Speaker 1: All right, we're back for another episode of the Friday Podcast,
Speaker 1: and tonight we have guests and other architecture guests. We
Speaker 1: have Keith Rebb with us. Keith is a long time
Speaker 1: associate for Core and Crenshaw. He recently completed his first
Speaker 1: you know, independent design. He partnered up with Riley Johns
Speaker 1: to do a makeover of Orlando's Winter Park project. So
Speaker 1: you may have seen Keith. He's been making a lot
Speaker 1: of appearances on the Golf Channel, becoming quite the TV celebrity.
Speaker 1: Uh so we're excited to have Keith on. Keith, thanks
Speaker 1: for coming on.
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks, Andy, I appreciate it, you know, thanks, thank
Speaker 2: you for the listeners to tune in. I'm sure a
Speaker 2: lot of people like, who is Keith Reb you know,
Speaker 2: and why are we why are we tuning in? But
Speaker 2: hopefully at the end we kind of who I am
Speaker 2: and you know, kind of what what what I've been doing?
Speaker 2: So thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, we're excited to talk architects. So, you know,
Speaker 1: I think you've got a very interesting story about how
Speaker 1: you got into architecture. You know, it was kind of
Speaker 1: an unconventional way, So why don't you tell the listeners.
Speaker 1: You know how you became a golf course architect.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it kind of first starts in Lincoln, Nebraska.
Speaker 2: You know, I was doing concrete work. You know, fifteen
Speaker 2: years ago. If you would have talked to me, I
Speaker 2: would be standing in concrete with a concrete loop in
Speaker 2: my hand, watching concrete come out of the back of
Speaker 2: the truck, you know. And you know, I kind of
Speaker 2: thought that, you know, this isn't exactly what I want
Speaker 2: to be doing. And I went and interviewed with Landscapes
Speaker 2: and Limited, a golf course development company in Lincoln, Nebraska.
Speaker 2: I got hired on the spot and packed everything up
Speaker 2: the next week and I moved to Agar, South Dakota,
Speaker 2: a town of fifty people, to live in a trailer
Speaker 2: down by the river. And you know, I mean that's
Speaker 2: that was the start. You know, I'm mean, making a
Speaker 2: big move, going to a place that I need have
Speaker 2: never been to. And you know, once I stepped on
Speaker 2: that golf course is a Grand Marsh design and and
Speaker 2: I looked out there and and you know, over the
Speaker 2: lake and everything there, I was like, man, this is
Speaker 2: you know, this is what I want to be doing.
Speaker 2: And you know, just you know, really fell in love
Speaker 2: with with being outside and and doing that, and so
Speaker 2: that I mean, that's kind of the first start of
Speaker 2: getting into golf. You know, I didn't you know, as
Speaker 2: a kid. I wasn't like, you know, aspiring to be
Speaker 2: an architect or anything like that at that point. But
Speaker 2: you know, it's like more and more just seeing different
Speaker 2: golf courses and being exposed to these different places and
Speaker 2: working with Bill and Ben. It just you can't help
Speaker 2: but just fall in love with, you know, this business.
Speaker 1: So I'm kind of kind of curious, you said, you
Speaker 1: so when you go on site, few typical we just
Speaker 1: live right on the golf course.
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, you try to find some of our
Speaker 2: close I mean, you know that that place when I
Speaker 2: was at a gard the only place that we could live.
Speaker 2: You know, you you have the people there set you
Speaker 2: up a place to live and who you live with.
Speaker 2: You know, it was an interesting kind of set up there.
Speaker 2: I got sent out there, and then I and that Lloyd,
Speaker 2: a guy that I worked with there that started at
Speaker 2: the same time, you know, probably about my dad's age,
Speaker 2: and and that's who my roommate was going to be.
Speaker 2: You know, so we're living in this trailer. You know.
Speaker 2: I mean it's kind of I go into a little
Speaker 2: funny story that I've told the Riley and Trevor of some.
Speaker 1: Of these guys.
Speaker 2: But you know, we we'd work all week, long, long hours,
Speaker 2: go home and I kicked back in a recliner and
Speaker 2: Lloyd would, you know, have a couple of bud lights
Speaker 2: and then fall asleep on the couch. But he'd always
Speaker 2: eat Ritz crackers. And it was just one funny one
Speaker 2: day We're sitting there and all of a sudden I
Speaker 2: look over always passed out, you know, sleep and and
Speaker 2: there's a mouse that came out of the couch and
Speaker 2: just eating crackers. You know, it's just it's just you know,
Speaker 2: these funny stories of these places that you're eating, you'll
Speaker 2: live at and and you know, just looking over the mouse,
Speaker 2: you know, eating crackers. And I don't know, funny stories
Speaker 2: maybe for some, but yeah, I uh, it resonates with me.
Speaker 1: I used to work for a tech startup and I
Speaker 1: had to travel from city to city and we stayed
Speaker 1: in just the worst places. And one of them we
Speaker 1: stayed we were staying in l a and we had
Speaker 1: this mocking bird and we were staying in like a
Speaker 1: double wide trailer, and this mocking bird would would come
Speaker 1: out at like midnight every night and just tweet like
Speaker 1: all night long. But one of my buddies he would
Speaker 1: go out and spray it with a hose at like
Speaker 1: three in the morning. It was awful. The funny funny
Speaker 1: things of you know, remote work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So, I mean that's you know, that's kind
Speaker 2: of one of those places you always try to find
Speaker 2: somewhere close just so it's convenient. So you moved to
Speaker 2: different places.
Speaker 1: So then and so you're kind of working along there
Speaker 1: and Phil and Ben are get their get their contract
Speaker 1: to do Colorado Golf Club and and you get to
Speaker 1: start working with them. Tell tell me a little bit
Speaker 1: about how you got looped in with Coren Crenshaw and
Speaker 1: that was, you know, one of their earlier projects. If
Speaker 1: I have my tea, Yeah, so, you know.
Speaker 2: I'm working with Landscapes Unlimited for about three years and
Speaker 2: then I get assigned to go to work at Colorido
Speaker 2: Golf Club. Landscapes Unlimited was the contractor for Friendshaw with
Speaker 2: the designer. So I was just kind of working, as
Speaker 2: you know, just a utility guy working on skid loaders,
Speaker 2: tractors or anything like that. And you know, I still
Speaker 2: remember it to this day, you know, meeting Phil and
Speaker 2: Ben on the fourth fair way out there, and you know,
Speaker 2: I was just picking out a little ravine and you know,
Speaker 2: I think at that time I didn't even know that
Speaker 2: I was maybe big and though possible bunker or something,
Speaker 2: and you know, Bill and Ben, you know, came up
Speaker 2: and then Bill was like, you know, yeah, why don't
Speaker 2: you just dig this out a little bit here, maybe
Speaker 2: kind of little here, but just have fun with it.
Speaker 2: I just thought, like that concept always stuck with me.
Speaker 2: His thinking of just have fun, and I guess just
Speaker 2: thinking of that and kind of the contractor mode have
Speaker 2: fun with it just didn't really I guess connect. And
Speaker 2: I just think, you know, when Bill mentioned that, you
Speaker 2: know that that was really a neat thing, you know,
Speaker 2: just go out and have fun and you know, and
Speaker 2: kind of what happened was, you know, as working and
Speaker 2: seeing the course evolved over time, a lot of the
Speaker 2: guys got called to go to Sooro and Wikipaw in
Speaker 2: Arizona to go work on that golf course. So they
Speaker 2: kind of got pulled to the next one. And there
Speaker 2: was a little nine hole, little part three course that
Speaker 2: that that needs to be built and and they kind
Speaker 2: of you know Bill, and then that gave me a chance.
Speaker 2: You know, that was the first first opportunity to actually
Speaker 2: shape something or build a green or build a bumper.
Speaker 2: And you know, I was able to work with Dave
Speaker 2: atlin h just a great guy, I me know, a
Speaker 2: great friend, a great mentor, I mean, someone that that
Speaker 2: it was so neat to work with Dave because he
Speaker 2: had so much knowledge and so much experience, and then
Speaker 2: me just being like a greenhorn, you know, coming in.
Speaker 2: But then yet both of us just working together and
Speaker 2: having a lot of fun, and he could teach me things.
Speaker 2: You know. I just remember one day when I was
Speaker 2: we were going to go look at a green and
Speaker 2: and and I kind of forgot to move the dozer,
Speaker 2: you know, so we walked back at the tea and
Speaker 2: then look at this green. But then I parked the
Speaker 2: dozer right in the front of the green. You know,
Speaker 2: he just like Keith, you know, you're showing your horns,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, you're showing your greenhorns, you know.
Speaker 2: And it was just, you know, it's just neat working
Speaker 2: with Dave. And we had a lot of fun. And
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people really enjoy that. That's
Speaker 2: that's part three golf, part free course of Colorado Golf Club.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That's uh. I'm hoping I saw there they
Speaker 1: got the mid am in a few years, so fingers crossed,
Speaker 1: I'll I'll get out there to play and that if
Speaker 1: not sooner. But yeah, I've heard nothing but great things
Speaker 1: about uh Colorado Golf Club. And then, uh, you've got
Speaker 1: to you kind of are You're a big fan of
Speaker 1: the short course, right, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, I I am, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not I'm not the greatest golfer either,
Speaker 2: you know, So I mean I enjoy kind of getting
Speaker 2: out there learning the game and and not getting beat up,
Speaker 2: and and and and having fun. And I think that's
Speaker 2: I think that's a lot of things that we need
Speaker 2: to get back to. It's just having fun, you know,
Speaker 2: getting getting around with a couple of buddies, you know'll
Speaker 2: just shoot some shots and match play and you know,
Speaker 2: just enjoy the game the way it should be played.
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's that's that's.
Speaker 2: I just hope we get back to the roots, you know,
Speaker 2: And it looks like it's slowly getting that way. With
Speaker 2: a lot of hor it seems like more courses are
Speaker 2: you know, adding a short course, you know, and it's
Speaker 2: it's exciting to see that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a great bootprint is you know, taking courses,
Speaker 1: making them less holes and taking out some of the
Speaker 1: bad holes, making like things like putting courses or like
Speaker 1: little three hole courses that somebody can go out and
Speaker 1: play and play three holes in forty five minutes.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things golf can do is
Speaker 1: create more ways for people to to do it quickly
Speaker 1: because it's you know, and in today's day and age,
Speaker 1: I think it really needs to compete. Have petitive options
Speaker 1: for like somebody's workout time. You know, people carve out
Speaker 1: an hour for working out, Like why can't we figure
Speaker 1: out a way that's more fun than you know, hitting
Speaker 1: a bucket range boss for an hour, you know, whether
Speaker 1: it be putting courses, short courses, you know, short loops.
Speaker 2: So I'm on board with that, exactly, I am one
Speaker 2: hundred percent. So I guess, you know, kind of to
Speaker 2: go back to a little bit of the you know,
Speaker 2: so after Colorado of off Club, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: still working for landscapes and limited it's a little bit
Speaker 2: later in the few years down the road, I get
Speaker 2: a call, you know, to to come out to sugar
Speaker 2: Loaf Mountain in Claremont, Florida to be the first official
Speaker 2: you know project to work for court Friendshaw. So, you know,
Speaker 2: getting that phone call, I'm like, you know, I'm in Colorado,
Speaker 2: it's snowing. I'll be in Florida, you know the next day.
Speaker 2: So that that was the you know, that was the
Speaker 2: first first, the official court Friend Shop project that I
Speaker 2: worked on. You know, the others were with with landscapes.
Speaker 1: So sugar Loave's got kind of an interesting story. It's
Speaker 1: like one of those you know, golf courses that has
Speaker 1: the sad end. So tell us, tell us a little
Speaker 1: about sugar Loaf then you know the course for those
Speaker 1: that you know don't know about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Sugarloaf Mountain is the second highest point
Speaker 2: is Florida. It's on sugar stands. It's it's a really
Speaker 2: neat site. You really don't feel like you're at you know,
Speaker 2: you don't feel like you're in Florida when you're on
Speaker 2: that site, you know. I mean it was just it
Speaker 2: was right at two thousand and eight, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: the bubble was bursting it was going to be real
Speaker 2: estate driven. You know, it was probably not you know,
Speaker 2: really didn't get out there in the media, didn't get
Speaker 2: the exposure that it needed to. You know, it struggled,
Speaker 2: and then it finally uh went back to nature. You know.
Speaker 2: I mean, you go back there right now. I went
Speaker 2: back there a couple of years ago. Together. There's still
Speaker 2: bunker rakes and old bunkers, and you know it's basically
Speaker 2: you know, tuble weeds and and the nettle grass, and
Speaker 2: it's it's a shame. It's it's a great sight. You know.
Speaker 2: I would love someday for someone to figure out a
Speaker 2: way to disconnect the real estate with it and be
Speaker 2: able to bring that course back to life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can only imagine. I get sad when I
Speaker 1: read about golf course clothings. But like, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: how sad were you when you heard of the news
Speaker 1: that it was kind of shuting down when like, you know,
Speaker 1: you spent like months of your life, you know, pouring
Speaker 1: sweat into it.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know it does it doesn't bother you
Speaker 2: a little bit, you know. I mean all these guys
Speaker 2: with four printshout that I work with, you know, they
Speaker 2: put their hearts into the building the best golf they
Speaker 2: can and and Bill and Ben and and everyone. You know,
Speaker 2: they they put it, they put themselves into it, they
Speaker 2: put their heart into it, and it's defing worse than
Speaker 2: seeing it. Just you know, go away. You know it's done,
Speaker 2: it's closed down, the doors are shut. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: it's still kind of weird. You go out there to
Speaker 2: drive by the golf course and they still have the
Speaker 2: old sign up, like you know, Bill and Ben's first
Speaker 2: golf course in Florida. You know, I mean it's it's uh,
Speaker 2: it's tough. I mean, you know, maybe someone will go
Speaker 2: out and take a look and realize the potential is
Speaker 2: sight and you know, bring them back out there.
Speaker 1: So it's uh fingers crossed. That's why. You know, as
Speaker 1: long as it doesn't turn into houses, it's got.
Speaker 2: A chance, right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So I think you know, obviously Core and Crenshaw, since
Speaker 1: you know, they are become the primo guys and golf
Speaker 1: course design and are kind of leading this charge of
Speaker 1: the you know Golden age, like kind of the new
Speaker 1: Golden age of architecture with Dope and Bill Hans and all,
Speaker 1: you know, these young off and comers, you know, having
Speaker 1: worked with him for like ten plus years. Now, what's
Speaker 1: something that you've noticed that they do so well that like,
Speaker 1: you know that the common person might overlook, and you
Speaker 1: know or even the you know, sharpest of architecture geeks
Speaker 1: would overlook that they do just so well with their sites.
Speaker 1: And why you know these all these sites turn out
Speaker 1: such big successes.
Speaker 2: I mean I would say, is uh. I mean probably
Speaker 2: one thing. You know, there's no ego there, the egos
Speaker 2: aren't there. They know how to bring the best potential
Speaker 2: out of the people that they're working with, but also
Speaker 2: the site. You know, Bill is the best at like
Speaker 2: you know, bringing the potential out of the people that
Speaker 2: he's around. You know, I mean everyone's got, you know,
Speaker 2: a talent or something to bring to to a site,
Speaker 2: and if you kind of limit the input or the
Speaker 2: people that's involved, you tend to lose the potential to site.
Speaker 2: And I think that's one thing that Bill and Ben
Speaker 2: and a lot of these other guys know how to
Speaker 2: bring the right people and talented people together and the
Speaker 2: team together too to really bring the project to you know,
Speaker 2: bring out the again potential of the projects.
Speaker 1: So with the you know, the you know kind of
Speaker 1: team like what's typically a you know, a build team,
Speaker 1: look like on a daily basis that at a site.
Speaker 1: So like you're working on the new course at Big
Speaker 1: Seater Lodge now, like you know what what type of
Speaker 1: you know, what's the side of the team that you
Speaker 1: guys usually have out there.
Speaker 2: I mean right now we've got you know, Jimbo right,
Speaker 2: great shafer, awesome shaper Bill with Phil and Ben forever,
Speaker 2: very talented guy you know out here, and you got
Speaker 2: Jeff Bradley you know aka bunker Do up out here
Speaker 2: doing the bunkers, you know what I mean? So you
Speaker 2: have different specialists you know that that do that that
Speaker 2: are on the site. You know a lot of times
Speaker 2: it's three four four guys. It's just you know, different
Speaker 2: sites have different things, you know, Like when I was
Speaker 2: out in Tasmania, it was just Dave Axton and myself
Speaker 2: and and then we uh, you know toss the on
Speaker 2: you know, the guys locally there on how to you
Speaker 2: know the build stuff and and and finish things.
Speaker 1: So mm hmm, what would you say, is you know
Speaker 1: your favorite site that you've worked on? Is it you know,
Speaker 1: Winter Park or was it one of the core crunch Off.
Speaker 2: Sites you know, I get I get that quote question
Speaker 2: quite a bit. They lost farm Tasmania, Barnbougle to working
Speaker 2: at Cava Cliffs, you know, stream Songs, Old Town, you know, Yokohama,
Speaker 2: a country club in Japan. You know, I mean they
Speaker 2: all have their own little characters to them. I mean
Speaker 2: it's it's hard to pick one out that would say
Speaker 2: would be the best. But you know, I mean Tasmania
Speaker 2: was just you know, a really neat site, all sand
Speaker 2: and working with the owners there was just a really cool,
Speaker 2: cool place.
Speaker 1: So h So you know, it's listed you as a shaper,
Speaker 1: so for you know, just the maybe novice architecture fans,
Speaker 1: could you walk through you know, like what you know
Speaker 1: a shaper does? And you know how how you know,
Speaker 1: how do you get good at shaping?
Speaker 2: You know? I mean I guess you know how you
Speaker 2: get good a shaping as I think you kind of
Speaker 2: start from, you know, a shovel, You start from, you know,
Speaker 2: shoveling things. You kind of learn how to build things,
Speaker 2: you know, by hand, and then you kind of work
Speaker 2: your way up. You know, you get more opportunities to
Speaker 2: get on different pieces of equipment, like maybe a skid
Speaker 2: loader or a miniac and then an estivator and then
Speaker 2: the dozor you know, it just it takes a lot
Speaker 2: of patience. You know, it's it's you know what we
Speaker 2: do is you know, we're normally shaping bunkers or fair
Speaker 2: ways or greens. And it's just I don't know, it's
Speaker 2: it's what I look forward to. It's like my office
Speaker 2: each day. You know, I hop in a dozer and
Speaker 2: and I can move earth and and be creative. And
Speaker 2: you know that's one thing that then, which is so
Speaker 2: neat out here, that is they don't put you in
Speaker 2: a box of like here's exactly you know, this is
Speaker 2: exactly what you need to build, here's a plan. You
Speaker 2: got to hit these grades. You know, they're like, you know,
Speaker 2: this is what we're kind of looking at. You know,
Speaker 2: but if you but if you see something or something happened,
Speaker 2: run with it. You know, they never put you in
Speaker 2: a situation where they're trying to put you in a box.
Speaker 2: They give you a lot of creative freedom out there.
Speaker 2: And I mean that's what just makes it so much
Speaker 2: fun is that you know, each day out there you're
Speaker 2: doing something a little different and you're just being able
Speaker 2: to have fun and not worrying about making a mistake
Speaker 2: or having Bill and Ben or someone come out and say,
Speaker 2: you know, man, that's you know, what did you use it?
Speaker 2: You're messed up or something like that. They would never
Speaker 2: do that. And sometimes if if a mistake happens or
Speaker 2: something like that, it's it's it ends up being something
Speaker 2: that's even better than what anyone would have thought would happen.
Speaker 2: So it's it's really neat working with Bill and Ben
Speaker 2: and they really give you that creative freedom and you
Speaker 2: never have to worry about making a mistake out that's
Speaker 2: that's awesome.
Speaker 1: It's the it's usually the way people do their best
Speaker 1: work is when they have the freedom and know that
Speaker 1: you know, if I do something and I believe that,
Speaker 1: you know, they're going to back me out. But it's
Speaker 1: I mean, that's cool. What's your favorite kind of feature
Speaker 1: to build? You know, whether it's not necessarily while you're
Speaker 1: building it, but like, what do you what do you
Speaker 1: think is kind of like the coolest feature to put
Speaker 1: on a golf course?
Speaker 2: I guess you know features I would say, you know,
Speaker 2: like a picker slope or something like that. You know,
Speaker 2: if there's a certain slope that it's someone's flazer going
Speaker 2: to reward it and then they might not know, like,
Speaker 2: hey there's a little slot here in my fifteth year
Speaker 2: that the ball might run. You know, that's just one
Speaker 2: thing that Bill. You know, you see the influences that.
Speaker 1: Your favorite Golden Age architects. Obviously we we like Golden
Speaker 1: Age architects, but the Frida Egg would love to hear
Speaker 1: kind of in your studying, you know who kind of
Speaker 1: stands out in your mind.
Speaker 2: I mean I would definitely say one hundred Perry Maxwell,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean having the opportunity to work at
Speaker 2: Old Town and seeing how he laid that golf course
Speaker 2: on the land and the greens and you know, the
Speaker 2: little Maxwell role and things like that that he has
Speaker 2: in those dreams. I mean, you know what I mean
Speaker 2: for me, you know, not really coming up being like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna be an architect.
Speaker 2: You know, Perry Maxwell was a banker, fell in love
Speaker 2: with the game, and then let that love kind of
Speaker 2: transition into act actually becoming an architect. So I kind of,
Speaker 2: you know, I kind of relate to that, you know,
Speaker 2: and it just I mean, Old Town is just a
Speaker 2: special place I mean you get a chance to get
Speaker 2: out there and look at that, you see the influences
Speaker 2: that that had on Bill Bill's design, which is really
Speaker 2: neat to to kind of come full circle to be
Speaker 2: on that side to say, now I kind of get
Speaker 2: why Bill builds a certain contour or or maybe this
Speaker 2: certain type of drain. So that that I think definitely, uh,
Speaker 2: Harry Maxwell, and I look forward to as I have
Speaker 2: time off to go look at more of his his courses.
Speaker 1: Yeah what what what his courses there highest on your
Speaker 1: kind of bucket list to see?
Speaker 2: I mean Verry Prairie Dunes. I mean you can't you know,
Speaker 2: you Hutch in Kansas know that or worked out there
Speaker 2: a lot, and that was what was cool about old
Speaker 2: And again I'm working with Dave Exlin again, you know
Speaker 2: him and I are working on that, you know, as
Speaker 2: a team. So yeah, I mean just you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, you just you get this architecture. You start,
Speaker 2: like you said, when you first get out there and
Speaker 2: you start first getting that little taste of what it is,
Speaker 2: and you kind of get to see it on the
Speaker 2: ground and you see that and it gets you and
Speaker 2: you want to learn more and you want to go
Speaker 2: search out different golf courses. And I mean that's the
Speaker 2: biggest thing for me, is like, you know, coming from
Speaker 2: more of the construction side of things, there's more that
Speaker 2: I look forward to seeing more of these golf courses
Speaker 2: because I can look at it a way of like, Okay,
Speaker 2: how do you build that? You know, not just how
Speaker 2: is it design? But then how can I actually build that?
Speaker 2: And what equipment would I need to build something? Neat
Speaker 2: like that? So I think kind of coming from it
Speaker 2: from a different angle, I mean for me, it's that's
Speaker 2: that's what I look forward to, is it is searching
Speaker 2: out more of these golf courses and in learning more.
Speaker 2: I mean I'm always learning.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that everybody is always learning. With architectures,
Speaker 1: h There's there's infinite cool little courses to see. I
Speaker 1: mean I feel like I add ten courses I want
Speaker 1: to go to every day, and it's you know the
Speaker 1: tough part about it. Hopefully in a lifetime you'll get
Speaker 1: to see all of them, but very unlikely that's going
Speaker 1: to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you know, in terms of you know, if you
Speaker 1: were going to describe what your dream project to work
Speaker 1: on would be, you know, what what what type of
Speaker 1: things would you know be the five characteristics that you'd say,
Speaker 1: you know, this is the ideal project and situation I'd
Speaker 1: want to build my own course on.
Speaker 2: Well. I mean, I think the first you start with team.
Speaker 2: You know a bunch of guys that you know, all
Speaker 2: get along. You know, they they don't have egos, you know,
Speaker 2: they they like to collaborate and and just have fun,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, I think the biggest thing is
Speaker 2: when you see these golf courses being built and everyone's
Speaker 2: having fun. I think it kind of gets in the
Speaker 2: DNA of that golf course and and it shows like,
Speaker 2: you know, these guys really enjoyed being here and they
Speaker 2: have fun building the soft course. And I think that's
Speaker 2: the biggest thing is is you know, if you have
Speaker 2: the team of guys you know like Riley Trevor, you know,
Speaker 2: Andrew Littlefield, you know, all these different I mean Blake,
Speaker 2: I mean you could go on and on of these
Speaker 2: guys that just love what they do. They're very creative,
Speaker 2: but they don't let egos get in the way. You know,
Speaker 2: there might be a thing where and also put Day there.
Speaker 2: I gotta put Day backs on of course because he's
Speaker 2: just no ego, greatest guy to work with, and it's
Speaker 2: just where you can say, hey, I'm stuck here, why
Speaker 2: don't you come over here and work on this and
Speaker 2: and kind of see what you can do, you know,
Speaker 2: And I think that's that's what makes it so much fun,
Speaker 2: is when you know each person can kind of put
Speaker 2: their layer creativity on a site. And that's what I
Speaker 2: look forward to. So my dream site would be working
Speaker 2: with a bunch of people that love love the game
Speaker 2: of golf, love architecture, no egos, and and want to
Speaker 2: have fun and and build you know, cool golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think everybody's best.
Speaker 2: Work and it and on top of that sand site,
Speaker 2: sand site on the coast, so you kind of add
Speaker 2: the most maybe in Tasmania or somewhere you know, so
Speaker 2: you know, you kind of add some of those things
Speaker 2: into it. But it just for me is just the
Speaker 2: group of guys you have together. If it's a hard,
Speaker 2: rocky site, you still got guys that are enjoying it
Speaker 2: and having fun and like to get along and build google.
Speaker 2: I mean, if it's a rocky site or if it's
Speaker 2: a sand site, it's about it's about the team.
Speaker 1: So MH. It's I mean, how much harder is it
Speaker 1: to shape stuff with the rocky site? I mean obviously
Speaker 1: stand I you know, you can see how you can
Speaker 1: just move it to every way you want it to move.
Speaker 1: But with rocky site, you know what, what kind of
Speaker 1: do you have different strategies? Like what do you have
Speaker 1: to do to you know, kind of get it into
Speaker 1: an ideal, you know, the way you want it.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, first you're looking at you know,
Speaker 2: just the cost. I mean you're looking at the equipment,
Speaker 2: the amount of equipment and heavy equipment you have to
Speaker 2: have on a site to move the rock or we'll
Speaker 2: cut through the rock, or if you have to blast.
Speaker 2: You know, then you think about how you get the
Speaker 2: irrigation took around. I mean, there's so many things that
Speaker 2: you know, become more of expense. You know.
Speaker 1: It's just that it sounds like just don't build on
Speaker 1: a rocky site.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it also it depends on how I
Speaker 2: get what kind of rock.
Speaker 1: I mean like out.
Speaker 2: Here at the ridge course out here, you know in Branson,
Speaker 2: it's rocky soil, but it breaks up pretty easily. I
Speaker 2: mean you can rip it and kind of break it up,
Speaker 2: and we're kind of on ridges, so we don't really
Speaker 2: get into the heavy rock. So I mean, but but
Speaker 2: if it's a site you're you know, you're you're blasting
Speaker 2: a way, then it's kind of like you got to
Speaker 2: kind of take that in consideration. Is this is this
Speaker 2: worth the cost? You know? I mean, are we just
Speaker 2: wasting someone's money here to get a couple of good
Speaker 2: holes and then the rest are just mediocre? I mean
Speaker 2: that's what you always got to look at on a site.
Speaker 2: What the potential of the full side is not just
Speaker 2: to have one great signature hole and then walk away
Speaker 2: and the rest are like mediocre. So, you know, it's
Speaker 2: just I think I think the biggest thing is just
Speaker 2: really gonna think about the money you're spending on your client,
Speaker 2: you know, and making sure that you know you can
Speaker 2: get the full potential out of a site and not
Speaker 2: waste their money. Huh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it makes a lot of sense. It's, uh,
Speaker 1: you have to have eighteen good holes. If you want
Speaker 1: to have a great course, they have to you have
Speaker 1: to have eighteen great holes, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean those.
Speaker 1: Are the courses that stand out, and are you know,
Speaker 1: at the top of the list.
Speaker 2: You know, I think you know, Bill always explained it, like,
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's kind of like a roller coaster,
Speaker 2: you know, not every hole can always be at the
Speaker 2: very top, you know, and you're going down as a
Speaker 2: great you know, you've got to have you know, connecting
Speaker 2: holes and stuff like that, and you've got to have
Speaker 2: a good balance, you know. And and it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: so many sites are just sacrifice for or to We're
Speaker 2: going to get this one hole out here, and then
Speaker 2: the rest of the golf course isn't gonna isn't gonna fit,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean I think Cabot Cliss is you know,
Speaker 2: the perfect example of that. I mean, you know, Bill
Speaker 2: has this amazing sight that you know, be Ben Callender
Speaker 2: you know, had out there, and you know, Bill's like,
Speaker 2: you know, you really need to get you know a
Speaker 2: little bit more properly over here, and you really need
Speaker 2: to get this, you know. You know, and when a
Speaker 2: lot of times a lot of people would say, oh,
Speaker 2: well this is good enough. We'll do this and we'll
Speaker 2: just build the rest of these holes, you know up
Speaker 2: here in the trees. But we'll have a couple holes
Speaker 2: out here that you know, you can see the ocean front.
Speaker 2: So I think that's you know, a really neat thing
Speaker 2: that Bill you know, won't just settle for a couple
Speaker 2: of good foals, that he wants to make sure that
Speaker 2: if he's going to be there, that again he can
Speaker 2: get the full potential out of the site, you know,
Speaker 2: for that client.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and they've no arguing the work they've
Speaker 1: been doing. Like I mean, it's so many, so many
Speaker 1: great golf courses. It's cool to see and so you know,
Speaker 1: let's let's switch gears and move more into you and
Speaker 1: Riley's work at winter Park. So you know, the training
Speaker 1: wheels were off. Now you were out on your own.
Speaker 1: You got your name on the project. So for those
Speaker 1: of listeners that aren't familiar, I'll put some videos in
Speaker 1: the in the podcast page that the Golf Channel has
Speaker 1: done a great job with. But the background of Winter
Speaker 1: Park is, you know, it was a kind of overgrown
Speaker 1: municipal golf course that the community kind of banded and
Speaker 1: said we want something better. So you know, it's keys.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you can color it in more. But I'd
Speaker 1: love to hear about how you guys got involved, how
Speaker 1: you you know, on the project, and then we can
Speaker 1: talk more about you know, the project as a whole.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. So I guess you just I guess you
Speaker 2: got to kind of start at square one. You know,
Speaker 2: you got you got residents there like Matt Haggerty and
Speaker 2: Gary Deal and you know, they they they saw their
Speaker 2: golf course there and you know, they loved it, but
Speaker 2: they they saw the potential. They said, hey, we we
Speaker 2: could be we can be better. So you know, what
Speaker 2: do these guys do. They they put together a cast
Speaker 2: force that then reported to the governor, I mean the
Speaker 2: mayor there to kind of give him input like, hey,
Speaker 2: this is what we're looking at. You know, here's you know,
Speaker 2: Matt Haggerty works at the golf channels, you know a
Speaker 2: lot of great golf courses. You know, Gary's been in
Speaker 2: the field too, so they have, you know, their expertise
Speaker 2: and their input, and they brought that to to the mayor,
Speaker 2: you know, to say, hey, like I really think we
Speaker 2: could be better. So they start task force. They went
Speaker 2: to the task force and they kind of dust deeper
Speaker 2: into the golf course and realized that there's a lot
Speaker 2: more work to be done. You know, it's this isn't
Speaker 2: just a you know, do a couple of greens and
Speaker 2: and everything's going to be great. You know, the golf
Speaker 2: course greens had roots growing in them, you know, so
Speaker 2: they're mowing over roots. You know, the the graph is mutated,
Speaker 2: the course is stashed over so it doesn't drain properly.
Speaker 2: So you know, so they went to the mayor, they
Speaker 2: went to the task force. They put out an RFP
Speaker 2: I put together a team with Riley and and and
Speaker 2: Don Halfney to to put together a team that could
Speaker 2: get the job done in the timeframe that they needed
Speaker 2: it done. So, you know, when they were looking at us,
Speaker 2: they they saw that we would be on site and
Speaker 2: every day, and they saw a really big benefit that
Speaker 2: So that's that's awesome.
Speaker 1: So you know, you go down there, how long did
Speaker 1: the project take and kind of you know, walk us
Speaker 1: through a little bit of you know, kind of your vision,
Speaker 1: uh for the golf course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was, uh, you know, three of us
Speaker 2: out there. So you know, Riley, myself and Blake Coone
Speaker 2: and you know, we you know, three guys out there,
Speaker 2: you know, out there shaping building bunkers, you know, fairways
Speaker 2: and everything. So it was it was three months, three
Speaker 2: guys and a d three you know, that's that's what
Speaker 2: we kind of we always kind of laughed a little
Speaker 2: because the D three doser is you know, we ordered
Speaker 2: a D five, but we get a D three. You know,
Speaker 2: it's very small doser compared to what we needed to
Speaker 2: get the job done. You know, so it you know,
Speaker 2: it was, uh, it was exciting to work with with,
Speaker 2: you know, just like minded people that were out there
Speaker 2: to to get the best out of the golf course.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was I'm trying to think of how
Speaker 2: to really explain it, but I mean it's just you
Speaker 2: know it, but I don't know really how to Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't really know together.
Speaker 1: I mean I imagine it's you know, it's a it's
Speaker 1: a crowning achievements. You know, your first golf course with
Speaker 1: your name. It's got to be something that's kind of crazy.
Speaker 1: It's hard to you know process. I'm sure when you
Speaker 1: think back to where you're peign concrete.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I mean you know to think that, you know,
Speaker 2: you you take all those experiences you have and in
Speaker 2: all these different sites that you worked on and you
Speaker 2: get a chance to bring all your experiences that you
Speaker 2: have to municipal golf course. You know, we were coming
Speaker 2: off of like Habo cliffs. You know, these are top
Speaker 2: one hundred golf courses in the world that we're working on,
Speaker 2: and we get to bring the experience that we have
Speaker 2: to to municipal golf course, you know, for a community
Speaker 2: in Winter Park, Florida. I mean that's you know that
Speaker 2: that was a neat opportunity to bring that experience and
Speaker 2: and that was you know, yeah, I mean I guess
Speaker 2: it's you kind of sit back and you kind of
Speaker 2: look at that like, you know, wow, you know, to
Speaker 2: bring to to to give back in a lot of
Speaker 2: ways to a game that's you know, given so much
Speaker 2: to me, to give back to a community where you know,
Speaker 2: when we're out there first starting the project, you know,
Speaker 2: we're watching you know, young, old, you know, blue collar,
Speaker 2: white collar, no collar, you know, out there golfing. You know,
Speaker 2: this is this is the roots of community golf. And
Speaker 2: it's like, we can't mess this up. Yeah, we had
Speaker 2: the pressure. We had the pressure on us, and then
Speaker 2: we also had you know, the golf channel, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean the golf channels right there. You know, Matt Hagerty,
Speaker 2: you know, you got Matt Janella, you got these guys
Speaker 2: that this is their home course. You know, these guys
Speaker 2: drive by this course every day, and you know you
Speaker 2: can't you can't mess this up, you know, and and
Speaker 2: you can't come out here and do everything that you've
Speaker 2: always wanted to bill on every golf course. And you
Speaker 2: got to make it, you know, playable, and it's got
Speaker 2: to be affordable and and you know, there's so many
Speaker 2: things that go into your mind when you're when you're
Speaker 2: starting a project. You know, when you get to the end,
Speaker 2: you're like, did did we achieve our goal? And you know,
Speaker 2: I really think we we we achieved the goal. When
Speaker 2: you know you're sitting in the clubhouse and guys are
Speaker 2: laughing and you're cheering, and you know they're just having
Speaker 2: a blast out there playing fun golf. And they're like,
Speaker 2: you see me carry you know, the trees on number
Speaker 2: six to to carry the green? Or can you believe
Speaker 2: that bunker shot? Or you know, those type of things.
Speaker 2: Are the guys that come into the clubhouse and they're like,
Speaker 2: we just played nine, but we want to go out
Speaker 2: and play another nine. You know, that's that that's or
Speaker 2: or the or the kid that it's his first first
Speaker 2: round of golf. You know, a dad and his son,
Speaker 2: you know, and the and the and the kids keen
Speaker 2: off off the deck with the driver, you know, and
Speaker 2: and he hits it out there about fifty yards, you know,
Speaker 2: to see that, you know, yeah, after you work so
Speaker 2: hard to achieve what you know, to grow the game.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's I mean, the I think it's a
Speaker 1: it's sort of I'm excited. I'm gonna get to go
Speaker 1: down there and play in January and you know, I'll
Speaker 1: put a hole right up. But you know, from everything
Speaker 1: I've seen in the pictures you've sent me before and after,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a total transformation, and I think you know,
Speaker 1: it serves as kind of a blueprint for you know,
Speaker 1: community golf and municipalities and you know what you can
Speaker 1: do with you know, it's relatively lean budget. But you know,
Speaker 1: everybody wants to go with a you know, an established name,
Speaker 1: but a lot of times the best way to go
Speaker 1: is to go with the the you know, up and
Speaker 1: coming you know, people that are passionate and that have
Speaker 1: all this. You know, you have worlds of experience and
Speaker 1: you know, have learned from the best in the business,
Speaker 1: and giving somebody a shot is so you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's they're gonna you know, like they're going to work
Speaker 1: their you know, tails off for the project. And I
Speaker 1: think that's the cool thing about the whole project was that,
Speaker 1: you know, with it with the big names and the
Speaker 1: golf channel involved, that you and Riley and Blake got
Speaker 1: you know, you got to shine when I'm sure you
Speaker 1: were up against some bigger name people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I mean it was. It's it's very
Speaker 2: humbling too to think that, you know that the city
Speaker 2: put full trust in us. You know, how many how
Speaker 2: many opportunities where someone gives you that chance, you know,
Speaker 2: so we we trust you. You know that the city
Speaker 2: never said, you know, well, this is the way we
Speaker 2: do it. You know, they you know, the leader, you know,
Speaker 2: with the mayor, Steve Leary. I mean you can't I
Speaker 2: can't say enough about that leadership. And in water Park.
Speaker 2: If more governments, in local governments ran like winter Park,
Speaker 2: I mean we'd be we'd be in a whole lot
Speaker 2: of better place in this country because with his leadership,
Speaker 2: is is what made that golf course. They put the
Speaker 2: trust in us, They they gave us the resources that
Speaker 2: we needed to be successful, and you know we uh,
Speaker 2: I really think we delivered for them. And you know
Speaker 2: it's just now. That's the biggest thing is someone puts
Speaker 2: a trust in us. We're you know, we're gonna we're
Speaker 2: going to try our best to deliver every time for
Speaker 2: for a client, and you know, that's it's it's it's
Speaker 2: just a really neat story and how it all went down.
Speaker 2: And and I really think that if it's it's kind
Speaker 2: of a blueprint that I hope a lot of unique
Speaker 2: golf courses can can can maybe look to call up
Speaker 2: when a part you know, hey, we have this golf course.
Speaker 2: You know, we're losing money. It's it's it's not going well.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think we're gonna have to sell the
Speaker 2: thing and it's going to turn into a parking lot
Speaker 2: or or condos. What what? What? What did you guys
Speaker 2: do here at winn a part? And maybe it might
Speaker 2: save a lot of these golf courses where you know,
Speaker 2: this is where kids learn how to play golf, you know,
Speaker 2: and this is how we're going to grow the game.
Speaker 2: So I just hope that a lot of people look
Speaker 2: to win a park and can contact you know, the
Speaker 2: task force in the mayor and get the information and
Speaker 2: kind of get that blueprint, and you know, hopefully you know,
Speaker 2: if it's us or someone else, you know, it's if
Speaker 2: it's it's just so mini golf can win and grow.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's a it's a core part.
Speaker 1: I grew up playing. I grew up and learned the
Speaker 1: game on a municipal course. So you know, I ride
Speaker 1: my bike to the golf course with my golf bag
Speaker 1: and just you know, in the summers and spend all
Speaker 1: day there. So you know, having a cool place to
Speaker 1: play would be you know, where you have to hit
Speaker 1: shots and you learn strategy versus you know, the state
Speaker 1: of most MENI golf courses is just you know, rip
Speaker 1: it and and and chip it. So that I want
Speaker 1: to get some Twitter questions. We got a couple here.
Speaker 1: One of them is from a buddy Ors Trevor. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: trev So he wants to know what advice you have
Speaker 1: for young people trying to learn your craft.
Speaker 2: You know, I would say, I mean, in my case,
Speaker 2: you know, I saw a really big benefit and working
Speaker 2: for a contractor, like a golf course contractor, you know,
Speaker 2: the chance to kind of get some experience, you know, work,
Speaker 2: you know, work a summer for for a golf course
Speaker 2: or local golf course, you know, doing grounds work or
Speaker 2: or go work for a golf course development company for
Speaker 2: a summer, you know, get get experienced. I would say,
Speaker 2: you know, you just you know, take ownership and work
Speaker 2: hard and don't lean on a shovel, don't don't sit
Speaker 2: down in the bun you know, just just work hard.
Speaker 2: And the people that are you know, in place to
Speaker 2: the leadership will notice that effort and then they might say, hey,
Speaker 2: you know, why don't you hop on this excavator or
Speaker 2: why don't you say I'm why don't you coming on
Speaker 2: Saturday on your day off, I'm gonna teach you how
Speaker 2: to run a del you know. I mean, there's more
Speaker 2: of affluence for someone to give you that chance to
Speaker 2: learn another craft. If you're working hard, you know, and
Speaker 2: you're showing that effort, people will make the effort to
Speaker 2: teach you. And I mean that's the biggest thing for
Speaker 2: me is that you know, I'd love to you know,
Speaker 2: teach guys how to you know, I've had guys teach me.
Speaker 2: You know, I want to be here if if there's
Speaker 2: people out there that like gave as from the thing,
Speaker 2: that give me the chance to to get on a
Speaker 2: piece of equipment or be creative and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of people that have been helped to have given me
Speaker 2: that chance. And you know, I'd love to give that
Speaker 2: chance to anyone that on different projects, if people want
Speaker 2: to come out and and work hard. And so I think,
Speaker 2: you know, first is you know, see if this is
Speaker 2: right for you. I mean, this isn't right for everyone,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, you know, we're traveling and I'm
Speaker 2: I'm at home, you know, sometimes maybe eighty days a year.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm on the road, you know, away from
Speaker 2: my wife. And you know, I mean, I'm I'm very
Speaker 2: lucky that I have a wife that supports you fully
Speaker 2: and and and loves your traps. But sometimes it's not
Speaker 2: it's not exactly for everyone, you know. I mean, we're
Speaker 2: it's kind of a funny business where we're always working
Speaker 2: ourselves into unemployment. We just finish a project and the
Speaker 2: lune employee, you know. I mean, so it's you know,
Speaker 2: I would just say, have a positive attitude, take ownership
Speaker 2: about whatever you're doing, and people will give you the
Speaker 2: chance to move up. And and I think that's my
Speaker 2: opinion on my best advice for for how to to learn.
Speaker 1: M It's it's a lot like you know, work hard
Speaker 1: and try and try and be there and be ready.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's just there. There there's no shortcuts, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean when when you try to take a short cut,
Speaker 2: you're going to get found out. I mean, so yeah,
Speaker 2: it's definitely. Ah, it is a fun business. It's very rewarding,
Speaker 2: but it does have its sacrifices. You know, you have
Speaker 2: to realize that you there's a lot of uncertainty if
Speaker 2: you're looking for a plan on whether it's going to
Speaker 2: be the next day or the next month. You know,
Speaker 2: I don't know what what next next project I'm going
Speaker 2: to end up when I'm after this project, you know,
Speaker 2: and so you never know. So yeah, when you even
Speaker 2: accept the uncertainty, if your person that can do that,
Speaker 2: then this might be the right business.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's to probably be good for you know,
Speaker 1: anybody that kind of can happy to float, you know.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So we got one from Andy Roderick, who you know,
Speaker 1: he's qualified for the US four ball in the spring,
Speaker 1: so it looks like he's going down to play Dormy
Speaker 1: Club while he's down there, so you know, he wants
Speaker 1: to kind of know what what he can expect from
Speaker 1: Dormy Club. And you know you having worked on it,
Speaker 1: you know, I played it. I got to played. I
Speaker 1: really it's a great golf course. Would love to hear
Speaker 1: your experience out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah you know, I mean you no, I finished up
Speaker 2: at cir Mountain and then I got sent out there
Speaker 2: for a little while. I was only there for a
Speaker 2: short time. It's kind of was it was kind of
Speaker 2: in the construction phase where you could only work on
Speaker 2: thirty two acres at a time, so you're only building like,
Speaker 2: you know, three holes at the time, then draft those
Speaker 2: and then you can move on to the exception. So
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of that golf course. You know,
Speaker 2: once I left, I didn't really see the rest of it,
Speaker 2: you know, completed. I did have the opportunity which was
Speaker 2: my first you know kind of official court Crenshaw Green
Speaker 2: that I got to build was number seven out there.
Speaker 2: Kind of the reverse were dand AR three, you know,
Speaker 2: fun little shot in there. But I mean, if it's
Speaker 2: a you know, I want, I went, I got. I
Speaker 2: went as an old town. I got a chance to
Speaker 2: go back there and kind of you know, take a
Speaker 2: little loop and and look at the holes that you
Speaker 2: know that that we're finished. I mean, you just you know,
Speaker 2: you gotta you gotta think about the shots you make
Speaker 2: in there. You know you can make the ground game
Speaker 2: is uh, you know there. I mean it's you know,
Speaker 2: it's just been one of those golf courses that you know,
Speaker 2: has gone through a lot of different transitions, and you know,
Speaker 2: from what I hear from different people, it's, uh, it's
Speaker 2: it's it's back up there. It's and I don't know
Speaker 2: what's uh when you were there, when what was your
Speaker 2: what was your take of of of Dormy Club and
Speaker 2: the conditions?
Speaker 1: And I think it's awesome. It's you got with the
Speaker 1: greens are like are tough? You know they you got
Speaker 1: I forget, I forget what hole was you got that?
Speaker 1: I really like that part four that has that downhill
Speaker 1: shot with the the waters not in play, but it's
Speaker 1: over to the right and it's got those cool cross
Speaker 1: bunkers coming down. I played four.
Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, maybe four kind of has the
Speaker 2: ravine and the waters off to the Yeah, you know
Speaker 2: that that's that's a really neat neat meat Bassola.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you know, for me, that was my first
Speaker 1: time playing in North Carolina, and I you know, I
Speaker 1: just the land site and the pines. It's just such
Speaker 1: a unique golf experience for anybody that hasn't been down
Speaker 1: there and played that kind of golf. You know, it
Speaker 1: played firm and fast, you know, the green I loved
Speaker 1: all like the runoff areas, the fairway around the greens.
Speaker 1: That it's one of my favorite features in terms of
Speaker 1: golf courses is having you know ample you know, slopes
Speaker 1: and have that ball run you know, if you miss
Speaker 1: that green, have it run twenty yards and staying fairway
Speaker 1: because I think that it's so cool. It's such a
Speaker 1: unique test and unique shots. Coming back from those.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely makes you think about what shot you're taken,
Speaker 2: and they're not just you know, your standard. You know,
Speaker 2: the golf course isn't dictating what you what you have
Speaker 2: to do, which is so great on Court French House
Speaker 2: site that you know, the golf course isn't going to say, well,
Speaker 2: you got to hit this shot. You know, you have options,
Speaker 2: you know you're going to use every club and you're bad,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, it's just you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's just the great you know characters of a court
Speaker 2: Friendshaw projects.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's you know, one of my favorite you know,
Speaker 1: architecture kind of principles is I never think that the
Speaker 1: whole should dictate the type of shot that you have
Speaker 1: to play, you know, where you know, off the t
Speaker 1: a slicer and hit a slice, you know, and there
Speaker 1: isn't all these trees on the left side that that
Speaker 1: don't let them do that, you know, but there is
Speaker 1: a specific way that the golf course should be played,
Speaker 1: you know, where you know certain if you're able to
Speaker 1: hit certain shot shapes, you're rewarded for doing so, but
Speaker 1: you're not, you know, essentially, you know, kindalyzed heavily for
Speaker 1: not being able to hit a specific shape exactly. It's
Speaker 1: it's interesting. It's that you know, there's golf courses and
Speaker 1: just playability is I think the number one thing that
Speaker 1: golf courses need. Yeah, yeah, I mean every type of
Speaker 1: player has fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean getting getting that short cut you know,
Speaker 2: instead of having rough you know in some of those
Speaker 2: areas between the transitions between a t you know, on
Speaker 2: some of these like short course like Winter Park, where
Speaker 2: you know, before the golf course had rough you know,
Speaker 2: and now we just one cut fair way and dreams.
Speaker 2: So I mean you're seeing the ball run. I mean
Speaker 2: these beginners. You know, even if they top the ball
Speaker 2: and the one burn it down there, they're advancing the ball.
Speaker 2: They're enjoying it. You know when you when you put
Speaker 2: a bunker in front of them or or things like
Speaker 2: that rough and you just get you know, it gets frustrated,
Speaker 2: you know. And yeah, and and I think that's I
Speaker 2: think that's one thing. You know, get get rid of
Speaker 2: that rough, you know, cut it down shoulder and let
Speaker 2: people enjoy the game. Don't don't penalize everyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you know, for the better players, you
Speaker 1: make it about angles, you know, you make it yep. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you make it so that you know, you want to
Speaker 1: be on the right side of the fairway and maybe
Speaker 1: you have you know, you have a bunker over there
Speaker 1: that you know only they can get to.
Speaker 2: I think that's exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you make it and that's the strategy. No, no,
Speaker 1: go for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I mean that's I mean, that's one thing
Speaker 2: I guess, you know, kind of going back to the
Speaker 2: winter Park thing, I mean, you know, we were we
Speaker 2: were really stuck and limited because we had roads and
Speaker 2: we had a ringing, we had we had different things,
Speaker 2: but we we had to figure out ways to make
Speaker 2: it challenging for you know, the low handicapper. You know,
Speaker 2: how is he gonna you know, challenge this person, but
Speaker 2: yet not challenge you know, the high handicappers. So I mean,
Speaker 2: we looked at areas where we still different sets of
Speaker 2: teas that angled away from bunkers. You know that if
Speaker 2: this guy, if he carries a bunker, then he's gonna
Speaker 2: get shaped, you know. But if this dinner player, that
Speaker 2: buffer isn't even in play because the angle will be
Speaker 2: set the you know, just kind of keeping you know,
Speaker 2: that in mind. And there are different angles and risk
Speaker 2: reward that you can put into a golf course that
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, as the person gets furder in
Speaker 2: their golf games and they start moving back to the further,
Speaker 2: you know, they kind of move back to this season
Speaker 2: they you know, I mean even I think I think
Speaker 2: the cool thing about Winter Park is what we've seen
Speaker 2: is that even when they shift the keys from not
Speaker 2: the back kee and they kind of move it up
Speaker 2: and then some of the as you've been playing the
Speaker 2: golf course every day, like wow, you know, this completely
Speaker 2: changes the whole and this is new and it's neat,
Speaker 2: you know, so.
Speaker 1: Factoring in that, yeah, I mean it's it's kind of
Speaker 1: fun sometimes to play golf courses. Like, you know, I
Speaker 1: play the back tis almost everywhere I go. But the
Speaker 1: thing I used to like to do and a golf
Speaker 1: course I played a lot is I'd play the front
Speaker 1: piece like the lady's teeth and see how low I
Speaker 1: could shoot. And you know, it's actually kind of like
Speaker 1: a fun, cool extra size. I mean, like you think,
Speaker 1: you know, but if it makes you really work on
Speaker 1: your Like you know, you're driving up by greens, all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you have to work on your wedges
Speaker 1: and you're in places that you're never in before, and
Speaker 1: you know, it's just a fun way to change things up.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's one thing that we kind of
Speaker 2: you know, one of the parts that we wanted to kind
Speaker 2: of get people to do is, you know, go play
Speaker 2: for the pack and play your second nine and play
Speaker 2: from the four, you know, and then you're playing mating
Speaker 2: holes and it's got different shots, it's got different challenges,
Speaker 2: but it's got it makes you think in different ways,
Speaker 2: you know. So it's like you get your full eighteen in,
Speaker 2: but you're playing it from different angles and in different feats.
Speaker 1: All right, So our last question here is from Robbie
Speaker 1: Vogel and it's about Cabot. He played it in June
Speaker 1: and he thought it was incredible. He's wondering if there's
Speaker 1: any potential or land for a third course, and how
Speaker 1: much better do you expect the Cliffs course to get
Speaker 1: as it matures.
Speaker 2: You know, I mean you never know. I mean you
Speaker 2: got the you got the Kaiser factor, you know, my Kayser,
Speaker 2: you got you know, think klandor up there. I mean,
Speaker 2: you just never know what they what they have up
Speaker 2: there sweep you know. Sometimes you know, I could see
Speaker 2: a short course, you know, possibly being there, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean I I see growth for you know, another
Speaker 2: golf course to kind of pull people, to kind of
Speaker 2: be like a golf Cabot Trail type thing to Ugland people.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that whole area out there. Just but
Speaker 2: if you can go in the Cabot Trail play you
Speaker 2: know links, you know, you play Cabot Cliffs, you go
Speaker 2: to Highlands, you know, and then another golf course, I mean,
Speaker 2: that's there's the there. There's not many places like that
Speaker 2: where you could play that high quality golf. So I
Speaker 2: see that there'll be definitely potential for from more golf
Speaker 2: up there and for every course. Some Yeah, it just
Speaker 2: takes it takes time. You know, it will take a
Speaker 2: few more years, you know. I mean the thing with
Speaker 2: with Cliffs is it's so popular that you've got so
Speaker 2: many people coming there that you just don't want to
Speaker 2: wear it out. You know, you got the factor all
Speaker 2: the people playing, but then you got all the caddies
Speaker 2: on top of it. You think about how much foot
Speaker 2: traffic you know, you're putting on those greens and around
Speaker 2: the greens. You know, it's but also you're trying to
Speaker 2: get that much golf in a small window of the
Speaker 2: time that you have to actually get golf out there
Speaker 2: and Inverness. So I mean it's always as it's a
Speaker 2: double edged sort there because yeah, you know you want
Speaker 2: to bring people in and get them out there and
Speaker 2: enjoy it, but yet you don't want to you don't
Speaker 2: want to wear it out. But I think it really
Speaker 2: is the winters. You know, how the winter goes, how
Speaker 2: how the course winters. If they get snow covered, they
Speaker 2: get moisture, you know, how those greens come out of
Speaker 2: the winter the next year. There's always a challenge.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I bet that had some interesting constraints to
Speaker 1: building it. I bet you had a lot of cold
Speaker 1: days on a dozer out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it was that. That's probably the most
Speaker 2: challenging project I've ever worked on, you know. I mean
Speaker 2: you have a small window of time, you know, and
Speaker 2: and and all the guys that work on that project
Speaker 2: just gave their heart and and and made a bunch
Speaker 2: of sacrifices to get that get that project to where
Speaker 2: it is now. I mean to debut at I don't know,
Speaker 2: it was nineteen in the world or or some I
Speaker 2: don't know, some way up there on the list. I mean,
Speaker 2: a lot of guys put their hearts into making that
Speaker 2: project happen. And it was tough days, I'll tell you
Speaker 2: it was. It tests you in every which way, and
Speaker 2: just when you think you're getting it, you know, it
Speaker 2: would you know, mother nature would come down and and
Speaker 2: and beat you down. You know. It was a it
Speaker 2: was a very uh, very tough projects are very rewarding,
Speaker 2: and I'm just glad that you know, people aren't enjoying it.
Speaker 2: And you know, Lynks is you know, what Ross Rob's
Speaker 2: done out there is an awesome force. You know, It's
Speaker 2: it's cool that you know, building Ben and and Rod.
Speaker 2: All these guys you know, get get the work, you know,
Speaker 2: close together on the project like that. So and to
Speaker 2: have Rod work on cliffs too, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: you kind of dig into the roots of you know,
Speaker 2: these guys, you know, like doing Bill sitting and Rod
Speaker 2: and Rob was working at a golf course with them,
Speaker 2: and they're sitting there, you know, talking about maybe some
Speaker 2: day building golf courses and then you know, you fast forward,
Speaker 2: you know, thirty years thereon Rod got a golf course
Speaker 2: that he designed and then build build a golf course
Speaker 2: right next hill. I mean, it's just you know, just cool,
Speaker 2: cool stories. You could probably still hours of podcasts about,
Speaker 2: you know, with with with Bill and Ben and day
Speaker 2: back some stories.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty cool. I mean, I'm I'm really excited
Speaker 1: to see your career progress in the coming years and
Speaker 1: hopefully we'll get you on here, you know, a bunch
Speaker 1: more and talk about some more cool projects. But really
Speaker 1: appreciate all the time. I mean, you gave us a
Speaker 1: good hour plus and I'm sure you had a long
Speaker 1: day out on the ridge at the ridge course at
Speaker 1: uh six Peter Lodge and you probably got an early
Speaker 1: morning tomorrow.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, and uh, you know, I just.
Speaker 2: Want to think, you know, thank all the listeners too,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, you know, this is all kind
Speaker 2: of new for me that to kind of be out there,
Speaker 2: you know, to talk about you know what now It's
Speaker 2: it's sometimes hard for me to talk about what I
Speaker 2: do because I don't want it to to come across
Speaker 2: as you know, cocky or have an ego or anything
Speaker 2: like that. I mean, it's just you know, we're just
Speaker 2: you know, guys that are really passionate about what we
Speaker 2: do and and really want to work with, you know,
Speaker 2: people that enjoy the game, and you know, we just
Speaker 2: want to work with cool people and build cool golf.
Speaker 2: I mean, if we can do that, then you know,
Speaker 2: golf will win. And you know it's it's not about
Speaker 2: it's not about the name of who the designer is
Speaker 2: or or or who that is. I mean, if it
Speaker 2: could be more about the golf course and and what
Speaker 2: that does for a community or the people in that area.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's I just really appreciate you know, you
Speaker 2: you're having me on here. It's always nice to meet
Speaker 2: people that are passionate about you know, architecture and and
Speaker 2: find new ways to kind of get the information out
Speaker 2: to people. And you know, thanks, thanks again for having
Speaker 2: me on here. I don't hope I didn't mess it
Speaker 2: up too much. And my phone dropped out dropped out.
Speaker 3: There a couple of times. So this will be this
Speaker 3: will be your last. Uh you know, we'll kind of.
Speaker 3: I know that you're up in your game on the
Speaker 3: podcast thing, so I guess you can go out with
Speaker 3: a bang on this one thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for everybody out there, I want to say this
Speaker 1: is the last, the last podcast without a real microphone.
Speaker 1: So the podcast is and the next thing we're gonna
Speaker 1: work on. We're gonna get some entrance music. So yeah,
Speaker 1: the podcast, but I don't know if we'll get a
Speaker 1: better guy. So I appreciate the time, Keith, and uh
Speaker 1: we'll talk soon. Okay, thank you, thanks like you, thank you.
Speaker 2: M