1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,520
Speaker 1: Worrying. Today's episode case spoilers for episode five of A

2
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,680
Speaker 1: Night of the Seven Kingdoms beyard. We're gonna be talking

3
00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:25,880
Speaker 1: about themes and lots of spoilers. Helloa is Jesson Zepsi

4
00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,560
Speaker 1: and I'm Rosey Night and welcome back to Extra Vision

5
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,680
Speaker 1: of the podcast where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies,

6
00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,680
Speaker 1: comics of pop culture company from my art podcast. We're

7
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:34,480
Speaker 1: bringing you three episodes a week, plus news on sidey

8
00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:35,440
Speaker 1: plus news.

9
00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,239
Speaker 2: In today's episode, we are going to be exploring the

10
00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,960
Speaker 2: themes of the absolutely stunning episode of A Night of

11
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 2: the Seven Kingdoms in the Name of the Mother. In

12
00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,000
Speaker 2: this episode, we're going to get into those right now.

13
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,839
Speaker 2: And this has been quite a discourse starter in our discord,

14
00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 2: so I'm very excited to dig in.

15
00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:01,680
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this episode. I highlight. I think it

16
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,000
Speaker 1: has one of the I think it has like among

17
00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:11,080
Speaker 1: the highest Rotten Tomatoes scores of any Game of Thrones

18
00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: series related show.

19
00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:20,320
Speaker 2: We had multiple comments, including one of our biggest discord

20
00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,000
Speaker 2: supporters and just like friends of the show, goes by

21
00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,040
Speaker 2: Playmaker was just saying like for him, and we saw

22
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:27,720
Speaker 2: a lot of other people say this in the discord

23
00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,000
Speaker 2: this was the best episode of Game of Thrones since

24
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,080
Speaker 2: season five, and I've seen that a lot like this

25
00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,800
Speaker 2: is up there for people with some of those biggest, big,

26
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,480
Speaker 2: big emotional episodes. Now, I will say was also very

27
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,360
Speaker 2: interesting that for some people in the discord who were

28
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,880
Speaker 2: book readers and stuff, it was also a little bit

29
00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,559
Speaker 2: maybe too focused on Dunk's perspective and maybe they wanted

30
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,640
Speaker 2: to see a little bit more about Lionel and stuff.

31
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 2: So it's been really interesting to see how five I

32
00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,800
Speaker 2: know that was like really specific, I know, and I'm like,

33
00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:05,440
Speaker 2: I kind of love that this is invoking that feeling again,

34
00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,680
Speaker 2: and I'm not gonna lie. I think that this is

35
00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,480
Speaker 2: also about storytelling in a narrative, long form fashion. Okay,

36
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,680
Speaker 2: we joke a lot about how this is six episodes,

37
00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,800
Speaker 2: but guess what if they hadn't done this as a

38
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,240
Speaker 2: weekly release and we hadn't got Baylor coming through the

39
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,919
Speaker 2: door saying I will stand with Dunk, I will fight

40
00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,359
Speaker 2: with Dunk. That was the moment where people started going, oh, wait,

41
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,360
Speaker 2: this feels like red wedding shit, Like this feels like,

42
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,000
Speaker 2: oh my god, I didn't mean that. So I think

43
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,440
Speaker 2: that then you have the week of anticipation and you

44
00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,200
Speaker 2: actually get that huge battle and it delivers. That is

45
00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,120
Speaker 2: the kind of thing that makes appointment television.

46
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,560
Speaker 1: I have to say, wow, season five, it's huge. I

47
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:57,120
Speaker 1: maintain obviously, perhaps I maintained that the second episode of

48
00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,919
Speaker 1: the bedraggled ethan final season of Game of Thrones, a

49
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 1: Night of the Seven Kingdoms, in which Brionn of Ptarth

50
00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,160
Speaker 1: is knighted by Jamie Lanister.

51
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 2: One of the best episodes I love about Apathy is.

52
00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,799
Speaker 1: A shocking all time episode, and it's the and it's

53
00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,720
Speaker 1: the moment right after which the whole thing kind of

54
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:22,240
Speaker 1: just slides away from us.

55
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,000
Speaker 2: Is that the episode where it's them all just hanging

56
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:25,520
Speaker 2: out and talk.

57
00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 1: We're just hanging out. It's the battle battle. They know

58
00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,120
Speaker 1: it's coming. I ever made right, they know it's coming.

59
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,480
Speaker 1: They're all just hanging out talking about like you know,

60
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,640
Speaker 1: on the that kind of like eve of the battle,

61
00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,240
Speaker 1: like excitement, trying to relax, talking about things that have happened.

62
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:50,000
Speaker 1: Of course, Jamie and Briann have this you know, incredible, tangled,

63
00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:56,000
Speaker 1: complex relationship where he probably loves her, she probably loves him.

64
00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,880
Speaker 1: She was tasked with delivering him, you know, to catlet

65
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 1: Stark saving his life, he saves her life. Oh you know,

66
00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,119
Speaker 1: like he's the first one. He's the first one. Really,

67
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,480
Speaker 1: She is the first one who he really opens up

68
00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,800
Speaker 1: up to about really how like the mad King and

69
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,039
Speaker 1: what that all really meant, and how everybody looks at

70
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,679
Speaker 1: him as this fucking terrible villain for killing the most

71
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,599
Speaker 1: evil guy that everybody agreed was the most evil guy

72
00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,080
Speaker 1: and heroic thing he's ever done. It was the most

73
00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,839
Speaker 1: heroic thing maybe that anybody has ever done. And all

74
00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,520
Speaker 1: he does is get shit for it and gets ship

75
00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,039
Speaker 1: on for it, and he acts like it doesn't matter

76
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:43,039
Speaker 1: to him and it's fine. And I'm this handsome, somewhat evil,

77
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 1: menacing guy who did that, who broke his oath and

78
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,120
Speaker 1: I don't care about it. But then that, but in

79
00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,560
Speaker 1: that season two episode in the hot tub, you realize

80
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,600
Speaker 1: how much it really has affected him. And then it

81
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 1: all pays off season eight when he knits. I think

82
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,000
Speaker 1: that's no incredible apsod.

83
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,320
Speaker 2: Look, but I think that it's easy for people to

84
00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,120
Speaker 2: be tired of Game of Thrones by say, but I

85
00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,680
Speaker 2: will say as well, guys, like this is the truth

86
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,560
Speaker 2: about Game of Thrones. It's like a bad Game of

87
00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,880
Speaker 2: Thrones episode is still better than a lot of other

88
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,120
Speaker 2: TV and I think that we do forget that, but no,

89
00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 2: I love that episode. And also I think that it's

90
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 2: actually a great example of what makes a Night of

91
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 2: the Seven Kingdom so special. That was an episode about

92
00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,040
Speaker 2: slice of life people sitting around having a conversation, the characters,

93
00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:36,040
Speaker 2: the communication, the coziness that you can feel before something

94
00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,839
Speaker 2: terrifying the community. And I think that that is actually

95
00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,719
Speaker 2: what a Night of the Seven Kingdoms does so well.

96
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,360
Speaker 2: So it doesn't surprise me at all that you think

97
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,159
Speaker 2: back to that which is such a great episode.

98
00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,760
Speaker 1: I will say as we get into our conversation about

99
00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,520
Speaker 1: the themes around this episode, I think this season of

100
00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:59,920
Speaker 1: nine of the Seven Kingdoms is amazing. I I six

101
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,880
Speaker 1: episodes is the right amount for this story, for the

102
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,960
Speaker 1: right amount of story half an hour two. I mean,

103
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,040
Speaker 1: it's a little you want. It leaves you wanting more,

104
00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,839
Speaker 1: which is nice. Here's the one thing in talking about

105
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,160
Speaker 1: that the Jamie brien are to me, the thing that

106
00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:24,160
Speaker 1: is that makes Game of Thrones feel incredible is starting

107
00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,279
Speaker 1: characters in a place and giving them the time and

108
00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:33,560
Speaker 1: space to watch them evolve to another place or find

109
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,120
Speaker 1: a way to express their true selves and change over

110
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,600
Speaker 1: the course of time. And you know, there's some new

111
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,799
Speaker 1: announcements about how long a Night of the Seven Kingdoms

112
00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,760
Speaker 1: is gonna go, and the desire to have decks out

113
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 1: there until he's an adult and gettable, we gotta we

114
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 1: got a boyhood of you. We gotta get this heroe.

115
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,159
Speaker 1: So I'm eager to watch that happen. But I hope

116
00:06:58,160 --> 00:06:59,599
Speaker 1: that that remains a thing.

117
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,840
Speaker 2: I agree because I think it's I think you're right,

118
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,640
Speaker 2: Jason White. The word we all use when we talk

119
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,159
Speaker 2: about Game of Thrones is epic, But that's because we

120
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,920
Speaker 2: stayed with these characters as they grew up, as they age. Also,

121
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,040
Speaker 2: that was that middle era of TV where we started

122
00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,640
Speaker 2: to transition from a season a year to a season

123
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 2: every two years because Game of Thrones was costing so

124
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 2: much money. And it's interesting because I was writing, I

125
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,600
Speaker 2: was working on a really fun pitch with our friend Jordan,

126
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,880
Speaker 2: who we've had on the show before, who's great, and

127
00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 2: we were working on it, and so I was looking

128
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,280
Speaker 2: up Charlie's Angels. It has a lot of stuff about

129
00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,800
Speaker 2: action in American history, and I was looking up Charlie's

130
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,000
Speaker 2: Angels and I was like, dude, they had three shows

131
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,520
Speaker 2: of that that three seasons of that show came out

132
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,200
Speaker 2: within like two and a half years. And it's the

133
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,000
Speaker 2: same with the original Batman sixty six. There's three seasons,

134
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,000
Speaker 2: but the final season's coming out in sixty eight. Like

135
00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,520
Speaker 2: it's the way we've made TV has changed so exponentially,

136
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 2: and I want A Night of the Seven Kingdoms to

137
00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,880
Speaker 2: be able to be a show like Game of Thrones, Like, hey,

138
00:07:57,920 --> 00:07:59,520
Speaker 2: I'm going to bring it up as my favorite fucking

139
00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,280
Speaker 2: river bitch like Dash, you had twenty three episodes a season.

140
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,320
Speaker 2: That's why Cheryl was able to become a witch. That's

141
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,880
Speaker 2: why they had to carry musical episode Like that is

142
00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 2: a reason that we get length. You can put cool,

143
00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,440
Speaker 2: weird shit, quiet moments. I would love, after the success

144
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,160
Speaker 2: of season one of An the Seven Kingdoms to see

145
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:26,400
Speaker 2: season two become a ten episode show. Maybe season eight.

146
00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:27,920
Speaker 1: Do you think Baby Steps get eight?

147
00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? Even eight and then ten for season three maybe

148
00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:31,960
Speaker 2: or something maybe.

149
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,920
Speaker 1: I would love. I would love to see that and

150
00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,359
Speaker 1: the later stories do get meteor. I mean, there's there's

151
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,960
Speaker 1: other threads that they can pull on, and it seems

152
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,120
Speaker 1: like there's a willingness to go as far as summer Haul,

153
00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 1: which is crazy, so you know, I think I would

154
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 1: love to see that, but we'll see. You know, this

155
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 1: has been so far a perfect amount of story in

156
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,640
Speaker 1: just just enough container.

157
00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,760
Speaker 2: Let's see how we feel post the finale as well.

158
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,280
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's gonna be great. I'm really excited, but

159
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,800
Speaker 2: also like, that's a lot to land emotionally. It's off

160
00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,200
Speaker 2: to the heft of the lost episode and what it

161
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,720
Speaker 2: kind of tells us and why it changes from the book,

162
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,040
Speaker 2: about the way that duncans Ala Matt and stuff like that.

163
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,160
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about this the theme of this episode.

164
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,840
Speaker 1: The theme of this episode is debts do what do

165
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,600
Speaker 1: our characters owe? What do they owe to each other?

166
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,240
Speaker 1: What do they owe to the community, What are they

167
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,720
Speaker 1: owe to the realm? What do they owe to truth?

168
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,280
Speaker 1: And this is an episode in which pretty much all

169
00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,000
Speaker 1: those debts get paid off. Let's start the trial and

170
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 1: Daylord's speech. We open with Baylor giving that last second

171
00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,319
Speaker 1: coaches speech instructions on what to do, and the trial

172
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,240
Speaker 1: itself is interesting, both the trial of seven and the

173
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,319
Speaker 1: idea of trial by combat in the realm, because this

174
00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,439
Speaker 1: is a world in which the king is basically the

175
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,839
Speaker 1: final arbiter on everything. Like there's no private property. It's

176
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,160
Speaker 1: all held by the king, and he's basically letting you

177
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,280
Speaker 1: borrow it for a period, you know, for as long

178
00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,760
Speaker 1: as you stay with it as good graces, you know,

179
00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,000
Speaker 1: like all justice flows from the king. But the fact

180
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,240
Speaker 1: that there are these these trials in which you know,

181
00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:36,000
Speaker 1: basically the idea is you're handing over the prosecution of

182
00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,800
Speaker 1: justice to the gods. It is an acknowledgment that there

183
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,360
Speaker 1: is a debt ode to the people of the realm

184
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:50,839
Speaker 1: that must be made square by a power higher than

185
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:55,640
Speaker 1: the king. Now is the idea that if I beat

186
00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:01,920
Speaker 1: you in a fight, that's justice? And I was is

187
00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:02,920
Speaker 1: that ridiculous?

188
00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,000
Speaker 2: Yes, But that's how it looks.

189
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,240
Speaker 1: But the existence of it is really interesting. And I

190
00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,320
Speaker 1: think again an acknowledgment of the idea, or at least

191
00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:20,400
Speaker 1: a gesture towards the idea of a higher unbiased power right,

192
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:26,600
Speaker 1: And it's being twisted by various factions within this episode.

193
00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,800
Speaker 1: I mean, ariannist Is has come up with this idea

194
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,679
Speaker 1: of a trial by seven in order to try and

195
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,559
Speaker 1: trick justice, to try and like worm out of having

196
00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,480
Speaker 1: to fight someone who's much bigger than him one on one.

197
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,680
Speaker 1: Baylor is also trying to kind of game the system

198
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,080
Speaker 1: a little bit, but he is this is a format

199
00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:55,760
Speaker 1: in which it is possible, it is possible for justice

200
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 1: to be done within the context of this extremely barbaric

201
00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,280
Speaker 1: and simplistic idea of what justice is.

202
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree, and I also think that it

203
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,000
Speaker 2: raises some really interesting questions as well, of kind of

204
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,680
Speaker 2: about like privilege, because we end up in a really

205
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,959
Speaker 2: interesting situation where Eron basically uses his privilege as the king,

206
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,680
Speaker 2: as the Prince of the Blood to be able to,

207
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,840
Speaker 2: you know, say, hey, I want this trial of the seven.

208
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,200
Speaker 2: This is something that I can use. And but and

209
00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,880
Speaker 2: obviously we see how the gods take that. They don't

210
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,840
Speaker 2: take it particularly well. But at the same time, you

211
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,280
Speaker 2: could argue that the god's are least happy with Baylaw

212
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,040
Speaker 2: because Baylaw assumes that because of the protection of the

213
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:49,240
Speaker 2: King's guard, because of his role as this kind of negotiator,

214
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,280
Speaker 2: he essentially hopes that he can fight without being harmed.

215
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:58,280
Speaker 2: And that is like a very interesting kind of comfort

216
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,840
Speaker 2: in your own protection of the gods, or privilege of

217
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,880
Speaker 2: being you know, seen as potentially a future leader in

218
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,880
Speaker 2: a way that would dig in Also, Jason, I just

219
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,640
Speaker 2: want to say, I think I just want to dig

220
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,480
Speaker 2: into this day while we talk about this, When me

221
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,880
Speaker 2: and Jason were talking about how, you know, the way

222
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,720
Speaker 2: that Baylor died opens things up for macar we weren't

223
00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 2: saying Makars next did line.

224
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:26,560
Speaker 1: We're just saying, it's just becomes it's it's close, just

225
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,720
Speaker 1: to make it less like it's yes, it's it's within

226
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:35,400
Speaker 1: the realm of possibility, now exactly that it could happen exactly.

227
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,280
Speaker 2: But I think that's really interesting, and I think that

228
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,880
Speaker 2: it kind of leads really well into one of the

229
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,760
Speaker 2: most controversial parts of this episode, which is that flashback.

230
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,760
Speaker 2: So let's dig into that, Jason. How does that lead

231
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,040
Speaker 2: into the themes of debt, because obviously we learn a

232
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,520
Speaker 2: lot here about how Dunk perceives his personal debts.

233
00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:00,680
Speaker 1: Well, we discover, first of all, you know what Dunk

234
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,800
Speaker 1: owed the figures from the past, what he owed, what

235
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:11,280
Speaker 1: he owed his girlfriend, I guess you'd say the friends

236
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,760
Speaker 1: best friend slash girlfriend Raith, what he certainly we learn

237
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:22,040
Speaker 1: the unrepayable debt that he owes Sir Arlen, and we

238
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 1: learn about his own kind of emotional and mental debt

239
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 1: that he feels kind of irrationally. No, well, I guess

240
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,360
Speaker 1: like fairly but illogically, that he owes his mother for

241
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 1: bringing him into the world, despite the fact that she abandoned,

242
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,680
Speaker 1: despite the fact that she is nowhere to be seen

243
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:49,600
Speaker 1: and has left him to the fates. We discover that

244
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:55,720
Speaker 1: it's really the prime engine of his life is what

245
00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:01,800
Speaker 1: happened to her, and everything that happens after this flashback

246
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 1: is an attempt by Dunk to repay the debts to

247
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,080
Speaker 1: owe to other people Tancell. We discover from this flashback

248
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,480
Speaker 1: it's not about who Tancell is as herself. He barely

249
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:15,840
Speaker 1: knows her. He doesn't know her.

250
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:17,680
Speaker 2: She's pretty and cool, but.

251
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,440
Speaker 1: She seems very generous and nice, right, and they've interacted

252
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,520
Speaker 1: for probably a total of twelve minutes at most at most.

253
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:33,200
Speaker 1: But what she is is a projection of the debt

254
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,200
Speaker 1: he owes to Rafe and his failure to protect her

255
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,800
Speaker 1: in that moment exactly. And that's heartbreaking.

256
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought that was really good and also I

257
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,960
Speaker 2: love that read a bit. I will also say, look, guys,

258
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,880
Speaker 2: I mentioned it. It's a Fridging. I agree, Fredging's disappointed

259
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,600
Speaker 2: she gets fresh, she gets fridged. And also and it's

260
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,640
Speaker 2: a shame to see that in Game of Thrones, And also,

261
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,280
Speaker 2: you know, I love and I will say if you

262
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 2: guys miss the days of the Internet before now where

263
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 2: it's like a cuss space of void, if you missed

264
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,520
Speaker 2: the Internet where like you could maybe have like an

265
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,880
Speaker 2: interaction where you disagreed with someone but you still had

266
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,240
Speaker 2: a conversation about it and you both learned. Go in

267
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,760
Speaker 2: our discord into the martin verse section right now, because

268
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,640
Speaker 2: everyone is having these incredibly deep, cool, chilled out conversations

269
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,640
Speaker 2: about rape, about how it worked for them or didn't

270
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,400
Speaker 2: work for them, or to add it or didn't add

271
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,200
Speaker 2: And it's really inspired me because yeah, I do think

272
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,320
Speaker 2: it's fridging. But also there were people who that particular

273
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,760
Speaker 2: trope or dynamic had not been They had not been

274
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,760
Speaker 2: exposed to it before. So for them they were like, yeah,

275
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,240
Speaker 2: of course this would drive duncan, and they didn't really

276
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 2: understand the metatextual language around it. And I just love

277
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,120
Speaker 2: to see that conversation and I love that we can

278
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,040
Speaker 2: have them in a way about this show where we

279
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,160
Speaker 2: still acknowledge what works while saying like hey, maybe if

280
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 2: it hadn't if Dunk had been a boy, especially like

281
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,560
Speaker 2: a white boy or something, it would have maybe felt

282
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,920
Speaker 2: less Fridgi. But yeah, they established this to connect him

283
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,600
Speaker 2: to Tansel, and I totally understand, and I just kind

284
00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,160
Speaker 2: of love how all of this is adding to all

285
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,880
Speaker 2: conversations in general. Jason, I would also have to know

286
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,080
Speaker 2: about your feelings about what they kind of introduced about

287
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,560
Speaker 2: all in hand too, because there was some book people

288
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,399
Speaker 2: in that who said they felt like this added kind

289
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,800
Speaker 2: of a different context. What did you feel about that.

290
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,600
Speaker 1: I thought it was just the amount. I thought it

291
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,919
Speaker 1: was just the right amount of mm hmm context and mysteriousness.

292
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,400
Speaker 1: I want to I want to back up though to them, Yeah,

293
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:30,360
Speaker 1: because I think that first of all, they're right, and

294
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,880
Speaker 1: I think that there there's more even to to the criticism,

295
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,439
Speaker 1: and I think that this show actually does a great

296
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:43,440
Speaker 1: job of, you know, in an almost like alchemic way,

297
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:50,120
Speaker 1: avoiding some of the traps that could easily have been

298
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,680
Speaker 1: fallen into. Fridging is one of them. The other one

299
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,960
Speaker 1: is the fact that you know, you kind of don't notice,

300
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 1: or maybe you do, that there are almost no women

301
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:02,960
Speaker 1: in this show exactly.

302
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 2: And they was pointed out if rape hadn't have been

303
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,280
Speaker 2: in that episode, if she hadn't been a woman, there

304
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 2: would have only been one woman with a line in

305
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:10,560
Speaker 2: the episode.

306
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,720
Speaker 1: And they've done things throughout the season thus far to

307
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:19,520
Speaker 1: kind of like fudge it to make you not realize

308
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 1: that that's the case, whether it's bringing the courtisans out

309
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 1: and having like a conversation there, having Lord Ashford's daughter

310
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,800
Speaker 1: just kind of wandering to see right to say stuff.

311
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 1: It's like she doesn't need to be here. She ne's

312
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,760
Speaker 1: a bere because like if she's not there, we will

313
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,960
Speaker 1: not see a woman for another episode maybe. And so

314
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,240
Speaker 1: you know, I think the show it was. I think

315
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:47,200
Speaker 1: the fact that women are prominent in the production is

316
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: is probably why they have almost like dancing through the

317
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 1: rain drops, managed to avoid that feeling of absolutely it's

318
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 1: a guy fest all the time, because they managed to

319
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:02,600
Speaker 1: frame each episode in a way that you you actually

320
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,720
Speaker 1: really don't notice that there are there are very few

321
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:09,639
Speaker 1: women carry carriers.

322
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love that point, Jason, because this was

323
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,400
Speaker 2: another thing that came up in the chat. But you're

324
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,880
Speaker 2: right because also there are little things that they do,

325
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 2: like for example, in small things in episode five, what

326
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:28,800
Speaker 2: a huge moment. How massive did it feel when Dunk

327
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 2: stood up and then the redhead Cort Desan, who by

328
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,000
Speaker 2: the way, I don't know her name, so exactly our point,

329
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,199
Speaker 2: but when she stood up and yelled, that felt like,

330
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 2: oh my god, babe, you are risking your fucking life.

331
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,200
Speaker 2: And it feels so raw and so real, and that

332
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,439
Speaker 2: feels like a vital moment. So they do these clever

333
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 2: little bits Tanseell's importance, but I think that again, like

334
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,399
Speaker 2: you say, when the rave thing comes up, but you

335
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 2: start to you question it. But also I want to

336
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 2: say they did other stuff early on in the episode.

337
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,679
Speaker 2: The first episode has that really funny moment when Dunk

338
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,200
Speaker 2: pick up Alan's sword and the first thing he does

339
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 2: is go no, no, raper, and like he's gonna kill

340
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 2: a rapist. Like, So they set up these little nods

341
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 2: to say, hey, this isn't Game of Thrones, and we're

342
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,639
Speaker 2: acknowledging that and trying to do better. But also, this

343
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 2: is a show about two dudes.

344
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,680
Speaker 1: I mean, this is listen. This is the thing about

345
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,640
Speaker 1: storytelling is it's it's often a very very thin line

346
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 1: from something good and and fulfilling and satisfying and something

347
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,719
Speaker 1: that is is cheap, I mean from a different perspective,

348
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:34,159
Speaker 1: in different hands, in a more thin story. You know,

349
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 1: Dunk is just a like the captain save a hole

350
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 1: type character, you know what I mean, like.

351
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 2: Miladying all over. It's so true. And also, actually, Jason,

352
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 2: that's continued to glaze this show a little bit.

353
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 3: Because actually, you're right, there's also in twenty twenty six,

354
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 3: a show about two white guys who are just like

355
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,159
Speaker 3: walking around could seem very reactionary and like it's making

356
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 3: a statement about whose stories should be about. And yet

357
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 3: the choice to center it on class, the choice to

358
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 3: make sure that the people were seeing walking around represent

359
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 3: different kinds of people little nods actually make it feel

360
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 3: like it's quite radical. And a lot of shows right now,

361
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 3: especially you know, any other show where a spinoff is

362
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 3: coming out, and the last spinoff was focused on women,

363
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 3: obviously with House of the Dragon, and then immediately they

364
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,120
Speaker 3: do a one it's about guys.

365
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 2: It's two white guys. There's not a lot of women.

366
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 2: There's a way that this show could have been packaged

367
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 2: and sold as like a hey, Woke's gone like no

368
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 2: woke in Game of Thrones, and instead they said, hey,

369
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 2: what about if we just gave you a really fantastic

370
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 2: TV show from a different perspective and did it in

371
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 2: a thoughtful way. And I just still think I think

372
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 2: the fact that the show is hitting so hard and

373
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,239
Speaker 2: is managing to actually be quite subversive and allow us

374
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 2: to have all these conversations is exactly what makes it

375
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 2: a fantastic show.

376
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 1: And to the more, to the point of the fridging,

377
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: while it is on the scale of a like, I

378
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 1: think it's clearly on the like. If it's a five

379
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 1: point scale.

380
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 2: Stephan Nolan style Fridge, you know, it's like it happens early.

381
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 1: We don't know her, but they give her enough character.

382
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 1: The performance is full enough that you feel as if

383
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: you understand their relationship in their dynamic. And I think crucially,

384
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 1: we are operating within a world in which violence happens,

385
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: random violence happens, exploitation happens, people get killed, they die

386
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 1: in an alley, and nobody knows anything, nobody and nobody cares.

387
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 1: And because of all of those elements, you know, it's

388
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,360
Speaker 1: like a sleight of hand trick. It's like the sleight

389
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 1: of hand trick with the with the with the dearth

390
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: of female characters. Exactly they are able through the totality

391
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: and the weight and the richest of the story to

392
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 1: kind of avoid the trope.

393
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 2: And I think that, yeah, exactly, and I think that's why,

394
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 2: especially because I also think this is the first really

395
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: really violent thing we see before we go into the battle,

396
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 2: and this show has not had a lot of that,

397
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 2: and if it has, it's been further away, like Arian

398
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,479
Speaker 2: snapping her finger, very different to what happens in the books.

399
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 2: And I think that that brutality of it is that

400
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 2: kind of Game of Thrones violent reminder, and I think

401
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: that might be why a lot of people went, oh, fridged,

402
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 2: because immediately I meta text, but I do what I love,

403
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 2: and we talked about this in the show. I will

404
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 2: also say, like, guess what man that actually like one

405
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 2: that happens to women a lot. They die in Alley's,

406
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 2: especially young black women in wester Ros like and nobody cares.

407
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: So first of all, sad but true. Second of all,

408
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 2: what we highlighted and now, what I kind of loved

409
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: about your recap is like, also what I liked enough

410
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 2: about the character of Rafe is like a lot of

411
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: women who get fridged are just like somebody's girlfriend, and

412
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 2: they don't do anything, and they get fridged so that

413
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: the character she calls that herself and he's kidding activity

414
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: that amount of kaka, like she should have just stabbed

415
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: that guy. So like again, it's like you said, I

416
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: think slight a pantrick is a great, a great way

417
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 2: to talk about it.

418
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: And then there's the debt ode to Sir Arlen, which

419
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: is the most Yeah, let's talk about obvious and manifest,

420
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: you know, the way he the episode is called In

421
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: the Name of the Mother. We learn through Young Dunk's

422
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: conversations with Brief about Dunk's fixation about this mysterious person

423
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: who brought him into the world. And it's interesting that

424
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: he it's really only the mother that he that he

425
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: thinks of. That's like, yeah, like that idealistic idea of

426
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: like the of tenderness and generosity, and and he knows

427
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: that she's never coming back, maybe she's even dead, and

428
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: yet it's the one one thing that's keeping him from

429
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 1: like happily jumping onto the next ship that leaves town.

430
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: And we talked about it in the recap, when you know,

431
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: he's just watched Rafe have her throw cut in front

432
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: of him. She's bleeding out in his arms. He is

433
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: going to die, probably in the next less than a minute.

434
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: And here comes He's just spent like the whole day

435
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: wondering about you know, as he's thinking he's about to

436
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 1: close the door on Westrol's like I'm leaving, that's it.

437
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: And he's just spent that whole day wondering about his mom.

438
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: And if that really means that she's he's gonna have

439
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: to he's gonna have to let go of the fantasy

440
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 1: of the hope that she could ever play a role

441
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 1: in his life. And then here comes Sir Arlen, whirling

442
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: out of the doorway with his sword in his hand, crying,

443
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: you know, in the name of the Mother. And you

444
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: can't overstate what a powerful moment that was clearly for Dunk.

445
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it was a transformative moment. It must have

446
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: felt like, you know, in this culture, in this society

447
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: that looks for signs and things and feels like the

448
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: hands of the gods on different on different aspects of

449
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: life all the time, it must have felt like like

450
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: a message from his mother.

451
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 2: I think it does, and like it's making me tear

452
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: up thinking about it. And I know, like I was

453
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 2: really interested with how the flashback did or didn't hit

454
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: for people, But for me, I just thought it was

455
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 2: so fantastic because it managed to showcase the desperation and

456
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: kind of abject loss of a child who just has

457
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 2: like no support network. I don't know. It was like

458
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: the way that he's following him and then he just

459
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: keep He's like, who is this guy? And we see

460
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: him singing in doth Racky and he's kind of this

461
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 2: almost becomes like this sort of folkloric figure in his mind,

462
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 2: this pied piper that he's following in the name of

463
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: his mother. And then eventually when Sir Allen acknowledges him

464
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: and chooses to give him the water and chooses to

465
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: take him on, it's almost like a gift to Dunk,

466
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: you know, That's how he sees it, and we sort

467
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 2: of start to understand. What I loved about this introduction

468
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: and the way Sir Alan to come on is like,

469
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 2: this explains why Dunk's memories of him are so weird,

470
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: because this man is weird. He's always was. To Dunk,

471
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 2: he appeared at a weird time in his life, a traumatic,

472
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: terrible time. He basically came out as if he was

473
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: sent by Dunk's mother to look after him. This child

474
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 2: who's not eaten for days, is basically in a hallucinatory state,

475
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: and then is in a situation where this man just

476
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: tells him the most unbelievable stories and he's a drunk

477
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 2: and you can't tell whether it's true or not true.

478
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: And there's so much in this kind of hallucinatory flashback

479
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 2: that I think explains a lot about the perspectives that

480
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 2: we have seen. And I think this is the first time,

481
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: in my opinion, that we're seeing like a true flashback

482
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: that is not just through Dunk's perspective, like, think this

483
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 2: is what happened. Oh interesting, that's my gut feeling.

484
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: I think you think this is the truth.

485
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: Rather, this is the truth, And I think this is

486
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: why it's a full flashback. We follow his perspective, it

487
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 2: goes through it, but it's also, like Tansell dies, we

488
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 2: get these details from other people. It's not this moment.

489
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: There's so much there and so much texture that I

490
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: think this is the closest to the truth, even if

491
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 2: it still has a little bit of that surrealness.

492
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: I believe you're right. Uh yeah, I think that that's right.

493
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: I it's interesting because you know the way you frame

494
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: the weirdness of their relationship and the way that young

495
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: Dunk would have perceived Sir Arlen and his stories, it

496
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: makes me think of of of Marty Supreme, Marty Supreme

497
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: to here's my theory about what Marty Supreme is me

498
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: and that's I guess spoiler if you haven't seen it.

499
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: But so it opens with Marty Spring literally opens with

500
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: the sperm Marty Supreme sperm swimming towards the egg of

501
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: his love interest in the film played by and my

502
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: theory on the movie is that it is the stories

503
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: that Marty Supreme told that son I love conceived in

504
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: that moment. Oh yeah, let me tell you it was crazy.

505
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: I was. I was the number one ping pong player

506
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: in the in the America for many years. Is right

507
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: after World War two. And then and then I fucked

508
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,719
Speaker 1: I fucked your mom in a a shoe star and

509
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: I spanked me. Yeah, and then I went over there

510
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: and I ate out this rich lady. His wife. She

511
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: gave me a diamond necklace. But then I lost and

512
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: I had to go in there and he spanked me.

513
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: And then we went to Japan and I played the guy.

514
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: But because it was a non section, uh you know

515
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: about I didn't get the I didn't actually get to

516
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: be the recognid. You know. It's like all of these

517
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: kinds of tall tales, right, And I think that's you know,

518
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: we see Dunk throughout the this series come to terms with,

519
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,959
Speaker 1: you know, the debt that that truth owes well, the

520
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: debt that the tail owes to truth, right. And I

521
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: think it's a harsh lesson throughout this series where he

522
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: realizes that sometimes people they're not lying, but they're also

523
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: twisting things constant only them look better. And it's they

524
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: don't maybe mean anything by it, but and maybe it's

525
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: even because they're trying to justify to themselves and to

526
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: and to this young ward that Sir Arlin has taken

527
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: on the the devotion that a young person has given

528
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: to an a to an adult man, Sir Arlin, who

529
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: really doesn't deserve it for what. You know, why why

530
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: this person, this young person looks up to me, loves

531
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: me for what? And so what do you have to

532
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: do to earn that? Oh? Yeah, I broke seven lances

533
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: on exactly. Prince Baylor, the fucking the crown Prince of

534
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: the Realm. I did this and that I fought over here.

535
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: I got it. I got shot with an arrow in

536
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: this war, right, you have to earn it. And I

537
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: think that's it tells us I think a lot about

538
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: Sir Arlin in this kind of oblique way.

539
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: I love this because also I think this is extremely relevant. Jason. Yeah,

540
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: not only has Joel pointed out one of our favorite lines,

541
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: the story grows in the telling, right, isn't that the

542
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: theme of this? But also let's raise one of the

543
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: questions that many Discord users, including many of our most

544
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 2: regular Discord users, put into the chat, which is Jason

545
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: speaking of people who've been telling stories. Is Baylor the

546
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: brakspit actually good in battle if he is not surrounded

547
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: by the King's god?

548
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: And is the hammer?

549
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: And like is the hammer more powerful? Like what's going

550
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: on there? Because a lot like what are we really

551
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: learning here about the realities of the Targarians at this point?

552
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 2: Because also somebody else put wouldn't I think it was

553
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: egg On? Apologies if I didn't, and apologies for not

554
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: crediting you guys, but I don't want to go on

555
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: my phone while we're recording. But like woodn't isn't egg On?

556
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: Like the conqueror, like crying in his bed at night

557
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: about the fact that these motherfuckers are dressing up dragons

558
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: as fucking dressing up horses as dragons and fucking fighting

559
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: like random hedge nights. You know, like what about the

560
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 2: Targarian legend and how the Targarian tale has to stay

561
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: alive even somebody like Baylor, who we trust, who is

562
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: a generally good person.

563
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: It's a good point, right, there must be. There's there's

564
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: clearly an element of propaganda in the way that the

565
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: Targerians are perceived or try to alter their the perception

566
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: of them throughout the realm. At the same time, my

567
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: sense is of Baylor, you know, he won the Breakspeare

568
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: title from a famous victory at a tournament against Damon Blackfire,

569
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: the the notable bastard and cause of the Blackfire rebel,

570
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: well of one of the causes of black who was

571
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: no slash himself. I I think we have to give Baylor. Listen, Baylor,

572
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: just because you tried to cheat the system, which I

573
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: think we can all he definite then to an extent, he.

574
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: Tried to cheat the system in response to the fact

575
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: that Ram was cheating it. Yeah, Also, like you know,

576
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: does one good makeup but to bad.

577
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: Just because he tried to pull a fast one here,

578
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: I think doesn't mean that he wasn't good. I think

579
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: that when you look at the things he did, including

580
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: you know, fighting and commanding troops in the Blackfire Rebellion,

581
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: I think that any opportunity, as we have seen from

582
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: this series of for the people, the common people, to

583
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: talk shit about a targeary and be like that guy's

584
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: actually trash, that guy's not all he's they will take that.

585
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: They will take me.

586
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: And so I think that I think it's I think

587
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: he earned the nickname Breakspeare, and I think that he

588
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: can fight. I just think that, you know, you get

589
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: onlck like fights are chaotic and you never know what's

590
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: going to happen. That's the thing about violence is you

591
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,959
Speaker 1: employ it for an end, but you don't actually know

592
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 1: what the e and maybe you win, but you don't

593
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: know what the effects are. You don't know what enemies

594
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: you've created, you don't know who might die in the process,

595
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: you don't know how many you might be effects.

596
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: It's the butterfly effect, right, and you never know, like

597
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: if in five generations someone else's like the guy who's

598
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 2: kid you killed is gonna his great granddaughter.

599
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: Is gonna come back and blah blah.

600
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 2: Blah or whatever. Yeah, yeah, I like that, And you're

601
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: right as well because also in a way, that comfort

602
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: and privilege that he feels in his you know, the

603
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 2: debt that he feels the Kingsguard owes to him and

604
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 2: stuff like that, allows him to step into a situation

605
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: where he maybe doesn't appreciate the chaos of what could

606
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: really happen because alongside his brother Maker, I imagine that

607
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: behind closed doors, they probably had at least one conversation

608
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: being like, oh, Arian's such a fucking idiot. I can't

609
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: believe he goes into this. So I think that that

610
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: also probably lulled him into that sense of security of

611
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 2: we can do this in a way that's not gonna

612
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: end terribly. But then, in my favorite debt that you

613
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: kind of pointed out, let, we get to the debt

614
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: of the trial, and I think this is really so

615
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: deep and fucking real about all of the kind of

616
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 2: stuff that happens in Game of Thrones and who really

617
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: ends up paying for it and what the debt has

618
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 2: to be.

619
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: Right, Well, first, there's several levels to it, there's First

620
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: of all, there is the trial, which is a debt

621
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: paid by blood, by bodies, by bone. There are multiple

622
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: people who owe multiple UH figures and ideas fighting within

623
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: this trial. Arion certainly owes a big debt to the

624
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: truth which he ends up paying UH and in a

625
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: metateextual sense that this scene is a debt owed to

626
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: the fans of Game of Throne in order to make

627
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: this a Game of Throne show. If you don't have this.

628
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 2: That's so interesting. I love that take.

629
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: If you don't have this big, violent, chaotic fight that

630
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,959
Speaker 1: feels like the winners win but pay a cost, which

631
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: to me is that is that's George R. Martin, that's

632
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: Game of Thrones. Yeah, we fight a battle and maybe

633
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: the winners win. You know, whoever wins wins, but they

634
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: don't come out of it unscathed. And all of those

635
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: things are interplaying to make this such an incredible and

636
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: effective scene. And yeah, like we watch people pay their

637
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: debts and lose their lives, you know, rip to uh,

638
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: Humphrey Beesberry.

639
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 2: We barely knew the man, we barely knew thee and

640
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: that in that sense, Jason, there's many ways we could

641
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 2: read that. I think it's really interesting because there is

642
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: a closs element to it, which is like you fucking

643
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 2: get dragged into this shit and just fucking die from

644
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 2: some the guy you never met because of some idea

645
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: of honor that doesn't matter for a chance to say

646
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 2: fuck you to the Tagarians. But at the same time,

647
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,919
Speaker 2: it could also be about how the gods perceived Well,

648
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 2: that is a debt that he owes to, you know,

649
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: this hedge Knight who's gonna do great things like I

650
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: kind of love how there's all these different readings. We

651
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 2: also don't know about his personal debts or the things

652
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: that he promised or did or wanted for his own family.

653
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: And I think that some of the critiques of the

654
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: battle scene are that we didn't get that. But for me,

655
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: I'm so invested in Dunk at this point that I

656
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 2: want to be at his eye level. I want to

657
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 2: know how the fight is for him. Like so for

658
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: me it worked. I understand with such a fantastic cast

659
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: of characters like you know, the Laughing Storm and all

660
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: the other great guys that we get in this that

661
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 2: some people might have wanted a bit more. But again

662
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: it's that tight storytelling. Because of these tight time constraints

663
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: that for me, I just feel like we leave this

664
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 2: episode at like a real high for Game of Thrones

665
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: and kind of where it can lead going into that

666
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: final episode, and of course the future of this show,

667
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: which we would love to see continue and kind of

668
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: expand into other areas of West russ Up yet to

669
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 2: really explore.

670
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: I think it's very It shows that even in his

671
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: concust severely injured state, the.

672
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: Way we're gonna talk about that more off to the

673
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 2: break and I want to let's make a break, take

674
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 2: a break. We h.

675
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: And we're back.

676
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 2: Dunk.

677
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm starting about Dunk. Dunk gets uh, gets Arion

678
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: to pay his debt to the truth and to to

679
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: justice for himself and a blated justice for Tansel. And

680
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: I think it shows the wisdom and the hard earned

681
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: experience that Dunk has gained over the course of the

682
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: series that he doesn't even in his heavily concust and

683
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: injured state, he is wise enough to not just let

684
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: Arion's words pass between them to make sure he picks

685
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: him up by the nape of the neck, drags him

686
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 1: over to the to the dais and say it holds

687
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: him up so that everybody can hear it, and very

688
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: wise of Dunk. I'm not sure that earlier Dunk would

689
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: have done this.

690
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: He knows now you can't trust these ideas, You cannot

691
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 2: loyalty like they're they're they're very effervescent and kind of

692
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 2: ever changing in this world. Actually, I would love to

693
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: ask you about that because one of the things that

694
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 2: from the pre trial that I'm really interested in when

695
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 2: you think about like debts and stuff, is like, Sir Stepan,

696
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 2: what does it mean to get a lordship and be

697
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 2: rewarded even though you are betraying someone else? You know,

698
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 2: what does that debt add because that is part of

699
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 2: the mac nation of the Seven kingdoms, but it also

700
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 2: goes against the nightly notion of loyalty and humility and

701
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: your wid your bond.

702
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question, I think because I think

703
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: there's a class issue at play, right, I don't think

704
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: I don't think he could, right. I don't think Sir

705
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: foss Away would have done this if it was at

706
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: the behest of someone of equal standing to Dunk, for instance,

707
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: right or lesser standing like foss Away is looking to

708
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: move up. Okay, and we get that, but that's also

709
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: you know we were talking about Jamie earlier. There's an

710
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: interesting contrast to play in the realm, which is one

711
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: everybody on a certain level, there is a wide acknowledgment

712
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: from people who take part in west Rose politics that

713
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: your that your word and the oath of a knight

714
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: and all of these things. There's signific gray area and

715
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: you're kind of a dupe if you believe in this ship.

716
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 1: But there's also like a realistic reading of yes. But listen,

717
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: you can't break your word in in the most public

718
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 1: kind of way. Jamie saved the realm, did a thing

719
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: that's incredibly.

720
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 2: Heroic, so many people.

721
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 1: Saved, saved thousands of lives. But now you he swore

722
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,439
Speaker 1: one thing ever, which he's like to protect the life

723
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: of the king, and he swore it at the most

724
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 1: in the most like famous public way to join an

725
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: order that's like only based on that. And if you

726
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: can't trust him to do that, then what can you

727
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: trust him?

728
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: That's the thing that's tough, and that's the thing which

729
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: so that's my thing with like fuss Away, he obviously

730
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: the general audience he was not miked up. It's not

731
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 2: the remfaret, so they didn't know. But that's gonna get around,

732
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,479
Speaker 2: and I feel like it's public enough that I would

733
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 2: be interested to know or see if it impacts him

734
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 2: in some way, because you would assume that would be

735
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: somebody who would die in that if the gods are

736
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 2: really true and it's about justice. But maybe there is

737
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: other forces.

738
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: At play here.

739
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I just find the whole thing so intriguing.

740
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 2: But Jason, I'm gonna have to ask you about something

741
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: because one of the big talking points in both the

742
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: discord online people dming me, which, by the way, guys,

743
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: I'm a suspension of disbelief head. I'm addicted to suspending

744
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 2: my disbelief, so I'm always gonna be suspending. Don't worry, guys,

745
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna be having the I'm I'm like at

746
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 2: thirty seven years old, the young thirty seven entering into

747
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, this crazy ass year, happy Lunari year.

748
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: By the way, that's when we're recording this. The true

749
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 2: new year has begun. We can maybe start fresh. But

750
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: like I I am looking at the choices and the

751
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 2: storytelling and going, how does this make me feel? I

752
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 2: love this. I am Grant Morrison saying, hey, don't ask

753
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,919
Speaker 2: me how you fill up Batman's tire. I don't care

754
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 2: right for a lot of people, for a lot of people,

755
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 2: the amount of violence that Dunk took this episode and

756
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 2: stood up from what's a little much. Maybe Jason, could

757
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 2: you talk a little bit about it. I thought it

758
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: was great because he's fucking huge. It was believable to me.

759
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: But I think that's the that's in the book, but

760
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 2: not that's how people felt. Like maybe in the book

761
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 2: it's just one lance, Like he wasn't getting stabbed like

762
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 2: seven times or whatever. Like, how do you read what

763
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: they were trying to tell us about Dunk in this moment,

764
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: Because I don't think it's about strength. I think it's

765
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: about willpower. I think this is about Dunk hearing egg On,

766
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: knowing he has to do what's right for Tansell. I

767
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 2: don't even though he's huge and that helps. I think

768
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 2: it's more about saying who Dunk is as a person

769
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 2: and who he wants to be than anything about him

770
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: being like supernaturally you know, able to take seven lances.

771
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: I think he understands. You know, there's a moment in

772
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: a fight where you realize you're in a fight and

773
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: it's exhilarating and scary because one you could lose, but

774
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: you could also win. And there's and I think there's

775
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: something that happens, you know, where you realize I can

776
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: I can break this person here, like yes, I'm I

777
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:24,919
Speaker 1: can bring justice now, like it's within reach. And though

778
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: the price keeps rising as he keeps getting stabbed and

779
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 1: cut and sliced and he takes a punch, you know, Listen, hey,

780
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: I think it's a it's a credit to Steely Pate

781
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 1: and his that the armor turned so much of the blows.

782
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 1: You know, he does take significantly bad blows, but look

783
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: at the craftsmanship and look at the way that those

784
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: blows are blunted enough turned enough.

785
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: Jet review, I.

786
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: Lived, you know how?

787
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: You know how guess it was that at the end

788
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 2: to pull dun kop when he'd go arian the justice

789
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,399
Speaker 2: that was dealt to him, it was Steely Pate.

790
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: He was right now, Wills. Here's the other thing. Let's

791
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: talk about the debt to Steely Pate.

792
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I mean that ship start.

793
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: Listen, when you get into the when you start making

794
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: some coin, you gotta search this fucking guy out, and

795
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: and before that to pay him back for saving your

796
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 1: life basically, and before and before you get that money

797
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: to pay him back, you gotta be putting this guy's

798
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: name out there.

799
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 2: You're gonna be like that's been down everywhere.

800
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: Across the realm. Well, you know, you know, you know

801
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: part of why I win, of course, it was the

802
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: grace of the gods to bring justice and truth to

803
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: the realm. And it was their judgment that that in

804
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: their wisdom that I was right and the victor, uh,

805
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 1: you know, within their holy sight of this particular question.

806
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: But it was also the fact that Steely Pate makes

807
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: a fucking great shield, great eight Tom. He could do

808
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: any kind of work that you want. He doesn't like

809
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 1: to work on other people's arm, but he can do it.

810
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: And let me tell you, Steely pet for all your

811
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: armor needs. Visit him now everything Steal Steely Pete.

812
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,479
Speaker 2: Steely peayt dot com, Steely pay don't come silas pash

813
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 2: Steely Paint. And then when he gets really famous, he'll

814
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 2: take over the It will be the Steely pay uh memorial,

815
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, Jousting Lounge or whatever. Steely peyrena dot com.

816
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 1: All which is to say, I think it's I think it's.

817
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 2: It's interesting that Dunk ends this with a new debt.

818
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 2: That's actually a really interest because this at several new

819
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 2: because Egg on as well, he does you know, young egg,

820
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 2: we love him and they owe something to each other.

821
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: To each other now goes a lot to Dunk as well,

822
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: for one getting him in this mess. And two, you know,

823
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 1: I mean prince. Here's the thing about the prince's egg.

824
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: Egg is a prince. The whole world is at his fingertips. Yes,

825
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: he's kind of in a box in terms of like

826
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: the things that he can do and want. But like

827
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 1: all he wanted to do was squire for a night,

828
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 1: and by golly, did he make it happen. He really

829
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: made it happen. He got his bully brother, taught a

830
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 1: lesson to his uncle, did die, and that's listening. Nothing

831
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 1: comes without a cost. But he got what he wanted.

832
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 2: He did know what he wanted. Well, that's really interesting

833
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 2: as well, because I think I kind of love this

834
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 2: as another question. And obviously this is kind of funny

835
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 2: because I think if you just heard somebody say this

836
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,919
Speaker 2: off rip, like if this got clipped, they'd be like wow,

837
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: rosy deep take, Like no one's ever said this before.

838
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 2: But I think what the show does really well is

839
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 2: it takes really simplistic ideas like what is the cost

840
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 2: of getting what you want? And like makes you actually

841
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 2: fucking think about it, because guess what, Egg Lun the

842
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 2: cost his beloved uncle that he trusted, who could have

843
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 2: been a great leader for wester Row, that was the

844
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 2: cost of him getting to do this thing that he wanted.

845
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 2: Dunk has learned that the cost of getting to be

846
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: a Knight is lying and playing along and being part

847
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 2: of this game, seeing people treated badly, fighting, and to

848
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 2: the point of Rian, you know, really having to essentially

849
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:23,879
Speaker 2: violently humiliate someone in public, which is not particularly something

850
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 2: Dunk has any interest in. So I love that notion

851
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 2: of like what does it cost to get what you want?

852
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 2: And in that case, seeing as right now duncan Egg

853
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 2: have both got what they want. Egg got to squire,

854
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,280
Speaker 2: Dunk got to win, He got the justice for Tansel,

855
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 2: the justice for himself. The Rian had to take back

856
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 2: his you know, accusation, which means hypothetically Tansel and the

857
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,479
Speaker 2: Mummas should no longer be being hunted. They've both gotten

858
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 2: what they want. Now how do they deal with that?

859
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 2: When what they want has changed the entire getting what

860
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 2: they want has changed the entire course of the Seven kingdoms.

861
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: Like where that's crazy when we really think about it.

862
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: Yes, and then let's finally let's talk about Baylor and

863
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: his debt too. You know, here's the thing that, here's

864
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: the one thing that feudalism has over oligarchy. Okay, and listen,

865
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: I'm not even ice and this is not a this

866
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: is not a polypide definition of either of those two terms.

867
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: But here's the good thing about feudalism, as as as

868
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: depicted by A Game of Thrones and a Song of

869
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: Ice and Fire, the rich guys actually had to go

870
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: out and fight like that was their role. They were rich,

871
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: they controlled everything, they held all the land as their

872
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 1: personal servants. But when it when the rubber hit the road,

873
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: they were expected to be on the front lines with

874
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: the lance doing stuff. And here is Baylor in you know,

875
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 1: taking that role and taking it seriously, understanding that Targerians

876
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 1: are kind of in a shaky place the realm, and

877
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 1: that it would be good for the family to show

878
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: that they actually will fight for the little guy sometimes, right,

879
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: they'll take the side against their own family when their

880
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: own family is kind of stepped over the line and

881
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: done something in just they will step up and say,

882
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 1: you know what, that's a little fucked up, And it's

883
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: an acknowledgment of the fact that civil wars amongst the

884
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: family have been incredibly destructive. You know. Now it's a

885
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: little funny because this is like a mini civil war

886
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: happening within, like within the confines of the Turney grounds.

887
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 1: But he tries to. He tries to juice the system

888
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: a little bit by leveraging the fact that the Kingsguard

889
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: owe him their allegiance and oh, the Targerian family in general,

890
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: their allegiance, and so he tries to I think, in

891
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: my mind, the characters in this show probably go a

892
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: little too far and the way that they will, they

893
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: perceive this like, you know, cheating of the gods. But

894
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: I don't think they're wrong in the way that they

895
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: I don't think they're wrong on the facts.

896
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 2: Like he does.

897
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 1: His whole idea is that, hey, they can't fight me,

898
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: so I can kind of fight without really fighting and

899
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: let the actual justice, the actual fight take place over here.

900
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: That ends up biting him, and he ends up paying

901
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: the ultimate debt, which is really the one coin that

902
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 1: all knights and lords and people of royal blood. Well,

903
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 1: the men of royal blood in this world are expected

904
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 1: to pay, which is laid down their life at a

905
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: certain point when conflict becomes necessary, and Baylor pays it.

906
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: Baylor pays it in shocking fashion.

907
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 2: Oh he really does. And I love that notion. Two

908
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 2: of kind of I love the way that this version

909
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 2: of Game of Thrones, though we know that dragons are

910
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 2: real and magic is real and all that shit that

911
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: we've seen, I kind of love that there is a

912
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: plausible deniability here to any existence of the gods or

913
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 2: anything like that. You could be watching this show and

914
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, the gods. But I kind of love

915
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 2: how subtly Bela's like yeah, but like it's fine because

916
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 2: they can't fight me, and the gods who Arian is

917
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 2: fucking invoked, Yeah, in this ancient fucking tournament, are like okay.

918
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 2: So so you're saying that three people who represent literal

919
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 2: human versions of us, you just they're not going to

920
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 2: do anything like you think you can get around that.

921
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 2: And I kind of love that in that moment, you

922
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 2: could argue, yeah, it's the chaos of the battle, but

923
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:51,879
Speaker 2: you could argue, hey, man, that's Hubris and the God

924
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 2: struck you down. And I love that balance of how

925
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 2: both arguments work. It's very pleasing to me on a

926
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: story level. And also I think that it fits with

927
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,240
Speaker 2: everything we know about how George likes to tell these stories.

928
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 2: Isn't this akin to Ned being killed in Game of Thurns?

929
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 2: Doesn't it make people feel the same way? Doesn't it

930
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 2: shock them that you meet an incredible man, someone who

931
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 2: could be the lead character, who could be the hero,

932
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 2: and we know in this story that he is not

933
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 2: a hero. But it feels akin to hey, here is

934
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: somebody who's great, who's doing the right things, but in

935
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 2: this world that will never get you any other price

936
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 2: than debt.

937
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: That it's interesting because I think that there I think

938
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,439
Speaker 1: there is a similarity with Ned, but an important difference. Ned,

939
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 1: though he understood power and how it was weelded, I think,

940
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: projected a like innate honor on people that they didn't deserve.

941
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: He didn't realize the depths that people would go.

942
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 2: To to hold on people he didn't like. He d

943
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 2: like understand that little Finger was a scumbag, but like

944
00:54:57,920 --> 00:54:59,720
Speaker 2: everyone else understood.

945
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 1: Okay, you're piece of shit. But there's lines that even

946
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: you won't cross. That's wrong, right. Baylor, I think understands

947
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: that piece. But I think what he is I don't know,

948
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 1: because he he acknowledges before the fight, you know who

949
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 1: is it. I think it's a reasoning that says to him,

950
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 1: is that honorable? When he basically says like I'll take

951
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 1: care of the king's card, he says, the gods will

952
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,879
Speaker 1: let us know. And I think that's an acknowledgment of Listen,

953
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of rolling the dice a little bit here,

954
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: like it's this could work, this could it may work.

955
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: And in that sense, I don't know that I put

956
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,760
Speaker 1: Baylor on the same level as Ned I think.

957
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 2: Doesn't have naivete about the world.

958
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: I think if Baylor had a weakness, it was to

959
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:58,479
Speaker 1: be an almost modern political mind in this realm where

960
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: that doesn't think that way. People don't think in that manner.

961
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 1: They don't think about the the small folk in their

962
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 1: opinions in the way that Baylor senses them. And while

963
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: Baylor is right that it's important to take stock of

964
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: the way people feel about the family, there's also this

965
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 1: weird in this world. There's this weird like Catch twenty two,

966
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: where if you take into account the way the small

967
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,399
Speaker 1: folk in the realm feel about you, take that into

968
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: your formulation of what to do, there will be a

969
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: significant amount of that population because they are so used

970
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: to the hard hand, the whip in the hand, the sword,

971
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: they will take that as weakness. We see, right, it

972
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 1: will be, and it will be a self fulfilling prophecy

973
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:53,839
Speaker 1: of well, now maybe I should have just cracked down.

974
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, and so so fucking relevant.

975
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 1: And so it's a catch twenty two. I think for him,

976
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: you know, because.

977
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,800
Speaker 2: You're right, And also I want to say about the

978
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 2: Baylaw situation as well as like and this is you

979
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 2: can tell he's raised by a hardcore atheist because as

980
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 2: soon as I start finding anything about mystical religions, I

981
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 2: love them in shows and like the thing with the

982
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 2: gods that I find so interesting is like, actually, maybe

983
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 2: the god's killing Baylaw was them letting him know that

984
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 2: they did think it was an honorable decision because it's

985
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 2: going to lead to good things. And this is how

986
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 2: you die. You made the right choice. You're never going

987
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 2: to be able to lead west Ros as the man

988
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 2: you want to be lived to be the you know,

989
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 2: live ideals and to be before you turn into a

990
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 2: villain and you become another crazy tagarian. And hey, maybe

991
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 2: because of this and this young man surviving Dunk and

992
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 2: you know, now we know Eggon is still alive, maybe

993
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 2: there is more in their future that will happen because

994
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 2: you did this. But Jason On a political as a

995
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 2: political historian of wester Ros and somebody who's studied deeply

996
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 2: in the you know, the ann of the Masters, et cetera,

997
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 2: do you think that the world of wester Ros is

998
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 2: better post the death of Baylaw with what we know

999
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 2: about where it leads, or do you think there's a

1000
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 2: version where even though certain events will occur that will

1001
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 2: change the fate of west Ros. Do you think it

1002
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 2: could have been better if he did it? Like?

1003
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: Do you know, like do you think if he if

1004
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: he lived and became king? I think in the in

1005
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 1: the in the in the medium term, when he you know,

1006
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 1: if he should have lived and would have risen to

1007
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: the throne, I think Westross would have been in a

1008
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: better place. But I think it would have only been

1009
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: a speed bump.

1010
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 2: Hmmm.

1011
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: With regards to where the realm was going and where

1012
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 1: the family was going. It was at a certain point right,

1013
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: one of those crazy was going to get on the throne,

1014
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,479
Speaker 1: one of those weirdos who thinks that, or a fucking

1015
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: dragon or whatever, or you know, drinks fucking wildfire or whatever.

1016
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 1: You know, one of those one of those fucking strange os,

1017
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: you know, who's the little too much incest in the mix.

1018
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: For this one would have gotten on the throne, because

1019
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: that's what's up with them, That's what's going on in

1020
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 1: that family, and it would have all fallen apart. The

1021
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: mad king was coming, whether it was in you know,

1022
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 1: what did he get the eighty or whatever it was

1023
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,479
Speaker 1: he was coming at. He was coming at some point

1024
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: of time, whether point in time, whether it was gonna

1025
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 1: be uh, you know Vicea's the second or somebody else.

1026
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: And so I think it would have been better, but

1027
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 1: only for a time. That's how I feel about it. Well,

1028
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 1: this has been so fun to talk about this episode.

1029
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: I can't wait for the finale. It's one of the

1030
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 1: finale after an episode like this, we still have one more.

1031
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Actuallyvation, We're continue our coverage

1032
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 1: of nine of the Seven kingdoms with more recaps and

1033
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: deep dives in our Ravens report. And that's it for

1034
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: this episode of actualisting Boo x ray Vision is hosted

1035
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 1: by Jason Sepcion and Rosie Knight and is a production

1036
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 1: of iHeart Podcasts.

1037
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.

1038
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abuzafar.

1039
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 2: Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wag.

1040
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme

1041
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 1: songs by Aaron Kaufman.

1042
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and

1043
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 2: Heidi our discord moderator.