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Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject

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Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.

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Speaker 2: Impact ere and it hasn't been easy.

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Speaker 3: One hundred years. That's man.

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Speaker 4: I'm a kid.

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Speaker 1: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know

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Speaker 1: that was Ah, that was real painful, man, No, because

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Speaker 1: my life was discarded as if you know, like I

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Speaker 1: was a piece of trash or something, you know, one

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Speaker 1: hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: do things I wouldn't.

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Speaker 3: Commit in crimes. You know.

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Speaker 1: I was a very good young man.

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Speaker 5: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops

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Speaker 5: have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene,

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Speaker 5: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,

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Speaker 5: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off

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Speaker 5: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so

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Speaker 5: many of these wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 6: They open it to cell door and I'll walk downstairs.

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Speaker 2: And I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt

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Speaker 2: very strange to be, like I said, to be walking

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Speaker 2: without those shackles on my feet. I thought it was

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Speaker 2: a dream. But then again it wasn't a dream.

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Speaker 7: This is wrong for conviction. Welcome back to wrong for conviction.

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Speaker 7: My guest this week is Messiah Johnson. And Messiah, first

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Speaker 7: of all, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure being here.

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Speaker 3: So Messiah, this case and let's go back. It's a

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Speaker 3: Virginia case.

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Speaker 4: It is.

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Speaker 3: You came from Norfolk.

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Speaker 7: Yes, and this goes back to late nineties, right, Yes,

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Speaker 7: it goes back.

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Speaker 6: To December nineteenth, nineteen ninety seven. The crime actually happened

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Speaker 6: on December fifth, nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 4: The nineteenth was the day of my rest.

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Speaker 7: This was an arm robbery of a hair salon in

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Speaker 7: Norfolk in which nobody was hurt. That doesn't make it right,

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Speaker 7: Don't get me wrong. I'm not in favor of armed

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Speaker 7: robberies by any stretch of the imagination. But nonetheless, this

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Speaker 7: is a robbery that you had nothing to do with.

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Speaker 7: You had alibis, there was no physical evidence connecting you

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Speaker 7: to it. And first of all, set the table for

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Speaker 7: us here. How old were you at the time, what

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Speaker 7: were you doing, and how was your life.

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Speaker 4: I was twenty four years old at the time.

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Speaker 6: I was working for a government funded program.

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Speaker 4: It was a letterbatement program.

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Speaker 6: I happened to be one of the people who were

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Speaker 6: educated in the field very early on.

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Speaker 3: So you were helping to get lead out of housing.

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Speaker 6: Housing and I got a biochemical certificate from ODU in

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Speaker 6: this field, and at the time of my arrest, I

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Speaker 6: was actually writing a proposal to hud Homes for like

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Speaker 6: five million dollars to kind of extend our licenses to

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Speaker 6: other states and kind of setting myself up for.

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Speaker 4: My career in this field.

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Speaker 6: And then of course this happened and it kind of

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Speaker 6: just obliviated everything that I had planned for my life.

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Speaker 3: I'm sitting here with you now. We had dinner last night.

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Speaker 7: Here you are in a blue suit, you know, with

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Speaker 7: a tie and looking the part of somebody who would

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Speaker 7: be doing exactly what you described like doing actually very

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Speaker 7: good work helping people. And you know, if people want

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Speaker 7: to go to my Instagram, it's at it's Jason Fomm

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Speaker 7: you'll see pictures that I posted with Messiah and you'll

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Speaker 7: see what I mean. You know, you look like an

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Speaker 7: upstanding citizen like anybody else. And yet if you've been

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Speaker 7: through this unbelievable or deal twenty years in prison. It's

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Speaker 7: so strange because aside from the fact that there was

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Speaker 7: no evidence taking physical appearances aside, you just wouldn't seem

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Speaker 7: to fit any sort of profile of somebody that would

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Speaker 7: commit an arm robbery when you've got this whole other life.

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Speaker 7: I mean, that's not a thing. It's just not a thing.

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Speaker 3: But okay, let's go back to it.

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Speaker 7: So this robbery takes place, yes, and they're out obviously

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Speaker 7: looking for suspects. And how did it end up that

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Speaker 7: you even got on the radar.

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Speaker 6: That's a good question, because I didn't really understand it

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Speaker 6: until I actually went to trial in August the following year.

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Speaker 6: I try to take you back to the day I

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Speaker 6: was arrested on the nineteenth of December. It really was

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Speaker 6: a typical day in the life of any young man

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Speaker 6: my age from where I'm from. A couple of friends

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Speaker 6: hanging out. It was on a Friday, early in the day.

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Speaker 6: I had you made arrangements to see a friend of mine,

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Speaker 6: a lady friend of mine, later on in the night.

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Speaker 6: But prior to that, another friend of mine, he and

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Speaker 6: I decided to go up to shoot pool conversed with

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Speaker 6: some other friends, and we were doing that and it

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Speaker 6: kind of got to the time where I was about

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Speaker 6: to go to see this lady friend, and so I

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Speaker 6: made a phone call.

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Speaker 4: While I was in the club. It was a little

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Speaker 4: bit too noisy. She couldn't hear me.

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Speaker 6: So I said, look, I'm gonna step outside across the

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Speaker 6: street and make this phone call so you can hear me,

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Speaker 6: you know, just to let her know I was on

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Speaker 6: my way. And then he and I were gonna part ways.

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Speaker 6: And so as I was walking out of the club,

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Speaker 6: it was several officers coming in and the phone booth

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Speaker 6: was directly across the street.

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Speaker 4: We walked across the street. I didn't see any.

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Speaker 6: Cops, so they must have been hiding around the building

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Speaker 6: and the dark or something like that, because, you know,

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Speaker 6: as soon as I picked up the phone, you know,

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Speaker 6: everything about my life kind of changed in an instance,

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Speaker 6: because all I could hear was screeching tires, flashing lights

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Speaker 6: and sirens, and in that moment.

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Speaker 4: It was difficult the process was what was happening.

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Speaker 6: But from behind the lights, you know, before my eyes

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Speaker 6: really had a chance to adjust, you could really hear

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Speaker 6: the demands of put your hands up, and so you

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Speaker 6: don't really have time to process that. So I just complied,

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Speaker 6: not really knowing what was going on, and I did

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Speaker 6: so because you know, once my eyes were able to adjudge.

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Speaker 4: It was three or four guns in my face.

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Speaker 6: I remained calm because I didn't want to do anything

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Speaker 6: that would cause me to be possibly shit anything like that.

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Speaker 6: And so we were asked to put our hands up,

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Speaker 6: which we did, and we were placed in handcuffs, this friend,

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Speaker 6: me and one other friend. And you know, I didn't

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Speaker 6: realize at the time, only after studying the law that

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Speaker 6: this is where the miscourage of justice began to make

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Speaker 6: manifest against me, because I was sat down on the

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Speaker 6: curve with handcuffs on, in between two police cars and

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Speaker 6: the Neil versus bigg As. If you understand you know

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Speaker 6: the citation law, it tells you that any person that

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Speaker 6: is singly displayed in handcuffs is presumed to be the

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Speaker 6: person who did the crime of when you're doing a

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Speaker 6: show up. And so we finally got a chance to

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Speaker 6: look at the case later on and realized that the

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Speaker 6: person who initially I didn't know he was with the

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Speaker 6: officers as we were leaving out.

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Speaker 3: Of the club.

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Speaker 6: He was with them. Oh, and so once they put

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Speaker 6: us in handcuffs, he told the police that, you know, well,

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Speaker 6: one of the other victims that I work with is

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Speaker 6: at his shop and so instead of the police just

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Speaker 6: going back to get him to do a show up,

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Speaker 6: he actually took the person who initially identified me back

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Speaker 6: there with him and allowed them to ride in the

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Speaker 6: car together. As they were riding in the car together,

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Speaker 6: it's easy for him to say that he is right there, right, so.

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Speaker 7: They could share the information set already seen you, Yeah,

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Speaker 7: and we've seen this time and again. Of course, that's

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Speaker 7: going to increase exponentially the percentage of people who are

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Speaker 7: going to identify that suspect. We know from research, even

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Speaker 7: when somebody sees a person in the defendant's box, just

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Speaker 7: a normal person off the street who's now adjure that

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Speaker 7: eighty percent of people have a natural proclivity to think

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Speaker 7: that that person must be guilty, because otherwise what would they.

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Speaker 3: Be doing there.

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Speaker 7: But then when you take that, and then you add

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Speaker 7: to it someone who's been a victim and a person

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Speaker 7: in handcuffs on the street with the police, it's almost

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Speaker 7: like a fata complete Like it would be strange for

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Speaker 7: them not to identify you. They would have to be like,

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Speaker 7: I don't know, it have to be something bizarrely, you'd

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Speaker 7: have to be the wrong race or something. Anyway, there's

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Speaker 7: a lot of factors that go to that.

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Speaker 3: So it at this.

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Speaker 7: Point did you realize how dire the situation was or

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Speaker 7: did you feel like they just made a mistake and

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Speaker 7: I'm going to go home after this gets sorted out.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 6: Prior to the show up, you know, there was a

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Speaker 6: moment where one of the officers, I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 6: I'm a little confused, officer, what is this about? And

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Speaker 6: he was cordial, Well, you're a suspect and of crime.

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Speaker 6: What crime could that have been? We've been here the

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Speaker 6: majority of the night, the day and night, so what

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Speaker 6: are you talking about? And he was like, well, I

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Speaker 6: let the detectives share that with you when you go downtown.

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Speaker 6: So it was already they had already made a decision.

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Speaker 6: It was a predetermined idea that I was going downtown regardless,

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Speaker 6: you know, even prior to the show up. At least

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Speaker 6: that's what it seemed like to me.

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Speaker 7: So now they take you downtown, and they brought your friends.

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Speaker 7: What was your friend's name? His name was Mondelle, And

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Speaker 7: so you and Mondel both got taken downtown. We did

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Speaker 7: interrogate it separately as soon, of.

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Speaker 6: Course, you know it's the whole you know, we're going

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Speaker 6: to put him in this very cold cell. And those

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Speaker 6: of us who have been locked up, you always know,

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Speaker 6: you always put in a very ice cold cell and

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Speaker 6: it's so cold that you're in the fetal position just.

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Speaker 4: To keep warm.

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Speaker 6: And so I've studied a lot of cases, and I

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Speaker 6: can always see why people really just want to just

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Speaker 6: get away from the police station and they just kind

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Speaker 6: of just say, you know, I did it just to

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Speaker 6: get away from the circumstances because of the process. It's

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Speaker 6: very harsh on a person when you're in that very

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Speaker 6: cold sale and then they bring you out and.

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Speaker 3: They held you in this freezing cell for how long?

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Speaker 4: A few hours?

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Speaker 3: Wow? Then you're going to be interrogated. Yes, but you

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Speaker 3: never confessed.

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Speaker 4: I didn't have any knowledge of what they were talking about.

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Speaker 7: Right, But we know that a lot of people do

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Speaker 7: confess in those circumstances, as you just said, just to

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Speaker 7: go home, even if.

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Speaker 3: They don't know what they're talking about. Yes, yes, but

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Speaker 3: you did not know.

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Speaker 6: They bought me out after that and began the good cop,

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Speaker 6: bad cop thing. And the first thing I said was, look,

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Speaker 6: before you ask me any questions, I want to make

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Speaker 6: a phone call to an attorney. A practitioner of Islam

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Speaker 6: and a righteous and I'm civilized. So whatever you accuse

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Speaker 6: me of, you know you have the wrong person. I

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Speaker 6: don't know anything about a robbery or any other crime,

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Speaker 6: and so I didn't know it was dire until, you know,

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Speaker 6: he got very upset. I think the fact that he

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Speaker 6: automatically thought I was a Muslim. He began to talk

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Speaker 6: about being a Muslim to me, and that's not what

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Speaker 6: I am. I was a practice of Islam. My culture

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Speaker 6: is a five percent nation of gods and earths. And

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Speaker 6: I didn't really want to get into a dialogue with

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Speaker 6: him about that. But then he said, well, you don't

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Speaker 6: have to talk to me. You're gonna end up with

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Speaker 6: fifty felonies. And then that's when it kind of began

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Speaker 6: to that tense stuff.

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Speaker 4: I was, you know, concerned. Then I said, what do

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Speaker 4: you mean.

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Speaker 6: He said, yeah, we're gonna be typing up about fifty

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Speaker 6: felonies against you. And in the state of Virginia, that's

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Speaker 6: one of the states that can stack charges. So for

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Speaker 6: every individual robbery, I got an abduction charge, a firearm

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Speaker 6: for deduction, and a firearm for the robbery. So I

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Speaker 6: ended up with forty three felonies. Most of them current

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Speaker 6: life sentences.

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Speaker 7: Based on the one crime that they suspected you of

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Speaker 7: doing exactly. I don't even know what to say about

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Speaker 7: that I turned one of the forty three. That math

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Speaker 7: is just as fuzzy as.

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Speaker 3: It could be. So how long were you interrogated for?

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Speaker 6: You know, the records show that I was brought out

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Speaker 6: to be interrogated and not said that I didn't know anything,

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Speaker 6: and then I was taken right back to my cell,

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Speaker 6: which is not the truth. You know, you would have

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Speaker 6: to look at the time frame. You know, from the

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Speaker 6: time I was down at the police operation Center until

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Speaker 6: the time I was actually taken to the jail, which

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Speaker 6: was about seven to eight hours, and so I was

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Speaker 6: taken out of that cell on three different occasions to

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Speaker 6: the interrogation room.

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Speaker 3: Did you get your phone call?

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Speaker 4: I never got the phone call.

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Speaker 6: And actually, if you look at my pre trial records,

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Speaker 6: it will tell you that Messiah requests a phone call

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Speaker 6: and we tell him a phone call is not one

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Speaker 6: of his rights. But he left out the fact that

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Speaker 6: I requested a phone call to talk to an attorney.

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Speaker 7: So I'm guessing that you probably should have said I

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Speaker 7: want an attorney and then they stop questioning you. Right,

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Speaker 7: if you say I want to call an attorney, that's

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Speaker 7: not the same saying I want an attorney present.

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Speaker 6: They did stop questioning me, and once I requested that,

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Speaker 6: they stopped questioning me and took me back to the

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Speaker 6: cell of the final time.

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Speaker 3: And then you were held for almost a year before

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Speaker 3: your trial, Is that right?

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Speaker 6: Just about nine months exactly. And I went to my

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Speaker 6: first trial in August.

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Speaker 7: And tell me about that. Because you didn't have a

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Speaker 7: quarter pointed attorney.

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Speaker 6: I did initially, which was the foundation of the injustice.

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Speaker 6: Once I got into the courtroom, I had an attorney

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Speaker 6: by the name of Andrew Sebbak. And during preliminary hearing

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Speaker 6: in the cells, it's verly packed. Everybody's waiting to go

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Speaker 6: for their hearing, and so several lawyers are coming talking.

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Speaker 6: He comes in to speak to me, and you know,

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Speaker 6: the first thing he says was, my name is Andrew Sabbak,

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Speaker 6: so forth and so on. He said, now, look, what

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Speaker 6: can you tell me about this crime, which was perplexing

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Speaker 6: to me. And I was like, look, I don't know

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Speaker 6: anything about this crime. I'm not guilty of it, but

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Speaker 6: I want to make sure that when you go in here,

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Speaker 6: you separate the witnesses and you, you know, make sure

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Speaker 6: that they understand that I have anything to.

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Speaker 4: Do with this.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: He leaves, comes back.

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Speaker 6: And it's as if he didn't hear anything I said.

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Speaker 6: You know again, he was asking me. He said, well,

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Speaker 6: when you and your friend committed this crime, and then

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Speaker 6: my antennas went up immediately, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 6: I just told you I didn't have anything to do

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Speaker 6: with this crime. And so this man actually went into

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Speaker 6: this courtroom without a stenographer, which was one of my

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Speaker 6: first requests because I figured that something was wrong. And

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Speaker 6: when I walked into the courtroom, there was no sonographer.

295
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Speaker 6: So my initial reaction to him was where's the sonographer?

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Speaker 6: This guy told me, well, it's too late to get

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Speaker 6: one now we're already in here. And so I was frustrated,

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Speaker 6: and I was speaking kind of loud, and the deputy

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Speaker 6: was saying, look, you have.

300
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Speaker 4: To keep it down.

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Speaker 6: We're about to courts givery be in sessions. So I said, okay.

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Speaker 6: He separated the witnesses. These witnesses described two different people.

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Speaker 6: One said this guy had on camouflage from head to toe.

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Speaker 6: Once said he had on a blue jacket. It was

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Speaker 6: the kind of evidence that you simply just get up

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Speaker 6: and say you're on are based on the evidence, asked

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Speaker 6: for the charge to be dismissed. But at the end

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Speaker 6: of everything, you know, simply said that's all I have, Yanna.

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Speaker 4: The courtroom was dumbfounded.

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Speaker 6: The judge had to look over top of his glass

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Speaker 6: and say that's it. And he said, oh, other than

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Speaker 6: the fact that we asked for a bond.

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Speaker 7: Obviously, now you're extremely knowledgeable about the law, but at

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Speaker 7: the time you weren't.

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Speaker 3: I'm assuming right.

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Speaker 4: No, I wasn't knowledgeable the law. But you know, when

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Speaker 4: you're being wrong?

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Speaker 3: What was your reaction? Did you like elbow im like yo?

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Speaker 6: I actually did, And the deputy had to step in

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Speaker 6: again and say, look, you have to relax, like I'm

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Speaker 6: saying to him, what are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Man?

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Speaker 4: What happened?

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Speaker 6: And so I didn't want to put up a fuss

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Speaker 6: in the courtroom. I knew that the judge knew that

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Speaker 6: something was wrong, but I made a phone call to

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Speaker 6: him when I got back to the jail.

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Speaker 4: We got on the phone, I said, look, what did

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Speaker 4: you do to me in courtroom today? Man?

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Speaker 6: You didn't have a sonographer? I said, are you working

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Speaker 6: with the Commonwealth or something, and you know, he said,

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Speaker 6: there's other people that feel like you may have committed

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Speaker 6: this crime. And so my suggestion to you is you

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Speaker 6: don't want me on your case, I would suggest you

335
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Speaker 6: get me off. And that basically told me that he

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Speaker 6: was somehow working and with the police department or the

337
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Speaker 6: Commonwealth attorney. And we found out years later that he

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Speaker 6: was actually this barred because he was dealing with a

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Speaker 6: mental deficiency.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 6: And so when I went to court to get him

342
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Speaker 6: off for my case, the judge gave me a five

343
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Speaker 6: minute speeches in the transcripts about how this is a

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Speaker 6: good attorney, and I said, you're honest. He told me

345
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Speaker 6: he was working with the Commonwealth in so many words,

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Speaker 6: and then he asked the attorney like, do you what

347
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Speaker 6: do you say to this man who's accusing you of

348
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Speaker 6: working with the comonwealth. He said, well, am I getting

349
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Speaker 6: a check from the Commonwealth, And the judge that that's

350
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Speaker 6: not what I'm asking you. He actually speak to him

351
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Speaker 6: and his chambers and removed them offrom my case. It

352
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Speaker 6: was then that I hired an attorney.

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Speaker 7: But at this point this was still part of the

354
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Speaker 7: initial phase, or had you already been convicted.

355
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Speaker 4: No, this was preliminary hearing.

356
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Speaker 3: So okay.

357
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Speaker 7: So now we're dealing with an attorney who is mentally impaired. Yes,

358
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,280
Speaker 7: doesn't have a stenographer in the courtroom, which alone should

359
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,880
Speaker 7: be impossible. I mean, that can't happen. And then you

360
00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 7: have a judge who's looking over his glasses at him

361
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,640
Speaker 7: and going on really, dude, like really, And then they

362
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,160
Speaker 7: have been working with the commonwealth against your best interest.

363
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Speaker 7: And above all, you had an attorney who is coming

364
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Speaker 7: to you ignoring everything you're saying time and time again,

365
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Speaker 7: and going tell me how about how you robbed this

366
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Speaker 7: place and who'd you do it with and all this

367
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,200
Speaker 7: other stuff. And you had to be looking forward to

368
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 7: having your day in court and having an attorney who's

369
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,360
Speaker 7: got your back, who's going to go up there and

370
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,160
Speaker 7: tell the truth and make this go away.

371
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Speaker 4: You know.

372
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Speaker 6: My family and now decided that we didn't have a

373
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Speaker 6: lot of money. We decided that we would get an attorney.

374
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Speaker 6: We considered a seasoned attorney who had a name for

375
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Speaker 6: himself and who had been, you know, practicing.

376
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Speaker 4: Law for some time.

377
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Speaker 3: And then what happened.

378
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Speaker 6: We went into court on August nineteenth, nineteen ninety eight, Now, initially,

379
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,880
Speaker 6: before we even went in, several people who were victims said, look,

380
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,200
Speaker 6: I can't identify anybody. These guys had on a mask,

381
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,560
Speaker 6: they were covered up completely. There's no way I can

382
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Speaker 6: come in here and identify anybody. And so for every

383
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Speaker 6: person that came in and it said that those charges

384
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Speaker 6: were dropped. And then we went through the trial and

385
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,919
Speaker 6: one of the things that he asked when one of

386
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,880
Speaker 6: the witnesses got on stand was did you see any photographs?

387
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,119
Speaker 6: And the witnesses said yes. The detective came by my

388
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,919
Speaker 6: place of residence and showed me some photographs. He said, well,

389
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Speaker 6: how many food residents you see? He said, well, she said,

390
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,119
Speaker 6: I saw a book of about sixty photographs where I

391
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,199
Speaker 6: picked out a person that I thought may have been

392
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Speaker 6: the person. And then my lawyer immediately asked for a

393
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 6: mistrial because we hadn't seen any photographs, and the Commonwealth

394
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,240
Speaker 6: claimed she didn't know anything about it, and so the

395
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,280
Speaker 6: next day the mistrial was granted. And I really didn't

396
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,080
Speaker 6: want the mistrial. I wanted to go through with this

397
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,159
Speaker 6: trial because I felt like I had a jury of

398
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 6: my peers. And what I mean by that is that

399
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,359
Speaker 6: the majority of the jury was black, which is unusual,

400
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,480
Speaker 6: you know, and of a certain age, closer to my age.

401
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,280
Speaker 6: And while I was sitting in the cellar loane, my

402
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,840
Speaker 6: lawyer came back and said, look, they're offering you a

403
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,439
Speaker 6: plea deal. I said, well, why are you bringing it

404
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,000
Speaker 6: to me? I'm innocent. There's no way I'm taking a

405
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:01,440
Speaker 6: plea deal.

406
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:02,680
Speaker 3: What was the play?

407
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:04,080
Speaker 4: Three years?

408
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,119
Speaker 3: Three years? You know.

409
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,920
Speaker 6: Once I didn't take that plea deal, this became about

410
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,360
Speaker 6: malicious prosecution, and she knew it was really no evidence,

411
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,840
Speaker 6: you know, reliable evidence, which we found out later on.

412
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,119
Speaker 6: I'm locked up because I wear glasses.

413
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,560
Speaker 3: Because of the one of the robbers had glasses on.

414
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,840
Speaker 7: That's it, yeah, because I mean, how can you possibly

415
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 7: have my witness identification when you mean it's hard enough

416
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 7: in this situation, a violent, chaotic situation to identify anybody

417
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:33,840
Speaker 7: if they don't have a mask but wear a mask,

418
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,600
Speaker 7: Come on, I mean that's crazy. But now you've refused

419
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 7: the plea deal. Now they're out for blood because you

420
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,679
Speaker 7: had the audacity to reject the plea deal for crimeun

421
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 7: and commits exactly, So it goes to trial. And how

422
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:49,800
Speaker 7: did it end up going so wrong?

423
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,280
Speaker 6: I testified my witness testified my alibi witnesses.

424
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Speaker 4: There were no contradictions.

425
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Speaker 6: And it's hard to explain my lawyer, you know, it

426
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,639
Speaker 6: was really no pretrial investigation by him where I expected

427
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,199
Speaker 6: for him to give me one hundred percent. It was

428
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,280
Speaker 6: as if I was only getting like ninety percent from him,

429
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 6: just enough for him to be able to say to

430
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,280
Speaker 6: the ball I did my job.

431
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:15,440
Speaker 4: But when you look at it.

432
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,639
Speaker 6: More closely, you understand that there were a lot of

433
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 6: things that he didn't do that he could have done.

434
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,320
Speaker 6: I know that by the time the evidence, this was

435
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,160
Speaker 6: what really stood out to my attorneys. By the time

436
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,719
Speaker 6: they had heard two days a trial, when they were

437
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 6: time to go in and make a decision, a question

438
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,680
Speaker 6: came out from the jury. That question was who positively

439
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,720
Speaker 6: identified Massiah went and where this was? After all the

440
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,159
Speaker 6: evidence was presented to them. The case was just that

441
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 6: confusing that they couldn't remember who identified me positively went

442
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 6: and where. And the judge just said, you have to

443
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 6: go from your own recollection. I can't tell you that,

444
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 6: And so they went in. They went in there for

445
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,000
Speaker 6: about forty five minutes, not long My lawyer came back

446
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,360
Speaker 6: to tell me, he said, look.

447
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:03,199
Speaker 4: It's not good. They found you guilty, and I was

448
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 4: I was stunned. I couldn't believe it. Man, it was.

449
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 6: I don't know, it's hard to explain. It's sort of

450
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,359
Speaker 6: a haze. And as I was sitting there, you know,

451
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,359
Speaker 6: at the jury began reading off how much time for

452
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 6: each charge that I was convicted of, and they were saying,

453
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 6: you know, seven seven, five, five five, And it was

454
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 6: a moment where my attorney looked at me.

455
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 4: And said, well, how much is that?

456
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,920
Speaker 6: And I was just like, man, you have the penning paper,

457
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,199
Speaker 6: you're not adding this up. I after the first five years,

458
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 6: you know, I didn't hear anything else.

459
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 3: And so how many charges were you convicted of?

460
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:43,679
Speaker 4: Twenty six charges?

461
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 7: Twenty six charges for allegedly walking into a beauty salon,

462
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 7: holding up the place, and not even whoever it was

463
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,679
Speaker 7: that did this didn't actually hurt anybody, right, No, I

464
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 7: mean it's a violent crime because there was a weapon involved,

465
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 7: so act you know, legally speaking, it's a violent crime.

466
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 7: But I do think there's an important distinction when no

467
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 7: one was hurt. Obviously, it's traumatic for the victims in

468
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 7: this case to have gone through this, and there's I

469
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,640
Speaker 7: don't want to diminish that in any way. But at

470
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 7: the same time, it's bizarre when you know that murderers

471
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 7: get fifteen years, right, and around the world the most

472
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 7: you can get in most civilized countries is fifteen years

473
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 7: no matter what you've done, right.

474
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 3: But here you have a crime.

475
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,439
Speaker 7: In which nobody was hurt and forgetting the fact that

476
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 7: for a second that you were innocent. So they convicted

477
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 7: you on twenty six counts, but they ended up sentencing

478
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,360
Speaker 7: you when they edded up the fives and the sevens

479
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 7: and everything else.

480
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 4: One hundred and thirty two years, one hundred and thirty

481
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:37,920
Speaker 4: two years.

482
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,679
Speaker 6: So and in Virginia, for those who don't know, you know,

483
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 6: and you know, nineteen ninety five, it took away the

484
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 6: ability to have parole available to you. In addition to

485
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 6: that in that statue, there's an additional statute that says

486
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 6: you also have to serve eighty five percent of your time.

487
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 6: So what I received was equivalent to the deathcinis. Well, yeah,

488
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 6: to live the rest of your life in prison and

489
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 6: then die there.

490
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, they abolished parl in nineteen ninety five in Virginia,

491
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 7: which is incomprehensible to me. But the idea that they

492
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 7: sentenced you to life in prison.

493
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,879
Speaker 3: After offering you three years.

494
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 7: Also, like, how was there even a universe in which

495
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 7: you could say, well, as a society, we were good

496
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 7: with you doing three years for this, but because you

497
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 7: exercised your constitutional right to a trial, you get one

498
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 7: hundred and thirty two years.

499
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

500
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 6: It was devastating for me and my family. And I

501
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 6: can tell you that it was a moment where I

502
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 6: was at the jail after I happened sentenced, and my

503
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 6: oldest daughter, who was about seven at the time, she

504
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 6: came to see me, and you know, she's an intelligent

505
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 6: young lady, and she asked me, she said, Dad, oh,

506
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 6: do you really have one hundred and thirty two years

507
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 6: or do in prison? And I said yes, And you know,

508
00:22:52,680 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 6: her response was, you can't even live that one. There

509
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 6: was a moment, you know, which was really important to

510
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 6: me while I was being sentenced. I didn't drop my head,

511
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 6: but I think one of my family friends must have

512
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 6: noticed that maybe I was about to. She actually stood

513
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 6: up in court, you know, and said, look, hold your

514
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,959
Speaker 6: head up, We're not going to give up. And it

515
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 6: was in that moment that very early for me. In

516
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 6: that moment that I realized that I was going to

517
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 6: have to continue fighting.

518
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 4: And so.

519
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 6: After that, I just knew it was time for me

520
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 6: to get back to business of fighting for my freedom.

521
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 6: When you get in prison, when you really understand that

522
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 6: they've decided that they want to take your life.

523
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 4: Because everything about my life changed. The way I walk, talk, you.

524
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 6: Know, everything, the movements, how long got that be on

525
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,959
Speaker 6: the phone? Who I can call, what kind of foods

526
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 6: to eat, what kind of medical care? Everything changed completely,

527
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 6: and so I decided that I didn't want that to

528
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 6: be my life. And so what I did was I

529
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 6: looked at the contrast to myself in prison, and the

530
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 6: contrast is most of us have who are doing time

531
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 6: with that has that amount, have fallen into despair and

532
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 6: given up because Virginia has made it extremely difficult for

533
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 6: you to get out of prison. Once you're in prison,

534
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,959
Speaker 6: everything is contingent on newly discovered evidence, but a lot

535
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,959
Speaker 6: of people are not aware of the anti terrorism effected.

536
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 4: Definitely. I speak about this all the time.

537
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 6: That Bill Clinton acted basically is telling you that once

538
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 6: your direct appeal is over where you have representation, that

539
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 6: you are required to file a HAB's corpus within a year.

540
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 6: So you're expected a law student. How long does it

541
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 6: take that person to graduate? Eight years well, including college

542
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 6: yees seven or whatever. You're required to have that knowledge

543
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,719
Speaker 6: and represent yourself pro se with inadequate information and materials.

544
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 4: And if you don't, then after that.

545
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 6: Year, you judicially bought from being able to present legitimate

546
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 6: claims your custuals vice being vilid.

547
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 4: It's just ridiculous.

548
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 7: The idea that we would want to keep anybody in

549
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 7: prison one day after we find out that they're innocent,

550
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,239
Speaker 7: regardless of whatever procedural you know, it's nuts, right, And

551
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 7: the fact that we want to deny somebody like yourself

552
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 7: the opportunity to present newly discovered evidence is completely illogical too.

553
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 7: And you really said it best. I mean when you

554
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 7: talk about the idea that, yeah, you're right, you're given

555
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 7: a year for a lot of people who hadn't been

556
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 7: to college to learn everything you would have learned in

557
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 7: college plus law school. Not everything, but all the most

558
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 7: important things are going to help you in your defense.

559
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 7: Then figure out how to file these papers and find

560
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 7: the evidence that's been hidden from you in the first place.

561
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 7: That would have been much easier to find an original trial,

562
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 7: And then file it, and then it's much harder for

563
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 7: a pro say emotion to succeed in a motion that's

564
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 7: filed by an attorney in.

565
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 3: The free world.

566
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 7: So it's really a shame that that law has prevented

567
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 7: so many other people from getting out that deserve to

568
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 7: get out.

569
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 4: I will say this.

570
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 6: I know I hear the terminology mass incarceration quite often,

571
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 6: but with this law, and especially with the laws in

572
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 6: the state of Virginia, you know, this is more along

573
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 6: the lines of judicial genocide. This is not mass incarceration.

574
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 6: You're talking about taking away generations of individuals and never

575
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 6: giving them a second chance back out of society. And

576
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 6: it's targeted with disenfranchised, mainly blacks and Latinos.

577
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, they make it easy to get in and really

578
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 7: hard to get out, I mean almost impossible.

579
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 6: Unfortunately, I began to study the law. You know, I

580
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 6: did a lot of research on my own case, and

581
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 6: you know, when I come through the transcripts just to

582
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 6: see how many because I could remember all these contradictions,

583
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 6: I ended up with nine pages of conflicting testimony was

584
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 6: just mind blowing to me. It was one of the

585
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 6: things I presented to the Innocent Project and to other organizations.

586
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 6: I did a lot of research and I painted a

587
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 6: very clear picture of my innocence with all the research

588
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 6: I had done, and began presenting it, and I was

589
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 6: turned down by quite a few post conviction organizations. And

590
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 6: then the innocence projects began to materialize.

591
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 7: And we're talking about the University of Virginia in It's

592
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 7: this project to do incredible work they do. Yeah, and

593
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 7: I've been down there and I know the people there,

594
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 7: and I encourage anyone listening to support them. You can

595
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 7: just google University of Virginia in It's Project. It's a

596
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 7: great organization to hear more about that.

597
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 6: One of the people that I had a pleasure of

598
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 6: speaking to was did your in Right? And I'm smiling

599
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 6: now because I think about the first time I met

600
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 6: Deddre in Right, and she and I had a conversation

601
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 6: and even though we were having a conversation about my case,

602
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 6: it was a personal conversation too, about character and family

603
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 6: and you know, just my how much loss I had

604
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 6: endured and.

605
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 3: So how many years have you been there by this.

606
00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 4: Point fourteen fifteen years?

607
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 3: And Deirdre is the director right of this.

608
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 6: She is director of the Innocent Project at UVA School

609
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 6: of Law and runs the pro bono clinic.

610
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 7: So for you, that's when things started to take a

611
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 7: turn in the right direction.

612
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 4: It did.

613
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 6: She understood immediately once I presented those things to her,

614
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 6: and she's impeccable in her investigation skills. She knew exactly

615
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 6: how she wanted to, you know, go about getting the

616
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 6: necessary information. Her and her students went out. They utilized

617
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 6: the Freedom Information Act and found out that this guy

618
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 6: had committed all these robbers around the same time that

619
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 6: I was arrested. And this is what led them to

620
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 6: the person who actually committed the crime. They went to

621
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 6: see him and he basically five minutes into the conversation

622
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 6: and he was like, I know why you're here. You know,

623
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 6: they mentioned that, you know, this beauty salon got robbed,

624
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 6: and he basically said, look, I know what you want.

625
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 6: I'm the person who did this. He said he didn't

626
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 6: know that anybody was actually locked up for the crime,

627
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 6: and had spoke to his spiritual advisors and family member

628
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 6: was and you know, he wanted to just come clean

629
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 6: about it.

630
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's amazing.

631
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 7: It's really dramatic because they went to see him and

632
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 7: they were only given twenty five minutes to talk to him.

633
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: That's correct.

634
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 7: And in those twenty five minutes they had to somehow

635
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 7: other earn his trust and get him to confess to

636
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 7: a crime that you were in prison for.

637
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 3: And they did.

638
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 6: And then from there we began to build a case,

639
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 6: not forward. We started from the back. Once we got

640
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 6: the confession in Virginia, you know, you don't take it

641
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 6: directly to the commonwealth because then they're going to go

642
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 6: to all the witnesses involved. Everybody wants to say, look,

643
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 6: this guy is trying to say that he didn't have

644
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 6: anything to do with it. They're going to get out

645
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 6: for Davis from those people. But we did that, and

646
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 6: by the time we presented that to the courts, we

647
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 6: got denied by the same judge who initially refused to

648
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 6: give me a sentence reduction.

649
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 4: But he was still on the bench. I think he's

650
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 4: still present now.

651
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 6: Because of Virginia law after that year, you're not allowed

652
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 6: to file a habeas corpus second and success of Hay's corpus.

653
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 6: So he denied us, and so mcculloff was in office

654
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 6: at the time, right And.

655
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 7: This gets a really interesting part of the story too,

656
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 7: because Governor mccauliffe, who I've become very friendly with. To

657
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 7: his credit, he had this sense of outrage when I

658
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 7: was talking to him about these crazy sentences that Virginia

659
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 7: was handing out to people. You know, we talked about

660
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 7: Travion Blount, and we talked about Letting Singleton, and we

661
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 7: talked about some of these other people that were doing

662
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 7: these literally like mind blowing sentences, and you were certainly

663
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 7: one of them. I mean, like, your sentence is so nuts.

664
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 7: And he fortunately was in a position to do something

665
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 7: about it. So how did that come down?

666
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 6: So to me, he was very forward thinking governor, and

667
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 6: he had made public comments about how far behind gen

668
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 6: you was compared to other states in the criminal justice system.

669
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 6: And so we as a whole thought that it was

670
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 6: best for us to put together a petition for clemency

671
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 6: while he was in office, before he left, and so

672
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 6: we did that.

673
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 3: And that's basically like buying a lottery t it is.

674
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 3: It is.

675
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 4: I say that all the time.

676
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 6: It is very difficult because they usually deal with those

677
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 6: things after you've exhausted all your remedies. And because we

678
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 6: had this newly discovered evidence, we were able to still

679
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 6: go to the federal courts, which we're getting ready to

680
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 6: do now because we're still pending. And so on the

681
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 6: day that he was leaving, on the day before, we

682
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 6: were asking, you know, has he ruled on the side

683
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 6: his petition yet, and he's like, no, but he's getting

684
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 6: to it and he'll get to it before he leaves.

685
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 4: And you know, Diezer was.

686
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,239
Speaker 6: Calling periodically every hour. You know, I think we're going

687
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 6: to get it. We're not sure yet. You know, I

688
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 6: tried to call this person. They said, yeah, they're looking

689
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 6: at it right now. So the day of I think,

690
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 6: no more than an hour after he was supposed to

691
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 6: be leaving office, we get the call, you know, and

692
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 6: they said, you've been granted a conditional pardon with the

693
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 6: absolute aspect of the part and still pending. You know,

694
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 6: the outcome of the investigation. That was a wonderful feeling.

695
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 6: Man to hear that.

696
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 3: Who called it recalled me right.

697
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 4: We were just related. We were overjoyed, you said.

698
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 6: We Deirdre and the whole team, everybody, you know, the

699
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 6: jigu and right and Jennifer Gibvens who was another attorney there,

700
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 6: also a director. They had been coming to the prison

701
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 6: regularly and calling for me. They assisted me and aided

702
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 6: me in ways, you know. And anybody who who's represented

703
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 6: by them will tell you they go above and beyond

704
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 6: with their representation and helping you not only with the

705
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 6: legal aspect, but personal things that you be going through

706
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 6: in prison.

707
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 4: It's rare you see somebody who does that, you know.

708
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 6: With all the way pro say throughout you know, but

709
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 6: this was a collective effort of all of us.

710
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 3: What was the reaction in the prison when you got

711
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 3: this news? Were people wow, jealous? Were they happy? What

712
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 3: was the reaction of the other char The majority.

713
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 6: Of people who were happy because they understood my struggle.

714
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 4: They saw me working.

715
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 6: There's two different types of people in prison, those who

716
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 6: working to get out on those who's just waiting for

717
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 6: something to happen. And while I was in prison, I

718
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 6: helped a lot of people along the way. Digit and

719
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 6: Writing Jennifer Gills will tell you, I've read people's cases.

720
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 4: I've read multiple cases.

721
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 6: I've done research myself and helped them with their cases,

722
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 6: file emotions for them.

723
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 4: But I've also introduced them.

724
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 6: To Digit and Right and Jennifer Givens and so those

725
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 6: people and a lot of people I've made quite a

726
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 6: few friends you can imagine after twenty years, you make

727
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 6: some friends.

728
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 4: They were just delated.

729
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: How long did it take you to get out after

730
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: the call?

731
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 6: They wanted to make you do five months? I did

732
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 6: four from January to April, right, because they have that

733
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 6: re entry the reentry program. But I stayed on top

734
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 6: of the people every day, like, look, you gotta let

735
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 6: me get this program.

736
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 3: Man.

737
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 6: Everything is contingent on me getting out as me complete

738
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 6: these programs. So they put me to the top of

739
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 6: the list.

740
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 7: And you know, so you had one hundred and twelve

741
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 7: years left to go, and now it turns to four months.

742
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: How did those four months go by? Faster? Slow?

743
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 6: It went by the same for me. I put myself

744
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 6: in that kind of mind frame that I don't really

745
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 6: believe until it actually happens. You know, even though I

746
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 6: got the pardon with a discretionary release date, you still

747
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 6: don't believe it till it actually happens. Anybody, I think

748
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 6: everybody will tell you this. Until you actually cross that threshold,

749
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 6: you just don't believe it.

750
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 3: Man.

751
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 7: And I've seen the video of you walking out of

752
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 7: prison into the arms of your family and the attorneys

753
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 7: from the Virginia Insis Project it's a very powerful moving

754
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 7: thing to see going back to prison for a second

755
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 7: sometimes like to ask what was the best and the

756
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 7: worst thing to happen. Was there a moment, even in

757
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 7: the darkest of times, when there was like a ray.

758
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 6: Of light or hope mentally and emotionally, you know, there's

759
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 6: valleys and peaks. You know, you're trying to make sense

760
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 6: of everything that's happening to you. You know, you want

761
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 6: to stay within the realm of reality, but that reality

762
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 6: maybe something that's for the rest of your life. And

763
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 6: so for me, there was some few dark moments and

764
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 6: I reached out to you know, Nikki Giovanni. You know,

765
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 6: she's a renown black activist, scholar, poet, and educator, because

766
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 6: she had a poem that resonated with me called Quilt

767
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 6: in the Black Ip And I couldn't find a book anywhere,

768
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 6: and so I wrote her, and she wrote me back

769
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 6: and sent me to autograph books, and that kind of

770
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 6: gave me that there's people out here that still really

771
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 6: do care, you know. And so there were moments like

772
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 6: that that really continue to inspire me to, you know,

773
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 6: fight for my freedom. But I have to say this,

774
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 6: all of who I am today is a reflection of

775
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 6: that which has been shaped and moted by my circumstance

776
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 6: of the last twenty years.

777
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 4: So I developed a very profound perspective.

778
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 6: About life that has allowed me to know my purpose,

779
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 6: and within that purpose, it's really about helping others. And

780
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 6: so at some point I want to be able to

781
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 6: develop a nonprofit which i've you know, really developed, and

782
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 6: it's called the Lion Initiative Liberating Individuals Oppression Now and

783
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 6: it will have several programs, and they want about educating

784
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 6: the community about laws and how they can affect change

785
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 6: through their legislators, people who are supposed to represent them.

786
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 6: But I learned that a lot of elders in the communities,

787
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 6: they don't have the education. They want to be educated

788
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 6: about the law and how they can effectively make change.

789
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 6: And so that incarceration and prevention with the youth, and

790
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 6: investigative practices for those who are in prison who don't

791
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 6: have the money and can't find the resources. Because everything

792
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 6: in Virginia is based on post conviction investigation, you really

793
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 6: need that in order for you to even find newly

794
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 6: discovered evidence.

795
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 7: Now, I'm glad you brought that up, because that is

796
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 7: truly what the Virginia Innos's project did. In your case,

797
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 7: they wasn't really reinvestigated the case. It was never investigated.

798
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 3: Properly in the first place, exactly.

799
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 7: And you know, if we had a fair or system,

800
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 7: we would have defense attorneys, even public defenders, who were

801
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 7: given enough time to work on each individual case that

802
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 7: they could at least mount some sort of effective investigation. Obviously,

803
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 7: they're not going to be able to do, you know

804
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 7: what a private attorney who is working on just a

805
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 7: few cases can do, because.

806
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 3: They're always going to be overwork.

807
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 7: But we need to reduce that burden because some of

808
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 7: these guys are working on one hundred cases at the time,

809
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 7: and there's just no way even the best attorney in

810
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 7: that situation can't possibly do the most effective job for

811
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 7: their client.

812
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 3: And in your case, it was literally your life that

813
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 3: was hanging in the balance.

814
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 7: And so forgetting the fact that you had this you know,

815
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 7: half crazy and competent guy in the first place, I mean, you.

816
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 3: Had really hit the jackpot of me.

817
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 7: Between the mistake and eye witnesses and the official misconduct

818
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 7: and effective assistance of council to show up the I

819
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 7: mean everything, it's really it's the reverse jackpot. I mean,

820
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 7: everything that could have gone wrong went wrong, and we

821
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 7: know what the end result was, and the end result

822
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 7: of it in some man in prison for twenty years,

823
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 7: and even then, it's a mereracle that you're here now

824
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 7: and still fighting, which is great, and I want to

825
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 7: talk about that too, because you are fighting your case.

826
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 7: I believe you will prevail, even though it's the tedious

827
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 7: process and has made it so difficult for federal judges

828
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 7: to overturn state convictions even when they know it's wrong.

829
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 7: But that being said, you're also you know, it seems

830
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 7: to me like you're hitting the ground running, you know,

831
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 7: not missing a beat. I know you're working now, but

832
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 7: you have a skill. That's that I want to talk

833
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 7: about because you know, we don't know who's listening. It

834
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 7: might be somebody listening who might need some of your talents,

835
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 7: you know, and talking about graphic design and you know,

836
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 7: talk about some of that stuff.

837
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 6: That it was a trade that was available at substage

838
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 6: to state prison communication. Graphic loss and design is the

839
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 6: re entry process. And so I finally made it into

840
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 6: the class and became proficient, but I'm still a feeling

841
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 6: and so every time I go to fill out applications,

842
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 6: so forth and so on.

843
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 3: You gotta check the box.

844
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 4: You check the box.

845
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 7: But if people want to, if they need somebody to

846
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 7: do some design work for them or something like that,

847
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 7: whether they're in Virginia or even something you could do

848
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 7: on the web, how could they reach out to you?

849
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 6: My Gmail is los Sean three sixty s l O

850
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 6: R D s h I n E.

851
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 3: It's l O R D s h I n E

852
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 3: three sixty at gmail dot com.

853
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 4: That's correct. I'm on Facebook, Instagram.

854
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: What's your Instagram?

855
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 4: Oh, Messiah Alidah, So.

856
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 3: It's Messiah Emmy s s I A H.

857
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 4: A L A D A R L A space and

858
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 4: then Johnson.

859
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 7: Okay, Messiah, it's easy, I think once you type in

860
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 7: Messiah and then A A L A D A R

861
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 7: and then underscore Johnson. So, Messiah, I want to, of

862
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 7: course thank you for coming and being here and compare

863
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 7: this insane story. And I think a lot of people

864
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 7: are going to take something out of it that's going

865
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 7: to be meaningful to them, not least to which is

866
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 7: your spirit, which remains, you know, just so positive and

867
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 7: it's quite remarkable. I want to make sure we ask you,

868
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 7: is there anyone else that you want to thank, Do

869
00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 7: you want to shout out your girls?

870
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 6: Yes, I couldn't be here today without all the love

871
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 6: and support that I received from my family and friends.

872
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 6: It was an arduous journey and it still is because

873
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 6: I'm still fighting for exoneration. I need to be vindicated

874
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 6: for all the stuff that you know I've been through.

875
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 6: But they have truly been an inspiration to me, and

876
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 6: I just couldn't have done it without them and all

877
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 6: of the students that help work on this case. Of course,

878
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 6: did your in right, her family, Jennifer Givens, her family,

879
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 6: the media who eventually began reporting the true story, and

880
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 6: I don't know the list I can go on forever.

881
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 6: Yourself for having me here today and allowing me to

882
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 6: share this story and this truth, because ultimately, I hope

883
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 6: that this inspires somebody, whether you're a prisoner in prison

884
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 6: and feel like you're hopeless, these stories and I've listened

885
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 6: to a lot of your podcasts.

886
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 4: They are inspiring.

887
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 6: Even though I've gone through my own set of circumstances,

888
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 6: those podcasts are still inspiring to me. For me to

889
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 6: continue fighting for myself from others.

890
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 3: That means a lot.

891
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 4: I mean, no you're You're genuine.

892
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 6: I met you a few months back, and I always

893
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 6: want to know if somebody is genuine, you know, especially

894
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 6: if you haven't gone through these set of circumstances. And

895
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 6: you are the real deal man, And I appreciate everything

896
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 6: that you're doing because you could be doing so many

897
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 6: other things, but to have somebody at some point inspire

898
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 6: you and then for you to take on this cause. Man,

899
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 6: it's truly important man, for society. And I'm with you, man, well,

900
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 6: thank you man.

901
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: That means a lot.

902
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 7: And now after I collect myself, I want to honor

903
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 7: our tradition here at Wrongful Conviction, and our listeners know

904
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 7: this is the part of the show where I get

905
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 7: to uh to basically sign off. But before I do that,

906
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 7: and what I mean by that, I don't mean sign off,

907
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 7: So don't don't true now because it's the best part

908
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 7: of the show. But I want to, of course thank

909
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 7: you again Messiah Johnson for coming in and sharing your

910
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 7: story with us. I want to apologize to you for

911
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 7: what society America, Virginia you know, put you through. But

912
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 7: I know the best has yet to come for you,

913
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 7: and I'm looking forward to a friendship and watching you,

914
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 7: you know, succeed beyond everybody's wildest expectations.

915
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 3: So I get to.

916
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 7: Turn the microphone, my microphone off and leave yours on

917
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 7: for any closing thoughts that you have.

918
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 6: I don't know if you know Melvin Van Peebles, Mario

919
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 6: van People's father, well, he said he had a friend

920
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 6: that had three partners. They all went out to a

921
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 6: club one day and all three of them got locked up.

922
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 6: Two of them got out on bail, went home. His

923
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 6: friend got out the next day, and by the time

924
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 6: he got there, his friends had split up his property

925
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 6: in his house as if he was never coming back.

926
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 6: And he said, this is basically the mentality of society

927
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 6: about prisoners. And so you have to know that that

928
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 6: mentality won't bring about a change. You know, you have

929
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 6: to know that these laws can affect you, either directly

930
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 6: or indirectly in some form of fashion if.

931
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 4: You're not involved.

932
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 6: I hope that me coming here today, like I said,

933
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 6: inspires others to continue fighting for themselves and others. It

934
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 6: is truly a necessity that we begin to educate ourselves.

935
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 6: So my plea to everybody is begin educating yourself, begin

936
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 6: getting behind these causes of criminal justice. Reform so we

937
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 6: can bring about a true balance back in society.

938
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening.

939
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 7: This has been an amazing experience for me and I

940
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 7: hope for you too. We'll see you next week. I'm

941
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 7: wrong for Conviction. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

942
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 7: Wherever you get your podcasts.

943
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 3: It really helps.

944
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 7: And I'm a proud donor to the Enesis Project, and

945
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 7: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

946
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 7: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

947
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 7: to Innocentsproject dot org to learn how to donate and

948
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 7: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

949
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 7: Hall and Kevin Wortis. The music in the show is

950
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,439
Speaker 7: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

951
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 7: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

952
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 7: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

953
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 7: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association

954
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 7: with Signal Company Number one