Speaker 1: One of the things that I kept a screenshot of
Speaker 1: was the one that I thought was the worst. It's
Speaker 1: a collage. It's almost like a Christmas card. There's some
Speaker 1: writing on the top and the bottom and then all
Speaker 1: these different photos. The photo in the top corner is
Speaker 1: a picture of my face, and then the rest of
Speaker 1: the pictures are nudes and they become ever an ever
Speaker 1: more close up and across the top it says something
Speaker 1: along the lines of slut wife alert. Do you know
Speaker 1: this woman? And that's out there and I can't ever
Speaker 1: get it back.
Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about
Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that
Speaker 2: change everything. Here at Betrayal, we've received hundreds of emails
Speaker 2: messages from listeners telling us their own shocking stories, and
Speaker 2: we knew we had to find a way to share them.
Speaker 2: So I'm excited to announce that every Thursday, we will
Speaker 2: be bringing you new, fascinating stories of resilience in the
Speaker 2: face of devastating betrayal.
Speaker 3: Some stories may.
Speaker 2: Be told over a week or two weeks, some more,
Speaker 2: and we knew where to start. A listener who emailed
Speaker 2: us in the summer of twenty twenty three, she wrote,
Speaker 2: I've been in this betrayal club for over two years now.
Speaker 2: When I discovered your podcast, I was intrigued. We were
Speaker 2: the couple that all the other couples envied. We were
Speaker 2: best friends, walking down main street, holding hands and giggling
Speaker 2: like newlyweds after two decades together. The email explained that
Speaker 2: she didn't just love her husband, she liked him. He
Speaker 2: was the love of her life, or so she thought.
Speaker 2: It's funny how so many of these betrayal stories start
Speaker 2: the same way, beautiful, long term relationships that aren't what
Speaker 2: they appear to be. This is Stephanie's story, although that's.
Speaker 3: Not her real name.
Speaker 2: All the names will hear in this story have been
Speaker 2: changed or censored to respect her privacy.
Speaker 1: We got married in nineteen ninety eight. It was a
Speaker 1: second marriage for both of us. I came with four boys.
Speaker 1: He had a boy and a girl. Our kids were
Speaker 1: already friends and were thrilled about us being together.
Speaker 2: Stephanie and her husband I'm gonna call him Greg, live
Speaker 2: together in a tiny Midwestern town. It's the kind of
Speaker 2: town where everybody knows everybody.
Speaker 1: It's like a small town that you would see on
Speaker 1: a movie or a sitcom. I didn't want my husband
Speaker 1: to go to the grocery store with me. It just
Speaker 1: would take so long if he went with because we
Speaker 1: knew every person at the store and everyone would have
Speaker 1: to stop and visit with him.
Speaker 2: Their big, blended family was well known in town. Picture
Speaker 2: a modern day Brady bunch. At least that's the feeling
Speaker 2: I got from a photo she shared with me. It's Stephanie,
Speaker 2: her sons, and Greg's kids, all six of them standing
Speaker 2: side by side on the beach, smiling. Their family takes
Speaker 2: up the whole three by five photo across their arm
Speaker 2: and arm having the best beach vacation.
Speaker 3: It's really sweet.
Speaker 1: He was the absolute ideal husband. He was my best friend.
Speaker 1: He did housework, he cooked, he played with the kids,
Speaker 1: and when the kids were little, we would go in
Speaker 1: and volunteer at their elementary school and help with their
Speaker 1: reading groups, which was super fun and like what their
Speaker 1: dad does that? I mean back in those days, he
Speaker 1: was the only dad who volunteered, and the kids all
Speaker 1: loved him.
Speaker 2: There's another photo of Stephanie and her husband in front
Speaker 2: of a waterfall in a forest with his arms wrapped
Speaker 2: around her. The sun lights her face, and she looks
Speaker 2: relaxed and blissful.
Speaker 1: He was very kind, very generous, very interested in hearing
Speaker 1: what I had to say. He very much lifted me up.
Speaker 1: He made me feel seen, and he made me feel
Speaker 1: like I was smart and competent.
Speaker 2: They had great chemistry. They made great partners, not just
Speaker 2: in marriage but in business.
Speaker 1: I just end upded up working at my husband's optometry practice,
Speaker 1: because you know, it's a small practice, just him. He
Speaker 1: always had three employees and one quit and I was
Speaker 1: kind of in between jobs, so it's like, oh, could
Speaker 1: you just fill in?
Speaker 2: Stephanie did a lot more than just fill in. She
Speaker 2: started managing her husband's optometry practice, pushing insurance claims through
Speaker 2: and making the business more profitable than ever. They had
Speaker 2: a clear vision for their future.
Speaker 1: We certainly were not rich, but we were very comfortable.
Speaker 1: We had our own resort in our backyard. We had
Speaker 1: a large in ground pool, hot ub, basketball court. Have
Speaker 1: this great photo of Greg on his giant pool lounger
Speaker 1: watching the Master's golf tournament on our outdoor big screen TV.
Speaker 1: We had just begun a plan of getting the house
Speaker 1: absolutely perfect and maintenance for when we retired.
Speaker 2: Of course, there were hard moments, bumps along the way,
Speaker 2: and a twenty two year marriage that's par for the course.
Speaker 1: At one point, he admitted that he hadn't been paying
Speaker 1: the taxes at his business and there was a possibility
Speaker 1: we could lose the business, our house, he could go
Speaker 1: to jail. That's a pretty big bump. It's like I've
Speaker 1: invested everything. I've put my life and my kids' lives
Speaker 1: in this man's hands. So that was tough, but we
Speaker 1: worked through it.
Speaker 2: They agreed to a payment plan with the irs and
Speaker 2: move forward as a team, back on track for a
Speaker 2: happy retirement. As the kids got older, Stephanie and her
Speaker 2: husband adjusted well to the empty nest.
Speaker 1: When the kids were grown, things were almost even better.
Speaker 1: We would leave the office and walk hand in hand
Speaker 1: down the street to the local cafe and go to
Speaker 1: lunch together and sit and talk and laugh through the
Speaker 1: whole lunch, not and scroll on our phones like other couples,
Speaker 1: And then we would go back and work for the afternoon,
Speaker 1: and then we would go home together and make dinner,
Speaker 1: watch our favorite game shows, and play a board game.
Speaker 2: Even during the twenty twenty pandemic, Stephanie and her husband
Speaker 2: got along.
Speaker 1: So you know, during COVID, I'd hop on a zoom
Speaker 1: call with like six or seven girlfriends and we're pretty
Speaker 1: much all empty masters. So we're all just stuck in
Speaker 1: the house alone with our husbands. And my friends have
Speaker 1: good marriages, and still there was a lot of like,
Speaker 1: I don't know how much longer I can take this.
Speaker 1: I'm really bored, and I'm going, oh gosh, you guys,
Speaker 1: I feel bad because, you know what, we're having a
Speaker 1: blast over here. We're trying new recipes, We've got this
Speaker 1: whole game thing going on, We're doing all these puzzles.
Speaker 1: We're having so much fun.
Speaker 2: When COVID restrictions lifted, the couple took the opportunity to
Speaker 2: spend even more time together and enjoy a warmer climate.
Speaker 1: Kind of on a whim, we were like, hey, things
Speaker 1: are opening up. We didn't get to go on our
Speaker 1: winter vacation to our time sharing cancuon let's go down there.
Speaker 1: So we had gone down the first week of April
Speaker 1: and had a fabulous time as we always do.
Speaker 2: But on this little COVID getaway, she could tell that
Speaker 2: something was off with Greg. She first noticed it when
Speaker 2: they were lounging by the pool.
Speaker 1: One of the things that really struck me as weird
Speaker 1: on that trip was that we had kind of sat
Speaker 1: in this same spot a couple days and there was
Speaker 1: someone else sitting a couple chairs down from us, another
Speaker 1: husband and wife, and the guy made me really uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: You know how some guys just look at you weird,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're hanging out in your bathing suit whatever,
Speaker 1: And the guy just kind of made me uncomfortable. And
Speaker 1: I told Greg that, I said, you know, that guy
Speaker 1: is just kind of creeping me out. Can we sit
Speaker 1: somewhere else? And he said no. That was totally out
Speaker 1: of character for him. He was always so accommodating to
Speaker 1: me and never wanted me to feel uncomfortable. I mean,
Speaker 1: does it matter if we sit over on the other
Speaker 1: side of the gorgeous infinity pool looking out at the ocean.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it just struck me as a little weird.
Speaker 2: It was weird, but Stephanie didn't think much of it.
Speaker 2: That night, the couple indulged in a long, romantic dinner.
Speaker 2: This was always part of their vacation, a few dinners
Speaker 2: where they could really treat.
Speaker 1: Themselves, many many courses and lots of different drink and
Speaker 1: wine and follow that.
Speaker 2: The next morning, Stephanie was in a fog. I was
Speaker 2: very out of it, like it was really hard to
Speaker 2: wake up. I had this feeling it was almost.
Speaker 1: Like I was at the bottom of the lake and
Speaker 1: I could just see light way up ahead, but it
Speaker 1: was so hard to try to get there. And then
Speaker 1: I would just feel so awful, like very cotton mull,
Speaker 1: very dehydrated, headache, miserable, waking up. Shouldn't feel like that.
Speaker 3: But Greg was there to help take care of her.
Speaker 1: Last night. You had a lot to drink, and we
Speaker 1: were out in the sun a lot. I'm sure you're dehydrated.
Speaker 1: Let's get you some water, Let's get you some coffee.
Speaker 1: Let's try to stay out of the sun a little
Speaker 1: bit today, you know, very comforting, very.
Speaker 2: Kind, and Stephanie was determined to make the most out
Speaker 2: of the rest of for vacant.
Speaker 1: We got home and on the airplane, I had seen
Speaker 1: somebody was watching. You know, you can kind of see
Speaker 1: other people's screens. I could see somebody was watching something
Speaker 1: with Nicole Kidman, and I was like, oh, that looks
Speaker 1: kind of intriguing. I got to look that up and
Speaker 1: see what they're watching. So I figured it out that
Speaker 1: they were watching this show called The Undoing.
Speaker 2: The Undoing was a fictional TV mini series about a
Speaker 2: pediatric surgeon played by Hugh Grant. The character is warm
Speaker 2: and charming, but is ultimately suspected of a violent crime.
Speaker 2: It's at complete odds with the man. His wife knows.
Speaker 2: When Stephanie got home, she binge watched the show.
Speaker 1: In that first episode, he is just so engaged with
Speaker 1: his child, and he's so fawning over Nicole Kidman about
Speaker 1: you know, just how beautiful and wonderful and perfect she is.
Speaker 1: But he doesn't want want to go and like socialize
Speaker 1: with other people and go to the party.
Speaker 3: Eerily. This character reminded Stephanie of Greg.
Speaker 1: He just wants this little bubble of his little family
Speaker 1: and he loves being adored by his patience. Just this
Speaker 1: really engaging charismatic personality, but yet doesn't necessarily always want
Speaker 1: to be social unless he can be the center of attention.
Speaker 1: As it became more and more clear that the Hugh
Speaker 1: Grant character had this tremendous secret, it just made this
Speaker 1: feeling in my gut, say, you know who else has secrets?
Speaker 1: Your own husband?
Speaker 2: It's unsettling to see a depiction of a violent and
Speaker 2: manipulative character on TV and think, Hey, that reminds me
Speaker 2: of my husband. That's exactly what happened to Stephanie. There
Speaker 2: was a nagging feeling, a twist in her gut that
Speaker 2: felt distantly familiar. Stephanie had felt this before. After one
Speaker 2: big fight she'd had with Greg years ago in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: Stephanie had found out about a secret her husband was keeping.
Speaker 3: Here's what happened.
Speaker 1: Back then on this particular weekend in twenty sixteen. It
Speaker 1: was just a weekend trip with another couple. The guys
Speaker 1: had been golfing all day, as girls had been hiking
Speaker 1: and sightseeing, and we got back to the hotel and
Speaker 1: got ready and went out for dinner, the four of us.
Speaker 1: And after dinner, I wanted to take a picture of
Speaker 1: the four of us, and I was like, Oh, my
Speaker 1: phone is somewhere in the bottom of my purse. Just
Speaker 1: give me yours. So I grabbed his phone and I
Speaker 1: opened the camera. In the bottom corner, it showed the
Speaker 1: last photo he had taken, And the last photo he
Speaker 1: had taken was of me getting ready in our hotel room,
Speaker 1: nude from the waistep I had no idea it had
Speaker 1: been taken. So I see this photo of me on
Speaker 1: his phone, and I don't want to say anything in
Speaker 1: front of our friends, So we take the picture. I say,
Speaker 1: I'm not feeling well. We go back to the room.
Speaker 1: I hold onto his phone the whole time until we
Speaker 1: get up there, and I'm like, what is this? What
Speaker 1: the hell?
Speaker 2: Stephanie enjoyed the physical intimacy of her marriage. She thought
Speaker 2: it was in a healthy place. There were boundaries.
Speaker 1: I did not ever consent to that. I did not
Speaker 1: ever say I would do that. And he also knew
Speaker 1: that there had been a few times throughout the years
Speaker 1: when he had asked about taking pictures and I very
Speaker 1: adamantly said no and talked with him about things like
Speaker 1: what if the kids open to your phone. I just
Speaker 1: don't want to take the chance that anything would ever
Speaker 1: get out there. And here's the thing, I told him,
Speaker 1: I'm live and in person. You see me, you see
Speaker 1: my body every day. And I wanted to have sex
Speaker 1: with my husband. I felt like that was an important
Speaker 1: part of our love and our marriage. Shouldn't that be enough.
Speaker 2: Instead of respecting her boundary around pornography and nude photos,
Speaker 2: Greg had used it against her, twisted it to explain
Speaker 2: away his own indiscretions.
Speaker 1: He knew that I was adamantly opposed to pornography, and
Speaker 1: the reasoning he gave for taking pictures of me was
Speaker 1: he felt that he shouldn't look at pornography and instead
Speaker 1: he would create his own just for himself. He ended
Speaker 1: up telling me, I've only ever done it a couple times.
Speaker 1: There's only a few pictures. I wanted it to make
Speaker 1: sense because I couldn't breathe without him.
Speaker 2: When they got home from that vacation back in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: Stephanie moved into the guest bedroom.
Speaker 3: She was mad. It stayed that way for a few weeks.
Speaker 2: They still worked together and kept the same routine, but
Speaker 2: they slept in separate bedrooms.
Speaker 3: Greg worked hard to earn her forgiveness.
Speaker 1: One evening in early September, you know, after this had
Speaker 1: been going on for a few weeks, that I was
Speaker 1: in the other bedroom. I was sitting in the family
Speaker 1: room watching TV, and he came over and he knelt
Speaker 1: in front of me and he sobbed. I mean just
Speaker 1: the tears and the snot and the whole thing, just
Speaker 1: poured his heart out at how terrible. He felt that
Speaker 1: he had ever done anything like that, and that he
Speaker 1: would never do anything to jeopardize our relationship because I'm
Speaker 1: the most important thing in the world. Our marriage is
Speaker 1: the most important thing in the world. He can't live
Speaker 1: without me, and there's nothing he wouldn't do for my forgiveness,
Speaker 1: and so.
Speaker 3: I forgave him under a few conditions.
Speaker 1: The one thing that I made him agree to was
Speaker 1: that I had access to all of his devices anytime
Speaker 1: I wanted, all his passwords, everything, and I could check
Speaker 1: them whenever I wanted, without question. He absolutely agreed to that,
Speaker 1: and she lived like that.
Speaker 2: For six years, checking his phone and devices three times
Speaker 2: a week.
Speaker 1: So the trust was in a really tenuous place after
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. But now balance that with everything else is perfect.
Speaker 2: She believed her husband when he said it began and
Speaker 2: ended with that photo he took of her on vacation,
Speaker 2: Like she says, everything else about their life was fantastic.
Speaker 2: So slowly they worked through it. During hardships, trust, love
Speaker 2: and bonds are often forged even stronger.
Speaker 1: It just was this very grounding feeling that as long as.
Speaker 4: I had that relationship, as long as we were together,
Speaker 4: there really wasn't anything that I couldn't handle, that I
Speaker 4: couldn't get through.
Speaker 1: And as much.
Speaker 3: As I talk about how.
Speaker 1: Great and how content and how wonderful everything felt, I
Speaker 1: always had an eye and an ear out for anything
Speaker 1: to be off.
Speaker 2: The couple resumed their normal routine.
Speaker 3: Every night.
Speaker 2: Stephanie went to bed early to read, while her husband
Speaker 2: would stay up late fiddling around with his guilty pleasure
Speaker 2: fantasy sports, and I mean a lot of fantasy sports.
Speaker 1: He would participate in ten or twelve fantasy.
Speaker 3: Football leagues every year.
Speaker 1: He would do fantasy baseball and golf, and so he
Speaker 1: would spend a tremendous amount of time. Sometimes I'd wake
Speaker 1: up at one two in the morning and be like,
Speaker 1: are you coming to bed? Because he was still on
Speaker 1: his computer doing fantasy football. But he wasn't. That's not
Speaker 1: what he was doing.
Speaker 2: After the break, Stephanie makes a life shattering discovery. There
Speaker 2: is a photo of Stephanie on vacation with her husband.
Speaker 2: She is staring into his eyes. The two look madly
Speaker 2: in love, infatuated, almost smiling so big it's like they
Speaker 2: just started dating, not twenty two years into their marriage.
Speaker 2: Looking at that picture, I think, good for them. They
Speaker 2: persevered through a tough financial crisis with their business but
Speaker 2: made it out the other side. They were coasting into retirement,
Speaker 2: and they even worked through a major trust issue, the
Speaker 2: fallout after Stephanie found a naked photo of her on
Speaker 2: her husband's phone. But intuition is an interesting thing, that
Speaker 2: twist of the gut. Six years had come and gone,
Speaker 2: she had forgiven her husband, They had a happy life,
Speaker 2: yet something still churned inside Stephanie. On an and seasonably
Speaker 2: warm day in April twenty twenty one, she was home
Speaker 2: alone while Greg was out golfing with his friends.
Speaker 1: I had that feeling. I was like, I got to
Speaker 1: check all his stuff while he's gone. I saw his
Speaker 1: laptop was sitting there by his recliner. I picked it
Speaker 1: up and I took it over to the kitchen counter
Speaker 1: and that was where I was sitting, and I literally
Speaker 1: just lifted it up and it was there. The pages
Speaker 1: were open. He had a Flicker account filled with nude
Speaker 1: photos of me, Hundreds of pictures, lots and lots of
Speaker 1: them that were like the one I saw him take
Speaker 1: me getting ready shower, bathtub, that kind of stuff. Lots
Speaker 1: of photos taken when we were at our time, sharing
Speaker 1: Cancun from angles that I would never have agreed to.
Speaker 2: To make it even more disturbing, there were captions under
Speaker 2: the photos of Stephanie, disgusting captions. It's uncomfortable for me
Speaker 2: to even read this, but it shows just how degraded
Speaker 2: Stephanie felt. One caption read made your wife eat my comb.
Speaker 2: These photos were live posted on the Internet for anyone
Speaker 2: to access. In the moment, Stephanie was panicked.
Speaker 1: I'm in the account and I'm deleting, deleting, deleting, deleting,
Speaker 1: and then something in me went, I gotta have evidence
Speaker 1: of this at that point, not even thinking it was illegal, like,
Speaker 1: I can't even believe this, No one is ever going
Speaker 1: to believe me. So I took some screenshots and then deleted,
Speaker 1: so that I deleted all the naked pictures out of
Speaker 1: his account.
Speaker 2: She was in reaction mode, horrified and angry. She confronted
Speaker 2: him right away.
Speaker 1: I texted him a screenshot of that picture of me
Speaker 1: in the bikini, and.
Speaker 2: With that picture she typed out a message. In that message,
Speaker 2: she called Greg by his online alias you see on
Speaker 2: all of his accounts.
Speaker 3: He didn't use his real name.
Speaker 2: Instead, he used the name of one of his patients,
Speaker 2: a patient who was a mentally disabled adult.
Speaker 1: So on the morning of the eleventh I sent this text,
Speaker 1: we need to talk. You better come home so he
Speaker 1: knows he's busted. He comes flying home and it's all
Speaker 1: there on the computer. There's no backing his way out
Speaker 1: of it. This time. His reaction is one hundred percent
Speaker 1: of it than it was the time before. He readily
Speaker 1: confessed to all of it. No tears, no remorse, no regret,
Speaker 1: no care whatsoever. He talked to me like he was
Speaker 1: telling me I went to the store and got a
Speaker 1: gallon of milk.
Speaker 2: In addition to the photos of herself, there were photos
Speaker 2: of other women. What was this and why did he
Speaker 2: have these photos?
Speaker 1: He said, I have those pictures of those other women
Speaker 1: because I trade. Like kids trade Pokemon cards, I would
Speaker 1: trade your image.
Speaker 2: Stephanie is usually a very calm person. She can count
Speaker 2: on one hand the times she's ever raised her voice
Speaker 2: at her family, But on this day she lost it.
Speaker 1: I was screaming, taking pictures off the wall and just
Speaker 1: smashing them. I took the kitty litter box and dumped
Speaker 1: it in his bed. I mean, I broke a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff completely out of character. I was screaming and
Speaker 1: breaking things to the point where it set off the
Speaker 1: house alarm because we had glass break sensors, and because
Speaker 1: there were so many things being smashed and so much screaming,
Speaker 1: the sensors went off.
Speaker 2: On the day she found out, she was so mad
Speaker 2: she couldn't even process the bigger question.
Speaker 1: I mean, it really took me about twenty four hours
Speaker 1: to get to the point of looking at that and going,
Speaker 1: I don't understand how he could take those pictures without
Speaker 1: me knowing.
Speaker 2: She squinted at the photos, trying to remember when and
Speaker 2: where they were taken.
Speaker 1: There was a series of photos of me on the
Speaker 1: bed at our time share, and I'm fully naked, spreading
Speaker 1: along the bed, and there's close ups. There's no way
Speaker 1: you can get that angle on a person without them
Speaker 1: knowing you're there.
Speaker 2: There was only one way it could have happened.
Speaker 1: I know what happened. He drugged me. Yeah, he drugged me.
Speaker 2: There was twenty two years of marriage, the vows they'd taken,
Speaker 2: the business they'd grown together, the children they'd raised, their
Speaker 2: plans for retirement, and then there was this stranger, this man.
Speaker 2: She slept beside, a man who was drugging her, hosting
Speaker 2: photos of her nude body on the internet, photos with
Speaker 2: her face in them, photos captioned with her real first name,
Speaker 2: all for his own enjoyment. On the next episode of Betrayal,
Speaker 2: Stephanie runs for her life.
Speaker 1: At five am. They were on the phone and said,
Speaker 1: get out, get out. We are afraid he is going
Speaker 1: to kill you. This is a huge secret. He is
Speaker 1: not going to want anyone to know you are in danger.
Speaker 1: Get out, don't take anything, just get out right now.
Speaker 2: Next time, Stephanie starts her own investigation, she finds out
Speaker 2: what her husband was really doing online, and what she
Speaker 2: discovers is worse than she could.
Speaker 3: Have ever imagined.
Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
Speaker 2: team or one to tell us your betrayal story, email
Speaker 2: us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. Also, please be sure to follow
Speaker 2: us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all Betrayal content,
Speaker 2: news and updates. We're grateful for your support. One way
Speaker 2: to show support is by subscribing to our show on
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal
Speaker 2: five star reviews, go a long way, a big thank
Speaker 2: you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production
Speaker 2: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in
Speaker 2: partnership with iHeartPodcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy
Speaker 2: Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning,
Speaker 2: written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Speaker 2: Associate producers are Kristin Mercurie and Grace Bollinger. Our iHeart
Speaker 2: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Special thanks to Stephanie.
Speaker 2: Audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Betrayal's theme composed
Speaker 2: by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.