WEBVTT - #094 Jason Flom with Messiah Johnson 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.760 This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:05.800 to monitoring and recording. 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:19.799 Impact ere and it hasn't been easy. 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.160 One hundred years. That's man. 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:21.720 I'm a kid. 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:25.000 I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:29.040 that was Ah, that was real painful, man, No, because 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.479 my life was discarded as if you know, like I 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.320 was a piece of trash or something, you know, one 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.400 hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted to 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:38.680 do things I wouldn't. 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:39.680 Commit in crimes. You know. 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:42.160 I was a very good young man. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.080 That is what happens in so many cases. The cops 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.120 have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene, 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.880 they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.320 they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:57.960 marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so 0:00:58.080 --> 0:00:59.600 many of these wrongful convictions. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.320 They open it to cell door and I'll walk downstairs. 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:08.720 And I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.800 very strange to be, like I said, to be walking 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.200 without those shackles on my feet. I thought it was 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:16.360 a dream. But then again it wasn't a dream. 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:29.680 This is wrong for conviction. Welcome back to wrong for conviction. 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:35.120 My guest this week is Messiah Johnson. And Messiah, first 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:36.160 of all, welcome to the show. 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.320 Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure being here. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:43.840 So Messiah, this case and let's go back. It's a 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:44.720 Virginia case. 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:45.319 It is. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:48.000 You came from Norfolk. 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:53.160 Yes, and this goes back to late nineties, right, Yes, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:53.960 it goes back. 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:58.080 To December nineteenth, nineteen ninety seven. The crime actually happened 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:00.120 on December fifth, nineteen ninety seven. 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:01.800 The nineteenth was the day of my rest. 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.960 This was an arm robbery of a hair salon in 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.639 Norfolk in which nobody was hurt. That doesn't make it right, 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:13.639 Don't get me wrong. I'm not in favor of armed 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:17.480 robberies by any stretch of the imagination. But nonetheless, this 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:19.520 is a robbery that you had nothing to do with. 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.240 You had alibis, there was no physical evidence connecting you 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:25.800 to it. And first of all, set the table for 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:27.840 us here. How old were you at the time, what 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.880 were you doing, and how was your life. 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.680 I was twenty four years old at the time. 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:38.160 I was working for a government funded program. 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:40.359 It was a letterbatement program. 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:42.519 I happened to be one of the people who were 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:44.560 educated in the field very early on. 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.360 So you were helping to get lead out of housing. 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:53.720 Housing and I got a biochemical certificate from ODU in 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.080 this field, and at the time of my arrest, I 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:58.440 was actually writing a proposal to hud Homes for like 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.680 five million dollars to kind of extend our licenses to 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.680 other states and kind of setting myself up for. 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:06.880 My career in this field. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.600 And then of course this happened and it kind of 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:15.200 just obliviated everything that I had planned for my life. 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.679 I'm sitting here with you now. We had dinner last night. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.280 Here you are in a blue suit, you know, with 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.240 a tie and looking the part of somebody who would 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.400 be doing exactly what you described like doing actually very 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:30.000 good work helping people. And you know, if people want 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.280 to go to my Instagram, it's at it's Jason Fomm 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:34.880 you'll see pictures that I posted with Messiah and you'll 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.680 see what I mean. You know, you look like an 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.280 upstanding citizen like anybody else. And yet if you've been 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.360 through this unbelievable or deal twenty years in prison. It's 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.800 so strange because aside from the fact that there was 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:52.560 no evidence taking physical appearances aside, you just wouldn't seem 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:57.480 to fit any sort of profile of somebody that would 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.880 commit an arm robbery when you've got this whole other life. 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.480 I mean, that's not a thing. It's just not a thing. 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:05.040 But okay, let's go back to it. 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:10.280 So this robbery takes place, yes, and they're out obviously 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.160 looking for suspects. And how did it end up that 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:15.760 you even got on the radar. 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.520 That's a good question, because I didn't really understand it 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.400 until I actually went to trial in August the following year. 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:24.919 I try to take you back to the day I 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:28.359 was arrested on the nineteenth of December. It really was 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.600 a typical day in the life of any young man 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:33.159 my age from where I'm from. A couple of friends 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:35.520 hanging out. It was on a Friday, early in the day. 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:38.720 I had you made arrangements to see a friend of mine, 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:40.960 a lady friend of mine, later on in the night. 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.120 But prior to that, another friend of mine, he and 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:47.680 I decided to go up to shoot pool conversed with 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.440 some other friends, and we were doing that and it 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:52.800 kind of got to the time where I was about 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.000 to go to see this lady friend, and so I 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:55.880 made a phone call. 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:57.800 While I was in the club. It was a little 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.120 bit too noisy. She couldn't hear me. 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.120 So I said, look, I'm gonna step outside across the 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:02.960 street and make this phone call so you can hear me, 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:04.279 you know, just to let her know I was on 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:06.839 my way. And then he and I were gonna part ways. 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:09.640 And so as I was walking out of the club, 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.160 it was several officers coming in and the phone booth 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:14.400 was directly across the street. 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.000 We walked across the street. I didn't see any. 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.760 Cops, so they must have been hiding around the building 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.880 and the dark or something like that, because, you know, 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.240 as soon as I picked up the phone, you know, 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:26.640 everything about my life kind of changed in an instance, 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.359 because all I could hear was screeching tires, flashing lights 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.880 and sirens, and in that moment. 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.279 It was difficult the process was what was happening. 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:38.640 But from behind the lights, you know, before my eyes 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:40.880 really had a chance to adjust, you could really hear 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.240 the demands of put your hands up, and so you 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.920 don't really have time to process that. So I just complied, 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.280 not really knowing what was going on, and I did 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.560 so because you know, once my eyes were able to adjudge. 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.119 It was three or four guns in my face. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.760 I remained calm because I didn't want to do anything 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.000 that would cause me to be possibly shit anything like that. 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:03.880 And so we were asked to put our hands up, 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.760 which we did, and we were placed in handcuffs, this friend, 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.000 me and one other friend. And you know, I didn't 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.320 realize at the time, only after studying the law that 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.000 this is where the miscourage of justice began to make 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:20.520 manifest against me, because I was sat down on the 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:24.280 curve with handcuffs on, in between two police cars and 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.640 the Neil versus bigg As. If you understand you know 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.080 the citation law, it tells you that any person that 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.279 is singly displayed in handcuffs is presumed to be the 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.279 person who did the crime of when you're doing a 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.839 show up. And so we finally got a chance to 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:40.359 look at the case later on and realized that the 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.159 person who initially I didn't know he was with the 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:43.640 officers as we were leaving out. 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:43.960 Of the club. 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:48.240 He was with them. Oh, and so once they put 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.359 us in handcuffs, he told the police that, you know, well, 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:53.240 one of the other victims that I work with is 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.919 at his shop and so instead of the police just 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.080 going back to get him to do a show up, 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.440 he actually took the person who initially identified me back 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:04.880 there with him and allowed them to ride in the 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.400 car together. As they were riding in the car together, 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:10.520 it's easy for him to say that he is right there, right, so. 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:12.960 They could share the information set already seen you, Yeah, 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:14.960 and we've seen this time and again. Of course, that's 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:20.360 going to increase exponentially the percentage of people who are 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.680 going to identify that suspect. We know from research, even 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:27.080 when somebody sees a person in the defendant's box, just 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.040 a normal person off the street who's now adjure that 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.280 eighty percent of people have a natural proclivity to think 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.080 that that person must be guilty, because otherwise what would they. 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:36.640 Be doing there. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.000 But then when you take that, and then you add 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.360 to it someone who's been a victim and a person 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.400 in handcuffs on the street with the police, it's almost 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:48.880 like a fata complete Like it would be strange for 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.120 them not to identify you. They would have to be like, 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.240 I don't know, it have to be something bizarrely, you'd 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:57.400 have to be the wrong race or something. Anyway, there's 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:58.680 a lot of factors that go to that. 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:00.280 So it at this. 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:03.520 Point did you realize how dire the situation was or 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:05.400 did you feel like they just made a mistake and 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:07.840 I'm going to go home after this gets sorted out. 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:08.080 No. 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.080 Prior to the show up, you know, there was a 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.200 moment where one of the officers, I was like, yeah, 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:14.920 I'm a little confused, officer, what is this about? And 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.840 he was cordial, Well, you're a suspect and of crime. 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.760 What crime could that have been? We've been here the 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.440 majority of the night, the day and night, so what 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.280 are you talking about? And he was like, well, I 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.200 let the detectives share that with you when you go downtown. 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.760 So it was already they had already made a decision. 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.000 It was a predetermined idea that I was going downtown regardless, 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:36.960 you know, even prior to the show up. At least 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:38.320 that's what it seemed like to me. 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:40.800 So now they take you downtown, and they brought your friends. 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.040 What was your friend's name? His name was Mondelle, And 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.680 so you and Mondel both got taken downtown. We did 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:47.800 interrogate it separately as soon, of. 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:50.640 Course, you know it's the whole you know, we're going 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.400 to put him in this very cold cell. And those 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:56.280 of us who have been locked up, you always know, 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:58.839 you always put in a very ice cold cell and 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:01.280 it's so cold that you're in the fetal position just. 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:01.920 To keep warm. 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.640 And so I've studied a lot of cases, and I 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.520 can always see why people really just want to just 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.640 get away from the police station and they just kind 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.600 of just say, you know, I did it just to 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.280 get away from the circumstances because of the process. It's 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.160 very harsh on a person when you're in that very 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:20.960 cold sale and then they bring you out and. 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.480 They held you in this freezing cell for how long? 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:25.240 A few hours? 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.680 Wow? Then you're going to be interrogated. Yes, but you 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:29.559 never confessed. 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.400 I didn't have any knowledge of what they were talking about. 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:33.800 Right, But we know that a lot of people do 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:35.840 confess in those circumstances, as you just said, just to 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:36.640 go home, even if. 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:38.840 They don't know what they're talking about. Yes, yes, but 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:39.760 you did not know. 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.360 They bought me out after that and began the good cop, 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.400 bad cop thing. And the first thing I said was, look, 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:48.520 before you ask me any questions, I want to make 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.680 a phone call to an attorney. A practitioner of Islam 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:54.480 and a righteous and I'm civilized. So whatever you accuse 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.319 me of, you know you have the wrong person. I 0:09:57.360 --> 0:09:59.840 don't know anything about a robbery or any other crime, 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.200 and so I didn't know it was dire until, you know, 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.120 he got very upset. I think the fact that he 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.280 automatically thought I was a Muslim. He began to talk 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.840 about being a Muslim to me, and that's not what 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:14.800 I am. I was a practice of Islam. My culture 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:16.600 is a five percent nation of gods and earths. And 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:19.800 I didn't really want to get into a dialogue with 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.800 him about that. But then he said, well, you don't 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:24.400 have to talk to me. You're gonna end up with 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:28.920 fifty felonies. And then that's when it kind of began 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:30.280 to that tense stuff. 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.720 I was, you know, concerned. Then I said, what do 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:34.120 you mean. 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.320 He said, yeah, we're gonna be typing up about fifty 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.520 felonies against you. And in the state of Virginia, that's 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.240 one of the states that can stack charges. So for 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.920 every individual robbery, I got an abduction charge, a firearm 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:51.080 for deduction, and a firearm for the robbery. So I 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.240 ended up with forty three felonies. Most of them current 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:55.559 life sentences. 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.320 Based on the one crime that they suspected you of 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:03.640 doing exactly. I don't even know what to say about 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.480 that I turned one of the forty three. That math 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:08.160 is just as fuzzy as. 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.680 It could be. So how long were you interrogated for? 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.560 You know, the records show that I was brought out 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.400 to be interrogated and not said that I didn't know anything, 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.520 and then I was taken right back to my cell, 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.360 which is not the truth. You know, you would have 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.640 to look at the time frame. You know, from the 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.360 time I was down at the police operation Center until 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.800 the time I was actually taken to the jail, which 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.560 was about seven to eight hours, and so I was 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.560 taken out of that cell on three different occasions to 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:35.680 the interrogation room. 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:36.920 Did you get your phone call? 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:38.480 I never got the phone call. 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.240 And actually, if you look at my pre trial records, 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.000 it will tell you that Messiah requests a phone call 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:46.000 and we tell him a phone call is not one 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:47.840 of his rights. But he left out the fact that 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.400 I requested a phone call to talk to an attorney. 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.840 So I'm guessing that you probably should have said I 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.800 want an attorney and then they stop questioning you. Right, 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:58.400 if you say I want to call an attorney, that's 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.760 not the same saying I want an attorney present. 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.040 They did stop questioning me, and once I requested that, 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.840 they stopped questioning me and took me back to the 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:07.840 cell of the final time. 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.840 And then you were held for almost a year before 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:11.800 your trial, Is that right? 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.120 Just about nine months exactly. And I went to my 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:16.480 first trial in August. 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.079 And tell me about that. Because you didn't have a 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:20.720 quarter pointed attorney. 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.640 I did initially, which was the foundation of the injustice. 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.600 Once I got into the courtroom, I had an attorney 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.559 by the name of Andrew Sebbak. And during preliminary hearing 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.320 in the cells, it's verly packed. Everybody's waiting to go 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.600 for their hearing, and so several lawyers are coming talking. 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.240 He comes in to speak to me, and you know, 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.720 the first thing he says was, my name is Andrew Sabbak, 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.680 so forth and so on. He said, now, look, what 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.679 can you tell me about this crime, which was perplexing 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:49.400 to me. And I was like, look, I don't know 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:51.599 anything about this crime. I'm not guilty of it, but 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:53.160 I want to make sure that when you go in here, 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.000 you separate the witnesses and you, you know, make sure 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:57.439 that they understand that I have anything to. 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:57.640 Do with this. 0:12:57.880 --> 0:12:58.320 Okay. 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:00.160 He leaves, comes back. 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.840 And it's as if he didn't hear anything I said. 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.160 You know again, he was asking me. He said, well, 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.520 when you and your friend committed this crime, and then 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.760 my antennas went up immediately, what are you talking about? 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:12.040 I just told you I didn't have anything to do 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:16.000 with this crime. And so this man actually went into 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.040 this courtroom without a stenographer, which was one of my 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.560 first requests because I figured that something was wrong. And 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.040 when I walked into the courtroom, there was no sonographer. 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.319 So my initial reaction to him was where's the sonographer? 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:30.640 This guy told me, well, it's too late to get 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.640 one now we're already in here. And so I was frustrated, 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.880 and I was speaking kind of loud, and the deputy 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:38.559 was saying, look, you have. 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:39.079 To keep it down. 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.600 We're about to courts givery be in sessions. So I said, okay. 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.800 He separated the witnesses. These witnesses described two different people. 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.240 One said this guy had on camouflage from head to toe. 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.840 Once said he had on a blue jacket. It was 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.280 the kind of evidence that you simply just get up 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:56.480 and say you're on are based on the evidence, asked 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:58.520 for the charge to be dismissed. But at the end 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:03.160 of everything, you know, simply said that's all I have, Yanna. 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:05.679 The courtroom was dumbfounded. 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:07.920 The judge had to look over top of his glass 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.640 and say that's it. And he said, oh, other than 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:11.920 the fact that we asked for a bond. 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.959 Obviously, now you're extremely knowledgeable about the law, but at 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:17.520 the time you weren't. 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:18.880 I'm assuming right. 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:21.080 No, I wasn't knowledgeable the law. But you know, when 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:21.800 you're being wrong? 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.560 What was your reaction? Did you like elbow im like yo? 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.360 I actually did, And the deputy had to step in 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:29.640 again and say, look, you have to relax, like I'm 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:31.200 saying to him, what are you doing? 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:31.440 Man? 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:32.400 What happened? 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.040 And so I didn't want to put up a fuss 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.280 in the courtroom. I knew that the judge knew that 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:39.640 something was wrong, but I made a phone call to 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.280 him when I got back to the jail. 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:42.960 We got on the phone, I said, look, what did 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:44.200 you do to me in courtroom today? Man? 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.440 You didn't have a sonographer? I said, are you working 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.160 with the Commonwealth or something, and you know, he said, 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:51.400 there's other people that feel like you may have committed 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:53.720 this crime. And so my suggestion to you is you 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.040 don't want me on your case, I would suggest you 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.000 get me off. And that basically told me that he 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.720 was somehow working and with the police department or the 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:05.880 Commonwealth attorney. And we found out years later that he 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.800 was actually this barred because he was dealing with a 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:09.720 mental deficiency. 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:11.240 Wow. 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.040 And so when I went to court to get him 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.280 off for my case, the judge gave me a five 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.880 minute speeches in the transcripts about how this is a 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.160 good attorney, and I said, you're honest. He told me 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.760 he was working with the Commonwealth in so many words, 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.520 and then he asked the attorney like, do you what 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.280 do you say to this man who's accusing you of 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:29.880 working with the comonwealth. He said, well, am I getting 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:31.520 a check from the Commonwealth, And the judge that that's 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:33.440 not what I'm asking you. He actually speak to him 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.040 and his chambers and removed them offrom my case. It 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:37.600 was then that I hired an attorney. 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.360 But at this point this was still part of the 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:42.280 initial phase, or had you already been convicted. 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.400 No, this was preliminary hearing. 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:44.960 So okay. 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:50.040 So now we're dealing with an attorney who is mentally impaired. Yes, 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.280 doesn't have a stenographer in the courtroom, which alone should 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.880 be impossible. I mean, that can't happen. And then you 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.520 have a judge who's looking over his glasses at him 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.640 and going on really, dude, like really, And then they 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:07.160 have been working with the commonwealth against your best interest. 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:11.080 And above all, you had an attorney who is coming 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.000 to you ignoring everything you're saying time and time again, 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.040 and going tell me how about how you robbed this 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:17.600 place and who'd you do it with and all this 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.200 other stuff. And you had to be looking forward to 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.640 having your day in court and having an attorney who's 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:24.360 got your back, who's going to go up there and 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.160 tell the truth and make this go away. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:27.960 You know. 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.160 My family and now decided that we didn't have a 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.200 lot of money. We decided that we would get an attorney. 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.960 We considered a seasoned attorney who had a name for 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.440 himself and who had been, you know, practicing. 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:38.920 Law for some time. 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:39.880 And then what happened. 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:44.360 We went into court on August nineteenth, nineteen ninety eight, Now, initially, 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.880 before we even went in, several people who were victims said, look, 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.200 I can't identify anybody. These guys had on a mask, 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.560 they were covered up completely. There's no way I can 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.040 come in here and identify anybody. And so for every 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:01.640 person that came in and it said that those charges 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.680 were dropped. And then we went through the trial and 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:06.919 one of the things that he asked when one of 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.880 the witnesses got on stand was did you see any photographs? 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.119 And the witnesses said yes. The detective came by my 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.919 place of residence and showed me some photographs. He said, well, 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:18.000 how many food residents you see? He said, well, she said, 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.119 I saw a book of about sixty photographs where I 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.199 picked out a person that I thought may have been 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.760 the person. And then my lawyer immediately asked for a 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.720 mistrial because we hadn't seen any photographs, and the Commonwealth 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.240 claimed she didn't know anything about it, and so the 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.280 next day the mistrial was granted. And I really didn't 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:36.080 want the mistrial. I wanted to go through with this 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.159 trial because I felt like I had a jury of 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.600 my peers. And what I mean by that is that 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:45.359 the majority of the jury was black, which is unusual, 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.480 you know, and of a certain age, closer to my age. 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.280