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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Thoughts Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Wisenthal. Joe, we like

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Speaker 1: to talk about money, don't we. And you know what

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Speaker 1: I realized the other day, there's Well, we've spoken a

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Speaker 1: lot about different types of money. So we've done cash,

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Speaker 1: We've done historical forms of money, We've done a ton

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Speaker 1: on bitcoin, ethereum cryptocurrencies. We've even talked about that time

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Speaker 1: you develop your own cryptocurrency. But there's one type of

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Speaker 1: money that we haven't actually done an episode on yet.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more so. There is a type of money

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Speaker 1: that sort of straddles the world of digital currencies and

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Speaker 1: traditional forms of money, I think, and that is the

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Speaker 1: central bank digital currency or c d C for short.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, No, this is an interesting area because, yes,

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Speaker 1: alongside the sort of emergence of private, uh independent digital currencies,

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Speaker 1: we have seen central banks all around the world do

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Speaker 1: some efforts towards implementing their own or creating their own

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Speaker 1: piloting projects of essentially having yeah, digital versions of cash.

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Speaker 1: I guess, I guess you would say. And I think

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Speaker 1: China is fairly far along with it's endeavored but I

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Speaker 1: don't think any of them have really taken off yet,

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Speaker 1: but definitely an area that I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are pretty interested in for a lot of different

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Speaker 1: policy And yeah, that's the thing is you wouldn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: expect this to be the case, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: the digital currency exploration that's going on right now is

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Speaker 1: very closely tied to monetary policy. And I have to

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Speaker 1: confess before we start, I have never entirely understood the

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Speaker 1: concept of called central bank digital currencies. I've never quite

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Speaker 1: understood what the problem central banks are trying to solve is,

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Speaker 1: and I've never quite understood how they will function alongside

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Speaker 1: traditional cash and bank reserves and things like that. But

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to say I think we have the perfect

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Speaker 1: person to discuss all of this today and to get

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Speaker 1: into a lot of those themes. So we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking with Ben Watt. Cray was of course on the

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Speaker 1: board of the e c B from two thousand eleven

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Speaker 1: to twenty nineteen, and he's now head of the Bank

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Speaker 1: for International Settlements Innovation Hub, and that group recently published

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Speaker 1: a report on cd d c s, part of a

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Speaker 1: sort of task force that involved a bunch of central

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Speaker 1: banks exploring this topic. So I think it's going to

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Speaker 1: be a good conversation and hopefully it answers some of

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Speaker 1: the questions that I, at least and probably a lot

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Speaker 1: of other people have had about central bank digital currencies

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Speaker 1: for some time. Yeah. No, I'm really excited because I'm

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Speaker 1: with you in that um, I too have had numerous

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Speaker 1: questions about what purpose they serve, what the central banks

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Speaker 1: see as the reason for launching them. So hopefully we

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Speaker 1: can get a lot of questions answered, and also hopefully,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe we could squeeze in a few questions

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Speaker 1: about uh just the economy and monetary policy as well,

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Speaker 1: because of course, Ben, while having served at the ECB

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Speaker 1: for so long, hopefully we get some thoughts about the

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Speaker 1: state of the world today, which of course still an

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Speaker 1: extraordinary time. Yeah, and I think, weirdly there might be

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Speaker 1: some natural overlap between two currencies and what's going on

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Speaker 1: right now in the global economy. So, without further ado,

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Speaker 1: Ben walk Curay, thank you so much for coming on

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Speaker 1: all thoughts welcome. Thank you very much for having me

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Speaker 1: so in the intro. Joe and I both just admitted

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Speaker 1: to not necessarily understanding digital occurrencies from central banks, maybe

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Speaker 1: just to begin with, you could sort of explain the concept.

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Speaker 1: And maybe one thing that's always confused me is if

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Speaker 1: we were to see something like a digital dollar or

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Speaker 1: a digital euro, how would that differ two For instance,

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Speaker 1: me holding a euro or a dollar in a traditional

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Speaker 1: electronic bank account, what is it that makes that digital

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Speaker 1: money different to you know, align in in my bank.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, these are these are excellent questions

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Speaker 1: because you may wander, I mean, we're living in a

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Speaker 1: in the world which is already massively demateralized. Most of money,

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Speaker 1: I mean more than money is already digital. So might

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Speaker 1: wonder why why all of a sudden now we discussing

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Speaker 1: digital currency. And so we're here to discuss central bound

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Speaker 1: digital currency, right CBDC. And so let me focus on

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Speaker 1: on the on the CB in CBDC, that is a

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Speaker 1: definition of CBDC. It's money that is issued by the

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Speaker 1: central bank, meaning it's a liability of the central bank. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's not the liability of a commercial bank or any

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Speaker 1: other player. It is digital, so it's not physical like

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Speaker 1: bank notes, and it's not issued to bonks as part

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Speaker 1: of monetary policy as we as we know it, which

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Speaker 1: is as bank reserves. Right, So bank reserves is as

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Speaker 1: if you think about it, it's money that bonks have

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Speaker 1: on their account with the central bank. It is digital,

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Speaker 1: so it is central bank digital currency and it has

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Speaker 1: been existing for for decades. So here we're talking of

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Speaker 1: any liability of the central bank which is digital but

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Speaker 1: not issued to commercial bonks as part of the implementation

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Speaker 1: of my type policy, which means to things. Either it

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Speaker 1: is digital and issued directly to citizens, so it's a

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Speaker 1: the equivalent digital equivalent of a bank note, and that

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Speaker 1: would be entirely new. Or it is issued to commercial bonds,

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Speaker 1: but not as a deposit on an account, but as

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Speaker 1: a token for instance, which gives give the answer to

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Speaker 1: your initial questions. So what's the what what the question?

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Speaker 1: We are we're trying to answer what the problem statement? Well,

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Speaker 1: there are two problems statements. The first one is what

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Speaker 1: happens if cash disappears, if citizens don't want to use

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Speaker 1: bank notes anymore, and how we happy if the only

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Speaker 1: way they have to pay for their expenses consumption is

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Speaker 1: to use commercial money money, should buy bonds to draw

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Speaker 1: from their bank accounts? Or do we want to keep

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Speaker 1: providing them with central bank money which today doesn't exist

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Speaker 1: in a digital form, so that the first question and

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Speaker 1: the second question is what happens if at the core

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Speaker 1: of the system, banks or financial market infrastructures would need

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Speaker 1: central mark money to set all the transactions in a

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Speaker 1: way that is not an account at the central bank,

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Speaker 1: and that could be a token for instance. So imagine

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Speaker 1: a future, maybe a near future, where some financial market

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Speaker 1: infrastructures would be um transacting exchanging tokens on on d

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Speaker 1: l t s. Right, if you want to keep settling

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Speaker 1: these transactions in central mark money, then you need a

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Speaker 1: way to either connect the DALT with the traditional payment

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Speaker 1: infrastructure or to issue a central bank token to the

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Speaker 1: d LT And that's what we call wholesale CBDC. So

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Speaker 1: there are two answers. Either it's whole sale CBDC because

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Speaker 1: the technology underlying financial infrastructures is changing, or it's retail

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Speaker 1: CBDC because in some places at least cash may be disappearing.

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Speaker 1: So these are two separate questions at both ends of

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Speaker 1: the financial system, at the front end and at the

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Speaker 1: back end. First of all, that was very helpful, just

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Speaker 1: sort of overview of what you're doing or what the

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Speaker 1: vision is. I guess one way that I sort of

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Speaker 1: think about it or here, what you're saying is, rather

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Speaker 1: than seeing the analogy as Okay, here's a money. If

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Speaker 1: I have it in a bank, it's a liability of

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Speaker 1: a bank. If I have it in some sort of

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Speaker 1: payment app like PayPal or Venmo, that dollar or that

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Speaker 1: euro is a liability of PayPal or Venmo. This is

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Speaker 1: more like cash, something that I hold in the wallet,

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Speaker 1: and something that's a direct liability of the central bank.

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Speaker 1: So that part makes sense to me. What is the

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Speaker 1: fundamental advantage, however, of doing this? So we have cash

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Speaker 1: that currently exists, we have online money or sort of

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Speaker 1: bank liability money as you described it, What from a

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Speaker 1: policy standpoint would in your view, the creation and widespread

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Speaker 1: adoption of a digital euro or a digital dollar or

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Speaker 1: a digital pound. What are the advantages that you see

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Speaker 1: for governments and central banks to actually launch them. So

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Speaker 1: my my answer, and that might might might be surprising

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Speaker 1: coming from a central banker, but that my answer would

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Speaker 1: be that it's not even a policy discussion. It is

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Speaker 1: a political discussion. The key question here is are we

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Speaker 1: satisfied if all money used by citizens for their daily

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Speaker 1: transactions is commercial money? That is how we satisfied if

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Speaker 1: the whole functioning, the daily functioning of the economy is

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Speaker 1: a at the end of conversation between citizens and and banks,

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Speaker 1: right or do we want the central bank as a

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Speaker 1: public institution to be part of it? And what's very

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Speaker 1: important here and also for the for the rest of

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Speaker 1: our discussion, is that the answer might be different in

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Speaker 1: different places. That is, in some places citizens may trust

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Speaker 1: and in many places I guess citizens would trust the

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Speaker 1: central bank better than visa, master card or Facebook or

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Speaker 1: city bank. Right in other places or in other corners

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Speaker 1: of societies, that might not be the case. And you

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Speaker 1: will find many people who who trust city bank more

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Speaker 1: better than the central bank, and you would you you

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Speaker 1: find people who trust bitcoin more better than the dollars

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Speaker 1: or the yero. And so the conclusion here is that

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Speaker 1: we have to let to let people decide for themselves

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Speaker 1: which kind of money they want to use, provided that

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Speaker 1: they are well informed on the risks, on the on

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Speaker 1: what on the implications. But the emerging consensus is that

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Speaker 1: a substantial fraction of society will ask to keep that

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Speaker 1: contact with the central bank, which is the ability to

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Speaker 1: use a direct liability on a public institution under parliamentary

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Speaker 1: supervision as part of a political system, and if we

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Speaker 1: want to keep that kind of access, then we need

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Speaker 1: to do CBDC. So that's really interesting because you've framed

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Speaker 1: more direct contact between people and the central bank through

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Speaker 1: cb dcs as an advantage or something desirable. But I

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Speaker 1: know one of the criticisms of digital money is that

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Speaker 1: there is a concern that you're in effect reduced in

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Speaker 1: the role of commercial banks in the economy, and that

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Speaker 1: might have unintended consequences for the transmission of monetary policy

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Speaker 1: or the way the financial system actually works. Some people

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Speaker 1: have talked about the potential to increase bank runs. For instance,

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Speaker 1: if people have a central bank issued alternative that's seen

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Speaker 1: as a safe place to park their money, they might

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Speaker 1: fly fly out of bank deposits and and go into

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Speaker 1: digital money. How are you thinking about about that particular issue,

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Speaker 1: How are you thinking about how CBDC might impact the

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Speaker 1: financial system as it exists today. So that's a that's

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Speaker 1: a very important point, Tracy, And that's that's also why

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Speaker 1: why I'm saying that we need an ecosystem right and contact.

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Speaker 1: What what people sometimes hear or think the there is

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Speaker 1: no intention by central bonds to to have a monopoly

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Speaker 1: on all kinds of money. The economy is are operated

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Speaker 1: with commercial money today or when you when you when

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Speaker 1: you buy a beer in a bar, it's very very

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Speaker 1: likely that you're going to pay either with a credit

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Speaker 1: card or with a telephone, and that will be eventually

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Speaker 1: coming from your bank account, and it's commercial money, that's

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Speaker 1: not a claim on the central mark, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to keep it like that, right, So so we'll we'll, we'll, we'll,

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Speaker 1: we'll keep an ecosystem where you'll have different forms of

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Speaker 1: different means of payments, different forms of money, and most

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Speaker 1: of it will be commercial. The question is do we

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Speaker 1: want to keep central mark money at the heart of

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Speaker 1: the system to uh to to to make it stable? Right,

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Speaker 1: And one of the of the key considerations that we

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Speaker 1: we have in thinking about the future ecosystem is exactly

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Speaker 1: what you mentioned, which is we don't want CBDC to

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Speaker 1: to kill bonks, right. We don't want to go to

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Speaker 1: the to the extreme of a system where all economic

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Speaker 1: players would use CBDC um and bonds would at best

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Speaker 1: be kinds of conduits would buy assets or extend credits

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Speaker 1: and and fund on the on capital markets, you know,

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Speaker 1: narrow banks or or a system of sovereign money at

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Speaker 1: that it's sometimes called or in Switzerland had a vote,

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Speaker 1: as you may remember, on some something called Folgal which

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Speaker 1: was rejected. So that's people that that's something that most

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Speaker 1: people don't runt, and that's something that regulators and sattle

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Speaker 1: bankers don't runt because they see your value in the

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Speaker 1: existence of commercial bonds as institution who take risk, who

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Speaker 1: transform credit, who take maturity risk and credit risk uh

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Speaker 1: and would do all kinds of financial intermediation in the economy.

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Speaker 1: We don't want to kill that system. And so there

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Speaker 1: is an active discussion on how to to mitigate the

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Speaker 1: kind of risks your highlighting treacy, which is that CBDC

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Speaker 1: would take over bank deposits and would would would make

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Speaker 1: banks more vulnerable. And there are different answers. We can

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Speaker 1: go into the details if you wish, And one of

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Speaker 1: the of the important discussions will have in the coming

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Speaker 1: months and years is what's the best answer if we

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Speaker 1: don't want this to happen. I want to ask take

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Speaker 1: it from the other angle. I mean, one of the

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Speaker 1: nie things about cash as we know it. If I

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Speaker 1: pay for something in the bar, if I you know,

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Speaker 1: go out and meet up with friends and want to

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Speaker 1: split a check somewhere or anything else. Is that it's

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Speaker 1: anonymous person a or somewhat anonymous person A can pay

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Speaker 1: something to person be without person ce knowing about it.

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Speaker 1: And they are all kinds of reasons why people prize privacy.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious if in your vision of a c B

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Speaker 1: d C A, would two people be able to make

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Speaker 1: a transaction without some third party entity having a sort

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Speaker 1: of centralized knowledge about who just made that transaction. And

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Speaker 1: I'm curious in your conversations around with regulators and central bankers,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you talked to a lot of different groups,

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Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies about their concerns. Finn send you think

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Speaker 1: about know your customer, anti monitor uh, anti money laundering laws,

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious whether in your converse stations and consultations

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Speaker 1: we've also talked to privacy groups about their concern So, UM, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean we've been doing that in particular when last year, UM,

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Speaker 1: there was a related discussion not on on CBDC, but

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Speaker 1: on stable coins right um, start starting from liberal right um,

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Speaker 1: And there has been an active discussion in policy circles

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Speaker 1: on how to regulate stable coins and the FSB just

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Speaker 1: came with a report on that with with guidelines on

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Speaker 1: on a stable kind of regulation. And privacy is also

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Speaker 1: a key, a key issue. And by the way, something

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Speaker 1: we found out that financial regulators don't often talk to

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Speaker 1: to privacy regulators or two privacy groups. And so that's uh,

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Speaker 1: let's say, it might sound like a kind of an

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Speaker 1: ancillary discussion, but it's actually very important that this this

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Speaker 1: kind of technical innovation forces us to also to read

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Speaker 1: things the way we we do regulation and to connect

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Speaker 1: to connect silos right which which until recently weren't connected

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Speaker 1: at all. And so and so we are talking now

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Speaker 1: with privacy regulators and with privacy groups. And that's an

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Speaker 1: instance of choices that have to make that have to

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Speaker 1: be made by by society and and and through a

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Speaker 1: political process. Because on the one hand, you have a demand,

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Speaker 1: you have demand for privacy which is there and which

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Speaker 1: is absolutely legitimate, and which is already in some places

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Speaker 1: like Europe very much unshrined and had hard wired into

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Speaker 1: lower with with with GDP are in particular. But on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, you also have a regulation and and

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Speaker 1: and and and laws against money wandering, against the financing

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Speaker 1: of terrorism, etcetera, which are equally important, right, and so

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Speaker 1: so any any CBDC architecture will have to strike a

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Speaker 1: balance between these two aspirations and the exact the way

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Speaker 1: we turn the dial. I imagine you should be a

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Speaker 1: political discussion, because I I don't see how central bankers

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Speaker 1: or bank supervisors could decide on on the on that

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Speaker 1: kind of things. It has to be political discussion. And

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Speaker 1: again there are ways to reconcile. So for instance, I'm

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Speaker 1: just giving an example, so I'm not I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: that's the way to go, but just to illustrate, you

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Speaker 1: could imagine a system where CBDC would be distributed by banks. Right,

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Speaker 1: so the front end would be banks. You would keep

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Speaker 1: talking to your bank. You wouldn't you wouldn't go directly

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Speaker 1: to the to the FED or the HKm, MAY or

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Speaker 1: the or the E c B. You would get your

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Speaker 1: CBDC from your bank, just as you get your bank

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Speaker 1: notes from your A T M. So exactly the same

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Speaker 1: as today. Banks would buy a given quantity of CBDC

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Speaker 1: from the central Bank using their bank reserves, just as

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Speaker 1: they buy bank knows today. And see, the central bank

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Speaker 1: could regulate the amount of CBDC for monetary policy purposes,

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Speaker 1: but the central bank would not know exactly to which

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Speaker 1: CBDC has been distributed, and that would be subject to

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Speaker 1: m L and c FT and and generally no customers

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Speaker 1: diligence and I know your client client rules just as

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Speaker 1: any transaction today. So that's a possible way that do

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Speaker 1: reconcile different aspects. You mentioned Libra briefly, which is Facebook's

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Speaker 1: attempt at a at a stable coin, and this sort

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Speaker 1: of reminds me of of another big discussion when it

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Speaker 1: comes to c b d C, and I guess part

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Speaker 1: of it is that if you're going to launch digital money,

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Speaker 1: even if you're a central bank, you're going to have

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Speaker 1: to have some sort of payment system that goes along

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Speaker 1: with it. And so central banks are going to have

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Speaker 1: to decide whether to build and run their own payment

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Speaker 1: systems or maybe to team up with companies in the

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Speaker 1: private sector who can do that for them. I'm curious.

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Speaker 1: Private corporations like Facebook are pretty good head technology. How

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Speaker 1: do central bank compete against companies like that like a Facebook,

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Speaker 1: or how do they work together with them for the

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Speaker 1: payment system. So we shouldn't be competing against against Facebook

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Speaker 1: because we are not in the same line of business right,

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Speaker 1: we're absolutely not in the same line of business and

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Speaker 1: and in the sense that's so if if I may

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Speaker 1: take a step back, that's that's exactly why these um

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Speaker 1: You mentioned the report which was issued by seven central

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Speaker 1: banks together with the bis UM, and that's a working

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Speaker 1: group I was culturing with a certainty from the Bank

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Speaker 1: of England. It started exactly with the consideration that we

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Speaker 1: we central bankers, have to come back to first principles

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Speaker 1: UM and and too often the discussion on digital money

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Speaker 1: digital currency UM started from the wrong place, like started

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Speaker 1: from the technological end of the discussion. Are we going

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Speaker 1: to do CBDC using blockchain? And if it's a blockchain,

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Speaker 1: is that going to be corder or hyper ledger or

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Speaker 1: whatever else, which is an important discussion in due time,

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Speaker 1: but it's not it's not the right the right place

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Speaker 1: to start from. We want to start from first principles.

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Speaker 1: And as a central banker, I would say our job

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Speaker 1: is to is twofold, is to ensure price stability or

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Speaker 1: monetized stability, meaning that you should have the ways and

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Speaker 1: means to implement your monetipe policy, whichever moneytype policy you've decided.

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Speaker 1: As a as a Monetipe Policy Committee. That's the first thing,

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Speaker 1: and CBDC should not hamper that. And if it can help,

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Speaker 1: it's even better. We can discuss it later. And the

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Speaker 1: second thing is financial stability. And an essential part of

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Speaker 1: financial stability is the existence of core payment systems at

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Speaker 1: the heart of the financial infrastructure, which connects financial institutions,

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Speaker 1: which connect jurisdictions, and which a low real time settlement

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Speaker 1: in central bank money. Right, and so the key role

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Speaker 1: of the central banks really is at the heart of

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Speaker 1: the system to provide stability. And we don't want to

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Speaker 1: take over. And there are many many things, most things

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Speaker 1: that we we won't we wouldn't do well and we're

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Speaker 1: not going to do so. To give an obvious example,

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Speaker 1: if CBDC comes as as a token, most likely is

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Speaker 1: going to be handled in in wallets, right, So you

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Speaker 1: would have a wallet on your phone, say with with

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Speaker 1: CBDC with central bank tokens in it. That's not something

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Speaker 1: central banks should be doing. It's it's very obvious to

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Speaker 1: all of her. That's wallets are something for the private

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Speaker 1: sector to do, right and so and so there there

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Speaker 1: there is room for everyone. There is room for everyone.

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Speaker 1: The key thing is any form of commercial money has

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Speaker 1: to be regulated, right, and there there might be a

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Speaker 1: financial stability considerations which would lead us to impose some

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Speaker 1: requirements like settlement in central bank money. But apart from that,

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Speaker 1: we need the private sector to innovate. All that innovation

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Speaker 1: will come from the friend sector. I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 1: aware that central bankers are particularly good that you know,

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Speaker 1: at finding new technologies. That's not what we do. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Can I ask you a question? I mean, you mentioned

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Speaker 1: stable coins. We talked about Libra, and I think that

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Speaker 1: there is a sort of spectrum of what we see

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Speaker 1: in the stable coins space, from sort of extremely projects

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Speaker 1: that attempt to be very uh legitimate Facebook as Facebook

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Speaker 1: Libra is probably one of them, to others that are

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Speaker 1: probably a little dice here. What is the regulatory case

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Speaker 1: for the existence of stable clinates because central bankers regulators

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Speaker 1: have been pretty permissive it seems of them for a while.

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious why from your perspective they're beneficial and

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Speaker 1: why uh sort of people should be able to use

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Speaker 1: a currency on the distributed ledger somewhere that is ultimately

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Speaker 1: backed up by a sort of licensed, licensed bank. Well,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't really see um stable coins as currencies, so

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Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit of a misnomber um. I

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Speaker 1: would see stable coins as um as new payment systems

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Speaker 1: which are very well, very integrated, back to end, a

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Speaker 1: close loop payment systems. So it's a it's it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit different from the kind of innovation that we've

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Speaker 1: seen until recently in the payment world, which was really

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Speaker 1: at the front end, right, it was about, you know,

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Speaker 1: providing you with a better interface, providing you with an

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Speaker 1: interface on your smartphone and son and so forth, And

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden we see payment architectures which are

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Speaker 1: entirely private, which which are encompassing and go and include

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Speaker 1: the the back end, that is the pipeline that will

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Speaker 1: that will bring money from one place to another, right,

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Speaker 1: which wasn't the case so far, and um, and that

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Speaker 1: might be okay. That might be okay if it's well regulated,

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Speaker 1: if consumers or investors are protected and know the risk

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Speaker 1: the risks they are taking, that might be okay to

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Speaker 1: have that kind of payment systems. I don't see I

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Speaker 1: don't really see that as the currency. I think that

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Speaker 1: as a new means of payment which can be convenient,

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Speaker 1: but which also raised as risks. And these risks have

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Speaker 1: been highlighted last year in the in the G seven

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Speaker 1: report and stable coins and and uh and and recently

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Speaker 1: by the by the FSB UM and the risks come

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Speaker 1: from the fact that these new projects are are global.

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Speaker 1: Liberal is an obvious example. And so there are risks

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Speaker 1: to the for instance, to the to the functioning of

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Speaker 1: the international monetized system which are entirely new, which you

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Speaker 1: you didn't have with earlier forms of cryptocurrency. Like what

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Speaker 1: happens if you have a major stable coin which is

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Speaker 1: being issued and you start to see substitution with with

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Speaker 1: local currency in some smaller jurisdiction. That would be a

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Speaker 1: concern for that jurisdiction, would be a concerned for the

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Speaker 1: I m F, would be a concern for the World Bank.

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Speaker 1: And that's something that we want to discuss. So so

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Speaker 1: you see new risks coming, right, But there is no

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Speaker 1: reason why a priori stable coins should be h rejected

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Speaker 1: and and and and and let me let me just

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Speaker 1: as a just for for the record mentioned there are

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Speaker 1: other forms of stable coin which hardly anyone speaks about,

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Speaker 1: which are wholesale stable coins. Right, imagine a coin that

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Speaker 1: would be issued by a by a large commercial bank

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Speaker 1: to settle transaction within a few a small group of clients,

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Speaker 1: and that would be backed by by central bank money.

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Speaker 1: That's a stable coin. It's much less of a discussion

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Speaker 1: because it's not going to reach billions of people, but

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Speaker 1: only a handful of commercial banks. So that's pretty easy

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Speaker 1: to to to understand and to regulate. But it's also coming.

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Speaker 1: My understanding is that one of the big debates about

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Speaker 1: digital money from central banks is whether it would strengthen

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Speaker 1: the transmission of monetary policy. So, on the one hand,

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Speaker 1: if you have CBDC, central banks can directly influence interest

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Speaker 1: rates on digital money and they basically control it. But

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, your as we discussed potentially setting

434
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: up a competitor to bank deposits, and we're not exactly

435
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: sure whether or not that might change the sensitivity of

436
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: the demand for that type of money to interest rates.

437
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: I be curious to get your views on is how

438
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: do you see CBDC interacting with monetary policy. That's a

439
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: really good question. It's a little bit the elephant in

440
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: the room because that's a it's a really good question,

441
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: and that's it's a it's a question that most central

442
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: banks are working hard to not to answer and see,

443
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: I take the report we've been we've been discussing. We

444
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: we we kind of allude to that, but we are

445
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: very early on the front. We say we're not going

446
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: to discuss it, right. And there is a simple reason

447
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: to that that, which is that monetary policy is a

448
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: is a different mandate and it's it's it's very national,

449
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: it's very domestic, and it's being decided in different places

450
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: like I mean monetary policy committees, um, and so central

451
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: bonds don't want to mix up the two discussions because

452
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: if CBDC comes and the way they will use it

453
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: for money type to do monetype policy is something that

454
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: they want to decide for themselves. And so the case

455
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: for international cooperation today is not on the monotype policy side.

456
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: It's on the payment side, because we want the payment

457
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: architecture to work smoothly and it is global, right uh.

458
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: And this is why, this is why you already see

459
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: and you're going to see a lot more international coordination

460
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: on CBDC and on digital money generally because payments are

461
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: the the backbone of the of the international financial architecture,

462
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: and so you won't go to see coordination for the

463
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: system to be stable. Well. Monetype policy is a sovereign matter,

464
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: is decided locally people and and and governors want to

465
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: talk to their and to report to their to their parliaments,

466
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: right to US Congress, to the European Parliament, et cetera.

467
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: That's not something they want to discuss in the open

468
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: air and internationally. So so that was a little bit

469
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: of a sociological or political you know, the tour to

470
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: to to explain, to explain to you why we're not

471
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: discussing it now. Of course, it is an issue. Of course,

472
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: it is an issue that central banks will have to

473
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: to decide for themselves. And I really see a key

474
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: question coming for for each and every central bank to decide,

475
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: which is do you want to do CBDC for monetary

476
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: policy reasons or do you want to make it as

477
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: neutral as possible on the way with respect to the

478
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: way you implement your monetype policy. And that's a decision

479
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 1: to take early on, because it impacts your architecture, It

480
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: impacts the way you're going to do CBDC. Right, if

481
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: you want CBDC to be accessed by your broad range

482
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: of economic players and if you want to be able

483
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: to control both the quantity and the price of that

484
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: particular form of money, which is what monet type policy

485
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: is about. Then it's different from deciding that you you're

486
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: going to issue a given amount of CBDC and then

487
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: you you don't want to know where it's going, for instance.

488
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: And so there is a potential to use CBDC in

489
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: a kind of tailor made way right in a kind

490
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: of very very granular way to um to bring money

491
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: to particular places, to uh to to to pump money

492
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: down the last mile as a as my colleague I

493
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: was in constance has has one said, that's that's that's

494
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: something that today's Central Bank is very much want to

495
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: see money being pumped down the last mile and and

496
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: reaching all players, all corners of society. UM. But if

497
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: you want to do CBDC to do that, then you

498
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: probably have to to design your CBDC in a different way.

499
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: And and Central Box have not decided yet really, so

500
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: we're a little bit at a cross roads there, and

501
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: different Central box may take different decisions. And so my

502
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: person my personal take if you're which which doesn't commit anyone,

503
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: and I'm not even doing money type policy because I'm

504
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: had the bi s so it's it's really my personal

505
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: view is that it is worth reflecting on that because

506
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: we we're kind of at the end of a cycle

507
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: where monetipe policy. We've made money type policy implementation incredibly

508
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: sophisticated since the Great Financial Crisis and again now through

509
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: the years of corner crisis. But most of it, if

510
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: not all of it, he goes through capital markets, right,

511
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: So we have very different sophisticated ways, complex ways to

512
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: influence on capital, on financial market expectations, and on and

513
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: and and on pumping money in and I out of

514
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: capital markets. But at some point that's hitting the limits

515
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: because our places in the economy where money just which

516
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: money just cannot cannot reach. It also might create political

517
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: issues because incredibly incredibly societies see monetype policy as being

518
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: a conversation between central bonks and and capital market participants

519
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: um and they feel excluded from that conversation. So that

520
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: that was my my last word that the e c

521
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: B last year, in my last speech in my last

522
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: meeting at the ECB, the conclusion was that if if

523
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: money type policy remains a conversation between central banks and

524
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: capital markets, then we shouldn't be surprised if people don't

525
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: trust us, right, And that's a little bit what we've seen.

526
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: And CBC can be a way to reconnect central banks

527
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: with with people if it's if he's done well. But

528
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: some central banks might want to go there, so we

529
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: don't want to go there, and that's fine. They're all different.

530
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: I mean, this might be a good moment to sort

531
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: of seg a little bit to some of the bigger

532
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: policy questions that the world faces right now. But it

533
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: seems to me like a point that you've made which

534
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: I find really interesting, and a few of your answers

535
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: is like a lot of these are just political questions,

536
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: and political questions have to be made to some extent

537
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: outside of the central bank. But I guess one of

538
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: them is do we want monetary authorities to have the

539
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: ability to more easily put buying power in the hands

540
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: of normal people, not just functioned through capital markets. And

541
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: it sounds like the sort of CBDC conversation that the

542
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: world is having is sort of a parallel potential conversation

543
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: to this question of do we want to expand the

544
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: tools that central banks have to get people money? Yeah?

545
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: I would, I would agree with that, And I mean

546
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: the fact that there are political dimensions. So it doesn't

547
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: imply that central banks should defer to two politicians, right CBDC.

548
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: CBDC is about the future of money, it's about the

549
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: future of multi policy, it's about the future of payments,

550
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: and so central banks should be on on top of

551
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: that discussion, which which which they are now. But what

552
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 1: I guess what we're both saying is there are dimensions,

553
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,239
Speaker 1: there are some trade offs where you need to to

554
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: get a sense of of the preferences of society. You

555
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: need to you need to take the pulse of society.

556
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: And that's why in all places CBDC will require um

557
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: extensive consultations, which is the way the for instance, the

558
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: Riggs Bank in in Stockholm has taken, which is always

559
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: easy b now is taking. You need to consult a lot.

560
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: That's not something that you want to do under closed

561
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: door in a in a central somewhere. You that's something

562
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: where many dimensions where which need their engagements with society

563
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: at large. So I know there's been some discussion on

564
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: potentially tearing interest rates when it comes to cb d

565
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: C and and maybe even allowing the Central Bank to

566
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: impose negative rates on digital money that they issue. That

567
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: probably says more about where we are in terms of

568
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: unconventional monetary policy as a whole than it does necessarily

569
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: about c B d C. But maybe that should be

570
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: a que too, to broaden the conversation and talk a

571
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: little bit about what's going on in the world at

572
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: the moment. I think when you were at the ECB,

573
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: there was an assumption that monetary policy would eventually get

574
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,239
Speaker 1: back to normal, But it seems increasingly likely now that

575
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: low interest rates and asset purchase programs, things like that

576
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: are here to stay. Do you think we're ever going

577
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: to get back to the days of boring central banking

578
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: where we would never be talking about negative interest rates

579
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: when it comes to CBDC. Yeah, well that's truely through

580
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: that term. I'm now old enough that I remember the

581
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: days where interest rates were positive. Le see, these were

582
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: the good old days. And the year the Corona, the

583
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: Corona crisis, the Corona shock as there has disrupted everything.

584
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: So I think it's fair to her, it's fair to

585
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: say that there is no prospect, there is no short

586
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 1: term prospect of money typolicy normalization anytime soon because of

587
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: the the amounts extraordinary amount of uncertainty that we have,

588
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: which which comes from from outside the economy, which comes

589
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: from the UM from the cycle of lockdowns and UH

590
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 1: and and waves, etcetera. And so as long as we

591
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 1: will have this kind of waves and uncertainty on lockdowns,

592
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: there will be the economy will be in a state

593
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: for very high fragility because UH expectations will because there

594
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: is no way that they are that that that businesses

595
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: or consumers can form expectations about the future, so that

596
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: that that that kind of compresses the time horizon of

597
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: of both businesses and consumers in a way that that

598
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: makes it very very difficult to to plan for the

599
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: long term, which is what central banks should be doing

600
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: now in there. If you think of the kind of

601
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: assignment of roles in the in the economic policymaking world,

602
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: you would expect central bankers to care for the long term,

603
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 1: while politicians are kind of prisoners of their of short

604
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: term incentives and constraints and political cycles and underlike UM

605
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: and you would like central bankers to think for the

606
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: for the future. But today's count because it's just too uncertain.

607
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: So it's very difficult to to UH to to to

608
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: kind of make make plans about the future of my

609
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: entire policy, and these I think the only year kind

610
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: of a sensible conclusion is that central banks need my

611
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: semum flexibility to to coop result kind of outcomes, So

612
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: they need to keep to keep all their options open.

613
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: So I mean, because of this sort of extraordinary moment,

614
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: and you mentioned it, I think in one of your

615
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 1: first answers were in an era in which they're sort

616
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 1: of a perception but prior also reality that there really

617
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: is only so much, so many tools at the central

618
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: bank's disposal. Right now, we have more people talking about, okay,

619
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: we need more aggressive fiscal policy across the developed world.

620
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: Even the I m F has said as such a

621
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: do you believe um that that is the case, that

622
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: there is an argument for fiscal authorities to do more?

623
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: But more importantly, do you think sort of going forward,

624
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: and even as this crisis hopefully sort of phades into

625
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: the rear view mirror, do you think it's worth a

626
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: sort of broader rethink about a more permanent role for

627
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: UH fiscal policy in terms of macro stabilization, such that

628
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,720
Speaker 1: we're not really depended on central banks to balance the economy.

629
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: Every time, you know, things things go bad, it's there.

630
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: It's a pity that you would need their global pandemics

631
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: to to have that discussion, right, I mean, I mean

632
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: it has started a little bit before, but it does

633
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: feel as though the pandemic has accelerated the discussion of nothing. Yeah,

634
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 1: I mean that there are there are I think the discussion.

635
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: I mean it it looks different in different places, and

636
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 1: we're thinking there. In the US, you have a very

637
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: decent tradition of stabilization policies, both on the monetary side

638
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: and on the fiscal side, and of a good, good

639
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: complimentarity between monetary policy and fiscal policy, and the economy

640
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: is flexible and resilient and strong enough that you you

641
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: can stay in that mode, right, because the economy always

642
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: comes back, and so you're not stuck in a state

643
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: of the world where you would have to to do

644
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: a very active monetype policy and very active fiscal policy

645
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: at the same time, because the economy it comes back. Right.

646
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 1: It's more difficult in Europe for different reasons, one reason

647
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: being that we've we've never been able so I say

648
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 1: we as a European right, uh now, we've never been

649
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 1: able to find the right fiscal framework, and so fiscal

650
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: policy has never been has never been very helpful in

651
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: helping the ECB manager cycle, and it's becoming more helpful now.

652
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: And you've discussed it with with my former colleague of

653
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: it or Constanzo, and I agree with with a lot

654
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 1: of what what he told you that is now happening,

655
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: and it's a it's a very good development. But the

656
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: other reason is that the economy is in Europe is

657
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 1: not nearly as flexible than the US. So if you're

658
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: into that kind of of extraordinary situation where you need

659
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: to to turn the dial and and have a very

660
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 1: active type policy and fiscal policy at the same time,

661
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: because the economy is not responding, you don't know how

662
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: much how how much time it will come to go

663
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: back to normal, right, because the economy is not facile

664
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 1: bab enough to do it by itself. So that's that's

665
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: a different situation, which also calls for a little bit

666
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: of caution, right because you can be stuck there in

667
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: that kind of in that kind of state of the

668
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: world for much longer. And so so far, so good.

669
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: I mean, the what what what fiscal authorities and my

670
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: entire authorities have done so far is exactly what you

671
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: were suggesting, And what what you what we want to

672
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: see that is good complimentarity between my entire policy and

673
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: fiscal policy. Even in emerging markets economy is by the way,

674
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: you are now seeing some I mean many emerging market

675
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: economies UM doing quee and the government is issuing more

676
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: domestic depth I mean domestic currency, the nominated depth, which

677
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: is santral banc and partly buy UM and that's the

678
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 1: way to kind of strengthen the complimentarity between my Thai

679
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: policy and fiscal policy, and that has given them much

680
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: more policy space. So you're seeing that happening in different places.

681
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: The question is what happens if that is that a

682
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: situation that can last for many years, because then depth

683
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: public depth will be building up. Private depth will be

684
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: building up as well. Some of it will be transferred

685
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: onto the balance sheet of the government UM and at

686
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: some point, whatever the efforts of the central bank, the

687
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: depth will be will be will be so high that

688
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: you will need some kind of rescheduling or restructuring. UH.

689
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: And so if if if the situation with the virus

690
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: states as it is for a number of for another

691
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: a few years, which of course nobody nobody hopes what

692
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: today looks like good corporation between moneti policy and fiscal

693
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: policy and and respectful of everyone's mandate right, not not

694
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 1: harmful to the independence of central banks. That's something that

695
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: that would become much more difficult to sustain because you

696
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: will have to start discussions on some some ways to

697
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: to to share the fiscal burden. And these discussions can

698
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: be politically very difficult and very harmful. And and it's

699
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: already starting in the in the developing world. I mean,

700
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 1: there is an a discussion on depth restructuring and depth

701
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: depth initiatives in the in the developing world. M if

702
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: we stay there for a few more years, that will

703
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: gradually come to the developed world, and that will that

704
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: will come with huge political difficulties. So um, I guess

705
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: the only conclusion is that you want to you want

706
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: a vaccine to be found very quickly. That's a conclusion.

707
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: I think we can all agree with that. Definitely, we

708
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: all agree with that. Yeah, you mentioned the interview we

709
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: did with your former colleague bitour Constantio, and one of

710
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: the things that came up quite a bit in that

711
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: conversation was inflation or the lack thereof. Rather than ask

712
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: you the same question that we ask bitore, which is

713
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: do central banks understand inflation? I want to ask a

714
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: slightly different one, which is, why do you think that

715
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: consumers or the average person's perception of inflation seems to

716
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: differ from what central banks are looking at? And I

717
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 1: think there's a stat out there that um, according to

718
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: European Commission Survey, households thought annual inflation was something like

719
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: nine percent between two thousand four and whereas we all

720
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: know having this conversation now, that inflation was actually below

721
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: the two percent target and quite far below it. So

722
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: where do you think that discrepancy is actually coming from, Well,

723
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: it comes from there. The way statisticians and central and

724
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: central bankers look at inflation is a is very is

725
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: from a southern feet right. It's a bird's eye view

726
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: on everything that's going on into the economy across social groups,

727
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: across age groups, across different places. And it's so it

728
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: totally kind of ignores the diversity of consumption habits, um

729
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 1: and the and also the fact that you buy different

730
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: different goods and services at different frequencies over time. So

731
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: individuals are are biased towards overweighting goods and services that

732
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: they buy very often like like obviously, I mean food

733
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: and dairy and and transports and and and refueling your

734
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: car and that kind of things, while and the price

735
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: of her of smartphones might be collapsing. I mean, that's

736
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: not something you buy very often. So when people ask you,

737
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: come and ask you about inflation, you're not going to

738
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: think about that. So there are huge cognitive biases which

739
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: which are which are just normal, and central banks have

740
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: not really made the effort to kind of translate their

741
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: concepts into concepts that people can relate to. And I

742
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: think that's a big challenge for the future. That central

743
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,720
Speaker 1: banks are absolutely right to to look at the economy

744
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: in the aggregate at a at an aggregate level, but

745
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: when they when they when they formulate their policies and

746
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: they're and their targets are in terms of inflation, they've

747
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: got to translate it in a way that people can understand.

748
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 1: And we're not doing that, you know, Without getting too

749
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: much into specific actions being taken by major central banks

750
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: right now, you know, I want to just talk a

751
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: little bit more about this sort of intellectual landscape, and

752
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: we see this movement towards um policies or frameworks that

753
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: seek to avoid past mistakes and the FED is engaging

754
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: or and now it's the new framework of average inflation

755
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: targeting UM combined with a sort of more robust forward guidance.

756
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 1: You've done a lot of work on these types of things,

757
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: uh in your career. Do you see this as evolution

758
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: average inflation targeting to avoid premature hikes in the future.

759
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: And do you think there's more that central banks can

760
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: do with sort of state contingent for for guidance, very

761
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: clear levels that they set before which they would consider

762
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 1: hiking raids or do you think the sort of current

763
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: or they sort of I guess at the state of

764
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: the art, so to speak, in terms of what can

765
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: be under this tour. Yeah. Look, look, I don't want

766
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 1: to I don't want to comment on specific decisions by

767
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: specific central banks. UM. I mean you can you can

768
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,919
Speaker 1: put very sophisticated words and concepts on that. I think

769
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, or it's a lot

770
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: of what is being done today in different places amounts

771
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: to just making sure that you will have maximum flexibility

772
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: to cope with with economic uncertainty and as you said, UM,

773
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: kind of firm tilting the discussion so that you're on

774
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: the right side of the discussion, and you prefer you

775
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: don't want to take the risk of having even lower inflation,

776
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: given that you're at or close to the lower abound

777
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: in terms of your interest rates um and and given

778
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: the the harmful the harmful con sequencers of deflation for

779
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: the economy, So you want to be in terms of

780
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: risk management, right, you want to be on the right

781
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: side of that of that risk. And if you if

782
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: you're going to take a chance, that would be the

783
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: chance of higher inflation, because then you know what to do.

784
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: That's how I understand what they're all saying, right, And

785
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: then you can put very fancy concepts on it, which

786
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: is which is fine. But as long as you as

787
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: the outcome is that you keep a lot of flexibility

788
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: and you are on the side of caution in terms

789
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: of not allowing a deflation to happen, I think that's fine.

790
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: And I don't think the exact framework matters matters too much,

791
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: all right, Well, Ben, what I really enjoyed that conversation,

792
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: and I feel like I actually have a, let's say,

793
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: the start of a good understanding of central bank digital currencies.

794
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: You did a really good job of framing the discussion.

795
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: So thank you so much. Okay, very good. So I

796
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: hope now you know why we are why we're doing it,

797
00:46:50,040 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: definitely more than before. Thanks. That was great. Thank so.

798
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: I found that conversation very very interesting, And one thing

799
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: that I did appreciate was Ben was framing of a

800
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 1: lot of these issues or debates not as technological problems,

801
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: but as political problems or political issues that need to

802
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: be decided by governments. Yes, I think to me that

803
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 1: was like the big takeaway too. So there's obviously the

804
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: technological side that's interesting. There are some exciting things that

805
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: can theoretically follow from the technological innovations, whether it's advances

806
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: and payments, the ability for people to engage in finance

807
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: outside of just um sort of interface with commercial banks.

808
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: But it does feel like these are all sort of

809
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: the big questions are still have to be fought over politically,

810
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: how any country actually wants to set these up, and

811
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: the parameters of digital currency. Yeah, and I think that's

812
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 1: another thing that came through from the conversation, the idea

813
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: that not every cb d C is going to look

814
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: the same, and countries might have different things or different

815
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: problems that they're actually looking to solve when they issue

816
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: these and for instance, you brought up the discussion about privacy.

817
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: There might be certain countries in the world, you know,

818
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, the Cayman Islands, Bermuda, places like that

819
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: where anonymity of central bank digital money could work and

820
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: could even be valued. Um, but that might not not

821
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 1: necessarily be the case in other parts of the world. Yeah,

822
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is the question of anonymity

823
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: is super important because look, that is a really important

824
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: aspect of cash, right, Like people like cash for that reason,

825
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 1: but cash is going away. It's being used less and

826
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: less because a you know, we have our phones and

827
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of sort of digital money infrastructure out

828
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: in the wild, but also just on the internet, there

829
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: is no way to spend cash. And so the question

830
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 1: is if there's a if we if we transport sort

831
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: of the concept of cash to the internet and such

832
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 1: that I can pay you for something directly without us

833
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: having to use a commercial bank, do I get to

834
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: keep what is a pretty fundamental characteristic of cash, which

835
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: is that privacy? And if not, I think that's like

836
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 1: a potentially sort of a loss and a worrisome thing

837
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: for sort of civil liberties and rights. If that goes away.

838
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: You know, one thing that never ceases to amaze me,

839
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about during that conversation is just

840
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 1: how many different types of money there actually are. And

841
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 1: people say money, but of course, yeah, you know, there's

842
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: so many variations. There's the sort of commercial back end

843
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 1: money that been always talking about a lot um, there's

844
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: obviously cash, and I don't know, like, I don't know

845
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say, but it's it's just remarkable.

846
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: You know. What I think is what I always think

847
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: about is interesting, is that like when people think of money,

848
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,240
Speaker 1: like when they think of like a dollar or a euro,

849
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 1: I think the first thing that usually comes to mind

850
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 1: is the physical version. But I realized what I've like

851
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: sort of like come to appreciate over the years is

852
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: the physical version is like the weird freak show thing

853
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,399
Speaker 1: that doesn't really fit into anything else, so we tend

854
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: to they're not the same. And you know, like the

855
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: physical money, the cash that we have like in our pocket,

856
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 1: that's like this like narrow slice of the money system.

857
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: It doesn't even really make sense. Most money is credit,

858
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: but it's not it's the direct liability of the central bank.

859
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: But that's also strange, because what does it mean to

860
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,919
Speaker 1: be a liability all the other forms of money, whether

861
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: it's the money that I have in bank, whether it's

862
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 1: the money that I have in penmo, whether it's the

863
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: money that banks have held at the central bank at

864
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: the foot of reserve, that all sort of like fits

865
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Speaker 1: into like this sort of like nice sort of like

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00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: framework of like credit money that is essentially the core

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00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: of the system. And so the money that most people

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00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: think of is like the weird exception and not the

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00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: rule at all. Yeah, I think when you think about

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00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: it that way, the discussions around cd DC make a

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00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: lot more sense, like why central banks would be trying

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00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: to solve the problem basically of cash being such a

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00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: weird thing and serving such a unique role, a unique

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00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: all be a changing role in society, you know. The

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00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: The other thing is, like we talked about privacy. I mean,

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00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: there are some people who are like really see the

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00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: privacy aspects of cash to be a super negative. I mean, like, uh,

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00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 1: who is it that um can rogue off? I mean

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00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: he wrote a book basically about how awful cash is,

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00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: how it facilitates crime and tax evasion and corruption other

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00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: and stuff. So while there are some people who are like, okay,

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00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: online digital currencies may solve the problem of anonymous payments

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00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 1: on the internet in the world without cash. Other people

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00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: will say, like, this is really exciting because we can

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00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: get rid of cash and then there's no more anonymous

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00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: payments anymore than we can go against all these ills

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00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: like drug dealing and money laundering and stuff like that.

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00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: So some people see this as a huge opportunity to

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00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: fix what they see is one of the major flaws

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00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: of money right now. I mean. Other people argue also

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00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: that there are less harmful forms of digital cash already

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00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: in existence, such as gift cards issued by Visa and

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00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: MasterCard things like that. Um, okay. Well, clearly there's a

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00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: lot to unpack when it comes to the very nature

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Speaker 1: of money, and we will of course keep talking about

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00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: it on All Thoughts. It's a perennial favorite of ours.

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00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: But for now, should we leave it there? Let's save

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Speaker 1: it there. This has been another episode of the All

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Speaker 1: Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on

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00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: Twitter at tre See All the Way, and I'm Joe

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00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: Wisn't Though. You can follow me at the Stalwart and

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00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 1: follow our guest Benay on Twitter he's at B Currey.

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00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: Follow our producer Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlton.

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00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: Follow the Bloomberg had of a podcast francesco Leavi at

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00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 1: Francesca Today, and check out all of our podcasts under

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00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 1: the handle at podcast Thanks for listening.