1
00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,199
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts.

2
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,600
Speaker 2: Radio news sources telling Bloomberg TikTok is planning to exhaust

3
00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,080
Speaker 2: all legal challenges before any kind of sale is considered.

4
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,239
Speaker 2: The company to kind it's comment on its plans, but

5
00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,079
Speaker 2: saying the legislation quote has a predetermined outcome, a total

6
00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 2: pan of TikTok in the United States. FCC Commissioner Brendan

7
00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,599
Speaker 2: car Join just now for more, Commissioner, been looking forward

8
00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,840
Speaker 2: to this conversation. I've got your comments in front of

9
00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:28,880
Speaker 2: me on TikTok. You've called it before a clear and

10
00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,400
Speaker 2: present danger to national security. I'm sure TikTok would disagree

11
00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,919
Speaker 2: with their characterization as well. Can you give some concrete example, sir,

12
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:37,440
Speaker 2: of why you think that's the case.

13
00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, the track record with TikTok's malign conduct is very

14
00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,160
Speaker 3: clear at this point. For years they told us lawmakers,

15
00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:46,280
Speaker 3: don't worry us.

16
00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:47,920
Speaker 1: User data isn't even.

17
00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,440
Speaker 3: Existing inside China, and then a blockbuster report came out

18
00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,640
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two that showed no, in fact, quote,

19
00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,560
Speaker 3: everything is seen inside of China based on leak materials.

20
00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,640
Speaker 3: That's keystroke patterns, biometrics, search and browsing history, location. Then

21
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,920
Speaker 3: second of all, what the CCP are doing with that

22
00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,399
Speaker 3: data is very nefarious. They use access that did data

23
00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,679
Speaker 3: personnel in Beijing did to surveil the locations of specific

24
00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,360
Speaker 3: Americans journalists that were writing negative stories about TikTok. Third,

25
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,400
Speaker 3: TikTok said, Okay, you caught us red handed. We're going

26
00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,920
Speaker 3: to wall off US user data. But low and behold,

27
00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,039
Speaker 3: the Wall Street Journal report came out and found that

28
00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,959
Speaker 3: personnel in Beijing are still getting access to that data

29
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,080
Speaker 3: sensitive US user data after agreeing to wall it off.

30
00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,320
Speaker 3: And the record goes on from there, including TikTok's parent

31
00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,560
Speaker 3: Bike Dance having a CCP sell embedded in its leadership.

32
00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,960
Speaker 3: So this is about the malign conduct that an entity

33
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,160
Speaker 3: that is beholden to the CCP has been engaged in.

34
00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,280
Speaker 4: When you talk about walling off that data, you're talking

35
00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,560
Speaker 4: about Project Texas. Has it not worked at all?

36
00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 1: No, not at all.

37
00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,120
Speaker 3: So one of the leak materials had TikTok trust and

38
00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 3: safety officials that sales saying that it remains to be

39
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,960
Speaker 3: seen whether product and engineering meaning Beijing can still get

40
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,640
Speaker 3: access to US user data after mitigations like Project Texas

41
00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,919
Speaker 3: are put in place. Second of all, that walling off

42
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,800
Speaker 3: of data that we just talked about was part of

43
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,920
Speaker 3: Project Texas, and again Beijing still got access to it.

44
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,959
Speaker 3: And even TikTok's CEO has said Project Texas will keep

45
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,960
Speaker 3: data from going to Beijing except when we allow it

46
00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,200
Speaker 3: pursued too what they claim are new control. So Project

47
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,040
Speaker 3: Texas is about as secure as a civ at the

48
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:30,600
Speaker 3: end of the day.

49
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,520
Speaker 4: In a day of interesting and odd political bedfellows that

50
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,280
Speaker 4: we saw yes Da in Kappa Hill's, a lot of

51
00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,600
Speaker 4: individuals come out and talk about free speech on the

52
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,400
Speaker 4: progressive left and the right, Ron Paul saying he's going

53
00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,800
Speaker 4: to block anything that's contrary to the Constitution. Do you agree?

54
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,200
Speaker 4: Is there a free speech issue at play here?

55
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,840
Speaker 3: Look, Grandpaul has been great on these liberty issues. This

56
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,160
Speaker 3: particular bill does not trigger a First Amendment concern for

57
00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,560
Speaker 3: one main reason. The Supreme Court has run a clear

58
00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,400
Speaker 3: line between regulation based on content of speech on the

59
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,880
Speaker 3: one hand, and regulation of conduct on the other. And

60
00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,160
Speaker 3: this plainly is a conduct law, meaning we're acting because

61
00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,280
Speaker 3: of the demonstrated malign national security threat of TikTok, not

62
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,880
Speaker 3: because of the content of anybody's speech. And the bill

63
00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 3: is narrowly tailored, which is key for a First Amendment

64
00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,480
Speaker 3: analysis because it simply requires divestment, Meaning the millions of

65
00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,760
Speaker 3: Americans that love TikTok, I'm not one of them, but

66
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,920
Speaker 3: they can continue to use the application, but just in

67
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,399
Speaker 3: a more secure way. So because of the conduct issue here,

68
00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,240
Speaker 3: the Constitution does not compel us to require a national

69
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,240
Speaker 3: security threat to continue to persist.

70
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,800
Speaker 4: Well, there's one politician in DCU certainly likes TikTok, and

71
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,560
Speaker 4: that's President Biden. The sense of his campaign, they feel

72
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,480
Speaker 4: like they're able to reach the youth by using TikTok.

73
00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,600
Speaker 4: So if TikTok is divested, there's a sale. Would that

74
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,840
Speaker 4: mean that the Biden campaign can continue using it? But

75
00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,000
Speaker 4: do you think it'll be safer?

76
00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

77
00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:57,360
Speaker 3: You know a lot of people raise that concern about

78
00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 3: the Biden administration being on TikTok. Biden administration officials have

79
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,040
Speaker 3: been very clear that there's a national security threat here.

80
00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,839
Speaker 3: That's why passed this bill actually squares the circle because

81
00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,960
Speaker 3: then the campaign or anybody's campaign could continue or start

82
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,440
Speaker 3: to be on TikTok, but without that serious national security

83
00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 3: risk that's present today.

84
00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,320
Speaker 5: Commissioner, given the fact that we've heard that from President Biden.

85
00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,440
Speaker 5: I'm curious about your comments from the former President Trump,

86
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,040
Speaker 5: who seems to be, I don't know less clear about

87
00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,800
Speaker 5: what he thinks of this bill, saying, you know that

88
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:28,440
Speaker 5: there's a lot of good, there's a lot of bad

89
00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,920
Speaker 5: with TikTok, talking about how it increases the prevalence of meta.

90
00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:34,279
Speaker 5: What do you make of his comments.

91
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,520
Speaker 3: I think, first of all, President Trump, you know, fundamentally

92
00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:42,400
Speaker 3: reshaped washing DC to understand the serious threat posed by

93
00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:43,120
Speaker 3: the CCP.

94
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,680
Speaker 1: He's also raised concerns, as I have, with.

95
00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,360
Speaker 3: The conduct of big tech companies that are based right

96
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 3: here in Silicon Valley, and those are real concerns. He

97
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,360
Speaker 3: pushed for Section two thirty reform, which I supported, and

98
00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:55,680
Speaker 3: I hope we would have gotten across the.

99
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 1: Finish line at the SEC by now, and we had it.

100
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,200
Speaker 3: But TikTok presents obviously sort of a threat that's fundamentally

101
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,960
Speaker 3: different than us big tech companies. For all of my

102
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,159
Speaker 3: concerns with their conduct, and I have many, once we

103
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,000
Speaker 3: deal with the national security threat from TikTok, once you

104
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,719
Speaker 3: break that tie back to the CCP, then we should

105
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,400
Speaker 3: move very quickly. As President Trump has outlined on Section

106
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 3: two thirty reform and in my view, a permanent anti

107
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,800
Speaker 3: discrimination obligation that would apply across the board. But until

108
00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,680
Speaker 3: you break that link to the CCP, a lot of

109
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,440
Speaker 3: other reforms just aren't going to work out.

110
00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,920
Speaker 4: But it does feel like he flip flopped on this

111
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 4: in the sense that he wanted to band it on

112
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,599
Speaker 4: a Hindus administration. It then got held up in court,

113
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 4: and now he's saying he's really not so sure about it.

114
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,040
Speaker 4: Do you think we could see a different if he

115
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,679
Speaker 4: was to become president of the United States, a different

116
00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,760
Speaker 4: view on TikTok because of his concerns of how big

117
00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:47,400
Speaker 4: Meta is.

118
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:50,720
Speaker 3: Well, again, I think the reason why this bill is

119
00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,640
Speaker 3: such a smart approach is because it's not.

120
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:53,919
Speaker 1: A ban bill.

121
00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,760
Speaker 3: It's a divestment and so you would have TikTok go

122
00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,120
Speaker 3: to a different doesn't need to be a US company,

123
00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 3: could be any company that's not tied to.

124
00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,839
Speaker 1: China, Russia and North Korea or Iran.

125
00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,080
Speaker 3: So you can continue to have TikTok in the marketplace

126
00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,400
Speaker 3: as a counterweight to Facebook, as accountterweight to others, but

127
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,520
Speaker 3: it can be there in a way that doesn't present

128
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:12,560
Speaker 3: the national security threats.

129
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,000
Speaker 1: So what keeps that competition High Commissioner.

130
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,400
Speaker 2: We seem to be ill equipped to deal with these issues.

131
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,000
Speaker 2: It's been four years, about four years since we've been

132
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,200
Speaker 2: talking about this, and har the anything has happened, just

133
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,000
Speaker 2: in terms of actually passing proper policy to do something

134
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,480
Speaker 2: about these national security concerns. I think back to China.

135
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,160
Speaker 2: It's easy, it's straightforward. She comes out and says no,

136
00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:32,279
Speaker 2: and then that's it.

137
00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:32,720
Speaker 1: It's banned.

138
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 2: It's all banned, twits of Facebook, YouTube, no access. Why

139
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,719
Speaker 2: are we so ill equipped in the West to deal

140
00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,120
Speaker 2: with these threats? And how do we go about changing that?

141
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, we certainly have a very different system obviously than

142
00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,440
Speaker 3: they do in China. And some people raise concerns about

143
00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,159
Speaker 3: will China engage in some sort of reciprocal action based

144
00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,480
Speaker 3: on that and our mind people, Facebook and other US

145
00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,760
Speaker 3: technology comans are already banned in China. So yes, we

146
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,200
Speaker 3: move more slowly, we move in a much more considered way.

147
00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,440
Speaker 3: And obviously don't underestimate the fact that, you know, Byte

148
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,320
Speaker 3: Dance has put every single amount of lobbyist dollar possible

149
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,520
Speaker 3: to slow roll this. And people look at thee hundred

150
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,599
Speaker 3: and eighteenth Congress and they say, you know, they have

151
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,800
Speaker 3: a hard time getting things done as a general matter,

152
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,920
Speaker 3: but this is one where thee hundred and eighteen and

153
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,680
Speaker 3: Speaker Johnson can land a significant legislative win, not just

154
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,600
Speaker 3: on a tough issue, but as you know, on a

155
00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,240
Speaker 3: technology issue where it's sometimes difficult for Congress to act.

156
00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,480
Speaker 3: And that's why the Commerce Committee, with Chair Rogers holding

157
00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,600
Speaker 3: that blockbuster hearing last March, I think that really stepped

158
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,360
Speaker 3: things in motion. Do people wish it would have gone faster, sure, undoubtedly,

159
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 3: But arriving here today where there's a vote in the

160
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,640
Speaker 3: House is a significant moment.

161
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,080
Speaker 4: Significant moment in the House, but what happens next in

162
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:40,520
Speaker 4: the Senate?

163
00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,920
Speaker 3: Commissioner, Yeah, I feel pretty good about the odds in

164
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,240
Speaker 3: the Senate as well. If you look back, Actually people

165
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,520
Speaker 3: start forgotten this, but Senator Schumer joined in a letter

166
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 3: with Senator Cotton back in twenty nineteen raising serious concerns

167
00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,760
Speaker 3: about TikTok's national security threat. So this is an issue

168
00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 3: that is a long standing issue for Senator Schumer over

169
00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,040
Speaker 3: the in many many Republicans as well. So a lot

170
00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 3: of the focus that's been in the House obviously up

171
00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,720
Speaker 3: to now they will now shift to the Senate. I

172
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,240
Speaker 3: think the odds are very good there as well, and

173
00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,560
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward hopefully to the bill passing today in

174
00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:12,200
Speaker 3: the House and then things moving over there.

175
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,440
Speaker 2: Commisiron I want to finish on conduct versus content. You

176
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 2: talked about this being a conduct issue. Do you believe

177
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,760
Speaker 2: there is a content issue in any way, shape or

178
00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:19,360
Speaker 2: form as well?

179
00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:21,440
Speaker 1: No, not at all.

180
00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,680
Speaker 3: I mean, look, sometimes we focus on the way the

181
00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,680
Speaker 3: algorithm with TikTok performs, and people have focused on that.

182
00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,760
Speaker 3: How it just shows content that is drastically different than

183
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,840
Speaker 3: any other social media content that happens to align with

184
00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:33,520
Speaker 3: the CCP.

185
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,040
Speaker 1: Again, it's not that content that's the concern for me.

186
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,920
Speaker 3: It's that that content shows there's such a drastically different

187
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,920
Speaker 3: operation of the algorithm that it goes fundamentally to conduct

188
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 3: into CCP controls. When we talk about that again, it's

189
00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,920
Speaker 3: just further evidence of CCP control. It's not about the

190
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 3: government acting based on content. Again, I'll give you one

191
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 3: last analogy. Someone can take a pen and they can

192
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,600
Speaker 3: write the most salacious anti American propaganda they want. There's

193
00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,600
Speaker 3: nothing rightfully the government can do but take that pen

194
00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:02,480
Speaker 3: and you use it to pick a lock and break

195
00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,280
Speaker 3: into a building. Well, that's illegal conduct. We can take

196
00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,120
Speaker 3: the pen, and it's no defense for you to say

197
00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,120
Speaker 3: that you are using it to write previously.

198
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,560
Speaker 2: Commissioner, I appreciate you'll view this morning. Thank you for

199
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,599
Speaker 2: joining us. We'll catch up soon. SEC Commissioner friend and

200
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:14,920
Speaker 2: car