Speaker 1: Hello listeners, Caitlin here dropping in at the top of
Speaker 1: the episode to give you one final reminder about the
Speaker 1: Shrek Tannek tour which starts next week. And you're also
Speaker 1: about to find out that this is my birthday episode.
Speaker 1: So if you would like to give me the most
Speaker 1: wonderful birthday gift of all, you can do so by
Speaker 1: buying tickets to the shows on this tour, which are
Speaker 1: two shows in London on May twenty second, followed by
Speaker 1: a show in Oxford with the Saint Audio Podcast Festival
Speaker 1: on May twenty fourth, then Edinburgh on May twenty sixth,
Speaker 1: Manchester on May twenty eighth, and Dublin on May twenty ninth.
Speaker 1: Right now, there are still a few tickets available for
Speaker 1: all of these shows, and it would just really mean
Speaker 1: the world if you came out to see us live.
Speaker 1: We have so much fun, goofy stuff planned, stuff you've
Speaker 1: never seen or heard before. So do yourself a favor.
Speaker 1: Do not miss these shows, which you can buy tickets
Speaker 1: to at link tree slash Bechdel Cast. We will see
Speaker 1: you there. We are so freaking excited. The other thing
Speaker 1: switching gears here, but the other thing that we want
Speaker 1: to do at the top of the episode is to
Speaker 1: place a content warning for domestic abuse and violence, as
Speaker 1: that is a component of our discussion on this episode.
Speaker 1: Enjoy the episode.
Speaker 2: On the Bechdelcast, the questions ask if movies have women
Speaker 2: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands
Speaker 2: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy? Zeff and
Speaker 2: vest start changing with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 3: Hey Caitlin, Hey Jamie, are you telling me that for
Speaker 3: the last six or seven years you've also been podcasting
Speaker 3: in secret? Well?
Speaker 1: Gee, I don't know. I'm gonna be really secretive about it.
Speaker 3: I guess the only way to get to the bottom
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 1: Is to kill each other, or to join forces and
Speaker 1: do a podcast together.
Speaker 3: Wow, and revitalize our relationship by hot started. God, wouldn't
Speaker 3: that be I haven't seen the reboot, but what if
Speaker 3: that is what happens, mister and missus Smith just start
Speaker 3: a podcast. That would be such a bummer. I really
Speaker 3: hope that that doesn't happen. Did you watch the show?
Speaker 1: I didn't watch the whole thing, but I saw the pilot,
Speaker 1: so I can describe the premise based on that.
Speaker 3: Okay, I read about it, but I feel like that's
Speaker 3: sometimes what happens now on shows where they're just like
Speaker 3: they're under thirty five. Should they have a podcast? Unclear?
Speaker 3: Maybe anyways, do do do? Happy birthday to Caitlin. Maybe
Speaker 3: that's exactly who.
Speaker 1: Oh happy thank you today, Thank you so much. It's
Speaker 1: true as my birthday. And that's why I picked this movie,
Speaker 1: Mister and Missus Smith, two thousand and five, because it
Speaker 1: used to be a movie I really liked and now
Speaker 1: maybe not so much.
Speaker 3: I'm excited and if this happens to be your first
Speaker 3: time around here, because you're a huge mister and Missus Smith,
Speaker 3: two thousand and five fan, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 3: My name's Jamie Loftus.
Speaker 1: My name is Caitlin Drante, and this is our podcast
Speaker 1: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using
Speaker 1: the Bechdel Test just to get the dang conversation going,
Speaker 1: except we wait till the very end of the episode
Speaker 1: to talk about it. Yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 3: It really does, it really does. The Bechdel Test is,
Speaker 3: of course, a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel,
Speaker 3: sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test because she co created
Speaker 3: it with her friend Liz Wallace. Lots of different versions
Speaker 3: of this test. The one we use.
Speaker 4: For our purposes requires that two people, two characters of
Speaker 4: a marginalized gender, speak to each other about something other
Speaker 4: than a man for more than two lines.
Speaker 3: Of dialogue, and it should be a meaningful exchange and
Speaker 3: then we just sort of start the conversation from there.
Speaker 3: It's thrilling.
Speaker 1: So today's movie is, like I said, mister missus Smith, Jamie,
Speaker 1: what is your relationship, if any, with the dang movie?
Speaker 3: Easy? Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. I had never seen this movie.
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm coming in completely cold because not
Speaker 3: only have I never seen this, I had no interest
Speaker 3: in the reboot because I had never seen this. I
Speaker 3: really have never had much of an I mean, especially
Speaker 3: as time goes on, as we'll talk about, I've never
Speaker 3: really had much of an interest in Brad Pitt or
Speaker 3: Angelina jo Lee action movies. So this was just never
Speaker 3: going to be a movie I was good to see. Yeah, fair,
Speaker 3: even though I think that, Like, I mean, when this
Speaker 3: movie came out, he was like eleven or twelve, so
Speaker 3: I feel like I should have been I feel like
Speaker 3: that's a very like gossip magazine age, but I was
Speaker 3: also not very invested in the media narrative. I don't know.
Speaker 3: I guess this one just missed me. I just didn't care. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I have to say not to be a downer
Speaker 3: at the top of the episode. I watched the movie
Speaker 3: and I care less than ever. Yeah, I didn't like
Speaker 3: it very much. Although I do get like watching it now,
Speaker 3: I do get why people liked it at the time.
Speaker 3: I get it. It's a sexy little movie, yeah, and
Speaker 3: it has its moments. But yeah, just really was not
Speaker 3: doing very much for me. Caitlin, what is your history
Speaker 3: with mister and Missus Smith.
Speaker 1: I saw in theaters in two thousand and five. I
Speaker 1: was either a freshman or sophomore in college, so you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't have the most refined taste, and I thought
Speaker 1: this movie was awesome. I was like, Wow, look at
Speaker 1: these hot people being so hot, and they're hot near
Speaker 1: each other, and they're hot on top of each other,
Speaker 1: and they're fighting and then they're kissing and WOWI wow.
Speaker 1: These are all the very nuanced thoughts going through my head.
Speaker 1: And I thought it was a fun movie. And then
Speaker 1: I bought it on DVD and I watched it a
Speaker 1: lot on DVD, and I still have the DVD brag
Speaker 1: for that.
Speaker 3: Your DVD collection is a thing of beauty.
Speaker 1: I really don't stand by a lot of it, but
Speaker 1: it is there.
Speaker 3: That's growth. That's growth.
Speaker 1: I feel like, thank you.
Speaker 3: It's very alarming when someone's taste never changes. Yeah, if
Speaker 3: everyone can vouch for their DVD collection from twenty years ago, folks,
Speaker 3: we've got a problem. You've got to look in word. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, there has to be certain things that you
Speaker 3: cannot answer for.
Speaker 2: M hm.
Speaker 3: What was it like rewatching?
Speaker 1: I thought that the storytelling was sloppy and the pacing
Speaker 1: was really bad. Yeah, because since I first saw this movie,
Speaker 1: I of course went on to get a master's degree
Speaker 1: in screenwriting from Boston University, something I would never mention,
Speaker 1: but I have a far better understanding of, you know,
Speaker 1: narrative structure and pacing. And I was like, oh, this
Speaker 1: movie like lags. There's a lot of like unnecessary repetition
Speaker 1: in the exposition, Like this could have been streamlined significantly.
Speaker 1: I thought the storytelling was just like not very well done,
Speaker 1: especially in Act one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was sort of those movies where I couldn't
Speaker 3: tell if it was the writing or if I was
Speaker 3: just bored. But I did find like a lot of
Speaker 3: the establishing information confusing, right, I mean, this is just
Speaker 3: movie logic. But I'm like, they didn't know, right then,
Speaker 3: you guys are a joke. You're bad at your job
Speaker 3: because you're not being very subtle.
Speaker 1: They are pretty bad at their jobs. The other thing
Speaker 1: about this movie is that so I teach screenwriting classes
Speaker 1: using aforementioned degree that I would never mention.
Speaker 5: Plus plus plugs, and the main assignment in my intro
Speaker 5: level class is for students to write a film treatment.
Speaker 1: And I send them various treatments as an example of
Speaker 1: what to do and how to write a treatment. And
Speaker 1: I would say the best one I have found after
Speaker 1: scouring the internet is the treatment for mister and Missus Smith. Really,
Speaker 1: a lot of the treatments are either that are available
Speaker 1: online at least that I have access to. They're either
Speaker 1: a James Cameron's script Mint, so it's like seventy pages
Speaker 1: long and he basically just wrote the script but kind
Speaker 1: of summarized it also, so those aren't useful, or their
Speaker 1: treatments that just like aren't very good at encapsulating like
Speaker 1: what the story of the movie is. So even though
Speaker 1: this is like not a masterpiece of cinema, the treatment
Speaker 1: for it is at least effective at being a treatment
Speaker 1: and serving the purpose that a treatment is supposed to serve.
Speaker 1: So I send this to all my students, and this
Speaker 1: is kind of like the main one that we study,
Speaker 1: and so I'm constantly rereading the treatment for this movie.
Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah, So, like you actually have a consistent and
Speaker 3: like rather intimate relationship with this movie.
Speaker 1: This is wild, right, But I hadn't rewatched the movie
Speaker 1: probably since like twenty ten, twenty eleven, Like it definitely
Speaker 1: fell off for me, and it wasn't something I was
Speaker 1: consistently watching after the first few years of enjoying it.
Speaker 1: But I do have this kind of like intimate relationship
Speaker 1: with at least the premise of the movie, and so
Speaker 1: I was excited to go back and rewatch it to
Speaker 1: see if it held up at all. And I would say,
Speaker 1: generally the answer is no, although I don't know if
Speaker 1: it was just the nostalgia, but I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: still having fun. There's still some fun set pieces and sequences.
Speaker 3: Definitely, and also I mean like there's certain like images
Speaker 3: where well, I don't even know if this is necessarily true,
Speaker 3: but there are a few images in this movie that
Speaker 3: I'm like, they don't make shots like that anymore. And
Speaker 3: I'm thinking of Angelina Joe snapping someone's neck basically as Catwoman,
Speaker 3: then jumping off a building with an umbrella and getting
Speaker 3: into a cab all in the space of twenty seconds.
Speaker 3: I'm like, yes, now that was cinema. That was cinema.
Speaker 3: That was pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: The movie feels like a movie in that moment.
Speaker 3: The movie was really feeling like a movie, because this
Speaker 3: is not a movie in which magic is a factor.
Speaker 3: But like Catwoman, Mary Poppins, I know there was some
Speaker 3: sort of gadget, but I was like, no way, no way.
Speaker 3: I know, wow, that's passive. Well, I'm excited to talk
Speaker 3: about the story. I also did a fairly deep dive
Speaker 3: on the meat because I mean that to me, when
Speaker 3: I think of mister and Missus Smith, I think of
Speaker 3: the media cycles around it more so than the movie
Speaker 3: that I didn't care about, never saw. So we're firing
Speaker 3: on all cylinders today because it was. I mean, it's
Speaker 3: probably one of the most famous tabloid sagas of our
Speaker 3: lifetime that has oh boy been, I think thoughtfully reappraised
Speaker 3: many times in the last couple of years. And also
Speaker 3: Brad Pitt is a domestic abuser. We simply have to
Speaker 3: say it at the top of the show. Whose children
Speaker 3: hate him? So you know, so much to talk about today,
Speaker 3: a rich church uterie of discourse.
Speaker 1: Indeed, shall we make a quick break and then come
Speaker 1: back for the recap. Let's do that, Okay, and we're back.
Speaker 3: We're back. It's still Caitlin's birthday and we are mister
Speaker 3: and missus Smith. Can I just say before we even start,
Speaker 3: how I've never like because I didn't outside of Brad
Speaker 3: Pitt and Angelina Joliet, had no idea who is in
Speaker 3: this movie. I haven't experienced this in a long time,
Speaker 3: But when Vince Vaughn came on the screen, I experienced
Speaker 3: a full body shutter. And I don't even like hate him,
Speaker 3: but I just like, for whatever headspace I was in
Speaker 3: when I was watching this yesterday, I was like, not today, No,
Speaker 3: I can't do Vince Vaughan today. And of course he's
Speaker 3: the worst character.
Speaker 1: In the movie, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: And you're like, why is he here? And then you
Speaker 3: do a little research and you're like, well, it's the
Speaker 3: same director as Swingers. That's why he's here.
Speaker 1: Yes, that is why he's here. And he's playing a
Speaker 1: character that was his like bread and butter during this time,
Speaker 1: and also in Swingers era.
Speaker 3: Misogynists, Piece of Shit, Loser.
Speaker 1: Wedding Crashers, he plays basically the same character. Oh really Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's just like spewing hatred toward women in every line
Speaker 1: of dialogue, and that is his character.
Speaker 3: Also on top of that, it seems like, I don't know,
Speaker 3: I feel like you see misogynist characters who are meant
Speaker 3: to look very like smooth, and then you see misogynist
Speaker 3: characters and I'm just talking about this era of movies
Speaker 3: who it's clear that they're being hateful out of rejection.
Speaker 3: I don't like to see either. But right you know,
Speaker 3: the very like he lives with his mom, which are like,
Speaker 3: it's just all so lazily written.
Speaker 1: And I feel like this movie falls somewhere in the
Speaker 1: middle because we're not supposed to be like, Wow, he's
Speaker 1: awesome and hilarious, but we're also like, he's still an
Speaker 1: ally to the characters we're meant to be rooting for,
Speaker 1: and no one ever calls him out on his behavior.
Speaker 1: So it's just sort of presented uncritically and where I
Speaker 1: think meant to laugh along at what he's saying.
Speaker 3: I think in two thousand and five seems likely. I
Speaker 3: don't know. I haven't seen wedding crashers, and I'm God
Speaker 3: willing I'll never have to. If you're a mad trend,
Speaker 3: and I hope you are, please never vote for wedding crashers.
Speaker 3: But it's on the poll. I never want to watch it.
Speaker 3: If I can get through my whole life with never
Speaker 3: seeing wedding crashers, that'll be all right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3: Anyways, mister and Missus Smith, what happens to this damn movie?
Speaker 1: So we open on a couple's counseling session where we
Speaker 1: meet a married couple mister and Missus Smith, that's the
Speaker 1: name of them, who are John and Jane played by
Speaker 1: Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. And we see them talking
Speaker 1: to the therapist and they are not on the same
Speaker 1: page maritally, and they then start to tell the story
Speaker 1: of how they met. So five or six years ago,
Speaker 1: they were both in Columbia during a flurry of police activity,
Speaker 1: so they kind of come together to keep each other
Speaker 1: safe and they hit it off and have a whirlwind romance.
Speaker 1: A few weeks past, John is talking to his friend
Speaker 1: slash colleague Eddie that's Vince Vaughn, saying how he proposed
Speaker 1: to Jane. They're getting married. Meanwhile, Jane is talking to
Speaker 1: her friend Jasmine played by Carrie Washington, who is too
Speaker 1: good for this movie.
Speaker 3: Kerry Washington is too good for so many of her
Speaker 3: early roles. I just hope that this is the kind
Speaker 3: of movie where you look at the budget and you're like,
Speaker 3: I certainly hope she got a good paycheck.
Speaker 1: I hope, but I also doubt.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I also have such doubts.
Speaker 1: We have such doubts, much like Meryl, Much like Merrill.
Speaker 3: I have such doubts.
Speaker 1: Yes, So they are talking about John aka they're not
Speaker 1: passing the Bechdel test, and Jane thinks that John is
Speaker 1: a construction contractor. John thinks Jane works in tech. What
Speaker 1: they don't know is that actually they're both assassins.
Speaker 3: WHOA. Yeah, I mean so much of this movie plays
Speaker 3: on I think very tropey views of what hetero marriage is,
Speaker 3: which is you secretly hate each other, uh huh. But
Speaker 3: also like this movie just takes it to such a
Speaker 3: far flung extent where I'm just like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: what is this writer's marriage. Like, we're like, obviously it's
Speaker 3: not autobiographical, because then he would be cool. But the
Speaker 3: fact that they're like they don't even know really what
Speaker 3: each other does, I don't know, it's funny. It's weird, right.
Speaker 1: So I have a little bit of information on this, pulling,
Speaker 1: of course, from scholarly journal Wikipedia once again hit me.
Speaker 1: The movie was written by Simon Kinberg.
Speaker 3: Who's written I think some of the most hated X
Speaker 3: Men movies.
Speaker 1: Also, oh, I didn't even realize that.
Speaker 3: Throughout Dark Phoenix, I believe or produce Dark Phoenix.
Speaker 1: Ooof well, he wrote and sold the script while he
Speaker 1: was a grad student, and he had the idea for
Speaker 1: the movie after listening to a couple of his friends
Speaker 1: who went to marriage therapy, and he thought that it
Speaker 1: sounded aggressive and mercenary, and he's like, hmm, this would
Speaker 1: make an interesting template for a relationship inside of an
Speaker 1: action movie. So he just like took his friend's marital
Speaker 1: problems and then put that in an action movie.
Speaker 3: Question mark, So I mean, I don't hate that, Like
Speaker 3: I get what he's saying, but also I don't know,
Speaker 3: it's weird. I sort of thought that, like, the therapy
Speaker 3: was presented less hatefully than therapy often is in movies
Speaker 3: of this era, So it's interesting to think that he
Speaker 3: actually didn't feel that way. Well, who knows, but it
Speaker 3: didn't read to be as like outwardly like I thought.
Speaker 3: It was like a fun framing device that makes it
Speaker 3: clear that he's a piece of shit, which I know
Speaker 3: the movie isn't really capable of showing, but I had
Speaker 3: no issue with the actual framing device.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it works for me. So then we cut
Speaker 1: to five or six years later, and again their marriage
Speaker 1: is rocky and unaffectionate. They are not open with each other.
Speaker 1: They still don't know what the other one actually does
Speaker 1: for a living. Then we see Jane leave one evening
Speaker 1: on an assignment. She goes to see an arms dealer
Speaker 1: pretending to be a dominatrix, then kills him. Meanwhile, John
Speaker 1: assassinates a few guys at a poker game. They both
Speaker 1: make swift escapes, and they reconvene at their suburban neighbors
Speaker 1: holiday party, and we're like, Wow, what a contrast between
Speaker 1: their sexy lives as assassins and suburban life.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of these coming out. I was thinking
Speaker 3: about the bad sorry frank Oz, but the bad Stepford
Speaker 3: Wives adaptation that came out like the year before or
Speaker 3: after this. Like there's a lot of oh yeah, weird attempts.
Speaker 3: I feel like, with like summery blockbusters to comment on
Speaker 3: suburban life. And I'm sure there was a good one.
Speaker 3: I don't know that I've seen it. Anyways, this is
Speaker 3: another one where you're just like, sure, they're not like
Speaker 3: other suburbanites, but like, that doesn't mean that we like that.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, Stepford Wives was the reason that Nicole Kidman, who
Speaker 1: was originally considered for Jane Smith oh right, yes, couldn't
Speaker 1: do the movie because she was too busy filming Stepford Wives.
Speaker 3: Wow. Well, I guess this movie was technically more successful.
Speaker 3: But I mean, I feel like there would be a
Speaker 3: rift in the space time continuum if this movie's casting
Speaker 3: went differently.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, because I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: you would probably never have the Branjelina of it all.
Speaker 3: Which might be for the best for all parties, but
Speaker 3: also like, yeah, if the casting for this movie's leads
Speaker 3: went different, America, as we know it would crumble, like
Speaker 3: what would people have talked about?
Speaker 1: True? In any case, So John and Jane then both
Speaker 1: head off to work at their respective assassin offices, and
Speaker 1: they both get the same assignment to kill Benjamin Dance
Speaker 1: played by Adam Brody, who we've already seen receive an
Speaker 1: assignment of his own, although we don't know what it is.
Speaker 5: See.
Speaker 3: That was my pleasant jump scare was Adam Brodie's appearance
Speaker 3: in this movie had.
Speaker 1: No idea good for him, good for him for.
Speaker 3: A second when I think you first see him from
Speaker 3: the back, and I was like, if that is justin Bartha,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna lose it. But regrettably it was not just.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm happy either way. I'm happy either way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now it's Adam Brody, and he's also being a
Speaker 1: misogynist because he's like ordering a woman to bring him
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee and that's not her job and
Speaker 1: he sucks.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And if there's one thing Adam Brody's gonna do
Speaker 3: and he's typecast, it's be a piece of shit.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 3: I was like, Wow, it's really been twenty years of
Speaker 3: Adam Brody being type cast as a piece of shit.
Speaker 1: I wonder what He's like, in real life, we're seeing
Speaker 1: a pattern, aren't we of male actors being type cast
Speaker 1: as misogynists? Hmm, wonder what's up with that?
Speaker 3: But the twist is, in this movie, we're supposed to
Speaker 3: be rooting for at least one of them. Yeah, we're
Speaker 3: supposed to be laughing, laughing, laughing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyway, So John and Jane separately go to a location
Speaker 1: in the desert near the US Mexico border where they
Speaker 1: know Benjamin is going to be, and they're planning their attack,
Speaker 1: and then they both realize another assassin is there, and
Speaker 1: they try to sabotage the other one because they don't
Speaker 1: realize it's their spouse whoa Neither are successful in their
Speaker 1: mission to kill Adam Brody. Jane flees the scene. Great, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I just started calling him Adam Brody like
Speaker 1: from this point on.
Speaker 3: I mean, what the hell are we supposed to call?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, Benjamin, you're right now, get a grip.
Speaker 1: So Jane flees the scene and John takes her laptop
Speaker 1: to try to figure out who that was. Meanwhile, Jane
Speaker 1: is at Lady Assassin Headquarters Industries because everyone she works
Speaker 1: with is a woman whoa feminism alert.
Speaker 3: I mean it's a fun idea. It's a fun idea.
Speaker 1: Although her boss, who they call Father played by Keith David,
Speaker 1: is I think the only man and he's like, you
Speaker 1: have forty eight hours to clean the scene, aka find
Speaker 1: the other guy and kill him, or else she will
Speaker 1: become the next target. So we cut back to John,
Speaker 1: who finds out an address for the left and goes
Speaker 1: there discovers that it's the office of his wife wa Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Jane is looking at footage of the other Assassin in
Speaker 1: the desert and she realizes it's her husband. So they
Speaker 1: both go home, pretending like everything is normal, but dinner
Speaker 1: is very tense, and then some wine gets spilled and
Speaker 1: they both leave under the pretense of they're going to
Speaker 1: clean it up, but actually John grabs a gun, Jane
Speaker 1: speeds off in the car and they part ways. So
Speaker 1: then John goes to Vince Vaughn's.
Speaker 3: House mistake number one.
Speaker 1: Seriously, Jane goes to Lady Assassin headquarters and talks to
Speaker 1: Kerry Washington. Both John and Jane are relaying that their
Speaker 1: spouse is the other assassin and that they have to
Speaker 1: kill them. Although they seem to be contemplating whether or
Speaker 1: not they can go through with it. The idea is
Speaker 1: they claim to not love each other, but you can
Speaker 1: see that they seem to actually have feelings for each
Speaker 1: other that they're not willing to admit. So John goes
Speaker 1: to Jane's office to try to kill her, although he
Speaker 1: can't go through with it, and she escapes. Then he
Speaker 1: goes to her backup.
Speaker 3: Office question mark, I don't.
Speaker 1: I was also confused, And then she explodes the elevator
Speaker 1: that he's in, except she didn't really mean to, and
Speaker 1: now she's sad, and she goes to a fancy dinner
Speaker 1: by herself and she's having a little tear falling down
Speaker 1: her face. But surprise, John shows up because he was
Speaker 1: in a different elevator I guess.
Speaker 3: And I also was like the writing on that was
Speaker 3: also so confusing. I was like, how did he get?
Speaker 3: I also did. My favorite character in the movie is
Speaker 3: the person that Angelina Jolly works with who kills Brad Pitton,
Speaker 3: and then Angelina Jolly is like, wait, what which First
Speaker 3: of all, you have to brief the room if you're bluffing. Yes,
Speaker 3: So another example of just both of these assassins are
Speaker 3: not very good at being assassins. I don't know why
Speaker 3: they're so high up in assassining. Assassinating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think the first one was good.
Speaker 3: But just that there's like an unnamed character who's like,
Speaker 3: what you said, you said goodbye? Yeah, it's like good
Speaker 3: for her, she's good at her job. Promote her, right.
Speaker 1: So anyway, John shows up to this dinner and they're
Speaker 1: sitting together, guns pointed at each other, trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how to proceed. They dance a violent but also
Speaker 1: jornie tango, but then she tries to kill him again
Speaker 1: by planting a bomb on him. Oops, and she escapes
Speaker 1: and he takes the bomb off or whatever. They both
Speaker 1: race home, but they're talking to each other on the
Speaker 1: phone on the way, and John is trying to be sentimental.
Speaker 1: It's clear that there are feelings between them, but they're
Speaker 1: not really willing to fully admit it. They get home,
Speaker 1: they're sneaking around, they're gathering weapons, and then there's a
Speaker 1: big shootout. Then it turns into hand to hand combat,
Speaker 1: but in so doing they realize that they can't kill
Speaker 1: each other. And then suddenly they're making out and then
Speaker 1: they have sex, and the passion is reignited. In their
Speaker 1: relationship and for the first time, they're honest with each
Speaker 1: other about their lives and their pasts, and they're telling
Speaker 1: each other all of this stuff about who they really are.
Speaker 1: But oh no, now there's a hit out for both
Speaker 1: John and Jane and Vince Fawn gets notification to kill them,
Speaker 1: and other assassins come after them also, So Jane and
Speaker 1: John steal their neighbor's car and escape. There's a whole
Speaker 1: car chase. They kill the people chasing them. Then they
Speaker 1: go to see Vince Vaughn to get some intel on
Speaker 1: who's after them and how many people, and he's like, basically,
Speaker 1: everyone from both of your agencies are going to try
Speaker 1: to kill you. If you separate, you have a shot,
Speaker 1: but if you stay together, you're dead unless you can
Speaker 1: find something that they want more than you. So John
Speaker 1: and Jane kidnap the original target, Adam Brody, and he
Speaker 1: reveals he was never actually the target that they were
Speaker 1: because they're agencies found out that they were married, so
Speaker 1: they set up a sting to get them to kill
Speaker 1: each other, and Adam Brody was just the bait.
Speaker 3: It's the classic I'm just an intern, I'm just a
Speaker 3: little stinker and sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he was the bait and he still is.
Speaker 1: The flock of assassins are approaching, so John and Jane
Speaker 1: do contemplate splitting up and going their separate ways, but
Speaker 1: they decide to stay together and fight, and they end
Speaker 1: up in this like big box store for home goods
Speaker 1: or something. It's like an Ikea.
Speaker 3: Again, some attempt to like be better than the mall
Speaker 3: or whatever. They're like, we're built different, screw the mall.
Speaker 3: You're like, sure, whatever.
Speaker 1: So they're in this store and assassins surround them, but
Speaker 1: mister and missus Smith take out all of the enemies
Speaker 1: and they win, and we cut back to them a
Speaker 1: couple's therapy. Their marriage is in a better place because
Speaker 1: now they're honest with each other and they fuck all
Speaker 1: of the time.
Speaker 5: The end.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and
Speaker 1: we'll come back to discuss. Yay, we're back.
Speaker 3: Okay, where should we begin.
Speaker 1: I kind of want to briefly go through the various
Speaker 1: other renditions of this narrative. Yeah, because there are a few. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're kind of relevant. I suppose I was more just
Speaker 1: sort of interested in them. So there's a Hitchcock movie
Speaker 1: from nineteen four forty one, a rare Hitchcock comedy. Fun fact,
Speaker 1: I watched this movie back in probably like two thousand
Speaker 1: and seven or something because I was like, I like
Speaker 1: mister and missus Smith from two thousand and five, I
Speaker 1: wonder what the Hitchcock one is like, and it basically
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with really. So the story is
Speaker 1: that there's a married couple where the woman finds out
Speaker 1: that their marriage was never actually valid, and so they
Speaker 1: have various arguments and eventually split up and she starts
Speaker 1: dating another man, but her husband, David keeps following her,
Speaker 1: just stalking her, and she keeps being like, no, I
Speaker 1: don't want to get back together with you, and he's like, well,
Speaker 1: what about if we do? And that's basically the story.
Speaker 1: And then they realize that actually they are meant for
Speaker 1: each other, and then they kiss at the end, and
Speaker 1: I guess they get back together. So it's about like
Speaker 1: a marriage that isn't valid and then they have to
Speaker 1: decide if they want to actually be together as a
Speaker 1: married couple or not.
Speaker 3: So very little to do, Okay, a lot of logistics
Speaker 3: in there.
Speaker 1: Yes, I thought the movie was pretty bad. I didn't
Speaker 1: enjoy it at all when I watched it, and so
Speaker 1: great that is that version. Apparently, there is an American
Speaker 1: crime drama TV series that aired for like two months
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six before it got canceled, oh, called
Speaker 1: Mister and Missus Smith. It stars Scott Bacula and Maria Below. Okay, minion, Oh, okay.
Speaker 3: First, that better be how she pronounces it, Maria below, Bello,
Speaker 3: That one I didn't come across. I mean I came
Speaker 3: across the original, but we interesting.
Speaker 1: So the premise for this one, and I think it again,
Speaker 1: only aired for like a dozen or so episodes, But
Speaker 1: the premise is a spy known only as mister Smith.
Speaker 1: That's Scott Bakula works for a private security organization known
Speaker 1: as the Factory, and in the pilot a rival named
Speaker 1: Missus Smith Maria below it comes entangled in a case
Speaker 1: with mister Smith, and then after losing her job when
Speaker 1: the mission fails, the Factory hires her and assigns them
Speaker 1: to work together. And even though they often bicker and
Speaker 1: they know nothing about each other's personal lives, including their
Speaker 1: real names, they make a good team. So this one's closer.
Speaker 3: Right, inching toward what we have?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then as I said, I watched the pilot
Speaker 1: of the twenty twenty four TV series starring Donald Glover
Speaker 1: and Maya Erskin, where two strangers independently agree to become
Speaker 1: secret agents for a mysterious organization undercover as a married couple.
Speaker 1: So in this series, they know that the other one
Speaker 1: is a spy from the very beginning. It's just that
Speaker 1: the marriage is a sham. They are not actually married.
Speaker 1: I don't know how the rest of the episodes pan out,
Speaker 1: but I do know that they like start to get
Speaker 1: to know each other a little bit better. I don't
Speaker 1: know if a romance develops or not. I didn't watch
Speaker 1: that far into it.
Speaker 3: I've heard good things about it. I think it's probably
Speaker 3: worth watching, but this is famously not a TV or
Speaker 3: reading podcast, and so we simply can't speak to it.
Speaker 3: I feel like I missed the media cycle for that series,
Speaker 3: and I am kind of intrigued. I think I will
Speaker 3: watch it.
Speaker 1: I liked the first episode. I would keep going, and.
Speaker 3: I guess time will sort of tell. With the most
Speaker 3: recent adaptation, I feel like, at least at the time
Speaker 3: of this recording, this render of Mister and Missus Smith
Speaker 3: is the best known yes because it was a really
Speaker 3: really really successful movie, like kind of more successful than
Speaker 3: I remembered. It almost made half a billion dollars twenty
Speaker 3: years ago, which is just I guess everybody saw this
Speaker 3: movie except for me. Like pretty wild, pretty impressive and
Speaker 3: one of the kind of I think broiest creative teams
Speaker 3: I've come across in a movie we've covered in a while.
Speaker 3: And that's sort of saying something. We've got the director
Speaker 3: of Swingers and Bourne Identity One, We've got the writer of.
Speaker 3: Actually I did like this movie, but it is I
Speaker 3: think bro Cannon guy Ritchie Sherlock Holmes.
Speaker 1: Oh, I also like the movie.
Speaker 3: He directed what I think is considered the worst X
Speaker 3: Men movie of all time. You know, he's just kind
Speaker 3: of slaying no. But it just took a really interesting
Speaker 3: Broie Missus Smith never stood a chance, is what I'm saying. Yeah,
Speaker 3: in terms of there being any sort of nuance there,
Speaker 3: I kind of want to talk about the characters first
Speaker 3: and then get into the media thing because I feel
Speaker 3: like that's just like almost a whole other podcast. So
Speaker 3: I don't want to forget to talk about the characters. Yeah, Kiten,
Speaker 3: what do you what do you think that mister and
Speaker 3: missus Smith. I don't care for them, and I really
Speaker 3: don't care for mister Smith. I fucking hate the guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is awful.
Speaker 3: To me.
Speaker 1: What I was getting was like mister Smith, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think he's way worse at his job. I think
Speaker 1: that Jane is a more competent spy and you know,
Speaker 1: a woman in an action movie. I appreciate that she
Speaker 1: is the better one at her job, and that's a
Speaker 1: job that in I'm sure real life and in movies
Speaker 1: is commonly associated with a man doing that job. So
Speaker 1: I appreciated that she was at least shown as being
Speaker 1: competent at her job.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: However, I think that as far as characterization goes, like
Speaker 1: what even is her personality? I feel like she's so underwritten.
Speaker 3: I feel like that for every woman we see, really
Speaker 3: because I think it's like even more intensely contrasted between
Speaker 3: Kerrie Washington and Vince Vaughn where they're playing for sure,
Speaker 3: mister and missus Smith's respective best friends. And you can
Speaker 3: just tell that the writer, I mean, Simon Kimberg very well,
Speaker 3: maybe a nice guy, but I don't think he has
Speaker 3: any grip on what women would say to each other
Speaker 3: if left in a room, and it felt clear every
Speaker 3: time that happened, which was almost.
Speaker 1: Never, it was not very much. But even if she's
Speaker 1: interacting with her husband, I feel like she just like
Speaker 1: is a blah nothing like there's no personality there. At
Speaker 1: least John gets.
Speaker 3: Jokes, Yeah, John and Vaughn.
Speaker 1: John and Vaughn. Whether or not you laugh at them
Speaker 1: is kind of beside the point. But they're written in
Speaker 1: such a way that you know they're the funny ones.
Speaker 1: They get the jokes. And meanwhile, Jane is humorless and
Speaker 1: she isn't generating any of the comedy in this action
Speaker 1: comedy aside from maybe one or two punchlines that they
Speaker 1: give her, but generally speaking, like she's sort of a
Speaker 1: nothing character, no personality, She's humorless. Meanwhile, the men get
Speaker 1: to have fun. We were talking about this a lot
Speaker 1: on the Knocked Up episode, where the men are written
Speaker 1: to be funny and goofy and the women are like
Speaker 1: humorless shrews, and I found that to be the case
Speaker 1: for this movie as well.
Speaker 3: I didn't find them to be I guess as like
Speaker 3: shrewy in this movie as they certainly as they are
Speaker 3: in like jud Apatow movies of the same era, I
Speaker 3: guess I more found them to just be nothing right,
Speaker 3: like nothing, which is really frustrated because you consider, like
Speaker 3: Angelaine and jo Lee had an oscar like why didn't
Speaker 3: you write her a part? Which I know happens to
Speaker 3: successful actresses in particular all the time, but it's just like,
Speaker 3: come on, yeah, and I think that you know, she
Speaker 3: and Carrie Washington do everything with what they're given, but
Speaker 3: they're not given very much. And I think that the
Speaker 3: best moments for Angelina and Jolie, I feel like there's
Speaker 3: references to her. I guess what her persona would have
Speaker 3: been at the time, where like she's like this famous,
Speaker 3: gorgeous woman with a history of like publicly being into kink,
Speaker 3: so I feel like there are like references to that
Speaker 3: throughout the day. It's like fun, I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 3: and this happened all the time still, but like you've
Speaker 3: been given this tremendously talented actor and she's just traded
Speaker 3: like a body right and totally, which I feel like
Speaker 3: early on in us doing this show, I like, I
Speaker 3: feel like I had kind of like an undercooked like
Speaker 3: she's being objectified and like, which is very, very often true,
Speaker 3: and I think is often true in this movie. But
Speaker 3: isn't an inherently bad thing to be sexy in a movie?
Speaker 3: Like that's yeah, technically right. Part of the appeal of
Speaker 3: this movie is two hot people fighting. Fine, great, Like
Speaker 3: I'm seated for that, but it's just you also have
Speaker 3: to be able to like do other things, or it
Speaker 3: starts to feel like, well, you're just a body if
Speaker 3: you're not given any sort of like if you don't
Speaker 3: have a character, right, and so yeah, like Brad Pitt
Speaker 3: is hot with a character, and Angelina Jilly is hot
Speaker 3: without a character, and so you're just like, well, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's they did the thing.
Speaker 1: That's men writing a movie for you. I am speculating here,
Speaker 1: but it feels so much to me as I watched
Speaker 1: this movie that the direction that director Doug Lyman was
Speaker 1: giving to Angelina Jolie and every scene was be sexier,
Speaker 1: flutter your eyelashes, do something with your posture.
Speaker 5: Do you know?
Speaker 1: It was like the note was always like be sexier,
Speaker 1: as if like that's a replacement for having a personality,
Speaker 1: because that's what you're seeing in every scene. It's him
Speaker 1: being funny, cracking a joke, being goofy whatever, and then
Speaker 1: her just sort of like pursing her lips or fluttering
Speaker 1: her eyelashes or something like.
Speaker 3: That, which it's like she's great at for sure, but
Speaker 3: also she has a fucking oscar. Like I think that
Speaker 3: you see a lot of the same stuff like we
Speaker 3: talked about truly, like probably over seven years ago now
Speaker 3: the turmb Raider movies, where I think that she is
Speaker 3: objectively less objectified in this movie than she is in
Speaker 3: the turmb Raider movies. But that is not really a
Speaker 3: yardstick that anyone should have to use. Yeah, So, I
Speaker 3: mean it just feels like a classic example of especially
Speaker 3: because while Brad Pitt is a piece of shit domestic abuser,
Speaker 3: he's a good actor. Right, So you have two famously
Speaker 3: talented actors at this time, the more decorated actor is
Speaker 3: being given absolutely nothing, and you know, no one really
Speaker 3: said much about it. And while this movie's coming out,
Speaker 3: Angelina Jolie specifically is getting pummeled in the media, and.
Speaker 1: So it's just almost like society hates women.
Speaker 3: What it's misogyny and soost like everyone hates women. You know,
Speaker 3: the show is about very obvious in this movie, this movie,
Speaker 3: I mean if nothing else. It just feels like lazy
Speaker 3: and it's characterization of women. It's just like neither director
Speaker 3: nor writer talked to any women that they knew to
Speaker 3: see this. I mean, I feel like that's also reflected
Speaker 3: in how lazy the uh attempted, like Upper Crest suburban
Speaker 3: commentary is in this movie where you know, Frank Oztepford
Speaker 3: Wives isn't great, but it's at least specific in like
Speaker 3: what it's trying to do. It doesn't do a great job,
Speaker 3: but you can see the attempt. But it's just like
Speaker 3: men be doing business, women be holding babies and wearing
Speaker 3: ugly sweaters, and you're like, certainly like the rich upstate
Speaker 3: New York white upper class like fair game, but like
Speaker 3: it's not saying anything. I don't know, it was just bizarre.
Speaker 3: I think one positive thing or maybe just one thing,
Speaker 3: let's let's see, let's see this that I was surprised.
Speaker 3: I guess that this wasn't present because I feel like,
Speaker 3: you know, like there are a couple in their thirties
Speaker 3: and their homeowners and blah blah blah, there is not
Speaker 3: any baby storyline between the two of them. I was
Speaker 3: sort of expecting that just because of what I am
Speaker 3: trained to expect from movies about heterosexual couples that are
Speaker 3: thirty or over. And there is like one scene where
Speaker 3: like missus Smith is holding a baby and she's sort
Speaker 3: of like I liked that, and I liked that it
Speaker 3: never came back and you were just like, Okay, they
Speaker 3: don't want kids, and I think that, given the fact
Speaker 3: that their assassins and bad at it, that's probably for
Speaker 3: the best. But that's like, yeah, one of the only
Speaker 3: nice things I can say about this movie is I
Speaker 3: kept expecting that to become a thing and it never did. However,
Speaker 3: so many of the one liners, because like you're saying,
Speaker 3: like he is supposed to be funny, and maybe in
Speaker 3: two thousand five people, I mean people seem to be
Speaker 3: laughing to the tune of half a billion dollars.
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, but.
Speaker 3: Like any like little comment, any quip that he'd throw
Speaker 3: to her would be like I don't like your cooking,
Speaker 3: I don't like you. Like they're also his wife codd
Speaker 3: in a way that like it was annoying because it
Speaker 3: was sexist and annoying, but it was also annoying because
Speaker 3: it just was like bad writing, where like he's talking
Speaker 3: to her, like the quality of her cooking was something
Speaker 3: that we know is very important to her, when we
Speaker 3: have no real reason to believe that that's true. Like
Speaker 3: it just seems like again like the writers being like, well,
Speaker 3: what would hurt a woman's feelings? And I don't know,
Speaker 3: it's just so lazy and felt like dated for two
Speaker 3: thousand and five, like it just sucked.
Speaker 1: Yes, and he's just mean to her.
Speaker 3: He's just mean to her, and then he's slutshames her
Speaker 3: at the end, you know, just anything you could possibly
Speaker 3: imagine that you wouldn't want. It's kind of the murderer's row.
Speaker 1: Yes, there's all these examples of him. He like comments
Speaker 1: on our cooking three times, like why, and then it's
Speaker 1: revealed that like she doesn't cook, like the women at
Speaker 1: Lady Assassin Headquarters cook for her or something. But you
Speaker 1: also like see her preparing food. So I'm like, but
Speaker 1: we are seeing her I don't know anyway.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so like more bad writing and like inconsistent writing,
Speaker 3: but also just like counting on your assumption that any
Speaker 3: woman would be so hurt if her husband didn't like
Speaker 3: her cooking, and you're just like.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, at least she's like I don't care what
Speaker 1: you think about my cooking. Stopped talking about it. Right,
Speaker 1: There are a few things that I don't hate, and
Speaker 1: I think are probably why I connected to this movie
Speaker 1: as much as I did in two thousand five. One
Speaker 1: of them is her participation in the action where and
Speaker 1: we've had this conversation many times at this point as
Speaker 1: far as like, if a woman is allowed to be
Speaker 1: in an action movie, is she allowed to fight? And
Speaker 1: if so, what does that look like? And in this case,
Speaker 1: again we see her being competent at her job. She
Speaker 1: gets to do stuff. She's doing action movie things. She's
Speaker 1: shooting guns, she's driving in the chase scene.
Speaker 3: She's allowed to fight her husband.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's an almost like separate conversation as far
Speaker 1: as like men and women can they fight each other?
Speaker 1: But before I kind of dive more into that, there's
Speaker 1: just like things that she's allowed to do that often
Speaker 1: aren't afforded to women in action movies. You know, there's
Speaker 1: a scene during that chase scene where they're in the minivan.
Speaker 1: John isn't able to take out the last two cars
Speaker 1: chasing them, and so she takes charge and she's the
Speaker 1: one to take out those cars, and there might be
Speaker 1: some like possibly gendered things attached to this, But she's
Speaker 1: the more sort of like meticulous planner assassin. That's her
Speaker 1: approach to her job, whereas John is the more like,
Speaker 1: oh I'll improvise. Oh I'm just gonna wing it. And
Speaker 1: then that manifests and.
Speaker 3: He is very often wrong.
Speaker 1: He's often wrong, and she's usually right. But when she
Speaker 1: calls him out for it, I feel like the movie
Speaker 1: is framing those moments as like she's nagging him and
Speaker 1: he got the job done, so what's the big deal.
Speaker 1: So I was feeling notes of that.
Speaker 3: I kept going back and forth on that, yeah, because
Speaker 3: it's like, I think that you can read it both ways,
Speaker 3: but I just don't see any reason to give a
Speaker 3: generous read to this rider or director, right right.
Speaker 1: So I appreciate her involvement in the action. It's something
Speaker 1: that a lot of action movies before and since this
Speaker 1: movie wouldn't afford even like a lady assassin to be
Speaker 1: as involved in the action as she is. And then
Speaker 1: like we were saying, yes, she and a man are
Speaker 1: fighting each other, and this is another discussion we've had
Speaker 1: many times, I think, most recently on maybe the John
Speaker 1: Wick episode. But it's always been like, should we see
Speaker 1: a man punching a woman in a movie? Can a
Speaker 1: woman and a man fight each other? And I think
Speaker 1: our conversation has evolved over the years, but at least
Speaker 1: in this context, when they are both trained assassins and
Speaker 1: their mission is to kill each other, it stands to
Speaker 1: reason that they would be fighting, and the movie doesn't
Speaker 1: shy away from that. Again, it shows her just as
Speaker 1: competent of a fighter ye as him and their equals
Speaker 1: as far as like hand to hand combat and gun stuff.
Speaker 3: So and gun no, I agree with you. I think
Speaker 3: that that's something that, like, I wonder, I meant to
Speaker 3: look more into this because I feel like for years
Speaker 3: and years, whenever men and women would fight on screen,
Speaker 3: it would launch a bunch of op eds about like
Speaker 3: should this have happened? I will say for this one,
Speaker 3: and I'm wondering. I think that maybe it also has
Speaker 3: to do with how much I was reading about Brad
Speaker 3: Pitt and Angelina Jolie's relationship. It's only in one sequence,
Speaker 3: but let me know what you think. It was bothering me,
Speaker 3: and it could be a personal thing. But in the
Speaker 3: scene where they're fighting in their house, I get it
Speaker 3: like their assassins. I do feel like there's like erotic fighting,
Speaker 3: there's wish fulfillment stuff. It's blah blah blah. They're basically
Speaker 3: b dsming each other with any consent rules because it's
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. Yah, I get it. I do feel
Speaker 3: as if though, that like all of her moves or
Speaker 3: the majority of her moves to me, looked like fight moves,
Speaker 3: looked like martial arts right training, and I felt like
Speaker 3: his moves often looked more just like domestic abuse and
Speaker 3: shoving her against a wall and just throwing her over
Speaker 3: a table, and like, I don't know, it bugged me, Yeah,
Speaker 3: the fight choreography, like he did do martial arts stuff,
Speaker 3: and she didn't break shit over his head. So maybe
Speaker 3: I was reading into it a little too hard, but
Speaker 3: there were like several things, especially because it's Brad Pitt
Speaker 3: and we know he's a domestic abuser, right like that,
Speaker 3: just like I don't know, Yeah, But then in any
Speaker 3: other fight sequence they're in together, it's just that long
Speaker 3: fight sequence where they're fighting each other where it just
Speaker 3: felt like she was almost always doing clear martial arts stuff.
Speaker 3: I felt like he was like half and half he
Speaker 3: was very often just pushing her. I didn't like that
Speaker 3: fight sequence very much.
Speaker 1: That didn't ping for me because I didn't super notice it.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it didn't happen. I would just have
Speaker 1: to like rewatch and look more closely at that. But
Speaker 1: I'd imagine it's because of the whole Oh, he's the
Speaker 1: fly by the seat of his pants assassin and she's
Speaker 1: the meticulous one, and so maybe that also manifested in
Speaker 1: the fight choreography. But then if you're a filmmaker making
Speaker 1: that choice for the characters and for the actors, you
Speaker 1: have to understand the implications of what that actually looks
Speaker 1: like and like, what are the optics of a man
Speaker 1: fighting that way?
Speaker 3: I know, I felt like I was writing the op
Speaker 3: ed into that as the time I'm I think, but
Speaker 3: because I do think it is like if they didn't
Speaker 3: they have to fight each other, like, it's also besogae
Speaker 3: if they if they don't let her fight, like that's ridiculous.
Speaker 3: It was just the way there was just like a
Speaker 3: few choices that just felt yeah, I mean not even
Speaker 3: necessarily unrealistic if you're fighting somewhat, but like, I just
Speaker 3: didn't like it. I didn't like it fair, I don't
Speaker 3: like this spuffee. Let's see what else I will say.
Speaker 1: The one other thing that I appreciate on this watch,
Speaker 1: although it's perhaps open to interpretation, but I thought it
Speaker 1: was interesting that of the two of them, the man
Speaker 1: seems to be the more sentimental one, or at least
Speaker 1: someone who's more willing to express his feelings. Because there
Speaker 1: are different scenes, such as when they're doing the tango
Speaker 1: in the restaurant or when they're on the phone with
Speaker 1: each other as they're both driving back home. He's sort
Speaker 1: of like probing to see if she does have feelings
Speaker 1: for him, and he's being a bit more open about
Speaker 1: how he does have feelings for her, and he says
Speaker 1: something like I thought you looked like Christmas morning, right,
Speaker 1: And she's like, no, it was only ever just work.
Speaker 1: And so she's like kind of the cold, calculated one,
Speaker 1: and he's the one more willing to be warm and
Speaker 1: like try to coax emotion out of her, which is
Speaker 1: something you don't often see in totally hetero relationships, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's obviously because of social conditioning, where men are
Speaker 1: conditioned to be the more kind of closed off ones
Speaker 1: emotionally generally speaking men are not taught how to regulate
Speaker 1: or express their emotions very well. So I thought that
Speaker 1: that was an interesting subversion at the very least.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, And then now I'm gonna be hate again.
Speaker 3: And I was surprised that, you know, she like she
Speaker 3: and Carrie Washington very frankly of like Carrie Washington's character
Speaker 3: is like, well, you don't love him, so that's great,
Speaker 3: and She's like, I know, I don't.
Speaker 1: But then she like kind of like has a moment
Speaker 1: to herself where she's like, but do I love him?
Speaker 3: Right, which is like, I guess this goes back to
Speaker 3: the fact that a character was not necessarily written for
Speaker 3: Miss Jane Smith as being a core issue because outside
Speaker 3: of them both being hot and obviously they have chemistry,
Speaker 3: they like got together because of this movie. But if
Speaker 3: you're just reading they like, I don't understand what she
Speaker 3: gained by staying with him. I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 3: we think this about couples all the time. I just like,
Speaker 3: he's such a fucking asshole. She's better at what they're
Speaker 3: doing than he is. And I understand that logistically, like
Speaker 3: now it's them versus the world, but it almost felt
Speaker 3: like a prison sentence for her where it's like good
Speaker 3: that she wanted to stay with him, because it didn't
Speaker 3: seem like the movie gave her room to leave him
Speaker 3: really because of what their circumstances, and I just it
Speaker 3: was weird, and also just the obsession that this movie
Speaker 3: had with how much the amount of time that he
Speaker 3: brought up how much they were or weren't fucking was incessant.
Speaker 3: And then like literally the last line in the movie
Speaker 3: is like, everything's great now because we fuck every day,
Speaker 3: You're like great. I don't know. I just think if
Speaker 3: it was in a different movie, I would be like whoo,
Speaker 3: But this one just didn't hit for me. I did
Speaker 3: like when Adam Brody wore the Fight Club T shirt
Speaker 3: that was.
Speaker 1: Finn I mean, haha, funny joke, get it. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: have a few more things to say about the characters themselves,
Speaker 1: and then we can sure move on. There were a
Speaker 1: few other things that I didn't like and just felt
Speaker 1: like it was leaning into gendered stereotypes and yeah stuff
Speaker 1: you brought up him slut shaming her towards the end
Speaker 1: because they're having a conversation where they're both saying a
Speaker 1: number of people it's not clear, and I think this
Speaker 1: is the joke. It's not clear if it's the number
Speaker 1: of people they've had sex with or it's the number
Speaker 1: of people they've killed. I think you can interpret it
Speaker 1: either way, and like the uncertainty is the joke in
Speaker 1: this situation. But either way, you can interpret it as
Speaker 1: she's fucked three hundred and seventeen people or whatever, and
Speaker 1: he's threatened by that because it's a lot more than
Speaker 1: he has, and he's then making slut shamey comments about
Speaker 1: her ear things that can be interpreted as slut shamey comments,
Speaker 1: and and this is just not a funny joke. Conversely,
Speaker 1: there's a scene where he as they're sort of divulging
Speaker 1: new information to each other that they've kept from each
Speaker 1: other all these years. He says something like I was
Speaker 1: made before, and she gets very pissed.
Speaker 3: Right, because that's what's supposed to matter to her, and
Speaker 3: sextual partners is what's supposed to have matter to him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, her being jealous of another woman and another romantic
Speaker 1: relationship he's had in the past, and she gets so
Speaker 1: mad about it, and it just felt like a very tropy,
Speaker 1: like pitting women against each other kind of thing. That
Speaker 1: men do in their writing. There's that there's similar to
Speaker 1: the he's obsessed with hating her cooking. There's another like
Speaker 1: runner about curtains, where she's like, look, I got new curtains,
Speaker 1: and he's.
Speaker 3: Also which to me, says I wrote that that like
Speaker 3: Simon Kinberg has never done a chore, because it's like
Speaker 3: also like he doesn't even know how to write about,
Speaker 3: like if you were a homemaker, what would be important?
Speaker 3: He's just like a.
Speaker 1: Curtain Like what do women do curtains?
Speaker 3: Right, Like being a homemaker is and doing domestic work
Speaker 3: in general is a very legitimate way to spend one's life.
Speaker 3: But the job isn't curtain like. It's just so brain
Speaker 3: was not on when writing any of the missus parts.
Speaker 1: Down, certainly not. Also the trope of like her guns
Speaker 1: are in the kitchen because women spend time in the kitchen,
Speaker 1: and his guns are in a garage because men like
Speaker 1: cars and they go into the garage.
Speaker 3: And I think it's just like so much of like
Speaker 3: their relationship is predicated on the fact that it is
Speaker 3: safe to assume that every married couple hates each other,
Speaker 3: which obviously isn't to say that like all marriages should
Speaker 3: be presented as happy and easy.
Speaker 1: Because that's not realistic either.
Speaker 3: Yeah, most people get divorced. But like just that, I
Speaker 3: find it so depressing just to be like, they've been
Speaker 3: married for five years and they're that miserable, they should
Speaker 3: get divorced. Like if I was married to Simon Kinberg,
Speaker 3: I'd be like, are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, fucking
Speaker 3: kidding me?
Speaker 1: Do then hate me? Yeah? I guess I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: The I suppose moral of the story is if you
Speaker 1: are open and honest with your romantic partner, it will
Speaker 1: lead to a healthier relationship.
Speaker 3: That's true. That is true. And I think, even in
Speaker 3: spite of the Kinberg comment that like, the movie is
Speaker 3: not against couples counseling, and that it seems like it
Speaker 3: actually amongst other things, like, yeah, the more honest they
Speaker 3: were with each other, the more deeply they fell in love.
Speaker 3: And that's a nice precedent. It's all over the place.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, I mean, speaking about the guns again, there's
Speaker 1: a part where after they've decided to like team up
Speaker 1: and collaborate and their allies, John hands Jane a gun
Speaker 1: and she's like, why do I get the girl gun?
Speaker 1: And then he like hands her a different gun, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure in two thousand and five they thought that
Speaker 1: was like feminism or something lazy. Yeah, yeah, I didn't
Speaker 1: really know what to make of that. But yeah, the
Speaker 1: movie's full of different moments where you're just like, I
Speaker 1: think they're trying something, or I think they're trying to
Speaker 1: comment on something or challenge a trope. But for the
Speaker 1: most part, it's just leaning into pretty gendered tropes over all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Ultimately, if you're looking for a commentary, she's just
Speaker 3: not the movie to watch. I wanted to say, because
Speaker 3: I felt like I was losing my mind because she
Speaker 3: was then not credited and I didn't have the Wikipedia
Speaker 3: page in front of me. I just watched the movie
Speaker 3: straight through. Well, Bassett is in fact the voice of
Speaker 3: mister Smith's boss, because I was like, oh, so weird.
Speaker 3: It sounds like Angela Bassett, and it is because I
Speaker 3: think you just hear her on the phone, right and
Speaker 3: you're just like, whoa, And then who knows. I'm assuming
Speaker 3: that she knew the director or something. But there's that.
Speaker 3: In terms of the other characters in this movie, we
Speaker 3: don't really have much to talk about, I mean, other
Speaker 3: than the respective best friend characters, which, as we were
Speaker 3: hinting at earlier on, Vince Vaughn's character is just obnoxious.
Speaker 3: Every word that comes out of his mouth is misogynist.
Speaker 3: We've talked about characters like this in the past. He
Speaker 3: fucking sucks, and like you were saying earlier, Caitlin, like him,
Speaker 3: sucking is his personality. But he has a personality which
Speaker 3: we cannot say a Kerry Washington's character, Jasmine, who is
Speaker 3: playing a very stock best friend character and I think
Speaker 3: like also very much plays into the black best friend
Speaker 3: trope where we know nothing about her other than she
Speaker 3: is Jane Smith's friend and co worker and is there
Speaker 3: to ask her questions and to ask her like plot
Speaker 3: questions that set up Jane's also poorly written emotional arc. Yeah, so,
Speaker 3: like you said earlier, like Kerry Washington, obviously, I mean
Speaker 3: not only deserves better, but like Angelina, Julie very much
Speaker 3: proven that she's way too good for this movie. Other
Speaker 3: than that, I mean, this movie really does sort of
Speaker 3: stay locked on mister and missus Smith. I don't really
Speaker 3: know if I have much to say about any other
Speaker 3: characters besides them, and they're best friends.
Speaker 1: Vince Vaughn gets more screen time than Carrie Washington does,
Speaker 1: which is also telling easily. I think Adam Brody also
Speaker 1: gets more screen time than Carrie Washington. I do like
Speaker 1: the idea of an old lady assassin agency, but we
Speaker 1: don't really know anything about it or what the deal
Speaker 1: is there.
Speaker 3: So a strong idea to introduce. Yeah, that was the
Speaker 3: kind of thing. My note there was like I really
Speaker 3: love that, and I wish there was more of it.
Speaker 3: But also it's not like I want to know what
Speaker 3: this creative team things happens there, and all women's Assassin
Speaker 3: Squad would look like you know, there's better movies about it,
Speaker 3: and some of them written by other misogynists. I'm thinking
Speaker 3: about kill Bill, great movie about I guess majority women's
Speaker 3: the Deadly Viper. Yeah, assassination Squad.
Speaker 1: Four of the five of them are women.
Speaker 3: Should we talk about the brandolina of it all?
Speaker 1: Let's do it. I think you probably have more research
Speaker 1: on this than I do. I just mostly remember like
Speaker 1: the anecdotal stuff as it was happening in real time.
Speaker 3: Actually, I wanted to start with that before getting into
Speaker 3: the specifics. This is a sort of a detour into
Speaker 3: a tiny you're wrong about episode I wanted to know
Speaker 3: what your recollection was of that media cycle before I
Speaker 3: talked about it.
Speaker 1: Here's my recollection. I don't know how reliable this information is.
Speaker 3: It's your recollection. So that's the thing. I feel like,
Speaker 3: probably it's wrong, and that's interesting.
Speaker 1: So I remember Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston being this
Speaker 1: power couple that everyone was obsessed with and oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: they're gonna make it and everyone loves them as a
Speaker 1: celebrity couple. And then Angelina and Jolie enters the picture
Speaker 1: by way of this movie, because this set is where
Speaker 1: Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie met, and I remember the
Speaker 1: kind of media attention around this being that, oh, Angelina
Speaker 1: Jolie is a home wrecker and she broke up this
Speaker 1: amazing couple. I also remember something to the effect of
Speaker 1: the reason that Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston cited as
Speaker 1: splitting up had something to do with the fact that
Speaker 1: she didn't want to have children and he did, so
Speaker 1: I vaguely remember something about that being part of the
Speaker 1: reason that they split up, but everyone was like, well,
Speaker 1: it's obviously actually because he fell in love with Angelina
Speaker 1: and Jolly instead yeah, I just remember that part of
Speaker 1: it and Angelina and Jolie getting a lot of guff
Speaker 1: for being a home wrecker. I didn't feel really one
Speaker 1: way about it or the other because I've never been
Speaker 1: a celebrity gossip person. I just like let it wash
Speaker 1: over me and I don't pay attention and like, honestly,
Speaker 1: until the news broke pretty recently, was it in the
Speaker 1: past year that Brad Pitt was outed as an abuser?
Speaker 1: The past year or two, I think.
Speaker 3: In a major way. Yeah, in the celebrity gossip world
Speaker 3: it was, which is a part of this story. And again,
Speaker 3: like I'll say, for anyone listening for a comprehensive version
Speaker 3: of this story, this is not the place. But I
Speaker 3: think it became more commonly reported in the last couple
Speaker 3: of years, but the story has been out there for
Speaker 3: a long time. I believe that the assault.
Speaker 1: That is think twenty sixteen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the like as long as this show has
Speaker 3: been like eight years ago, essentially, like I mean, and
Speaker 3: who knows what a marriage ending, but that was sort
Speaker 3: of the final straw. And when I think it's presented
Speaker 3: that Angelina Jolie was like, this is not safe for
Speaker 3: me or the kids, and we've got to get the
Speaker 3: fuck out of here, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So my point is I didn't know about that story
Speaker 1: when it happened in twenty sixteen. I didn't either, and
Speaker 1: until it was like sort of re reported post me two,
Speaker 1: I thought they were still married. Like, I didn't even
Speaker 1: know they got divorced. Like that's the level at which
Speaker 1: I'm paying attention to celebrity gossip, so it's almost none.
Speaker 1: I rarely care about it like that, It's just not
Speaker 1: my thing.
Speaker 3: Well, that's why I was curious, like what your memory
Speaker 3: of the time was, because it was like, whether you
Speaker 3: were interested in the story or not, you couldn't avoid it, really, Okay,
Speaker 3: So yes, the truth thing is that these two met
Speaker 3: on the set of this movie, began having an affair
Speaker 3: while brad Pitt was still married to Jennifer Aniston, and
Speaker 3: that he then left Jennifer Aniston and in quick order
Speaker 3: was with Angelae Jullie. They didn't get married for years,
Speaker 3: but there was also and I won't get too deep
Speaker 3: into this, but there was pretty soon after they were
Speaker 3: together they started having children and adopting children, and ultimately
Speaker 3: I think that they have five or six children together,
Speaker 3: either biological or adopted, and from what I have gathered,
Speaker 3: none of these children want anything to do with brad Pitt,
Speaker 3: and that's just the truth anyways, But just trying to
Speaker 3: keep stuff in order. At the time, I feel like
Speaker 3: you sort of got this very classic Madonna horror tabloid
Speaker 3: story with Jennifer Aniston and Angelina Joe Lee. The two
Speaker 3: essays that I'm pulling from here. The first was published
Speaker 3: last year in Vox by Constance Grady. Brad Pitt was
Speaker 3: the only winner of the Aniston Jolie tabloid battle. The
Speaker 3: other is an older piece by a writer I really
Speaker 3: really like, Anne Helen Peterson in BuzzFeed. Amember that from
Speaker 3: twenty fourteenth's almost ten years ago, and that piece is
Speaker 3: more of a deep dive on how Angelina Joe Lee
Speaker 3: essentially had to like pr maneuver her way out of
Speaker 3: this fucking nightmare yea, and eventually, at least at the
Speaker 3: time it was published, seemed to have successfully done. So
Speaker 3: both are really good pieces. I'd recommend checking both out,
Speaker 3: particularly the more recent one. But essentially, I mean, and
Speaker 3: I remember this even though I was eleven and should
Speaker 3: not have known any of this, even though I wasn't
Speaker 3: interested in it. Just you couldn't go to a grocery
Speaker 3: store without being confronted with this story.
Speaker 1: The cover of every magazine.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, I feel like the story evolved
Speaker 3: over time, and it started as you know, Angelina Jolie
Speaker 3: is a man stealer, Jennifer Aniston is the sweet girl
Speaker 3: next door. Angelina Jolie is this like vampy man stealer,
Speaker 3: home wrecker essentially, which media of the time really played
Speaker 3: into ways that she had either presented herself or been
Speaker 3: framed in the past of like, you know, early Angelina
Speaker 3: jo Lee kissed her brother and like wore Billy Bob
Speaker 3: Thornton's blood around her neck, and like she was a
Speaker 3: weird lady like and I think that anything she did
Speaker 3: in her twenties, and she also had I don't know
Speaker 3: a ton about her early life except that she is
Speaker 3: the daughter of John Voight, who's famously a piece of
Speaker 3: fucking garbage, and like, I believe they don't have a
Speaker 3: relationship anyways. Sounds like a difficult upbringing, a kind of
Speaker 3: like tumultuous twenties that she had, but also very successful.
Speaker 3: She wanted to oscar for girl interrupted. But either way,
Speaker 3: they're like okay, Jennifer Anison good, Angelina Jolee bad. However,
Speaker 3: as time went on, that narrative didn't flip, but it
Speaker 3: did change where once Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt had
Speaker 3: a family and Angelina Joe which had already begun. And
Speaker 3: I want to be careful not to like position any
Speaker 3: humanitarian work that she's done as disingenuous, Like I don't
Speaker 3: think that that is true. We don't need to get
Speaker 3: into the weeds of like, well, what is it, you
Speaker 3: know whatever. I do believe that the convictions that she's presented,
Speaker 3: it's been at least on a long enough timeline that
Speaker 3: whether you agree with the particulars or not, it seems
Speaker 3: to be a big part of her life. But as
Speaker 3: that became a bigger part of her life, and she
Speaker 3: sort of was presented as less of a home wrecking
Speaker 3: vamp and more of a mother of five who did
Speaker 3: all of this work, you see the narrative flip. And
Speaker 3: like all, Angelina Julie is not bad anymore. The more
Speaker 3: she leans into motherhood, or the more the media leads
Speaker 3: into the image of motherhood, she's presented better and better.
Speaker 3: And meanwhile, Jennifer Aniston does not end up having children,
Speaker 3: and she's presented as pathetic on a longer timeline. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you're totally right that at the time, it was presented
Speaker 3: that Jennifer Anison didn't want children and Brady Pitt did
Speaker 3: so he found a woman who can give him children.
Speaker 3: It turns out that this is also not true. She
Speaker 3: had fertility issues and had them. I mean, I don't
Speaker 3: cannot speak to the timeline that she but it wasn't
Speaker 3: until like twenty nineteen where she gave an interview that
Speaker 3: was like, there was this popular narrative about me that
Speaker 3: like I didn't want to comment on because it's just
Speaker 3: like fucked up and weird, because whether you want children
Speaker 3: or not is a very personal decision and has nothing
Speaker 3: to do with anything. And also it shouldn't have been
Speaker 3: criticized if she didn't want children, but as it turns out,
Speaker 3: she did, and it was also just this like big
Speaker 3: traumatic lie. So it's, you know, one of the more
Speaker 3: I think famous and fucked up media narratives. Because of
Speaker 3: course in all of these, Brad Pitt is never presented
Speaker 3: as bad. It's he was tempted or he was not
Speaker 3: given the babies that he wanted, so who could blame him,
Speaker 3: which is a lot of what the vox essay is
Speaker 3: about of just like it was never even floated or
Speaker 3: presented that he could be at fault for anything. It
Speaker 3: has to be the fault of one woman or the other.
Speaker 3: And there were t shirts sold and all this shit.
Speaker 3: So I think, you know, Angelina and Jolie and Jennifery
Speaker 3: Addison's career, you have to imagine mental health are affected
Speaker 3: by that. And then on a longer timeline, Brad Pitt
Speaker 3: and Angelina and Jolie have a family together. They get
Speaker 3: married at some point, and he was an abusive alcoholic
Speaker 3: person to her, and without getting into I think we
Speaker 3: have referenced it on the show before and other Brad
Speaker 3: Pitt vehicles. I don't remember which episode off the top
Speaker 3: of my head, but essentially, he assaulted his wife and
Speaker 3: berated one of his children in front of the whole
Speaker 3: family on a plane in twenty sixteen, which resulted in
Speaker 3: an investigation. It resulted in police reports, and ultimately it
Speaker 3: was at least a contributing factor to their eventual divorce.
Speaker 3: What that looks like now, It was actually in the
Speaker 3: news as recently as four days before. We're recording this.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of the reason even though post
Speaker 3: me to, and I can't say exactly when I remember
Speaker 3: first hearing this story for the first time, but post
Speaker 3: me to this story was brought up again because I
Speaker 3: think that it was reported at the time, but no
Speaker 3: one took an.
Speaker 1: Interest culturally, we simply didn't yeah, post me to.
Speaker 3: So I guess anytime after late twenty seventeen, this story
Speaker 3: comes back, but it does keep kind of disappearing like
Speaker 3: it never stayed. It appears that the reason that is
Speaker 3: is because Brad Pitt has been repeatedly suing Angelina Jolie
Speaker 3: to get her to say less about this. Essentially, so
Speaker 3: the story I'm pulling from Angelina Jolie's lawyers call Brad
Speaker 3: Pitt's NDA request abusive in winery case, there's also this
Speaker 3: whole business like they're rich and so they had a
Speaker 3: winery business and they're in a fight with that. But
Speaker 3: basically like he's finding all of these reasons to sue her.
Speaker 3: Because I want to make sure I'm getting this correct.
Speaker 3: A quote from a Vulture article by Zoe Guy from
Speaker 3: a few days ago. Jolie's attorneys previously claimed Pitt wanted
Speaker 3: her to sign an onerous and expansive NDA that would
Speaker 3: quote cover Pit's personal misconduct, whether related to a Miraval,
Speaker 3: the winery, or not, including the abuse allegations related to
Speaker 3: an incident on a plane in twenty sixteen, in order
Speaker 3: for Jolee to agree to sell her stake in Miraval
Speaker 3: to Pit. When the deal fell apart over the matter,
Speaker 3: she sold her shares elsewhere, So essentially he's suing her
Speaker 3: for selling her shares to this winery she no longer
Speaker 3: wants anything to do with because she doesn't want to
Speaker 3: be involved in his life, and he attempted to make
Speaker 3: it impossible for her to extract herself from their co
Speaker 3: owned business unless she signed an NDA saying she could
Speaker 3: never publicly speak about him being a domestic abuser, Which
Speaker 3: how is that fucking legal? I couldn't tell you. But
Speaker 3: she just sort of was like It appears that she
Speaker 3: was sort of like fuck you and sold her shares
Speaker 3: off anyways, and now he's trying to sue her again.
Speaker 3: I think the Brad Pitt obviously has a very vested
Speaker 3: interest in his image and does not care about anybody,
Speaker 3: perhaps accept himself. Yeah, he is a bitch. I hate
Speaker 3: him in the bad way. We talked about this. I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: we talked about this our episode yesterday.
Speaker 1: I want Monsters Inc.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in Munsters Inc. Go to the Matreon.
Speaker 1: Bitch in a bad way, bitch in a bad way,
Speaker 1: or bitch is in a good way exactly.
Speaker 3: So, while there are you know, I'm sure plenty of
Speaker 3: criticisms of Angelina Julie that have nothing to do with
Speaker 3: this marriage. Brad Pitt very much the villain of this
Speaker 3: marriage and still actively the villain of this marriage. I
Speaker 3: want to just finally close by reading what their son
Speaker 3: Packs posted on Father's Day to his Instagram story. He said,
Speaker 3: Happy Father's Day to this world class asshole. You time
Speaker 3: and time again prove yourself to be a terrible and
Speaker 3: despicable person. You have no consideration or empathy towards your
Speaker 3: four youngest children, who tremble in fear when in your presence.
Speaker 3: You will never understand the damage you have done to
Speaker 3: my family because you are incapable of doing so. You
Speaker 3: have made the lives of those closest to me a
Speaker 3: constant hell. You may tell yourself in the world whatever
Speaker 3: you want, but the truth will come to light someday.
Speaker 3: So Happy Father's Day, you fucking awful human being, and
Speaker 3: so I see no reason not to go with him there. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and to believe children of abusive parents. It appears, at
Speaker 3: least at the time of this recording, it seems like
Speaker 3: Angelina Jolie has a good relationship with all of her children.
Speaker 1: They have six, By the way, I know that we
Speaker 1: were not sure if it's five or six.
Speaker 3: I was literally doing the mister and missus Smiths five.
Speaker 1: Or children, It's yeah, it's six, because.
Speaker 3: I think they had twins, And then I kept counting
Speaker 3: twins as one, which is twin discrimination. And I apologize
Speaker 3: to the twin community. But yes, it seems like Angelina,
Speaker 3: or at least their children publicly have a good relationship
Speaker 3: with her, and they also publicly fucking hate Brad Pitt.
Speaker 3: So fuck Brad Pitt. I guess is the little bow
Speaker 3: I want to put on that second.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a number of movies that he is
Speaker 1: the star of that I really like, and I don't
Speaker 1: consume those movies anymore, or at least not to the
Speaker 1: same extent that I was. But like you know, and
Speaker 1: we've talked about, I'm never gonna be someone who like
Speaker 1: separates the art from the artists. It doesn't necessarily mean
Speaker 1: that I will refuse to watch certain things. I will
Speaker 1: just be mindful of horrible people involved in the project. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it varies project a project or you know, actor or
Speaker 1: actor what you know. It's very much on a case
Speaker 1: by case basis.
Speaker 3: But and everyone's on like sort of a personal journey
Speaker 3: right with that, Like, I certainly don't think anyone who
Speaker 3: like would watch a movie with Brad Pittknitt is a
Speaker 3: bad person. I think he's just personally Yeah, I think
Speaker 3: as time goes on, I find him harder and harder
Speaker 3: to stummitch.
Speaker 1: Sure, And it's been a journey for me because like,
Speaker 1: there was a long time where he was someone I
Speaker 1: enjoyed very much watching on screen.
Speaker 3: And he's a good actor.
Speaker 1: Unfortunate he's a good actor, he is, and he's charismatic
Speaker 1: and charming the way that a lot of scary bad
Speaker 1: people are. And this was one of the harder ones
Speaker 1: for me to be like, oh, I don't fuck with
Speaker 1: him anymore. Fuck Brad Pitt.
Speaker 3: The end, this movie passes the Bechdel testing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a few scenes in Lady Assassin Headquarters
Speaker 1: Industries where but although are they ever not talking about
Speaker 1: John Smith.
Speaker 3: Let me triple check, but I think I clocked a
Speaker 3: few like barely passes. I did technically pass, I would
Speaker 3: say spiritually definitely not. So whoever's editing the Wikipedia page
Speaker 3: these days sort of go with God. I would say,
Speaker 3: yeah it technically I think may pass between Jane and Jasmine,
Speaker 3: but spiritually know because neither of them are really characters that.
Speaker 1: Were written true.
Speaker 3: So it's challenging. Actually there's oh, this is one of
Speaker 3: my favorites because there is a like old website that
Speaker 3: we consult sometimes to check our own work Bectel test Dott.
Speaker 3: And every once in a while you find a movie
Speaker 3: where there is just a rich comment section where they're like, well,
Speaker 3: sort of and then other people are like, it doesn't.
Speaker 3: So jury's kind of out on this one that like
Speaker 3: the official ruling of the website is no. There's a
Speaker 3: lot of comments you're saying technically yes, I'd say, let's
Speaker 3: just go with no.
Speaker 1: I'm fine with that because either it's Kerry Washington's character
Speaker 1: and Jane Smith talking about killing a man that's better
Speaker 1: than nothing, but they are mostly talking about John Smith,
Speaker 1: I believe, And then there might be an interaction between
Speaker 1: Jane Smith and her neighbor, Missus Coleman. They're always talking
Speaker 1: about the Colemans, and maybe something there passes. But again,
Speaker 1: that's a very fleeting moment, a fleeting character, not plot impactful.
Speaker 1: So I would say spiritually know the movie does not
Speaker 1: pass the Bechdel.
Speaker 3: Test, and possibly technically now yes, but what about the
Speaker 3: most important media metric of all, Oh, do you.
Speaker 1: Mean the Bechdel cast nipple scale, where we rate the
Speaker 1: movie zero to five nipples based on examining it through
Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens. I'll give this movie one nipple.
Speaker 1: There are some things I did appreciate more at the time,
Speaker 1: and still to some degree appreciate, which is the woman's
Speaker 1: involvement in the action. I think a lot of other
Speaker 1: movies that would have an assassin who's a woman would
Speaker 1: still not let her do much. So I appreciate that
Speaker 1: she's a far more active participant in the action than
Speaker 1: we're accustomed to seeing, especially of movies from this era.
Speaker 1: And there are a couple other slight subversions that I appreciated,
Speaker 1: like the man being the more emotionally expressive, sentimental one
Speaker 1: and not that like I'm advocating for women to be
Speaker 1: closed off emotionally, it's more that a trope is present.
Speaker 3: But it does happen and you never see it.
Speaker 1: And you don't see it, and so I appreciate the
Speaker 1: subversion of that trope. But by and large, it's a
Speaker 1: movie leaning into gendered tropes and it's not as good
Speaker 1: as I once thought. The movie was so one nipple
Speaker 1: for the few things that I appreciate, and it goes
Speaker 1: to Carrie Washington. Justice for Carrie Washington.
Speaker 3: I am going to go half a nipple because I
Speaker 3: don't really I don't have a nostalgia for it. The
Speaker 3: more I read about it, the BRANDOLINASAKA, the more just
Speaker 3: like a hostile agridge with it. It's not you know,
Speaker 3: you cannot blame the movie itself, but spiritually I do.
Speaker 3: And so I'm gonna give it a half nipple, and
Speaker 3: I'm gonna give the half nipple to.
Speaker 2: Know.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna give it to Angelina Jolie. And with that, Caitlin,
Speaker 3: Happy freaking birthday.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. If listeners want to do something
Speaker 1: nice for me on my birthday, g me. You can
Speaker 1: follow me on Instagram. I was just talking about this
Speaker 1: on the Monsters, Inc. Episode, which may have already come
Speaker 1: out or maybe it comes out very soon, but either way,
Speaker 1: on the Matreon, right on the Matreon. Either way. I
Speaker 1: am trying to do more stand up in LA and elsewhere,
Speaker 1: and it helps to get booked on shows the more
Speaker 1: followers you have. I don't necessarily like that that's the case,
Speaker 1: but it is. But we live the fact of the matter.
Speaker 1: We live in a society, So just follow me on
Speaker 1: Instagram so that I can appear to be a legitimate comedian.
Speaker 3: You are dufest wow thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that, but bookers don't. Anyway, Listeners,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening to the show. And
Speaker 1: you know, I just feel extra sentimental on my birthday
Speaker 1: and finally free Palestine.
Speaker 3: The Happy Birthday Kitlin.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Follow us also on Instagram at Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 1: There's our Patreon. Ooh, another little gift you could give
Speaker 1: me for my birthday. If you're not already a Matreon subscriber,
Speaker 1: go over to patreon dot com spetl Cast, where you
Speaker 1: can get two bonus episodes every single month, plus access
Speaker 1: to the one hundred and fifty bonus episodes on the
Speaker 1: Matreon for five dollars a mom mentioned and our tour
Speaker 1: kicks off very soon, so grab tickets to that if
Speaker 1: you don't already have it at link tree slash Spectel Cast.
Speaker 1: We're in various cities in the UK as well as Dublin.
Speaker 3: And you know what, I'm not gonna plug anything because
Speaker 3: it's your damn birthday, Happy birthday.
Speaker 1: But people should listen to your new show, your new podcast,
Speaker 1: say something about it.
Speaker 3: Wow, only because you ask in your birthday. Yeah, please
Speaker 3: check out if you haven't checked it out already, we
Speaker 3: should be a few I guess two episodes deep when
Speaker 3: this comes out. Sixteenth Minute is a new weekly show
Speaker 3: doing that comes out every Tuesday. That's a different profile
Speaker 3: every week of a different Internet character of the day.
Speaker 3: So I believe this week our episode on the dress
Speaker 3: just came out. Member, that was it the.
Speaker 1: Dress that people either saw? Was it like white and
Speaker 1: wet and gold or black and blue?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'll never forget.
Speaker 3: Never forget. Yeah. So every episode is like that, just
Speaker 3: Internet things that have been ingrained in your brain against
Speaker 3: your will. Every episode's about that, So check it out.
Speaker 3: We're having a fun time over there, and it's also
Speaker 3: produced by Bechdel Cast producer Sophie Lichterman, so very nice.
Speaker 3: Enjoy your birthday, Kaitlin, thank you so much. Enjoy your day, listeners.
Speaker 1: Yes, happy birthday to you also, and we'll be back
Speaker 1: next week for more episode Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and
Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lickterman, edited by Mola Board.
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals
Speaker 1: by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo and merch is designed by
Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus and a special thanks to Aristotle Assevedo. For
Speaker 1: more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechtelcast