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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us

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Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen on

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Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Tuesday edition of Bloomberg Sound On. I'm

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Speaker 2: Joe Matthew in Washington. Two hours to go here until

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump's court appearance in Miami. Only two hours left.

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Speaker 2: Police say they're prepared for crowds of up to fifty

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Speaker 2: thousand people. Security is obviously tight. Certainly you would expect

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Speaker 2: that to be the case, particularly after Donald Trump posted

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Speaker 2: on social media, see you in Miami now. A lot

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Speaker 2: of lawmakers have been weighing in on this. Senator Lindsay

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Speaker 2: Graham included the Republicans. Speaking earlier with reporters, says, there

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Speaker 2: is no place for violence here.

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Speaker 3: There's no violent solution to this problem. We have a

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Speaker 3: legal system. He will be represented, there will be appeals,

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Speaker 3: This will go all the way to Supreme Court. There's

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Speaker 3: a belief on the Republican side that the law doesn't

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Speaker 3: apply equally to Republicans and Democrats. But there's no reason

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Speaker 3: to engage in violent activity.

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Speaker 2: In the middle of it all right now is Bloomberg's

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Speaker 2: Kaylee lines and joins us kindly with an update from

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Speaker 2: the courthouse. Kaylee, I just wonder, are you in the

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Speaker 2: middle of a throng of reporters or actual protesters or both?

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Speaker 4: The answer is both. There is a ton of media,

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Speaker 4: as you would expect here today, Joe, and there are

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Speaker 4: protesters as well, both pro Trump protesters, which are higher

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Speaker 4: in number, but also some anti Trump protesters, people holding

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Speaker 4: up signs that say things like lock him up. Certainly,

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Speaker 4: though I would say the number is nowhere near fifty thousand,

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Speaker 4: at least here outside the courthouse. I wouldn't even say

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Speaker 4: that it's more than maybe a hundred. So they are

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Speaker 4: relatively sparse, certainly, not the extreme that we thought we

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Speaker 4: may see here at the courthouse today.

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Speaker 2: Only two hours away. You figure that's probably what we're

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Speaker 2: going to get here, Kaylee. But I'll let you update

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Speaker 2: us as we move our way through the day here.

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Speaker 2: Kaylee's updating things on Bloomberg TV and radio give us

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Speaker 2: a sense of what's actually going to transpire here. As

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Speaker 2: we were discussing at this time yesterday, Killy, it's likely

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Speaker 2: we will not see the former President, how do they

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Speaker 2: plan to orchestrate this?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's correct. I am actually sitting next to a

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Speaker 4: garage entrance that I'm hoping maybe where his motorcade will

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Speaker 4: come through. But he isn't expected to actually walk and

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Speaker 4: be seen into the lobby, instead entering via an underground garage.

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Speaker 4: That could actually happen within the next hour. And then

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Speaker 4: once he is inside the courthouse, he will be processed

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Speaker 4: and arrested, just like anyone else who has faced federal

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Speaker 4: criminal charges. He could have his fingerprint taken. It appears,

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Speaker 4: according to reports that it's unlikely that they're going to

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Speaker 4: take his mugshot. And then of course he will head

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Speaker 4: up to the thirteenth floor of this courthouse, appear before

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Speaker 4: a judge, and is expected to plead not guilty to

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Speaker 4: all thirty seven federal criminal counts that he is facing.

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Speaker 4: And then, of course, Joe, once he's wrapped up here

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Speaker 4: at the courthouse, wrapped up in Miami, he's heading back

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Speaker 4: to New Jersey to address his supporters and donors at

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Speaker 4: eight fifteen pm Eastern time tonight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got a long day ahead here and as

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Speaker 2: Kill mentions, it could really begin at the courthouse in

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Speaker 2: the next hour or so. Kaylee, it's eighty eight degrees

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Speaker 2: right now in Miami, and I understand it's incredibly humid.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if that's doing anything to keep the crowds

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Speaker 2: down or if it's somehow making life difficult bring us

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Speaker 2: to the ground here.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's ninety degrees actually, and looking at my phone here, Joe,

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Speaker 4: the real feel right now is one hundred. So it's

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Speaker 4: pretty miserable when you add on that humidity. So that

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Speaker 4: made me be a reason why. I actually just ran

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Speaker 4: into a local rail station to grab lunch and there

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Speaker 4: were actually a number of people in their Trump gear

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Speaker 4: that were just hanging out and there, seeming to take

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Speaker 4: an air conditioning break. So that may be what is

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Speaker 4: distilling the crowd down a bit today. And we also

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Speaker 4: are on thunderstorm watch for the rest of the afternoon,

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Speaker 4: so great for US reporters that have to stand out

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Speaker 4: here no matter what. But maybe it's some protesters will

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Speaker 4: decide they're not going to brave the elements.

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Speaker 2: Today seems somehow symbolic. I don't know. I was going

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Speaker 2: to make the helicopter shots of the motor Kid a

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Speaker 2: little bit difficult. Kaylee, Thank you so much. We'll check

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Speaker 2: in with Kaylee Line's next hour Live from Miami. As

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Speaker 2: you heard, not only in front of the courthouse, but

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Speaker 2: she's right in front of the driveway there. We think

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Speaker 2: maybe a string of black SUVs will be passing through momentarily,

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Speaker 2: but we do not expect to see Donald Trump today.

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Speaker 2: And I want to pick up this conversation with a

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Speaker 2: real expert. Michael Zelden is back to talk to us today,

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Speaker 2: the former federal prosecutor, former special counsel to Robert Maller

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Speaker 2: while at DOJ. Michael, it's great to have you here

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Speaker 2: on this historic day. We were just talking with Kaylee

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Speaker 2: about the way this will proceed and I realized that

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Speaker 2: this is relatively brief what's going to happen here today,

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Speaker 2: but it is historic. Are we going to see a

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Speaker 2: mug shot of this president or that will not happen

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Speaker 2: as well because it's federal court.

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Speaker 5: It will not happen because he's the former president of

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Speaker 5: the United States. Got a federal court, you could get

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Speaker 5: a mug shot too, but they won't do that. In

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Speaker 5: the case of the former president. Everyone knows what he

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Speaker 5: looks like.

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Speaker 2: So when we say booking Michael, what actually is going

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Speaker 2: to happen.

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Speaker 5: Well, they will sign him in, they'll probably take his

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Speaker 5: singer prints, although that two probably isn't necessary, and they

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Speaker 5: will then do the administrative paperwork that they send up

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Speaker 5: to the judge, the magistrate judge in this case, who

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Speaker 5: will then either do a presentment or an arrangement, and

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Speaker 5: we're not sure yet which.

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Speaker 2: It will be, okay, and then the arraignment takes place.

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Speaker 2: He's whisked out, presumably from the same private driveway, and

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Speaker 2: he's back in his club a free man a short

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Speaker 2: time later. That's what you see.

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Speaker 5: Well, whether it's a short time or not, it depends

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Speaker 5: on the weather. I was a prosecutor in the Southern

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Speaker 5: District of Florida for a number of years. In the afternoons,

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Speaker 5: thunderstorms at this time of year ground planes to a

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Speaker 5: halt often. So he'll get back. I just don't know

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Speaker 5: whether it'll be quickly.

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Speaker 2: But that'll be the end of the business for today. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: he's got a speech set for tonight and he's going

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Speaker 2: to be talking to the media. Do we get a

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Speaker 2: trial date? Do we expect that much information today?

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Speaker 5: I think we'll get. Well, let's say one thing we're

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Speaker 5: assuming in this conversation that there is an arraignment, that is,

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Speaker 5: he's going to enter a plea of not guilty with

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Speaker 5: an attorney of record. If he doesn't have an attorney

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Speaker 5: of record who's going to stay through the duration of

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Speaker 5: the case, it'll just be a presentment where he'll say,

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Speaker 5: thank you very much for inviting me here, and when

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Speaker 5: I get a lawyer, I'll come back and enter my plea.

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Speaker 5: If the lawyers that are with him are going to

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Speaker 5: be entering official appearances, then they'll have an arraignment, he'll

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Speaker 5: plead not guilty. He'll get back in his suv and

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Speaker 5: head to the airport. If it's a presentment, then there's

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Speaker 5: a delay and he may have to come back again

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Speaker 5: for his guilty please, So.

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Speaker 2: The word is according to the Washington Post and other sources,

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg has had its own reporting that the former president

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Speaker 2: has been scrambling to identify a season Florida trial a

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Speaker 2: lawyer actually willing to take this case. What goes into

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Speaker 2: that calculation? I mean, that sounds ridiculous, I think to

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Speaker 2: the average listener here, Michael, because it's Donald Trump, he's

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Speaker 2: got a lot of money, this is high profile of

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Speaker 2: I guess it could make your career, but I suppose

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Speaker 2: it could break your career as well. Is he running

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Speaker 2: out of lawyers to call?

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Speaker 5: Well, I think he's got a lot of lawyers to call.

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Speaker 5: The question is whether any lawyers will say yes. The

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Speaker 5: problem is that except for the two lawyers actually three

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Speaker 5: who represented him in the Mueller investigation, you did a

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Speaker 5: bang up job and left on very good terms and

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Speaker 5: professionally as one ends a normal case. Everybody else has

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Speaker 5: either ended up as a witness, or have been fired

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Speaker 5: or haven't been paid. And so the client is what

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Speaker 5: makes the case complicated for a lawyer. If you have

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Speaker 5: a client who won't listen to you, who you may

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Speaker 5: not get fully paid from, and who you might end

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Speaker 5: up being a witness, for the decision to take it

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Speaker 5: is not easy, even though it's the former president of

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Speaker 5: the United States and it's the sort of case of

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Speaker 5: the decade at least, and most lawyers like that. So

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Speaker 5: very complicated because of who Trump.

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Speaker 2: Is, and we won't know till he shows up whether

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Speaker 2: he's actually got a trial lawyer of record.

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Speaker 5: Well, that's right. Could the two lawyers that he's got

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Speaker 5: now could inter official appearances and say we're their lawyers,

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Speaker 5: But if they get then a seasoned trial lawyer, because

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Speaker 5: these guys really aren't seasoned trial lawyers from Flora. If

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Speaker 5: they get that, then those guys could come in and

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Speaker 5: the other lawyers can ask to be relieved by So far,

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Speaker 5: he's as the paper's report, he's not getting a positive

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Speaker 5: response from the Florida bar.

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Speaker 2: I want to just touch the baseline for you on

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Speaker 2: this indictment, because I haven't had the opportunity yet, Michael Line.

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Speaker 2: We're hearing from lawmakers who have a lot to say

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Speaker 2: about this on both sides of the aisle here in Washington.

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Speaker 2: We've got another renewed round singing to us today here.

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Speaker 2: The idea that we're hearing from Republicans is that there

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Speaker 2: is a double standard, that Donald Trump is being held

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Speaker 2: to a higher standard than, for instance, Joe Biden or

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Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton, whose name keeps coming up here. This is

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Speaker 2: the Majority Leader, Steve Scalie speaking earlier today from the

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Speaker 2: US House, and i'll have your respond here.

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Speaker 6: He is I'm not an attorney, but I look at

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Speaker 6: the idea that justice is supposed to be blind and

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Speaker 6: just question and wonder is it being carried out fairly

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Speaker 6: when you have das in a state like New York,

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Speaker 6: running on the idea that they're going to go after

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Speaker 6: a person, not that they're going to just follow the

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Speaker 6: facts wherever they lead, but they're just going to target

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Speaker 6: individuals when the president's main opponent for his re election

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Speaker 6: seems to be treated in a very different way.

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Speaker 2: Now, of course, we've heard a lot about double standards

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Speaker 2: over the past couple of days. Here, Michael, with what

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Speaker 2: you know about the case. Should these charges have been

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Speaker 2: brought against the former president?

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Speaker 5: Yes, And let me say one thing, which is, if

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Speaker 5: you want to look for a comparison, probably the closest

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Speaker 5: comparison is that of Hillary Clinton. That Joe Biden case

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Speaker 5: is not at all comparable, and the Bragg case in

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Speaker 5: New York is wholly different than what the presence is

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Speaker 5: being charged with in this federal indictment. What I wanted

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Speaker 5: to read to you is a paragraph, it's very short,

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Speaker 5: from former FBI Director Comy on his decision not to

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Speaker 5: prosecute Hillary Clinton. He says, and I quote in looking

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Speaker 5: back at our investigations, is the mishandling or removal of

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Speaker 5: classified documents? We cannot find a case that would support

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Speaker 5: bringing criminal charges on these facts. All the cases prosecuted

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Speaker 5: involve some combination of one clearly intentional and wilful mishandling

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Speaker 5: and classified documents or vast quantities of materials exposed in

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Speaker 5: such a way to support the inference of intentional misconduct

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Speaker 5: or indications of disloyalty to the United States, or efforts

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Speaker 5: to obstruct the investigation. So that's why Comy said, no, here,

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Speaker 5: there's no case similar to Clinton's facts. Whereas if you

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Speaker 5: read that statement again, in willful mishandling and efforts to obstruct,

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Speaker 5: that is exactly what the prosecutors have charged in the

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Speaker 5: Trump case. So that's why the cases were brought. And

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Speaker 5: we'll see how the evidence comes in at trial and

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Speaker 5: whether he's exonerated or not.

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Speaker 2: Well, we sure are, and there's been a big conversation

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Speaker 2: about how the former president might fight this. There's something

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you about because it's important. It

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Speaker 2: hasn't gotten enough talk, and that has to do with

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Speaker 2: testimony from Donald Trump's former lawyer speaking of his legal

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Speaker 2: team here, Evan Corkran was allowed to essentially break attorney

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Speaker 2: client privilege based on what they call the crime fraud exception,

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Speaker 2: and this helped them learn a lot more about what

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump was up to here. Basically, you can use

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Speaker 2: the proper language here, Michael. If a client is using

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Speaker 2: his lawyer to further a crime, that does away with

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Speaker 2: the attorney client privilege. But is that going to be

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Speaker 2: attacked in Donald Trump's response here? Will that hold up

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Speaker 2: in court?

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Speaker 5: That's a great question, and I have been trying very

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Speaker 5: hard to figure out the answer to it. It seems

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Speaker 5: to me the decision by the judge in DC that

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Speaker 5: was running the grand jury that allowed the attorney client

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Speaker 5: privilege to be breached because of this crime frauduct sception

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Speaker 5: that you just said should be the law of the

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Speaker 5: case and it should stay with the case throughout its duration. However,

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Speaker 5: I believe good defense counsel will try to make an

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Speaker 5: issue of this because Evan Corkran Trump's lawyer, who took

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Speaker 5: notes and made audio tapes of their conversations, is the

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Speaker 5: most important witness the prosecutors have for the obstruction aspect

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Speaker 5: of the case, the part of the case which I

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Speaker 5: think is the most difficult to defend, and so if

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Speaker 5: they can keep him out, then the government's case doesn't

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Speaker 5: completely go away. But it really is that right, So

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Speaker 5: of course they will try it. But I don't think

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Speaker 5: they should succeed.

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Speaker 2: Well, is not the indictment on this testimony, right? I

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Speaker 2: mean if they if they remove this, the prosecutor is

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Speaker 2: going to have a much more difficult case to prove,

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Speaker 2: is what you're saying. Exactly, how does the special counsel.

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Speaker 5: Question joke your earlier question when you asked why is

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Speaker 5: he having trouble getting a lawyer? Evan Corcoran is exhibit A.

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Speaker 5: He was his lawyer, He's a very good lawyer, former prosecutor.

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Speaker 5: He ends up now being a witness in the trial.

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Speaker 5: No lawyer really wants that.

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Speaker 2: So that alone is enough reason for a trial lawyer

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Speaker 2: to say thanks, but no thanks. If they get the.

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Speaker 5: Call flat, do you think absolutely chill my interest in it.

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing you wouldn't take the case.

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Speaker 5: Michael, Oh no, not me.

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Speaker 2: Is the timing of this telling us anything about the

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Speaker 2: other investigation? By the way, people need to be reminded,

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Speaker 2: Jack Smith has a whole other case he's working on

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Speaker 2: involving the events of January sixth. We don't have any

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Speaker 2: reasonab believe that these cannot happen concurrently, right, that both

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Speaker 2: indictments could be delivered. We're not waiting for this to

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Speaker 2: resolve first.

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Speaker 5: That's correct. I don't think that Jack Smith would wait

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Speaker 5: to indict on the January sixth case if there's evidence

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Speaker 5: that warrants it, simply because he's already indicted. He's not

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Speaker 5: going to wait a year or to three however long

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Speaker 5: this case takes to prosecute before he returns that indictment.

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Speaker 5: Whether they schedule the trials in a way that one

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Speaker 5: follows the other, it remains to be seen, but not

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Speaker 5: in terms of the indictment itself.

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Speaker 2: Talking about this the rest of our lives, Michael, at

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Speaker 2: least I hope you'll stay with us for that long.

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Speaker 2: Michael Zelden, great conversation. We learned a lot, as always

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Speaker 2: from a former federal prosecutor. On an historic day here

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Speaker 2: with a former president of the United States being arraigned

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Speaker 2: in federal court. Will assemble the panel next. I'm Joe Matthew.

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Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to The Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the

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Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on bloom Berg Radio,

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Speaker 1: the Tune in a Half, Bloomberg dot Com, and the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa,

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Speaker 1: from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa, play

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 2: The former president do in a Miami Federal court just

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Speaker 2: about an hour and a half from now, although as

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Speaker 2: we learned from Michael Zelden earlier here on sound On,

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Speaker 2: he could show up in the next half hour or so.

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Speaker 2: Kaylee Lynes is on the scene for us and is

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Speaker 2: keeping us posted with everything that's happening in Miami, and

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Speaker 2: of course she's going to join us next hour as

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Speaker 2: she normally would, coming up an hour two of sound

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Speaker 2: On with some sounds and sights from the courthouse in Miami.

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Speaker 2: He'll just be an hour away at that point. And

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Speaker 2: you know that the chorus is singing today in Washington.

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Speaker 2: Whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, you probably have

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Speaker 2: something to say about this. Definitely your Viera Republican, about

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Speaker 2: the virtues of the case, the indictment now facing Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: Here's the Speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy, on this

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Speaker 2: whole idea of a double standard. Knowing that Joe Biden

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Speaker 2: is also being investigated for classified documents, remember the core

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Speaker 2: ven in the garage. Of course, he did not refuse

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Speaker 2: to hand them over and that's what really makes these different.

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Speaker 2: Unless you ask the speaker, has.

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Speaker 7: That a good look for the former president to have

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Speaker 7: boxes in a bathroom?

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Speaker 8: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Is it a good picture to have boxes in a

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Speaker 2: garage that opens up all the time?

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Speaker 8: A bathroom door locks?

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Speaker 2: A bathroom door locks, remembering the picture or the boxes

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Speaker 2: in the bathroom, the shower, the chandelier, Yeah, the toilet too.

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Speaker 2: And so we assemble our panel for the take on

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Speaker 2: the double standard here among other things happening. Say, we've

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Speaker 2: got a lot to talk about. Genie Shanzano is with us,

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg Politics contributor, Democratic analysts, joined by Chapin Fay, Republican strategist,

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Speaker 2: the former press secretary for Governor George Battaki. It's great

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Speaker 2: to have you both with us here. Chapin, Is it

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Speaker 2: worth Republicans sticking their necks out like this, loyal lawmakers

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Speaker 2: here in Washington before the indictment even takes place, the arraignment,

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Speaker 2: I should say, yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 9: Republicans for a long time, prior to President Trump, and

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Speaker 9: both Trump supporters and never Trump Republicans are always concerned

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Speaker 9: about this double standard.

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Speaker 8: You've heard some of the Republican lawmakers they had.

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Speaker 9: On the show earlier talk about that, and it just seems,

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Speaker 9: you know, whether President Trump committed a crime or not

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Speaker 9: is now up to the justice system and that will

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Speaker 9: play out. But when the left brings these cases, it's

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Speaker 9: done in such a political manner that some of it

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Speaker 9: doesn't pass the smell test. Right this Jack Smith was

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Speaker 9: involved in the IRS weaponization, you know, under President Obama

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Speaker 9: going after political opponents, and Trump, you know, personally has

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Speaker 9: suffered at some very political Democrats who are in positions

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Speaker 9: of law enforcement. For example, Representative Scalice mentioned the New

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Speaker 9: York State Attorney General Tis James, who ran on a

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Speaker 9: platform of saying I was going to find a crime

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Speaker 9: to prosecute President Trump on not he's committed a crime,

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Speaker 9: we're going to go after him, but we're going to

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Speaker 9: find one and we're going to prosecute him.

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Speaker 8: That's not exactly how the justice system should work here

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Speaker 8: in America.

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Speaker 2: Okay, But that also doesn't change the fact that he

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Speaker 2: had a lot of documents he shouldn't have and then

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Speaker 2: refuse to return them when he was asked. Do you

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Speaker 2: think that this indictment is fraudulent?

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Speaker 8: I wouldn't say it's fraudulent. But again, you can.

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Speaker 9: An indictment is a story, right in a narrative, and

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Speaker 9: President Trump is going to have his opportunity to refute

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Speaker 9: those narratives. And in today's you know, cluttered media environment,

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Speaker 9: it's hard to know what's true, what's right. You know,

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Speaker 9: as soon as an indictment comes out, one side says

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Speaker 9: it's you know, complete bs and the other side says,

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Speaker 9: you know, this is the this is the criminal that needs.

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Speaker 8: To be put in prison. So, like I said, I

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Speaker 8: think the justice system now will take over.

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Speaker 9: A judge and a jury will determine this and the

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Speaker 9: two sides will maybe we've got a deal beforehand.

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Speaker 8: We'll see before it gets to trial.

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Speaker 9: But you know, just taken as a whole, when you

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Speaker 9: look at all of the different attempts to use government

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Speaker 9: to take out a political opponent, it just looks like

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Speaker 9: there's a double standard from President Clinton to Hillary Clinton,

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Speaker 9: to Obama to Joe Biden. There are there are there

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Speaker 9: as smoke there, but no one asked any questions whether

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Speaker 9: there's a fire.

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Speaker 2: You know, there are something from folks like Bill Barlow,

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Speaker 2: his former attorney general, who said, you've even half of

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Speaker 2: this is true, he's toast. I mean, it's not it's

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Speaker 2: not like that. There there's a lot of question about

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Speaker 2: the actual charges in the indictment. The question is whether

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden should also be charged with something right.

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Speaker 9: Well, yes, and and I hate to get into, you

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Speaker 9: know what about ism right And as Michael Zeppel pointed out,

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Speaker 9: these cases are all very different, you know, even the

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Speaker 9: multiple cases against President Trump are are very different and

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Speaker 9: hard to compare.

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Speaker 8: I do believe, you know, some questions.

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Speaker 9: You know it it seems like the fore president is

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Speaker 9: being indicted while no one is asking any questions about

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Speaker 9: anyone else. That's what it seems like to a lot

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Speaker 9: of Republicans. And again, some Republicans who don't even support

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Speaker 9: President Trump are talking about this.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 8: This has always been the case we.

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Speaker 9: On the right field that the left politicizes the power

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Speaker 9: and wields the justice system, you know, the political system, impeachment,

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Speaker 9: all of these things.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not saying but you're saying that Democrats aren't

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Speaker 2: talking about Joe Biden a lot, because Republicans certainly are.

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Speaker 2: And we did hear from both this morning. That's where

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Speaker 2: Steve Scalisee's comment came from. Pete Aguilar on the Democratic side.

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Speaker 2: He chairs the House Democratic Cock has held his own

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Speaker 2: news conference earlier today as well.

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Speaker 10: The allegations are incredibly troubling, and the fact that House

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Speaker 10: Republicans continue to try to come to his rescue just

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Speaker 10: blows our mind, quite honestly, and it stems from the

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Speaker 10: fact that this is the leader of their party. They

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Speaker 10: lock Stock and Barrel will follow what the former president says.

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Speaker 2: What do you think about this, Genie Shanzano. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people are talking before he's even entered a plea.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, that's right, And I think it's important to separate

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Speaker 11: the legal aspects of this from the political aspects of this.

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Speaker 11: The reality is is that Donald Trump is going to

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Speaker 11: have his day in court to defend himself against these

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Speaker 11: very serious charges. As Bill Barr said, if even half

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Speaker 11: of them are proven true, this is somebody who we

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Speaker 11: have a transcript now who said, mens Rea, he knew

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Speaker 11: what he had, he knew he shouldn't have it, and

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Speaker 11: he's showing it to people without clearance. If even half

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Speaker 11: of that is true, and he has over three hundred

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Speaker 11: classified documents, that is a very very serious charge. People

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Speaker 11: have gone to jail for decades for far less when

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Speaker 11: it involves top secret information that jeopardizes national security and

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Speaker 11: all of our well being. And it's not just Democrats

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Speaker 11: saying this, it's Republicans as well. In the last twenty

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Speaker 11: four hours, NICKI Haley, Tim Scott, Mitt Romney and others

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Speaker 11: who have come out and said these are serious charges.

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Speaker 11: We have to separate those from the political aspect of this.

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Speaker 11: You just talked to Michael Zelden who said the fact

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Speaker 11: that the reality is is that the Hillary Clinton case

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Speaker 11: was legally a very different case. We don't know about

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Speaker 11: the issue with Joe Biden because it hasn't been fully

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Speaker 11: vetted yet, but when it is, we will be able

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Speaker 11: to come to judgment. Mike Pence a very different case,

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Speaker 11: and he has been cleared in that. And the difference

437
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 11: again is when asked, they handed over the documents. When

438
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 11: Donald Trump was asked and then subpoenad over a year,

439
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 11: he continued to hold those and then in fact move

440
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,879
Speaker 11: not one box, but at least sixty four boxes if

441
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 11: you believe the indictment. So there's a lot there to

442
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 11: chew on. But it is, you know, a very different

443
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 11: ballgame in court than it is in the political realm,

444
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 11: which is where all of this is being co mingled,

445
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 11: and that is not how it should be. Everybody should

446
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,199
Speaker 11: read the indictment and hold their fire and weight to

447
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 11: see what happens.

448
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 2: That's quite a progressive way of thinking. But then again, Genie,

449
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,239
Speaker 2: you're a progressive, so chapin you're advising Donald Trump on

450
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 2: what happens after the court appearance, because of course we're

451
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 2: not going to see that if you're trying to control

452
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,239
Speaker 2: the narrative in the optics today, what happens after he

453
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 2: leaves at three o'clock. We know he's going to the

454
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 2: golf club to speak tonight. What's his posture, what does

455
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: he say? How does he get coverage?

456
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 9: Well, we know President Trump a little bit by now.

457
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 9: I mean his post is going to be to fight,

458
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 9: to attack everyone in his path.

459
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 2: You know, if he goes too dark though, they start

460
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 2: bailing on the coverage. That's what That's what happened last

461
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 2: time after the New York indictment. I mean, he's he's

462
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 2: running for reelection, they do.

463
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, Well, he's he's running first in a primary.

464
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 8: So one of his target audience is certainly his supporters.

465
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 9: And you know other Republicans that some of the other

466
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 9: candidates maybe after.

467
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 8: But you know, I do this for a living. I always,

468
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 8: I always.

469
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 9: Like I said earlier, the indictment is a narrative, right

470
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 9: in this country. Were innocent until proven guilty, and that's

471
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 9: the that's the government's position, and without commenting on whether

472
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 9: they're right or wrong. Ultimately, President Trump has to fight back.

473
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 9: He has to counter the narrative we've seen in this country.

474
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 9: The media, you know, not a fan of Donald Trump,

475
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 9: and he needs to fight back. He needs to get

476
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 9: his own message, which he's been you know, skillful at

477
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 9: in the past, needs to break through the clutter in

478
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 9: order to defend himself. And again, you know, I would

479
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 9: never advocate for you know, targeting juries or anything like

480
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 9: that when he has to get his side of the

481
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 9: story out, just like the other side is able to

482
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 9: the government by bringing charges against you. Was whether you're

483
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 9: President Trump or whether you're an average citizen with with

484
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 9: with no funds or resources, by virtue of the government

485
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 9: bringing a diamond against you, it's incredibly difficult, right, Yours judges.

486
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: Are nature government, absolutely, Hey, Genie, should the president the

487
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,719
Speaker 2: former president maybe he goes back to mar A Lago

488
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 2: sits for an interview in the bathroom in the lake room.

489
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 2: I mean, wouldn't that be a winner where the boxes were?

490
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 11: Come on, Oh, I hope if he does that, Joe,

491
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 11: he does it with you.

492
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 2: It's not gonna be me.

493
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 11: And you know, we'll see if the door locks or not.

494
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 11: You know, I think we're going to hear a lot

495
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 11: from the President. I don't think his lawyers will want

496
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 11: him sitting down with anybody, but we know that he

497
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 11: will be talking. It's not legally the right thing to do,

498
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 11: but politically he's running for president. He's gonna get out

499
00:24:58,320 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 11: there and he's going to talk.

500
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 2: I can tell you right now, he's on his way

501
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 2: out of Durral. They're rolling and we've got visuals on

502
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: the motorcade. That's a lot of black SUVs heading to

503
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: the courtroom in Miami. A little early. As Kaylee Line suggested,

504
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 2: maybe he'll be there by two when we're talking with

505
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: her again. All right, our panel will stay put. We're

506
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: actually gonna turn our attention in a moment to the

507
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: blockade in the US House. Eric Wasason will join us

508
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: and we'll hear more from Genie Shanzano and Chapin Fay

509
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 2: on the Fastest Show in Politics.

510
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us

511
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the

512
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen on

513
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcast.

514
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: So when does the government shut down? How about October first?

515
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 2: We go with October first. Mick mulvaney made such a

516
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: prediction yesterday here on Bloomberg Sound On because we know

517
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 2: we're in for it after the blockade we saw in

518
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 2: the House discord over the debt ceiling deal, and the

519
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 2: latest moves by Republicans in the Freedom Caucus are really

520
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: making people wonder. It brings us to Eric Watson's headline

521
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 2: today on the terminal McCarthy's deal with Republican rebels risks

522
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 2: government shutdown. Remember the blockade We talked about it yesterday.

523
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: It went on for almost a week, upset about the

524
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: way this deal turned out, and eleven members of the

525
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 2: Freedom Caucus decided to block all business on the floor.

526
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: They even were sent home early at the end of

527
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 2: last week by Speaker McCarthy, who's dealing with the fallout

528
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: from not only the debt sealing saga, but his own

529
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: battle to win the speakership. Remember he used to talk

530
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 2: about the five families. You've seen The Godfather, right, do

531
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: you know the five families. It's not just the Freedom

532
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: Caucus he's dealing with. It's the Republican Study Committee, the

533
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: Republican Main Street Caucus, the Republican Tuesday Group, the Problems

534
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 2: Solver Is Caucus. Imagine them all around the table together.

535
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: Steve Scalise, the Majority leader earlier today, says they did

536
00:26:59,280 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: have a family.

537
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 6: Well, look, we just had a conference meeting where we

538
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 6: talked about some of this, but ultimately we've been having

539
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 6: meetings with both Freedom Caucus members, non Freedom Caucus members.

540
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 6: Our whole conference has been especially this. All revolves are unspending.

541
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 6: I mean, it's you know, the fiscal year twenty two

542
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 6: levels which we went back to in our original debt

543
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 6: ceiling bill, the Limits Save Grow Act had a lot

544
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 6: of important reforms in it, and then you know there

545
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 6: were some members that only wanted.

546
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 2: That remember that fiscal twenty two What he just said.

547
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: Faced with a rebellion on his right flank, Eric Watson Wright,

548
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 2: Speaker McCarthy agreed this week to push through the House

549
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: spending cuts one hundred and twenty billion dollars deeper than

550
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: cap set merely two weeks ago. Those caps the centerpiece

551
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: of a hard fought compromise, and Eric Watson is with us. Now,

552
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 2: this does not make the appropriations process look very easy

553
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: at this point, Eric, how does the Speaker control this?

554
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 12: Yeah, you know, it's definitely going to be very dicey.

555
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 12: There's no indication that the Senate would go They're probably

556
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 12: going to mark up bills to the cap. So that

557
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 12: creates a big difference between the House vision and the

558
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 12: Senate vision. Remember that the Republicans are going to plus

559
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 12: up the Pentagon by three percent, so it's actually like

560
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 12: one hundred and fifty billion dollars cut to everything else.

561
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 12: And I got a hold a copy of their outline,

562
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 12: their spending plan, and we're talking about thirty percent cut

563
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 12: to departments like labor and education, and you know, a

564
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 12: twenty five percent cut of transportation housing. So these are

565
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 12: these are levels of Joe Biden will not accept, that

566
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 12: the Democrats will not accept. And so you know, it's

567
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 12: just going to lead to a standoff that the White

568
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 12: House really and in trying to do the detinitally deal

569
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 12: they told me, and they're trying to avoid a default

570
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 12: and also a shutdown. It sounds like wish number two

571
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 12: is more dicey.

572
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 2: Right now, Wow, amazing, And it's it's worth noting here

573
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: that because Social Security, Medicare, the major entitlements were taken

574
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: off the table during that deal, Eric, they're dealing with

575
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: a much smaller piece of the budget. That's why these

576
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: cuts on a percent are so.

577
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 13: Steep, right, that's right.

578
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 12: This is a discretionary budget. It's about one point five

579
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 12: trillion dollars. It's how the agencies operate. But a lot

580
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 12: of things come under that where they're talking about housing

581
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 12: vouchers and Section eight, or you're talking about job training

582
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 12: or cancer research, that's all funded under this type of budget.

583
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 12: And you're gonna have to make choices that when they

584
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 12: come out on paper it might even be hard for

585
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 12: Republicans to pass with their own conference. You know, they're

586
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 12: they're more moderate members who might box. So it's going

587
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 12: to be a very difficult process, you know. And this

588
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 12: step sailing also has a one percent automatic cut to

589
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 12: everything including defense in January if they don't get these

590
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 12: bills done. So defense talks are very nervous that, you know,

591
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 12: instead of gating this three percent plus after the set

592
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 12: of gun they get a one percent cut to do

593
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 12: all the chaos.

594
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: Wow, this is going to be something you can already

595
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,959
Speaker 2: plan your coverage this fall, I'm sure. Eric. Thank you

596
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: for joining us. Eric Watson with us from Capitol Hill

597
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: and it's a great piece of reporting. He's even linking

598
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: to a pdf of the House GEO pe plan in

599
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: his story, so I point you to it on the

600
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: terminal as we reassemble our panel for their take on this.

601
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: Genie Shanzeno is with US Bloomberg Politics contributor and Democratic analyst,

602
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 2: along with Jape and Fay, Republican strategist former press secretary

603
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: for Governor George Pataki. Genie, this is going to be

604
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: a non starter, I presume for Joe Biden is going

605
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: to be a non starter in the Senate. Are you

606
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 2: bracing for a shutdown here? Is that going to be

607
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: the coda to the debt sealing dramas that we let

608
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 2: the government shut down this fall?

609
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 11: That is what it seems to be where we are headed.

610
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 11: And we heard from Pete Aguilera. You know, he said

611
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 11: he would not be surprised if it happens, because this

612
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 11: really is a non starter. And you know, I think

613
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 11: the message for Kevin McCarthy really is he really has

614
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 11: to not get too comfortable in his position. Even Matt

615
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 11: Gates was saying that. He was saying, you know, we

616
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 11: could be right back here next week. We need to

617
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 11: renegotiate this power sharing agreement, which I'm not even so

618
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 11: sure Kevin McCarthy thought he had a power sharing agreement.

619
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 11: And the you know, the cuts that that you were

620
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 11: just discussing, those are cuts that are non starters even

621
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 11: for many moderates in the House on the Republican side.

622
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 11: You know, we have a lot of moderates from Republicans

623
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 11: from New York here for whom those would not be

624
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 11: comfortable as they head into an election year.

625
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: Japein Fay or the Godfather for the day, You've got

626
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: all five families at the table, what do you do, boy,

627
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: I don't.

628
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 9: Envy Speaker McCarthy's position.

629
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: I could have major alcohol with the baseball bat. I

630
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 2: didn't go there. Chapin, Yeah, that.

631
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 8: Would have been a lot easier.

632
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 14: And that's one of the that's one of the problems

633
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 14: is you know, managing unruly carcass And I think what's

634
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 14: driving this though, is that you know, a lot of

635
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 14: Republican House members, particularly conservatives, believe they were sent there,

636
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 14: feel they were sent there.

637
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 9: To oppose uh and the the expansion and size and

638
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 9: scope of the federal government. So they are pushing and

639
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 9: negotiating hard for these cuts now while they are maybe

640
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 9: non starters, you know, I do think the administration of

641
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 9: the Democrats have to come back with some you know,

642
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 9: what they're willing to, what they're willing to accept and

643
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 9: cuts some of these you know, some of these House

644
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 9: members are very conservative, very ideological, especially on the size

645
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 9: of scope of government and taxpayer taxpayer dollars. And you know,

646
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 9: this is you know, we go through this every couple

647
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 9: of years. You know, we had a government shut down

648
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 9: under President Trump, and you know it's it's sort of

649
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 9: the highest possible stakes negotiations and trying to get all

650
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 9: five families to agree to something to to circle it

651
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 9: back here is almost impossible.

652
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 8: So it gets pushed to the brink every year.

653
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 9: So you know, I don't have any real good advice,

654
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 9: uh for for Speaker McCarthy other than he's you know,

655
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 9: he's got to keep his caucus sort of uh happy,

656
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 9: which you know, you see, you know, spills out into

657
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 9: the news every now and again. But this is really

658
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 9: driven by ideological conservative, conservative, fiscally conservative members of the House, and.

659
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: It's illustrating once again why no one else wants his job.

660
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: It's the definition of job security. Chapin Fay and Genie

661
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: Shanzeno with some final thoughts. Straight ahead, We'll let you

662
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: know when we're going to the mattresses. This is Bloomberg.

663
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the

664
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the

665
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App.

666
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

667
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

668
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: Welcome to our two of sound On, as we approach

669
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: a closer to the point of arraignment. Although we know

670
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: that Donald Trump has entered the courthouse here, he has

671
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: arrived in Miami and we want to bring you there now.

672
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: Bloomberg's Kaily Lions has been spending today at the courthouse

673
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: waiting for this moment that he sneaks in Kayley without

674
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: anyone seeing him, or.

675
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 15: Did you catch a glimpse I have not caught against

676
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 15: glimps not Joe, so unclear exactly where the president entered,

677
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 15: but ultimately we kind of knew right that we weren't

678
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 15: going to actually see him fully make his entrance. Be

679
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 15: likely would see him walk into the courthouse sort of

680
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 15: lobby that he was going to go in via Hunter ground.

681
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 15: Now once he's inside, of course, will be when he's

682
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 15: formally arrested and process and then go up to the

683
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 15: courtroom and be arranged plead not guilty we expect to

684
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 15: the judge on all thirty seven counts. But I would

685
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 15: say that the activity really has picked up outside of

686
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 15: the courthouse leading up to this hour, Joe. There is

687
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 15: a big rally of Trump supporters standing right outside, a

688
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 15: lot of them holding signs that say I Stand with Trump.

689
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 15: There is a lot of Trump flags being waved as well,

690
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 15: and someone holding up a T shirt staple to a

691
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 15: poster with Trumps a picture of Trump on it, a

692
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 15: fake mud shot that says not guilty.

693
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 2: What's the number of protesters look like? Not that I

694
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: want you to even attempt to headcount here, Kayley, but

695
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: in relation to the number of reporters there, maybe I

696
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 2: would say.

697
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 15: There are more reporters here than protesters at the moment, Joe,

698
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 15: I would not say certainly that this is a number

699
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 15: that is in the thousand, So I would say maybe

700
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 15: a couple of one hundred at least outside the courthouse

701
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 15: at the moment. There's more that have been walking around

702
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 15: the perimeter all morning. And there's a lot of cars

703
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 15: as well that are painted with I saw one trust

704
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 15: painted the President Trump and Jesus on it. There's a

705
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 15: lot of cars going by with Trump flag attached to them.

706
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 15: So there's a bit of an alternative motor kati if

707
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 15: you will, that's encirculating the perimeter as well. But I

708
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 15: would say, certainly this is not so potentially if I

709
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 15: have fifty thousand in number that Miami police were prepared

710
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 15: for today, wow, I'll tell you what.

711
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: Kaylee, many thanks. Keep us posted on what you see here.

712
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: Kaylee Lines live from Miami at the courthouse here reporting

713
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: for Bloomberg. Kaylee, if you're still with us, I'm just

714
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: curious if you can mention quickly the former president's plans

715
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: for later on once he leaves the courthouse. He's a

716
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: free man, obviously, and he's going to be addressing the nation.

717
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 15: Yeah, we'll see if he speaks the supporters upon leaving

718
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 15: the courthouse today or if instead he just goes back

719
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 15: to get on his plane that will take him back

720
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 15: to Bedminster, New Jersey, where we are expecting that he

721
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 15: will be speaking at eight fifteen pm Eastern tonight supporters

722
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 15: of his that are gathered there as well as donors.

723
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 15: This is going to be a campaign fundraising event, and

724
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 15: his campaign has said that they expect to raise two

725
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 15: million dollars tonight at that event up in New Jersey.

726
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 15: So it's a question of whether we're going to see

727
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 15: history repeat itself in some sense show because remember after

728
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 15: Trump was first indicted in Manhattan earlier this year, at

729
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 15: the end winds Rot rose, he got a boost in

730
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 15: the polls and he raised millions of dollars off the

731
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 15: back of that as well.

732
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 12: So it looks like the.

733
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 15: Trump campaign is trying to capitalize on this moment, and

734
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 15: he continually pushes this narrative that this is a weaponization

735
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 15: of the Justice Department election interference at the highest level

736
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 15: of continuation of the greatest witch hunt of all time.

737
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 15: He used his word, and certainly you're hearing some of

738
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 15: that same language from those up here supporting the boy.

739
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 2: Amazing, he's hoping to raise two million dollars to night. Apparently, Kayley,

740
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: we miss you in Washington. Please be careful down there

741
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 2: and keep us posted on what's going on. Bloomberg's Kaylee

742
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 2: lines at the courthouse along with the former president. If

743
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: you're just joining us, we can tell you that he

744
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: has arrived. Even though this was supposed to be a

745
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: three o'clock event. We did get a bit of warning

746
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 2: on that from Kayley showing up early to take care

747
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: of a couple of things here. He actually has to

748
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: be booked before they get into the actual arraignment process.

749
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, by the way, at least this is the

750
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: last time I heard his voice, not over the weekend,

751
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: the speeches the Miami or the Georgia convention. But he

752
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: actually ended up on a radio show yesterday, the Howie

753
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: car Show, talking about the case. He was there by

754
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: phone listen.

755
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 16: Didn't do anything wrong, did nothing wrong Presidential Records Act.

756
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 16: It's not even a criminal event. There is no criminality here.

757
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 16: It's ridiculous. And these people look, they're using it as

758
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 16: election interference. They're using it to get elected. They think

759
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 16: that if they can damage somebody's reputation they could do it.

760
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 16: This is like styling this whatever. This is the worst

761
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 16: nobody ever thought this could happen in our country.

762
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: Well, actually a lot of people saw this coming. And

763
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: here we are now, and of course we know that

764
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: there are tandem investigations here, well, at least there is

765
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 2: in Joe Biden. The one that was involving Mike Pence

766
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: has been cleared, and we'll wait to hear what happens

767
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 2: in the Joe Biden case from the Special Council. Meantime,

768
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: Jack Smith, the Special Council investigating Donald Trump, has finished

769
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: his work on this one. And that's why we want

770
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: to talk to Dave Ehrenberg once again with us on

771
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Radio. Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave, I've been

772
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: really looking forward to comparing notes with you now that

773
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: we're finally here at this day, and it looks like

774
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: a fairly simple one for the former president in terms

775
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: of what happens procedurally today. I suspect you're looking to

776
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: see if he will be represented by an actual trial

777
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: lawyer of records so we can have this arraignment.

778
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 13: Good, be back with you, Joe. He'll be represented, according

779
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 13: to reports by Christopher Keyes as the local attorney. He's

780
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 13: a very well respected former Florida Solicitor General who Team

781
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 13: Trump brought on a while ago with a three million

782
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 13: dollar retainer, and then Trump quickly dispatched him, sent him

783
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 13: to the sidelines because he didn't like Kai's advice. Kai

784
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 13: Has apparently wanted him to be conciliatory, cooperative with a

785
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 13: Department of Justice, and instead he listened to Boris Epstein

786
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 13: and became extra confrontational. And now you see where it

787
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 13: got him. But Kay's was available all along. I don't

788
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 13: understand the whole I can't find a Florida lawyer. It's

789
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 13: just that it seems like Boris Epstein, who seems to

790
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 13: be running the show, did not want Kais to be

791
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 13: the face of the Trump legal team. There's so many

792
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 13: egos involved on that side. You can see why there

793
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 13: are always problems involving his lawyers.

794
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Well, speaking of his lawyers here, I want

795
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: to ask you about this crime fraud exception that essentially

796
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: brings us to the center of the case. This involves

797
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 2: a former lawyer of Donald Trump's, Evan Corkoran. His testimony

798
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 2: brought into the case after that exception was triggered here,

799
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 2: which allows them to basically do away with attorney client

800
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 2: privilege on the allegation that Donald Trump tried to further

801
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: his crimes with his representation. If you can be more

802
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: eloquent in describing that, Dave, please take a stab at it.

803
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 2: But it seems to me that that would make life

804
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 2: pretty difficult in hiring a new lawyer.

805
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 13: Well, you have attorney client privilege, and that is sacristan,

806
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 13: but you can't use your lawyer to facilitate a crime.

807
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 13: You can't go to your lawyer and say want you

808
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 13: to hide the documents, I want you to lie. That's

809
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 13: obstruction and that will get your attorney client privilege pierced.

810
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 13: And that's what the court's ruled in the DC Circuit.

811
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 13: And because of that, the government got a treasure trow

812
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 13: of notes from his lawyer, Evan Corkoran. Now what's interesting

813
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 13: about that is that lawyers take notes, but nonelike Evan Corkran.

814
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:03,760
Speaker 13: Evan Corkoran took like like novels, like meticulous detailed notes,

815
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 13: I guess under the legal theory of CYA. And that's

816
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 13: why and that's why Trump's going down is because the

817
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 13: number one bit of evidence against him comes from his

818
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 13: own lawyer, right.

819
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 2: So a couple things there. That's the first thing that

820
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 2: Donald trump legal team will attack because without it, Dave,

821
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: it's not such a case. This is central to making

822
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: this indictment work. So could Donald Trump's legal team actually

823
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: strike that down on the grounds of attorney client privilege?

824
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 2: And what would happen to the case if they did.

825
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 13: There is an almost zero percent chance that he will

826
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 13: strike it down because of attorney client privilege because the

827
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 13: issue has already been litigated, it has been decided by

828
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,879
Speaker 13: the courts in the DC Circuit. Now, Trump's legal team

829
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 13: will ask Judge Aileen Cannon to revisit it, and if

830
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 13: she gives Trump what he wants, it will be outrage,

831
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 13: just like there was last year when she gave Trump

832
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 13: everything he wanted because she didn't follow the law, and

833
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 13: then it will go up to the Eleventh Circuit, which

834
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 13: will reverse her and repudiate her. So the one advantage

835
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 13: for Trump is that it gives him a chance to

836
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,959
Speaker 13: delay matters further. He can challenge the ruling down here,

837
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 13: but he's not going to succeed. But in a way

838
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 13: he wins by losing, because by losing in court. He's

839
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 13: going to have those delays that he loves because it

840
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 13: can push this case beyond the twenty twenty four.

841
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 2: Election, right, So that becomes the overall strategy. And maybe

842
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 2: you would have started there if I'd asked you, Dave, Delay, delay, delay.

843
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: That's it.

844
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 13: That's been his legal strategy. It's worked for him, and

845
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 13: he thinks that if he can push this beyond the

846
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 13: twenty twenty four elections, then the next Republican president he

847
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 13: believes it will be him, will then pardon Donald Trump. Now,

848
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 13: whether a president can parton himself is a question we've

849
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 13: never had before in our country's history. We don't know

850
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 13: the answer today. I think answer is no, but you

851
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 13: know it has he had to be decided. But it's

852
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 13: clear that a president of Santis or another Republican can

853
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 13: pardon from now. Where he cannot be pardoned is from

854
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 13: state crimes. He can't be pardoned if he gets convicted

855
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 13: in the state of New York or the state of

856
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 13: Georgia for the other criminal allegation surrounding him.

857
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: Dave, it was amazing to us when we all learned

858
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 2: here in the newsroom that there was a grand jury

859
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: in Florida, when did you hear about this? And are

860
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: you not amazed by the land speed record that was

861
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 2: set in transferring this from a grand jury in DC

862
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 2: to Florida.

863
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 13: Well, I found out when you did, Joe. I mean

864
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 13: you would think that.

865
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 2: Let's tell everybody. We were on a phone call together

866
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: with our colleagues Anne, Marie hory Dern and Kaylee Liones.

867
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: We're talking to Dave. Wait a minute, what is this

868
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 2: about a Florida grand jury?

869
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: Dave?

870
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 2: That was less than two weeks ago.

871
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 13: That's when I found out. And you would think us

872
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 13: local prospers would know this up, But no, No, the

873
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 13: Feds keep things close to the vest because I guess

874
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 13: they think for some reason that this local prosecut will

875
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 13: talk to Bloomberg about it. Probably are right now. They

876
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 13: didn't tell anyone in rightfully, so grand jury should be

877
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,959
Speaker 13: done in secret, and so they and paneled this grand

878
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 13: jury and it happened pretty quickly. They had him paneled

879
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 13: the grand jury in DC for many months. This one

880
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 13: was done pretty quickly, and I think what happened was

881
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 13: that at the Department of Justice they decided they did

882
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 13: not want to litigate the venue issue. They knew that

883
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 13: if they had brought this case in DC, even though

884
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 13: there are advantages to it. They knew Trump would challenge

885
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,919
Speaker 13: it and they would delay matters even further and could

886
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 13: ultimately undermine the entire case. They could eliminate the whole

887
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 13: case if things go awry. So that's why they did

888
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,439
Speaker 13: it down here. But now that they did it down here,

889
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 13: there are some pitfalls. They've got Judge Cannon, for example,

890
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 13: They've got a much friendlier political environment for Trump then DC.

891
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 13: So these are things they're going to have to overcome.

892
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 2: What are you looking to learn today, Dave? The trial

893
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: date tell us what what else our listeners should be

894
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: listening for.

895
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 13: I'm going to see how far from now the next

896
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 13: hearing will be, like will it be done quickly or

897
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 13: will there be more delays? And that'll tell you the timetable,

898
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 13: Like you'll get to see the tenor of the case,

899
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 13: whether the government is able to convince the magistrate judge

900
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 13: to put this on the rocket docket, and we'll see.

901
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 13: But I also want to see where the case is

902
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 13: going to be tried. Is it going to be tried

903
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 13: in Miami or is it going to be tried in

904
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 13: West Palm Beach or Fort Pierce that makes a difference.

905
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 13: I just want Trump would Well, Miami went for Trump

906
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 13: with forty six percent of the vote, Palm Beach County

907
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 13: less so forty three percent. But also Miami has a

908
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 13: history of acquitting public officials charged with corruption. A lot

909
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 13: of people in Miami come from Latin America and they

910
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 13: have their personal experiences against communism and strong men. Which

911
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 13: is ironic because you know, people who hat strong men

912
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 13: flocked to Donald Trump as sort of a I wrong saying.

913
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 13: But if they've fled countries because of socialism and communism,

914
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 13: they have a distrust of the government, and when government

915
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,760
Speaker 13: brings charges against the politician, there's a lot of convincing

916
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 13: that needs to be done. And there's a history of

917
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 13: acquitting people on corruption charges in Day County less so

918
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 13: in Palm Beach County. Palm Beach County went for Trump

919
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 13: with forty three percent of them. And it is a

920
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 13: better environment to get a conviction against the former president.

921
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 2: So that's what he's hoping for us. He walks into

922
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 2: court today in Miami that this is the last time

923
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 2: he visits that courthouse.

924
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 13: Well, no, I think he wants the trial to be

925
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 13: in Miami as opposed to Palm Beach County, because I

926
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 13: think he thinks there's a better chance down there. But

927
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 13: also it's a slept down there. I know it's a

928
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 13: technical legal term, but it is a long drive from

929
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 13: West Palm But do you know that Miami's seventy one

930
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 13: miles from West Palm Beach. I mean, even if.

931
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 2: You have a hell, I'll have a helicopter escort every

932
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 2: time he makes that drive in the SUVs, right, Yeah.

933
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 13: Who wants that? And you know whose decision really will

934
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 13: be will be Judge Cannon. And she lives close to

935
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 13: me up here in West Palm Beach. I don't think

936
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 13: she's gonna want to drive down there every day.

937
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: When will we find that out? Though today?

938
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 13: In terms of venue, we could find that out today,

939
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 13: or it may be delayed a little bit. Again, I'm

940
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 13: eager to see how quickly this thing moves. Any delay

941
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,479
Speaker 13: works to the benefit of the defendant in this case.

942
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 2: Here's the good news. Dave Ehrenberg's going to join us

943
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 2: on Balance of Power on Bloomberg TV at five pm

944
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 2: Washington time. Dave, I'll talk to you then. Many thanks

945
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: for being a trusted voice and a candid voice throughout

946
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: this process. That's the Palm Beach County State Attorney talking

947
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: with us here on Bloomberg Radio and bringing us inside

948
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: the process. We're going to bring you inside the newsroom.

949
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 2: Coming up next, Wendy Benjaminson joins us from Bloomberg News

950
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 2: along with Jane Hall of American University. How do you

951
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: cover this? This is Bloomberg.

952
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the

953
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the

954
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: tune in apt, Bloomberg dot Com.

955
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 2: And the Bloomberg Business App.

956
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

957
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

958
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: Donald Trump hopes to raise two million dollars tonight. That's

959
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 2: the plan. But when he gets back to Durral talks

960
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 2: to the supporters, have we addressed the fact that it's

961
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 2: his birthday? Where is tomorrow?

962
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 8: The birthday?

963
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 2: Tomorrow is right, James, Tomorrow's the birthday. That means tonight

964
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: though I predicted this last evening on Balance of Power.

965
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 2: When all the cable nets rush to the podium as

966
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 2: he walks up there to deliver this historic speech, they're

967
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: all going to have to sit through the rendition of

968
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: Happy Birthday that supporters will sing in the ballroom. Right.

969
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 2: It's like when you go to the event and they've

970
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 2: started the national anthem, you can't bail now. That'll be

971
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 2: tonight in d rally suspect, but two million dollars predicated

972
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: largely on, let's admit it, the coverage he gets following

973
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 2: his historic day in court. Is Donald Trump using the

974
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:06,479
Speaker 2: media or are the media using Donald Trump? Some big

975
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 2: thoughts here with Wendy. Benjaminson, Bloomberg's Washington senior editor, is

976
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: with me here in studio. We're joined as well by

977
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: Jene Hall, the Associate Professor of Journalism, Politics, and Media

978
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: the School of Communication at American University. Jane, it's great

979
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 2: to have you back. Thanks for joining us. And Wendy,

980
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 2: it's always great to see you here. Wendy, we'll start

981
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 2: with you because you're actually editing copy, yes, about this

982
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 2: stuff that goes on the terminal and the website and

983
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: out to the world. You're part of the process here

984
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: in disseminating this information. And there are a lot of

985
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 2: questions right now about how we cover Donald Trump in

986
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 2: this cycle, particularly after the CNN town hall that we

987
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,919
Speaker 2: watched real time fact checking is not working terribly well,

988
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 2: and you wonder what is the calculation tonight and carrying

989
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 2: a speech like this. Is it a news event, is

990
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: it a political fundraiser or is it just always going

991
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 2: to be all the above?

992
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 17: Well, I really think the way to judge whether to

993
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 17: cover what Donald Trump says, and this really is our

994
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 17: you know, sort of internal Bloomberg rule, is if he

995
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 17: says something new, the definition of news is new, something's

996
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 17: new to say. If he says, you know, it's a

997
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 17: witch hunt, it's unfair, it's all of this. We would

998
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 17: write a story saying Donald Trump held a fundraiser and

999
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 17: hope to make two million dollars, but the quotes would

1000
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 17: be at a very very minimum. We would I just

1001
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 17: don't think a lot of media are are, especially after

1002
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 17: watching what happened with CNN, wanting to do make the

1003
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 17: same mistake that we all did in twenty sixteen and think,

1004
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 17: get a load of this guy. You got to see

1005
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,240
Speaker 17: this and watch it like a train wreck in slow

1006
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 17: mo where you can't turn away, and then realize that

1007
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 17: he's suddenly president of the United States. So I think

1008
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 17: there is there is there's a real what's the sort

1009
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 17: I'm looking for? Measuring you have to do every time

1010
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 17: he's going to open his month.

1011
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 2: It's like a real time exercise. Supposed journalism is Jane

1012
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 2: Hall Steve's Scalise, the majority leader of the Republican Ledhouse,

1013
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 2: accused what he sees as the liberal news media earlier

1014
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:14,399
Speaker 2: today of not only bias, but sensationalized reporting around Donald Trump.

1015
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 2: He seems to think that reporters are feeding off of this,

1016
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 2: leading the news with it while not paying attention, for instance,

1017
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 2: to Joe Biden's classified documents case. How would you answer him?

1018
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: Is Jane Hall with us, Yes, I'm here, all right, Jane,

1019
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 2: did you hear my question? How about I ask it again?

1020
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 2: How okay? Let's just imagine the majority leader talking to

1021
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 2: you here, Jane Hall, about your coverage. Listen to what

1022
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 2: he said. We'll have your response.

1023
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 6: There was a box that was shown with all these

1024
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 6: documents spewed out, and as people looked at those documents,

1025
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 6: it turned out it wasn't anything classified. It was newspaper

1026
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 6: clippings and some personal items presented to try to give

1027
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 6: the impression that there's all these classified documents just laying

1028
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 6: around on the floor, And yet you contrast that with

1029
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 6: Joe Biden's garage, where there were classified documents going back

1030
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 6: to when he was a United States Senator.

1031
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 2: So, Jane, should reporters be spending more time on Joe

1032
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 2: Biden's case or is this fair journalism?

1033
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 18: Well? I think it's a false equivalent. And I think

1034
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 18: the story is Donald Trump and the thirty nine charges

1035
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,359
Speaker 18: against him and the coverage that's happening today. Not that

1036
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 18: Biden shouldn't be looked into, but I think that this

1037
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 18: is no offense a tactic to try to make these

1038
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 18: things equal. If you read what Trump is accused of,

1039
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 18: it is way beyond a few documents behind the corvette.

1040
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 2: Well, it sure is, Jane. And so then it becomes

1041
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 2: a question of how do you cover Donald Trump today?

1042
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 2: And we were just talking about this with Wendy Benjaminson.

1043
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 2: The news process is a sticky one. This is a

1044
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 2: moving target, and you're covering someone who does not always

1045
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 2: have an affinity for the truth. So where are the guardrails?

1046
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 18: Well, I think that you're raising such a good question.

1047
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 18: I think that you know, the last time we talked

1048
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 18: about the CNN town hall, the guard world's weren't in place.

1049
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 18: And and I think that the media are figuring this

1050
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 18: out as they go along. My senses, the coverage of

1051
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 18: this has been has been good. There are millions of

1052
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 18: people streaming this, listening to this. It is a legitimate, serious,

1053
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 18: historic story. I think what is going to be a

1054
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 18: test for the news media is not necessarily the arraignment today.

1055
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 18: But how do they cover what Trump says later? You know?

1056
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 18: Do they repeat what he puts out on.

1057
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 9: His social media?

1058
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 18: Do they just take him live? Which I think you

1059
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 18: really cannot take this man live without helping his cause

1060
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 18: he's too canny and it's very hard to contradict lies

1061
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 18: and falsehoods in real time.

1062
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 2: Then again, Wendy, he's and look, we just addressed this,

1063
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 2: but he is a candidate running, a former president running

1064
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 2: for reelection. Do you not carry his rallies for the

1065
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 2: remainder of the cycle? Is this kind of a game

1066
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 2: day call?

1067
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 17: Well, again, I think you use the same news judgment

1068
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 17: you use for anyone else. Is he an important candidate? Yes?

1069
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 17: Is what he says by definition? Then news?

1070
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 5: Yes?

1071
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 17: But is it new? Is he saying anything new? And

1072
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 17: we will break away from Joe Biden, we will break

1073
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 17: away from Nikki Haley, we will break away from Tim

1074
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 17: Scott if what they are saying is no longer news,

1075
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 17: and then report on what he says new. The trouble

1076
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 17: is that Donald Trump is kind of like one of

1077
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,280
Speaker 17: those uncles at Thanksgiving that tells you the same story

1078
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 17: all the time, and the you know, and after a while,

1079
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,919
Speaker 17: there's just no point in reporting that. That doesn't mean

1080
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 17: anyone is more against him or for him than anything.

1081
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,439
Speaker 17: It's just not news anymore. If he says he's going

1082
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 17: to do something like give a speech a beaut menster

1083
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 17: at eight fifteen tonight, yes we say that we have

1084
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 17: a reporter up there, but we're not going to write

1085
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 17: a massive separate story because he's giving a speech insuryments.

1086
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 2: Jane Hall. I think we can all admit that a

1087
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 2: big reason why Donald Trump became president to begin with

1088
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 2: is because he's the king of so called earned media.

1089
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 2: He gets the coverage, and people were covering him because

1090
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,919
Speaker 2: it was getting good ratings. He made people laugh, he'd

1091
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 2: say something outrageous, you'd have better ratings tomorrow, and everybody

1092
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 2: started kind of glomming on here. We're obviously in a

1093
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 2: different world now post January sixth, Although some wondered if

1094
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 2: CNN was getting back to that when it held the

1095
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 2: town hall a couple of weeks ago, particularly the way

1096
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 2: the crowd was handled. But the fact of the matter

1097
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 2: is Donald Trump is going to raise a couple of

1098
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 2: million dollars tonight. Is that the media's fault.

1099
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 18: Well, you know, I don't think we can blame it

1100
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 18: on the media. I think that the tricky part is

1101
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 18: how much coverage. It's not cover, don't cover. But the

1102
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 18: rhetoric this time, the rhetoric post January sixth, including from

1103
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,359
Speaker 18: people saying this is war, including from people who who

1104
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 18: are who are calling for violence, of that kind of

1105
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 18: rhetoric is dangerous, and I don't think it. Trump is

1106
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 18: fundraising off of the sense that he's portrayed himself as

1107
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 18: a martyr, and he's so frankly brilliant at saying I'm

1108
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 18: here for you and this is about you being victimized,

1109
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 18: I mean, which is of course not true. But many

1110
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 18: people who showed up for January sixth said they were

1111
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 18: there for Donald Trump. That to me is where we're

1112
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 18: in more dangerous territory. He is the leading candidate, and

1113
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 18: if the Republicans do not if the Republican candidates do

1114
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 18: not take him on, then it's going to be up

1115
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 18: to the media and to take him on if that's

1116
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 18: the role that they should be playing.

1117
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: And I think that's.

1118
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 18: A really difficult role if people in his own party

1119
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 18: begin to criticize, and then you've got a more traditional

1120
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 18: news story.

1121
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 17: And Jane, you make an excellent point. And I do

1122
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 17: think that one of the differences here between just a

1123
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 17: random Trump rally and a random CNN town hall or whatever,

1124
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 17: is that today is a moment in history. This is

1125
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 17: American history happening. We have the former president of the

1126
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 17: United States and the front runner for the GOP nomination

1127
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 17: being indicted in federal court on espionage charges. You cannot

1128
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 17: get bigger news than that, right, I mean, whether it

1129
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 17: helps him or hurts him or whatever, it's news, right,

1130
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 17: you have to cover it.

1131
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 2: Thank you for bringing us back to basics. This is

1132
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 2: why we need Wendy Benjaminson in the newsroom. You wish

1133
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 2: you had Wendy yours. Thanks for being with us. Wendy

1134
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 2: is of course Washington Senior editor. And Jane Hall joining

1135
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 2: us from the School of Communication at American University. A

1136
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 2: really important conversation. You're not going to hear anywhere else

1137
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 2: in Jane, I thank you for coming back to talk

1138
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 2: to us.

1139
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: You're listening to The Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us

1140
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the

1141
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen on

1142
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcast.

1143
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 2: The fastest show in politics with an eye on Miami today,

1144
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 2: even though we are in Washington, Bloomberg's Katie Lines is

1145
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 2: at the courthouse in Miami where Donald Trump has arrived

1146
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: and the associated presses reporting he rode in the motorcade

1147
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 2: along with his son Eric. This is a sound from outside

1148
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 2: the courthouse here and as you can imagine, I've been

1149
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 2: a couple of helicopters in the air the last little bit.

1150
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 2: As they made their way from the President's the former

1151
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 2: President's Dorale resort to the Federal Courthouse in Miami. The

1152
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 2: President stopped, waved at supporters, had a couple of words

1153
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 2: with staff members, Eric Trump appearing to clap his dad

1154
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 2: on the back just before they climbed into the vehicle

1155
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 2: for the ride. Here outside the courthouse, we heard from

1156
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's lawyer, Malina Habba said, quote today is not

1157
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 2: about President Donald J. Trump, who is defiant. It's not

1158
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 2: about the Republican It is not about the election, she said,

1159
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 2: and this is a quote. It is about the destruction

1160
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 2: of long standing principles that have set this country apart.

1161
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 2: That arraignment, of course, scheduled for three pm Eastern Time,

1162
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 2: that's a little more than fifteen minutes from now, And

1163
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 2: we'll have a lot more on this for you throughout

1164
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 2: the day here on Bloomberg Radio elsewhere in Washington. This

1165
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 2: would have been one of our top stories on any

1166
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 2: other day. As the Federal Reserve begins it's two day confab,

1167
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 2: the same day we get the CPI report showing inflation

1168
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 2: slowing here and as I read on the terminal giving

1169
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 2: room for the Fed to pause rate hikes. And we

1170
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 2: want to talk about this with somebody who knows about

1171
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 2: it a little more than I. Kate Davidson is with us,

1172
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 2: Bloomberg's Fed editor who works out of the Washington bureau here.

1173
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 2: Kate's great to see you. This is really important data.

1174
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 2: As a lot of people looked at this week as

1175
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 2: a major inflection point in the future of interest rates.

1176
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 2: The Feds fight against inflation in the way the markets

1177
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 2: are looking at all of this. That CPI number came

1178
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 2: in a bit light today, but but year to year

1179
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:05,919
Speaker 2: is still a bit tough for the way the Fed

1180
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 2: is going to look at this, right, how much room

1181
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 2: does it actually give policy makers?

1182
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, and thanks for having me. So I think that,

1183
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 7: you know, the upshot for the Fed is this report

1184
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 7: didn't really give them a reason to change their plans

1185
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 7: that they've signaled, which is that they're probably going to

1186
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 7: forego a rate increase this week, and that would be,

1187
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 7: you know, the first time that they've they've skipped an

1188
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 7: increased since they started raising rates in March of twenty

1189
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 7: twenty two. So that's of course significant. And I think

1190
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 7: that you know, clearly this report showed that there's been

1191
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 7: some progress. But you know, as we've been writing about

1192
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 7: inflation for so many months, we start to have kind

1193
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 7: of this warped view, like it's important to point out

1194
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 7: prices are still very high, like this is you know,

1195
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 7: you know, the Fed uses a different gauge as we're

1196
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 7: talking today about the CPI, the Consumer Price Index. The

1197
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 7: FED looks at something different and their goal that they

1198
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 7: target for those prices is two percent. You know, there's

1199
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 7: still a lot, a lot higher than where they want

1200
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 7: to be. So the CPI today came in four percent

1201
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 7: year over year the headline number, but the core if

1202
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 7: you strip out food and energy, which can be volatile,

1203
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 7: still five point three, right, And I mean you're not

1204
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 7: seeing as much progress.

1205
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 2: On the last It's a little bit hotter than you expected.

1206
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 7: Wasn't it a touch higher?

1207
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1208
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 7: I mean I think economists surveyed by Bloomberg had forecast

1209
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 7: five point two. So yeah, it's definitely an improvement, but

1210
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 7: it's not as much of an improvement if you listen

1211
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 7: to what FED officials have been saying since the last

1212
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 7: meeting and in recent weeks, they're just not that impressed

1213
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 7: with how, you know, how quickly we're seeing progress. I

1214
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 7: think they want to They want to see these numbers

1215
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 7: coming down a lot faster.

1216
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 2: It's kind of amazing how stubborn this has been, right

1217
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 2: historically speaking, And we're not expecting, to your point, a

1218
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 2: rate hike tomorrow, but we're hearing about the hawkish pause

1219
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 2: or or the hawkish skip. What does that mean? No hike?

1220
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 2: And then Jay Powell comes out of the news conference

1221
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 2: and blows everyone's mind. He scares everyone to do another

1222
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 2: rate hike.

1223
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 7: That's basically it, right, So there's a few tools he

1224
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 7: can use. So sure, if the decision is okay, we're

1225
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 7: going to we're going to hold rates steady, We're going

1226
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 7: to keep them where they are, we could see changes

1227
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 7: made to the policy statement that comes out at two o'clock.

1228
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 7: That's one communications tool. We're not really expecting them to

1229
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 7: make big changes because the last time they met, the

1230
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 7: statement kind of left the door open and implied, you know,

1231
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 7: that they could raise rates further even you know, even

1232
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 7: if there was a pause. So we might see a

1233
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 7: tweak there. But what I think we'll really hear is

1234
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 7: when Powell comes out at two thirty, half an hour

1235
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 7: after the statement is released and the decision is announced.

1236
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 7: He'll come out and he'll give an opening statement before

1237
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 7: he starts taking questions from the press. And I think

1238
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 7: that that is where he could really lean into this

1239
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 7: idea that we are not done. Okay, we decided to

1240
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 7: take a breather today. We want to assess how our

1241
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 7: rate hikes. You know, we've gone above five percent in

1242
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 7: a little over a year, which it's time for us

1243
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 7: to kind of take a step back and see how

1244
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 7: the effect of those hikes are filtering through the economy. Also,

1245
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 7: we had a little mini bank crisis just a few

1246
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 7: months ago, and then you know, we we don't really

1247
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 7: we haven't really had quite enough time to see how

1248
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 7: that's affecting credit conditions and potentially slowing things down. That's

1249
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 7: going to be argument. So, right, how much does he

1250
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 7: lean into the idea that they might hike again in

1251
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 7: July or September. You know, at some point in the

1252
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 7: coming months.

1253
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 2: If I were in that FED lock up and asking

1254
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 2: questions tomorrow, I'd be asking about this piece that your

1255
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 2: team put up yesterday. FED backs away from wages focus,

1256
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 2: bolstering the case for ray pause, and you're pointing to

1257
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 2: new research and of course commentary from FED officials on this,

1258
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 2: because the whole idea here, Kate, was we can't stop

1259
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 2: hiking race with a job market this strong. Wages are

1260
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 2: just too high, and we're going to have to kind

1261
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 2: of wreck the job market to prevent inflation from taking

1262
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 2: hold in the long term.

1263
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 7: What's changed, Sure, so we've heard and these are subtle changes, right,

1264
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 7: we should be clear, But we've heard some FED officials

1265
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 7: start to take a little bit of a different tone.

1266
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 7: Some of them have been more outspoken. Your Chicago FED

1267
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 7: President Austin Golesby has come right out and said, you know,

1268
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 7: he's really not convinced that wages and fast wage increases

1269
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 7: have been a primary driver of inflation or the inflation

1270
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 7: that we're seeing now kind of a primary reason why

1271
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 7: it's been so stubborn. And Jay Powell, who has previously

1272
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 7: talked about the need as you pointed out, to kind

1273
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 7: of cool the labor market and the wage gains are

1274
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 7: just you know, at the pace that wages are rising,

1275
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 7: it's just not consistent with two percent inflation. He's leaned

1276
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 7: into that idea, but he was he kind of paired

1277
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 7: back those remarks a little bit at the last press conference.

1278
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 7: Actually was our colleague Matt Bosler who was in there

1279
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 7: and had asked him about about how he saw this connection,

1280
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 7: and he said, well, right, it's not really clear, and

1281
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 7: there's a lot we don't really understand about how these

1282
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 7: two things interact and whether wages are driving inflation or

1283
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 7: whether inflation is driving faster wages in other words, you know, prices.

1284
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 7: We talked to someone for this story that has a

1285
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 7: small retail clothing store in Portland, Oregon, and they said,

1286
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 7: you know, we always gave our employees a little bit

1287
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 7: of a wage increase each year, but now we felt

1288
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 7: like we had to give a bigger one because of prices.

1289
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 7: In other words, they were following the inflation. It wasn't

1290
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 7: the other way around. So there's been some research from

1291
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 7: the San Francisco Fed also kind of backing up this

1292
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 7: idea that that faster wage increases have contributed only minimally

1293
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 7: to the increase in services inflation that we're seeing, which

1294
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 7: is that's kind of the category that has fed officials

1295
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 7: most concern.

1296
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:07,440
Speaker 2: That's been more summertime. These rising wages and healthy, well

1297
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 2: at least strong job market is the reason why a

1298
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 2: lot of folks don't expect a recession to take hold.

1299
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 2: So maybe this is a this is a really good

1300
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 2: news story on both sides.

1301
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 7: Maybe, I mean, how this is all going to unfold

1302
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 7: over the coming months, You know, it's everyone, all of

1303
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 7: us have continued to be so surprised by how well

1304
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 7: the economy has held up, and I think sometimes occasionally asked,

1305
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 7: we are we in this soft landing?

1306
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 11: Is this?

1307
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 7: Are we feeling it right now?

1308
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 8: That's the question.

1309
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 7: You know, this this recession keeps getting pushed out, so

1310
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 7: we'll see.

1311
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 17: Where it goes.

1312
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 2: God knows it, and we'll stay in touch with Kate Davidson.

1313
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 2: Many thanks to you Kate for a great conversation. That's

1314
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 2: why she's the fed editor here at Bloomberg, and that

1315
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 2: meeting is underway. Of course, we'll let you know around

1316
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 2: this time tomorrow, a little bit earlier, how things turn

1317
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 2: out with interest rates. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington. This

1318
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 2: is Bloomberg. Thanks for listening to the Sound on podcast.

1319
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 2: Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, Apple, Spotify,

1320
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 2: and anywhere else you get your podcasts, and you can

1321
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 2: find us live every weekday from Washington, DC at one

1322
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 2: pm Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com