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Speaker 1: Warning, Today's episode contains spoilers for The Penguin episode five Homecoming,

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Speaker 1: so watch that before you listen to this. Hello. My

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Speaker 1: name is Jason Cepcion and I'm Wedsday Night and welcome

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Speaker 1: back to x Ray Vision of the podcast where we

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Speaker 1: dive deep but dear favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture.

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Speaker 1: Coming you from iHeart Podcast, where we're bringing you two

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Speaker 1: episodes a week every Tuesday and Thursday. Sometimes three, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Gonna say sometimes we get a third extra episode on Wednesdays.

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Speaker 2: In today's episode, in the Airlock, we are talking about

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Speaker 2: another fantastic episode of The Penguin.

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Speaker 3: Did you think it could get better after episode four? Well,

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Speaker 3: guess what it does.

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Speaker 2: It does, and we have a delightful interview with costume

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Speaker 2: designer Helen Hwang.

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Speaker 3: But first the.

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Speaker 1: Elop episode five of The Penguin Homecoming, Rosie. This show

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Speaker 1: just keeps getting.

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Speaker 3: Better, it really does.

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Speaker 2: This is astonishingly great, coming after one of the best

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Speaker 2: episodes of TV of the year, which was one O

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Speaker 2: four with Sofia's origin, and I just had no idea

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Speaker 2: how they could follow that up in a way that

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Speaker 2: a would make you care about Oz again and B

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Speaker 2: would give Sofia the airtime she needed to let her

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Speaker 2: story breathe, and it did both, and I'm honestly just

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Speaker 2: so excited about it.

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Speaker 1: Let's start. We start the morning after Vic's escape with

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Speaker 1: Oz from the clutches of the Maronis, after his entire

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Speaker 1: scheme got burned in front of Sofia. His scheme got burned,

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Speaker 1: so Oz is burning up his beautiful plumb as roddy.

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Speaker 1: He sets fire to it, all the while reminiscing with

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Speaker 1: Vic about a gentleman named Rex.

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Speaker 2: Caliber we first had him talk about in the pilot.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Apparently, Rex, an inspiration to a young Oz,

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Speaker 1: had a wonderful gold Cadillac that that Oz clearly uh

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Speaker 1: thinks of as success. That's success, having a really nice car.

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Speaker 1: As he as his car burns up, he says, end

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Speaker 1: of the end of an era, Vic asks, Okay, what

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Speaker 1: about Sophia?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 1: What does this means? Don't worry about what about the car?

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Speaker 1: Don't worry about Sophia. Here's what Oz loves. Oz loves

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Speaker 1: that Vic showed loyalty forget about an the little.

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Speaker 3: Wobble like, don't worry about it, don't work, smashed the

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Speaker 3: car in or something for me saved my life. So

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Speaker 3: it's us.

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Speaker 1: I love it. This is forget about everything else. It's

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Speaker 1: you and me and Nick. Some bear henchman show up

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Speaker 1: some guys that used to work for the for the

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Speaker 1: Drops operation that Oz was running. Low level, very street

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Speaker 1: level guys. They show up in a van and Oz says, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm cutting you in on the new drug distribution deal,

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Speaker 1: but first we got to take care of the Maronis.

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Speaker 1: How well. Taj Marony, scion of the Maroni family, just

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Speaker 1: happens to be addicted to social media. The guy and

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Speaker 1: he's an idiot. The guy is posting his location. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna go get him, which, by the way, I'll say

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Speaker 1: as a as a is a thing that happens in

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Speaker 1: La Guys get God because they post their location and

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Speaker 1: then and then not realizing that the streets are real

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Speaker 1: and they will get God. That way that happens.

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Speaker 2: He's doing the other classic like not realizing the streets

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Speaker 2: are real situation, which is like he's like boasting about

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Speaker 2: how high is like the Maroney's a coming back baby,

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Speaker 2: Like you're gonna get as a baby.

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Speaker 3: You don't. You ain't got a juice. You ain't got

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Speaker 3: the juice.

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Speaker 1: So Taj is at the tattoo parlor getting.

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Speaker 2: His It's like a ben Affleck Phoenix, which I was like,

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Speaker 2: is this unbelievable, Like this can't be a coincident.

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Speaker 1: And he's wearing his noise cancing headphones, so he does

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Speaker 1: not hear. Oz's guys take out everybody in the place

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Speaker 1: and let me just say, whatever brand those are banging apple,

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Speaker 1: I need him.

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Speaker 3: Because like five gunshots, like taking out headphones that they

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Speaker 3: could ever have.

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Speaker 1: Vic runs in, punches Taj a bunch of times in

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Speaker 1: the face. They take him away. Oz goes to black

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Speaker 1: Gate with the Proof of life little polaroid picture of

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Speaker 1: Taj all tied up. OZ makes a deal with Nadia

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Speaker 1: and Salvatore drugs for the sun. It's very simple, give

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Speaker 1: me the shroom, I give you the kid. The handoff

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Speaker 1: is set for the next morning. Not He is like,

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Speaker 1: I don't trust Oz.

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Speaker 3: She should yeah correct.

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Speaker 1: On his way out, Oz pays a guard to do.

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Speaker 3: I'm usually like, I can no bad choice, idiot. Move.

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Speaker 1: On the way out, he looks up, he sees a

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Speaker 1: TV news report All the Falcons are dead. Sophia the

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Speaker 1: loan survivor at Falcone manor so Via is surveying the carnage.

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Speaker 1: The cops are everywhere. They're you know, they're EMTs everybody.

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Speaker 1: They're bagging up the bodies. The chief police comes over

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Speaker 1: and he's asking about the kind of kind of a

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Speaker 1: kind of a lucky break. This ghas leak taking out

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Speaker 1: the entire Falcone family and somehow you survive in the

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Speaker 1: in the greenhouse, She's explaining, you know, there's a big

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Speaker 1: argument Luca's wife, something about Luca's wife, and so I

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Speaker 1: went to go with some peaceful nights sleep in the

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Speaker 1: in the greenhouse. What he thinks the whole thing is fishy,

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Speaker 1: the chief of police. She shuts him down, wondering why

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Speaker 1: the chief of police would come out here himself to

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Speaker 1: investigate something like this, see you worried about your payoffs? Like,

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Speaker 1: what's your problem? He's insists he's just doing his due diligence,

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Speaker 1: and he walks away, clearly honestly looking to see, hey,

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Speaker 1: are the payments going to continue? Is the relationship going

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Speaker 1: to continue? Sophia goes off.

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Speaker 2: He's like, whs Johnny vee And she's like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: think that had something to do with Luca's wife.

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Speaker 3: Maybe he left, you know, like Oh, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I was just looking off to my niece or my

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Speaker 2: cousin in the greenhouse.

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Speaker 1: So Sophia goes to the family crypt, where she has

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Speaker 1: Johnny Vett bound and chain in his tighty tidy grays.

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Speaker 1: They're not whities, but they're tight, tight, little Or. She

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Speaker 1: wants Ved to show her where the cash is. He knows, Listen,

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Speaker 1: my you know, uh, my dad and Luca probably had

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Speaker 1: a bunch of cash hidden around the man or somewhere

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Speaker 1: like yeah, like like Tony Soprano with the duck feed.

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Speaker 1: You know, remember when he had the cash and that

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Speaker 1: duck feed. Vidi says, listen, if you're gonna kill me,

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Speaker 1: just kill me, just get it over with whatever. She's like, No,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to do that. I'm going to keep

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Speaker 1: you down here in the dark and the very very cold,

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Speaker 1: frigid crypt. I'm gonna pour water on you, and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna wait till you break. Meanwhile, Oz's crew is at Eve's.

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Speaker 1: They've got they've got taj hold up at Eve's. They're

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Speaker 1: all watching the news wondering, uh what the death of

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Speaker 1: all the foul Clones means for them. Oz is like,

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Speaker 1: don't worry, about it to the guys, and then he

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Speaker 1: goes to Eve and he says, don't worry about it.

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Speaker 1: Eve's like, listen, they know my girls. They know my

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Speaker 1: girl's face because they were working to deal bliss at

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Speaker 1: the club. They know that. They're all involved.

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Speaker 3: And Nowes and.

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Speaker 1: The Maronis and Sofia and yeah, Sofia's into my house,

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Speaker 1: like what is going on? Like, you got to fix this.

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Speaker 1: He's like, don't worry, I'll fix it. Meanwhile, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: Taj is just in there with a bag on his

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Speaker 1: head and those noise canceling headphones, so don't worry. He

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Speaker 1: can't hear a thing. He's still got the noise canceling

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Speaker 1: headphone over the bag.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, him, I wonder what the playlist is.

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Speaker 1: Oz talks to his guys. He says, listen, don't worry

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Speaker 1: about the fuck cast. They never made us. They never

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Speaker 1: they never shared the wealth with us. With them out

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Speaker 1: of the way. Now, all we got to do is

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Speaker 1: take down to the Maroney's. This is going to be

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Speaker 1: actually easier now. And he's like, go get ready for

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Speaker 1: the handoff of Taj. He gives Vic a separate, very

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Speaker 1: sensitive job. He says, go upstate, Go get mom, and

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Speaker 1: you need to watch over. Sophia is down in the

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Speaker 1: crypt and she's just like teasing and trolling VD and

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Speaker 1: talking about all those kinds of shit, wondering when he's

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Speaker 1: gonna break and give up the goods. But instead, Ved

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Speaker 1: tells her that you know, on the night that your

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Speaker 1: father killed your mother, your mom was about to leave.

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Speaker 1: That's why he called her. She was gonna take off.

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Speaker 1: She had her bags packed, she was gonna flee with

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Speaker 1: you and the kids. I had a car ready for

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Speaker 1: I was gonna help her because she was my cousin.

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Speaker 1: But she didn't show up, and that's how I knew

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Speaker 1: she was dead. Sophia doesn't believe him. Ved then says, listen,

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Speaker 1: I feel tremendous guilt again. She was my cousin who

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Speaker 1: I loved very dearly. I introduced them, so I feel

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Speaker 1: like this is my fault. And then he makes his pitch.

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Speaker 1: He says, the money's not enough, Sophia, it's not enough.

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Speaker 1: You need the guys, you need the muscle, you need

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Speaker 1: the man power. I can get that for you through me.

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Speaker 1: I can pitch you as boss and get a sit

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Speaker 1: down with all the gang. I couldn't help your mother,

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Speaker 1: he says, but I can help you, Vic. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's a strong hit.

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Speaker 3: DoD B.

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Speaker 1: Listen, fuck everybody in this show. They're all terrible. But

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Speaker 1: like you know, it's a good pitch and we'll see

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Speaker 1: where it goes. Vic goes to Mom's and the place

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Speaker 1: is a mess. Clearly, uh, she is spiraling down. It's

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Speaker 1: unclear if she's been taking her meds. The stove is on,

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Speaker 1: the fridge is open. This place looks in a state

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Speaker 1: of very bad repair. She's in the back bedroom and

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Speaker 1: for a second she thinks that Vic is Oz, or

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Speaker 1: or if not Oz, maybe one on the broad because

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Speaker 1: she's got she's got the baseball glove out and we

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Speaker 1: know that wasn't Oz. Oz couldn't play baseball obviously, but

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Speaker 1: but she's clearly reminiscing about those old days. Vic introduces, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm Vic, and her demeanor becomes cold and business like,

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Speaker 1: and she's like, what do you want. We realize also

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Speaker 1: that Mom has been falling a lot. She's covered in bruises.

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Speaker 1: Mom Cob wants to know what's going on Oz, what's

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Speaker 1: up to and Vic gives her the update. Oz is

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Speaker 1: facing off against the Maroneys. The falconies are gone down,

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Speaker 1: taken out by down on their knees. Guess who took

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Speaker 1: them out? It was Oz.

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Speaker 2: I think this is a good move by Vick, honestly,

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Speaker 2: because this woman, it's nice, give us something to celebrate.

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Speaker 2: She might not remember tomorrow that you told her this,

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Speaker 2: so like, just yeah, let her enjoy it.

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Speaker 3: And she does celebrate. She is like, she's like, she's

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Speaker 3: loving it. She's she's loving it.

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Speaker 1: She's like, get the fuck out of here, really, and

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Speaker 1: Vic's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's why I'm here because

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Speaker 1: OZ sent me to, you know, take care of you.

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Speaker 1: And she is thrilled. Meanwhile, the Oz, the guard that

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Speaker 1: OZ bribed, goes into Maroni's cell and fucking stabs them

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Speaker 1: right in the guts and says, foolishly, I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: very stupid, this is from OZ and stabs them in

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Speaker 1: the gut.

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Speaker 2: Can I just say higher a taller prison God, have

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Speaker 2: you seen Clantcy Brown?

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Speaker 3: That man is built like a fucking brick wall. He's

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Speaker 3: so tall.

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Speaker 1: As soon as you have and you use the Kurgan

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Speaker 1: in Highlander, don't forget this guy.

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Speaker 2: Like this man, I see this tiny little prison guard

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Speaker 2: joking him with a little like what looks like a

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Speaker 2: homemade shank, and I'm like, this ain't gonna go well

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Speaker 2: for anyone.

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Speaker 1: It's like sell, second of all, you you're a prison guard.

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Speaker 1: You've been working here. You know how it goes. You

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Speaker 1: don't just you can't just stick it in. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: once you gotta go, you gotta multiple times. You got

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Speaker 1: to perforate the guy.

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Speaker 3: The prison is clearly corrupt.

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Speaker 2: We've seen that from the fact they let Salmaroni just

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Speaker 2: have his like little meetings with his with his wife

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Speaker 2: and his crew and everything.

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Speaker 3: So like, couldn't you just like smuggle in a weapon.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you didn't need to use like a

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Speaker 2: small shank, and you could have also, like you said,

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Speaker 2: perforate the man, Like come on.

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Speaker 1: You just what are you doing?

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Speaker 3: What are you doing?

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Speaker 4: Man?

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Speaker 1: Oz goes to the meet with Taj Uh and Nadia.

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Speaker 1: Nadia is there with one bodyguard as agreed upon. Oz

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Speaker 1: brings Taj and one of his previous drops, Operation hen Cheese.

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Speaker 1: He's uh, Taj is dripping wet, soaking wet in his

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Speaker 1: under He's soaking wet and and and you're thinking that's right,

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Speaker 1: and you so you're thinking, oh water like Johnny VD we'll.

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Speaker 3: Get boarding like some kind of torture.

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Speaker 1: I was like, where are the shrooms. They're over there

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Speaker 1: across the room, bagged up. It's like on the back

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Speaker 1: of a pickup truck. As soon as Oz sends Taj

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Speaker 1: over to Nadia, who wraps her arms around her son,

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Speaker 1: it's the double cross happens, and here comes the gunman

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Speaker 1: out of a side door. So the gunfight breaks out.

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Speaker 1: Oz and his guy take out the gunman, and then

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Speaker 1: Oz sets he lights his life and we realize that

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Speaker 1: that that Taj is drenched in gasoline or kerosene or something,

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Speaker 1: and they they go up and flames mother and son

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Speaker 1: and they and they die. It's terrible. They crumple to

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Speaker 1: the ground. Watches but truly horrific.

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Speaker 3: It's hard cool man, he's like crazy.

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Speaker 1: But the fire sets off.

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Speaker 3: The fire makes sense, that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: And and as that like whatever that stuff is that

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Speaker 1: powdery likes, you know, flame retardant substance comes out. It

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Speaker 1: sprays all over the shrooms, and Oz, remembering how sensitive

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Speaker 1: the shrooms are, like cover up the trunk. They get

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Speaker 1: out of there. They get in the in the pickup truck,

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Speaker 1: bust through the door. As the police is do do

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Speaker 1: do doa da.

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Speaker 3: Wow wow the time of the police.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Oz, you know, they drive a little bit away.

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Speaker 1: Oz goes and looks at the shrooms and guess what.

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Speaker 1: The flame retardan stuff wrecks all the ship just like.

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Speaker 3: That, almost like frozen.

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Speaker 1: They're just just crumbling gone, and Oz is like, fuck

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Speaker 1: except for two buckets of shrims. Who covered up? That's it.

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Speaker 1: That's all he's got is to two buckets of shrims.

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Speaker 1: The Sal calls while this is going on, and also

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Speaker 1: Oz picks up and goes, tell me something good.

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Speaker 2: So you can't even pretend like someone else set up

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Speaker 2: that you make him look bad like he he's just

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Speaker 2: admitted that he tried to have Sal killed and sounds like, bro,

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Speaker 2: I'm alive, I'm alive.

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Speaker 1: I guess your guy's dead. Your guy's dead. And guess what,

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Speaker 1: I'm out of jail. And then he says and I'm

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Speaker 1: never gonna stop looking for you. Oz. You're cook And

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Speaker 1: Austen says, oh, I've cooked. That's interesting because I just

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Speaker 1: cooked your wife And sudden.

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Speaker 3: What Carl, what the I could my jaw dude draw?

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Speaker 3: And Barrel's little face when when when? When Maroney said like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you're cooked. His little face is like really like I cooked.

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Speaker 3: It's like, oh you are?

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Speaker 2: You are in trouble, bro I that was so.

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Speaker 1: Incredible, right, I could not believe it. Oz calls Vic

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Speaker 1: because like, your mom is fine, she's just sleeping. Oz

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Speaker 1: is like, listen, the heat is on. Now, Okay, there's

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Speaker 1: gold hidden in the house. Take it, take her meds,

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Speaker 1: get mom out of there anywhere that's they won't look

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Speaker 1: for her. I don't have a place, I don't have

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Speaker 1: a backup place. You're just gonna have to figure it out.

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Speaker 2: I feel like, oh, I feel like this is a

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Speaker 2: weak spot in oz Is planning. It's like he literally

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Speaker 2: sleeps behind a giant safe door. I feel like he

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Speaker 2: should have had a couple of other like safe houses

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Speaker 2: or plans.

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Speaker 3: But you know what, he's really piecy. He's a man.

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Speaker 3: He plays it. He's playing it by aa.

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Speaker 1: He's playing it by ear. And you make a good point.

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Speaker 1: But I think this is this shows you that oz

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Speaker 1: Oz was on the come up. He's put he's invested

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Speaker 1: everything he has into making this move. The Maserati's gone.

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Speaker 1: He can't go back to his apartment, where one would

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Speaker 1: assume he's got some guns and money stashed. He's got

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Speaker 1: like just what's in his pocket right now and the

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00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:34,399
Speaker 1: gold from the mom's house. Like he's really just like hustling. Yeah, uh,

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00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,320
Speaker 1: and we're hustling as well. We'll be right back after

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Speaker 1: a word from these from our sponsors. Sophia is h

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Speaker 1: goes to the aster closet where Carmines clothes and her

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Speaker 1: mom's clothes are still hidden up. She's smelling her mom's scent,

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Speaker 1: trying to get a whiff of moms sent Doctor Rush

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00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,600
Speaker 1: comes in. What the fuck is doctor Rush doing here?

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00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 1: He says, listen to this crazy bitch, this little bitch.

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Speaker 1: But let's be honest, Sophia needs a little bit right now.

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Speaker 1: She needs she needs, she needs a bitch with a

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Speaker 1: fucking collar around his neck. And doctor Rush.

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Speaker 3: She's like, I'm gonna be that bitch.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Rush comes in, sits up and says, wolf Wolf, Wolf,

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Speaker 1: I will do whatever you want. What do you want? Master?

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Speaker 1: And honestly that's appealing to Sophia right like he missed,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'll do I'll do as told. Sophia comes

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Speaker 1: downstairs wearing her Mafia queen costume, big fur coat which

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Speaker 1: was Bomb's.

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Speaker 3: And Isabella Jigante in the side.

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Speaker 1: She goes to meet the gang. Here's all the street

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Speaker 1: level guys. This is not the maid guys, not the Coppos,

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Speaker 1: this is the street guys. VD is there. He's called

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Speaker 1: all these guys together, and she sits at the head

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Speaker 1: of the table with VD at her right hand, and

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00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 1: she says, let's get it ei of the way. I

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00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 1: killed everybody. I killed Luca, I killed Luca's wife killed.

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Speaker 3: I love you so much.

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Speaker 1: This is such a everybody. All the Coppos they're gone,

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Speaker 1: now gone, fuck them. And here's what I have to

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00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,200
Speaker 1: offer you. A come up. My family threw me away

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Speaker 1: like a piece of garbage. And that's what they would

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00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,400
Speaker 1: have done to you, because they never were gonna make you.

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Speaker 1: You're not gonna be made guys. You were gonna be

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Speaker 1: cannon fodder. I'm not gonna treat you like that. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna make peace with the Maronis. I'm not gonna waste

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Speaker 1: your lives in some senseless war with the Maronis, and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take over this town. And Vid he's like, well,

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00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 1: the Bardi, we do have to take out the Maroni's no,

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00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,200
Speaker 1: and then she just fucking blows up, she shoots them

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00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,639
Speaker 1: in the face, shoots Jonathan baked zd ved below. This

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00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 1: is fucking Marinera's sauce all over the table, Bob. And

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00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 1: then like pat Riley making his pitch to Lebron when

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00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,639
Speaker 1: he threw the championship riggs on the table, she gets

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00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,119
Speaker 1: the bag of money that Johnny bakes Z DVD got

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00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 1: her and she tumps it on the table and she says,

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Speaker 1: my family never shared the falcon The Falcone family never

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00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 1: shared with you. Well, guess what. Its not the Falcone

355
00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,640
Speaker 1: family anymore. It's the Giganti family, my mother's name. And

356
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 1: in the Giganti family, we shared a wealth. Guys take

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00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 1: the money in there, they agree they're part of it.

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Speaker 1: And doctor Rush is back there at the back of

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00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,640
Speaker 1: the room and he is bricked up. Let me tell

360
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 1: you he is like he's like woof, woof, wolf rolls

361
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:55,680
Speaker 1: over on his back and he's like pet me on

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00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,399
Speaker 1: the belly. So he I love it.

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00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 2: This is definitely, like really interesting because in the comics

364
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 2: she is Sophia Gigante at some points, but that's to

365
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 2: do with who she marries. So I like here that

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00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 2: they make it about her mom and it's this kind

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00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 2: of like reclamation from Carmine.

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00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 3: Very cool.

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00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,360
Speaker 2: I'm very interested to see where this doctor Rush thing

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00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 2: goes to.

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00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,160
Speaker 3: Could be really interesting to see. But yeah, great scene.

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00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 2: This is actually gonna be my Halloween costume this year

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Speaker 2: because I love Sophia Falcony and I want to wear

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Speaker 2: a big fake fo coat.

375
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 1: Vic takes Mom Cob to Crown Point because Crownpoint, which

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00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 1: we get to see as he pulls in, is in

377
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 1: a fucking state. Yeah, it's a it is.

378
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 3: They have not over nothing, nothing, Fema.

379
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 1: Oh does not dare set foot in this way like

380
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 1: it is dangerous. Squid is out in the streets doing

381
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,879
Speaker 1: crime out and the open cars turned over like a

382
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 1: storefront's wreck. It's bad here. Yeah, and I think Vic

383
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 1: kind of wisely understanes. Nobody's gonna look for you here.

384
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 1: Viccy's Squid and he's like, Mom Cob, just come on,

385
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 1: hurry up. We gotta get inside before Squid.

386
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 5: Start this nerve wracking moment, like Squid spots them, Yeah,

387
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 5: because you're watching them and they're sneaking behind him and

388
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 5: he's smoking a cigarette and it's like you're in Arkham

389
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,360
Speaker 5: in the games and you're trying.

390
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 2: To like sneak around the city. But then just as

391
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: Vic is kind of finally managing to get her through

392
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 2: the door, Squid sees him. Obviously, this is gonna and bad.

393
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 1: It's gonna be a problem. This is gonna come back

394
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 1: on them. Mom Cob hates the east Side, hates, does

395
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 1: not like this shithole. It reminds her of her own past.

396
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: She raised her sons in this very same neighborhood, not

397
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: far from here, in a place that looks just like this.

398
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: And then she says something that I think Vic feels

399
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 1: it really resonates with him. He says, she says, this

400
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: neighborhood will take everything from you.

401
00:22:59,240 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

402
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: Osgar to Eves, He's he's fucking panicked. He is a mess.

403
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: He's like, it's time to lamb out. We gotta get

404
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: out of here. We gotta go to the ground. I

405
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: got a spot by the zoo, by the zoo, I

406
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: got a spot by the zoo that nobody knows about.

407
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: We can lamb out there. And he was like, are

408
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: you fucking crazy? I got my business, I got the girls.

409
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 3: She can see that. It's like it's time to let

410
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 3: go of She's like to do this.

411
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: Oz loses it you turn on me. This is it.

412
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 1: I thought it was gonna beat you would be. And

413
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 1: she knows Eves a smart cookie, she knows exactly how

414
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: to soothe his egos.

415
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 3: I love this moment. She's just baby, No like you.

416
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: First of all, you're gonna come out on top. Everybody

417
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 1: knows that you're smart. But I'm just gonna be slowing

418
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: you down right now. You need to make moves, and

419
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: you can't make moves trying to trying to watch out

420
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: for me. And this this steadies Oz and he's able

421
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 1: to go out and and uh, you know, head head

422
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 1: back out and check on Meanwhile, Maroni is hold up

423
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: somewhere out in the woods in a cabin, like in

424
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: a fucking unibomber style.

425
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, like eating some fucking cold Italian food.

426
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: Cold, fucking he's like crying. Chef Boyard straight of the

427
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: can and he's like, look at it, a picture of

428
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: his recently cooked wife and son. They're they, you know,

429
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,479
Speaker 1: they at least are warm. Not this Chef boy Ard.

430
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: Out of the can. He's and he's he's crying, he's

431
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: weeping in the gun shouts outside and here's Sofia. Sophia

432
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 1: says this sucks, Right, I got something better. How about

433
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: you and me against Oz? We take him down? Yeah,

434
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: peace in our time?

435
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 2: Right?

436
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,479
Speaker 1: Did you Gantes and the Maronis together?

437
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 3: Why keep this going? Like what's the fucking point? Like

438
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 3: you hate my dad? I hate my dad.

439
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: I hate my dad, and I'm in charge now. And

440
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: it's not the Falcones. You had a problem with the Falcones.

441
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 1: You don't have a problem with me. We're the candies.

442
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: And also as want to like, guess what, Oz, he's

443
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 2: betrayed us both, he's made it. Let's just let's just

444
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 2: do it up, baby, and mister crabs Clancy Brown, he's

445
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 2: looking at her and he's thinking about it, and it's like,

446
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 2: sounds like that could be potential here.

447
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 1: That's right. Oz goes to the hideout and Crown Point

448
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: and he Vic is asleep. He creeps past Vic and

449
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: he creeps into bed with Mom.

450
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 3: And getting into bed with your mom.

451
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: Feelings cuddling. He needs emotional support right now, and he

452
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: insists to mom Cobb this is temporary. We're only just

453
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: hiding out here. But we're good. We're on the come up,

454
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 1: I promise you, And she says you're a big dreamer,

455
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: like your daddy says, no, I'm not like him. We

456
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: don't know what happened, but clearly it was not good,

457
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: and Mom Cob is like, get off me. Vic wakes

458
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: up and is apologetic, but Oz is like that, no, no,

459
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: you did good. Bringing her here was smart. I get

460
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 1: where you're coming from. Vic then asks about the brothers.

461
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 2: Which implies I think that, like mom Cobb has kind

462
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 2: of been talking about him. Yeah, and it's interesting because

463
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: we see this disconnect between Oz and his mom in

464
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 2: this episode, but I do think they hint that her

465
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: and Vicker getting close up. I also think it's really interesting,

466
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: like we see that whether it's illness or whether it's

467
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 2: just who she is, she is like quite cruel, Like

468
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: OZ says to her, like I feel like I let

469
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: you down, and she's like you.

470
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 3: Did you did? Like she is obviously not a loving,

471
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 3: like carrying woman.

472
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,239
Speaker 1: Oz basically says the city took my brothers. Whether that

473
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: means like child protector services or the streets, it's kind

474
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: of unclear, right, yeah, but and us kind of ruse

475
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: the weakness that he had it that you know, that

476
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: kind of marked him at the time. He wasn't he

477
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: was wasn't strong enough to do anything about the brothers.

478
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: Oz then takes this reminds Oz of something, and he

479
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 1: takes Victor an abandoned trolley station that his him, my

480
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: brothers used to have fun in, and you know immediately

481
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: as they go down there, this is it. This is

482
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: gonna be.

483
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

484
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: The penguins hideout.

485
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 3: It's humid, it's kind of dripping with water.

486
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,719
Speaker 2: Perfect, it feels like it's giving at least a little

487
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: of the timber, and Batman returns very much kind of

488
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 2: under the zoo. I also love this because we've so

489
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 2: often in this show the focus has been on grounding,

490
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 2: even though where we're having people like gas their own families, Like,

491
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: there's outrageous stuff, but it's definitely in that grounded world.

492
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 3: And I love these moments in the Matt.

493
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 2: Reeves Batman Epic Crime Universe or whatever they're calling it, Like,

494
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: I love these moments where we get the hints of

495
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 2: the comic book origins, like the lair, and the lair

496
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 2: is in the old trolley system, and obviously it's wet

497
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 2: and warm down there, so perfect to grow some mushrooms.

498
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: It's also a perfect I mean, you mentioned it, and

499
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: I thought of I thought this myself. It's Oh, you

500
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: think I'm going to the zoo. No, this is a

501
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 1: separate thing. I'm in different Oz, I'm a different penguin.

502
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 1: This is a different story and I love that. Yeah.

503
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: And so there's a working generator out there. They get

504
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 1: the lights on and they're going to grow the shrooms here.

505
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: This is going to be ground zero for the penguin operation.

506
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 2: And they're little like you can just see in this moment,

507
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 2: they've got this little fire between them, like, oh, it's

508
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 2: working where they can happen, like things can happen for us.

509
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 2: And I'm just like, guys, it's got them, guys, it's

510
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 2: never gonna go Well, so you've seen the end.

511
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: I have not.

512
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: No, no, I have not seen the end.

513
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 3: No, no, No, it's just Joellen Common, Just Joellen Common.

514
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: We're playing. So I've only seen.

515
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: This is a perfect point, at a turning point. Three

516
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: episodes to go hit. We've hit that kind of turning

517
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: point in the story where Oz is at his lowest

518
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: and he can only build up from here. Predictions where

519
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: do you think this story goes?

520
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: I think that Oz does get the shrooms going. I

521
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: think that's going to be successful for him. I think

522
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: that we're going to end the season with Oz in

523
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: a place where he can be a true villain for.

524
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 3: The Batman too. I think he's going to be a

525
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 3: major player.

526
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: I think I hope that whatever happens between Sophia and sal,

527
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: I want Sophia to be in The Batman too.

528
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 3: I think that Christin Melotti.

529
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: Is so fantastic and I just absolutely adore her and

530
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: want to see more of that character. And I think

531
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: having Sophia as the main crime boss fighting against Oz

532
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: would be incredible.

533
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 3: So that's more of like a what I want.

534
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: I am not feeling great about Victor's chances of survival.

535
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: I love him, I feel, I said, very very sadly,

536
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: especially because very very very sadly, I mean sadly say

537
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: with Rerenzy Phillies, he's so fantastic you just want more

538
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: of him in this world.

539
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 3: But they released a poster recently that, obviously, to people.

540
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: Like us, is supposed to be evocative of Jason Todd,

541
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: and we've already talked about how much of a Robin

542
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: he feels like this character could be.

543
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 3: I would have loved to see that transition for him.

544
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: Maybe I think he's kind of in a Tim Drake mold,

545
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 2: but I doubt that will happen. And they released a

546
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: poster where it was Vic and then his shadow had

547
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: somebody behind him holding a tire iron. Now, somebody pointed

548
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: out vic dad was a mechanic, so maybe it's to

549
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 2: do with that, but I think that that is evocative

550
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: of Jason Todd and they want us to know where

551
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: this could go. And also, many moons ago, when the

552
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 2: first Batman movie came out, Robert Pattinson said he wanted

553
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: to do Robin and Batman, but he wanted Robin to

554
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: be like a kid, right like ten eleven twelve. Now

555
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: they are saying the rumors abound that they are going

556
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: to have a Robin in the Batman too. So I

557
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: think it's a very interesting parallel for Penguin to have

558
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: had his own sidekick. Yeah, but yeah, I want Vic

559
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: to keep going. I love Frenzy. I love this role.

560
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: But my gut is saying, especially as they end in

561
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: such a like victorious way in this episode where it's

562
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: like the two of them together and they're making it happen,

563
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: that doesn't bode well for me.

564
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 3: What about you?

565
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 1: Here's where I feel like we end with Sophia on

566
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: top new crime boss in Gotham City, Vic sadly dead.

567
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: I feel like the streets need a sacrifice, and the

568
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: Penguin established in his headquarters still the scrappy upstart, very dangerous,

569
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: but not at the head of any family. Just a guy,

570
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: just the peng, a drug lord running his own gang.

571
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, like does some kind of alliance between

572
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: Sofia and the and the Penguin makes sense, some sort

573
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: of very very still.

574
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: Maybe kind of situation where she's like, as long as

575
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 2: you stay underground, like I won't kill you, you know,

576
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: if there's some kind of benefit to that. Okay, So

577
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: how far I'm very interested because I love the costuming

578
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: in this show and I think it's absolutely just fantastic.

579
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: How far do you think that? Do you think will

580
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: end this season with like Oz wearing like a tuxedo?

581
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: Do you think they're gonna lean into the more visual

582
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: aspects of the Penguin as they've kind of leaned into

583
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: Sofia's kind of mafia queen.

584
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: Look, I don't know. I could see that happening. If

585
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: Oz makes a pitch to the like disaffected members of

586
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: the Maronis, this is what you want to do. You

587
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: want to follow a falcone, She causes, Candy, whatever a falcon,

588
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: Give me a fucking break. You're gonna bow to a falcone.

589
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: That's what you want to do? Bullshit, Come with me.

590
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: Let's get revenge. Now. If if that happens and he

591
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: puts himself at the top of like a reconstituted Maroney family,

592
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: I could see that. I could see him in the.

593
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: Tucks, see him a bit smart, a bit like yeah.

594
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: Uh, but I kind of don't think that will happen.

595
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 3: I like, I like, yeah, I'm excited to what happens.

596
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: I like your idea of Sophia and Top and Oz

597
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: almost is this like underworld crime boss still having to

598
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: work his way back to the surface.

599
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this show is awesome.

600
00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: I need Emmy's costume designer who we speak to on

601
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: this episode, Helen Huang Emmys. I need to make up

602
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 2: people to be getting Emmy's Emmy's Emmys.

603
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 3: Like, I don't want to see any of.

604
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: This superhero TV being seen as some kind of underclass

605
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: of TV.

606
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 3: This is such a fantastically made show.

607
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: I think it's opening the world up to many other people.

608
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: I actually saw that the fourth episode was the highest

609
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 2: viewed episode.

610
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 1: There's there's a buzz now, like I see people talking

611
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, I say this, this show makes me

612
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: very excited for what the Daredevil board again show could be.

613
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: Oh could Oh?

614
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 3: Also, I like that because this is going to have

615
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 3: to put a fire in their belly.

616
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: Yes, say, hey we can. We can take it up

617
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: a notch in you know, quality wise, drama wise, Like

618
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 1: there is there's a level that can be re by

619
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: really kind of doubling down on street level. I feel like,

620
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, I liked a lot of the Netflix stuff.

621
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: I am a I can't believe we're gonna admit this.

622
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: I'm a Defender's apologist. I think The Defenders is good.

623
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 2: Look most like that casting is incredible. I am still.

624
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: Here's a problem, there's a I wish we could get

625
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: Daughters of a Dragon series.

626
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 3: I love the Misty casting.

627
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: I love what they did with those two characters specifically. Yeah,

628
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I would love to see like a real

629
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 2: street level Marvel show.

630
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: I can't believe that you revealed, but I think The

631
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: Defenders is actually there's some it's pretty good.

632
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: I still my dream is that they still will bring Khalei.

633
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 2: I want them to bring the act to play Colleen

634
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: back and have her be I am. I think that

635
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: Jessicamwick should be brought back and be iron fist. I

636
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 2: think that would be like such a good casting awesome. Yeah,

637
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 2: so I'm like, let's do that. But yeah, I agree

638
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 2: with you. They've they've touched on what can be great

639
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: about Street Level. But I hope it's a fire in

640
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: their belly as I believe they're still doing reshoots and

641
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 2: kind of reconstituting the show, and I hope it makes

642
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 2: them think like, wow, we can do something that people

643
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 2: are we.

644
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: Can we can get really Yeah, we can do something

645
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: really really really cool. Well up next or Penguin. Our

646
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: conversation with the Penguin costume designer Helen Wang. Helen, thank

647
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us.

648
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 4: Oh it's a pleasure.

649
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're so happy to have you here.

650
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.

651
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: The the costumes in the wardrobe for the Penguin are

652
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 1: just feel so important for giving it a sense of

653
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: place and personality. And I think you know one thing

654
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: I've noticed from your work and being a fan of

655
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: the various shows that you've worked on, including Beef, which

656
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: you've recently went on Emmy four and Station eleven. Is

657
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: this feeling of a lived in world, like everything looks

658
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: like folks have been wearing this stuff. Talk about your approach.

659
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 4: I always try to first, you know, they send you

660
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 4: the script, but I try to understand the tone of

661
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 4: what I'm doing first. And I have particular things I'm

662
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 4: interested in in costuming, and I try to sink the

663
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 4: two of them up and see if I could bring

664
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 4: that the things I'm interested in into particular projects. And

665
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 4: so in this one, you know, when they set me

666
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 4: the information and when I talk to a little and

667
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 4: the showrunner, it was very much like French Connection Scarface,

668
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 4: you know, clue to those type of seventies references, and

669
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 4: also the movie. I was a big fan of The Batman,

670
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 4: and I just felt it was very cinematic, and those

671
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 4: references are cinematic. And also I feel quite emotional, and

672
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 4: so when I was doing research, I viewed it as

673
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 4: a place without time, and so I looked at a

674
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 4: lot of vintage photographs from Jamal Schebaz to Frank Horvat

675
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 4: to Richard Sandler. So people who like really took pictures

676
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 4: in the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties. In New York

677
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 4: for sort of the tone of the Gotham that I

678
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 4: wanted to do, and obviously I do want and I

679
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 4: think the lived inness is a couple of things. Obviously,

680
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 4: you need to have enough of crew so you have

681
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 4: a good age you're dher because that's what really matters

682
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 4: at the end, because they have to touch the objects

683
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 4: that you make or bring in. But also I think

684
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 4: the lived in look is more if you find for me,

685
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 4: if it's like when you really find the character, you

686
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 4: find a way to sync up with them, then that's

687
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 4: when the audience really view your work as being organic

688
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 4: and of a place. And of course when you're doing characters,

689
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 4: they have to fit within the world and then that's

690
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 4: the cohesion that you really want. And so that was

691
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 4: my approach. That's my approach to everything and anything, you know.

692
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 4: And then also I look at narrative, you know. For

693
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 4: this particular project, it was very much about institutions and

694
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 4: how institutions fail people and how crime is a way

695
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 4: of people in certain economic circumstances as upward mobility, and

696
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 4: I really identified with that and I really wanted to

697
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 4: show that element and I was very interested in it.

698
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 4: And so you know, those are definitely the type of

699
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 4: themes I think about when I look for images and

700
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 4: when I piece together what I want this world to

701
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 4: look like through clothes.

702
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you kind of you touched on this a

703
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 2: little bit there. But something that I think is really

704
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: interesting in this project is that journey of upward mobility

705
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 2: for Oz. Let's say, like, what is it like kind

706
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: of taking him from and costuming him from the driver

707
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: to the unmade man to the aspiring mob boss, Like,

708
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: could you talk a little bit about the changes within

709
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: his suit, the things that the untrained I might not notice.

710
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 4: Well, we actually did go backwards because you know, obviously

711
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 4: that episode where he was the driver was in a

712
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 4: later episode. Yeah, in the beginning when we looked at Oz,

713
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 4: Colin and I talked a lot about how to do

714
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 4: this character so he's not costume, and because he didn't

715
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 4: want him to, he wanted to have a fine line

716
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 4: because obviously, you know, if you're in the Batman world,

717
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 4: there is a certain obligation to be a little bit

718
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 4: larger than life. But we really wanted to walk that line.

719
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 4: And with Oz's suits, I like to think of it

720
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 4: as a contrast to the falcones. So I really viewed

721
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 4: the falcones as institutionalized crime. So I looked at a

722
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 4: lot of European influences for them, and a lot of

723
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 4: sort of old money references from the nineteen sixties of

724
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,479
Speaker 4: New York and Manhattan. And then with Oz, we thought,

725
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 4: you know, here was a man who covets style and

726
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 4: really wants that. And then also, I you know, when

727
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 4: I first read him on the pages, I thought, this

728
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 4: guy has a very distinct idea of what masculinity looks like,

729
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 4: and you know what men kind of look like. And

730
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 4: so even from his suits, he has that approach, and

731
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 4: so he doesn't really dress outside of the box, but

732
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 4: he does feel that he only fits into a certain

733
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 4: silhouette to make himself more masculine in this world, and

734
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 4: you know, his suits are reflection of that. So we

735
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 4: had really strong shoulders. If you look at his lapel,

736
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 4: we really looked at how wide his lapel should be,

737
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 4: and if you look at it, it's not a contemporary lapel.

738
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 4: It's more of a nineteen seventies lapel. And we tried

739
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 4: to make him almost like a triangle shape, you know,

740
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 4: an upside down triangle shape, where it's very strong shoulders.

741
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 4: And then because of his physique, he wants to illusion

742
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 4: the eye to narrow down, and so we tailored his

743
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 4: suits closer to the bodies to the when it hits

744
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 4: him at the waist. He has bigger collars to sort

745
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 4: of proportion out his face. And you know, he wears

746
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 4: really pointed shoes even though he has the club foot,

747
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 4: to really give it that elongated element. And so we

748
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 4: really thought about how to subtly make his like how

749
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 4: subtly he would think about his suit, almost overthink his suit.

750
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 4: But then he would come in with these fabrics that

751
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 4: aren't the patterns that falcones would, you know, want to wear,

752
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 4: or the colors that they would want to wear. So

753
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 4: he feels definitely more new money and they feel more

754
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 4: old money. He's a wanna be there already there. They're

755
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 4: like easy elegance. They're like Picasso in Spain. He's like,

756
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 4: you know, try hard, try hard, suit man. And so

757
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 4: we thought a lot about that, and then when we went.

758
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: Back to.

759
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 4: Him as a driver, we made him a really cheap

760
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 4: suit like we got like wool Polly. We made the

761
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 4: lapels really small and modern because he did not have

762
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,760
Speaker 4: the money to make those suits. You know, his tie

763
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 4: was from Macy's. We picked the cheapest, yeah, sort of

764
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,439
Speaker 4: viscos with you know, his shirt's definitely not cotton, it's

765
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 4: definitely synthetic. And so we tried really hard to sort

766
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 4: of subtly put those elements in. And I did, through

767
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 4: this project, learn a lot about men's tailoring and how

768
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 4: because of certain expectations of men their clothes, the proportions

769
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 4: are very slight and the changes are very slight, and

770
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 4: the fabrication is a big deal. And so you have

771
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 4: to really sort of study that and watch that as

772
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 4: you're putting men next to men and sort of telling

773
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 4: that story.

774
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to go back to the you mentioned the

775
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: age age or dyer I think is the term. Yes,

776
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: And I think you know, we we we watched a

777
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: lot of TV. Sure you do, and and we've all

778
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: had the experience of watching something where it just feels like,

779
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: my gosh, it feels like this wardrobe just came off

780
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: in the back and they just put it on. So

781
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: what technically, what are the technical aspects of creating these

782
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: garments so that they look like these characters have been

783
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:02,439
Speaker 1: wearing them for a time.

784
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 4: Oh my god, good agreed, Dyers are like magicians. You

785
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 4: it's like it's one of It's like having a good

786
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 4: tailor and a good agre dyer and a good buyer

787
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 4: is like one of the three temples of having a

788
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 4: successful project, you know that and a really really good ACD.

789
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 4: But they take your car. So if it's like a

790
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 4: made garment, they will sometimes wash it. If it's washable,

791
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 4: they'll wash it several times to get whatever look they desire.

792
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 4: They paint into them to get a patina of things

793
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 4: that are older. They sand, they you know, they it's

794
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 4: basically alchemy. They have different types of waxes that they

795
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 4: put in there. They put little highlights on clothes and

796
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 4: to look like they've been worn, you know, and the

797
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 4: edges are afraid. You know, if I have an all

798
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 4: black garment that comes in and it needs to look

799
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 4: like someone's wear, they'll spray it with a fine mist

800
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 4: of something that like is a hint of gray. And

801
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 4: then it's like you don't even notice until you put

802
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 4: two garments like together, like if you have multiples, and

803
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 4: you're like, wow, that makes a hell of a difference.

804
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 4: They put rocks in the pockets. They string up the

805
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 4: garments so it'll have it'll have all the folds in

806
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 4: the arms, they'll weigh things down. I mean, it's it's

807
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 4: literally the most amazing thing. They do, all the rolls

808
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 4: on the sweater, so when you view it on screen

809
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 4: it looks like some of them's more. I don't know,

810
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 4: it's it's magic. And then also they die. They die

811
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 4: every fabric to the color that I want when I

812
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 4: want to make something, I cannot speak enough about the

813
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 4: craft and the talent level that goes into something like that.

814
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really comes across in a show like this too,

815
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 2: where the clothes talk so loudly about who the characters are,

816
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 2: and I guess what was it like for you? Then

817
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 2: I want to get Sophia, but I'm saving her because

818
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 2: she's just so wonderful. So I want to talk a

819
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: little bit about Vic because his costumes are so different.

820
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: So when you go to someone like Vic who's meant

821
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 2: to be younger, like he didn't have these aspirations before,

822
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 2: it's just living in what he could take with him

823
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 2: when he disaster happened, how do you show his world

824
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 2: in his clothes.

825
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 3: And kind of how it changes when he meets Oz.

826
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 4: So for Vic, I really wanted in the beginning for

827
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 4: him to contrast Oz's very sharp lines and tailoring, and

828
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 4: so we so if Oz is sort of a more

829
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 4: seventies silhouette, we gave Vic a very nineties silhouette, early

830
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 4: nineties silhouette, and we wanted him to feel almost like

831
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 4: he's encompassed and clothes, but also his clothes. He wore

832
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 4: the same outfit for almost the first three episodes, and

833
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 4: so we really try to layer him in a way

834
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 4: that would make sense if he's so if his character

835
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 4: decides to take layers off. Vic is very nostalgic to me,

836
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 4: and so I felt, and also speaking of Oz, he

837
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 4: thinks masculinity is a certain way. Vic does not feel

838
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 4: that he's.

839
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 3: Younger, you know.

840
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 4: And I also view that he probably has like his

841
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 4: dad's hand me downs that you know, his dad doesn't

842
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 4: wear and he thought it was cool now and things

843
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 4: like that. But I am a big fan of the

844
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 4: nineties starter jacket, I don't.

845
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: Know, still a big fig fan.

846
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 4: So I love them so much, and I love sportswear

847
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 4: in any way, and I feel like they're under they're

848
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 4: underserved in anything of this type of world. It's like

849
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 4: they just forget that there's sportswear or something, and so

850
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 4: we bought a lot of vintage items for him, and

851
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 4: we took the pains to make the starter jacket from scratch.

852
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 4: So everything was from scratch, everything was dyed from ratch.

853
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 4: It took us a millionaires to get the details right,

854
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 4: the fit right. The inside jacket is based off of

855
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 4: an old Fila jacket and that's also made from scratch,

856
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 4: and we made it red so then it's like the

857
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 4: little pop of color. And then also between Oz and Vic,

858
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 4: we did want Vic to feel like there's slightly more

859
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 4: color variation in him, where Oz feels very controlled in

860
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 4: his color palette. And then even on the inside you

861
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 4: don't even really get to see it. But when he's like,

862
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 4: you know, digging the grave for bodies, we made him

863
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 4: we made him a Gotham City basketball shirt. Yeah, and

864
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 4: it was like a face Gotham team, because I was like,

865
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 4: in the real world, kids like that would wear sports

866
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 4: where they would have a basketball team. He would wear that.

867
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 4: It's natural, even like down to you know, you never

868
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 4: see it because he didn't get to that. But like

869
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 4: his tank top was like something that we remade to

870
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 4: resemble like a nineteen seventies tank top. So we did

871
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 4: take so much care with him. And for me, he's

872
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 4: he's a black and brown character in a world of

873
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 4: comic books that deserves a lot of attention and a

874
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 4: lot of care, And I wanted to put as much

875
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,439
Speaker 4: research and as much effort into what he wears as

876
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 4: I do a Oz or Sophia. I really felt that

877
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 4: it was necessary.

878
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Yeah, obviously comes from such a hierarchical

879
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: world that's divided by gender. Also, yes, talk to us

880
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: about what about Sophia's look and the thing that she's

881
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: trying to present herself at the different looks that she's shown.

882
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 4: So with Sophia, I always feel a great, big responsibility

883
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 4: for female characters, especially female characters in a world like this,

884
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 4: because I feel like people have gotten used to how

885
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 4: female carea just look in a world like this. And

886
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 4: for me, it was very much about and you hit

887
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 4: it on the nose, is like, she's a female in

888
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 4: this world, and so the thought was she is dressed

889
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 4: like how they think that she would be dressed, so

890
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 4: her femininity against their masculiness, how you know, like they

891
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 4: use her as a forward, presenting, legitimate phase of their organization,

892
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 4: right you know, she's polished, she does the charity work,

893
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:38,720
Speaker 4: she speaks, you know, she legitimizes them, but she's still female.

894
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 4: But I didn't want to do the traditional sort of

895
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:47,479
Speaker 4: like tight female kind of thing. And you know, some

896
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:51,240
Speaker 4: of those elegant looks feel odd against you know, Kristen

897
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 4: who's younger, who's a younger actress, and they didn't really

898
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 4: give her the oomph that she deserves, you know. And

899
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 4: so I started looking like a lot of images of

900
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 4: Edie Sedgwick from the nineteen sixties, so socialites who have

901
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 4: like a little bit of a rebellious edge. And I

902
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 4: really like the shorter silhouettes because there's something very girly

903
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 4: about the sixties but very rebellious about that time. It's

904
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 4: like femininity but with a wink, you know.

905
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

906
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 4: And then I looked at a series of photographs by

907
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 4: Peter Lindenberg for Harper's Bazaar. The model was Kate Moss

908
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 4: in the nineteen ninety four and it was like nineties

909
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:38,720
Speaker 4: minimalism does Sixties, and I just it like blew my mind,

910
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 4: and I was like, this is it, you know. And

911
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 4: so her first white suit is based off of a

912
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 4: Karage nineteen sixties reference. So we did that for her

913
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 4: because they really wanted her to come in not looking

914
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 4: frazzled or like she just came out of Arkham. They

915
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 4: really wanted her to be contained and like Oz, you know,

916
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 4: doesn't know where her mind's at, that type of unknown

917
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 4: ingnus so really polished, you know, but in an unusual way.

918
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 4: Then as the series progressed, like you know, in the

919
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 4: first episode, she wore like a vintage or Metz trench coat.

920
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 4: We did a lot of vintage shopping for her. I

921
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 4: think seventy percent of her costumes were all vintage, and

922
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 4: then a big portion of it was made, so it

923
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 4: was like made plus vintage, and then we did do

924
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 4: some newer things. But towards the middle, you know, everything

925
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,760
Speaker 4: got kind of wild, and so we use like vintage

926
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 4: Marnie things that have a lot more texture. Nineteen sixties

927
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 4: LeMay dresses, the heels got higher. She was not wearing

928
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 4: it and heels any more. You know, before it was

929
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 4: like Selena and Rmez, and towards the end it was

930
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 4: like Marnie in nineteen sixties, you know, rebellious dresses. Towards

931
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 4: the end it was like Vivian Westwood, a lot of

932
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 4: Vivian Westwood and you know, like Drea's van Noten, because

933
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 4: we really wanted to give her, especially in her coats,

934
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 4: to give her huge dimension. So it's almost as if

935
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 4: she's like changing shape in front of.

936
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: Growing.

937
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 4: And then of course in the end, you know, it's

938
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 4: we wanted to do, you know, bookend, iconic non color,

939
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 4: iconic color, you know at the end, and that was built,

940
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 4: that was built from scratch.

941
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, was there is there a costume?

942
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,439
Speaker 2: So this will be added to episode five, This will

943
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 2: come out when episode when episode five conversation comes out.

944
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 2: So as we move into the last three episodes, is

945
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 2: there a costume.

946
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,479
Speaker 3: That you're really really excited for the world to see.

947
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,879
Speaker 2: Is there like a moment that you're you think people

948
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 2: are going to go, oh wow?

949
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 4: I think the end the end, Yes, the book End

950
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 4: is really really good. But you know, episode five, there

951
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 4: were two outfits in there that no one will ever notice,

952
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 4: but I am extremely proud of. It's when it's when

953
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 4: she talks to the police and she's in a black

954
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 4: T shirt and it's sort of like we had two

955
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 4: palate cleanser outfits in that episode, and that was one

956
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 4: of them. When she was wearing a black T shirt

957
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 4: with leather pants, and it was just such a rocking

958
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 4: different attitude than what she was before. And then the

959
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,399
Speaker 4: element of her in the white shirt dress when she's

960
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 4: in her closet that was actually based off of the

961
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 4: Audrey Hepburn breakfast at Tiffany's when when the guy comes

962
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 4: to her door and she turns around and she's like,

963
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 4: please turn around and put on my and you think

964
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 4: she's putting on a rope, but she's not. She's like

965
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 4: actually putting on a men's tuxedo shirt and it was

966
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 4: backwards and we did that for her. But you know,

967
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 4: it's very hard doing palate cleanser like non costume costumes

968
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 4: that actually fit a character. And I'm really proud of

969
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 4: those because it was such a soft but it didn't

970
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 4: take away from like, she didn't become, you know, a

971
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 4: West Hollywood mom for a second, to be simple, you know,

972
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 4: we didn't. We and we kept that like character. Yeah.

973
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:06,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, So much has been said about collins incredible transformation

974
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,800
Speaker 1: through the Penguin Suit. Were there any particular challenges around

975
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: designing for that suit.

976
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously there were a lot of prosthetics and

977
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 4: it was kind of like a moving target, you know,

978
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 4: when there are prosthetics involved, because they do sit differently

979
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 4: from time to time, from day to day. But we

980
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 4: it took us a while to sort of get It's

981
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 4: like he had to put on the full prosthetics the

982
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 4: first couple of times we did the you know, at

983
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:39,359
Speaker 4: least half of his face prosthetics when we were doing

984
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 4: because it leads down to his neck when we were

985
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 4: doing the first couple of wardrobe fittings, and it was

986
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:48,399
Speaker 4: you know, very uncomfortable. I mean, he's amazing because he

987
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 4: never complained ever, but we needed to do that because

988
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:55,720
Speaker 4: or the clothes won't sit right. And we didn't really

989
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 4: sort of understand what we were building in the body

990
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 4: at the time. But towards the end, you know, we

991
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 4: kind of got it down and it became such a

992
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 4: faster thing where he didn't have to put on the

993
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 4: full prosthetics to for us to do his costume. There

994
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 4: was like a mini colin that we built on a

995
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 4: form that had like some prosthetic pieces and like some

996
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 4: padding and all that stuff for him, and we would like,

997
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 4: you know, put it, put everything on it, and then

998
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 4: be like, oh does this fit? You know, this mannequin colin.

999
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 4: If it's it's mannequin colin, then I'll fit the real

1000
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 4: colin for this character. And so there was a lot

1001
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 4: of you know, problem solving to so we could make

1002
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 4: his costumes but he doesn't have to be so involved

1003
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 4: in getting you know, his prosthetics on for us. But

1004
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 4: then also he was shooting all the time, so we

1005
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 4: didn't have time to really fit him that much. You know.

1006
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 4: But I think on every project it's like the first,

1007
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 4: you know, couple of fittings are like, hey, how get

1008
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 4: to know you? Fittings you know, with the actor and

1009
00:57:57,720 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 4: with the character, and then towards the end it's just

1010
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 4: so much fast because you're like they know it, you

1011
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 4: know it, and it's just an easier conversation.

1012
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: One last question, how do you handle you mentioned, uh,

1013
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: you know, mixing custom garments with stuff that you source

1014
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: this vintage from various places. How do you handle What

1015
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 1: do you do when someone comes to you because I

1016
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: keep this, can I have this?

1017
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 4: Well there is a process, so they make a list

1018
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 4: and we send it off to the studio and they

1019
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 4: have to approve it. But you know, I always want

1020
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 4: to say that if you have things that the actors

1021
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 4: want to keep then you did a good job because

1022
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 4: they see a lot, you know, and so it's always

1023
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 4: very flattering when they want to keep something. But yeah,

1024
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 4: there is a process to it because you know, studios

1025
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 4: are always like, oh where did that go?

1026
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 1: Yells so much wonderful conversation.

1027
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:02,439
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

1028
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 1: On tomorrow's episode of X ray Vision, we're diving into

1029
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: Agatha episode six, and on Wednesday, Abu and Aaron A

1030
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 1: Brack with another episode of X ray Vision extras covering

1031
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: Arcane episodes four and five. That's it for this episode.

1032
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.

1033
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:21,919
Speaker 3: Bye.

1034
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Kisumsion and Rosie

1035
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 1: Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive

1036
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: producers are Joelle Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer

1037
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: is a Boo Zafar. Our producers are Carmen Laurent and

1038
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.

1039
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman

1040
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 2: and Heidi On Disco Moderata