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Speaker 1: One of the great competitive advantages of the oil industry

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Speaker 1: is in its gifts for regulatory capture, and I think

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Speaker 1: that we are seeing that in the current context.

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Speaker 2: We certainly are. That was Carol Muffett, President and CEO

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Speaker 2: of the Center for International Environmental Law. I'm Amy Westervelt,

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Speaker 2: and this is drilled. We last heard from Muffett in

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Speaker 2: our mad Men season talking about John Hill. He's the

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Speaker 2: guy who told us about oil companies creating filters for cigarettes,

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Speaker 2: which blew my mind. Today, the Center for International Environmental

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Speaker 2: Law releases a report entitled Pandemic amid Systemic Decline, Why

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Speaker 2: exploiting the COVID nineteen crisis will not save the oil, gas,

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Speaker 2: and plastics industries. So I wanted to have Muffet on

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Speaker 2: to talk through some of the key findings in that report.

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Speaker 2: There are two other reports out this week as well

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Speaker 2: that are all kind of related to this COVID climate intersection.

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Speaker 2: An analysis from Friends of the Earth that shows how

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Speaker 2: oil and gas companies might get a lot of their

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Speaker 2: debt wiped out by a new federal reserve program, and

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Speaker 2: Influence Map has one looking at anti environmental lobbying that's

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Speaker 2: happening during the pandemic, all stuff we've also been covering

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Speaker 2: in our climate COVID policy Tracker. Check that out online

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Speaker 2: if you haven't already. As we've reported on before, the

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Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry was in trouble long before the coronavirus

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Speaker 2: pandemic hit. What we didn't know was that petrochemicals and

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Speaker 2: plastics were in trouble too, And that's where we're going

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Speaker 2: to pick up with Muffett after this quick message from

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Speaker 2: today's sponsor.

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Speaker 1: We were looking across these three interconnected sectors oil, gas,

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Speaker 1: and petrochemicals, particularly plastics. What we're refining is that across

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Speaker 1: all three sectors there were incredible pressure points that indicated

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Speaker 1: that the gross stories the industry is trying to tell basically,

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Speaker 1: they're not holding up to any sort of serious scrutiny.

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Speaker 2: Like I mentioned earlier, I had heard this about shale

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Speaker 2: gas and crude oil. The shale guess market is imploding

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Speaker 2: and the demand for crude has been on the decline

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Speaker 2: in the past few years. But I hadn't heard it

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Speaker 2: about plastics. In fact, that's where the big oil companies

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Speaker 2: have been investing their money and where they've been projecting

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Speaker 2: soaring demand and profits.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious about the petrochemical and plastic side of things

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Speaker 3: because I think, you know, we're starting to hear more

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Speaker 3: about the shale guest stuff. Everyone's kind of been suspicious

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Speaker 3: of fracking for a while, but I know that, you know,

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Speaker 3: the investments into plastics have been sort of how the

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Speaker 3: industry has planned to deal with decreased fossil fuel demand.

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Speaker 3: So what have you been seeing there that kind of

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Speaker 3: disproves that whole strategy.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think what we're seeing is just how much

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Speaker 1: the industry is relying on plastics to save it going forward.

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Speaker 1: We highlight this in the report. You know, the industry has,

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Speaker 1: on the one hand, been working on an array of

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Speaker 1: regulatory rollbacks, working to close down public opposition in public

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Speaker 1: participation and decisions affecting a lot of its operations. But

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Speaker 1: on the plastic side, it's gone still further and is

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Speaker 1: actually seeking to exploit the current crisis to say that

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Speaker 1: the world needs to be using more, not less, plastics.

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Speaker 1: And it's doing this at a time where, again, even

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Speaker 1: before the crisis began, you had major producers of plastics

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Speaker 1: resins acknowledging that the industry's two hundred billion dollar investment

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Speaker 1: in infrastructure had been overly optimistic, that capacity was being overbuilt,

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Speaker 1: that prices for plastic resins and demand for plastic goods

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Speaker 1: were not growing at anywhere near what the industry had

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Speaker 1: been assuming it would. And so what we're seeing in

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Speaker 1: the face of COVID is the industry trying to exploit

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Speaker 1: this crisis in two very distinct ways. First is to

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Speaker 1: secure additional government investments and additional regulatory rollbacks to make

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Speaker 1: these projects move forward. And the second is to argue

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Speaker 1: not only against bands on the single disposable plastics that

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Speaker 1: many countries were moving forward with, but also to argue

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Speaker 1: that the world should be wrapping ever more items in

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Speaker 1: plastic packaging in the name of hygiene and public safety.

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Speaker 1: And there's a remarkable instance of this where you have

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Speaker 1: an industry representative actually fantasizing, and I'm using this word

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Speaker 1: very advisedly, fantasizing that they'll be able to get the

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Speaker 1: public to wrap bananas and apples in plastic packaging in

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Speaker 1: the name of hygiene and fighting the COVID pandemic. And

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Speaker 1: I think that that is a testament to how overly

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Speaker 1: optimistic the industry is about how it's going to be

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Speaker 1: able to exploit COVID nineteen to fill that gap in

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Speaker 1: plastic demand as being created by declining interest in and

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Speaker 1: acceptance of single use disposable plastic.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that, even before this pandemic that they

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Speaker 3: are also just sort of convinced in their abilities to

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Speaker 3: create demand where there is then.

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Speaker 1: I think that is certainly the case. And I think

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Speaker 1: it is the case for the very simple reason that

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Speaker 1: for decades that strategy has worked. That strategy has been

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Speaker 1: effective for decades. This is an industry that has been

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Speaker 1: very good at creating consumer demand, creating markets where they

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Speaker 1: didn't exist for products that people weren't looking for and

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Speaker 1: didn't necessarily need. And so it's, you know, it may

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Speaker 1: come across as over confidence, but it's overconfidence that's been

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Speaker 1: built on decades of an industry effectively exploiting its understandings

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Speaker 1: of consumer behavior. I think where they failed is in

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Speaker 1: failing to recognize that people's willingness to accept plastics ultimately

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Speaker 1: had limits. As people began to understand that the impacts

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Speaker 1: of plastics are going beyond our oceans, going beyond wildlife,

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Speaker 1: that plastics are affecting human health, that they're affecting human communities,

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Speaker 1: that they're affecting human rights, and ultimately they're affecting climate.

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Speaker 1: More and more people are recognizing that is an unnecessary

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Speaker 1: product line that we can no longer afford.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that there's been sort of a weird

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Speaker 3: disconnect in the climate space between kind of not seeing

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Speaker 3: that plastic is connected to climate change and then sort

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Speaker 3: of the second part of that question is, you know

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Speaker 3: if you do think that, I know, I feel like

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Speaker 3: I've seen that. Do you think that that has somehow

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Speaker 3: been intentional on the part of industry?

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Speaker 1: Yes, in both respects, and the reasons why are closely related.

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Speaker 1: What we had seen is for a really long time,

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Speaker 1: people who are concerned about plastics and people who are

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Speaker 1: concerned about climate paid very little attention to each other,

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Speaker 1: and each community believed that they were fighting a very different,

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Speaker 1: very distinct fight. It's only been in the last year

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Speaker 1: to two years that that's really begun to change, with

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Speaker 1: research from SALE and other organizations beginning to expose those linkages.

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Speaker 1: But it has changed really rapidly, and I think we

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Speaker 1: saw that reflected not only in the growth of campaigns

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Speaker 1: linking the two issues and media coverage linking the two issues,

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Speaker 1: but the widespread attention to plastics at the most recent

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Speaker 1: climate negotiations, where they'd never made any meaningful appearance in

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Speaker 1: the past. Plastics were all over you and f Triple

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Speaker 1: C climate talks last year, and this lack of awareness,

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Speaker 1: the reason for it is clear. The oil and gas producers,

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Speaker 1: who are the primary producers of petrochemicals and plastics, have

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Speaker 1: been very good at making themselves invisible in all of this.

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Speaker 1: The reason that plastics were invisible as a climate issue

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Speaker 1: is that plastics themselves have been largely invisible in most

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Speaker 1: of our national discourse. They were only entering our public

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Speaker 1: policy discourse either in the context of toxics because plastic

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Speaker 1: packaging was carrying toxics into people's homes and in their bodies,

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Speaker 1: or it was entering the public discourse as plastic waste.

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Speaker 1: In neither of those places have the oil and gas

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Speaker 1: producers that are major plastic producers been out front saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're all about plastics. But when you look at their websites,

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Speaker 1: when you look at their communications to other business, they're

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Speaker 1: very clear that they are all about plastics. And so

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Speaker 1: this is an industry. It's been very effective at, on

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Speaker 1: the one hand, promoting the use of plastic resins across

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Speaker 1: ever wider ranges of product streams and in ever more

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Speaker 1: countries around the world, and on the other hand, keeping

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Speaker 1: their own role in these processes largely invisible from the public,

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Speaker 1: you know, the plug public. When they think about who

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Speaker 1: produces plastic, they think about Procter and Gamble, they think

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Speaker 1: about Starbucks, they think about Amazon. All those are completely legitimate,

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Speaker 1: But ultimately, at the end of the day, you know,

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Speaker 1: the molecules going into that plastic are all coming from

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Speaker 1: a handful of companies, and they have names like Exxon

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Speaker 1: and Chevron.

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Speaker 3: What are your thoughts on sort of even if the

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Speaker 3: industry succeeds in pushing a momentary spike in demand for plastic,

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Speaker 3: now that that is something that will continue post pandemic,

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Speaker 3: there are any concern that behavior change that took a

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Speaker 3: long while to get, like people bringing their bags to

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Speaker 3: the grocery store, could be stalled out by what's happening now.

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Speaker 1: That's certainly their goal, you know, the the industry's goal

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Speaker 1: is clearly to reverse a behavioral shift that was starting

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Speaker 1: to really take root and grow. The challenge to face

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Speaker 1: and the reason they're likely to fail is that the

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Speaker 1: opposition to this industry is coming not only from consumers,

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Speaker 1: but increasingly from the communities who are on the front

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Speaker 1: lines of the build out of plastics, who are working

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Speaker 1: to stop these plans from being built in their communities,

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Speaker 1: increasingly from investors who are increasingly skeptical about about the

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Speaker 1: prospects of sinking money into this industry. Clearly, the industry's

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Speaker 1: goal is to see this opportunity to trigger a short

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Speaker 1: term increase in packaging that takes advantage of fear. The

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Speaker 1: problem that they face is that fear is momentary. The

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Speaker 1: recognition that our current practices are unsustainable is much longer term,

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Speaker 1: and I think very difficult to roll back.

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Speaker 2: In some ways, this report from the Center for International

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Speaker 2: Environmental Law gave me a little bit of optimism, because

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Speaker 2: what I've been seeing is that it kind of doesn't

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Speaker 2: matter that the economics don't pencil out for a way.

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Speaker 2: If the industry continues to hold the government hostage and

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Speaker 2: maintain its social license, it will just continue to get

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Speaker 2: bailed out. But Muffatt says what he and his team

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Speaker 2: see in their research is at the end of the

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Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry is inevitable that bailing them out now

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Speaker 2: is like throwing money in a hole, and after a

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Speaker 2: while people will stop doing that. It's that last part

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Speaker 2: that I've been struggling to see. But Muffatt also points

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Speaker 2: to a subtle but huge data point in this report.

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Speaker 1: The change in vehicle miles traveled in the US. And

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Speaker 1: you want to ask me why I'm optimistic, it's little

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Speaker 1: geeky things like this. For almost the full second half

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Speaker 1: of the twentieth century and into the twenty first century,

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Speaker 1: every year, year on year, virtually without fail, people were

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Speaker 1: driving more, and the US government measures that in vehicle

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Speaker 1: miles traveled, and every year the vehicle miles traveled, we're

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Speaker 1: going up and up and up decade in decade out

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Speaker 1: that had actually already reached an early peak in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five. In the wake of the recession, vehicle

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Speaker 1: miles traveled every year collapsed, which is not unexpected because

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Speaker 1: the whole economy was shutting down, But two thousand and

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Speaker 1: eight is now a long time ago. In the wake

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Speaker 1: of the Great Recession, the US economy entered into the

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Speaker 1: longest period of protracted, sustained economic growth it's experienced in

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Speaker 1: a century, and yet vehicle miles traveled never really returned

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Speaker 1: If you look at the period since two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 1: what we found is that the year on year growth

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Speaker 1: and vehicle miles traveled has been about a half a

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Speaker 1: percent a year, and in recent years it's basically flattened out.

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Speaker 1: For the last if you look at the last three years,

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Speaker 1: there's been virtually no growth in how many miles people

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Speaker 1: are traveling every year. But our economy keeps growing, our

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Speaker 1: population keeps growing. Millennials are the largest generation alive, and

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Speaker 1: yet people are not driving more. And that's important because

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Speaker 1: the oil industry they don't sell cars, they.

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Speaker 2: Sell gas, which doesn't stop the industry from trying of course.

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Speaker 2: In fact, Muffet connects the dots between the recent rollback

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Speaker 2: of vehicle emissions regulations and this problem.

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Speaker 1: There's a reason that the oil companies and API have

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Speaker 1: been pushing the rollback of cafe standards because if you

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Speaker 1: can't get people to drive more, you make driving take

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Speaker 1: more fuel.

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Speaker 2: Still, people are driving less, and oil companies are making

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Speaker 2: less money, and ultimately, Muffet things that can't last.

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Speaker 1: If you look back ten twenty years, the biggest companies

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Speaker 1: in the economy were overwhelmingly oil and gas companies. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was at one point six or seven of the

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Speaker 1: ten largest companies my market capitalization in the United States

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Speaker 1: for oil and gas companies. If you look at the

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Speaker 1: market now, not one of those ten is among the

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Speaker 1: biggest companies in the country. Excellent was the last one,

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Speaker 1: and it fell out last year.

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Speaker 2: For this time, we'll be back soon with more stories

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Speaker 2: coming out of our ongoing reporting on climate and environmental

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Speaker 2: rollbacks and waivers amid the coronavirus pandemic. If you'd like

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Speaker 2: and another name. Thank you guys, your help is really appreciated.

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Speaker 2: It's keeping us going on this Policy Tracker project, so

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Speaker 2: you're very important to us right now and we appreciate

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Speaker 2: your support. A reminder too, that we are working on

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Speaker 2: some upcoming narrative series and both our Patreon members and

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Speaker 2: We'll also have some members only bonus content coming at

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Speaker 2: you soon, so look for that. Thanks again, and thanks

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Speaker 2: everyone for listening, and we'll see you next time