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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty five, Derek and Nancy Haysm were found

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Speaker 1: brutally stabbed to death in their Bedford County, Virginia home.

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Speaker 1: When their daughter, Elizabeth Haysm became a prime suspect. She

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Speaker 1: and her boyfriend Jen Zuring, the son of a German diplomat,

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Speaker 1: fled together on an international run from this double homicide.

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Speaker 1: When Athoris caught up with them in London. YenS followed

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Speaker 1: through on his promise in this scenario to use his

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Speaker 1: diplomatic community in order to save the love of his life, Elizabeth,

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Speaker 1: from the electric chair, so he falsely confessed to the murders. Now,

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Speaker 1: Yen's had type O blood and this was before DNA testing,

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Speaker 1: so the type O blood founded the scene only served

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Speaker 1: to corroborate his involvement, leading to his conviction. Elizabeth was

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Speaker 1: convicted as an accessory. When that type O blood that

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Speaker 1: convicted Yen's was finally tested for DNA, it excluded him.

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Speaker 2: As the source.

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Speaker 1: However, this was still not enough for the Commonwealth of

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Speaker 1: Virginia to admit their mistake and set him free. On

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Speaker 1: February fourth, twenty nineteen, we released an interview with En Zurring,

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Speaker 1: along with two of his most ardent supporters, the legendary

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Speaker 1: author and former defense attorney and Innocents Project board member

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Speaker 1: John Grisham and Albemarle County, Virginia Sheriff Chip Harding. Since then,

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Speaker 1: as many of you now know, the en Zurring situation

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Speaker 1: has improved immensely. In this episode, we will re release

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Speaker 1: much of the original interview, along with some new content,

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Speaker 1: including an excerpt from an interview that I did with

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Speaker 1: doctor Phil in which we spoke with Yen's again from

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Speaker 1: Buckingham Correctional Facility. We will of course keep you updated

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Speaker 1: on this ongoing story. This is Ronfuel Conviction.

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Speaker 3: Hello, this is a prepage get it call from an

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Speaker 3: innate department of Buckingham coersional to accept it, call plus

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Speaker 3: zero to refuse this call. Y call is from a

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Speaker 3: correction facility and it's subject to monitoring and recording. Thank

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Speaker 3: you for.

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Speaker 1: Having Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

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Speaker 2: It's me.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, and today we have an episode that

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Speaker 1: is going to rock your world.

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Speaker 2: We have three guests today.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna save the best for last, but we have

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Speaker 1: John Grisham in the studio with us. John, Welcome, delighted

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Speaker 1: to be here. And Sheriff Chip Harding of Albamarle County. Yes, sir,

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Speaker 1: good to be here Virginia. And on the phone is

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Speaker 1: Yen Surring, one of the most remarkable people I know

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Speaker 1: and one of the most extraordinary cases of injustice that

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Speaker 1: we've ever covered on this show. So, Yen's I always say,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm happy you're here, but I'm sorry you're here.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this, stadent,

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Speaker 4: and thanks to Chip John as well.

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Speaker 1: So this is a case that takes us back to

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Speaker 1: the eighties, believe it or not, a case that has

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Speaker 1: all the makings of a John Grisham novel. Actually, because

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Speaker 1: this goes back to Yen's when you were first an

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Speaker 1: exchange student from Germany, a brilliant young scholar. From everything

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Speaker 1: I'm told this is a Jefferson scholar, a freshman at

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Speaker 1: the University of Virginia. YenS, do you want to take

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Speaker 1: us back there and tell us how this started?

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Speaker 4: Sure, this was a nineteen eighty four in the five

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Speaker 4: I arrived at the University of Virginia as a freshman

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Speaker 4: called christ students there, and I met a young woman

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Speaker 4: there who was two and a half years older than

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Speaker 4: I was, Eliab, and we were both in the same dormitory.

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Speaker 4: She had entered the university because she had.

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Speaker 5: Had an adventuress.

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Speaker 6: She had gone to an English boarding school and run

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Speaker 6: away with her girlfriends to Europe, things like that, and

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Speaker 6: so she came to Uva quite a bit.

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Speaker 4: Older than the rest of us in that dormitory. And

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Speaker 4: I was not an American citizen. My father was a

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Speaker 4: German diplomat, That's why I was living in the United States.

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Speaker 4: And her family came from South Africa and from Canada, so.

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Speaker 7: We were.

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Speaker 4: Drawn to each other as being foreigners, not Americans.

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Speaker 5: And in the course of that false semester in nineteen

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Speaker 5: eighty four, we fell in love. And you know, it

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Speaker 5: was quite a surprise to everybody else from the dormitory

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Speaker 5: because she was very experienced and very mature, and I was,

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Speaker 5: I guess.

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Speaker 4: A nerd, an uber nerd and virgin to boot it.

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Speaker 5: So she was my first girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: You're a German uber version nerd. It's quite a combination, Yen.

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Speaker 1: And she was a beautiful young woman, a striking woman

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Speaker 1: who you know, anyone in your situation would have probably

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Speaker 1: fallen head over heels for considering the circumstances. But it

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Speaker 1: was of course a faithful star across love affair, yes, and.

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Speaker 4: It was a very short lived love affair as well.

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Speaker 4: Three months after we started dating, or maybe four months,

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Speaker 4: we went to Washington, d C. Spend the weekend together,

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Speaker 4: and in the course of that weekend, she told me

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Speaker 4: that she was still.

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Speaker 6: Using drugs, which she had previously.

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Speaker 4: Told me she had to stop doing, and that she

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Speaker 4: needed to use our rental car to run some drugs

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Speaker 4: from Washington, d C.

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Speaker 6: To her dealer, who was also the university student.

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Speaker 4: Back in Charlottesville. And I wanted to come along, but

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Speaker 4: she wouldn't let me because she said that I was

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Speaker 4: such a.

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Speaker 6: Nerd what people would want to do business around me?

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Speaker 4: So she drove off in the car by herself and

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Speaker 4: came back eight hours later untild me. She had killed

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Speaker 4: her parents, and she said that.

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Speaker 6: The drugs had made her do it and they had

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Speaker 6: deserved it anyway, and if I didn't help her, she

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Speaker 6: would be executed.

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Speaker 4: She would be back then they used electric too, she

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Speaker 4: said that they would try her. She said that I

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Speaker 4: should be her alibi and tell the police she was

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Speaker 4: with me in.

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Speaker 6: Washington, and I told.

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Speaker 4: Her that that would never ever work, because the.

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Speaker 5: Police never believed boyfriends or husbands.

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Speaker 6: Or wives and people like that.

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Speaker 4: So I came up with this brilliant idea, based on

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Speaker 4: Charles Dickens a Tale of Two Cities, of all things,

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Speaker 4: I would take the blame for her. I would take

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Speaker 4: the rap for her and save her life. That was

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Speaker 4: based on a character in the Charles Dickens novel Sydney Carton.

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Speaker 5: Who did that in this novel.

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Speaker 4: The difference was that in the novel that particular character.

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Speaker 6: Actually did get fixed.

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Speaker 4: Whereas my father was a German diplomat, I thought I

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Speaker 4: had diplomatic community. I thought that I could take the

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Speaker 4: blame for her crime, and all that would happen with

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Speaker 4: me was about be sent back to Germany and put

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Speaker 4: in prison there, in trivenile prison for about ten years.

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Speaker 4: And I thought that giving ten years of my life

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Speaker 4: was worth saving your life from the electric too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of a twisted nobility. People do crazy

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Speaker 1: things for love all the time. And we were talking

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Speaker 1: about this earlier again, and I said that such a

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Speaker 1: strange fate that you happen to have only been with

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Speaker 1: one woman, and she turned out to be the devil.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's calling her the devil is a little oversimplified.

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Speaker 4: She was later diagnosed with a very severe personality disorder,

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Speaker 4: so she actually had serious mental health issues. And of

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Speaker 4: course she claimed that her mother had sexually.

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Speaker 6: Abused her with the.

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Speaker 4: Knowledge and cooperation of her father, and you know, there's

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Speaker 4: some indications that that may have.

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Speaker 6: Actually been true.

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Speaker 4: Of course we'll never know. For Shore, now, she was

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Speaker 4: a troubled young woman.

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Speaker 1: As things developed, you initially were not suspects, but then

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Speaker 1: at some point you decided to make a getaway. And

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Speaker 1: this is back in the days when for people don't

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Speaker 1: remember in the eighties, you could sort of travel the

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Speaker 1: world under a different name and it wasn't so tightly

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Speaker 1: monitored or regulated, and so you guys went around the

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Speaker 1: world and ultimately ended up in England. That's when things

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Speaker 1: began to go wrong, right, because you were ultimately arrested

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Speaker 1: for passing bad checks. And then we get to the

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Speaker 1: point where the false confessions come in, or your false confession.

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Speaker 4: So the police took both Elizabeth and me back from

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Speaker 4: the jails to the police station and they actually wrote

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Speaker 4: into the police station love book that I was to

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Speaker 4: be held in Kaninakado. In other words, I was to

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Speaker 4: be isolated from the outside world and not given access

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Speaker 4: to my lawyer.

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Speaker 5: And that's exactly what they did.

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Speaker 4: For four days. They interrogated me four days, many many hours,

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Speaker 4: at dozens and dozens and dozens of hours. And then finally,

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Speaker 4: on the fourth day, I decided to keep my promise

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Speaker 4: to Elizabeth that I'd made fifteen months earlier, and I

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Speaker 4: decided to take the blame for what she did. And

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Speaker 4: that's what I did. I told them this story that

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Speaker 4: she and I had cooked up. And of course, that

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Speaker 4: false confession contained many mistakes that the real pillar would

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Speaker 4: not have made. I described the clothing of one victim incorrectly,

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Speaker 4: and I placed the other victim in the wrong room,

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Speaker 4: And there were numerous mistakes like that which you should

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Speaker 4: have learned the police to the fact that I might

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Speaker 4: not be telling the truth. In addition to that, of course,

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Speaker 4: at that time, the police who were interrogating me were

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Speaker 4: in possession of an FBI crime scene profile by one

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Speaker 4: of the people invented crime scene profiling, one of the

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Speaker 4: leading special agents, and that profile said that the crime

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Speaker 4: had been committed by a woman in a close relationship

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Speaker 4: to the victims, and of course I was a man,

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Speaker 4: and I didn't know that they did at the one

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Speaker 4: time for twenty minutes, so they should have known that

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Speaker 4: the story I was telling them was not true. And then,

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Speaker 4: of course the other thing that happened is that just

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Speaker 4: a couple of hours after I told the police that

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Speaker 4: I did it, Elizabeth told the police that he did it.

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Speaker 4: She said, I did it myself. I got off on it.

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Speaker 4: I did it myself. I got off on it. But

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Speaker 4: by that stage the police had decided that I was

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Speaker 4: the guilty one, so they had actually let her withdraw

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Speaker 4: that confession, which is hilarious in a way because they

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Speaker 4: found hosting the Prince at the crime scene and not mine.

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Speaker 4: And you know, it's quite incredible that they let her

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Speaker 4: with god that confession, but they did, and so they

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Speaker 4: ended up charging me with being the and they talked

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Speaker 4: being an accomplice, and in nineteen ninety they put me

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Speaker 4: on trial and convicted me of something that I did

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Speaker 4: not do.

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Speaker 1: And I do want to bring John and Chip into

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Speaker 1: the conversation too, just to talk about this scenario that

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Speaker 1: took place in England and the immediate aftermath of it. John,

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Speaker 1: you were a criminal defense lawyer in your younger years.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it goes back to a confession, false confession. There's

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Speaker 8: no other proof to convict the ends of the murder,

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Speaker 8: so all they have is a false confession. And with

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Speaker 8: any false confession case, what you would hope that the

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Speaker 8: authorities do is once they managed to extract the confession

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Speaker 8: and whatever tactics they used to do that is that

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Speaker 8: they will match it up to the physical evidence to

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Speaker 8: see if it in fact matches. In false confessions virtually

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Speaker 8: never match up because there are too many details specifics

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Speaker 8: in the murder, the method of murder, the place, the blood,

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Speaker 8: the blood splatter, the clothing, the room, whatever, there's a

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Speaker 8: whole fingerprints, footprints, and there's a long list of items

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Speaker 8: that you know. Police go through any investigation, and with

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Speaker 8: a false confession, it's usually fairly simple to realize once

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Speaker 8: you start matching the confession given by somebody who wasn't there,

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Speaker 8: it's impossible for them to remember all the details that

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Speaker 8: the real killer would actually know, where he left the bodies,

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Speaker 8: how he killed them. Well you know who did what,

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Speaker 8: what was on the kitchen table, what was knocked over,

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Speaker 8: what was spilt? These are all you know. It's fairly

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Speaker 8: common common sense, and in Yen's case, you know, there

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Speaker 8: were so many discrepancies between his confession and the actual

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Speaker 8: physical crime scene. You just want to scream and say,

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Speaker 8: why didn't somebody put these together and match them up.

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Speaker 8: And what frustrates me is when you get to trial

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Speaker 8: and you have what you think should be a competent

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Speaker 8: defense lawyer who cannot walk through the confession step, bust

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Speaker 8: up bus step and show the discrepanies between the confession

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Speaker 8: and the actual crom scene. I'm not sure if this

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Speaker 8: was done or attempted in Yen's case, but it certainly

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Speaker 8: was not effective. And so that's what we always start

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Speaker 8: in a false confession case is let's match it up

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Speaker 8: with the proof, and it never matches up.

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Speaker 1: It never does. And this was a crazy case because,

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Speaker 1: on top of all the other factors that led to

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Speaker 1: his wrongful conviction, I think there was an inherent bias.

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Speaker 1: I can't prove this because of the fact that it

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Speaker 1: was Bedford County, which ironically is the county that lost

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Speaker 1: more soldiers in World War Two to the Germans per

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Speaker 1: capital than anywhere else in the United States. It's why

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Speaker 1: the World War Two memorial is there and so I

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Speaker 1: think that there's at least an argument that the odds

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Speaker 1: would stacked against the ends. From the beginning, I want

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Speaker 1: to bring Sheriff Harding into the conversation. Sheriff Harding, We've

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Speaker 1: been in law enforcement for several decades, four decades, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, his resume is nuts when you look at

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Speaker 1: the number of accreditations he has and the number of

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Speaker 1: awards he's won, and he's one of the most accomplished

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Speaker 1: people in law enforcement the United States. And you've dived

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Speaker 1: into this case with all guns blazing, so to speak,

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Speaker 1: and you've examined this evidence eighteen ways till Sunday. Is

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Speaker 1: it theoretically possible that Ian's committed this crime?

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Speaker 2: Is it possible?

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Speaker 9: I mean he could have been dropped down with us

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Speaker 9: from a spaceship and done it. But is it logical

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Speaker 9: he was there when these murders occurred? Extremely unlikely he

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Speaker 9: was there. There's nothing that puts him there other than

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Speaker 9: this false confession. And as John was saying earlier, the

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Speaker 9: confession didn't match the crime scene when you look at it.

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Speaker 9: I mean there was some huge discrepancies.

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Speaker 2: That weren't followed up.

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Speaker 9: You had a young investigator, his first homicide case she'd

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Speaker 9: ever investigated, and I'm reading a transcript going, you got

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Speaker 9: to be kidneyed. You didn't do any follow up. Plus

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Speaker 9: he didn't tape the confession. So when he gets to court,

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Speaker 9: very skillfully, the prosecutor only asked questions that were consistent

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Speaker 9: with the crime scene in the event and omitted the inconsistencies.

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Speaker 9: And as John was pouring out, he had a very

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Speaker 9: very ineffective defense attorney that didn't bring that to the

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Speaker 9: attention of the jury.

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Speaker 4: As far as details that corroborate the confession, at the

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Speaker 4: time of trial, the prosecutor pointed out to the jury

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Speaker 4: twenty six times that the police.

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Speaker 5: Found some O type blood at the crime scene, and

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Speaker 5: that I.

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Speaker 4: Was the only person involved in the case who had

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Speaker 4: Type old blood. The victims did not have TYPEO blood,

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Speaker 4: and my girlfriend did.

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Speaker 5: Not have type of blood.

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Speaker 4: The only person involved in the case was type old

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Speaker 4: blood was me, is what the prosecutor told the jury

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Speaker 4: twenty six times.

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Speaker 10: And it would.

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Speaker 4: Take another two and a half decades to find out

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Speaker 4: through DNA testing that indeed that was type of blood

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Speaker 4: that was left by somebody else. So the fact that

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Speaker 4: seemed to corroborate the concession at the time of the

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Speaker 4: trial is now shown to.

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Speaker 6: Actually prove the confession.

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Speaker 1: You could talk more about that, Sheriff Harding, what percentage

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Speaker 1: of the population has this type of blood? I think

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Speaker 1: it's about forty five percent, isn't it. It's pretty high, right,

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Speaker 1: So I mean that really is I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: ridiculous thing to try to pin anything on, but yet

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor mentioned it twenty sixth time. It's also worth

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Speaker 1: mentioning that Yens's lead trial lawyer was disbarred a few

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Speaker 1: years after your wrongful conviction, and he was disbarred because

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Speaker 1: of mental illness. Drugs were a factor in all of this,

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Speaker 1: and it was shown that he was suffering from this

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Speaker 1: during the time of your trial. So it's just another

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Speaker 1: important thing to recognize. This is a nightmare that no

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Speaker 1: one can imagine living through. You had been in jail

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Speaker 1: in England for quite some time before you even came

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Speaker 1: to trial. You had nothing in your life experience that

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Speaker 1: would prepare you for any of this, and now here

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Speaker 1: you are in the grip of the justice system in Virginia.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of an arch villain, right And what was

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Speaker 1: this like for you to go through this.

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Speaker 4: At that stage in nineteen ninety, I had already been

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Speaker 4: in prison for four years, fighting expeditions from England to

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Speaker 4: the United States. For most of those four years, I

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Speaker 4: was convinced that all my lawyers were convinced and everybody

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Speaker 4: thought that I would definitely be sentenced to death. So

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Speaker 4: I spent four years in prison in effect psychologically on

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Speaker 4: death row. Everybody, including my own team, told me that

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Speaker 4: I had no chance of avoiding the electric too, and

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Speaker 4: then at the last minute that was avoided. We went

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Speaker 4: an appeal as the European for the Human Rights and

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Speaker 4: I was brought back to America. And that sort of

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Speaker 4: thing has an effect on you psychologically, living in prison

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Speaker 4: for four years, believing that you're gonna die, put increasingly

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Speaker 4: in the electric two and I got brought back to Virginia.

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Speaker 4: Everybody hated me, everybody was convinced I was guilty, and

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Speaker 4: it was really scary, and I did not handle it well.

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Speaker 4: I did not handle it well.

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Speaker 6: But again you.

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Speaker 4: Have to put this against the background of my having

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Speaker 4: just spent three years under comminent breadth of death, then

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Speaker 4: coming into the new atmosphere and having to see Elizabeth Haysen,

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Speaker 4: a woman that that sacrificed myself for get up, understand,

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Speaker 4: and told you of herself and tell all these lies

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Speaker 4: to put me away in prison. And when I say

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Speaker 4: that she toljured herself, that's not just the claim I make.

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Speaker 4: Twenty six years later she actually admitted that in a

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Speaker 4: newspaper interview. She admitted that she toatured herself at that trial.

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Speaker 4: But at that time nobody knew that, and nobody cared.

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Speaker 4: They just wanted the witness at mean, and she did

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Speaker 4: that job, she me, and that and my own confession

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Speaker 4: and the type of blood that's what did me in.

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Speaker 1: Then the sock print, of course, was a ridiculous piece

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Speaker 1: of evidence that no serious person should have ever even

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Speaker 1: it shouldn't been allowed in court, and it shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: been in the way that was done was very devious

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Speaker 1: and tariff harding. I want to talk to you because

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to me that you know, YenS has assembled

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Speaker 1: this remarkable team and it's a great credit to him.

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Speaker 1: And you're an interesting character in this because you're a

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Speaker 1: conservative guy or a guy who's obviously law and order guy,

349
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Speaker 1: and yet you have devoted yourself selflessly and spent time

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Speaker 1: that you could have been doing anything else to hundreds

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Speaker 1: of hours to this case. So can you talk about that,

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Speaker 1: and then can you talk about the actual forensic evidence?

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Speaker 11: Right?

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Speaker 9: Well, Hiss attorney Stephen Rosenfield asked me to take a

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Speaker 9: look at part of the pardon petition to see if

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Speaker 9: I could find a way to strengthen it or to

357
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Speaker 9: see if he's miss missed.

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Speaker 2: Something in it.

359
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Speaker 9: And I told Steve at the beginning, I felt like

360
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Speaker 9: Ems was guilty based on everything I'd seen. I know

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Speaker 9: Governor Kane had tried to send him back to Germany.

362
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Speaker 9: I was opposed to that because I felt like he

363
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 9: was guilty. He shouldn't have been given any special consideration

364
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,880
Speaker 9: just because he was a German. But so Steve gave

365
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Speaker 9: me the case, said, won't take but a couple of hours. Well,

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Speaker 9: I ended up taking a bunch of stuff home at night.

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Speaker 9: My wife thought I lost my mind because I spent

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Speaker 9: basically the whole weekend the dining room table covered with

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Speaker 9: material that Steve gave me. I said, oh my god,

370
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Speaker 9: this is nothing like what was represented. And in conclusion,

371
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Speaker 9: I ended up writing a nineteen page letter to the

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Speaker 9: governor breaking down the closing arguments of the case. You know,

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Speaker 9: it's the strength of the government's case, last bite at

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Speaker 9: the Apple, and I.

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Speaker 2: Broke that down.

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Speaker 9: And then after that was published, I had another investigator

377
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Speaker 9: to work with me for twenty five years, said, let

378
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Speaker 9: me help form an FBI agent that I know that

379
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 9: I worked another case with jumped in and one of

380
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Speaker 9: the original investment bedroom investigator said he felt like Yen's

381
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 9: had been railroaded and was innocent also. So the four

382
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Speaker 9: of us have been working in collectively, we've given a

383
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Speaker 9: couple thousand hours. And you want to talk briefly about

384
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Speaker 9: to forensics. The old blood was very powerful, as was mentioned,

385
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Speaker 9: and I will say if I was on that jury,

386
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Speaker 9: I would have convicted him based on it the way

387
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 9: the evidence was represented so skillfully by the prosecutor. The

388
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Speaker 9: old blood now we know absolutely no one can test

389
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 9: the fact that it's not inserting. He's not been detected

390
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 9: in the crime scene. But two other males, one with

391
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 9: ad blood and one with old blood, had been detected

392
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Speaker 9: in the crime scene and we have not identified those people.

393
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Speaker 9: In my opinion, Bedford County should consider having an open

394
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 9: homicide investigation. Then you look at the next piece of

395
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 9: evidence that was pretty powerful.

396
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: The Commonwealth.

397
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 9: Originally got a certificate of analysis from the State Bureau

398
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Speaker 9: Forensics saying that the shoe in sox size was consistent

399
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 9: with a six and a half to seven and a

400
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 9: half woman shoe a man five or six. Well, they

401
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 9: originally had and this just blew my mind. They originally

402
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 9: had a small female as a prime suspect in this thing.

403
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 9: And the prosecutor wrote a letter and we got a

404
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 9: copy of it attached with a draft affid David saying

405
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 9: that he wanted this woman's blood, finger prints and shoe

406
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 9: impressions because her shoe was consistent with what was in

407
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 9: the crime scene. Now you turn around and go to trial,

408
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 9: you don't hear anything. The defense attorney brings nothing up.

409
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 9: They bring in a non qualified individual to testify. He

410
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 9: did a what we like to refer to as a

411
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 9: magic trick, created an overlay of an impression of Yen's

412
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 9: foot and said it basically fits like a.

413
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 2: Glove, reminds you of oja.

414
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 9: And he was even instructed he could not testify as

415
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 9: an expert. But when you look at the closing arguments

416
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 9: of the prosecutor, he says he can.

417
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: Only fit one man.

418
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Speaker 9: One man in the world could fit and he points

419
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 9: at yensuring and we know that's hooplaw, that's junk evidence.

420
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Speaker 9: And the same man that put this on in front

421
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 9: of the jury, Robert Halett, did the same thing in

422
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 9: another case where a man was given the death penalty,

423
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 9: and thank god, it took a few years. He did

424
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 9: not get executed. DNA proved he absolutely didn't do it.

425
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 9: So here you have the same junk science being used again.

426
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 9: There was a jura that gave an affidavit to the

427
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 9: attorneys that said it was tied six' six in the jury.

428
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 9: Room they wanted to take a look at the sock

429
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 9: and shoe evidence again and he said that's what turned the.

430
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 2: Tide and we know now that's. Ludicrous there are really two.

431
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 9: Parts you got a false confession and you also have

432
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 9: a false. Alibi you've Got elizabeth whose claims she stayed

433
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 9: at the hotel room and When yen's came. Back she,

434
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 9: Said YenS comes back that night after midnight and a

435
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 9: sheet covered in blood from head to toe in the rental,

436
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 9: vehicle And YenS asked her to clean it up with coca.

437
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 9: Cola yet that vehicle was tested with Luminol And i've

438
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 9: never had a case where blood had been, present Even

439
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 9: bleach had got it all, out no indication of any

440
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 9: blood at, all and was testimony from the folks that

441
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 9: the rental agency that the car was an amaculate, condition

442
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 9: no signs of Any coca.

443
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 2: Cola we have since.

444
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 9: Learned and digging in the little limited, information we can

445
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 9: see that there was actually blood found in the trap

446
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 9: of the shower of the master, bedroom and that shower

447
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 9: wall illuminated like fourth Of. July so it gives us

448
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 9: impression as, investigators at least one of the participants in

449
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 9: this homicide took a, Shower so why would he be

450
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 9: covered in blood from head to. Toe it's, Impossible Sheriff.

451
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: Harting on top of all the other, evidence AND fbi

452
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: agents Like Ed salzbach who came, forward and others to

453
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 1: say that there had been evidence that had been hidden

454
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 1: or not turned, over not disclosed in the way that

455
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: the law mandates that it must. Be there's also in

456
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: chapter eighteen of the, book a far far better. Thing

457
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: there's the story of the car in the woods, right

458
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 1: which would, again if you would think that this alone

459
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: would be enough to Send yen's, home you, know And

460
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: i'm going to quote from the book.

461
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: Again you.

462
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: Know in twenty, Eleven Tony, buchanan the retiredner of A

463
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: lynchburg area auto transmission, shop said that three to five

464
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: months after the murders in nineteen eighty, five a car

465
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: was towed into his shop for. Repairs it's undercarriage matted

466
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: with grass and, mud as if it had been sitting

467
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: in the woods for a. While the tow truck driver

468
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: Told buchanan the two Door chevrolet belonged to quote some college.

469
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: Kids and here's the important. Part he said in this

470
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 1: swarm statement that when he looked, inside he saw that

471
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: the floorboard on the driver's side was quote full of dry.

472
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: Blood beside the console between the front, seats also covered

473
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: in dried blood was a single edged hunting type, knife

474
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: the same type that was used to kill The. Haysums

475
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: Now i'm sitting, Here i've got chills just reading. That

476
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: and you, know he this same guy testified or swore

477
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: and affidated that the ends was not one of the

478
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: people who returned the. Car elizabeth was one and somebody

479
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: else was the. Other but yet here we go.

480
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 9: Again, yeah he, claimed it's just a, shame so much

481
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 9: time has. Passed he claimed that he called and spoke

482
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 9: To Ricky, gardner who was the lead investigator and now

483
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 9: chief deputy In, bedford and told him about. This Gardner

484
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 9: denazat says it didn't, happen so so much time has.

485
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 9: Passed some of the investigators did work that, lead and

486
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 9: we kind of ran it out because time was not

487
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 9: on our. Side we tried to find any, documentation material

488
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 9: checks and all that kind of. Stuff the banks just

489
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 9: don't have it from back in nineteen eighty. Five but

490
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 9: if they'd been followed up on properly at the, time same,

491
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 9: way if they had sent investigators to the hotel they'd stayed,

492
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 9: at it had cleared it up right away That ens was.

493
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: There she.

494
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 9: Wasn't it was his story of what he purchased was

495
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 9: consistent with the hotel bill which she said she purchased

496
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 9: when she stayed there was very inconsistent way over with.

497
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 2: The bill showed in.

498
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 9: It and there were three or four more things That

499
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 9: elizabeth says that occurred we can disprove with her. Alibi

500
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 9: but the bottom line that most frustrating for me is

501
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 9: everything that has come out of that woman's mouth is

502
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 9: provable that she's lying where it's highly suspect she's. Lying

503
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 9: we've looked very hard and everything At YenS has, said

504
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 9: and we have not caught him in a.

505
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: Line we were.

506
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: Talking about a case in which a couple was brutally,

507
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: murdered stabbed multiple, times each of them very bloody crime,

508
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: scene rich with biological evidence from the actual. Killers in,

509
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: theory you also had a logical explanation for, this in

510
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: That elizabeth had said multiple times that she had been

511
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: sexually abused by her, mother that her father may have

512
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: been involved in this in some. Way there was a

513
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: clear motive in that. Sense you had, drugs which no

514
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: one ever claimed that you were on, drugs but we

515
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: know that she was doing hard drugs and that she

516
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: was running with a very nefarious crew back then and

517
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,479
Speaker 1: would have had access to the type of people who

518
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: might commit a murder like. This people who knew you back,

519
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: then including some people for law, enforcement said that it

520
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: was Even elizabeth, said it was ludicrous to think that

521
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: you could have committed a brutal crime like this because

522
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: you're not a physically imposing, guy have had to overpower to.

523
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: Adults none of it ever made any, sense and there

524
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: should have. Been it should have been relatively. Simple and

525
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: now of, course so many people have weighed in on,

526
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: this Including Chuck, reid one of the original investigators in the,

527
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: case who has said in emphatic terms that it could

528
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: not have been, you that he doesn't.

529
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: Believe it was.

530
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: You and yet we still find ourselves in this situation

531
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: where we're still all trying to get you.

532
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 4: Out it's been, very very difficult for, me especially over

533
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 4: the last two and a half years since The parting

534
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 4: petition was submitted based on THE dna. Evidence it's been

535
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 4: really difficult for me because for thirty years we thought

536
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 4: there was NO dna evidence in this case that could prove,

537
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 4: minisence and then after thirty years in, prison it was

538
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 4: ACTUALLY i on the, phone worked my, Lawyer Steve, rosensfield

539
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 4: flipping through some old forensic. REPORTS i found THE na

540
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 4: and you, know that's what the parton petition is based.

541
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 4: On years, later we cannot get anybody to act on.

542
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 4: It and, that's you, know the thirty years of wishing

543
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 4: FOR dna and THEN i finally get THE dna and

544
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 4: then nobody is going to listen more accept it or

545
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 4: do anything about.

546
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: It maybe you guys can try to give me some

547
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: insight as to why this case is such a difficult

548
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: one to resolve in the face of such overwhelming evidence of.

549
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: Innocence how do you explain?

550
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 8: This i'll touch ON i can't explain, it AND i

551
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 8: think you Know jason from your work in the innocence.

552
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 8: World it's as frustrating as this, is it's not. Unusual

553
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 8: we've had cases before where we have to fight tooth

554
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 8: and nail to OBTAIN dna testing for one of our,

555
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 8: clients and we get THE dna, testing all the objections

556
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 8: of the local prosecutors and local law, enforcement we get

557
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 8: THE dna, testing it clears our client slash, inmate, whatever

558
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 8: and so he's, Cleared. Okay then it takes a year

559
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 8: procedurally to get him. Out oftentimes the prosecutor will, say,

560
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 8: WELL i don't really believe THE dna. Results we're going

561
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 8: to try you, again and so they bring him back

562
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 8: to the local jail where they can keep him forever.

563
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 8: Again as frustrating as it, Is i'm ashamed to, say

564
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 8: it's not that. Unusual most frustrating for me is the law.

565
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 9: Enforcement i'm in law, enforcement AND i Hope i'm respecting law.

566
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 9: Enforcement i'm a sitting, sheriff and yet the sitting sheriff

567
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 9: In Bedford county refuses to meet with me and even

568
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 9: discuss the. Case the lead investigator won't meet with the

569
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 9: four of us who've given thousands.

570
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: Of hours pro bone or we don't have anything in.

571
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 9: It we're just looking for. Justice we asked for one

572
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 9: hour and he says he doesn't have. Time, however we

573
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 9: do have him caught on, videotape say in a few years,

574
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 9: ago this happened thirty years, ago he was convicted in.

575
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: Court why do we need to go any further?

576
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 9: Then AND i think that's the, attitude which is it's

577
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 9: really shut down from an investigative. Standpoint we've not had

578
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 9: access to the investigative files or any further testing Because

579
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 9: i'm out of my jurisdiction and getting absolutely no cooperation From.

580
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: Bedford, yeah they won't even allow you to test THE

581
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: dna of two guys that we know are in for

582
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: committing similar crimes in another county In, virginia right. Who

583
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: we have no idea whether they committed this crime or,

584
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: not but there's some reason to believe that they.

585
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: There these two.

586
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 11: Guys knife demand multiple times.

587
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 9: To death within a few, days and that far from

588
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 9: The haysom, residents whether those victims were, located and these two,

589
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 9: folks one of them at least was acquord to his

590
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 9: background that we've read was involved in heavy drugs in

591
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 9: The lynchburg, area as we Believe elizabeth. Was she was

592
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 9: a omitted heroin. User AND dna should be in the data.

593
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 9: Bank they're both doing life for that. Murder and we simply,

594
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 9: asked would you take those profiles compare them to the crime,

595
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 9: scene and the state says can't do. It the jurisdiction

596
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 9: where they offense. Occurred they have to request.

597
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: It and to our, knowledge they're not doing, anything.

598
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: Which is just, remarkable right when you think about the

599
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: idea that they just refuse to test something that can

600
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: only prove like one or, another either these guys did

601
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: it or they. Didn't why wouldn't we want to?

602
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 9: Know we want to know from an investigative, standpoint do

603
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 9: we want to keep following those two guys as a

604
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 9: lead or can they be excluded based on THE dna

605
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 9: Very spady would take about three or four minutes.

606
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: To compare those bar. Codes it's so.

607
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,959
Speaker 9: Frustrating i'm used to working in my own. Jurisdiction if

608
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 9: i want something to. TESTED i Asked glad to do.

609
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: It they do. It IF i want to search, ONE

610
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: i get.

611
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 9: It IF i have witnesses and we have two or

612
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 9: three people that need to be interview in this case

613
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 9: that refuse to cooperate, WHATSOEVER i don't have any grandeur

614
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 9: authority to service a poena on. Them so IT'S i

615
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 9: really feel for The interisti's. PROJECT i see what they go.

616
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 9: Through now now That i'm on the other side of the,

617
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 9: FENCE i feel like you're operating with both hands tied

618
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 9: behind your. Back everything's working against. You so you've got

619
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 9: to put a lot more work and effort into it

620
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 9: than you really should and try to get to the,

621
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 9: truth which we all should, want but apparently we don't

622
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 9: all always want the truth and.

623
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: Justice SOMETHING i want to touch on BEFORE i turn

624
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,439
Speaker 1: over To john for a, second which is that back

625
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight or, nine with the support

626
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: Of Bishop sullivan and other luminaries both religious and political,

627
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 1: Figures Governor kine granted a conditional pard AND i guess

628
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: who'd say it would have allowed you to go back

629
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: To germany and then as literally as you were packing your,

630
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: bags the new governor came In governor, McDonell and he

631
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: revoked for the first time and then two hundred and

632
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: thirty four year history Of, virginia he revoked the previous

633
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: governor's order and decided that you would be kept in.

634
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 8: PRISON i think In yan's, case though we are pressing

635
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 8: ahead cautiously optimistic that the right people are listening to.

636
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 8: Us we are almost sanctimonious in our belief that we

637
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 8: are right and we're not gonna, stop slow, down or be.

638
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 8: Quiet and you, know we have several avenues. Left it's

639
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 8: not hopeless by any. Means we don't view it as.

640
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 8: Hopeless we think we can smell.

641
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 4: Victory john was just speaking about the multiple avenues. Available

642
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 4: most innocence cases have only one real, option and that's a,

643
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 4: pardon and that's usually a full parton and that makes

644
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 4: it very difficult because somebody has to admit that they

645
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 4: made a terrible. Mistake my case is a little bit

646
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 4: unusual and that the state actually has thille. Options they

647
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 4: have the option of an absolute, pardon which would be

648
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: to declare my innocence and actually admit what really.

649
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 5: Happened which was that this is a wrongful.

650
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 4: Conviction but they have twotter. Options they have a conditional,

651
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 4: pardon which would be not to Say i'm actually, innocent

652
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 4: just to say there's a lot of questions and a

653
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 4: lot of, doubts.

654
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 5: You can't be.

655
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 4: Sure and then there's a third, option and that would be.

656
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 4: Tart so one of the mystifying things about my case

657
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 4: in comparison to other, cases is that they have a

658
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 4: whole smorgus board of options to choose from full pardon

659
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 4: or absolutely part conditional pardon and then through and they're

660
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 4: choosing not to exercise any of these.

661
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 1: OPTIONS i recently met Doctor, phil, who before he became

662
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: THE tv star that's known In love by, millions had

663
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: been putting his various degrees in psychology and medicine to

664
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: good use in his jury, consultancy business courtroom. Sciences Doctor,

665
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: phil as you, know advocates for the wrongfully. Convicted he's

666
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: been doing it for a long, time, so as you can,

667
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: imagine we hit it off and decided to sit down

668
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: for an. Interview the crazy thing was during that, Interview

669
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: yen's happened to call, me as he did over the

670
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: last several, years not. Infrequently when he, called it turned

671
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: out to be a really powerful meeting of the, minds

672
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 1: and we sensed immediately that doctor phil might be able

673
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: to help him and us work through this parole board

674
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,479
Speaker 1: stalemate that we've been stuck in for such an interminably long.

675
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 12: Time, Peter and you've been in how long?

676
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 13: Now thirty three, years six months and thirteen?

677
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 12: Days good? Lord what's the stumbling block with the appellate,

678
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 12: courts with the people that have the ability to grant?

679
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 12: Clemency what do they tell you is the reason you're

680
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 12: still in. Jail that's one of the.

681
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 10: Problems we're not getting any. Communication the problem is is

682
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 10: that from the very, beginning from the nineteen, eighties this

683
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 10: was a very high profile, crime so a lot of

684
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 10: politicians used it in political campaigns to get themselves elected

685
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 10: and re elected basically by beating up on. Me the

686
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 10: last instance of that was in late twenty, fifteen so

687
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 10: that lasted for twenty nine. Years one politician after another

688
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 10: tried to carry the voters favor by saying That jenserring

689
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 10: is a. Monster and then after thirty, years THE dna

690
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 10: comes out and THE dna shows that the very same

691
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 10: blood samples that they use to convict me with at

692
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 10: my trial in nineteen ninety once they've BEEN dna tested

693
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 10: turned out to be somebody else's, blood not, Mine and

694
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 10: everybody In virginia who's been beating up on, me all the,

695
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 10: politicians have been beating up on me for all these,

696
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 10: decades now looks stupid and it's, very very difficult to

697
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 10: admit you've made a, mistake and that appears to be

698
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 10: the problem In virginia if they admit That i'm, innocent

699
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 10: and they're basically admitting that a long line of politicians

700
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 10: going back to the nineteen, eighties which is a get.

701
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: Wrong that being, said, YES i don't want to leave this.

702
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 1: Out we feel like there's light at the very near

703
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: end of the. Tunnel potentially we won't believe it till

704
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: we see. It but you, Know John grisham has made

705
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: this a very personal, cause arguably the most Prominent virginian

706
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: of these, times and so have so many. Others and

707
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: The Parole board is actually run By Adrian, bennett who

708
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: is a you, KNOW i think by anybody's, definition she's

709
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,479
Speaker 1: a person who believes in. Fairness and now the whole

710
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: state has gone. Blue so we're post election and we're

711
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: all hoping That Governor northam is going to do the right,

712
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: thing and that either the parole board will see clear

713
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: to Send YenS back To germany to live out his

714
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: days of making, speeches writing books as he, does contributing to.

715
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: Society i've made the point again and again that in

716
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: these thirty three plus years in, prison, yet how many

717
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: infractions have you?

718
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 4: Had?

719
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 13: None not, one not a single infraction in thirty three

720
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 13: and a half, Years, Maine that's virtually.

721
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 12: Impossible you must not go to THE tv room at.

722
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 12: NIGHT i work out a.

723
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 2: Lot, yeah you, Know.

724
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 10: I've been told it's either unique or nearly unique by

725
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 10: prison staff. Members but of course you know that's all

726
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 10: well and. Good, ultimately what really, matters, though is you

727
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 10: KNOW i didn't do. THIS i did not Kill derek

728
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 10: And Nancy. HAYSEN i didn't find out about it then sol.

729
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 10: Afterwards you, know my only role in this was this

730
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 10: terrible mistake of trying to Save elizabeth's life from execution

731
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 10: back then in the electric. Chair the key reason to

732
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 10: let me go is not BECAUSE i didn't break any prison.

733
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 10: Rules the key reason to let me go is BECAUSE

734
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 10: i did not do. This and it's not just me saying.

735
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 10: It it's THE dna saying. It we have two national

736
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 10: experts and a bunch of law enforcement officers who've looked

737
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 10: at THE dna and the evidence in this, case and

738
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 10: they've all come to the same. Conclusion it wasn't. Me

739
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 10: the evidence pointed two other men who have not been.

740
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 10: Identified there's blood AND dna from two other men at

741
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 10: that crime, scene as well As elizabeth fingerprints and her

742
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 10: soide friend of, hers and.

743
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 5: Of course she.

744
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 10: Said she did.

745
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 12: It that's obviously not been. Enough what do you think is?

746
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 13: Missing, NO i, MEAN i think in any other state

747
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 13: that would have been.

748
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 12: Enough if you're not in any other, state you're in this.

749
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 12: State what do you think's? Missing political?

750
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 10: Courage AND i think now after the election On november,

751
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 10: fifth when The democrats took over The General assembly here In,

752
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 10: virginia there is no longer any reason for The democratic

753
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 10: govern A democratic parole board to fear releasing. Me AND

754
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 10: i hope that'll happen. Soon it's been a long. Time

755
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 10: my petition has been pending for more than three, years

756
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 10: so it's time to make a.

757
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 12: Decision, well it's way past time to make a. Decision

758
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 12: but CAN i give you a couple of thoughts about?

759
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 7: This?

760
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 14: Uh.

761
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 12: HUH i just say this from having been in the

762
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 12: system for a, long long. Time what has to happen

763
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 12: is we've got to find a way to give them

764
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 12: a face saving way out of, this a face saving

765
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 12: way to say yes instead of. No now you're before

766
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 12: the pardoning parole, board, right what is the narrative to

767
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 12: them where their currency is met in Saying, okay enough's?

768
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,399
Speaker 12: Enough too much is too? Much this is too. Much

769
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 12: we need to turn this man. Loose what is in

770
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 12: there that they've not heard? Before because you've got to

771
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 12: give these people something to hang their hat on so

772
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 12: they can defend it when they're asked questions about, it

773
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 12: so there is a public position they can take that's face.

774
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 12: Saving this is a high profile, case which is sweet.

775
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 12: Poison there's high profile and everybody knows about. It that's

776
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 12: the good. News everybody knows about. It that's the bad.

777
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: News we've gotten to a place, NOW i believe Where

778
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 1: republican governors have granted dozens or even hundreds of clemencies and.

779
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: Pardons President obama and his last Flourish they're granted seventeen

780
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: hundred and there's not a peep from any. Side there's nobody, Going,

781
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: oh these crazy people are letting all these. Nobody it's

782
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: not a thing. ANYMORE i don't think it's even makes you.

783
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: Know in The ends's, case because it was a high profile,

784
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: case maybe it makes the news for a day or.

785
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: Two and let me just.

786
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 10: Interrupt it briefly and say that they're locking us up

787
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 10: for Count while they're doing, THAT i want to address

788
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 10: briefly Doctor phillip's question about a narrative that could be

789
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 10: used to change people's. Minds none of the people who

790
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 10: are making decision today are in any way responsible for

791
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 10: the mistakes that were originally made thirty three years. Ago

792
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 10: they're fixing the. Problem and The United states has advanced

793
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 10: in those thirty three, years and the issue of wrontal

794
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 10: convictions is now much more widely. Understood back, then the

795
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 10: idea that somebody in listen might get convicted would seem far.

796
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 10: FETCHED i think nowadays it's much more widely. Accepted the

797
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:31,919
Speaker 10: other thing is is that there have been some high

798
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 10: profile wrongtal convictions here In virginia prior to, mine most

799
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 10: recently The norfolk four, case which received national, attention which

800
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 10: also involved false confessions AND, dna AND i think that's

801
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 10: the narrative THAT i think they can hang their hat

802
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 10: on in this particular. Case in this, case all they

803
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 10: really had was my false confession and the type of

804
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 10: blood at the crime. Scene and the prosecutor told the

805
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 10: jury twenty six times that the only person who could

806
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 10: have left that type of blood was, answering and he

807
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 10: made a mistake because they simply didn't HAVE dna back.

808
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 10: Then thirty years, later THEY dna test that type of

809
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 10: blood and it turns out it's somebody. Else's it was

810
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 10: not possible to know this back. Then they did the

811
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 10: best they. Could back in the nineteen eighties and nineteen

812
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 10: ninety they did the best they could with the technology they.

813
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 10: Had all they had was blood. Typing but now they

814
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 10: have new TECHNOLOGY, dna and it turns out that, yes

815
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 10: that was type of blood at the crime, scene but

816
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 10: it was not my type of. Blood forty three percent

817
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 10: of the population Have TYPE o, Blood but THE dna is.

818
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 10: Different it's somebody else's. Blood so that's the narrative THAT

819
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 10: i would say can swing.

820
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 12: This that's pretty damn.

821
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 13: Compelling, ultimately every wrongful conviction is about admitting that somebody

822
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 13: screwed up big.

823
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 10: Time and you, know there's only so far you can

824
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 10: help them with.

825
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 4: That they're going to.

826
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 10: Happen man up and admit. That but the people who

827
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 10: are being asked to fix the problem now were not

828
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 10: the people who made a mistake back. Then this is

829
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 10: a governor who was in college WHEN i was in. College,

830
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 10: okay he was a few years ahead of, me but

831
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 10: he's not responsible for what happened back. Then he was

832
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 10: going to mid school when my life was. Exploding thank

833
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 10: you for USING, gtl.

834
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: And NOW i can share with you some, really really incredible.

835
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: News the Ends surrey has finally been granted. PAROLE i

836
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: heard this. NEWS i was on a train To delaware

837
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: to give a talk with criminals US As reform AND

838
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: i got a call about five o'clock in the. Afternoon,

839
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: NOW i had recently done an interview With Rolling stone

840
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: magazine and at the very end of the, interview the

841
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: reporter asked, me do you ever? Cry AND i, said, truthfully,

842
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: no only at the. Movies, Well i'm not ashamed to

843
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: tell you now THAT i didn't make it through that

844
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: phone call without breaking. Down and it's funny BECAUSE i

845
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: called the sheriff not too. Long at. FIRST i Called

846
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: Amanda knox And amanda has course has done work on

847
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: behalf Of yen's for quite a while now and did

848
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 1: a whole season of her Podcast The Truth About True

849
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: crime on The Ensuring. Case AND i Called amanda and

850
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: we cried, together all.

851
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 7: YEAH i, Mean yen's is such a special, person AND

852
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 7: i mean every you, know everyone who's innocent deserves to

853
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 7: get out as soon as. Possible it's just like. THIS i,

854
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 7: Mean i've just been on the other you, know end

855
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 7: of those line again talking about the day that he

856
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 7: gets out and like knowing, that LIKE i know what

857
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 7: it feels like to like fantasize about that day and

858
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 7: not knowing if it's going to. Happen AND i didn't

859
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 7: know what was gonna happen for. Him well and now

860
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 7: and now you, know he has asked me, to you,

861
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 7: know be his big, sister which is amazing Because i'm

862
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 7: way younger than, him but he's so, good Like i'm

863
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 7: gonna need you to be my big sister and help

864
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 7: walk me through this like process of being a free.

865
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 7: Person AND i was, like, Dude i'm, there and.

866
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 11: NOW i guess that it's really.

867
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 7: Exciting, OH i think that he may end up getting you,

868
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 7: know pardon better get from the outside of The, yes he

869
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 7: has so much more life that he can. Live he

870
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 7: can fight the fight from out here now and he

871
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 7: can do it with, help and he cannot be. Alone

872
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 7: it's it's a big. Difference so, Yeah i'm just so

873
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 7: excited for, him getting.

874
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 4: Him out of what needed to.

875
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 11: HAPPEN i can't remember that of my.

876
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 5: Friends oh, yes it's here, Alright.

877
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 7: Amanda where are you right? Now i'm actually standing outside

878
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 7: of the analytics. CLUB i was about to go jog

879
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 7: on the ellistical. One like, NOW i don't even know

880
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 7: what to do with. Myself, Okay, well if you get any,

881
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 7: news let me.

882
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,439
Speaker 13: Know he calls, Me.

883
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 4: I'll, Call i'll, person.

884
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 7: Okay Because i'm so so happy for, him AND i

885
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 7: just hope that he's okay right now and and that

886
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 7: he's not alone right.

887
00:49:46,400 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 3: Now m.

888
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 11: Hm you.

889
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: Know Rachel ryan is one of the hosts Of Small,

890
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 1: Town Big, crime a deep dive serial podcast About ensurring

891
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: and The hasten, murders including an investigation into the two

892
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: unknown sources OF dna at the crime. Scene you can

893
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: find it wherever you get your, podcast but don't wait subscribe.

894
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: Now she was just about to Interview Chip harding when

895
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: the news had started trickling into us and the details

896
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: were still a little. Unclear the sound was rolling on

897
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: chip as he took my.

898
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:35,839
Speaker 2: CALL i don't put my phone over.

899
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 11: Here thanks Using, hey jameson you, Know i'm kind of

900
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,959
Speaker 11: breaking right. NOW i Call. Rosenfield he hadn't heard wrote.

901
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 9: It that just sort of thing out you got, that, okay.

902
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 11: Oh we, know and being tipped by, both he turned

903
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 11: OUT i should be.

904
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 9: DEPORTED i guess she's going back To, CANADA i, guess

905
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 9: and he'll be going back To germany.

906
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:06,479
Speaker 11: And Steve roseenveld and and didn't.

907
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 9: Notify we Assume yen's, KNOWS i mean because she SAID

908
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 9: i thank you From.

909
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 11: YenS SO i guess he's been told kind of odd

910
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 11: way to handle something like, This but so he's no

911
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 11: keeping his secret right. Now, No, no it's it's the.

912
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 11: Idea they associated press as it.

913
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 1: Now and it's.

914
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 11: Confirmed, yes, Poor oh my, god it's an incredible watch.

915
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 10: It i'm A i'm talking to.

916
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 1: You, second BECAUSE i spoke To amanda AND i was

917
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: literally crying like a.

918
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 11: Baby, yeah where you gonna get? Me they getting ready

919
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 11: to interview me on camera. Soon let me come up

920
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 11: to you a little while.

921
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 2: You are feeling, Right.

922
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 3: I'm.

923
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 11: ASTHETIC i, mean what a great thing have.

924
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 2: Him he's been locked up for thirty three.

925
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,240
Speaker 9: Years he's missed his, twenties his, thirties and his, forties

926
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 9: so it's.

927
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 2: Time it's time to let him.

928
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 11: Go.

929
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: Now she's also been granted.

930
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 12: Parole we.

931
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 9: UNDERSTAND i understand she has been granted, parole and you,

932
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 9: know as a law enforcement, ULSER i don't have any

933
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 9: objection to that. Either if she was in fact sexually

934
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 9: abused by her, mom you, know if that was the.

935
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 9: CASE i think if it had gone that route back

936
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 9: when she originally went to, trial this whole thing would

937
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 9: have turn that differently than it.

938
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: DID i, mean this came out in sort of a.

939
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 4: STRAND i, mean this was reported by the media before

940
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 4: you were.

941
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: NOTIFIED i, was.

942
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 9: YEAH i IMMEDIATELY i got a call from someone in

943
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 9: the media asking my, reaction AND i didn't know to,

944
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 9: what and he told, me AND i immediately called his primary,

945
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 9: Attorney Stephen, rosenfield who's given probably four thousand hours on his,

946
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 9: case and he had not. Heard so we were quite

947
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 9: shocked that it came out through the media. First but

948
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,959
Speaker 9: we're not complaining because it appears he's.

949
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 4: Gone on home and that IS i, mean you've put

950
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 4: years and hours how?

951
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 9: Long, Yeah i've probably put me one thousand hours in on.

952
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 9: It Now i'm not looking for any. Creditor's tons of

953
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 9: people have given the young man hundreds and hundreds and

954
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 9: hundreds of, hours what cause they believe in.

955
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 5: Assistence, yeah it's an emotional.

956
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 11: Thing thank you so.

957
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 1: MUCH i am beyond happy to announce That YenS is

958
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,720
Speaker 1: officially out of ice custody and out of custody, period

959
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: and he's finally back home in his home country Of,

960
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 1: germany which he hasn't seen, or come to think of,

961
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: it he hasn't even seen. It tree ponder that for

962
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: a second of any kind since nineteen eighty, Six and

963
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: just to put some context behind, that the Fucking Berlin

964
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: wall was up the last time he was, there and

965
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: we were all smack dab in the middle of the

966
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 1: threat of full scale nuclear war between The United states And.

967
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: Russia but, Anyway YenS is finally able to make the

968
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: most of his, life AND i know that all of

969
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: us that have played roles large and small in his

970
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: newfound freedom can't wait to celebrate with. Him i'll leave

971
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: you with the remainder of our original, interview and of

972
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: course the closing, arguments WHICH i must say sounds a

973
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: hell of a lot better coming from what we now

974
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: know is a freeman's.

975
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 4: MOUTH i had a really really bad trial.

976
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 14: Lawyer who was eventually the sparred what you. Mentioned But

977
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 14: i've also had really really fantastic losses fighting for, me

978
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 14: including the Former Deputy Attorney, General Gale star And, marshall

979
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 14: Also gilda and.

980
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 4: This was in the, movie and of Course Steve, rosensfield

981
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 4: who has suffered with me not in so many, years

982
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 4: And Steve.

983
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 5: Markett you, know.

984
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 4: There's you, know lawyers kept a lot of, blame but

985
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 4: there were some really really fantastic human beings working as.

986
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 4: Lawyers and then you know the.

987
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 5: Staffing i've had.

988
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 4: Wonderful people like you And Joan permission And Martin, seen you,

989
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 4: know h to people who really have no important and

990
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 4: better seems to do with their life than to worry about,

991
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 4: me you, know stepping into my life and how it about.

992
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 4: Me that's been really really. Encouraging that's given me, hope

993
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 4: and it gives me hope to try to hold on

994
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 4: a little while longer and see whether this can be

995
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 4: resolved in somewhat super fan BEFORE i buy a long

996
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 4: eight you know that's that been in here FOR i

997
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 4: can tell you exactly eleven, thousand nine hundred and forty five, days,

998
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 4: okay eleven. Days i've been in here every two, years

999
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 4: eight months and eleven, days and it hasn't been.

1000
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 7: Easy but that's what guide.

1001
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 5: Me he's wonderful people behind.

1002
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 1: Me you do have an extraordinary, team including the leaders

1003
00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: Of germany the past and. PRESENT i want to tell

1004
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: the audience there's the Movie killing For love and the

1005
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: book is a far far better thing By Yen starting

1006
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: And Bill, sizemore a far far better. Thing and then

1007
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,479
Speaker 1: this is the part of the show that we've become known.

1008
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: For IT'S i think everyone's favorite part of the.

1009
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 2: Show it's.

1010
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: Mine and this is a part of the show WHERE

1011
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 1: i get to thank our. Guests in this, case of

1012
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 1: Course John, Grisham, john thanks for being. Here And Sheriff,

1013
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: Harding Sheriff Chip, harving Album Wall, accounting of course You

1014
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 1: yen's thanks for participating in this and sharing your thoughts

1015
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: and experience and educating our. AUDIENCE i want to turn

1016
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: it over to each of, you just for brief closing

1017
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 1: thoughts and of course we'll end with You yen, Anyway,

1018
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: john final thoughts.

1019
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 8: As far As, Yeah i've said it, before these wrawful

1020
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 8: conviction stories are always compelling and tempting from my point

1021
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 8: of view to right about to tell the fantastic stories

1022
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 8: as said as they, are but to also hopefully raise.

1023
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 8: AWARENESS i hope there's a happy. Ending we believe it's

1024
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 8: gonna be a happy ending because we're all working hard

1025
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 8: with a game plan to Get yen's out and then

1026
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 8: getting back To, germany And yenz AND i have this

1027
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 8: kind of a running gag that one day soon we're

1028
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 8: going to be drinking a beer together In munich At.

1029
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: Octoberfest i'm coming, too and by the, way he gonna

1030
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: have the same. Deal so you, KNOW i don't want

1031
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 1: to make you not feel, special but we got the

1032
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: same you paying.

1033
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 2: For, It, john we're all.

1034
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 8: Invited we're all invited To.

1035
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: Octoberfest that's, Right Sheriff harding final.

1036
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 9: Thoughts UNTIL i got involved in this kind of, WORK

1037
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 9: i always thought that you were found guilty beyond a reasonable.

1038
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 9: Doubt but it looks like In, america once you're found,

1039
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 9: guilty to be found.

1040
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 2: Innocent, oh.

1041
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 9: Pardon it almost has to be your innocent beyond a

1042
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 9: shadow of a. Doubt the standard is way too. High

1043
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 9: it's shameful for me to have fifty years in the

1044
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 9: justice system and to see the. Pushback not just in this,

1045
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 9: case But i've read three or four hundred cases from

1046
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 9: prosecutors in law enforcement that don't man up and step

1047
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 9: up and admit they make mistakes and seek the. Truth

1048
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 9: and no one has ever held accountable in the first

1049
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 9: two hundred and fifty cases That Brandon garrett, examined in

1050
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 9: many cases prosecutors with hell exculpatory.

1051
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 2: Evidence so did law.

1052
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 9: Enforcement and that one single case that one officer ever

1053
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 9: go to trial or spend one day in.

1054
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 2: Jail so we can't police.

1055
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 9: Ourselves how do we anticipate the public's going to have

1056
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 9: the confidence in us to police?

1057
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 1: Them and, now saving the best for last yen your final.

1058
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 11: Thoughts thank.

1059
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 4: YOU i think it's important for your audience to realize

1060
00:58:53,280 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 4: that they're estimated one hundred. Thousand, lastly in The United,

1061
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 4: states that's a small.

1062
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 5: City and you Know i'm far.

1063
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 4: From the only.

1064
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 6: One i'm, really really so grateful to the three of.

1065
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 6: You John grisham to partying And jason farm for drawing

1066
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 6: attention to my.

1067
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 4: Case but let's not forget the other ninety nine victims

1068
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 4: of mischaracters of. Justice one of the things THAT i

1069
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 4: really would hope for is that If i'm ever, RELEASED

1070
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 4: i can maybe help draw attention to all those other

1071
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 4: people and work towards systemic changes so that things like

1072
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 4: this don't happen to other. People in YouTube it's this

1073
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 4: is you, know something to think. About there's one hundred

1074
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 4: thousand innocent people in prison in The United.

1075
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 6: States somebody should be really stablished by.

1076
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 5: That and heal your audience as.

1077
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 4: Well AND i want to thank you for giving this

1078
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 4: opportunity to speak today talk About thank You.

1079
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: Yans you have all my. RESPECT i look forward to

1080
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: working with you And i'll see you For October. Fest

1081
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 1: don't forget to give us a fantastic. Review wherever you

1082
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: get your, podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud

1083
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 1: donor to THE Nisis, project AND i really hope you'll

1084
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1085
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To Innocence project dot

1086
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd

1087
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: like to thank our production Team Connor hall And Kevin.

1088
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: Wartis the music in the show is by three TIME

1089
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