1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class. A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hey and Happy Friday. Casual Friday 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: is here, and I'm Holly Fry, I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: I feel like every day is Casual Friday in a 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: pandemic CADA kind of. UM. One of the things we 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: talked about this week was James Forton Ye, who we 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: talked about pretty openly in the episode, having been both 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: fairly convinced we must have talked about it before. Yeah, 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: I could find no evidence to support that. Nope, me neither, 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: which brings up an interesting thing, right, there is no 11 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: evidence for a lot of the aspects of his life 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: that people often talk about. UM. Kind of the biography 13 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: of him that that everybody really turns to is um 14 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: written by a woman named Julie Wynne. That biography is 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: titled A Gentleman of Color, and it's kind of like 16 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: the one that a lot of people reference, and her 17 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: research is really really amazing. UM. But she points out, 18 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: like what we know is kind of not ever through 19 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: primary source documents with him, because it appears most of 20 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: his papers were at some point destroyed, probably in a 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: property transfer or something. UM. But they're like kind of 22 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: put together from the writings of people that knew him 23 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: who say, oh, he told me this once, etcetera. And 24 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: one of the things that comes up all the time 25 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: when you're reading about him is he purchased the freedom 26 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: of enslaved people. But I it's a little tricky to 27 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: know if if that was really the case. Um. So, 28 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: if anybody was looking for that in the episode and 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: didn't get it or felt like kind of bummed that 30 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: they didn't hear about it, it's because if he did, 31 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: it was probably a little more indirect than we might think. Yeah, 32 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: he was so much a man about the letter of 33 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: the law. And really there are some things about his 34 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: writing even that troubles me because there is a certain 35 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: tone of uh, like a purity standard for black people 36 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: to be perfect, um and you know his thing is like, no, 37 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: you have to be this much better. So I don't 38 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: know if he would have actively participated in something like 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: that while he was also trying to lobby Congress to 40 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: do things. Um that is, it gets to be a 41 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: little bit tricky. And again we talked about it in 42 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: the episode. Right, this is contextualized at a time and 43 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: place when like those kinds of thoughts would not be 44 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: perceived quite the same way they are today. Obviously, there 45 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: is a problem to it. We don't know what he 46 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: was thinking, specifically, aside from his abolitionist writings that we have, 47 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: we don't have diaries, we don't have like personal notes 48 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: to really know what his logic flow was for the 49 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: way he presented certain ideas and thoughts. Even in his 50 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: thirteen pamphlet, the end of it is very almost apologetic 51 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: in tone, where he's like, I don't want to offend anybody. 52 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to make anybody feel like I'm pointing 53 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: a finger, I'm blaming, Like we just we need to 54 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: fix all of this. But even though he has very 55 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: clearly outlined, well documented instances of complete disparity in how 56 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: people are treated and respected, so there is a weird 57 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: back and forth there with him. It's hard to parse 58 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: because again we're going off of very little actual source 59 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: material from him. So I just wanted to mention that 60 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: as people are reading things about him or studying him, 61 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: if they if they are inspired to do so, that 62 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: you keep that in mind. It's there can be some 63 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: tricky parts of his story that are are a little 64 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: bit um like I said, you know, it troubles me 65 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: a little bit because you hate to see it. Um. Yeah, 66 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: this idea of like you have to act right so 67 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: white people will treat you right, and it's like, wait, no, 68 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: they should have rights the end. That's that's always a problem. Again, 69 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: that's me working it out well, and so we've that's 70 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: something that has come up on the show relatively often 71 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: when we've been talking about social movements advocating for people's 72 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: rights and the idea of respectability and how uh, in 73 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,119 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, respectability could be a really important tool, 74 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: but it was also a double edged sword because it's 75 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: just like creating a standard that is like continues to 76 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: be applied. Like if you look at uh, if you 77 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: look at headlines about Black Lives Matter today, you will 78 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: still see things that are about the idea of respectability 79 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: rather than the idea that like everybody should have rights. Yeah. Yeah, 80 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: there's also some other interesting stuff and it comes up 81 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: a lot in that biography. She's pretty unflinching in her 82 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: examination of his life about how he could as part 83 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: of that kind of obsession with achieving respectability. Uh, he 84 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,559 Speaker 1: was a bit controlling of his employees at times, would 85 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: really kind of put his teetotal or stamp on any 86 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: discussions about that they would have about like, you know, 87 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: I'm the person that pays your wages, and I think 88 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: you should not drink um. Allegedly, he would even tell 89 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: his white employees how to vote, which is an interesting thing. 90 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: You know, a company that did that today would not 91 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: would not fly. Uh. So it is There's a lot 92 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: of really interesting stuff to unpack there, and I think 93 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: if you go into it kind of appreciating the conflict 94 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: of of so much of anyone's story from that period 95 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: of time right as viewed through our modern lens. Yeah, 96 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: it's a really interesting puzzle to put together. I'm thinking 97 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: about all the times that I've gotten newsletters that places 98 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: that I've worked that are like, here are the candidates 99 00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: that are supporting our business, uh, which is uh, not 100 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: quite the same as vote for this person, but it's 101 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: the same intent. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things we 102 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: talked about this week was six Topics, Uh that when 103 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: folks asked us to cover it on the show, I'm like, 104 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: but there's this one book about it, one book. Um. 105 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: I I often will have these these conversations with my 106 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: spouse where He's like, what are you working on? And 107 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: I explained what I'm working on, and this time, um, 108 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: he said what you're working I was like, well, I'm 109 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: working on a six impossible episodes and I'm I'm calling it. 110 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: There's a book about it. And he had a totally 111 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: different read on what that would mean. In his imagination, 112 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: it was something that is so big that it is 113 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: only possible to cover it in a book and podcast. 114 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: And I was like, Oh, that's very interesting, but that's 115 00:06:54,680 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: that's not that's not what it is. Uh. One. The 116 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: last thing that we talked about was the loss and 117 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: family murders, which actually happened not that far from where 118 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: I grew up. Um, I'm not close enough that, uh 119 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: that it was like a source of sort of macab 120 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: fascination for everyone. Um. And that episode of the podcast 121 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: Criminal that we talked about. In the episode, um Phoebe 122 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: Judge talked to all of these people from Stokes County 123 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: and they talked about it just sort of being uh 124 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: like local almost local urban legend at this point, like 125 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: a thing that everybody living there knows about and talks about. Um. 126 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: But it was a thing that I don't think I 127 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: learned about until high school when the book White Christmas, 128 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: Bloody Christmas came out and I got a copy of 129 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: that book, and I don't know if it's still in 130 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: my parents house somewhere. Um. If so, it's super hard 131 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: to find. Now if you want to get the like 132 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: that edition of that book, you can find people trying 133 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: to sell it for like nine dollars. So I have questions. 134 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: So you learned about it in high school when that 135 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: book came out, did it then become a source of 136 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: fascination for people in your peer group? I know it 137 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: became a source of fascination for me, um, because I, 138 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: like a lot of folks, I had that the the 139 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: sort of um fascination with crimes and like really grewesome 140 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: historical stories. Um. I. The person that I I'm pretty 141 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: sure I learned about it from was actually my drama teacher, 142 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: and she had known about it for a really long 143 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: time and it was really fascinated with it and was 144 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: so excited about that book coming out. Um. She she 145 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: had this story that she told us in drama class 146 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: about like her son. I don't I'm not sure if 147 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: they had known that the book was coming out, um, 148 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: but her son had found a copy of it in 149 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: the bookstore and was trying to keep her from seeing 150 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: that it was there so that he could get it 151 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: for her for Christmas. So yeah, there were there were 152 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: other weird stories, some of them true and some of 153 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: them faults. That were more things that we discussed in 154 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: our in our peer group. Um, like, there was this 155 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,719 Speaker 1: supposedly haunted road in a place called Rural Hall in 156 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: North Carolina called Payne Road, and we talked about pain 157 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: Road a lot. Um. I don't think that we really 158 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: had Charlie Loss in conversations until possibly after the book 159 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: came out. Fascinating. Definitely read that book more than once. 160 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: It may or may not be in my parents basement. 161 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: I feel like I didn't grow up with any good, 162 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: local horrible stories. We had alien sightings. That was our thing. 163 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: Slightly different, not as not as I don't know I 164 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: was gonna say, not as cool, but some people I 165 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: think it's probably more cool. I don't know. I like 166 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: the I like crimes and scary things. So yeah, yeah, 167 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: it's almost October as of when we're recording this. Oh 168 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: it's been October in my heart since July. So yeah, 169 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: good Ready, If you would like to write to as 170 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: you can do so at a history podcast at i 171 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: heart radio dot com, and you can subscribe on the 172 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: i heart radio app, at Apple podcast anywhere you listen. 173 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 1: We hope you have a wonderful weekend however that plays 174 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: out for you, and we'll see you next week. Stuff 175 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: you Missed in History Class is a production of I 176 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from i heart Radio, visit 177 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 178 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.