1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and today 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: it's a vault episode. This is another one of our 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: older Anthology of Horror episodes. I believe this was volume six, 5 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: which originally published on October twenty nine. Wait, or is 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: it volume five? Honestly I lose track of the volumes. 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: It's another one, volume five. I don't know how many 8 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: volumes there are at this point. Yeah, maybe it's five. Okay. 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: I think we started out doing like one a year, 10 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: and then we did like two in one year. So, um, 11 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: the you know, the numbering system, it becomes less important. 12 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: As with any like horror franchise, the long grade goes, 13 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: the numbers just become redundant. Right, Welcome to Stuff to 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind? Production of My Heart Radio. Hey are 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind? My name 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: with the second installment this year of our anthology horror series. Uh, 18 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: this I guess is going to be the fifth anthology 19 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: episode overall. Yeah, I believest so this should be episode 20 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: or yeah, volume five however you want to look at it. Um, Yes, 21 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: last year. If it's a volume you have, it's a volume. Yeah. 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: So basically this is just a continuing experiment we've been 23 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: doing where we look to the wonderful world of horror 24 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: and sci fi UH TV anthologies and UH and cinematic 25 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: anthologies and pick out little episodes, little UH audio visual 26 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: short stories. They generally have some horror or sci fi 27 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: or some sort of uh in, some sort of weird 28 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: h and perhaps grotesque twist in them, and we use 29 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: that as a focal point for a discussion of science 30 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: and culture. Sometimes we're having to really um read into 31 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: the episode a lot more than the creators anticipated. Other 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: times it's just it's really baked into an already intelligent script. Um. 33 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: It just kind of varies from piece to piece. Well, 34 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: I got one to talk about first that is definitely 35 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: baked in some way. Okay, what what have you got 36 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: for us, Joe? Okay, today I wanted to start by 37 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: talking about a classic episode of Are You Afraid of 38 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: the Dark? Rob Did you watch Are You Afraid of 39 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: the Dark? Because I I did. I I can't remember 40 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: what channel came on. Maybe it was a Nickelodeon thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 41 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: I remember catching episodes of it, and I remember it 42 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: as being occasionally like really creepy, like it was effective. 43 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: It was not uh, you know, it wasn't. I mean, 44 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: it was a kid show, but it could really creepy 45 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: out a little bit. It was it was well done, 46 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: is our call. Yeah. A lot of the episodes really 47 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: are and I would say even the bad episodes, going 48 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: back and watching them as an adult, it is an 49 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: extremely fun, nostalgic rewatch. Uh. A lot of the episodes 50 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: that I found very scary when I was young. You know, 51 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: it is a kid's show, so they don't quite have 52 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: the punch they did when I when I was eight 53 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: or whatever, but a few of them are are still 54 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: kind of surprising. And one of my favorite things about 55 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: the show is that it is just egregiously adorably Canadian. 56 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: One of the fun things about going back and watching 57 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: it now is that you frequently encounter child versions of 58 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: Ryan Gosling or Nev Campbell or somebody else you recognize 59 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: from later work. And when it comes to the older actors, 60 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: they weren't usually people who you'd recognize from big movies 61 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: or anything, but a lot of them have this powerful 62 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: energy of like a local character beloved in some town. 63 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: Like you often get the sense that when you meet 64 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: Dr Vink or somebody like that, it's like you're you're 65 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: looking at the rc Bates of Toronto. Yeah. I think 66 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: the episode I mostly remember from this show is, if 67 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: I if I'm remembering it correctly, is the Tale of 68 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: the dead Man's Float, which has to do with like 69 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: a haunted high school swimming pool that remember, I'm I 70 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: don't know if I'm remembering correctly. I may be misremembering 71 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: that it's somehow in the in the basement of the school, 72 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: but maybe not. Yeah, there's a swimming pool in the 73 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: It's like a cursed swimming pool that was on a 74 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: cemetery or something. Yeah. And I think this is the 75 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: one where, like when I when It Follows came out, 76 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: there's a sequence in it it follows swimming pool and 77 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: it it made me think back to this episode. You 78 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: are a thousand percent correct. I I think I made 79 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: that connection at a subconscious level. But the moment you 80 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: said that, you're you're totally right. But the episode I 81 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: want to talk about today is one I don't remember 82 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: actually which season it's from. I should have looked that up. 83 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: But anyway, it's called The Tale of the Super Specs, 84 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: and it's notable for being, I think one of the 85 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: episodes with some legitimately scary imagery which is achieved via 86 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: very low tech means. It's just it has some very 87 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: creepy images of people draped in black cloth. But it also, 88 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: I think, is the episode that introduces the fan favorite 89 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: recurring character Mr. Sardo, who is a en uh sort 90 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: of scheming magic and novelty shop owner who gets angry 91 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: when people call him Mr sar Do and he always 92 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: says his catchphrase that's sar dough, no Mr accent on 93 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: the dough. That seems that seems very particular, like he's 94 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: not an added to calling him sar Do. Right, it's 95 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: more than that. Yeah, he's been he's been a little 96 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: fussy about this point, I think. I mean, you invite 97 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: these problems when you decide to be a single name guy. Yeah, 98 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: but okay, So the premise of this episode is that 99 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: there's a young man named Weeds who is kind of 100 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: a prankster, and he's browsing in Sardo's magic and Novelty shop. 101 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: That's the kind of place that's got masked and fake vomit, 102 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: but it's also got apparently legitimate spell books and referenced 103 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: homes on the occult, and real magical artifacts and objects. 104 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure why they're all crammed together in this 105 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: one shop, but so he's sort of looking around for things, 106 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: and he comes across a bag of magic dust, which 107 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: while simultaneously reading a spell out of an ancient tome, 108 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: he accidentally spills this magic dust over some plastic glasses 109 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: that are being sold as super Specs, which are supposed 110 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: to grant X ray vision. I think I think the 111 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: original understanding is these are just novelty glasses, but they 112 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: get imbued with magic power when he says the spell. 113 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: Also there in the magic shop is Weeds, his girlfriend 114 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: Mary Beth, and she decides to try out the super specs, 115 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: but when she does, she sees shadowy figures who are 116 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: draped in in black cloth from head to toe, and 117 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: they're following her everywhere. And there are multiple occasions, you know, 118 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: like they go to school and she puts on the 119 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: glasses again and she sees the figures, and then she 120 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: goes home and she puts on the glasses again and 121 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: sees them another time. She also sees um elements of 122 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: alternative reality, so like she'll look at her fireplace and 123 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: without the glasses there's no fire and it, but with 124 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: the glasses there's there's a fire burning, so it's very 125 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: they live in a way. Now. Eventually, what happens is 126 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: that Weeds and Marybeth get convinced that there are invisible 127 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: people from another dimension who are stalking them, and they 128 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: consult with Sard to try to figure out how to 129 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: get rid of these shadow people. And I won't spoil 130 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: the ending to this one, because I gotta admit the 131 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: ending is pretty good, But the basic premise is what 132 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about. It's the premise that there 133 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: is a realm of life that actually occupies the same 134 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: general space as us, but that we go about our 135 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: lives completely unaware of. And it's it's a take on 136 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: the idea popular in some like alien conspiracy theory architecture, 137 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: that aliens are somehow already here. They're here on Earth, 138 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: but they're invisible to us for some reason, or they're 139 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: hiding in plain sight. Yeah. I think I think I 140 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: recorded an older episode of the show with um Ben 141 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: Belling and that Frederick uh guesting where we talked about 142 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: shadow people and uh particular study that linked some of 143 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: this phenomenon too disruptions of the body schema. So so 144 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: basically like like a situation where um, you know, neurologically 145 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: your idea of where your body is and what your 146 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: body is doing would be skewed in a way that 147 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: it would be perceived as some sort of a shadow 148 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: being that was close by. Oh, I see. Not to 149 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: say that's a definitive answer for for all of this, 150 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: but it was. It was one idea that was put 151 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: forth by some researchers. Well, I mean, I think we 152 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: can be pretty safe in assuming that they are not 153 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: actually like people sized organisms that are walking around unnoticed 154 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: on Earth and our aliens of some guy. I mean, 155 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: I guess you can't rule it out, but I'm not 156 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: aware of any kind of evidence that something like that 157 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: is possible. But I wanted to explore a maybe more plausible, 158 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: still unproven, but more plausible and very interesting sort of 159 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: parallel idea. And the place I want to start here 160 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: is I was reading the British astronaut and chemist Helen Sharman. 161 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: It was actually the first British astronaut. Ever, uh, she 162 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: was talking to the observer I think earlier this year 163 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: and saying that, you know, it was her opinion, and 164 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: that just given the size of the universe, the number 165 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: of planets out there, the number of opportunities for biochemistry 166 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: to arise, that she's pretty convinced that there must be 167 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: aliens out there somewhere in the universe. And then she adds, quote, 168 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: will they be like you and me, made up of 169 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: carbon and nitrogen? Maybe not. It's possible they're here right 170 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,719 Speaker 1: now and we simply can't see them now. I want 171 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: to be clear that I'm not aware of any evidence 172 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: whatsoever this is actually the case, and I don't think 173 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: Sharman was suggesting that we have evidence of this being true. 174 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: But it does raise the very intriguing question of how 175 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: would we know if aliens, in some sense or some 176 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: kind of alternate organism, we're already here, already somehow within 177 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: range of our senses. Well, first, is there any conceivable 178 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: way that something like that could be true? And second, 179 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: if it were true, would there be any way to 180 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: sort of put on the superspects, any way to figure 181 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: it out? So further investigate this idea. I was reading 182 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: a great article from Astrobiology magazine from two thousand six. 183 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: So this is a little bit older, and some of 184 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: the science, the underlying science, might have changed somewhat since then, 185 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: but I think the basic question still stands as posed. 186 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: And this is by the UC Boulder philosophy professor Carol Cleland, 187 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: and the article is called a shadow biosphere. Now, by 188 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: a shadow biosphere she means a rarely considered form of 189 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: alternative life, not aliens from another planet, but aliens from Earth, 190 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: an unrecognized alternative biology that may exist parallel to us, 191 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: invisibly here on this planet. And she asked the question, 192 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: if something like that existed, what would these alternative biologies 193 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: entail in order to have escaped our notice? So they 194 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: could possibly include alternative forms of information coding, so forms 195 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: other than DNA or RNA, or they could include different 196 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: amino acids to build their pro teens, or quote any 197 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: other means by which the chemistry of early Earth could 198 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: have combined to form life we are not familiar with. 199 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: And so there are there are a few things we 200 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: can probably rule out from you know, any reasonable question, 201 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: The first of which is the superspect you know, the 202 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: literal superspect scenario where there are like human sized organisms 203 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: that are going unnoticed. She says, probably if these shadow 204 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: biological organisms were on the scale of familiar plants or animals, 205 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: we would have already noticed and detected them, right, Yes, 206 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: we would. Somebody would have figured it out by now. 207 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: So what we're probably talking about, if there were such 208 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: a thing, would be microscopic organisms. But microscopic organisms can 209 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: have big impacts. They do a lot, and so the 210 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: impact of a microscopic shadow biosphere could be enormous, and 211 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: it would be very interesting to discover that it had 212 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 1: gone unnoticed this long. You know, I can't help but 213 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: be reminded of a a great great end quotation marks 214 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: here uh Saturday Night Live parody commercial from I guess 215 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: back in the nineties. But for the fecal vision glasses. 216 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: Did you ever see this one? No? I didn't. Where 217 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: everybody puts on the fecal vision glasses and then like 218 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: fecal matter glows bright green, and of course they just 219 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: they just show a ridiculous amount of it, Like the 220 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: entire room is basically covered in it, there's a baby 221 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: covered in it, that sort of thing. Um, But in 222 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: a way, you know, seeing the unseen um world of 223 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: life forms around us. I think that's an excellent point 224 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: in comparison. Keep keep that, keep that image in mind 225 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: as we move on. So one of the first things, 226 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: of course, you'd have to consider if you're addressing this 227 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: question of could there could there in fact be a 228 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: shadow biosphere is um? What counts is life? You want 229 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: to make sure you're defining your terms properly, because you're 230 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: if your definition of life is overly inclusive, it could 231 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: lose all meaning. Right, you don't want to end up 232 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: with the definition of life that includes like volcanoes and 233 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: waterfalls as life. But obviously there are lots of different 234 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: definitions of life that are in competition with each other. 235 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: I was reading an article by an astrobiologist named Samantha Rolf, 236 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: and she points out there are probably more than a 237 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: hundred legit definitions of what constitutes a life form. Most 238 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: of them encounter some potential objections here or they're just 239 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: As one example, she points out that that if you 240 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: zero in on the definition of life that centered on 241 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: the ability to reproduce, you arrive at a strange conclusion 242 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 1: that like a three D printer that can print and 243 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: a symbol copies of itself is alive, but a mule 244 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: which is sterile is not alive, and that doesn't quite 245 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: seem right. Yeah. I think we've discussed in the show 246 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: before some arguments about viruses, but also about fire that 247 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: agrees to which fire can be classified up to a 248 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: point as a as an organism. It's not an organism, 249 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: but but you can make an impassioned argument of your 250 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: feeling argumentative about it totally, or like forms of crystals, 251 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: things like that. I mean, you run into a lot 252 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: of difficulty is actually if you're trying to come up 253 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: with the definition of life that rules in everything we 254 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: want to think of his life and rules out everything 255 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: we don't. So in this two thousand six article, Carol 256 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: Cleveland zeros in on the following distinctions. What what she 257 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: thinks is important is, first quote, the capacity of a 258 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: system to maintain itself as a self organized unit against 259 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: both internal and external perturbations. So basically that means a 260 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: life form has has some type of structural resiliency, It 261 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: sort of protects its own integrity and has some form 262 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: of resistance against just dissolution by external and internal forces. 263 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: And then the second thing she says, is the ability 264 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: to reproduce and transmit to its descendants adaptive heritable modifications. Now, 265 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: all the life that we know of on Earth, uh 266 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: that meets those two criteria is defined by a common chemistry. 267 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: We know what the primary types of molecules involved are, 268 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: and those molecules are proteins and nucleic gas. Sid's Nucleic acids, 269 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: of course, would include DNA and RNA, and they store 270 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: hereditary information and they produce proteins. Proteins then make up 271 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: the structure and the machinery of cells and of the 272 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: life form as a whole. And the interface between these 273 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: two functions the hereditary function and the structural or mechanical 274 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: function of the of the protein. This is handled by 275 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: a very important structure known as the ribosome, which is 276 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: made of both proteins and RNA, and which translate the 277 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: hereditary information stored in nucleic acids into usable proteins. This 278 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: is how all the life we know of on Earth works, 279 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: and yet Cleveland says, we just don't know how different 280 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: life could be. Maybe that's the only chemistry in the 281 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: universe capable of producing the functions we usually attribute to life, 282 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: and maybe not she writes, quote Moreover, we can't rule 283 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: out the possibility that the most important characteristics of life 284 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: have yet to be discovered. The functions traditionally attributed to 285 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: life maybe little more than symptoms of more fundamental but 286 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: as yet unknown properties. So, for example, at the time 287 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: she was writing this, all life on Earth built its 288 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: proteins out of the same twenty amino acids, which which 289 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: all of these amino acids in life forms share the 290 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: same chirality. Chirality is something we talked about, I think 291 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: actually in a previous Horror Anthology episode when we were 292 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: talking about to serve Man. Oh, yes, yes we did. 293 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: That was a really fun one about like how would 294 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: you the dangers of constructing, say, food for an alien 295 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: being exactly, and and the idea that aliens would want 296 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: to eat us. We might be poisonous to them if 297 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: their molecular biology is somewhat different than ours. But just 298 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: as a brief refresher, chirality or the handedness of molecules, 299 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: refers to like which way they're oriented in terms of 300 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: like a mirror image of each other. And Earth life 301 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: uses left handed molecules, but it maybe could use right 302 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: handed molecules. A biotic processes, like processes not associated with life, 303 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: are known to create all kinds of amino acids that 304 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: are not found in life forms. Cleveland references more than 305 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: a hundred known amino acids that are created by a 306 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: biotic processes. So why does life as we know it 307 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: not employ more of these amino acids or different chirality 308 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: of amino acids. Lab experiments show that you can build 309 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: proteins out of alternative amino acids and molecules with right 310 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: handed chirality. Likewise, with the exception of RNA viruses, all 311 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: life on Earth stores its genetic information in DNA, but 312 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: it's possible DNA could use different combinations of bases and 313 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: amino acids. So she's sort of asking the question in general, 314 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: why all these particulars, Why why all these particularities of 315 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: of Earth life that, as far as we can tell, 316 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: are totally contingent. And Cleveland thinks that the best explanation is, well, 317 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: this is just how it happened in the conditions of 318 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: the young Earth when life first arose, and these contingencies 319 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: of molecular biology have been recopied down the ages since then. 320 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: Ever since, these life forms have been reproducing quote. So 321 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: it is unlikely that the ribosomes found in the cells 322 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: of familiar life represent the only possibility for translating hereditary 323 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: information stored on nucleic acids into proteins, let alone, the 324 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 1: original mechanism utilized by the first protocells. Had circumstances on 325 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: the early Earth been different, familiar life would also have 326 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: been different. But this raises a really interesting question if 327 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: these features of molecular biology as we know it are 328 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: really just contingencies. In other words, if it's just chemically 329 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: how things happen to shake out when the first life 330 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: forms were coming together, how do we know that other 331 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: life forms, other forms of molecular biology did not arise 332 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: at different times in places on Earth in the history 333 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: of Earth, with their own contingent chemical quirks, making them 334 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: hard for us to recognize with tools that are honed 335 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: in the search for familiar forms of life, I mean, 336 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: in a way, what you can discover is sort of 337 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: determined or bounded by what kind of tools you use 338 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: and what you expect to be looking for. Yeah, I 339 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: mean it reminds me a bit of recent discussions we've 340 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: had about um, how you would just how you would 341 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: describe a sense that you have to a being that 342 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 1: is lacking that sense, you know, like it's it's it's 343 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: hard to to to to explain that, and like that 344 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: works in reverse, like looking for the thing that you 345 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: can't experience. Now, from here, Cleveland goes on to address 346 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: some objections that are usually raised to the idea that 347 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: there could be alternative forms of molecular biology on Earth. So, 348 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: first of all, there is the claim that quote, any 349 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: variations in the earliest forms of life would have been 350 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: combined by lateral gene transfer into a single form of life. Right, 351 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: so that we've talked about horizontal gene transfer on the 352 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: show before, and the idea is that, you know, there 353 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: just would have been like sort of a cross fertilization 354 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: of genes that way, and they kind of would have 355 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: been absorbed into the dominant biosphere. But she argues against 356 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: this by saying, you know, we can't assume compatibility and 357 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: opportunity for lateral gene transfer between our ancestral microbes, the 358 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: microbes that became us, and whatever these alternative critters are. 359 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 1: There could be chemical and compatibility, there could be geographic 360 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: isolation and so forth. And then there is a second argument, 361 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: which is that well, our single celled ancestors would have 362 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: wiped out these alternative biological organisms in the competition for resources, 363 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: and she argues against this by saying, well, rare microbes 364 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: that we know of tend to occupy unique ecological niches, 365 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,959 Speaker 1: so they're not necessarily in deadly competition for the same resources. 366 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: They might just kind of have different needs, have established 367 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: different niches, and they're just riding it out as as 368 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: sort of rare, unique and isolated communities of organisms, or 369 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: even within communities of of conventional organisms. And then finally 370 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: she talks about the argument that if these things are 371 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: still here, we should have found evidence of them by now, 372 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: and so against the we should have found it by now, 373 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: she argues that given the tools we possessed at the 374 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: time she was writing this, it was very possible to 375 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: miss things like, Okay, you can look at microbes under 376 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: a microscope, but that can only take you so far, 377 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: because convergent evolution means that a lot of different microbes 378 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: will kind of look superficially similar in structure, like our 379 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,239 Speaker 1: chea kind of look like bacteria. And then we have 380 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: other tools like lab cultures, but lab cultures just might 381 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: fail to grow them. Uh. And then another option we 382 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: have for detecting microbial life that's difficult to culture is 383 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: known as pcr amplification. That stands for polymerase chain reaction. 384 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: It's chemical process for multiplying genetic material so that can 385 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: be detected. And PCR amplification that relies on ribosomeal rn 386 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: A would not be able to detect a microbe that 387 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: didn't have ribosomes or that had a different form of 388 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: ribosomel RNA. So basically Cleland's case here is that our 389 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: best tools for looking for chemical signs of life, at 390 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: least at the time she was writing, are kind of 391 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: tuned to the kinds of life that we know about, 392 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: and they might completely pass over a potential shadow biosphere 393 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: if it existed. Now there's another possible objection, which is 394 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: that wouldn't we have observed these microbes, the shadow microbes, 395 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: by the effect they have on their environment. Of course, 396 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: we observe the effects of common known microbes on the 397 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: environment all the time. She says, quote life invariably modifies 398 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: its environment, extracting energy, building structures, producing waste products. So 399 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 1: you know, all of the oxygen in the atmosphere is 400 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: a product of of microscopic life, or at least was originally. 401 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: Now I guess it's also the product of macroscopic life. 402 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: But she says, actually, you know, this is a really 403 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: good way to look for these things, to look for 404 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: the effects they have on their environments. And Cleveland argues 405 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: that it's possible that up until now their effects have 406 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: always blended in with the background noise of effects produced 407 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: by other microbes. So it's possible we just haven't looked 408 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: closely enough in the right places, or we've been hindered 409 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 1: by the bounds of an existing paradigm of molecular biology, 410 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: she writes, quote. Similar cases can be found in biology, 411 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: such as the discovery of Archaea, a new variety of 412 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: familiar microbial life that revolutionized biological taxonomy. And so it's 413 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: background our Archaea is now considered one of the three 414 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: main domains or super kingdoms of life. You've got eukaryotes, 415 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: which includes all multicellular life bacteria, and then Archaea and 416 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: Archaia used to be thought of as just a type 417 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: of bacteria. It's now recognized has been recognized since the 418 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, I think nineteen seventy seven that archias is 419 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: a totally different domain, a different evolutionary history. But she 420 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: goes on, in hindsight, it's clear there were signs that 421 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: some prokaryotes are fundamentally different from others, despite their remarkable 422 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: similarities and sell morphology. But because biologists were working under 423 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: the prokaryot you carry a paradigm which use cellular morphology 424 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: as the guiding principle for understanding taxonomic relations, these signs 425 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: went unrecognized. So we were just looking at the shapes 426 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: of cells and thinking that would tell us everything we 427 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: needed to know, and it didn't. Actually, and then finally, 428 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: as she ends the article by calling out a possible 429 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: example of a place to look for alternative microbiology or 430 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: alternative molecular biology. Sorry, she singles out an example known 431 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: as desert varnish. And this is a thin coating of discoloration, 432 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: usually kind of a red or dark discoloration that you 433 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: see on exposed rock faces in deserts and other dry areas. 434 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: You've probably seen it before if you looked at some 435 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: desert rocks that had a kind of dark red or 436 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: black shiny surface. And I've read that since this two 437 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: thousand six s a new discoveries have made desert varnish 438 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: appear to be very unlikely as a result of shadow 439 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: biological processes. But that doesn't mean the question has gone away. 440 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: I mean the questions about a possible shadow biosphere remain. 441 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: More recently, I was reading an article about this in 442 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: Science by Emily Conover. This was in and Conover points 443 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: out developments since the the original idea of a shadow 444 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: biosphere have have continually been introduced. They make it more 445 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: and more interesting. For example, discoveries that make clear how 446 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: our traditional definitions of Earth life are just not quite 447 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: inclusive enough. They don't necessarily capture all the possibilities. For example, 448 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: quote recently discovered giant amiba infecting viruses blur the line 449 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: between life and non life, although they rely on their 450 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: hosts for essential biological functions, meaning you know, they're not 451 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: self sustaining. The bacteria sized viruses have complex genomes. So 452 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: the question would be, then, how are scientists currently looking 453 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: for signs of possible alternative biochemistry if there's a shadow 454 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: biosphere on Earth? Uh? And she quotes the planetary scientist 455 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: Carolyn Porco of the Space Science Institute in Boulder, Colorado, 456 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: who says, you know, a really good way to look 457 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: for these things is to go back to the last 458 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: point that Cleveland raised in the article, look for disequilibriums 459 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: in nature. Look for environments that are sort of out 460 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: of balance or out of whack. Quote. Life takes in 461 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: and uses energy, altering its environment in the process. Without life, 462 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 1: for example, our planet would not have an oxygen rich atmosphere, 463 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: as chemical reactions tend to deplete oxygen. She also mentions 464 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: some other interesting possibilities, such as the idea that this 465 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: one is raised by David Lynn of Emory University, who 466 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: draws attention to the idea of misfolded proteins representing a 467 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: possible type of alternative life. Says quote, they show some 468 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: similarities to life, namely that they can generate diversity in 469 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: the different ways that they fold, can undergo chemical evolution 470 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: in which those folded proteins are selected not genetically but chemically. 471 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: And this could be a kind of precursor to some 472 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 1: sort of of chemical network that would be very different 473 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: than what we're familiar with. Uh And I was also 474 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: reading an article this is the one I mentioned earlier 475 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: by Samantha Rolf, which is about the hypothetical option of 476 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: of a shadow biosphere based on silicon molecules instead of 477 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: carbon molecules, and silicon, of course is not nearly as 478 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: good at as as carbon doing the kinds of things 479 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: molecules need to do inside a cell. But there have 480 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: been experiments that created silicon bonds in bacteria that make 481 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: it seem at least possible that some kind of silicon 482 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: based life form could exist. So in the end, I 483 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,719 Speaker 1: want to be very clear that we don't know that 484 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: there is a shadow biosphere of some kind on Earth. 485 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: We don't have any strong evidence that there is, but 486 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: we do know at least that if it exists, it 487 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: probably consists of microorganisms, if it exists at all. But 488 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: some some science fiction I want to see exploring that 489 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: is like the idea of big sort of network effects 490 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: create it on the Earth by micro organisms within a 491 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: shadow microbial ecosystem, you know, if memory serves me correctly. Uh. 492 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: It's been several years since I read these, but Peter 493 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: Watts's book Starfish involves a plot element that it that 494 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: it entails this uh, an ancient apocalyptic microbe called Behemoth 495 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: that gets unleashed on the Earth. It's been like hiding 496 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: out in the bottom of the ocean. That sounds good. Yeah, yeah, 497 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's quite good. I don't know why 498 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: I haven't read Starfish yet. Maybe they'll be next on 499 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: my list. But you know, Peter Watts aside, what does 500 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: what does sar Do have to say about this? You 501 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: know Sardo unfortunately as a Charlatan. And this raises a 502 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: question that is true of I think many sort of 503 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, okay, kind of fast and loose horror 504 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: or or or supernatural properties, which is that it often 505 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: appears that you are able to buy real magical artifacts 506 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: and sears tomes on the occult within, just like crank 507 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: magic shops that have fake vomit in them. Why why 508 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: is that so common? I mean, part of it's the 509 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: hunter gatherer instinct, right, the idea that we could go 510 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: into a junk store and find something of value, you know, 511 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: like it's why I will go into a thrift store 512 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: and I'll see if I can find a copy of 513 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: Jerry McGuire and VHS like It's it seems unlikely that 514 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: such treasures are still available, but I'm still gonna look 515 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: and occasionally I find one that's true magic though Sardo 516 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: is also contributing to the pyramid in the desert. Yeah, 517 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: so better than I also think. Another big part of 518 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: it is the kind of like small town magic shop 519 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: and and God bless them where you can still find them. Uh, 520 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: you know, anytime I see one, I have to I 521 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: have to check it out. But but shops like that too. 522 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: We like the idea that they could have genuine occult 523 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: things in them because that means we have access to them. 524 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: That means there is a a possibly there a possible 525 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: connection between ourselves and the supernatural and the fantastic. I 526 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: guess for some reason, at a gut level, I find 527 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: it much more plausible to find the occult tome or 528 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: the real magical artifact in a thrift shop or something 529 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: that I do in the in the novelty magic shop. 530 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe that's just me. Well, you know, 531 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: strange sudden deaths are always happening to legitimate wizards, and 532 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: then who's going to sell their stuff? And where are 533 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: they going to sell their stuff? It's gonna get pawned 534 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: off to the local magic shop. I guess that's it. 535 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: You you combine them the thrift shop, and that they've 536 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: got a second hand element, and that can then anything 537 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: can happen. Yeah, now it's probably eBay. It's the most 538 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: of your monkey pods are being bought on eBay these days. 539 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: And then you get it and you're like, all the 540 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: fingers are still are folded on this thing. I don't 541 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: even get all the wishes. Here's something I want to 542 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: hear from listeners. What is the creepiest like most cursed 543 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: antique or artifact object you've ever bought her or or 544 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: somehow acquired. Yeah, I'd love to hear that too. All right, 545 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take a break, but 546 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: when we come back more horror anthology. Thank alright for 547 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: our next uh anthology selection this year, I'd like to 548 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: return to the crypt Tales from the crypt Uh, The 549 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: The the the awesome HBO series that that was was 550 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: It was an adaptation of these older pre code horror 551 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: comic books and as we said before, just does it 552 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: generally does a great job of creating these, at times 553 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: kind of trashy uh in nasty tales of often bad 554 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: things happening to be happening to bad people, bad people 555 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: getting their come uppance in some sort of grizzly twisted manner. 556 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: This one that you picked for for today's episode. I 557 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: watched last night and it has a spectacular intro full 558 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: of puns by the crypt Keeper. Can we share some 559 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: of these puns or do you already have them written down? 560 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: I do not have them written down, but if you, 561 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: if you have them just floating around your head, let's 562 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: see what were they? So? I can't do crypt Keeper voice, 563 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: but it has something to do with getting a house, 564 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: getting a little house on the scary a tomb with 565 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: the view, what are you afraid you can't get a mortgage? Yes? So, 566 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: the the intro to the show was amazing, The crypt 567 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: Keeper segments were amazing, and then the the episodes themselves 568 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: are often. Um I mean it's rare that there's not 569 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: something notable about them, either a major star or someone 570 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: who would become a major star, just a great character. 571 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: Actors present, oftentimes big league directors, uh you know, slummed 572 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: it up for Tales in the Crypt or or likely 573 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: just had like a really good time with the series, 574 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: And um, yeah, I find myself returning to them time 575 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: and time again. Um it's I remember watching it often 576 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: half scrambled on HBO when I was like a middle schooler, 577 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: and it was you know, this perfect cable TV nether 578 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: world of titilation and gore to immerse yourself in. Uh. Um, 579 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's interesting that you know the back 580 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: then that that that was the way to watch it, 581 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: like sort of like pirated half scrambled format. Uh And nowadays, 582 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: as of October, it looks like the rights to the 583 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: series are contested or something. I don't know. I don't 584 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: I don't know the precise legal prison that it finds 585 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: itself in. But you cannot stream it anywhere. Um, you 586 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: can't buy it digitally. Uh So as of right now, 587 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: the only place you can watch these episodes are like 588 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: on YouTube and daily motion unless you have like pre 589 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: existing digital purchases, which I have on some of the 590 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: episodes but not all of them. Well, I think what 591 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: you're getting at is that it actually feels appropriate with 592 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: the low quality, because it's like watching it through like 593 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: a scrambled cable saying yeah, yeah, it's actually better quality 594 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: than uh than most of the time when I was 595 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: watching it when I was younger. Um. But yeah, I 596 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,959 Speaker 1: keep hoping that it will come back because you know, 597 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: there's still other tales to tell. And they could retell 598 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: others and create new ones in the same vibe. I mean, 599 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: clearly people have been doing that over and over again 600 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: across the decades. And also John Cassiar the the voice 601 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 1: of the of the crypt Keeper. He is very much alive. 602 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: Not only is he alive, but he is on cameo. 603 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: I found out I was I was talking with my 604 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: wife about a friend of ours getting cameo videos for 605 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: their their spouse for their birthday, and I was like, yeah, 606 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: cameo just doesn't really interest me unless it was the 607 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: crypt Keeper. Maybe if it was the crypt Keeper, I'd 608 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 1: be interested. And sure enough, Uh, he's on there, seventy 609 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: dollars a pop. Um. He holds the crypt Keeper like 610 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: mask over his face when he does he so you 611 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: don't get the full puppet performance, but still you get 612 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: the voice. After you brought this to my attention, I 613 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: was investigating and I found out you can get cameo 614 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: messages from Zordon from Power Rangers, but not about Sardo. 615 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: Sardo on there. Oh, I didn't look for sar Dough. 616 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: I should have. All right, we'll have to look for 617 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: Sarto later. Um. Anyway, like I said, a lot of 618 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 1: these episodes of Tales from the Crypt are ghastly and 619 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: dizzily and there's a lot of blood in them. Um. 620 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: But this one that we're going to discuss here is 621 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: is a bit different. Uh. This one is titled Maniac 622 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: at Large and it's uh, it's really a rather tasteful 623 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: affair as far as Tales from the Crypt goes. And 624 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: it's directed by John Frankenheimer, famous for such films as 625 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: The Manurian Candidate. And it stars Blithe Danner, a veteran 626 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: of stage and screen that you've probably you've almost certainly 627 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: seen her in something before because she's been in everything. 628 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: It also has Salomi Jen's who I found out was 629 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: in a movie called Terror from the year five thousand, 630 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: which was a i think a double feature drive in 631 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: double feature from the late fifties with the Brain Eaters, 632 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite movie posters of all time. 633 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: That is a great movie poster. Yeah, that's I've never 634 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: seen it, but I've seen the movie poster time and 635 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 1: time again. I think I've had it as a desktop 636 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: wallpaper before. Um. It has a couple of other notable 637 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: character actors in it. Well, one character actor in one 638 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: kind of rock star celebrity Clarence Williams the Third is 639 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,760 Speaker 1: in it. He plays a security guard. He's another actor. 640 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: You look him up. You've definitely seen something with Clarence. 641 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: Clarence Williams the Third in it, and he gets He 642 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,879 Speaker 1: gets a fun role that it is at times kind 643 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: of creepy. But then Adam Aunt himself shows up as 644 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: a mega creepy library patron. Adam Aunt has strong ted 645 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 1: Ramie vibes in this. Yeah so again this this episode 646 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: is extremely solid, quite reserved for a crip episode, but 647 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 1: with some satisfying twists and turns. The basic plot here 648 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: is that Danner's character, Margaret has just started a job 649 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: at a library in the big city. She's trying to 650 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: navigate the environment, figure out, you know, who she can trust, 651 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: who she doesn't, What are the clientele like, what's this 652 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: creepy Adam at dude all about um uh and getting 653 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: You're just getting used to the new job, all while 654 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: a serial killer remains at large in the city. I 655 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: would say this is very much part of the early 656 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: nineties urban hell subgenre, which is the I don't know 657 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: if it's a genre, really is just sort of a 658 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: set of assumptions shared by it seems like every movie 659 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: made in like the late eighties early nineties, which is 660 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: just that like cities in general and New York in particular, 661 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: our Hell on Earth and and uh, that you just 662 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: don't want to be in the city, and that it's 663 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: associated with just like littering and crime and traffic and 664 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: and misery. But but anyway, yeah, it's very much the 665 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 1: idea that this is the city is a bad place, 666 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: and the library is is not a great place within 667 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: the city. But she's doing the best you can. Now, 668 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: I will say there's some there's some twist and turns 669 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: that occur that turn some of these elements on their head. 670 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: But this one's got a good twist. I think this 671 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: is a good twist. We're not gonna ruin it. Go 672 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: check it out again. As of this recording, you can 673 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: probably just find it on YouTube, which is that you 674 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: should be able to watch this in a more pristine quality. 675 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: But at any rate, several elements worth pulling out for 676 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 1: our discussion here. Adam Ant's character Pipkin, is obsessed with 677 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: serial killers, so he keeps coming up to Margaret and 678 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: just chat in her up about serial killer, saying just 679 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: all sorts of creepy things, just an overload of creepy 680 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 1: serial killer obsession things. I just remembered something. It was 681 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: at the back of my mind and then I pulled 682 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: it up. There was a movie from nine that I 683 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: watched in a terrible VHS copy many years ago called 684 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,879 Speaker 1: spell Caster that also has Adam Aunt in it. And 685 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: Adam Aunt had a fairly extensive film career. In this movie, 686 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: I think he plays an evil wizard. Well, he's good 687 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: in this. I have to say. His name is Dia Blow. 688 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: All right. So you have Adam as character Pipkin, just 689 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: being obsessed with serial killers and being very creepy and suspect. Also, 690 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,879 Speaker 1: Margaret herself has become increasingly obsessed with the idea that 691 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 1: she will be the killer's next victim. Creepy things keep happening, 692 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: people keep bacting creepy um, and she keeps and she's 693 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: clearly obsessing over the fact that she could and perhaps 694 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: will be next. And it's this is sort of spurred 695 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: on by Adam as character because he's like, who's the 696 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: next victim going to be? I think it'll be a 697 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: woman this time. Yes, yes, yeah, he said, slimy. It's wonderful. 698 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: But then also she keeps she's bringing some of this 699 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: up to the head librarian Mrs Pritchard, and Miss Pritchard 700 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: she tries to like stamp this down a bit. She 701 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: just largely dismisses the serial killer as being this inflated 702 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: news story and a matter of mass hysteria. So I 703 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: thought all of this would be a perfect reason to 704 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: explore the question why are we so obsessed with serial 705 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: killers and true crime? You've you've probably noticed this already, 706 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: but murder podcasts are big business. I feel like barely 707 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: a week goes by without a new announcement about some 708 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: new ghoulish podcast either it's either at least true crime, 709 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: if not a serial killer podcast as well, Robert, I 710 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: hate to break it to you, but the call is 711 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: coming from inside the house because so we we we 712 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: got quite a number of these within our own family here. 713 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, I mean it's a big it's an 714 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,879 Speaker 1: ever growing family, so it encompasses all sorts of types 715 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: of podcast even sports podcasts are around. Uh. So you know, 716 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: I don't mean to be judging on that that fact, 717 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: or just judge you about true crime enthusiasm to begin with, 718 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: because I can I can easily think of some great 719 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: reads I've enjoyed that are about serial killers. I've enjoyed 720 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: some true crime content in the past, and and heck, 721 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: we're talking about a great episode of Tales from the 722 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: Crypt that conciderned serial killers. Um. And as far as 723 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: just more general true crime goes, I like a lot 724 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: of people grew up watching Unsolved mysteries and scaring you know, 725 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: the pants off of myself, not only about ghosts and aliens, 726 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: but also about just random acts of crime and madness. 727 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: I would say one of the most powerful sounds in 728 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 1: the entire world in terms of unlocking just a host 729 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: of creepy associations in my brain is the Unsolved Mysteries 730 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: theme music. The moment that plays the trapdoor in my 731 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: brain opens and everything comes out. Now. Obviously, when we're 732 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,240 Speaker 1: talking about true time, there's a broad spectrum of good 733 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: and bad uh taste within within the genre, and it 734 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: ranges greatly. I mean, there's the whole domain of police 735 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: procedural true crime, which of course entails say that the 736 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: work of David Simon and others. There's also the grizzlier 737 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 1: stuff that can border on just sort of creepy serial 738 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,800 Speaker 1: killer obsession. And then there's there's the psychologically minded stuff, 739 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, the mind of a killer type approach, which 740 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: I guess can be a little on the creepy side 741 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,399 Speaker 1: at times, but also can just be very well put 742 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: together and formulated and and and in many cases based 743 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: on actual psychology and the actual um uh you know, 744 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: actual studies into the minds of serial killers. There's also 745 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,399 Speaker 1: highly journalistic stuff as well as the kind of sort 746 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 1: of citizen journalist and citizen investigator uh fair that has 747 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: also proven highly popular. But it really does seem at 748 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: times like our our appetite is just insatiable and uh, 749 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: and it leads us times to wonder, like, what does 750 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,399 Speaker 1: it all means? Where does this where is this coming from? 751 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: What is the the itch that it is scratching? Uh, 752 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 1: you know, and and is it some sort of modern 753 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: phenomenon or is it just an aspect of of of 754 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,280 Speaker 1: the human experience. I'm interested in what creates the difference 755 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: between the tolerance for uh, fictional violence versus the tolerance 756 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: for true crime. Like just personally, I like a lot 757 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 1: of like, you know, violent scary fictional horror stuff, but 758 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: I don't have much of an appetite for true crime, 759 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: and there are people who are totally the opposite, you know, 760 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: like a monster movie to them would seem like gross 761 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 1: and overwhelming and unpleasant, but they will just devour true crime. 762 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: And obviously there's some kind of difference at play there, 763 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: but I'm not sure exactly what it is. What would 764 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 1: Rocky Ericson have said about it? Didn't he have an 765 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: insightful quote about the different types of horror I think 766 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: you might be thinking of where he says that today's 767 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,760 Speaker 1: movies prey on your inner fees and steady your outer fears. 768 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: And that's why I wrote the line don't slip in 769 00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: mud or you'll slip in blood. Tonight is the Night 770 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,719 Speaker 1: of the Vampire. Doesn't necessarily clarify a lot, but there 771 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: there's some kind of obscure wisdom. Yeah, yeah, I agree, 772 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 1: it's worth keeping in mind as we move forward. And 773 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 1: even though again he's referring to just a division within 774 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,879 Speaker 1: horror fiction as opposed to UH fiction versus reality. So 775 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,439 Speaker 1: I think one thing to get out of the way 776 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 1: is that I think we can we can safely dismiss 777 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 1: the idea that this is a new phenomenon because we've 778 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: pretty much always had crime stories of one sort or 779 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: the other, and our fascination with it is to a 780 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: large extent fueled by our fear of real crime. But 781 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: if you look back to a lot of of myths, uh, 782 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, you find something interesting. You know, these are 783 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,840 Speaker 1: stories of people who commit crimes. Often now they're committing 784 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 1: crimes against the gods or some sort of you know, 785 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,760 Speaker 1: celestial or infernal order in the world. Um. But then likewise, 786 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,760 Speaker 1: what are modern laws and social norms but modern gods 787 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: of a sort? I think a lot of anthropologists of 788 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,560 Speaker 1: religion would probably argue that what the gods were with 789 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: some kind of embodiment of laws or norms. Yeah, and uh, 790 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: I've also seen it. It argued that if you want 791 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 1: something more in line with a pure crime story, you 792 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: can look to the the the Arabic go one thousand 793 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: and one Night's Tales and that tradition uh to provide 794 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: some great examples of of what is essentially early crime fiction, uh, 795 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: the exploits of criminals, the come upance of criminals, etcetera. 796 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: So on one hand, perhaps we're just exaggerating to try 797 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: and make anything out of modern true crime interest, as 798 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 1: if it's something new, but there is a lot of 799 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,919 Speaker 1: interesting insight out there into like what it means, where 800 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,879 Speaker 1: where does this interest in crime fiction uh and and 801 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: and and true crime come from? And one particular expert 802 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:51,280 Speaker 1: that I was I've heard an NPR story UH featuring 803 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: this is from two thousand nine and they were talking 804 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: with clinical and corporate psychologist Michael mantell Um and UH. 805 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,280 Speaker 1: They pointed out that there are several key elements involved 806 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: in our enjoyment of true crime. First of all, there's 807 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: the not me elephant combined with psychological voyeurism. So it's 808 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 1: if you're not watching a crime or you know, a 809 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,399 Speaker 1: murder or what have you that is affecting you, you're 810 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: watching something that affects somebody else, and we are engaging 811 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,360 Speaker 1: in a certain amount of psychological voyeurism in that case. 812 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: On top of that, there's a catharsis in identifying with 813 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 1: the victim uh. And this is UH and we have 814 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: like rehearsed anxiety in these cases over terrible occurrences. So 815 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: it's almost like um uh, via our our our empathy, 816 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 1: we're able to simulate these horrible things without them actually 817 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: happening to us. Now, the other the flip side, of that, 818 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: of course, is that you can also engage in compassion 819 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: and empathy with the perpetrator, not necessarily to the level 820 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,279 Speaker 1: of saying like, oh, man, I wish I was I 821 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 1: wish I was like Charlie, but but more like, you know, 822 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: what if I was like trying? You know, I think, 823 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: I think that's all. That's key to a lot of 824 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: our psychological fascination with serial murders, for instance, is that 825 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: we know that, Okay, this individual, their brain is not 826 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,680 Speaker 1: exactly like our brain, but but a lot of things 827 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 1: are the same, and therefore it's tempting to analyze that 828 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: those comparisons and think, what if I, you know, it 829 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,400 Speaker 1: was just a few degrees to the laft free to 830 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: the right. Could I find myself in this kind of mindset? 831 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: Could I find myself having committed acts like this, not 832 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: only as far as nature goes, but also as far 833 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,759 Speaker 1: as nurture goes as well. You know, if my life 834 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,799 Speaker 1: conditions had been a little different, would I be you know, 835 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 1: the figure on the television right now? Would I be 836 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: the subject of this podcast episode? Yeah? I'd say. A 837 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,319 Speaker 1: variation on that is that people might sometimes just want 838 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: to feel like they're getting a better idea of what 839 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: to look out for in other people, because you know, 840 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: it's it's a cliche at this point that somebody commits 841 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,319 Speaker 1: a horrible act, doesn't mass murderer turns out to be 842 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: a serial killer or something, and you know, the the 843 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 1: news camera interviews their their neighbor, and it's like, oh, 844 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 1: he seemed like a really nice guy. I wouldn't have 845 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,880 Speaker 1: known it. And you know, sometimes that is the case. 846 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: People want to be able to think like I could 847 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 1: figure out I could figure out who was the sick. Oh, 848 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 1: I could figure out who was the bad guy. And 849 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 1: maybe there's a sort of feeling, at least a subconscious 850 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,239 Speaker 1: level that by consuming a lot of true crime, you 851 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: could somehow you can discern a pattern, you can figure out. Okay, 852 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: here's how I could sniff out the Jeffrey Dahmer. Yes, yeah, absolutely, 853 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: And I want to come back to to some of 854 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 1: that in a minute. But but it's also worth keeping 855 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: in mind all of this in considering the essential Essentially, 856 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,239 Speaker 1: there are two types of crime stories, right, there's the 857 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,720 Speaker 1: case closed crime story, uh, and then there's also, uh, 858 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: the the open case. So on one hand, we love 859 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,319 Speaker 1: a good uh, you know, structurally complete tale. We love 860 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 1: a story in which the bad guy is apprehended, the 861 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,480 Speaker 1: right bad guy is apprehended, and in the case is closed. 862 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: And you see a lot of that in um in 863 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,840 Speaker 1: true crime, you know, people, especially if it's you know, 864 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,200 Speaker 1: very oh, you know, a lot of the police procedural stuff, 865 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 1: for example, is about that, like how do they catch 866 00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 1: the batties? What can I remember the series the New Detectives. 867 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: What kind of really cool technology are they using to 868 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 1: catch the batties? But on the other hand, the open cases, 869 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,719 Speaker 1: the unsolved mysteries, like that sitantalizing as well, because, uh, 870 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: you know, on some level, even if it's it's just 871 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: a slim chance, you could you could watch that and 872 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: think I might be the next victim, or I might 873 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,799 Speaker 1: be the one to solve this, you know, I could, 874 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: I could be the one. I could notice this thing, 875 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 1: I could learn, I know what to look for, and 876 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: if this fellow comes limping up to me with a 877 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: fake cast, I can call him on it and I'll 878 00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,720 Speaker 1: be the hero. I think that's right. But actually another 879 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: thing just occurred to me. And this is based on 880 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: your earlier point about psychological voyeurism, which is the idea 881 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,800 Speaker 1: of in a way, watching like a serial killer story 882 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,000 Speaker 1: where they ultimately get caught is kind of like just 883 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: another form of the watching somebody fail spectacularly thing where 884 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,239 Speaker 1: you like to see somebody who you know, who's in 885 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,959 Speaker 1: control of things like lose control and and spiral out 886 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,920 Speaker 1: and all that. Uh, the just a morbid version of 887 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,719 Speaker 1: it might be Okay, here's the serial killer. They've got 888 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: a system, they've got a method for not getting caught, 889 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: but then they get sloppy and it all spirals out 890 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,880 Speaker 1: of control and they fail and they go to jail. Yeah, 891 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:34,920 Speaker 1: this is kind of I would say. The lesson is 892 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: sort of committing crime is hard, and it's it can 893 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: be a weird positive experience too to encounter that, because 894 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,439 Speaker 1: it can make you feel comfortable and the fact that like, oh, well, 895 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,600 Speaker 1: you know, if you commit a crime, you're probably gonna 896 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: get caught. It can give you, at times even an 897 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:57,719 Speaker 1: inflated sense of of of the competency of of police investigations. UM. 898 00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,600 Speaker 1: On the other hand, it can be kind of like, uh, like, who, 899 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:03,520 Speaker 1: I guess I'm not going to commit crime because it 900 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,560 Speaker 1: looks really hard. You know, if it were easy, I 901 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 1: guess I'd give it a shot. But I'd probably get caught, 902 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:09,720 Speaker 1: so I better not. I wasn't gonna do it anyway, 903 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,759 Speaker 1: but now I know that I'm definitely not going to 904 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: do it. Actually, now that I think about it, this 905 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,640 Speaker 1: might be even more the case in I don't know 906 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,840 Speaker 1: less grizzly true crime, not just in serial killers, but 907 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 1: really in stuff where like there's a con artist or 908 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:25,879 Speaker 1: somebody executing massive financial crime or something like that, where 909 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,960 Speaker 1: there's an element of the hot mess allure that you 910 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,480 Speaker 1: you know, like it's really exciting to to see somebody 911 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,000 Speaker 1: on social media who's just like a hot mess and 912 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 1: they're flaming out and really making things bad for themselves. 913 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,120 Speaker 1: I think there's a there's a strong element of that 914 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,040 Speaker 1: in a lot of these things, like you're reading about 915 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:48,239 Speaker 1: Bernie made Off or something. Yeah, and and again it's 916 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,800 Speaker 1: also yeah, it's it's about bad people getting their come uppings. Right, Alright, 917 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 1: time for a quick break. We'll be right back with 918 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:59,879 Speaker 1: more than and we're back now. One thing that when 919 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,480 Speaker 1: and Mentel was asked in this NPR piece about about 920 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:08,640 Speaker 1: about different gender demographics in the consumption of true crime now, 921 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,239 Speaker 1: Mantell said that that he didn't see any kind of 922 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:17,440 Speaker 1: you know, notable demographic differences. Uh, and he he suspected 923 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,719 Speaker 1: that there was still likely there's still likely differences in 924 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: the sort of crime stories that interested different demographics. However, 925 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,520 Speaker 1: I think most of me listening out there, you've probably 926 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:28,879 Speaker 1: heard quite the opposite. And I know that I've heard 927 00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:34,600 Speaker 1: this multiple times in meetings about podcast listener demographics, that 928 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 1: the true crime audience use female. And I have to 929 00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,160 Speaker 1: be honest, I don't think I was really aware of 930 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,880 Speaker 1: this until it started coming up in podcast meetings. I just, 931 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,560 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I can look back and find some 932 00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,080 Speaker 1: sort of uh, some memories and be like, oh, well, 933 00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,799 Speaker 1: that kind of lines up with this alleged statistic, But 934 00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,480 Speaker 1: I don't think I had really thought about it before then. 935 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:55,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if there's any evidence to that gender 936 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,920 Speaker 1: divide or not. I assume you'll tell me in a minute. 937 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 1: But but one thing I would suspect is, even if 938 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,880 Speaker 1: there is, it probably depends on what you define as crime. 939 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,680 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, um, And I'm not sure there is a 940 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,440 Speaker 1: true definitive answer on that. Like I said, the podcast 941 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,480 Speaker 1: number of crunchers seemed pretty sure about it. They're certainly 942 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,240 Speaker 1: willing to, you know, to invest money behind the idea. 943 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,240 Speaker 1: But one paper I did look at was one title 944 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,240 Speaker 1: captured by true crime. Why Are Women Drawn to Tales 945 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: of Rape, Murder and Serial Killers? By Amanda M. Vickery 946 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,920 Speaker 1: and are Chris Freeley, published in two thousand ten by 947 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:34,839 Speaker 1: Social Psychological and Personality Science. So exploring this reported demographic 948 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,319 Speaker 1: divide here, the authors looked at Amazon book reviews and 949 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,960 Speaker 1: found that men seemed more likely to review war books 950 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,399 Speaker 1: and women were more likely to review crime books. Uh, 951 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: they had research subjects than read crime fiction synopsises and 952 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,239 Speaker 1: report and they found that women were more drawn to 953 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,759 Speaker 1: the psychological content of true crime, and they were more 954 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,720 Speaker 1: likely to read true crime books if the victim was female. Okay, 955 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,080 Speaker 1: so it's not a perfect measure of actual reading habits 956 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,799 Speaker 1: in the wild, but that is. But it's at least 957 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,160 Speaker 1: an interesting datum to begin with, right, Yeah, if you're 958 00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,520 Speaker 1: gonna start somewhere. Again, it's not the most robust um study. 959 00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,120 Speaker 1: I don't thin they're putting it up is that, but 960 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:20,000 Speaker 1: it's a good place to start. So um Vicari's take is, 961 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,399 Speaker 1: ultimately is that it all comes down to survival, kind 962 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: of touching on what we were discussing earlier. True crime 963 00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 1: tends to revolve in some way around the challenges of 964 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 1: surviving a crime. It's either just an obvious survival story, 965 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 1: or it's a tale from which one might draw survival ideas. 966 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 1: What did the doomed character do that that doomed them? 967 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,560 Speaker 1: You know, what can I do differently to avoid said doom? 968 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,920 Speaker 1: And so even on a subconscious level, it's about learning 969 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,480 Speaker 1: how to avoid and survive crimes. And this makes sense 970 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,600 Speaker 1: to us, the author's point out, because women tend to 971 00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,960 Speaker 1: fear crime more than men, and our statistically more likely 972 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,920 Speaker 1: to be the victim of crime. According to the U 973 00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,719 Speaker 1: s Department of Justice, in two thousand eight, females aged 974 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,280 Speaker 1: twelve or older were five times more likely than males 975 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,440 Speaker 1: aged twelve or older to be victims of intimate partner violence. 976 00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,239 Speaker 1: And additionally, in two thousand seven, intimate partners committed fourteen 977 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,520 Speaker 1: percent of all homicides in the US. And those are 978 00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:22,439 Speaker 1: some pretty sobering statistics. By the way, October is also 979 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,719 Speaker 1: National Domestic Violence Awareness Month in the US. Just a reminder, 980 00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,480 Speaker 1: the National Domestic Violence Hotline is one eight hundred seven 981 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,920 Speaker 1: nine nine Safe or one eight hundred seven nine nine 982 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,440 Speaker 1: seven to three three. But let's get back to this 983 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,880 Speaker 1: idea of of survival. Um. Uh. So as engaging with 984 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,440 Speaker 1: these crime stories is kind of like a rehearsal for survival, 985 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,880 Speaker 1: learning experience for the survival of crime. Uh, it seems 986 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,520 Speaker 1: implied that the reverse would be the same for these uh, 987 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,040 Speaker 1: the these male readers who are then reading all of 988 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,160 Speaker 1: this war that it's also about survival, uh, you know, 989 00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,680 Speaker 1: processing the riddle of survival in the brain. And I 990 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,040 Speaker 1: feel that makes sense Without getting into the the idea 991 00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,880 Speaker 1: of the gender divide, I know that that I've personally 992 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,839 Speaker 1: dealt with the stresses of twenty by in part thinking 993 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,400 Speaker 1: a lot about say, war games, clone wars, the galactic 994 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,640 Speaker 1: civil war, the wars of ants, that sort of thing. 995 00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:16,840 Speaker 1: And and but then likewise, I can think back to 996 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,719 Speaker 1: times in my life where I found similar solace in 997 00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,759 Speaker 1: crime fiction, where um, you know, I distinctly remember a 998 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,319 Speaker 1: time where there's a fair amount of stress in my 999 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,719 Speaker 1: life and I was watching some um these were these 1000 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,960 Speaker 1: were fictional accounts, but they're basically like slasher films, And 1001 00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:34,800 Speaker 1: I remember even thinking at the time, like this is 1002 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,080 Speaker 1: a weird way to feel chilled out by watching a 1003 00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,240 Speaker 1: film about a slasher, Like this should be this should 1004 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,520 Speaker 1: on some level be making me more anxious or making 1005 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,200 Speaker 1: me feel you know, you know, more nervous, but it's not. 1006 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,799 Speaker 1: It's somehow making me feel better. Yeah. My hunch is 1007 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,680 Speaker 1: that there are two different ways that can work. One 1008 00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,520 Speaker 1: is that if it's an effective slasher movie, then there 1009 00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,239 Speaker 1: is actually sort of an endorphin you know, emotional catharsis 1010 00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,120 Speaker 1: thing of like being afraid but then not actually being 1011 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,440 Speaker 1: and a threat. You know, once the once the fear passes, 1012 00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,840 Speaker 1: you kind of get an endorphin release and you're like, 1013 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,600 Speaker 1: oh okay, and that can be kind of calming. Um. 1014 00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:11,799 Speaker 1: It can give you a sense of control to have 1015 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:15,120 Speaker 1: the ironic distance and like watch something that is actually 1016 00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:18,359 Speaker 1: scary but then know that it's not real. And then 1017 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,280 Speaker 1: on the other end, if you're watching like a bad 1018 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,040 Speaker 1: slasher movie, I think there's a different there's a similar 1019 00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:26,040 Speaker 1: and simultaneously different thing at work, which is there's still 1020 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,120 Speaker 1: the ironic difference, but the ironic difference element is played 1021 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,239 Speaker 1: up to the point where like watching something that is 1022 00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,640 Speaker 1: supposed to be scary but is in fact funny is 1023 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,319 Speaker 1: very reassuring. You know, it makes you feel like there's 1024 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,160 Speaker 1: maybe not that much to worry about well, just thinking 1025 00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,480 Speaker 1: of bad slasher films, Like how many of us have 1026 00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:47,880 Speaker 1: watched the slasher films and really harped on on the 1027 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:49,840 Speaker 1: the idea of what to do when you get this 1028 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:53,000 Speaker 1: the killer down right, Like, obviously the thing to do 1029 00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:55,439 Speaker 1: within the context of the films is if you knock 1030 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,279 Speaker 1: the killer out, you slowly approach them and take their 1031 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,000 Speaker 1: mask off. You don't a grab their weapon and stab 1032 00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,000 Speaker 1: them a million times in the torso to make sure 1033 00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,480 Speaker 1: they're debt um. But we love so at times even 1034 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,759 Speaker 1: just yelling at the screen because they are doing the 1035 00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,880 Speaker 1: wrong thing. You are not practicing good survival. But I 1036 00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:16,880 Speaker 1: at the same time and contemplating survival, and to some 1037 00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,440 Speaker 1: degree I feel like you feel like you're learning about survival. Yeah, 1038 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:22,880 Speaker 1: this is a good point. A lot of slasher movies, 1039 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,680 Speaker 1: I think could could be effective and could be enjoyable 1040 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,640 Speaker 1: to people because there are at least implied rules, like 1041 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,320 Speaker 1: there's a there's a system of rules that you can 1042 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,920 Speaker 1: suss out, and the fact that they're not announced explicitly 1043 00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:38,680 Speaker 1: makes it seem a little bit more interesting and fun 1044 00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,920 Speaker 1: that you have figured them out. You kind of know 1045 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:42,800 Speaker 1: what a lot of the you know, the mistakes the 1046 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:44,960 Speaker 1: characters are going to make ahead of time, and you 1047 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,840 Speaker 1: can think that, uh, you know, uh, Dewey here is 1048 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,920 Speaker 1: very stupid for having done that. I would have not 1049 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:53,880 Speaker 1: done that. I know better by the way of that 1050 00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,280 Speaker 1: vicary and freely paper. Uh. They also point out that 1051 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,120 Speaker 1: neither female nor may all subjects in their study were 1052 00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,720 Speaker 1: drawn to stories with explicitly emotional or sexual content, but 1053 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,800 Speaker 1: it was the psychological content that interested female test subjects. 1054 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,240 Speaker 1: Um So, I guess I suppose the idea there is 1055 00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:16,120 Speaker 1: it's coming down to um uh again survival, but but 1056 00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,280 Speaker 1: on a psychological level, like how do you tell which 1057 00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,720 Speaker 1: character is the creepy killer? Kind of coming back to 1058 00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,200 Speaker 1: our tales from the crypt episode, like is it is 1059 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,840 Speaker 1: it adam Ant? Is it his character? He's sure is 1060 00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:31,240 Speaker 1: acting creepy? Uh? Am I able to psychologically analyze him 1061 00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:34,280 Speaker 1: in a way where I can guess that he's the killer? 1062 00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,680 Speaker 1: Or is it Clance Williams the third or is it 1063 00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,840 Speaker 1: Salome Gen's. Yeah, I mean it's it's one of those 1064 00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,200 Speaker 1: episodes where all possibilities are on the table. Now A 1065 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,480 Speaker 1: couple of a couple other just short references to to 1066 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,520 Speaker 1: uh some write ups that I found insightful and all 1067 00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,480 Speaker 1: of this, As Sarah Watts points out in her Forbes 1068 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:55,560 Speaker 1: coverage of the aforementioned study, all of this lines up 1069 00:58:55,600 --> 00:59:01,120 Speaker 1: with psycholopsychologist Dr John Mayer's view that perfectly purposely exposing 1070 00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:05,640 Speaker 1: oneself to violence in these um uh these forms can 1071 00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,680 Speaker 1: serve as an inoculation against fear. But we also have 1072 00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,360 Speaker 1: to consider individual differences in all of this. So some 1073 00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: of us are drawn uh into into say true crime 1074 00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,840 Speaker 1: or horror movies because of thrill seeking personalities, but it 1075 00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,480 Speaker 1: could be more about interest in the taboo or an 1076 00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:26,480 Speaker 1: interest in dark subject matter. Uh So it's it's ultimately 1077 00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,000 Speaker 1: very difficult to create like a one size fits all 1078 00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:33,640 Speaker 1: rule for why people like true crime or horror, whatever 1079 00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:37,200 Speaker 1: the particular piece of media. Maybe you know it's funny. 1080 00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:40,000 Speaker 1: I feel like I still haven't even in this discussion 1081 00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,640 Speaker 1: figured out the answer to that question. I was asking 1082 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,200 Speaker 1: about true crime versus fictional horror, like both both deal 1083 00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:50,520 Speaker 1: with violence and fear and threats, but people have extremely 1084 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,920 Speaker 1: different reactions to them. I noticed that usually, like horror 1085 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,920 Speaker 1: movies are fun they make me feel good, and true 1086 00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,440 Speaker 1: crime just kind of usually makes me feel bad. But 1087 01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,960 Speaker 1: there are people for whom it's entirely the reverse, and 1088 01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,680 Speaker 1: I'm still not sure why. Yeah, um, And and then 1089 01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:09,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes it's about how it's presented, right, 1090 01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Like I instantly think to how both the Texas Chainsaw 1091 01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:16,680 Speaker 1: massacre and Fargo both have the introductions at the beginning 1092 01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,320 Speaker 1: to try and cast them as legitimate occurrences. You know, 1093 01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:25,000 Speaker 1: this really happened, even though both are pure fiction. Um uh. 1094 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,000 Speaker 1: But but yet I guess a lot of it comes 1095 01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,560 Speaker 1: down to the fact that I often find that the 1096 01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:35,120 Speaker 1: true crime, like that's definitely true and not you know, 1097 01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,320 Speaker 1: fictionalized to a large degree, has a tendency to feel yeah, 1098 01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,600 Speaker 1: just more just feel sadder, feel like more of a 1099 01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:46,200 Speaker 1: tragedy as opposed to a you know, violent romp. But 1100 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:49,200 Speaker 1: one area where we see, um this this is interesting 1101 01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:52,080 Speaker 1: and talking about where the fiction meets the reality. UM. 1102 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,360 Speaker 1: I was reading from a book titled Blood Obsession, Vampire, 1103 01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:59,800 Speaker 1: Serial Murder, and the Popular Imagination by Yourgo Walch, a 1104 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,560 Speaker 1: Sistant Professor of Modern Languages and director of the Language 1105 01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,560 Speaker 1: Resource Center and at Ohio University and Athens UM. In 1106 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,080 Speaker 1: this book, one of the many points that they're making 1107 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,800 Speaker 1: is that they draw this connection between serial murderers, uh, 1108 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:15,840 Speaker 1: certainly in the modern sense, and the vampire myths of 1109 01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:21,040 Speaker 1: old uh, seeing the modern serial murder as the vampire 1110 01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:25,280 Speaker 1: myth uh in real life. So you could you could 1111 01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:29,760 Speaker 1: argue that the modern serial murder um either in their 1112 01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,600 Speaker 1: their stark reality or they're sort of presumed reality. You know, 1113 01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,800 Speaker 1: they're slightly fictionalized. Uh, you know, the view of their 1114 01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,480 Speaker 1: being one around every corner, that we're still dealing with 1115 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,760 Speaker 1: a solitary humanoid hunter of other human beings that we 1116 01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,720 Speaker 1: can obsess over, and the vampire is kind of the 1117 01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:49,440 Speaker 1: the purely supernatural reflection of that same idea. And I 1118 01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:50,800 Speaker 1: think part of this comes back to what you said 1119 01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,000 Speaker 1: earlier about rules. We like that there are rules, and 1120 01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:58,080 Speaker 1: in both vampire fiction and it's certainly serial killer fiction, 1121 01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,000 Speaker 1: and to a certain extent, true crime is often about 1122 01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:03,840 Speaker 1: the rules that they will by by. Anyway, I think 1123 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,520 Speaker 1: I think the distinction is not not only you know, fascinating, 1124 01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:09,320 Speaker 1: but also it's worth keeping in mind, especially during Halloween. 1125 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,000 Speaker 1: So you can't you can't really go all in on 1126 01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:14,600 Speaker 1: Halloween and vampires and all and say that you don't 1127 01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:17,400 Speaker 1: get true crime fascination, because I think ultimately there's a 1128 01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,320 Speaker 1: lot of crossover between the two. Uh, it's just yeah. Ultimately, 1129 01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,439 Speaker 1: do you want your you know, the bad guy turning 1130 01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,680 Speaker 1: into a bat or do you want the bad guy, 1131 01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:27,960 Speaker 1: you know, limping around with a fake cast or what 1132 01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,040 Speaker 1: have you? Do you want to set to Swan Lake 1133 01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,200 Speaker 1: or do you want to set to the Unsolved Mysteries theme? 1134 01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,400 Speaker 1: I I would take Swan Lake Uh anytime. Yeah, I'm 1135 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,760 Speaker 1: I'm with you. That that Unsolved Mystery theme song kind 1136 01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,200 Speaker 1: of stirs, uh, just an innate feeling of fear in me, 1137 01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:46,400 Speaker 1: much like the Tales from the dark Side theme song. 1138 01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:49,720 Speaker 1: But the man that Unsolved Mystery song, it's that, it's 1139 01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:54,600 Speaker 1: that one like expansive bending note, you know, the Brady 1140 01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,040 Speaker 1: before the before the beat kicks in. It's so powerful. 1141 01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,160 Speaker 1: And then here comes Robert Stack walking out of the 1142 01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:06,600 Speaker 1: missed the light behind him. Ghosts Do they exist? Or 1143 01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:11,040 Speaker 1: is this another hoax? Let's watch a recreation starring Matthew McConaughey. 1144 01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,920 Speaker 1: You know, Unsolved Mysteries gets a lot funnier after you've 1145 01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,520 Speaker 1: recently rewatched Bavis and butt Head do America. Because Robert 1146 01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,920 Speaker 1: Staff agent on that. Yes, yes, that was that was good. 1147 01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:26,040 Speaker 1: I remember that now, all right, well, we're gonna go 1148 01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,360 Speaker 1: ahead and close it up for now, but I think 1149 01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,440 Speaker 1: we're coming back for a third episode this year. What 1150 01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:37,680 Speaker 1: it will be volume six seven six, I think so 1151 01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:42,000 Speaker 1: maybe volume six six six be on the lookout. Basically, 1152 01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,040 Speaker 1: the situation is going to be, uh, we will We're 1153 01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:47,680 Speaker 1: gonna be recording episodes during the week of Halloween for 1154 01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:50,480 Speaker 1: the week after Halloween, and we don't really want to 1155 01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,920 Speaker 1: record non Halloween episodes during the week of Halloween, so 1156 01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna get a little extra Halloween this year. Um, 1157 01:03:56,920 --> 01:04:00,600 Speaker 1: so hopefully you're okay with that, But then then we'll 1158 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:05,360 Speaker 1: move on to some other topics if we feel like it. Yes, 1159 01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:08,200 Speaker 1: all right, if you want to check out other episodes 1160 01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:09,520 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow your Mind, you know where to 1161 01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,400 Speaker 1: find us, and that's everywhere anywhere you get a podcast, 1162 01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:16,080 Speaker 1: you can find us. And if they let you leave 1163 01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:20,800 Speaker 1: feedback and stars and so forth, if they let you subscribe, 1164 01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:23,080 Speaker 1: we ask that that you do that because that that 1165 01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:25,880 Speaker 1: helps the show out. We're told. Likewise, if you want 1166 01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:27,680 Speaker 1: to find us really quickly, you can go to stuff 1167 01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:29,160 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. That will shoot you 1168 01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:31,880 Speaker 1: over to the I heart listing for this show, and hey, 1169 01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:35,080 Speaker 1: there's a little store um listing there. You can click 1170 01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:36,920 Speaker 1: on that that I'll take us to the t public 1171 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:38,800 Speaker 1: store for our show. You can get something with our 1172 01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:40,520 Speaker 1: logo on it, and get a face mask with our 1173 01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,240 Speaker 1: logo on it, or various monster shirts that we've put 1174 01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,320 Speaker 1: out over the years. Huge thanks as always to our 1175 01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:49,400 Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like 1176 01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,200 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this 1177 01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,720 Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest topic for the future, 1178 01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:56,440 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact. 1179 01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:06,320 Speaker 1: That's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to 1180 01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:08,840 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For 1181 01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,120 Speaker 1: more podcasts, my heart Radio. This is the I heart 1182 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,960 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your 1183 01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:19,640 Speaker 1: favorite shows.