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Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Barraitune Day Thurston and this is how to

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Speaker 1: citizen with Baritune Day in season two. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: the money, because, to be real, it is hard to

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Speaker 1: citizen when we can barely pay the bills. We've been

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Speaker 1: on this journey finding ways to make our economy work

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Speaker 1: for the people and allow us to do this thing

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Speaker 1: that we call citizen in showing up for each other,

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Speaker 1: knowing our power, building a sistant that works for the

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Speaker 1: many and not just the few. And we've talked about

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Speaker 1: a lot of new models of company ownership, of worker organizing,

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Speaker 1: of even publicly owned broadband networks to make that economy

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Speaker 1: that strengthens our democracy. There's one thing we haven't spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time on. What if we just gave

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Speaker 1: people money, Like seriously, just gave people money. That's it,

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Speaker 1: no strings attached, no complications, Just give people money. And

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Speaker 1: we do it all the time. When those people are

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Speaker 1: very wealthy or exist in the form of corporation, we

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Speaker 1: call them subsidies, we call them tax abatements. But when

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Speaker 1: it comes to the individual human being just getting cash

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Speaker 1: from the government. In the United States of America, we

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Speaker 1: don't even give out healthcare to individual human beings without

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Speaker 1: all kinds of strings attached. So straight up money that

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Speaker 1: seems like a hard sell in this very selfish economy.

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Speaker 1: This idea got a little more attention thanks to brother

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Speaker 1: Andrew Yang. Now the first time you heard about me

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Speaker 1: in this campaign, you heard something like this. There's an

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Speaker 1: Asian man running for president who wants to give everyone

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Speaker 1: one thousand dollars a month. Remember that, Philadelphia, Oh, I

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Speaker 1: miss Andrew. I missed his entertaining contributions to the debate stage,

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Speaker 1: and I'm grateful for him elevating the idea of just

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Speaker 1: giving people money. Thank you, Andrew Yang for your service.

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Speaker 1: And some of us may have been aware of pilot

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Speaker 1: programs in various cities or counties across the nation, But

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Speaker 1: the biggest trial for this idea of giving people money

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Speaker 1: came thanks to covid as for those stimulus payments they're

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Speaker 1: expected to head out in the coming weeks, providing much

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Speaker 1: needed relief to tens of millions of eligible Americans. And

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Speaker 1: the money can't come soon enough. People learning seventy five

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Speaker 1: dollars a year or less, we'll get twelve stimulus payments

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Speaker 1: for tens of millions of eligible Americans after one hundred

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Speaker 1: days of rescuing, Renewal America is ready for a takeoff.

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Speaker 1: In my view, stimulus checks stimulus money, straight up cash

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Speaker 1: that we got to use, however we chose to do so. Yes,

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Speaker 1: stimmy repaid a person alone and then the balance for

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Speaker 1: her to dollars paid pre medication. My stimulus check helped

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Speaker 1: me to kick start a different career, and I really

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Speaker 1: appreciate it. Just more money on the kids, trying to

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Speaker 1: do some more fun things and things that I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: normally do. Honestly, I think I bought a new guitar

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Speaker 1: the third check, I chose to spend half of it

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Speaker 1: on a vacation and then the other half went into

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Speaker 1: my savings account. So the pandemic showed us it was

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Speaker 1: possible to just give people money that maybe it was

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Speaker 1: never really a crazy idea to begin with, But what

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Speaker 1: happens after the pandemic when you follow through it on

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Speaker 1: a regular basis. How do you even do that? Where

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Speaker 1: does the money come from, what will people spend it on?

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Speaker 1: Will people still work if you just give them money?

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Speaker 1: And what does this mean for this group of people

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Speaker 1: we call the working poor When they get a little

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Speaker 1: wiggle room a little breathing room, a little cash. What

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Speaker 1: does that mean for them? We've seen individuals to move

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Speaker 1: out of affordable housing. We've seen individuals going to home ownership.

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Speaker 1: We've seen individuals pay off debt. But more importantly, the

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Speaker 1: piece that we've seen that we don't talk about enough,

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Speaker 1: as we've seen Joy. My guest this week, Aisha and Yandoro,

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Speaker 1: is finding out after the break? What's up? Hi? Hi?

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Speaker 1: How are you? I'm good? Thank you for being here. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Is the co founder and

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Speaker 1: CEO of Springboard to Opportunity, an organization in Jackson, Mississippi

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Speaker 1: that connects families living in affordable housing with resources and

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Speaker 1: programs that help them advanced themselves in school and work

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Speaker 1: and in life. Well, let's start with you introducing yourself. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I am i Asha Endoro and I'm the chief executive

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Speaker 1: officer of Springboards Opportunities based in Jackson, Mississippi. Bam, it's

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Speaker 1: like you've done that ten thousand times before. So, I Usha,

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Speaker 1: where did you grow up? I'm homegrown Goodness. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in Jackson, Mississippi, and I made the decision several

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Speaker 1: years ago to move back home and to grow where

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Speaker 1: I was planted, because that was really instilled in me

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Speaker 1: that you go off, you do college, you learn, you

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Speaker 1: do all the things, but when it's really time to

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Speaker 1: get to the getting of doing the work, you go

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Speaker 1: home and you do the work that's necessary. You knew

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Speaker 1: you had to come back to Mississippi. Oh God, your

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Speaker 1: Mississippi is a beautiful place. You know. I have a

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Speaker 1: love love relationship with this place. You know, My Mississippi

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Speaker 1: is very different than the narrative that sometime told about

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Speaker 1: Mississippi and not just sometimes sold. The narrative that unfortunately

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Speaker 1: it's a out of our history in Mississippi, which is

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Speaker 1: our gym crow laws. In that history. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: problematic from those who are on the outside looking in.

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Speaker 1: But mine Mississippi is a place where joys and abundance.

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Speaker 1: Even in the midst of some of our darkest days. Um,

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Speaker 1: you still can find a fish fry in a space

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Speaker 1: game and people laughing. Do you remember the moment that

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Speaker 1: inspired you to get into community psychology. I always knew

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to do community programming and support and

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Speaker 1: organizing just about virtue of who my family, UM is. So,

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Speaker 1: my grandmother was a veteran of the civil rights movement.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I really grew up at her feet

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Speaker 1: and at the feet of her friends. That's listening to

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Speaker 1: them really talk about how you work in community and

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Speaker 1: how you respect people, and what dignity looks like, and

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Speaker 1: how you don't do anything for a community without the community.

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Speaker 1: And so it's being very very clear, um about that

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Speaker 1: reality at a very early age. And I remember my

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Speaker 1: first year in graduate school, we were sitting around a

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Speaker 1: table and everybody was talking about what they wanted to

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Speaker 1: be when they grow up in their you know, hopeful

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Speaker 1: career trajectory, and all of my colleagues wanted to go

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Speaker 1: into academia and have a tenured career in all of that.

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Speaker 1: And I was very clear, it's like, you know, I

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Speaker 1: want to run a nonprofit. And my professor said to me, well,

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Speaker 1: you don't need a doctorate to run a nonprofit. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, not to do it at the

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Speaker 1: level in which I want to do it being a

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Speaker 1: black woman, Yes, I do, because y'all learned ready Yet

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Speaker 1: in this country you said they weren't ready. What were

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Speaker 1: they not ready for? Oh, they weren't ready for a

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Speaker 1: black woman from Mississippi with plans to take over the

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Speaker 1: world and change systems and narratives and ideas, and how

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Speaker 1: we view poverty and how we talk about poverty, and

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Speaker 1: how we talk about poor black women, and how we

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Speaker 1: are going to really center the needs of poor black

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Speaker 1: women into our conversations about change in equity. They weren't

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Speaker 1: ready for all of that, and you know, I wasn't

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Speaker 1: ready for that either, But all of the work in

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Speaker 1: the past has prepared me for the moment. Now. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get into that. We're gonna get into that,

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Speaker 1: But first I want you to take me back to

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Speaker 1: the moment that you finished your schooling. Where did you go?

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Speaker 1: How did you start doing this work? Oh, it's like

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Speaker 1: a magical carpet ride of stuff I've not thought about

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Speaker 1: in the years. Um after leaving academia, I work in

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Speaker 1: philanthropy because I was still under the impression that philanthropy

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Speaker 1: was how you solved all the problems in the world.

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Speaker 1: And I quickly learned that it's not really how you

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Speaker 1: solve all the problems in the world, and then sometimes

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Speaker 1: it creates more problems. But not only that. For me,

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Speaker 1: I did not like how I showed up as a philanthropist.

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Speaker 1: The power dynamic of what they looked like at the time,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't mature enough to have that responsibility. What is

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Speaker 1: that power dynamic that you felt? So for me, the

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Speaker 1: power dynamic was, you know, I have this thing that

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Speaker 1: you want, which is money, UM, and you have to

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Speaker 1: show up and perform a certain way in order to

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Speaker 1: get the money point blank period, dance for your suffer, sing, dance, jingle,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. UM. You know, I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: throw the entire sector under the bus. But with my

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Speaker 1: self awareness, UM, I recognized that I was just not

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Speaker 1: mature enough to deal with that and I needed to

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Speaker 1: do something different. How did you first learn about Springboard

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Speaker 1: to Opportunities and when did you start working there? I

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Speaker 1: have to start Springboard to Opportunities. It wasn't a thing

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Speaker 1: before me. So you are the founder and the CEO.

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Speaker 1: So that's the thing. I never caught myself the founder

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Speaker 1: of Springboard because there were so many others involved. And

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Speaker 1: how it all came to be the way all of

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Speaker 1: this happened. It is years ago. I was on the

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Speaker 1: board of the Women's Foundation here in Mississippi and this

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Speaker 1: house developer who was not from Mississippi but had some

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Speaker 1: properties and communities in Mississippi and was trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to do something in there. Cane and spoke

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Speaker 1: to the board about what it was that he felt

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Speaker 1: was necessary. So he and I had a conversation. But

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Speaker 1: I told him, I was like, you know, I'm intrigued

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Speaker 1: about what it is that you're trying to do to

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Speaker 1: provide different services for families and affordable housing. I was like,

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Speaker 1: but you don't know what you're doing. And he was like, hmm,

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Speaker 1: maybe you're right, Maybe you should come help me figure

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Speaker 1: out what I'm doing. And I was like, h I

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Speaker 1: am now intrigued. In my family that I was crazy

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Speaker 1: because my oldest son was a baby at the time,

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Speaker 1: and they were like, you're going to leave your good

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Speaker 1: job to go start a thing that may not be

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Speaker 1: a thing you don't really know what it is. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know, I'm going to leave my

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Speaker 1: good job to stuff I don't fake and trust this opportunity.

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Speaker 1: And so before we started Springboard, I spent months talking

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Speaker 1: to neds in affordable housing about what their dreams were,

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Speaker 1: their needs, their challenges to um really trying to learn

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Speaker 1: directly from them, and about eight months until the learning

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Speaker 1: we realize that for families that live in extreme poverty,

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Speaker 1: there was not an organization actually centering their needs into

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Speaker 1: the conversations. So define briefly for me the mission of

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Speaker 1: Springboard to opportunity. Yeah, Springboard provides programs and services for

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Speaker 1: families that lift and federally subsidized affordable housing to help

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Speaker 1: them advance in life, school, and work. And how does

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Speaker 1: Springboard do this? So many ways? Um, we are a

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Speaker 1: resident service provider. We take a holistic approach to our

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Speaker 1: programs and services, so we do everything from after school programs,

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Speaker 1: We have food pantries on site, we do cash disperseness,

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Speaker 1: emergency cash disperseness, we have guaranteed and Um, who are

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Speaker 1: the families that you serve in the community. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: majority of the families that we serve our black moms

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Speaker 1: and their kids. About ninety eight percent of our population

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Speaker 1: are single, not married mothers living in extreme poverty. So

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Speaker 1: all of our families make less than twelve thousand dollars annually.

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Speaker 1: The majority of our families do work, but they live

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Speaker 1: in a state where are federal minimum wage is still

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Speaker 1: seven dollars and twenty five cents an hour, So you know,

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Speaker 1: you can work a full time job, but at that

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Speaker 1: wage you are still living in extreme poverty. You said

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Speaker 1: it was it was important to center the needs of

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Speaker 1: the community. What is the opposite of that what we

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Speaker 1: have now? It is this top down approach to policy

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Speaker 1: that really is not reflective of the realities of what

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Speaker 1: it means to live in poverty in this country. It

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Speaker 1: is programs and designs that have all of these stipulations,

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Speaker 1: impunitive aspects, um that really take away the dignity of

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Speaker 1: individuals who are needing a lot of the support in

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Speaker 1: order to not just sustain themselves, but to sustain their families.

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Speaker 1: And so it was all of these consequences to your

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Speaker 1: behavior or all of these people telling you what you

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Speaker 1: had to do, what you had not to do, but

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Speaker 1: there was never anyone saying, you know, what are you

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Speaker 1: dreaming about? What are you hoping for? How can we

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Speaker 1: support you and getting to those hopes and those dreams.

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Speaker 1: And so when we realized that, um, it was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we have to start an organization because no one is

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Speaker 1: doing what it is that we are saying. It's purposely

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Speaker 1: needed to in the cycle of generational poverty, which is

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Speaker 1: the center the needs of families. So and That's why,

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Speaker 1: you know, we say that we are radically resident driven

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Speaker 1: because every program, every service, everything that we do as

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Speaker 1: an organization, we only do it if our families say

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Speaker 1: is what they need to be successful in life, school,

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Speaker 1: and work. Radical and simple to ask people what they need?

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Speaker 1: I know, right, we should do it more, but our

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Speaker 1: ego doesn't allow us to do that because we want

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Speaker 1: to be included and two individual stories about their life

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Speaker 1: and their change. You know, whenever you see these movies,

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Speaker 1: there's always a hero or heroin um who was involved

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Speaker 1: and somebody's miraculous transition. So as ego mhm. So in

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Speaker 1: Springboard to Opportunities, you decided to ask families living in

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Speaker 1: poverty what they needed, what they dreamed of, what they

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Speaker 1: hoped for. And you asked these questions because no one

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Speaker 1: else was asking these questions. What were the questions others

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Speaker 1: were asking of these families? They weren't asking him anything,

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Speaker 1: So how were they interacting? What did that look like?

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Speaker 1: I am going to tell you you need X y Z.

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Speaker 1: I am going to tell you you have to do

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Speaker 1: X y Z. I am going to tell you you

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Speaker 1: need financial literacy because I believe that poor folks don't

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Speaker 1: know how to manage their money. I am going to

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Speaker 1: tell you that you need parenting classes because I believe

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Speaker 1: that poor people don't know how to parent their kids.

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Speaker 1: There's never a conversation because we truly do believe that

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Speaker 1: there is this moralism associated with poverty, where we believe

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Speaker 1: that individuals who are poor are bad people, or they're

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Speaker 1: not capable people, they're not as smart as and we

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Speaker 1: truly believe that we have to tell them what it

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Speaker 1: is that they need um in order for them to

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Speaker 1: be successful. I remember when we were starting Springboard to

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Speaker 1: Opportunities and I was talking to one of my colleagues

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Speaker 1: about what we were doing, and I was all excited.

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Speaker 1: I was like, it's gonna be so cool as we're

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Speaker 1: centering residents and we're only gonna do with the families

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Speaker 1: need and did it. I'm all jazzed up. And he

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Speaker 1: looked at me and was so well intended. He was like, well,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense, and then he started quoting

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Speaker 1: forward and he was like, you know, when Henry Ford

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Speaker 1: was doing the car fit acted people what they needed,

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Speaker 1: they would have said a faster horse. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: that's S nine. But so many people believe that um,

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Speaker 1: So many people will believe that the way that we

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Speaker 1: get to change is creating a thing, doing a thing,

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Speaker 1: and then inviting those with whom that being is designed for,

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Speaker 1: and then we get upset when they don't participate. What

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Speaker 1: stories stand out when you learn from people what they

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Speaker 1: say they need? Oh gosh, so many and it is

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Speaker 1: so heartbreaking because the needs are so small, but we

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Speaker 1: just never pause to ask needs as far as needing diapers,

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Speaker 1: needing opportunities to go back to school, needing to figure out, okay,

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Speaker 1: how do you actually get out of affordable house? And like,

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Speaker 1: I'm here, now, what's the pathway out? Because I can't

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Speaker 1: figure out the pathway out. One of the moms that

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Speaker 1: I talked to when we started Springboard with some momiting Thou,

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Speaker 1: who had lived in one of the affordable housing communities

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Speaker 1: for over thirty years. She moved there when she was three,

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Speaker 1: and of course she never thought she would end up

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Speaker 1: living there as long as she did. She always thought

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Speaker 1: that when she turned eighteen that she would move out,

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Speaker 1: and it just never happened. In I remember her saying

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Speaker 1: to me, it's like, you know, I never had my moment.

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Speaker 1: And then I realized that moments don't happen for poor people.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, and that's what ends up happening.

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Speaker 1: You have a life for folks are not allowed to

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Speaker 1: dream because so many times when they do dream, as

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Speaker 1: those dreams continued to be um snuffed out, and there

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Speaker 1: those dreams continue to be unfulfilled. It gets to a

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Speaker 1: place where it has to be a defense mechanism for

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Speaker 1: you not to dream, because how else do you continue

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Speaker 1: to survive and how else do you continue to make

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Speaker 1: it through it with We'll be right back when you

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Speaker 1: started Springboard to Opportunity. What were some of the first

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Speaker 1: programs you tried out. The very first program we did

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Speaker 1: was after school program and that was because that's what

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Speaker 1: our farms told us they needed. They said they needed

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Speaker 1: a safe place for their kids to go after school.

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Speaker 1: So we were like, okay, we're helping to do this

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Speaker 1: after school program. We're partnering with the local school. Is

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Speaker 1: going to run this many hours? Well, okay, when it's over,

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Speaker 1: if parents can't get there to get their kids, so

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Speaker 1: we need to try to do a walking school bus

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Speaker 1: and what does that look like? And we didn't need

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Speaker 1: to do any of that. The moms did it themselves,

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Speaker 1: so you know, we had moms who would call and

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Speaker 1: make sure that their neighbors kids could be picked up,

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Speaker 1: and if not, they took it upon themselves to make

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Speaker 1: sure they picked up their neighbors kids. They stelf organized

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Speaker 1: and did all of that themselves. And they didn't need

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Speaker 1: us to address the house or to address any of

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Speaker 1: the potential challenges. They just needed us to provide the thing.

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Speaker 1: And the thing was after school program, so they just

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Speaker 1: needed us to do that, and we were trying to

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Speaker 1: do everything else. Yeah, and it sounds like, you know

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Speaker 1: this lesson you've already talked about of listening to the

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Speaker 1: needs of the people you're trying to serve, taking yourself

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Speaker 1: out of it. You know, you assumed they would need

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Speaker 1: a walk in school bus. You assumed they would need X, Y,

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Speaker 1: and Z on top two filling gaps that you assumed

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Speaker 1: would exist. And they're like, no, no no, no, we said

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Speaker 1: we needed childcare. Thank you, We got the rest of

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Speaker 1: this and now get out the way. And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: thank you for freeing me up to get out the way.

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Speaker 1: You go, you know, raise this money to do other stuff. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the other stuff. I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about what is universal basic income or guaranteed

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Speaker 1: income to you, Oh, it's my favorite thing in life

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Speaker 1: right now, besides your children, I assume yeah, yeah, those too,

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Speaker 1: those babies too. Um So, universal basic income and guaranteed

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Speaker 1: income are two different things. Universal basic income it's universality

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Speaker 1: is everybody gets a check. Guaranteed income is more targeted.

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Speaker 1: Is typically designed to um support the needs of those

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Speaker 1: who have been most marginalized or those who have the

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Speaker 1: largest needs. Um And it's cash without restrictions that is

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Speaker 1: turn limited and it's very specific to a specific population.

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Speaker 1: What are you working with right now? Guaranteed income? So

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Speaker 1: Macmillian Mothers Trust as the first and only guaranteed income

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Speaker 1: project in this country that takes a racial and gender

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Speaker 1: equity approach to our conversations about wealth and equities. It

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Speaker 1: provides a thousand dollars a month, twelve months and no

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Speaker 1: strings attached, extremely low income black mother's. Where does that

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Speaker 1: name come from? First of all, so that name comes

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Speaker 1: from a couple of places. So magnolia is the Mississippi

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Speaker 1: state flower, but it was also my grandmother's savorite flower.

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Speaker 1: So and not to my maternal grandmother and the mother's

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Speaker 1: mothers who we work with, and trust. For us, it

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Speaker 1: really is about trusting our moms to know whenness that

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Speaker 1: they needs was the Magnolia Mother's Trust. And I was

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Speaker 1: laughing earlier because she was like, I'm sure you love it, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know your kids more. And I was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like my third baby, because I started

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Speaker 1: thinking about the Magnolian Mother's Trust when I was pregnant

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Speaker 1: with my second child, and the entire design and finality

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Speaker 1: of the program I did when I was on maternity leave.

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Speaker 1: So my son and I we would be would be

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Speaker 1: bench watching Game of Thrones while he was sleeping and

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Speaker 1: typing up the model at the program design from Magnolian

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Speaker 1: Mother's Trust. When was your third child born? The Magnolia

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Speaker 1: Mother's Druss two thousand and eighteen UM. So we started

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Speaker 1: thinking about the work in two thousand and seventeen and

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Speaker 1: we launched the first pilot December with twenty mothers, twenty

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Speaker 1: black mothers receiving a thousand dollars a month for twelve months,

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Speaker 1: no strings attached, and what happens at the end of

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Speaker 1: the twelve months in your experience so far as you've

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Speaker 1: been through this a few times, the magic um that

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Speaker 1: has continued to unfold and manifest has just been amazing.

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Speaker 1: We've seen individuals move out of before the housing. We've

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Speaker 1: seen individuals going to home ownership. We've seen individuals pay

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Speaker 1: off debt, have savings. We've seen moms saved that for

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Speaker 1: the first time they actually feel like a good mom

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Speaker 1: because they can now provide another once for their kids,

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Speaker 1: not just addressing the needs. They're able to put plans

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Speaker 1: in place for the future, but more importantly, the piece

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Speaker 1: that we've seen that we don't talk about enough. As

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Speaker 1: we've seen joy, We've seen women be able to show

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Speaker 1: up and have the bandwidth to not constantly level the

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Speaker 1: scarcity mindset that they can actually plan for themselves in

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Speaker 1: the future. And so individuals are able to show up

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Speaker 1: differently in their lives, which means that they're able to

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Speaker 1: show up differently for their families, which means that they

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Speaker 1: now have the bandwidth to participate in p t A

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Speaker 1: or city council meetings, that they now can have the

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Speaker 1: ability to think about, Okay, what does it mean to

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Speaker 1: be a community advocate for the first time and what

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Speaker 1: does it mean to use my voice? Can you share

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Speaker 1: any of these stories of joy from your program? Participants

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Speaker 1: that stand out to you. Oh yeah, definitely. I remember

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Speaker 1: one of our mom's called me and she was so

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Speaker 1: happy and happy. It was not one of the adjectives

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Speaker 1: that I would use to describe her. And she talked

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Speaker 1: about how she was happy because for the first time

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Speaker 1: she had hope and she could actually think about what

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Speaker 1: she wanted. She could see a path for herself outside

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Speaker 1: of affordable housing. She had not worked for years because

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Speaker 1: she felt stuck, and you know, over the course of

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Speaker 1: her year getting guaranteed income, she went and got a job,

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Speaker 1: and she got a job because she said, for the

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Speaker 1: first time she could see a pathway forward and that

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Speaker 1: pathway forward made her hopeful. So that's one of our moms.

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Speaker 1: One of our moms went doing the pandemic and became

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Speaker 1: a paramedic. She was like, I always wanted to be

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Speaker 1: a paramedic. They need paramedics now. I'm like, yes, they

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00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: do need paramedics now, and so they're all of those things. Um.

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Speaker 1: One of our mom's, Tunisia, used to always talk about

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Speaker 1: wanting a house with a garage because she just wanted

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Speaker 1: to be able to pull her truck of in her

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Speaker 1: garage and nobody knew she was at home if she

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be bothered, and so she got her

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Speaker 1: house with a garage so no one would know she

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Speaker 1: was at home. So, you know, just different ways in

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Speaker 1: which they are able to live out loud some of

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Speaker 1: their dreams that they possibly have put on a shell.

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Speaker 1: You sound so full of joy recalling their stories of joy.

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Speaker 1: How they make me so happy because it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's so simple. Oh my gosh, it's so simple. Um,

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Speaker 1: but we complicated so much, so it does it makes me.

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Speaker 1: It makes me really happy that we have been able

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Speaker 1: to not just leave the work for our families so

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Speaker 1: but then also to be engaged in some of the

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Speaker 1: national conversations about the importance of cash and about you know,

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Speaker 1: yes we can trust poor people, Yes we can trust

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Speaker 1: poor black mothers. Does guaranteed income in hindsight feel obvious

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Speaker 1: to you? Oh God, yes, Jess, yeah, yeah. Just giving

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Speaker 1: people money, yes, in hindsight, is sol so obvious in hindsight.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, why haven't we been to us forever? When

430
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: my mom's first started talking to me about needing money

431
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: in two thousand and seventeen, and a lot of their

432
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: challenges were connected to the lack of access of cash.

433
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: It put me down this rabbit hole of research where

434
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, how do you go about getting

435
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: people money? Because I have not heard universal basic income

436
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: prior to the conversations with my mom's that are prior

437
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: to trying to figure out how to address that need.

438
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: And so when I first discovered universal basic income, off like,

439
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: this is so simple, Yes, we should do this, let's

440
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: go do it. And I was naive and not realizing

441
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: how should we complicated? It was to just give people money?

442
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: Why is it complicated? Oh gosh, Oh, it's complicated because

443
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: of us. Um, it's complicated because of us. Unfortunately, we

444
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: just our moralism as it relates to poverty has set

445
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: us up so where we don't trust poor people. Um.

446
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: We really have told ourselves these stories in this narrative

447
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: that people are poor because they want to be poor.

448
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: We have not looked at or examined the systems that

449
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: make it virtually impossible for individuals to um move up

450
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: the economic ladder if they are poor. We have not

451
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 1: had conversations about how our social safety that is punitive.

452
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: Whenever your income increases, your benefits automatically decrease. You are

453
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: constantly having to prove that you're poor enough to need support.

454
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: And I think that that is intentionally designed that way

455
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: in order to keep people in their place, keeping you

456
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: from wanting anything more, keeping you or I'm having hopes

457
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: and dreams about the future. Um. And so we don't

458
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: have those conversations. We just say that, oh, you know,

459
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: individuals don't want to work more, or they you know,

460
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: should work harder, or they should work better jobs. How

461
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: are you supposed to work harder if you already have

462
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: three jobs? How are you supposed to get a better

463
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: job when in this country we are continuously pricing people

464
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: out of higher education. How are you supposed to make

465
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: better way? Just when we're paying people seven dollars and

466
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: twenty five cents an hour. Still, so we don't examine

467
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: our role in these feeds. We just pushed these realities

468
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: and tell our sex these and narratives that the fault

469
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: are of the individuals who necessarily of experience. So that's

470
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: why it's hard. That's the one reason why it's hard.

471
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: And then the other reason why it's hard, um is

472
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: when we started doing this work into the outhan and eighteen,

473
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: you know, it was not sexy. Folks were like, oh,

474
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: my god, you are going to give black woman money? What?

475
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, why not? Well, how are

476
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: you gonna make sure they don't have more babies? And

477
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: how are you gonna make sure folks aren't using it

478
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: on drugs? And how are you going to make sure

479
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: they're not committed to their boyfriends and all of these

480
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: things where I was like, where is the data on this?

481
00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: And why are you inserting your isms into these conversations

482
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: without recognizing the possibilities. And then also it's hard. You know,

483
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: once again, I am a black woman in the South.

484
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: Um less than one percent of philanthropy rolls through the South.

485
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: Of that one percent, less than one percent goes to

486
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,719
Speaker 1: organizations that are led by women of color. Were of

487
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: the one percent, how do you feel it depends on

488
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: the day of a week. Yeah, it depends on the

489
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: day of a week. You know, now that this pandemic

490
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: has happened, we're having a lot more conversations about equity,

491
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: and we're seeing that life for individuals are a lot

492
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: more precarious and a lot of us would have liked

493
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: to realize and a lot of us want to have

494
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: honest conversations about so a lot of the pieces that myself,

495
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: to my colleagues and other friends have been talking about

496
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: for years as it relates to how precarious our social

497
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: safety net us. A lot of folks are actually now

498
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: seeing that. So in this moment that you know, I'm like, oh,

499
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: I feel pretty good because we have been doing this

500
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: thing for years that now other individuals are trying to

501
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: do and can learn from and those pieces. But at

502
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: the same time, I'm sad and I'm exhausted. It took

503
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: for a pandemic for us to get to the place

504
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: where we could have conversations about giving people money without restrictions. UM.

505
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: I am sad and exhausted that in building the work

506
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 1: of the Magnolian Mother's Trust, the amount of truly racist

507
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: conversations that I had to have in order to build

508
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: the case for the women that I work with, UM

509
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: was some of the hardest work I've ever done. I

510
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: don't know if I could do it again. I have

511
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: to think about protecting my mental health because I do

512
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: have babies that I have to take care of, and

513
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: so I don't know if that's something that I could

514
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: do again. Because it got to the place where it

515
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: was constantly A cost benefit analysis of how much racism

516
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: and sexism am I willing to put up with today

517
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: in doing this work? Yeah? I don't want to re

518
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: traumatize you, So feel free to tap out on this.

519
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: But if you're able and willing, can you give me

520
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: a flavor of that racist and or sexist conversation that

521
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: you were subject to. It's not that's the thing. It's

522
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: not one. It wasn't one conversation. Um, it was multiple

523
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: conversations with various thunders about what it was that we

524
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: were trying to do and what it was that we

525
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: were trying to build. I think if it had been

526
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: one conversation that would have been like, all right, you

527
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: know it's not okay, but you know we could figure

528
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: that out. But it was the constant reminder of how

529
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: black women are truly viewed in this country. So you

530
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: show up Magnolia, mother's trust is in the building, pay

531
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: me so we can pay these women. And in the

532
00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: response is it's two conversations. So it's the rest bonds

533
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: pre COVID and a response post COVID pre COVID. Uh,

534
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: we can't do that. You can't just give people money.

535
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: What's the program, what's the thing? It's in a fellowship.

536
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: It's the respectability politics. How are you going to police

537
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: these individuals in this money? You know? Are you going

538
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: to tell them what to do? Are you making them

539
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: do financial literacy? Are you making them show your receipts?

540
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: So you know, it was all of those things. And

541
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: so that was pre COVID conversations. Now post COVID, and

542
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: everyone is having conversations about guaranteed and come in the

543
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: simplicity of giving people cash and the fact that we

544
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: need cash. Um. And now I show up and it's like, hey, magnolian,

545
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: mother's trust us in the building, and it's like, let

546
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: us give you all this manner from heaven. We're gonna

547
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: liberate the capital. And I'm like, you know what, I'm

548
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: going to take your liberated capital. Thank you very much

549
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: because you now recognize that people need money. And I

550
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: have a whole program in which you can give people money.

551
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: So let's do it. And so so the money that's

552
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: on the other side of the checks, the monthly checks,

553
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: is that coming from foundations, Is it coming from wealthy individuals?

554
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: Is it coming from corporations? Like where's the pile of

555
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: money coming from wealthy individuals? For the most part, But

556
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: the question is, I don't even know if I wanted

557
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: to be sustained. I don't feel like guaranteed income in

558
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: the way anyone is doing it. It's something that can

559
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: be sustained by philanthropy in and of itself. I really

560
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: do think that philanthropies role in all of us who

561
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: are doing this work. I think our role is to

562
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: get enough data out there and I have enough conversations

563
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: about the importance of cash so that we can push

564
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: federal policies. UM. So that's what I feel like. Guaranteed

565
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: income and philanthropy. That's really the bigger ecosystem of how

566
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: all of this is supposed to work. So what do

567
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: you see as the future of the Magnolia Mother's Trust

568
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: and this guaranteed income program? I see a couple of

569
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: different things. So we are currently in our third year

570
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: of the work. We just launched the next cohort. We

571
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: now in effect have supported two hundred and thirty families

572
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 1: with the guaranteed income. I know, we started from the bottom.

573
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: Now we're here, so we're excited about that. We are

574
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: also providing children savings accounts for the moms because we're

575
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: supporting the whole family. We're also excited about quite frankly,

576
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: this work that we're going to as it relates to

577
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: really narrative and the conversations that we tell ourselves about

578
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: poverty and who we center in those conversations. Um, we

579
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: have been saying that we're going to change the narrative

580
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: by changing the narrator, so we are really supporting our

581
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: moms and becoming storytellers and providing them the resources and

582
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: the support that they need to tell their own stories.

583
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: I feel that it's really time for us to begin

584
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: to see the mom's more. I think that's important as

585
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: we talk about policy, because the only way that we're

586
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: going to change these policy so it is if we

587
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: change hearts, and the only way we do that is

588
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,280
Speaker 1: by making sure that we actually all know each other. Yeah,

589
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: if we had widespread adoption of a universal basic income

590
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: for everybody, or widespread adoption of guaranteed incomes on a

591
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:25,439
Speaker 1: national scale, what do you think that would look like? Gosh,

592
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: I think if we had adoption of a widespread guaranteed

593
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: income on a national scale, I think that that will

594
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 1: look like us finally eradicating poverty. I think that would

595
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: look like us having healthier families. I think that would

596
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 1: look like us having healthier kids. I think that would

597
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: look like us finally looking like the greatest nation in

598
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: the world. I think that would change the trajectory of

599
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: our future, not just for some before, an entire country.

600
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: That's all. I think that's enough that we can if

601
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: we can, as we get saide of poverty. You know,

602
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: we've been working at them for years. So if we

603
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: can stive that one. Oh my goodness, thank you, thank you,

604
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: thank you. This has been inspiring, revealing and such a

605
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: good use of time. Thank you so much. Thank you.

606
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: That's a whole lot You've You've brought a whole lot.

607
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: I'm really am grateful. Thank you so much. MH. So,

608
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: what happens when you give people money? For folks in

609
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: the pandemic those stimulus checks, man catching up on rent payments,

610
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: fixing cars, buying groceries for your family, signing up for

611
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 1: an online class. We're donating to organizations you care about,

612
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: maybe even a opting a pet to make that quarantine

613
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: life a little less quarantine. For the members of the

614
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: Magnolia Mother's Trust. It could mean all of those things,

615
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: but what it also meant has given people a chance

616
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: to dream, the space to dream that is worth so

617
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: much when you think about who has the resources, the time,

618
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: and the privilege to dream up something different than what

619
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: they are living. That's the privilege reserved for those of

620
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: certain means, and it's a privilege that could and should

621
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: be extended through programs like guaranteed income or just giving

622
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: people money. Because we see the word citizen as a

623
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: verb that involves doing things. So here's our ducer, Stephanie,

624
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: with some things you can do. Consider the commonly told

625
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: stories you've heard about poverty in America, stories like poor

626
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: people are poor because of bad choices, poor folks aren't educated,

627
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 1: and never gives bare change to a homeless person because

628
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: they'll use it on drugs. Now flip those stories. Think

629
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: about the systems at play that keep people poor, things

630
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: like doctor prescribed opioids, redlining, and social welfare programs with

631
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 1: unrealistic thresholds. Who's benefiting from these misleading narratives? Next, look

632
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: into other models. Universal basic income and guaranteed income have

633
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: both been tested in a few different countries, regions, cities,

634
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: and towns, So do some reading and find out what

635
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: the economists say about these programs. Will link to some

636
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: articles you can read in the show notes, including findings

637
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: from the most recent UBI experiment in Stockton, California, and

638
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 1: finally got some capital you're looking to liberate this one

639
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: is simple. Donate to Magnolia Mother's Trust. Check out springboard

640
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: too dot org to find out how. If you like

641
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 1: U b I, then consider getting involved with others through

642
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: the income movement. Again, we'll provide a link in the

643
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: show notes for ways you can get involved. If you

644
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Speaker 1: take any of these actions, please brag about yourself online

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Speaker 1: 's gonna hashtag how to Citizen and send us general

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Speaker 1: feedback or ideas for the show to comments at how

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Speaker 1: to citizen dot com. Visit how to citizen dot com

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Speaker 1: to sign up for our newsletter or learn about upcoming events.

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00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: And if you like the show, spread the word tell somebody.

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Speaker 1: If you don't, definitely just keep it to yourself. How

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Speaker 1: does Citizen with barrettone Day is a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio Podcasts and Dust Like Productions. Our executive producers

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Speaker 1: are Me barretton Day, Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart and Misha Yusuf.

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Speaker 1: Our producers are Stephanie Cohne and Ali Kilts. Kelly Prime

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Speaker 1: is our editor. Valentino Rivera is our engineer and Sam

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Speaker 1: Paulson is our Apprentice. Original music by Andrew Eapon. Special

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Speaker 1: thanks to our citizen voices for this episode, Meredith Silva,

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Speaker 1: Bernadette Bohan, Alice and Brown, Ferguson and Lana Watson. This

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Speaker 1: episode was produced and sound designed by Stephanie Cone. Special

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Speaker 1: thanks to Joel Smith from I Heart Radio