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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're

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Speaker 2: a weekly reminder that when there's bad things, there's people

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Speaker 2: trying to do good things. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy,

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Speaker 2: and this week I have a guest. I guess I

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Speaker 2: usually have a guest, but this week I have a

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Speaker 2: guest named Annie Reese. Hi, how are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm good. I feel like that's a loaded question these days,

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Speaker 3: but yes, I'm good. How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm also good with air quotes everywhere.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm very excited to be here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. And if people

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Speaker 2: haven't heard of you, which is surprising, you are one

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Speaker 2: of the hosts of Stuff Mom Never told You. And

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Speaker 2: you're also a host of Savor, which is a food podcast,

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Speaker 2: and I haven't actually heard that one yet, But I

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Speaker 2: am learning more and more about how I care about

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Speaker 2: food in terms of culture and politics and history and stuff.

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Speaker 2: And I just really appreciate y'all's tagline there's no you

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Speaker 2: and Savor.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. We Actually the show is big on puns

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Speaker 3: and oh good bad jokes, if you'll allow me to say,

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Speaker 3: but yes, that is a huge part of Savors that

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Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of times people divorce food

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Speaker 3: from politics when they really shouldn't, and history when they

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Speaker 3: really shouldn't. And there's just so much to learn from

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Speaker 3: what you're eating every day. So that's my bitch for saver.

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Speaker 2: I want to hear it now. I like stuff mom'

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Speaker 2: never told you, and I think people will like these

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Speaker 2: things too. And if there's one thing you can say

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Speaker 2: about the current administration, this is not going to be

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Speaker 2: an episode about the current administration. Oh, I have to

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Speaker 2: do the rest of the introductions, including Sophie, who's our producer? Hi, Sophie.

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Speaker 1: Damn, it's just gonna forget me. I got a bright

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Speaker 1: prank hat on.

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Speaker 2: I never forget you, Sophie.

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Speaker 3: I would never forget Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 2: And good house plants always good house.

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Speaker 1: Plans, Thank you. Pretty bushy behind me today, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I want to touch it.

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Speaker 2: We also have a new audio and who's Eva. Everyone's

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Speaker 2: to say hi to Eva, Hi Eva.

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Speaker 3: Hi Eva, Hiva. Eva's great.

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Speaker 1: He's gonna put that out there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and actually Eva's been editing Our book Club, one

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Speaker 2: of my other shows. They cools on Media book Club

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Speaker 2: for a while.

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Speaker 1: Now, don't worry, we didn't get rid of Rory. Rory's

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Speaker 1: just working on a different project.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, mining coal. Yeah, actually not doing the mining of

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Speaker 2: the coal. But if you hang out in a cage,

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Speaker 2: you can keep track of when there's bad chemicals in

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Speaker 2: the air.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we should make people at least, you know,

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Speaker 1: say haw to Rory one more time. I think, Hello, Rory, Hi,

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Speaker 1: Ri Hi Ory, if you want to say hi Rory more.

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Speaker 1: He's editing behind the bastards now.

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Speaker 2: So I am, well, okay, the current administration thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's going on there? That was like a really

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Speaker 1: wild little teaser you did.

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Speaker 2: So I went and did a Have you all ever

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Speaker 2: heard of lavender graduations?

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Speaker 3: No? No, I have not.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't, and I'm kind of embarrassed that I hadn't.

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Speaker 2: It's LGBT groups on college campuses have a graduation ceremony.

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Speaker 2: And I went and did a talk at one yesterday.

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Speaker 2: As we record this, and I was very like, how

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Speaker 2: is this gonna go? They hired a kind of fiery

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Speaker 2: anarchist to come give them their LGBT speech. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to tell them about gay people who had burned down

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Speaker 2: Nazi records. And then it kind of helped realizing that

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Speaker 2: everyone is really aware that things aren't okay right now,

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Speaker 2: So that was kind of actually promising. So in a

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Speaker 2: weird way, the one nice thing you can say about

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Speaker 2: the current situation is that no one has their head

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Speaker 2: in the sands in the same degree anymore.

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Speaker 1: That's fair.

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Speaker 2: Did it go well, Oh yeah, the event went great.

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Speaker 2: It was really heartwarming. Actually, it was a very like, oh,

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Speaker 2: the kids are all right kind of moment, which is

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Speaker 2: condescending to say because they're not kids. There are like

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Speaker 2: twenty two I don't know how people are when they

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Speaker 2: graduate college.

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Speaker 3: Who knows. Two.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So if there is one thing this does actually

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Speaker 2: relate to what we're gonna talk about this week and

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Speaker 2: a lot in the near future. If there's one thing

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Speaker 2: I can say about the current administration of the United States,

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Speaker 2: it's that it has made us realize that there's an

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Speaker 2: awful lot of stuff we take for granted. Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: I've never been a big like government person, this is

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Speaker 2: true about me, right, but I'm a big like social

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Speaker 2: services person. But I'm like, oh, there's all of these

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Speaker 2: things that are really really good that we try to

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Speaker 2: do as a society, and we like stuff that society

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Speaker 2: tends to do for us. And a lot of that

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Speaker 2: stuff is being taken away. So I've decided to spend

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Speaker 2: some time focusing on these everyday miracles that we take

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Speaker 2: for granted, things that our parents or grandparents might not

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Speaker 2: have taken for granted, things that we can no longer

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Speaker 2: take for granted. I want to talk about vaccines. Ooh, yes,

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Speaker 2: I like vaccines. Vaccines are cool as hell, easily in

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Speaker 2: the top five best things humans have come up with.

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Speaker 2: I don't know the other four on that list are,

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Speaker 2: but probably burritos. Specifically, I want to talk about the

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Speaker 2: polio vaccines. And I'm going to use the plural here

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Speaker 2: on purpose, because people talk about the polio vaccine as

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Speaker 2: if there's one vaccine, and there is a whole wild

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Speaker 2: history behind polio vaccines, and they have functionally, but not literally,

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Speaker 2: eradicated polio. Have you heard much of this story?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 3: But I do have a friend who works at the CDC.

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Speaker 3: She has not been fired yet, oh shit, yes, and

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Speaker 3: she is the biggest proponent of vaccines. She like, if

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Speaker 3: you catch her at a party, somehow vaccines will come up,

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Speaker 3: and a polio vaccin. It's one of her favorite stories

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Speaker 3: to tell. So I know it's got a history behind.

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Speaker 2: It, and a different history than I thought it did.

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Speaker 2: Because this week's story is going to follow an arc

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Speaker 2: that is familiar to regular listeners of the show, and

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Speaker 2: that Sophie and I spend a lot of our time

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Speaker 2: complaining about in signal chats, which is that I start

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Speaker 2: off researching, usually a guy who is famous for having

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Speaker 2: accomplished something right, and then I spend a week researching.

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Speaker 2: I read most of a biography, I'd read a whole

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Speaker 2: bunch of other stuff. I get about ninety percent through

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Speaker 2: my research. When I find out something that makes me

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Speaker 2: have to change everything about the story.

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Speaker 3: It happens all too often.

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Speaker 2: It's so annoying. It has happened when I researched women before,

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Speaker 2: but it happens all the time with men, where you're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: and you're gonna like research this person and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: they kind of we're a horrible monster to the people

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Speaker 2: closest to them, or actually all of this is myth

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Speaker 2: making and they're a con artist, or just like whatever

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, taking credit a lot of time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of taking credit, you ever heard of a

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Speaker 2: guy named Jonas salk.

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Speaker 3: Have? Yes, this is.

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Speaker 2: The man Sophia, you heard of this guy? No, I hadn't.

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Speaker 2: And I think that, like you and I live under

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Speaker 2: a specific rock, because like, at least everything I've read

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Speaker 2: has been like, ah, yes, the most household name medicine

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Speaker 2: person in the world. And I'm like, I've never heard

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Speaker 2: of this man. Yeah, what have you heard of? Jonas Soak?

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Speaker 2: Before I tell you about Jonahs Sak.

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Speaker 3: I just knew he was involved in like medicine. I

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Speaker 3: just have heard his name from my elementary school days.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Jonas Sack, the man who defeated polio. He was

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Speaker 2: a Jewish guy raised poor in New York City from

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Speaker 2: a family of Eastern European immigrants. He worked his entire

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Speaker 2: life to fight disease and make the world a better place,

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Speaker 2: and along the way he became a sort of medical

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Speaker 2: rock star for his work developing a polio vaccine. He

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Speaker 2: is famous for saying he refused to patent this vaccine

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Speaker 2: because the world needed it. He said in an interview quote,

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Speaker 2: how can you patent the sun? And that what I

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Speaker 2: just read you is true? Ish, It is so close

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Speaker 2: to true that it is a massive fuck off. Lie.

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Speaker 2: Is such a lie? Fascinating and I like, I learned

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Speaker 2: that about seven hours ago.

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Speaker 3: He learned something every day. I know, like the.

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Speaker 2: Fact that the thing you've been researching for five days nonstuff,

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Speaker 2: isn't it true.

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Speaker 1: It's not even like true kind of it is.

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Speaker 2: It's so true that it becomes a lie.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay.

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Speaker 2: He did develop a polio vaccine. He developed the first

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Speaker 2: polio vaccine. The first functional one was we'll talk about it.

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Speaker 2: He didn't. Actually, we'll get to it. Okay. The first

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Speaker 2: polio vaccine that was widely tested is often called the

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Speaker 2: Salk vaccine, and he worked to do that with a

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Speaker 2: private anti communist foundation, one that claimed that public investment

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Speaker 2: in research was how communism would win in America, so

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Speaker 2: it couldn't be publicly funded. This is not reflecting the

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Speaker 2: politics of Jonah Sauk himself, but this is the organization

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Speaker 2: funded him. His vaccine saved uncountable lives, mostly white, middle

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Speaker 2: and upper class lives in the United States of America. Then,

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Speaker 2: another Eastern European Jewish man who also came up in

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Speaker 2: New York City, developed a polio vaccine in partnership between

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Speaker 2: American and Soviet scientists. This vaccine was cheap, more easily

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Speaker 2: administered and really slightly more dangerous by one context and

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Speaker 2: less dangerous by another context. That vaccine ended polio. After

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Speaker 2: polio is a effectively destroyed, the US went back to

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Speaker 2: Salks vaccine because when you have plenty of time and

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Speaker 2: medical facilities and can do booster shots and all that stuff,

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Speaker 2: Salks vaccine edges out a little bit. So it was

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Speaker 2: not Jonas Salk who beat polio. It wasn't even Albert Sabin,

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Speaker 2: who's this direct competitor, the one who I just said,

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Speaker 2: because no one person beat polio. It was an enormous

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Speaker 2: undertaking by thousands of researchers from across the world that

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Speaker 2: beat polio. And the Great Man theory of history is

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Speaker 2: once again a bunch of fucking garbage. And I didn't

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Speaker 2: know most of that when I wrote it this fucking episode,

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Speaker 2: So consider it a story about how myths are built.

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Speaker 2: But first we're gonna talk about polio. I don't know

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Speaker 2: anyone who's had polio to my knowledge, and that is

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Speaker 2: because I was born after these vaccines. Poliomyelitis is a

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Speaker 2: viral infection. Most infections are either bacterial or viral, and

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Speaker 2: this one's viral. It has been around for kind of forever,

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Speaker 2: at least thousands of years. It was first given a

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Speaker 2: name in eighteenth century, and then it started really fucking

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Speaker 2: people up in the nineteenth century. It actually the places

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Speaker 2: that first really hit was Europe and then the United

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Speaker 2: States in the nineteenth century. In nineteen oh eight or

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Speaker 2: nineteen oh nine, I have read both. A guy actually

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Speaker 2: looked really close and was like, I have seen the

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Speaker 2: actual virus that does this, and that has got to

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Speaker 2: be a strange time to be a scientist where you're like, ah,

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Speaker 2: I am looking through a microscope and seeing the actual object.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I can't imagine back in those days where you

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Speaker 3: were just this looks different. I'm not sure why. Let

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Speaker 3: me try to come up with some reason. Just the

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Speaker 3: way we've understood viruses throughout time and how that's changed

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Speaker 3: is fascinating to me. Honestly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, And I'm kind of excited about all the

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Speaker 2: things that people are going to look back one hundred

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Speaker 2: years from now if they're still alive in the world's

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Speaker 2: and been cooked to death. But otherwise I'm like excited

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Speaker 2: about all the things. I'll be like, remember when people

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Speaker 2: thought the following, you know, right, Polio was absolutely terrifying

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Speaker 2: to people. It barely causes any symptoms in most people,

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Speaker 2: so it's easily transmitted. So like adults get it and

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Speaker 2: transmit it, but they don't they're not affected by it,

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Speaker 2: basically not. Most of the time, it is transmitted through

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Speaker 2: the fecal oral route, which is there's just like different

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Speaker 2: ways that you know, is the following think airborn. This

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Speaker 2: is the kind of fun thing that's fun to talk

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Speaker 2: about at parties. Actually, well, with your friend, it probably

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Speaker 2: is fun to talk about a parties.

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Speaker 3: She does love talking about it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: My favorite thing I like bringing up is that hand

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Speaker 2: sanitizer doesn't do anything for fecal oral routes diseases, and

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Speaker 2: so you actually need to wash your hands after you

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Speaker 2: go to the bathroom. You can't just like use hand sanitizer. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: makes me real popular.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, things are the fun things in life. You know.

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Speaker 2: This is why I go to so many parties and

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Speaker 2: I'm invited everywhere.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like you, Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: It is my goal to be invited to all the parties.

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Speaker 2: It is not my goal to go to all the parties.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, one hundred percent. I want to be invited,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not coming like please keep inviting me, because

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Speaker 1: if you don't, I'll be really sad about it. But

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Speaker 1: I'm not coming, I know, but if you're not reinvited,

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Speaker 1: which is fair but still not okay, no, okay, oh okay.

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Speaker 2: The best is when you have a friend where you

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Speaker 2: can invite each other to things and you know it's

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Speaker 2: safe because you know that both of you are gonna

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Speaker 2: be like, eh, I gotta hang out with my dog today.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, gotta have that like dog back burner.

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Speaker 1: Excuse, yeah, totally, I am good, my favorite the like, Oh.

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Speaker 2: My dog is just kind of needs to get home soon.

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Speaker 2: My dog and I get socially exhausted. My dog has

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Speaker 2: to record some podcasts in the morning.

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Speaker 3: There you go.

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Speaker 2: So polio almost exclusively affects children, and I'm going to

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Speaker 2: get into it because polio might come back because of

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Speaker 2: the motherfucker in charge of the fucking anyway, whatever, we'll

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Speaker 2: get to that. When you first get polio, you get

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Speaker 2: a runny nose and a sore throat. Then you get

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Speaker 2: a fever, then horrible pain throughout all your muscles or

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Speaker 2: some of your muscles, depending, leaving you thrashing and misery

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Speaker 2: in your bed. Then when the fever breaks, it's not over.

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Speaker 2: It means the virus is moved from the blood to

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Speaker 2: the nervous system. Within a few days, your muscles become paralyzed,

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Speaker 2: but your body doesn't go numb. You can still feel

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Speaker 2: all your muscles, you just can't use them. Among people

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Speaker 2: catch it symptomatically like this. I have read a ten

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Speaker 2: percent mortality rate, and I have read a twenty five

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Speaker 2: percent mortality rate. I believe the lower number. It kills

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Speaker 2: you by paralyzing essential functions. If it goes up in

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Speaker 2: your brain, you will stop being able to swallow. You'll

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Speaker 2: foam at the mouth and drown.

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Speaker 3: It's bad, It's really Yeah, that sounds terrible.

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Speaker 2: You the listener have probably seen if you all seen

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Speaker 2: the pictures of iron lungs. Yes, yes, so they have

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Speaker 2: been used for other things. It's like, if your lungs

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Speaker 2: are paralyzed, this is the object that would help you

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Speaker 2: back in the day. Now we use intubation and other

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Speaker 2: things more often, although iron lungs have come back thanks

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Speaker 2: to COVID. Iron lungs are huge metal tubes that you

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Speaker 2: go into with only your head sticking out, and the

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Speaker 2: machine varies the air pressure, so it sort of breathes

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Speaker 2: for you. Your head's not in it. But basically it's

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Speaker 2: a like forces your chest to expand. It brings airs,

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Speaker 2: and it's like manually working of bellows. If your lungs

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Speaker 2: are paralyzed, you need this thing. Most people only spent

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Speaker 2: about two weeks or a couple of months in the

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Speaker 2: iron lung while recovering. But plenty of people and every

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Speaker 2: time I say people, when I'm talking about polio, I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about children. Plenty of children. Well, I guess in

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Speaker 2: this case, people live their entire lives in iron lungs.

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Speaker 2: There is one woman, Martha Lillard, who got polio nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifty three when she was five years old, who was

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Speaker 2: still alive as of when I looked, and still lives

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Speaker 2: in one. And she's having trouble finding parts to keep

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Speaker 2: her iron long in good repair because she's the only

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Speaker 2: person living in one. Long term left people often regained

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Speaker 2: some use of their muscles, but generally people were disabled

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Speaker 2: for life, and polio scared the piss out of everyone.

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Speaker 2: It was killing and paralyzing children. The most famous polio

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Speaker 2: survivor is Franklin Roosevelt, the progressively served as President of

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Speaker 2: this country for the longest and could scarcely walk and

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Speaker 2: relied on leg bracestm wheelchairs. So in nineteen sixteen there

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Speaker 2: was this massive polio outbreak in New York City. Basically,

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Speaker 2: summertime in major cities was polio's time to shine. Babies

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Speaker 2: were dying of polio at a fantastic and terrible rate,

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Speaker 2: one every two and a half hours. Jesus Christ, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's too often. There's I've read so many stories about

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Speaker 2: doctors who are like, I don't know, just like walking

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Speaker 2: through these wards and just being like watching children dying constantly.

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Speaker 2: And there's a lot of emotional stuff I didn't put

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Speaker 2: in this part of it. It's transmission wasn't yet understood.

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Speaker 2: People assumed it was airborne basically, and they tried everything

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Speaker 2: to stop it. Families were quarantined, windows were screened to

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Speaker 2: keep flies away, the trash got picked up extra well.

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Speaker 2: Those two things actually probably helped them. Playgrounds were shut down.

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Speaker 2: Kids had their noses and throats rinsed with salt water daily,

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Speaker 2: which has got to be one of the worst things

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Speaker 2: that I can imagine happening on a daily basis. Most tragically,

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Speaker 2: seventy two thousand stray cats were killed by the city

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Speaker 2: because people thought they spread it and none of it worked.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it did work to save everyone who

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Speaker 2: has polio, and Sophie, I think we can promise that

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Speaker 2: all of the following people are capable of curing polio. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: why not, it's our response. They're all legally capable of

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Speaker 2: understanding what parody is and not getting mad about this

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Speaker 2: ad transition. That's what they're capable of doing. Here's a

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Speaker 2: bunch of ads, and we're back. But unfortunately, they didn't

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Speaker 2: have the products that support this podcast yet, or they might.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what we got advertised. Some of that

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Speaker 2: stuff has been around for a while, but they didn't

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Speaker 2: have enough of it. They didn't even have podcasts back then.

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Speaker 2: They had to listen to people on soapboxes and radio.

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Speaker 2: And actually we've been doing basically the equivalent of podcasts forever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, honestly, like, if you're thinking about a

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Speaker 3: lot of this sounds like COVID to me, And I

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Speaker 3: feel like the whole manosphere thing that happened during COVID,

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Speaker 3: where people were isolated and they didn't have real information

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Speaker 3: and they were just like, I don't know, I don't

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Speaker 3: understand that a lot of negative things around health came

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Speaker 3: out out of that, and it's still impacting us to

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Speaker 3: this day, which I'm sure we'll talk about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of overlaps between this and like

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Speaker 2: we will talk about some like really early anti vaxxers

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Speaker 2: during this, But there was actually this thing where like

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Speaker 2: it seems like from the reading that more people were

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Speaker 2: willing to trust experts than like currently.

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Speaker 3: That's fun. Yeah, I love that.

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Speaker 2: People started fleeing the city. And to be clear, there's

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Speaker 2: outbreaks everywhere, but New York City is like particularly bad.

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Speaker 2: Twelve hundred kids a day escaped the city with their

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Speaker 2: families for a little while, but then other cities soon

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Speaker 2: stopped letting them come in. Kids and babies were taken

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Speaker 2: to Kingston Avenue Hospital and quarantined for two months, away

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Speaker 2: from their families, and then cops would go around and

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Speaker 2: steal children from their families to take them to the

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Speaker 2: hospit all. I only got one sentence of that, and

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Speaker 2: I want to know more about what happened there. Was

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00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 2: it like you got a runny nose, Now you got

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Speaker 2: to go to the you know, quarantine, the death land.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, the.

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Speaker 3: Police are coming, you know, I have had a couple

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Speaker 3: of instances where I have had something like swine flu,

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Speaker 3: and basically they've been like, you're going to this quarantine zone.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't know what was happening, and they just

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Speaker 3: told me where to go.

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Speaker 2: Wait, you've been quarantined by who. What happened?

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Speaker 3: I was quarantined just multiple times. One time when I

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Speaker 3: was flying into the US. That was when I had

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Speaker 3: bird flu. One time at college when I had swine flu,

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Speaker 3: uh huh, and they didn't want to report it because

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Speaker 3: if they had to report it, they would have shut

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Speaker 3: down the university. And then another time where a doctor

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Speaker 3: was just like, please go home and quarantine.

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Speaker 1: I feel really great about that. That made me really confident.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they basically were like, just don't tell Anyboddy, go

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Speaker 3: back to your door.

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Speaker 1: I feel really confident about the American education system. I

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Speaker 1: feel like we're really setting the priority straight.

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Speaker 3: They did give me a mask and some clothes and

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Speaker 3: the instructions to stay in my room away from people

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Speaker 3: for a couple of days.

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Speaker 2: So college kids are notoriously good at following instruction.

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Speaker 3: Definitely socializing. It was also Halloween. I remember very specifically

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Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 2: My Halloween costume is the person with mask and gloves.

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Speaker 3: I did stay in my room.

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Speaker 2: That's good.

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Speaker 3: I did.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's good. So if there's ever like a new

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Speaker 2: animal named flu, are you just personally convinced that you

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Speaker 2: are going to get it? Kind of like once there's

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Speaker 2: like a snake flu, I'm like staying away from you

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Speaker 2: for a while.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think that's fair. I think that's a really fair response. Honestly.

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Speaker 2: Well, just like the thing that saved you, the epidemics

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00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 2: stopped because summer stopped. Two four hundred people, mostly kids

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Speaker 2: under five, died in New York City that summer, and

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Speaker 2: around nine thousand were paralyzed. Nationwide, twenty seven thousand kids

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Speaker 2: died or paralyzed, and I don't know which because it

407
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 2: was confusingly written, and I tried across reference, but it

408
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 2: doesn't always work. It was a bad summer. Every summer

409
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Speaker 2: across the world, polio came back, and it mostly slowly

410
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Speaker 2: got worse. Fifteen thousand kids a year were disabled by

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Speaker 2: polio in the United States, and is peaked in nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifty two. In the early nineteen fifties, the thing that

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Speaker 2: most Americans were afraid of was nuclear war, which makes

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Speaker 2: sense The second thing after that that they were the

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Speaker 2: most afraid of was polio. And it's like one of

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Speaker 2: those things where it's like polio's is like an old

417
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Speaker 2: timey disease. You're like, oh, that could have been like

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Speaker 2: that bad. We're still around as a species, and I've

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Speaker 2: never met anyone in polio, you know, right, maybe most

420
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Speaker 2: people are better at thinking things through than I would

421
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Speaker 2: have been.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, it had a huge impact though. I know

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Speaker 3: we've talked about it, but in terms of like the

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Speaker 3: ADA and all those kind of things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, one of the things that we're not going

426
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 2: to get into too much, but the start of the

427
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Speaker 2: disability rights movement and also the start of the concept

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Speaker 2: of physical therapy. Yeah, comes out of polio. And of

429
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,479
Speaker 2: course that was done by a woman and isn't as

430
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Speaker 2: written about as much. And then I'm as guilty as

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Speaker 2: anyone else because instead I'm going to complain about a man.

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Speaker 2: That's the main thing I'm gonna do this episode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes you've just got to

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Speaker 3: complain about a man.

435
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, under totally, totally. In nineteen fifty five, the polio vaccine,

436
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 2: the first one was administered, and the way it's usually

437
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 2: presented is that basically overnight polio dropped from disabling fifteen

438
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 2: thousand kids a year to about one hundred cases a year.

439
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: This isn't true. It did start turning the tide dramatically,

440
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: but it wasn't until nineteen sixty two, I think when

441
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 2: the other vaccine that we'll talk about later came in

442
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 2: that it started dropping to one hundred cases a year.

443
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 3: So was it a kind of marketing thing.

444
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 2: It's that people want a simple history with a hero,

445
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 2: and Jonas Salk, the guy that we're going to talk about,

446
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: mostly was a hero. He stopped polio. You know, by

447
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine. Polio is effectively eliminated in the United

448
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:49,479
Speaker 2: States until the modern anti vax movement, which is basically

449
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 2: a death cult.

450
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 3: Uh huh.

451
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, the US got some cases of

452
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 2: polio for the first time since nineteen seventy nine.

453
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: Great, yeah, with RFK Junior charge moving forward, well, let's let's.

454
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: Talk about that real quick. RFK Junior soon to be

455
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 2: remembered as one of history's greatest monsters. Yes, he has

456
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: gone on record to say that the polio vaccine has

457
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: quote killed many, many, many, many many more people than

458
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: polio ever did such an idiot uh huh wow, because

459
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: he was like, oh, he like gives people cancer or something.

460
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: And also he claims that the vaccine didn't actually reduce

461
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 2: polio cases, that it is quote a mythology and quote

462
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 2: just not true. Studies have shown, of course, that the

463
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 2: polio vaccine does not cause cancer, and that polio has

464
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 2: been pretty much completely eliminated worldwide because of these vaccines.

465
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 2: Everyone of every political party who allowed RFK Junior to

466
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 2: come to power has fucking blood on their hands. Yeah,

467
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: polio is bad and it was real bad. And this

468
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 2: is the story about people developing the vaccine, but it

469
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 2: actually starts in its way with people fighting against the flu.

470
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 2: So we're gonna talk about the flu real quick too.

471
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: The flu is way harder to vaccinate against, although we

472
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: do it fairly well. Regardless, people should get their flu shots.

473
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,959
Speaker 2: I never bothered because I was like, I'm young and

474
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 2: can do whatever. And then I like have a doctor

475
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 2: friend and he's like, that's not the point. The point

476
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: is that if you don't get it, old people die.

477
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: I'm also like closer and closer to an honorary old

478
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: person myself, but yeah.

479
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 3: I had the same thing where it's like I don't

480
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 3: need it. It just kind of makes me feel a little

481
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 3: off for a couple of days. Why should I get it?

482
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: And then somebody sat me down and was like, it's

483
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 3: not just about you. Yeah, yeah's kind of the point totally.

484
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: And there's like some people who can't get the shot

485
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: at all because they're immuno compromised. I think there's seventeen

486
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: million people living in the US who have actual medical

487
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: reasons that they can't get vaccinated, do an immunocompromisation. Whatever.

488
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: We still successfully vaccinate against the flu, even though mutates

489
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: all the time, which is why it's like less effective. Right.

490
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 2: The polio vaccine was like good by polio, right, and

491
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 2: we haven't been able to say good bye flu. Polio

492
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: doesn't like to mutate all that much, but the flu

493
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 2: mutates like it's its full time job. You have the

494
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: polio outbreak of nineteen sixteen, and then you have the

495
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 2: Spanish flu, which is the closest COVID parallel, especially because

496
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: they wore masks and stuff. And this is a global

497
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 2: pandemic from nineteen eighteen to nineteen twenty, and this fucking

498
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: thing killed like twenty five to fifty million people and

499
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: a lot of people. Yeah. This was during World War One,

500
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: and the Spanish flu was as good at killing soldiers

501
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 2: as masked charges against machine guns was like World War

502
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: One was like when we were really bad at understanding

503
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: that you can't charge a machine gun, you know, and

504
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: so they would be like, Oh, to send more young,

505
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: poor people in front of that machine gun, that'll work.

506
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 2: I think for actual soldiers, combat deaths edges out. I

507
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 2: didn't write down the numbers, but they're in the running

508
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 2: with each other. The thing that really scared people about

509
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: the Spanish flu is that it was affecting healthier people

510
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: than the flu usually did, and we didn't have the

511
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: flu shot yet, but public health departments did their best.

512
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 2: I think there's kind of this interesting thing where it's

513
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: like people do try, you know, and you're like, oh,

514
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 2: they did things wrong, and you're like, yeah, yeah, but

515
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,719
Speaker 2: they did things they Yeah, they did what was what

516
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 2: they thought they could, you know.

517
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, going back to my friends who works in the

518
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: health industry, they were trying to learn as much as

519
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: they could about in this case, COVID, but it was

520
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 3: constantly changing. They were getting new data. It was moving

521
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: so quickly. I can only imagine back in nineteen seventeen, yeah,

522
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 3: or nineteen thirteen. But yeah, yeah, in that area.

523
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: In front of me.

524
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I memorized you know that, Yeah, that wasn't

525
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: you didn't have ready access. Actually, that's kind of an

526
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 3: interesting juxtaposition of like, in some cases I think that

527
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 3: boone is having more access than maybe in other cases

528
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 3: it's kind of a detriment, which is what we're seeing

529
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 3: today in terms of you know, misinformation disformation. But oh yeah, totally,

530
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 3: but not that that didn't exist before. But yeah, but

531
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 3: she was saying that we were always trying to figure

532
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,959
Speaker 3: it out as quickly as we could to get solutions

533
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 3: because there are also people who don't want their loved

534
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 3: ones to die, I know.

535
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: And it's like, oh, you said last week it was this,

536
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: and you're like, yeah, you're aware that, Like the whole

537
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: point of science is to change your mind as new

538
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: information comes in, but then act on the best available

539
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 2: information the entire time. Like that doesn't feel like a

540
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: hard concept from my point of view.

541
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, no, that makes total sense that you

542
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 3: would get new information, take that in and then make

543
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: your informed opinion.

544
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so in New York City, when the Spanish

545
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: flu came. They basically built a social distancing infrastructure. They

546
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: staggered business hours so that not everyone was on public

547
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: transit at once. They got rid of rush hour in

548
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: order to fight the flu. Oh wow, I wish they

549
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: would just do that anyway, what am I saying? I

550
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: live in the mountains. I haven't had to deal with

551
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: rush hour, and like, I don't remember how many years

552
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: they got.

553
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 3: Well it's painful.

554
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's no one around. Yeah, like you like,

555
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: we have to like wait for a tractor. That's the

556
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: most annoying thing that I have to.

557
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 3: Put up with, you know, hilarious.

558
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: But then when you finally pass them, they're just like, oh, hey,

559
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: how's it going, you know, give the wave. Yeah. They

560
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 2: also got theaters to sell only half their seats to people,

561
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: so you have an empty seat next to you. And

562
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: people started covering their mouths when coughing, which was a

563
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: new technology at the time.

564
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: Wow, I love this. See I do the vampire cough.

565
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah no, yeah, we've moved from hands to the yeah.

566
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

567
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: Bodies piled up unburied, and in nineteen eighteen, twenty one

568
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: thousand New York City children were orphaned, and that is

569
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: the New York city that our main character of the

570
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: week was born into, the one that his competitor would

571
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: move to. Jonas Salk was called a hero, and he

572
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: seemed to kind of revel in that identity. There's a

573
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: lot of like arguments this is a man that there

574
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 2: are hagiography is about. This is a man where they're like,

575
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: either he's just a complete piece of garbage or like

576
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: almost everything you read about it is like he's just

577
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: basically the best. This is Jesus walking amongst us. You know,

578
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: much like Jesus. He was Jewish, he was hard working

579
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: as fuck, and he tirelessly worked to make the world better.

580
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: He also wasn't the only person doing this work.

581
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: Oh.

582
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: Also, we'll get to this at the end. He was

583
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: like a eugenicist and had really wild ideas and it

584
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: was a real sketchy.

585
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: Oh that's fun, Tea said.

586
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: His wife dihorsed him and for pretty solid reasons. And anyway,

587
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: we'll get to that.

588
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 3: Did it go, girl, Yeah, you're a eugenicist. I think

589
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 3: I should get out of it.

590
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, yeah, And I think there were

591
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: a lot of breakups around Trump's election, you know, I

592
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: think that there was a lot of people who are like, oh,

593
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: I could put up with my boyfriend until this is

594
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: just the step too far, this is too real now.

595
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure I.

596
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: Met someone who would that basically happened to and I

597
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: don't feel bad for him at all, but I'm like, oh,

598
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry that you wait. Nope, never mind. Anyway,

599
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: Jonahsok wasn't the only person doing this work around vaccines,

600
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: and people have complained about him taking credit for more

601
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 2: than his own work. And he started off his life

602
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 2: as a leftist. He was actually investigated by the FBI

603
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: for communist sympathies. Then he moved to a political and

604
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: he wound up writing mystical eugenesis shit about how scientists

605
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: should control the human race genetically by introducing viruses into

606
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: people's embryos. That's the big medical hero the twentieth century,

607
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 2: Jonas Salk. But one thing that Jonas Salk had access to, no,

608
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: he didn't. Actually he raised very poor. Well, I bet

609
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: some of our products and services were actually affordable. So

610
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: probably because some of them are just losing your life

611
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: to Anyway, here's some ads. I love all of them

612
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: and have no complicated feelings about the nature of my work.

613
00:33:52,920 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: Here they are. We're back and we're talking to Jonas

614
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: Salk born with no middle name, but he's going to

615
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: get one in an interesting way.

616
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 3: Can't wait.

617
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 2: That's my teaser. And it's not like me just adding

618
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: a eugenicist in quotas the middle name or whatever. No,

619
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: he actually gets an actual middle name. Jonah Salk was

620
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 2: born on October twenty eighth, nineteen fourteen, in East Harlem

621
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: in a tenement building. He was the first son of

622
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: Dora and Daniel Salk. His mother was a Russian Jew

623
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: from what's now Belarus. Her own parents had owned a

624
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 2: tavern in Minsk. Dora came over to Manhattan with her

625
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: family when she was thirteen, where she lived with others

626
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: in the wildly overcrowded tenements of the Lower East Side

627
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: and worked in the garment industry, which was not known

628
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: for good working conditions. And people who've listened to this

629
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 2: show and order have much of a grasp know that

630
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: the reason that Jews were leaving the Russian Empire is

631
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: that the Pograms were real not nice. The family did

632
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: fairly well for themselves, and Dora became a foreman at

633
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: the you know, tenement of sewing garment industry whatever. I

634
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: don't know the name of the place she worked, and

635
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: the family moved to East Harlem, where like more people

636
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 2: had like actual homes, but were still kind of crowded

637
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 2: into them. This is a like move from like poverty

638
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 2: to lower middle class. That's the best I can tell, Okay.

639
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: Jonas's dad, Daniel, was a Lithuanian Jews born in the

640
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: US and a lace maker who designed women's neckwear. He

641
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 2: was quiet and humble. His mom was driven in loud.

642
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: I have read so many biographies for this work where

643
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: they just like really want to complain about overbearing moms,

644
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 2: to the point where I actually just question everything about

645
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 2: the way the history is presented.

646
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the history of the overbearing mom, I

647
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 3: always question it every time I see it.

648
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, in this case, Jonas likes his mom

649
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: and appreciates that she was a taskmaster.

650
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 3: Okay, okay.

651
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: When they wound up with Jonas their eldest kid, mom

652
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: was very active in directing his education and making sure

653
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 2: he started reading right away. And shit, she became a

654
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 2: stay at home mom and was apparently kind of domineering.

655
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: Our boy, Jonas skipped a bunch of grades, was very quiet,

656
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 2: ignored sports, and read books. He wasn't a very happy kid.

657
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: His mother treated him like an adult pretty much right away.

658
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 2: But he never blamed anything on his mother and said

659
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 2: that he inherited her work ethic and is very grateful

660
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: for it. And it is important to this story that

661
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: he is a Jewish kid, the child of an immigrant.

662
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 2: His Judaism is important to his work. He's not necessarily

663
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: like super observant near the end of his life as

664
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: a kid, he is, but though like cultural and sort

665
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 2: of theological underpinions remain important to him. I believe his

666
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 2: entire life he consciously accepts the Jewish obligation of takun alum,

667
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: which is repairing the world. You have an obligation to

668
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 2: make the world a better place, which is I think

669
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 2: cool as hell, although obviously people can interpret that to

670
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 2: me and I want to inject viruses and the children

671
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: to make them have different you know, genetic structures. But

672
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: first he just saves millions of lives.

673
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 3: Right, you know, at this level.

674
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he doesn't do any of the philosophical stuff

675
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 2: he dreams of later. So the thing he practically.

676
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 3: Does, it just seems a dream he has in his head.

677
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: I like went back and forth like four times already.

678
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: I had a moment where I was like, do I

679
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: have to just scrap this and styling, and I'm like,

680
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: he's just actually complicated and overall not looking great, but

681
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: he's still interesting. Early on, he decides that he wants

682
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 2: to work relieving the suffering of the sick and the injured.

683
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: And there's so much myth making about this guy, and

684
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: like there's like things you'll read where he's like he

685
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 2: saw the nineteen sixteen and nineteen eighteen pandemics, and I'm like, no,

686
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 2: he didn't. He was like three years old. He did, though,

687
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: grow up in the wake of those crises, and he

688
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: absolutely grew up knowing people who were paralyzed and dealing

689
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 2: with a lot of disability as a result of folio.

690
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: When he was twelve, he went to an all boys

691
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 2: prep school for City College. This school is free, but

692
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,399
Speaker 2: it's incredibly hard to get into, which means that it's

693
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 2: mostly the children of immigrants who go there, and especially

694
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 2: Jewish immigrants based on the demographics of New York at

695
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: the time. I like grew up so outside of this concept.

696
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 2: This place is is like preppy I like didn't understand

697
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: what a prep school was. This place is as preppy

698
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: as a prep school can prep. Their school newspaper is

699
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: in Latin.

700
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 3: Oh okay.

701
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is more of a humanities school than a

702
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: stem school. And once he was there, he did not

703
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: stand out. He was class secretary, but not class president.

704
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: The only thing that stood out about him was that

705
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: he was a sharp dresser. He was quiet and dedicated

706
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: and figured he'd become a lawyer or a politician to

707
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 2: make the world better. Once again, politicians famously always making

708
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 2: the world better.

709
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 3: Definitely. Also just like I guess I'll just be a lawyer, yeah,

710
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 3: or a politician.

711
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever ever makes the world better. One of those

712
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: things I don't know. Yes, he was a prep school nerd.

713
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 2: He was in the Current History Society, and he was

714
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 2: in the Law and Debate Society. Oh wow, the Law

715
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: and Debate Society is one society. So that sounds extra miserable.

716
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 3: That sounds really intense. Yeah, law and debate, yeah, not

717
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 3: just debate. Yeah, we must have the law.

718
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: Whoever wins the debate gets to tell everyone who lives

719
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 2: and dies, so it's going to be totally normal.

720
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

721
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 2: He was the advertising manager for the yearbook and assistant

722
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 2: business manager of the school paper. They get a picture

723
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 2: of this guy, you're just like, he doesn't have a

724
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 2: lot of friends, Like, no one hates him. He's just there,

725
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 2: you know.

726
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was doing a lot. We must say it was.

727
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 2: You want to guess what year he started college?

728
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 3: No, yeah, he least.

729
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: Don't make me he was fifteen years old when he

730
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: started college, because of course he fucking was.

731
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 3: Oh gosh.

732
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 2: He went to City College, which is what it was

733
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 2: a prep school for that he went to. And City

734
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: College was prestigious and free, and it was also eighty

735
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 2: percent Jewish because it was the place that immigrant kids

736
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 2: can go to. He barely made any friends. He was

737
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: going to do pre law, but then his mom was like, no,

738
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: you'd be terrible as a lawyer. You can't even beat

739
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 2: me in an argument, ow because he's not very like assertive,

740
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 2: you know.

741
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

742
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he went into pre med and then his

743
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: mom was like, now you're too weak to be a doctor.

744
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: You should be a teacher.

745
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: Mom, sounds fun.

746
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: And he stood up for himself again he's myth making

747
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: against his overbearon mom, who he actually loved. He was like, no,

748
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: I like medicine.

749
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: He doesn't have a wife to blame at this point.

750
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: But he will have a wife to blame soon, don't worry. Yeah, yeah,

751
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 2: give it to that.

752
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: Men like this always have some woman where like it

753
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: was her.

754
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. He was like, I'm going to do medicine,

755
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: but I don't want to be a doctor. I want

756
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 2: to do medical science. He had read a book about

757
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 2: Louis Pasteur, the guy who did one a vaccine or whatever,

758
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 2: and he was like, all right, vaccines and shit, that's

759
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 2: my fucking thing. The problem with this, there's this free

760
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 2: school and it's full of Jewish immigrant kids, is that

761
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 2: higher education was anti Semitic and had informal caps on

762
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: the number of Jewish kids admitted. So it was very

763
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 2: hard for the city college kids to get into higher schools,

764
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 2: like once they finished their undergrad This entire establishment was

765
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: built and funded to help the children of immigrants, but

766
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 2: there's like a serious glass ceiling put into place by

767
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 2: WASP America. So Jonah Sulk applied everywhere and every place

768
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: rejected him. Mixed one. So we went to what's now

769
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 2: called the New York University College of Medicine. His interest

770
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: was in medical research and so people were like, just

771
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: get a PhD instead of an MD, and he was like, no,

772
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 2: I'm going to be a doctor, just a research doctor.

773
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: And in this new school he was entirely unremarkable and forgettable.

774
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: He barely made any friends. He lived at home with

775
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 2: his overbearing mom. Sorry anyway, oh god. He had to

776
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: find work to pay for school. So we started working

777
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: in research, and he was good at medical research right away.

778
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 2: If you were interested in animal rights, this man is

779
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 2: not a hero.

780
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 3: I was just one of the many maybe categories we

781
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 3: can say.

782
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that one's like a style at the time thing,

783
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 2: and like animal testing is a complicated subject that I

784
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: don't want to get into the morality of anyway, whatever,

785
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 2: he starts working in research, and he is good at

786
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: this shit right away. His second research project was to

787
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 2: cultivate scarlet fever, or rather the bacteria that causes it,

788
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: and give rabbit scarlet fever. He improved the process of

789
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 2: cultivating bacteria, speeding it up by a factor of seven,

790
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 2: and got his first paper published in an academic journal

791
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 2: when he was twenty two. So this is like kind

792
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 2: of the first time he's like really like standing out, you.

793
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, is overbearing mom.

794
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're all doing air quotes this whole time. I

795
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 2: think everyone can hear it in our voices.

796
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 3: I hope you can hear it an air quote. Yeah,

797
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: has been like, you're not good at this, You're not

798
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 3: good at this. He's been a part of all these

799
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 3: organizations and now has something that he feels good at.

800
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

801
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 3: It's really painting a picture of somebody who was trying

802
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 3: a bunch of things and looking for the one thing

803
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 3: that they would really excel at.

804
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. He's good at this stuff. He might not

805
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: be as groundbreaking as people later paint him, but he

806
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: is genuinely good at this stuff. And when he gets

807
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: interested in vaccines, there are a few bacterial vaccines and

808
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 2: a few viral vaccines around, and bacterial vaccines can be

809
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: made using dead bacteria, but viral vaccines at the time,

810
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 2: like for smallpox, rabies, and yellow fever, they had to

811
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: be made out of weakened but live viruses. So you

812
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 2: isolate a virus, beat it up, tell it that it's

813
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 2: no good, never going to amount to anything, and then

814
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: you inject that into someone and this is seen as

815
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 2: an axiom. Viral infections can only be vaccinated against by

816
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 2: live viruses and live virus vaccines are inherently a bit riskier.

817
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 2: People still use them, and actually it's going to be

818
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 2: a live virus that's going to actually get rid of folio.

819
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: Live vaccines are more likely to provide lifelong immunity. You

820
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 2: and everyone listening to this as likely had both, and

821
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: if you haven't, then get mad at your parents for

822
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 2: not vaccinating you and go get vaccinated. But live vaccines

823
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 2: are not always appropriate. The flu shot we use now

824
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: is an inactive vaccine. It's a dead virus vaccine. And

825
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: Jonas Sulk is part of why we get the flu shot.

826
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: He was working for a virologist named Thomas Francis Junior,

827
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: who was the first man to isolate the flu virus

828
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 2: and later who developed the flu shot, or led the

829
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: research team that developed the flu shot. There's a lot

830
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 2: of I mean, no one's like writing hagiographies about him,

831
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 2: but you know he's part of a team. Thomas had

832
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: Jonas try to stimulate antibodies in mice with that flu virus.

833
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: The basic idea of vaccines, which people probably know, but

834
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 2: in case you don't, say, either contain antibodies to a

835
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 2: viral or bacterial infection or they convince your body to

836
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 2: make its own antibodies, which is even better. So Jonas

837
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: is working to stimulate antibodies in mice with dead flu

838
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 2: virus like a normal person who has normal hobbies. I'm

839
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 2: actually gratefully did this. I'm not complaining.

840
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

841
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, he fell for a woman named Donna Lindsay, who

842
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 2: was an inch taller than him and from a rich

843
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: family and was pursuing her master's in social work at

844
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 2: this point. They're both leftists, and they shared a desire

845
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 2: to make the world better. This does not sound like

846
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: a really great romance. He was completely smitten with her

847
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: and she was like, I don't know. And I've read

848
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 2: it described in multiple places as he basically kind of

849
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 2: wore her down until she was like final, marry you.

850
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 3: Yeah. She was like I don't need you. I'm good.

851
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: But he yeah, he persisted, which means that she's going

852
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: to have to like give up her career and like

853
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: raise their kids, and like it was a you know,

854
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: it was the early twentieth century.

855
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,479
Speaker 3: It was like the type of romances that we still

856
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 3: unfortunate sometimes paint romantically, but at the time was very

857
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 3: romantic of just a man being like I got her eventually,

858
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 3: I wore her dad. Yeah, she saw how smart I was.

859
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 3: I'm not a nerd.

860
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Well, and he's like, she's so beautiful, and

861
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 2: she's always like he's all right, I don't know. He

862
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 2: graduated on June eighth, nineteen thirty nine, and he and

863
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: Donna got married on June ninth, nineteen thirty nine, the

864
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 2: very next day. And the reason it happened in this

865
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:38,280
Speaker 2: order is that she's from this like wealthy Jewish family,

866
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: and his parents don't like that her family isn't really

867
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 2: practicing Jewish, but her family doesn't like that his family

868
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: is poor. Donna's dad is already pretty mad that his

869
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 2: daughter is marrying below her station, so he insisted that

870
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: it be done after he graduated, so that the announcement

871
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: could say Jonas Edward Sulk MD. And you might be

872
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 2: thinking to yourself, but doesn't he not have a middle name? Well,

873
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 2: Donna's dad was mad that Jonas didn't have a middle

874
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 2: name had not been properly anglicized, so he insisted that

875
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 2: Jonas take Edward as a middle name. So he gets

876
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 2: his middle name from his father in law, who's like,

877
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 2: you are an Edward.

878
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 3: Wow, there's also something to be said about you know what,

879
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 3: the day after you graduate, we're just going to take

880
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 3: out all the air out of what you.

881
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 2: Did, Yeah and put it here totally, totally.

882
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a real move. Okay.

883
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 2: So he's married now and I think he moves out

884
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: of the house. He has a two year internship at

885
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 2: a research hospital and he wanted to keep doing virology,

886
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,479
Speaker 2: but he was Jewish and he wasn't from an ivy league,

887
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 2: so he kept getting turned down everywhere. Hill His former supervisor,

888
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 2: Thomas Franz and Junior, the guy who had him testing

889
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,919
Speaker 2: dead viruses on mice, brought him out to ann Arbor,

890
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 2: Michigan to keep working on influenza. Eventually, Donna's going to

891
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 2: be like, I'm you can't just fucking drag me all

892
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 2: over the country for your shitty fucking research and then

893
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 2: ignore me all the time. But that hasn't happened yet,

894
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 2: and he like never talked about her or their relationship,

895
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: like would be shocked to know anyway, they're out ann Arbor,

896
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: Thomas Francis Junior and some others had developed a vaccine

897
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 2: ready for human trials for the first time for the

898
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 2: flu shot and the lab rats that they were going

899
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 2: to use for this were patients at state hospitals for

900
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: people with severe mental illnesses who were not in any

901
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 2: way able to provide meaningful consent.

902
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. I love that.

903
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 2: History is a nightmare land.

904
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 3: Yah okay.

905
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: Jonas Salk spoke at the end of his life about

906
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 2: the importance of taking calculate risks in order to advance science.

907
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 2: He seemed to genuinely consider the human costs of those risks,

908
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 2: but he sure took a lot of them. He oversaw

909
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 2: eight thousand patients who got the vaccine or a placebo.

910
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 2: Antibodies went up, but there was no flu that season,

911
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 2: so they couldn't really prove anything. So they were like, ah,

912
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: the problem is that none of these people got the flu.

913
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 2: Option A, Oh, no way to hear. Option B. Take

914
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 2: infected mouse lung tissue and spray it into people's noses

915
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: who are not able to consent because they have severe

916
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: mental illnesses and rewards of the state. He goes for

917
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 2: Option B.

918
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 3: Yep, that's what I was afraid of. Yeah.

919
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 2: This kind of thing did not fall out of style

920
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 2: until the Nuremberg Trials of nineteen forty seven, when people

921
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 2: were like, maybe there should be ethical standards for testing

922
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 2: on people.

923
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe there's a lot of stuff that the Nazis

924
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 3: did that was kind of just what everyone in the

925
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 3: West was doing, but cranked up like three notches.

926
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, and it made everyone feel like, oh,

927
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 2: were we doing.

928
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 3: Let's really go for it. Yeah, if we're gonna do it,

929
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 3: let's just go yeah, and made everybody else be like,

930
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:21,760
Speaker 3: oh yeah, yeah.

931
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: You'd think they'd be like, maybe this eugenics thing is

932
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 2: no good, but it actually took decades before the West

933
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 2: got over their obsession with eugenics. Some people like Sock

934
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 2: died obsessed with I don't know if he defined what

935
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 2: he did as eugenics. I couldn't actually find the answer

936
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 2: to that, but we'll talk about that later. This worked,

937
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 2: the flu shots and the giving people the flu without

938
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 2: their permission. The control group got the flu at about

939
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: fifty percent, while the vaccinated folks got it at sixteen percent,

940
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 2: so it was very effective at stopping the flu that year.

941
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 2: In nineteen forty three, they got to show the world

942
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: that they'd done good as a flu epidemic spread. Twelve

943
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 2: five hundred soldiers were put into a try no need

944
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 2: to spray infected mouse lungs into their noses because there's

945
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: actually a flu this year and only two percent of

946
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 2: the inoculated folks got sick, and the mental patients who

947
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 2: had been tested on the year before were still immune.

948
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 2: So dead viruses can work. And that's where we're going

949
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 2: to leave it today. Our hero is doing great things.

950
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 2: It's just messy. This is just like like he's not

951
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 2: in any way acting abnormally to what he does for

952
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 2: work at this point, and that's just an indictment of

953
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: people refusing to think about ethics.

954
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 3: Wow, well, I'm very eager to see the downfall of

955
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 3: this year. Oh that doesn't happen like the teas of

956
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 3: the downfall.

957
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 2: No, he die as a hero.

958
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 3: Ah Okay.

959
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 2: I started researching him because people painted a real pretty

960
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 2: picture of him, and I was like, he's going to

961
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 2: win to cover because you can paint a real pretty

962
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 2: picture of this man. And like maybe this is just

963
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 2: like a no Heroes moment right where you're like, well, yeah,

964
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 2: whoever does this kind of work is going to have

965
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: a willingness to hurt people to help people in a

966
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 2: way that is like morally messy. But I still kind

967
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 2: of come down on this particular guy not so great.

968
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 3: In the end, I think taking in the complexities of

969
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 3: anybody is good. Yeah, and then like science, weighing the

970
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 3: information you get and forming your opinion.

971
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 2: Ah, all right, well instead of telling the listener what

972
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: to think about this man, you mean, I should just

973
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 2: continue to explain this story and then interesting. Although I

974
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 2: didn't name this cool people did cool stuff, so I

975
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 2: always feel like I got to kind of specifically be like,

976
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 2: this man is not worthy of the title. But the

977
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 2: thing that happened, the creation of a polio vaccine is.

978
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's also complicated, you know, was just called

979
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 3: cool stuff too.

980
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, it's just cool stuff. Well, if people are like,

981
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 2: but I want to hear you any Reese on the

982
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 2: podcast more, but I don't want to wait till Wednesday.

983
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 2: What can they do?

984
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 3: Well, you can find me on stuff when I ever

985
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 3: told you, or savor wherever you get your podcast and

986
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,879
Speaker 3: I'm out and about but not really yeah, fair enough,

987
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 3: I don't even know why say yeah, but yes, you

988
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 3: can find me there.

989
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 2: I finally post on Instagram like yesterday, being like I'm

990
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 2: not checking Dmazon here anymore. I am so tired of

991
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 2: meta with a company.

992
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

993
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 2: That's where I am still on Blue Sky. You can

994
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 2: find me there. I'm on Substack find me there. And

995
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 2: podcasts and also what podcast I listened to this week

996
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 2: that I was like, I can't wait to plug this one.

997
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 3: On air now.

998
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 2: I don't remember what it was. I don't know. Sorry,

999
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 2: it was probably sixteenth minute, but I don't even remember

1000
00:54:58,120 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: what the most recent sixteenth minute was.

1001
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 1: So it's about the Hawk Tua sec scandal.

1002
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean I did listen to that, but I.

1003
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: Was like, that doesn't seem like something you'd be like, wow, wow,

1004
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: wow about really great episode by the way she.

1005
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 2: Listened, it is a good episode. Good yeah, and it

1006
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 2: was a good update to it.

1007
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, but like financial scandal, not really your

1008
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: What was the.

1009
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 2: Most recent Hood Politics?

1010
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 3: Maybe? Is that politics?

1011
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:20,479
Speaker 1: A great show?

1012
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1013
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 2: Well, listen to Hood Politics with prop and sixteenth minute

1014
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,439
Speaker 2: and everything else from cool Zone Media and everything else

1015
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 2: that Annie Reese does, and listen to all of it

1016
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 2: before Wednesday, because I will be quizzing you.

1017
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, hi everyone? Ye.

1018
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1019
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,959
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

1020
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 1: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out

1021
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1022
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 1: your podcasts.