazy. Panic is all talk. In order to
Speaker 1: recover from panic attacks, you have to take the same
Speaker 1: exact mechanism that teaches you to be afraid of your
Speaker 1: own body and your throw it in reverse and you
Speaker 1: use it to learn not to be afraid of your
Speaker 1: body anymore. It's not to stop the anxiety, it's to
Speaker 1: not be afraid of it. That's the first goal in
Speaker 1: panic attack and anxiety recovery. Nobody ever said that you're
Speaker 1: guaranteed to never panic or never be anxious again. That
Speaker 1: just wouldn't be realistic. Human beings experienced anxiety, and many
Speaker 1: human beings, even ones that don't develop disordered anxiety, will
Speaker 1: still experience panic attacks now and then. It's just that
Speaker 1: they don't let them control their lives. As Drew says,
Speaker 1: are you worried that a chicken salad might suddenly appear
Speaker 1: in your kitchen counter? And the answer is no, of
Speaker 1: course I'm not worried about that. Okay, Well, are you
Speaker 1: not worried that a chicken salad sandwich will appear, because
Speaker 1: you're not afraid of chicken salad. Yes, that's why I'm
Speaker 1: not afraid. Okay, great, So don't worry about having a
Speaker 1: panic attack, because if you are not afraid of one,
Speaker 1: you will not worry about it suddenly appearing out of nowhere.
Speaker 1: As Drew says in his recovery, he just doesn't care
Speaker 1: about something so terrible as a panic attack anymore. He acknowledges, yes,
Speaker 1: it's terrible. He doesn't want to have a panic attack,
Speaker 1: he doesn't like it, he doesn't welcome it. But the differences,
Speaker 1: he just decides not to care. He's learned not to care,
Speaker 1: which is helpful in furthering that, which is learning how
Speaker 1: not to anticipate one. He doesn't worry about, oh my god,
Speaker 1: what if one happens, And he tells people all of
Speaker 1: the time. If you're starting to have an inner dialogue
Speaker 1: about what if I panic? What if this? Do not
Speaker 1: get into the conversation. Think of it as a drunk
Speaker 1: dude trying to get your number. You can turn your
Speaker 1: back on him, and you know you still hear them
Speaker 1: talking at you being obnoxiously drunk. But you don't have
Speaker 1: to engage and respond in it, and that's key. This
Speaker 1: was my favorite takeaway. We go from worrying what if
Speaker 1: I panic again? To even if I panic again, I
Speaker 1: will be okay. That's what I actually wanted to call
Speaker 1: this episode is from what if too even if, but
Speaker 1: I thought people might not know what that means. And
Speaker 1: I think we can catch a lot more fish with
Speaker 1: the when anxiety comes back anyway, So I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode as always Again, like I've said, Jen
Speaker 1: Kirkman dot com, click Anxiety Bites you can read the takeaways.
Speaker 1: Please do send me an email Anxiety Bites weekly at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. We have a lot more great guests
Speaker 1: coming up for you this season. The season is about
Speaker 1: half over. It's um. We have forty six episodes this season,
Speaker 1: and just a reminder, I am working a full time
Speaker 1: job during the week days while bringing this podcast to you,
Speaker 1: so I'm not always available UM to certain guests that
Speaker 1: you know. There's certain topics that I'm dying to get to,
Speaker 1: like more lgbt Q topics, UM anxiety and a d
Speaker 1: D anxiety and menopause anxiety with how do we help
Speaker 1: children and teens with anxiety, elderly people with anxiety. It's all.
Speaker 1: It's all eventually going to get there, but um, my
Speaker 1: schedule is a bit of an issue right now. So
Speaker 1: it's it's sometimes hard to line people up unless we
Speaker 1: have the same exact schedule. So I'm here in all
Speaker 1: of you and all of your requests for things. UM,
Speaker 1: certainly I want to cover it all. And hey, you
Speaker 1: know what, if you tell a friend, if you give
Speaker 1: this a five star review on Spotify or Apple podcasts,
Speaker 1: maybe I Heart we give me a second season, which
Speaker 1: will give me way more time to cover every single
Speaker 1: aspect of anxiety and more. So thanks again for listening,
Speaker 1: and yes, anxiety bites, but you're in control. For more
Speaker 1: podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.