1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: My guest today is a I was going to say 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: young Turk, but he's corrected me, and he's more like 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: a middle aged turk. 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 2: I'm forty eight. I'm forty eight. 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: Okay. I looked at this, well, forty eight and forty 6 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: eight is ninety six. So if ninety six is the 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: average age of most human beings, okay, I can still 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: you can still be a young Turk. I tune into 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: this Young Turk almost every single day to watch his 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: astute reporting on CNBC's Squawkbox. In fact, I tune into 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: all of his projects. His fantastic Showtime series Billions. Really, 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: I love that show so much, and I knew you, 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: and I knew mister Kopplemant, and I loved the actors. 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: I just thought it was one of the best, best, 15 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: best shows ever. I've tuned into his book and a 16 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: film Too Big to Fail about the two thousand and 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: eight five financial Crisis, and now his latest book, nineteen 18 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: twenty nine. I admire the prolific body of work he 19 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: has created for a forty eight year old. You're very prolific, 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 1: and I always enjoy talking to him. Welcome to my podcast, 21 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: Andrew Ross Sorkin. 22 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 2: Thank you so much Martha. 23 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: Now, where does the Ross come from? 24 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 2: So the Ross is my mother's maiden name. I never 25 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 2: used it actually in most of my life or career. 26 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: I guess I didn't have a career. I used to 27 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: go by Andrew Sorkin. Occasionally, I do Andrew Rsorkin if 28 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: I was trying to be a little pretentious. When I 29 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: was eighteen years old, I was an intern at the 30 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 2: New York Times, and I had an article that was 31 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: going to come out, and I had lunch with my grandfather, 32 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: my mother's father, alonger with us Chester Ross, and he said, Andrew, 33 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: this is going to be our one shot. You're never 34 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: going to get a byeline on New York Times ever. Again, 35 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: this is it. You got to use your full name. 36 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: Oh how nice. 37 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: So I did the full name, and here we are. 38 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: Well, it's a very elegant name, and you are a 39 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: very elegant young man. But he thinks so Andrew or 40 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: Serkin has kind of bright blue eyes, dark hair. You 41 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: have a big black spot in your left eye. 42 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: The moment, it's not actually a spot. My pupil never 43 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 2: made the full turn. So it's actually the pupil sort 44 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: of a little bit a skew, a skew and sometimes 45 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: elongated elongated, and it's interesting. Some people notice it. You 46 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: noticed it. I have friends from second grade who took 47 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: them till I was thirty them to notice it. And 48 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: then sometimes I'll walk into cvs and they'll notice it. Secds. 49 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: So my granddaughter has an unusual right eye. She has 50 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: blue eyes and she has a big brown streak through 51 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: her right eye. 52 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: Isn't that great? 53 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so great. Some man is going to be 54 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: so entranced with that and esk her to marry totally 55 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: him when he sees that eye. Oh my god, I 56 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: love strange eyes. We're going to talk about your book, 57 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: but first I really want to ask you what did 58 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: it take to secure the covided spot on the daily 59 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: desk of the Squawkboks. 60 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: For many many years, I was a guest on the 61 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: show and I come on, there's the show. So the 62 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: show is now thirty years old. Oh that's right. I 63 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: went to your anniversary party, which was the best party. 64 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: It was a great party. 65 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: You know why it was the best for me. Did 66 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: you see who I was talking to? 67 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 2: Warren Buffett? Yeah, oh, darn Buffett and Martha Stewart together 68 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: and if I recall, you've met him a bunch of 69 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: times before. And I think there's a picture of you 70 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: and Warren together. 71 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it appeared in the wal Street Journal of me 72 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: sitting on the back of his old Chevrolet and the 73 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: license plate between us reads thrifty love it. It's so great. 74 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: He invited me out to Omaha right after I went 75 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: public to find out who this lady was, you know, 76 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: and we had such a great day, and then I 77 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: left Omaha and didn't really think about him again. How 78 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: stupid was I? 79 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: Two very special people? Yeah, he's doing him. 80 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: No, he's very special. Yeah, and still jovial and still astute, 81 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: and still working very hard and thinking. Just I asked him, 82 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: does he think about age old age? And he says 83 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: every now and then, and he's ninety five years old. Yep, 84 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: every now and then he thinks about old age. Anyway, 85 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: we're digressing. 86 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: So, oh goodness. Time just to tell you how I 87 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: got the CIA. So I've been going on the show 88 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 2: as a guest for many, many years, and I've been 89 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 2: going on different CNBC shows, and I used to go 90 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 2: back in the day on the CDA Show and Charlie 91 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: Rose and all of those shows, and so then they 92 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,679 Speaker 2: called me up when if you remember, Mark Haynes passed away, 93 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: he was the host of the show at nine am. 94 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: At nine am, and they were going to redo that show, 95 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: and so they were thinking of moving Carl Kintonia, who 96 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: you might remember was on the desk at Squawk to 97 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: the nine, and they said, would you want to do this? 98 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: And I thought, my goodness, who's going crazy enough to 99 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: let me be the host of any kind of show. 100 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: I didn't know how to read a teleprompter. I mean, 101 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 2: I'd been on as a guest, but I didn't know 102 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: how to do this. I mean I still don't. 103 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: Well, you do very well, by the way, and it's 104 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: an interesting show because there are three very diver first 105 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: people running that show totally, and you and Joe seem 106 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: to spar a little bit, yes, or a lot, sometimes 107 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 1: a lot. So you're on the squalkbox haft for how 108 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: many years? 109 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: I've been on for fifteen. 110 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: Fifteen years half its life, and the show has only 111 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: gotten better, by the way, And I don't know why 112 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: that is exactly. Maybe I'm just more interested in what's 113 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: going on even now than I had been. 114 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: You know, I have a theory on this, which is 115 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 2: that I think that the world came a little bit 116 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: our way. I think originally we covered business as just business, 117 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 2: and business has now become almost part of everything. It's policy. Now, 118 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: it's Washington, it's the White House, it's Paris, Paris, it's everything. 119 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: Too much of the White House. If I can just opine, you. 120 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: Can pine, we're all taking your feedback. Ye at all 121 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: times is a little too much of White House. And 122 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: let me say, the critical kind of feedback I always 123 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: tell people is the best kind of feedback, because I 124 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 2: need to know what's wrong. When people tell me something 125 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 2: is great, I'm like, Okay, that's right, good, I know 126 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 2: what's wrong with it. 127 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: But it is a very very good show. And I 128 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: learn a lot. And I love your guests. I love 129 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: hearing the diverse diversity of opinions that you bring onto 130 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: the show. That's extremely important, and you learn a lot. 131 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: As reports my business. 132 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: It's like I on a cooking show, got to have 133 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: interview every great chef, anybody I wanted would come on 134 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: this show. 135 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 2: So you get to. 136 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: Have any business person, any economist, anybody in the financial 137 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: word on your show and learn so much from those people. 138 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 2: No, I mean selfishly. I get to basically have breakfast 139 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 2: with the most interesting people in the world in my mind, 140 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 2: often at the most interesting times in their life, because 141 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 2: they're coming on in these interesting news moments that are 142 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: changing their lives, both for the good and some rest 143 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 2: of the bad and who knows what. 144 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: After reading the New York Times review today, yes, which 145 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: was not the most I really didn't like the review 146 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: very much, but it says why I write this book 147 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: about the greatest crash in the history of the United 148 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: States stock exchange. Now, now that review points out that 149 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: it really wasn't It was a minuscule blip on the 150 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: financial world, not at the time, but in retrospect, it's 151 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: really a small crash compared to other worldly events that 152 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: have occurred. 153 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: What do you think you know? For me, I wrote 154 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: this book about the crisis in two thousand and eight, 155 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: Too Big to Fail, and after that people constantly would 156 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 2: say to me, tell me how that compares to nineteen 157 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: twenty nine. We all know that something horrible happened in 158 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 2: nine twenty nine, and most people think that that created 159 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: great depression. And the truth that I didn't know much 160 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: about it, and I wanted to understand it and not 161 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: just understand. I wanted to know it as a drama. 162 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: Well, there wasn't much written about it. 163 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: There were some great books that some economists had written, 164 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: and other kinds of things like that, but there wasn't 165 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: this sort of human drama, soap opera version of what 166 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: really happened. What were their motives, what were their incentives? 167 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: What were they saying to each other? What were the 168 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: husbands saying to the wives? What was all of the 169 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 2: sort of backster who's having an affair with who? I 170 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 2: wanted to know all of this, and. 171 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: You covered it in this big How many pages is 172 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: this book? 173 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 2: Oh goodness, I think it's five, but I don't want 174 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: people to get scared to beach read folks. It's five 175 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: hundred some my pages. But there's end notes involved because 176 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: I spent an enormous amount of time in the archives. 177 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: No, it's a very it's a fun read, and it 178 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: is also a read to learn. I mean, you learn 179 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: an awful, awful lot in this book about people you 180 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: never heard of, about events that occurred that you had 181 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: no idea about. 182 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: You did a lot of research eight years, eight years literally, 183 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: I'd go to libraries all over the country trying to 184 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: find information, diaries, memos, letters, notes, and the people. 185 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: No definitive archives. 186 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 2: There was not one. I think the problem with this 187 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: bookhere the challenge was there wasn't one or two or 188 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 2: three places you could just go and go excavate all 189 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: the material. You really had to go find it in 190 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: all sorts of places, like a needle in a haystack. 191 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: Personal letters. Did you find libraries with so. 192 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 2: Many personal letters? I mean where you would see the 193 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: leaders of these banks, oftentimes in correspondence directly with Hoover, 194 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: transcripts of meetings that they'd have in the White House 195 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: with each other, from depositions and other kinds of lawsuits. 196 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 2: There was lots of stuff with the husbands and the wives. 197 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: There's one fabulous letter where one of the wives is 198 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 2: sending the husband a letter talking about the affairs he's having, 199 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: And so I thought, this is so And who was he? 200 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: Thomas Lamont, the fellow who's running JP Morgan at the time, 201 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: And he actually comes across like a family man, and 202 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 2: he may be actually, but as I was looking through 203 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 2: these letters and the archives, I found this very unusual 204 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: letter that his wife had sent where she effectively accuses 205 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 2: him of having you know girls in every port because 206 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: he's traveling around the world all the time. And there 207 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: was a very bizarre note attached to it by I 208 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 2: think it was his daughter or granddaughter who said that 209 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 2: this is actually not true. It's a joke. It was 210 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 2: a family joke, and I could never tell whether the 211 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: letter on top of the letter was trying to protect 212 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 2: their father or with some other thing. So I actually 213 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: didn't use the entire thing. I put the whole thing 214 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: in the end note so you could actually read it 215 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 2: in all its glory. 216 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: In a review today, he mentions that a lot of 217 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: these bankers would give special prices on certain stocks to 218 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: their biggest clients. Is that true? 219 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. There were no rules back then, I 220 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 2: mean completely, no SEC no SEC, no, no Banking Act, 221 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: no anything. Insider trading was legal back then, just to 222 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 2: be I mean ever, you could do whatever. 223 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: You wanting about. Insider trading must have been absolutely acceptable. 224 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: Totally totally. We'll leave that there. But yeah, all of 225 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 2: that was. There was no problem with any of those things. 226 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: And so you had people putting together what was called 227 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 2: investment pools where they literally would manipulate the stock price 228 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: on purpose. I mean true, pump and dump things. 229 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: But you cover all that in the book in all 230 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: very clear fashion, which is very interesting. And I just 231 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: think that we have to know about all of this 232 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: stuff because what we have now is a highly regulated 233 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: industry which people still manage to do bad things in. 234 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: So the good news is people will say, oh, are 235 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: we going to have another nineteen twenty nine? And this 236 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 2: really was the greatest crash and greatest depression we've ever 237 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 2: had in terms of length, and you know, twenty five 238 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: percent unemployment. Ultimately nine thousand banks went out of business 239 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: by nineteen thirty two. 240 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: I mean, this was really a Katia National Park would 241 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: not have been built without the Great Crash, though. You 242 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: know why because all those people who were out of 243 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: work came to work in the parks, Wow, And they 244 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: built the walls and built the roads and made a 245 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: most beautiful national park up there. So many of those 246 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: were Depression era workers. So a lot of that stuff happens. 247 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: And yet that's another book. I mean, that's another book. 248 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: What did those people actually do when they were unemployed? 249 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 2: So I hope we will not have another great Depression 250 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 2: style panic. Do I think we'll have another crisis of 251 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: some sort I'm sure we will. The good news is 252 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: because I think of some of the regulations, we'll be 253 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 2: able to withstand them. The truth, though, is there are 254 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 2: some things happening now in our economy that are a 255 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: little similar. 256 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, an AI lurking over us, and what is that 257 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: going to do in terms of the economy Ultimately. 258 00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: So I have very mixed fews. I'm so curious what 259 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: you think. I mean, I'm so excited about it in 260 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 2: so many ways. I think it's going to change our 261 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: whole life in fabulous ways. And then I think to myself, 262 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 2: if it succeeds, if it does what it's supposed to do, 263 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 2: if the valuations all these companies get to, whether it 264 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: requires a shocking amount of productivity, and productivity is sort 265 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 2: of a euphemism for taking out costs, and where's the 266 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: cost usually come from? Us, the people. So when you 267 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: start to think about twenty five percent on employment back 268 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty two, I start to think, oh, my goodness, 269 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: could we actually get to a We have. 270 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: Three children, I do that's what you have to think about, 271 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: I do. You have to think about their future, not yours, 272 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: because we're living in I think probably the most exciting 273 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: time in technology. 274 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: Ever. 275 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: I love the idea that AI has taken the places 276 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: number one, the fastest ever ever industry, to capture the 277 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: minds and the money of everybody. But what do the 278 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: kids think? My fourteen year old granddaughter writes to me 279 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: about AI pretty much every day, and she hates it 280 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: because she thinks it is going to destroy us. 281 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: So interesting is I have two sons who are fifteen 282 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: other twin boys, and then I have an eight year 283 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 2: old daughter. 284 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: What do they think? 285 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: The fifteen year olds, I think are actually still quite 286 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 2: excited about it. I mean we've had some pretty deep 287 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: conversations about jobs and things. They're optimists. They think that 288 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: they're going to somehow figure it out. They're going to 289 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: find some angle. They're both very entrepreneurial. They're always trying 290 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 2: to find some new fangled way to do something. So 291 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm going to try to stay on 292 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 2: the optimistic side. 293 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: If they have a good angle, I'm going to bring 294 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: Jude over to talk to them, because she really is 295 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: negative about it. 296 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 2: That would actually be a fact. 297 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be interesting? You know? What do the kids think? Yeah, yeah, 298 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: let's do that. You should have it on your show. 299 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 2: Actually, what do the kids think? We should do a 300 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: segment called what do the kids think? 301 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: Ye, it would be good. 302 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: There you go, Bingo. 303 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: Well, back to the book. 304 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 2: It took eight years. Took eight years while he's doing 305 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 2: any other things. That's one of the ways I should say. Look, 306 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: it took eight years. But also there were periods of 307 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 2: time where I couldn't work on it because I was 308 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: running around with my day jobs. The pandemic came in 309 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 2: the middle of it, which did not help at all. 310 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: I just didn't I would have thought that would have helped. 311 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: So you will appreciate this. I couldn't get into libraries 312 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 2: because they weren't allowing you to. So the only people 313 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: could get into libraries were sometimes students who had like 314 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: a dissertation of thesis do so there was like a 315 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: market for these kids, and I would pay them by 316 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 2: the hour and I would say, you go into the library. 317 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 2: I want you to take a picture of every single 318 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: page you know in box one fifty two, and they 319 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: would then send it back to me. The truth was 320 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 2: it was very helpful, but I ended up once the 321 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: pandemic was over and I was allowed back, I went 322 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: back and almost redid it all good. You had you, 323 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: you felt like you wanted, you needed to your. 324 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: Book details, so many colorful characters like John Jacob Rescov. 325 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I think that you would be friends 326 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: with Rascal. Rascot was like the Elon Musk of today, 327 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 2: or then I should say say, and I love Elon. 328 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: When he first appeared on the scene, I loved him 329 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: and I bought his stock. I loved everything about that 330 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: kind of intelligence and entrepreneurial craziness really appeals to me totally. 331 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: But then the downfall was when he went to the 332 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: White House politics. 333 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so John Rascal has actually somewhat of a similar arc, 334 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: so we'll see what you think. He effectively ran General Motors, 335 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: really created modern credit in America, so people did not 336 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 2: take out loans prior to nineteen nineteen in America, it 337 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: was considered a sin. It was like a moral sin 338 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 2: to borrow to borrow money. And he decides, well, we 339 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: need to sell more cars. How we're going to sell 340 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: more cars. We're going to lend people money and then 341 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 2: they'll buy the cars. And this was sort of a 342 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: brilliant move, and Sears Roebuck then does the same thing 343 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: for appliances, and then by the way, the bankers start 344 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: to do it so you could buy stock. 345 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: Did you read today about car loans. The latest is 346 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: that many car loans they're not being paid by the borrowers. 347 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: And it is a sure sign. 348 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: Of another signal. 349 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: Event, signal of a big economic problem in America. 350 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: Hmm, oh, well, you're more up out it than I 351 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: am right now. But Rascob becomes sort of a fabulously 352 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 2: successful investor. He was a philosopher king, and he had 353 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 2: all of these ideas, including he had this idea that 354 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: we should have a five day work week, so back 355 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: then people worked six days a week. In fact, the 356 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: stock exchange was open on Saturdays. 357 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: I would have hated that. 358 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 2: What he said was he thought that there he would 359 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: actually create growth in the economy because people would have 360 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: the weekend, and because of this weekend, they'd buy more cars, 361 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: because they could go places, hotels, leisure activities, they would garden, 362 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: all of these things. And so he had all of 363 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: these ideas, and then like Elon, he gets involved in politics. 364 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: He decides he wants to be involved in politics, and 365 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: he was a Republican. Effectively, he decides to switch sides 366 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: to become effectively a Democrat, becomes the head of the 367 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: Democratic Party, working with a guy nam Al Smith against Hoover, loses, 368 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 2: then spends a lot of money trying to undermine Hoover's reputation. 369 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: Then decides he's going to build what I would describe 370 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 2: as the SpaceX of its time, which was the Empire 371 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: State building. And so he was one of these people 372 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: who was everywhere all at once. He had thirteen children. 373 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: You know, press would hang on every word the way 374 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: they do with Elan And if John Rascott had Twitter, 375 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 2: he would be so happy. 376 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: Boy, he would have been amazing. Which character did you 377 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: most enjoy getting to know in your research? 378 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: You know, I have a great affection for Guy Jesse 379 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 2: Livermore and great empathy for Jesse. Jesse was a short seller. 380 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 2: He effectively bet against stocks, so he wanted stocks to 381 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 2: go down. He was sort of a reck loose, bit 382 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 2: of a weirdo, to be honest with you, very emotionally 383 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: fraud human. But he thought that he frankly was smarter 384 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: than everybody else and had these ideas, and he was 385 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: very successful doing what he did. And in nineteen twenty 386 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 2: nine he bets against the market when everybody else was 387 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: on the other side, and he makes one hundred million dollars. 388 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 2: But he was such an emotional wreckon so lived for 389 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 2: the trading and the gambling of it all that he 390 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 2: lost it a couple of years later, and then he 391 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 2: made some back and he lost it again. 392 00:17:59,040 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: The first hdge fund. 393 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 2: Yes, he was really the first, one of the first 394 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 2: headshlongd managers. However, in nineteen forty he walks into the 395 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 2: cloakroom at the Sherry Netherland on Fifth Avenue. I'm sure 396 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 2: you've been, and he shoots himself on the head. And 397 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 2: he lost everything, or he had lost everything, and he 398 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: had a drinking problem, and he had many wives and affairs, 399 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 2: and he was just a mess of a person. But 400 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 2: I really thought he was an interesting character, and I 401 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: felt for him for some reason. I can imagine, are 402 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 2: we in a bubble? Now? I think we're in some 403 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: kind of bubble. The thing I can't figure out is 404 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: anytime you have companies spending money that they don't have 405 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 2: and they're taking on debt to do it, And this 406 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 2: is what's happening with AI for example. Now, I don't 407 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 2: really doesn't end well. Whether the Internet had its hiccup 408 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 2: in the late nineties, and look at where the internet 409 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: is now. So I think this is going to be, 410 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: you know, fabulous, should shift in our whole society. But 411 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: I do think that there's a lot of indiscriminated spending 412 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: that will probably turn out to be a mistake. 413 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: How many people do you think really understand what AI is? 414 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 2: Yes, I don't know. Are you using chat gpt yourself? 415 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: Oh, but I'm so disappointed in it? 416 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 2: You are? 417 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: Yet I have not been able to train it to 418 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: answer my questions. I ask kind of complicated questions, and 419 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: I don't get good answers. They ask for more information 420 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: about what am I really trying to find, and I 421 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: get pissed off at it because I think by now 422 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: it's really like asking Siri answered my questions a little 423 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: bit better than chet GPG is, But I think I 424 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: have to learn a little bit more about how to 425 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: converse with it. 426 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: Okay, I've started to use it more than I used to, 427 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: and I am finding it to be shockingly good. Good. 428 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 2: I'll tell you how I used it recently. So I 429 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: got a contract. Someone sends me a contract to sign 430 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: twelve pages I read it. I'm thinking of sending to 431 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 2: my lawyer. You actually know my lawyer. I'm thinking I 432 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: could send him something. It p I charged me. I 433 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 2: don't know what he was going to charge me for that. 434 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 2: But then I think I'm on airplane when I see this. 435 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: I put the contract into chat gipt. I've seen three 436 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 2: things that I in love. I say, tell me everything 437 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 2: that's good and bad in the contract. Oh, identifies the 438 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: three things I didn love, plus two other things. It 439 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 2: then tells me three things that I didn't realize were 440 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: actually pretty good for me. Oh. Then it says, would 441 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 2: you like me to make a red line version of 442 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: the contract, meaning to rewrite the contract? I say sure. 443 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 2: It does this. Then it says to me, would you 444 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 2: like me to write a cover letter to go along 445 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 2: with the new version of the contract. So I say please. 446 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 2: It writes the loveliest letter you've ever read. I want 447 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 2: to thank you so much for how much thought you've 448 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: put into this agreement. I know that we both value 449 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 2: being on the same page together. And there's a couple 450 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: of items in here that you know a little asymmetric 451 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: or something like that, and I'm sure you'll agree that 452 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: you know, giving our plans for long term partnership that 453 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: these should be fixed. You send it. I made a 454 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 2: couple of quick changes, pressed end. Forty five minutes later, 455 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 2: the guy sent it back and said, totally agree. And 456 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: that was that. 457 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 1: Okay, you got me into a new use for a tragy. 458 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: I would never even think of me. My contract said, 459 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: I have a very complicated contract right now which I'm 460 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: going to try try. 461 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 2: But this was a very non complicated situation. This is 462 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: a very low risk scenario that I was involved in. 463 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: Okay, but I am going to try that because really 464 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: and truly I love hearing that. And my thirteen year 465 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: old grandson he uses chet Gpeach all the time, not 466 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: to write papers or to do his research, but he's 467 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: into sports in a big way, and he finds out 468 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: a lot about the finances of sports. 469 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: I'll give you one more. My son Max turns some 470 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: of the reading that he's supposed to do into podcasts. 471 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: So I don't know if you know, Google now has 472 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: a product you insert all the information. You could actually 473 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 2: give it a paper and they will create a podcast 474 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: out of it, as if two people are talking about 475 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 2: the issues and the facts and you just listen to it. 476 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: We did this with this nineteen twenty nine book that 477 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: we're talking about. This is old chet gypch question. 478 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 2: Oh really, so this is not Martha. This is all hologround. 479 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: I'm trying to kidding. 480 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: Wow, wouldn't that be fun? Though? 481 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: Oh boy, this is so fun. Well, this thing about 482 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: the bubble. Yeah, if you do have a crash like 483 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine, how long would it take to develop 484 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: and how would we recover? 485 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: The good news is I don't think we will have 486 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: a crash of the kind of magnitude of nineteen twenty 487 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: nine ninet twenty nine. Oddly, the crash was like the 488 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: first Domino. And then a series of very bad choices 489 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 2: were made in Washington, like Hoover decided that he was 490 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: going to raise taxes. Just in a moment when the 491 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 2: economy was sputtering. Hoover decides that he is going to 492 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 2: implement tariffs. Here we are talking about tariffs. He decides 493 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 2: to implement tariffs in nineteen thirty. In nineteen twenty eight, 494 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 2: when he was trying to get elected, he wanted farmers 495 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 2: to vote for him, so he had told them we're 496 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: going to do tariffs. So he felt that he needed 497 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: to continue on with that, even though every economist told him. 498 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: It was a terrible on food imports, on everything, and 499 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 2: by the way, global trade dropped by sixty percent after 500 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: he did that. This is everyone's telling him not to 501 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: do it. The Federal Reserve basically sat on their hands, 502 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,239 Speaker 2: didn't throw money at the problem, which is what Ben 503 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 2: Bernanki ultimately did in two thousand and eight, which is 504 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 2: really the thing you're supposed to do. Problem is, it's 505 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: a politically unpopular thing to do because a lot of 506 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 2: people think you're rescuing people, you're rewarding the arsonists, and 507 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 2: so that was a real thing. There were a lot 508 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 2: of bad choices that were made that hopefully we've learned 509 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 2: from so that if we did have another, call it 510 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: AI bubble, sure we could have a market that would 511 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 2: come down materially and it could have real effects, but 512 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 2: hopefully it wouldn't take down the system in a way 513 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: where the next ten years would be what they were 514 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 2: after twentye Well, right. 515 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: Now, tariffs have really hurt the soybean farmers. Yes, and 516 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: I have just gotten back from Nebraska and Wisconsin and 517 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: where all the soybeans are grown, and is a huge 518 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: surplus of soybeans because China has said I don't we 519 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: don't want any of your soybeans, which is their big, 520 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: big crop. Now our president has gone and said he 521 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: will subsidize all the farmers, but he hasn't said what 522 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: they're going to do with the soybeans. What do they 523 00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: do with the soybeans? 524 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 2: That's actually very good, cool question. I don't know what 525 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: they're going to do with the soybeans. And there's another 526 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: question where we can get the money to subsidize all 527 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: these farmers except to take some of the tariff money 528 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: and give it to them, right, And then the question 529 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: is why are we doing this? If that's the that's right? 530 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: Isn't it crazy? And they would have made more money 531 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: if they were able to sell their soybeans to China. 532 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: So this keeps me up at night. I'm not kidding. 533 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: It really does keep me up at night, worrying about 534 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: the farmers and worrying about where are those soybeans? That 535 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: it takes a long time to grow a beautiful crop 536 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: of soybeans, So what do we do about stuff like that? 537 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: And how do you keep borrowing from one place and 538 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: putting it into another place? 539 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 2: And how long can that last? Well, the borrowing is 540 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 2: the problem, and look, leverage in the system is what 541 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: always is the match that lights the fire of every 542 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 2: financial crisis. And back in nineteen twenty nine, it was 543 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 2: margin loans for individuals. In two thousand and eight it 544 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: was subprime loans. That's like in the corporate banking debt world. 545 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,479 Speaker 2: Then I worry about our debt, the nation's debt. By 546 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 2: the way, in nineteen twenty nine, there was a budget surplus. 547 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 2: We didn't have the kind of debt we have today 548 00:24:59,400 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: at all. 549 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: Remember Clinton when he left office, there was a budget 550 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: surplus exactly. I loved those years. 551 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 2: Those were some great years. And so if we do 552 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,239 Speaker 2: have a problem, it becomes harder and harder because we're 553 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: borrowing from the future and our children, and our children 554 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: and their education and their education and everything. 555 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: Else, their colleges and their real estate, et cetera, et cetera. 556 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: So think about the kids and what we're doing to them. 557 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: You said that you know we will have a crash, 558 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: but you can't say when or how deep what should 559 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: we be doing. 560 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 2: So this is the complicated part, and timing is the problem. 561 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: So I was with Paul titter Jones a week or 562 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: two ago. He's one of the great sort of famous 563 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 2: traders and made billions of dollars. And he said, Andrew, 564 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: I think we're in October of nineteen ninety nine. He said, ooh, 565 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 2: that seems scary because October nineteen ninety nine, six or 566 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 2: twelve months later, we've had a bust. He said, yeah, 567 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 2: but the stock market went up forty percent during that period. 568 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 2: And so if you weren't in the market during the 569 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: forty percent up, you were stupid, or you would a 570 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: file you were stupid. By the way, in nineteen twenty 571 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 2: Charles Merrill of Merrill Lynch, the original Marril of Merrill Lynch, 572 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 2: told people to get out of the market nineteen twenty eight. 573 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 2: From the beginning nineteen twenty eight to September of nineteen 574 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: twenty nine, the market went up ninety percent. So he 575 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 2: was wrong, and so he looks like he was right 576 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: in retrospect, but sort of wrong. And so this is 577 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: why when people say are we in a bubble? Yes, 578 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: we're in something. 579 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: And you can't trade emotionally because that never pans out. 580 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: It's more luck than anything else. It looks like to me. 581 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 2: I think luck plays a factor in it. I don't 582 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: want to say it doesn't. 583 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: No I think it does. The whole financial world that's 584 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: going on everywhere, not just in America but all over 585 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: the world is very fascinating. You have a very fascinating job. 586 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 2: I feel so lucky and blessed, honestly, because every day 587 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 2: is a different day. The headlines are crazy, the news 588 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 2: is crazy. And I'm one of those people who always thought, 589 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 2: if you follow the money, it explains everything. That explains business, 590 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 2: explains politics. Unfortunately, it explains sports, it explains art, it 591 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 2: explains so many things. 592 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: What do you think about this huge amount of money 593 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: that's going into sports. 594 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 2: So, you know, it feels like there might be a 595 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: sports bubble. To be honest with you, the amount of 596 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 2: money and this idea that this is the holy Land, 597 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 2: this is the only thing that people are going to 598 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 2: watch in the future, I'm not sure as true. Some 599 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 2: of the prices that these teams are worth, and some 600 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 2: of the licenses that these networks are paying. It's hard 601 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 2: to make all of the economics work. The NFL seems 602 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 2: to be a very special case. Everyone in the NFL 603 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: is making money, by the way, not every team in 604 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 2: Major League Baseball or basketball. The values of the teams 605 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 2: keep rising, the cash flows don't though. 606 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: Mm hm and soccer. Do you know anything about that? 607 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 2: I do know about SA. Where are you on toad? 608 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: I don't watch enough soccer though, and I'm not wholly convinced, 609 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 2: but I think obviously it's no. 610 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: We have a soccer maniac in the family, and I 611 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: feel that he because he loves it so much. He 612 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: goes to Liverpool camp. Wow, he went there when he 613 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: was nine years old and hung out with Liverpool, his 614 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: favorite team. But I start to learn about it, but 615 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: I find it's so unusual that it captures people's minds 616 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: in such a deep way, and they think about it 617 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: so much, thinking about it almost as much as tech 618 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: guys think about AI. The sports guys think about which 619 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: teams are the best teams and betting on these teams. 620 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 2: It's a huge part of the culture, and maybe I 621 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 2: don't fully appreciate because this is one part of the 622 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 2: universe I have not totally adopted. I'm a I'm a 623 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: long suffering I. 624 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: Got to invest in at least one little team someplace. 625 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: You want a women's team, men's. 626 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: To No, No, I want a soccer team for Truman. Ye. 627 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: I just want to invest in something that would capture 628 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: his interests. 629 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: I love it. 630 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it'd be fun. 631 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: Okay, folks, you heard it here first Martha's going to 632 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 2: own a soccer team, professional soccer owner. Oh, here it comes. 633 00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: So we wrote Too Big to Fail? 634 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 2: Yep, in which year? Well, the crisis happened in O eight. 635 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: I wrote most of it in eight and nine and 636 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: the book came out in nine, so it was a 637 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 2: quick turn. 638 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: And then we would have an expected lesson did you 639 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: learn from your research and your writing of that book? 640 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: You know, what I think I learned about the human 641 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: condition is what I actually learned, and that actually helped 642 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 2: me with this book because part of the thing with 643 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 2: this book is that people weren't alive. But by actually 644 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: being able to interview and speak to almost every single 645 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: person during the financial crisis of eight and what was 646 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 2: going through their minds and the emotions of it all, 647 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: I think you were able to sort of transport yourself 648 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 2: into twenty nine and say, Okay, where would Charles Mitchell be, 649 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 2: what would he be doing emotionally? And then I would 650 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 2: try to go find the research that would be suggestive 651 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: of that. You know, the way crisis was so fascinating 652 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: because it really were on sort of the edge of 653 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: the abyss. But at the same time, the bailouts were 654 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: like the most unpopular thing in the universe, and so 655 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: there was such a sort of backlash to all of it. 656 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 2: And I think about that a lot, and the politics 657 00:29:59,080 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: of bailouts and all. 658 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: I was on stage in Palm Beach at the Breakers 659 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: Hotel at a bear Sterns conference when it was announced 660 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: that the chairman was going back to New York. 661 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 2: Wow. 662 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: That next day bear Sterns collapsed. It was so odd. 663 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: I thought, Oh, something bad has happened. I mean, why 664 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: would he be leaving in the midst of it with 665 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,239 Speaker 1: all those bankers sitting in the room. It was so 666 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: terrifying to me that he would just run back to 667 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: New York. But he had a good reason. 668 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 2: He had a good reason. March March of two thousand 669 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: and eight. 670 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: That's so so strange that I even know about that. 671 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: It's so weird to me. I'm writing my autobiography now 672 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: and I'm finding all this stuff. 673 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 2: Are you enjoying writing your autobigraphy? 674 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: Oh? It is like going down the deepest rabbit hole. 675 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: It is so much fun. I have this fabulous guy, 676 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: Kevin O'Leary, who's doing my research for me. I have 677 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,719 Speaker 1: a huge archive, so he's going through the archive and 678 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: putting it in. I call him a chronologist, but it's 679 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: like you had to do for this in nineteen twenty nine. 680 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: It is so interesting. And I got an email from 681 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: him yesterday. You will be interested in this, he said, today, 682 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: you became a billionaire in two thousand and whatever it was, 683 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: or no, nineteen ninetye. I don't even remember the year. 684 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: He reminds me of stuff like that from his research, 685 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: so it's horrifying. 686 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 2: There was an article in nineteen twenty nine with the 687 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 2: headline our second Billionaire. 688 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: Oh who is that? 689 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: Henry Ford? Oh, it's so interesting. They called it our 690 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: second billionaire, as if he was the first Rockefeller. 691 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: Oh of course John D. Rockefeller Junior. Yeah, oh gosh. 692 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: They're all kind of familiar to me because I have 693 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: a house in Seal Harbor Main where all those guys 694 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: came ye building Akadia National Park ultimately, but it's so 695 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,959 Speaker 1: fun to see all that you and Joe Curnan have 696 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: live the arguments. Yes, Box, we do kind of touched 697 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: on what's your relationship off camera? 698 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 2: Kind of like our relationship on camera. I mean, it's 699 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: always been that way. It's a little bit like going 700 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: to Thanksgiving dinner with your family every day for breakfast. 701 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 2: Oh boy, I think that's pretty much the way we roll. 702 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 2: But we text each other during the day about all 703 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 2: sorts of crazy things. You know, the President will do something, 704 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 2: I'll text about it or whatever. It is, food for 705 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 2: thought and for thought, food food for thought. That's very good. 706 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: So let's talk about my favorite show, which now has 707 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: a sequel to it. My favorite show recently was Mobland. 708 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 2: Oh. 709 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: I like mob Bland, Yeah, which reminded me of Billions, 710 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: just and it's like dirtiness, you know, I loved that part. 711 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: But you co created How long was that concept and 712 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: your gut, all of your minds? Was that your idea 713 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: of Billions? 714 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 2: I was floating around with sort of the conceit of 715 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 2: it for about a year or two before I met 716 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 2: Brian and David, and I was actually. 717 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: Looking for Brian Kopple. 718 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: Brian Kaufman, Dave Levine, and I was looking for partners, 719 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 2: you know, folks who actually knew how to do this. 720 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 2: I was a novice, and originally I had this idea 721 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 2: of just I thought there should be a show about 722 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 2: hedge funds in that whole hedge fund space, and everyone said, oh, 723 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 2: that's a terrible idea, sor Ca. And nobody likes hedge 724 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 2: fund people. They hate Wall Street. They're not going to 725 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: want to watch a show, but and they're boring. They 726 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 2: look at TV screens all day. And I remember coming 727 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 2: home my wife was watching Law and Order, and I said, 728 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 2: you know what kind of shows people like? Procedurals, legal 729 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 2: shows they love. Why do they love a procedural? And 730 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 2: then I thought, if you could sort of pitch the 731 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 2: two against each other and even against type, so that 732 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 2: maybe you actually love the hedgephund manager, maybe you think 733 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: that the prosecutor isn't always knew doing everything in the 734 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 2: name of right. And I'd covered a lot of white 735 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: collar crime, and I knew the prosecutors were not always 736 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 2: doing everything in the name of right, and so I 737 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,959 Speaker 2: thought there might be an interesting program. And then I 738 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: happily met Brian and David in twenty thirteen thirteen, I think, 739 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 2: and then we sold the pilot. I think Can fourteen 740 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 2: made the pilot and maybe in fifteen in the show 741 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 2: was on the air in sixteen. 742 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: It was so great. You can still watch it, is 743 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: it on Netflix. 744 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 2: Or I think now it's on Paramount Plum. 745 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: That's what it is, Okay, Paramount plus. I get so 746 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: up with all those things. 747 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 2: Brian David did an extraordinary job and you know that 748 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 2: ran for seven seasons. 749 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing. Any other shows coming up? I am working 750 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty ninety one. 751 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 2: It could. We're actually talking to a couple of people 752 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 2: about so stand by for news there and now working 753 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 2: a couple other things. So nothing to announce yet, as 754 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 2: they say, but hopefully sooner than later. 755 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: Well nineteen twenty nine. It sort of reminds me of 756 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: The Guilded Age, only you know, like sixty years later 757 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: or something. And I love that show. 758 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: I love that show. 759 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: A few of the characters I love especially, But this 760 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: could be a really great show. Well, thank you, yeah, 761 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 1: really fun. So do you like the stock market? 762 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 2: Do I like the stock market? I'm fascinated by the 763 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 2: stock market. I'm actually fascinating more by the stock market 764 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 2: as a signal of sort of the psyche of the 765 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 2: country and the world and how people actually feel about 766 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 2: things that I am necessarily of trading as an act. 767 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 2: But I'm fascinated by companies, you know, I love the 768 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 2: sort of human drama of a company and a leader, 769 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 2: and why are they doing what they're doing, and why 770 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 2: are they going to make the investment or not make 771 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 2: the investment, or make the deal or do the merger. 772 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 2: For me, that's what really animates my interest in all this. 773 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,399 Speaker 1: And mixing that with your deep seated interest in journalism, 774 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: you have a very nice occupation. I mean, I think 775 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: it's just fascinating that you were able to turn the 776 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: journalistic interest into an interest in our financial markets, and 777 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: then into television production and all that stuff. You have 778 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: a good gig going. 779 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 2: I gotta knock on the wood, right, I got to 780 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: knock on the wood over here. 781 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: So all of this is just it's just mind boggling 782 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: to me that there's so much interest in the financial markets. 783 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: How big is your viewership on CNBC? 784 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: Oh goodness. I mean on any given day, you know, 785 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 2: we touch millions of people, and you know, the truth 786 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 2: is not the largest audience in the world. What's fascinating 787 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 2: about it is it really is the most influential audience 788 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 2: in the world. I mean, the amazing part about it 789 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 2: is I mean, look, you're watching it every morning, but 790 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 2: also the White House is watching it every morning. And 791 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 2: you know, the leaders all the big tech companies and 792 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 2: the leaders of the band. I can't tell you what 793 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 2: happens during the show. The emails you get and the 794 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 2: text messages you get are sort of shocking to see 795 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 2: all of these people. And by the way, it's bipartisan, 796 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 2: you know. Sometimes that's what I like. A political stay political. 797 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 2: You know, Ted Cruz is interested in the show, and 798 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Warren's interested in the show. 799 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: So because they're getting educated as we are each and 800 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: every day. So congratulations. That is a huge, huge accomplishment 801 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: than you in this day and age where take a 802 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: side and forget it. It's very difficult to do that. 803 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: I keep trying to persuade people who have businesses or 804 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: that are selling products. You can't take a side. 805 00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 2: And you got to hear all the science. 806 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, hell you do well. I can't wait for 807 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,240 Speaker 1: our listeners to pick up a copy of nineteen twenty 808 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: nine by Andrew Ross Sorkin. They are wherever books are sold. 809 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,280 Speaker 1: And do you think your biggest market is Amazon? 810 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 2: Probably? And I think Amazon these days is selling probably 811 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 2: about fifty or sixty percent of all books. I think, 812 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 2: for the most part. 813 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: Is this a good audiobook? Did you read it? 814 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 2: A great audio book? Did you write I read it myself. 815 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: Good. 816 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 2: It's about thirteen hours. You can even put it on 817 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 2: double time speed if you like. I know people, it 818 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 2: does only too. 819 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: This is only a round trip to Maine. 820 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 2: There you go. 821 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: See, And I'm going to drive to Maine. I'm not 822 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: going to drive. Somebody else is going to drive me. 823 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: And I'm going to listen to the entire book in 824 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: your voice. I hope I learned a tremendous come out 825 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: about one of the most fascinating events that ever occurred 826 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: in the United States, and hope it will not occur 827 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: again in such depth. Thank you Andrew Ross Sorkin for 828 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: your time today and good luck on your book tour. 829 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 2: Thank you, Martha Stewart, You're fun to talk to you 830 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 2: so much fun. 831 00:37:55,239 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: Thank you.