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Speaker 1: We're back better than ever, right, Phil, Yes, we're back.

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Speaker 1: We're better than ever. It's t HC. Thanks for sitting

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Speaker 1: through the best ofs. We appreciate it. Had two great

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Speaker 1: years of podcast. We're gonna have a third even greater year,

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Speaker 1: and so we're excited about that. We're gonna get rolling.

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Speaker 1: We've got a lot of things we want to talk

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Speaker 1: about this year, a lot of things that covered we've

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Speaker 1: been back here. The Mediator office is planning playing some

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Speaker 1: cool trips, segments, cool interview guests, trying to get the

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Speaker 1: best of the best. We got a lot of great

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Speaker 1: through lines and topics we're gonna try to cover this year.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna try to include a lot of controversies, a

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Speaker 1: lot of interesting people, keep doing what we've been doing

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Speaker 1: in the past. So keep this as our promise, Phil,

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Speaker 1: Really it's Phil's promise to make this the best year ever.

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Speaker 1: That's true. That was my idea. I pitched it to you.

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Speaker 1: I said, hey, Ben, what do you think about making

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Speaker 1: the best year of THC? Was like, absolutely not. I

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Speaker 1: am tired. I took some convincing, but yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: he came came around. So we're gonna We're gonna make

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Speaker 1: it the best yer. We're we're dedicated to make this

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Speaker 1: podcast better. Come along for the ride with us in

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Speaker 1: But for now this episode, we're talking about uh fills

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Speaker 1: a backstabbard. There's a poem involved. We have two teenagers

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Speaker 1: out of Pennsylvania were being charged with animal cruelty over

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Speaker 1: a video of them abusing a deer that they had shot.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about that. We're gonna get into that, uh,

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Speaker 1: pretty crazy turn of events. And then we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: to Dr James Tantillo from Cornell, a pretty famous ethicist.

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Speaker 1: He's done a lot of thinking on hunting and hunting

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Speaker 1: ethics and philosophies and why hunting makes us better people.

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Speaker 1: So stick around to hear that as well. We're getting

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Speaker 1: going episode in joy. I guess I grew up on

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Speaker 1: an older road, a pedal to the meadow. I always

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Speaker 1: did what I told until I found out that my

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Speaker 1: brand new clothes a game second hand from the rich

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Speaker 1: kids next door. And I grew up fast. I guess

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Speaker 1: I grew up mean. They have a thousand things inside

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Speaker 1: of my head I wish I ain't seen, And now

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to a real bad dream of being

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Speaker 1: and like I'm coming apart of it seems. But thank

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Speaker 1: you Jack Daniel, No hey, everybody welcomed Episode ninety seven

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Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective. It's we're back and better than ever.

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Speaker 1: We're in a month, Hig eight is Joe a month?

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Speaker 1: We were gone a month? Did you miss us? Well?

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Speaker 1: You I was here though, Yeah, I didn't miss you.

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Speaker 1: You didn't miss me because I saw you. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: saw me. Everybody else missed you. Yeah, I hope you. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we were still coming at you every week, but it

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Speaker 1: was best ofs and we know best ofs aren't all

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Speaker 1: that exciting to some people. Other people, maybe they are.

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Speaker 1: But we're back. I think we're better than ever. Phil,

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Speaker 1: you think we're better than ever. I think it's yet

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Speaker 1: to be seen. I think we'll find out. We intend

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Speaker 1: to be better than ever, and I think that's it's

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Speaker 1: the thought that counts. So we're gonna spoil you, spoil

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Speaker 1: you listeners with gifts in that's the way we're gonna

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Speaker 1: bribe you into leaving us good reviews and doing doing

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Speaker 1: good things for the podcast. So so don't worry. But

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Speaker 1: we were joined by Anthony Locado Ben fresh back from Mexico. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was I was terrific. Man. We were um down

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Speaker 1: in Sonora, Mexico, just um south of Arizona, hunting, cous dear.

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Speaker 1: It is a spectacular country, really fun hunting. You've done it.

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Speaker 1: Um the deer so cool. It's challenging, interesting and um man,

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Speaker 1: it's just beautiful. You know you're hunting on these uh

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Speaker 1: hunter on this massive cattle ranch and it's uh, it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit like going back in time. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're staying in old stone building. This ranch is off

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Speaker 1: the grid. It is worked by traditional cowboys that care

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Speaker 1: um on horseback, who do not when their pictures take it.

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Speaker 1: I found out last year and like, I'll take your picture.

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Speaker 1: That'd be cool or great for the graham. Nope, it

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Speaker 1: pointed to his gun, like I'm just gonna keep riding.

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Speaker 1: You're not gonna do anything, but you'll be out there hunting.

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Speaker 1: And then you run across uh, you know with a

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Speaker 1: carrol on a horseback with a couple of dogs and

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Speaker 1: you know, old lover action rifle on a scabbard, and

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Speaker 1: you know he's just making his loop and living out there.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a real special place. It's it's a

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Speaker 1: wonderful thing, especially those of you that are, you know,

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Speaker 1: hunt locally only. When you can travel to hunt like that,

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Speaker 1: you get immersed in the culture of the place and

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Speaker 1: kind of what you transport your style of hunting to

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Speaker 1: a place in a different you know, and like you said,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like a different time down there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really is. Crossing the border is always interesting, and

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Speaker 1: so I'm glad you guys got to go. I paybody

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Speaker 1: needs an update. Not yet, I'm honestly not yet a

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Speaker 1: father because I'm already a father. I'm not yet a

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Speaker 1: double father, not two time father, one time father. As

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Speaker 1: of right now, I think you could technically call me

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Speaker 1: a two time father. We've had for those who been asking,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people preached out via the instagrams and

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Speaker 1: even a couple of emails as to how everything's going.

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Speaker 1: I want to say it didn't go. It's not going

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Speaker 1: great to this point, but everybody is is relatively happy

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Speaker 1: and healthy, and we're looking to have the baby anytime now.

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Speaker 1: So just a quick update. You don't want to hear

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Speaker 1: my sob story about what we've been doing. But while uh,

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Speaker 1: Anthony and team and Cal and Steve were all down

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Speaker 1: in Mexico, I was hanging out in the hospital. Um,

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Speaker 1: and so just quick thanks to the folks in the

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Speaker 1: Bozeman Hospital. Like nurses and doctors are legit heroes. We

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Speaker 1: all know this. Yeah, we'll talk about that, and they

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Speaker 1: do good work. We wanna talk about that enough. We

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Speaker 1: talked about sports and musicians. My wife wanted to watch

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Speaker 1: last night the SAG Awards, and I just felt ill

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Speaker 1: watching these people even know if that is Screen Actors Guild.

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Speaker 1: We just watching these people that really just played around

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Speaker 1: for a living, pretend to be important. And I just

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Speaker 1: after spending days with real important people, who whose lives

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Speaker 1: a lot of people depend on for them to save

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Speaker 1: them for me, we're in there asking questions, how do

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Speaker 1: we do this? What do we do to have this

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Speaker 1: child safely? And all these things? It's amazing. So thanks

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Speaker 1: to those folks. And my god, if you see one,

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Speaker 1: thank a military member you see him. If you think

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Speaker 1: see a nurse or doctor, thank them too, because my god,

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Speaker 1: they they do some of the most important work on

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Speaker 1: this earth. I would say. So we're gonna get into

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Speaker 1: the show and we're gonna keep doing this no matter

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Speaker 1: what happens. Here's uncollective. Um, phil, have you ever been

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Speaker 1: to New Zealand? Hey have not would you like to go?

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Speaker 1: I love to I know that there are dragons and elves?

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Speaker 1: What and Hobbits? What are there? Not? They're not? Oh

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Speaker 1: I've been misled. What do you mean? Uh? If I

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Speaker 1: took you to New Zealand, you'd want to go, like

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Speaker 1: tour the Hobbit town or whatever? For sure? Ye? What

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Speaker 1: what else is there to do? Can you get in here?

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Speaker 1: You would't want to go to hobbiton? In all honesty,

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Speaker 1: it looks gorgeous and I have a I have a

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Speaker 1: feeling you have more to say on the topic. It's

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Speaker 1: a big, big deal. Uh, First Light. You guys all

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Speaker 1: know First Light. Um, they're gonna send somebody out there

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Speaker 1: in listener Land or elsewhere to New Zealand, and they're

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Speaker 1: gonna send them there with me. I'm just gonna go, Joe,

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go. I'm just gonna go and watch.

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Speaker 1: Probably nobody's telling me if I'm gonna get to do

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Speaker 1: what I'm gonna get to do. But I'm definitely gonna

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Speaker 1: go watch a lot of movies on the plane and

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Speaker 1: then walk behind whoever wins. You're gonna watch Lord of

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Speaker 1: the Rings on the way there, I'll probably do. You

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Speaker 1: can study the landscape, yeah, because that's yep, so I'll

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Speaker 1: know it's like scouting, ye, watching that purest form of

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Speaker 1: the scouting there is ye. So that's what's happening. You

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Speaker 1: can win a nine day, eight night that's a long

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Speaker 1: time hunt. People don't win hunts for that long. So

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Speaker 1: I'm a little nervous about who might go with me.

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Speaker 1: So they're the hunter. I just assumed you were the

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Speaker 1: hunter and they were just your guiding gun bear. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, if I was making a call, you'd be

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Speaker 1: like one one eight night guided trip where you walk

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Speaker 1: behind better Brian when he shoots whatever he wants. You

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Speaker 1: have to carry his gun most of the time. You

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Speaker 1: carry his gun late night foot massages, and you'll hang

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Speaker 1: his clothes up when he gets sweaty. But now, in

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Speaker 1: all honestly, you're gonna get a weather be rifle package.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna get some stuff from bench made knives, and

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Speaker 1: you're gonna get kidded out in first light. And we're

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Speaker 1: going to fly across the world the Southern Hemisphere, and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna go to the South Island, New Zealand. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna hunt Himil and Tar, which I've done a few times.

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Speaker 1: It is beautiful. Have you ever been there? I've had

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Speaker 1: been in New Zealand and hunted tar Um. Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: The mountains are spectacular and those animals are incredible best

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Speaker 1: and they're delicious. Don't let their smell look their general

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Speaker 1: presence full you. They're delicious. Yeah, they're big, hairy goat

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Speaker 1: ye kind of deal. And um, they are delicious. They smell,

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Speaker 1: but they're delicious. Uh. And so you're gonna get all

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Speaker 1: of that and we're gonna do it sometime in May.

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Speaker 1: You have until February twenty nine of this year to enter.

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Speaker 1: And if you go over the first Light dot com,

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Speaker 1: it's first Light dot com slash Tar Hunts Sweet Steaks.

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Speaker 1: Is it this May? This coming May? Wow, that's fast.

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Speaker 1: That's fast. You're gonna win. And then all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden you're just gonna be there with me in a tent.

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Speaker 1: Can I win that? Yeah? I'm adding this to the

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Speaker 1: to the legal stipulations. You can't like peas. If you

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Speaker 1: like peas, you can't go don't want to be around

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Speaker 1: these types of people. You know what I'm saying, Phil,

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Speaker 1: I don't peas are just just fantastic. And I'd like

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Speaker 1: whoever whoever goes to start growing a mustache right away.

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Speaker 1: So we'll put that in the legal addendum at the

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Speaker 1: end when you win. Either way, you can do that

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Speaker 1: if you go to first light dot com slash t

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Speaker 1: A R shit t h R there's no ship in

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Speaker 1: the thing t A h R h u n T

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Speaker 1: sweepstakes Tar Hunt sweepstakes don't include ship. If you type

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Speaker 1: that in there, you're not gonna get anywhere, but it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be fun. I'm excited. I'm honored that that First

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Speaker 1: Light would want to include me and something like this.

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Speaker 1: I don't see a whole lot of giveaways out there

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Speaker 1: in the space like this one ever. Yeah, that is.

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Speaker 1: That is Joe was saying, that's a fast turnaround you

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Speaker 1: put in for like a sweepstakes, you wait a year

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Speaker 1: and then you might get a phone call and then

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Speaker 1: you have to wait another six months. But no, you've

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Speaker 1: got to put in your your time off at work

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Speaker 1: right now, even before you win week off right now.

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Speaker 1: Go to your boss and be like, I've taken this

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Speaker 1: week off, I've preemptively want to hunt with better. Brian's

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Speaker 1: confidence right there, and so we're gonna do a lot

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Speaker 1: We're back. We're back. I'm still looking for that some

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Speaker 1: listener to send me a compilation of all the email

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Speaker 1: things from my computer. On every show, there's one of them,

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Speaker 1: and so you might I might be able to just

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Speaker 1: give you a spot on the New Zealand Hunt if

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Speaker 1: you can put that compilation together. Again, not legal, all

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Speaker 1: all kidding aside. Please want um that's it, man, I'm excited.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go keep checking back from more details, but

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Speaker 1: first you have to enter. We're gonna do a lotical

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Speaker 1: stuff on the podcast around this hunt with the winner.

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Speaker 1: So hopefully you are well spoken and you love hunting.

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Speaker 1: That's really that all that matters. And we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: have a good time with First Light. So thanks First Light.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go now, Phil, we gotta talk. Okay, this

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Speaker 1: doesn't sound good. Yeah, it's a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: come to Jesus. We're gonna keep Anthony and Joe in

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Speaker 1: the room as mediators. That's gonna say, as witnesses. Will

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Speaker 1: happen because I might it might get violent. I just

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Speaker 1: watched The Irishman last night and this is a worrisome

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Speaker 1: introduction to a conversation. Yeah, it is for sure. I

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Speaker 1: got we got an email. It's entitled Phil is a Backstabber.

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Speaker 1: Now we and we've taken, you know, some time off

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Speaker 1: from actually recording each week. You got the best of

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Speaker 1: shows we enjoyed. This takes some time off. I've been

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Speaker 1: been very busy with my family, and it seems like

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Speaker 1: Phil his allegiance is slipping a little bit. I think

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Speaker 1: we've had something the truth like this conversation in the past. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would you like to expand on on this thought.

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Speaker 1: What's what's happening? There was a guy wrote in, A

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Speaker 1: guy and his name is Mike Hartman. He wrote in

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Speaker 1: and the emails Phil as a backstabber. Uh, he's At first,

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Speaker 1: I would like to point out that there has been

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Speaker 1: there's been an advertising ms from Nella Energy pouches and

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Speaker 1: you're included on that. That's true, and recently you were

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Speaker 1: on a full podcast with the met Either team. Mike

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Speaker 1: also points out, Uh, yeah, that's true. Huh. I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna lie. This is bad. This looks bad. It looks bad.

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Speaker 1: And in recent resent podcast you pledge your allegiance to

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Speaker 1: this show. Don't give me a looking offered, just awkward laugh.

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Speaker 1: I've been off rearing a child. It's something like that,

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Speaker 1: attempting to here you are, he wrote a poem for you, okay,

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Speaker 1: Mike did, I'm gonna read it. You're ready, go ahead.

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Speaker 1: The room is filled with a stench from Phil's countless lies.

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Speaker 1: Oh you're to tell Ms Joe Brian he would be

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Speaker 1: faithful to his side first on th HC, Phil the

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Speaker 1: Engineer did we applause, even though Ben made fun of

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Speaker 1: his stash and man go of the dog. We've greatly

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Speaker 1: appreciated his being on th HC. But the faithfulness of

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Speaker 1: Phil has was never meant to be behind you. Mr O'Brien.

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Speaker 1: We will all stand. Should you aspire to turn fill

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Speaker 1: the engineer, inform him that he's fired, or request that

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Speaker 1: he makes a symbol to show that he is true

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Speaker 1: to stand behind TC, our love could be renewed. I

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Speaker 1: think this is so dumb. You're not a poet, I

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Speaker 1: guess I mean no, Listen, I'm impressed, and I am

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Speaker 1: honestly flattered, even though it's mostly uh, it's called poem

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Speaker 1: d Phil what? Okay? Anyway, thanks Mike for writing in

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Speaker 1: and being concerned because I've been off doing really important things,

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Speaker 1: and Phil has been dabbling around with other folks. Uh,

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Speaker 1: what if I were to tell you, Ben that I

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Speaker 1: also work on Ryan Callahan's podcast. I don't care. I

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Speaker 1: also work Remy Warren's podcast. I'm not even looking at

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Speaker 1: your You're not no, I'm looking away, Ben, I Phil,

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Speaker 1: I'm still I'd like to think that I'm still You're

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Speaker 1: my number one boy. Boy. That didn't help, Okay, that hurt. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna just put a number on you. Ben can

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Speaker 1: move only called me tell me a boy or something. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna move on. Phil. Just just know that we're

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Speaker 1: watching you. Mike Hartman is watching you, and he's writing poems.

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Speaker 1: I imagine he wrote that in his basement or something. Mike,

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Speaker 1: Mike I said it was dumb. But honestly, that's that's

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Speaker 1: that's great, and you're not wrong. That's pretty good, pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Moving on to more degree, just more agreed, just things

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Speaker 1: out there in the honey world. But we're watching you, Phil.

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Speaker 1: Just know that. UM, I should say we have Cornell

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Speaker 1: Cornell ethicist Dr James Tantillo coming on soon. We're so

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Speaker 1: we talked about a lot of things. We talked about hunting,

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Speaker 1: ethics to try acknowledge within hunting and a lot of

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Speaker 1: really some some topics for reaction, but a really good

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Speaker 1: conversation around the philosophies the deeper philosophies of hunting with

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Speaker 1: with Dr Tantella's will stick around for that. But before

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Speaker 1: we get to that, Joe Fernado is here too. Give

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Speaker 1: us a bit of a news report. I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: call it a news report because we're gonna do some

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Speaker 1: more research after this. But there was a video that

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Speaker 1: came out not too long ago. When did it come out,

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Speaker 1: Joe November? This video came out of two young men

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania. I think you could actually describe it as

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Speaker 1: abusing a deer one of them had shot and wounded.

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Speaker 1: They filmed it, posted it on social media Snapchat, snapchat

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Speaker 1: to be exact. Um, give us any other details you

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Speaker 1: think are pertinent, Joe Um. So they videoed themselves like

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Speaker 1: laughing hysterically well while kicking this dear um multiple times.

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Speaker 1: And in the full video that originally was posted, there

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Speaker 1: was some more egregious acts like them really stepping on

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Speaker 1: its throat and like pulling it by the antlers and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that, And it was a really brutal video

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Speaker 1: to watch something that has hunters and you know, people

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Speaker 1: that care about wild animals and wild places and stuff

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Speaker 1: that it was just really disturbing, didn't enjoy it. Uh

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Speaker 1: hit home. But they have now been charged with multiple

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Speaker 1: crimes apiece four felony charges against each of them. Um yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: aggravated cruelty to animals, two counts for each of them,

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Speaker 1: and then aggravated cruelty to animal conspiracy. So in Pennsylvania. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one of those eighteen one was seventeen, So the seventeen

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Speaker 1: year old is technically a juvenile eighteen year old being

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Speaker 1: considered adult legal substances, and so this has become there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of things to go around this, but I

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Speaker 1: think maybe we should watch the video. I will say

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Speaker 1: that since this video came out, I've gotten dozens, if

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Speaker 1: not a hundred or so messages from people saying that

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Speaker 1: we need to discuss this or or gone about it.

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Speaker 1: So it is a serious thing. Hundreds of thousands of

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Speaker 1: people have watched it too, and there's petitions on the internet,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's a very serious thing. Part of this,

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Speaker 1: I think goes to there's there's a lot of threats

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Speaker 1: social media being a big one. UM, these two young

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Speaker 1: men being exactly that, being young men. Um, and then

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Speaker 1: just internet outrage and how that influences things in this case.

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Speaker 1: But let's let's quickly just watch the video and we

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Speaker 1: can comment on it. UM. For those who haven't um

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Speaker 1: seen it. I'm not gonna han hand the link out.

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Speaker 1: You can go find it somewhere, but we'll watch it

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Speaker 1: really quick because we just need to kind of go

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Speaker 1: through this and and look at what's happening. So they

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Speaker 1: blurted out in this video, but this kid, this deer

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Speaker 1: is wounded, looks like it's maybe he spined it paralyzed

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Speaker 1: that the kid film me is giggling. Wise. Friend takes

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Speaker 1: two or three steps and punts this deer in the head.

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Speaker 1: They're cussing really easy, oh my, and grab, don't get

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Speaker 1: I'll try. And so now he's trying to grab. This

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Speaker 1: deer is fully alive, clearly paralyzed. They're trying to grab

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Speaker 1: his horn. They already broke one off. This is and

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Speaker 1: it's clearly animal abuse. It's as a hunter, the opposite

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Speaker 1: of everything you'd want to see. It's pretty gross and appalling. UM,

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Speaker 1: I don't know any other comments. Yeah, it's it's gross

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Speaker 1: and appalling and it is hard to watch um. And

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Speaker 1: it's just um, you know, if you've hunted um long enough,

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Speaker 1: there's there's a good chance that you've come up on

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Speaker 1: a dude that you've shot that has that is not dead.

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Speaker 1: And it's hard to imagine, you know, that's happened to me.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the into the feeling that I feel

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Speaker 1: immediately is like kind of revulsion and and like you're

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Speaker 1: a little sick about it, and you're you're like you're

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Speaker 1: worried and you feel bad. And my first thought is,

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Speaker 1: you know, how do I kill this dear as quickly

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Speaker 1: as possible right now? And it's just hard to imagine, um,

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Speaker 1: someone having the opposite reaction that it's an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: sort of abuse and cause more pain um to an animal.

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Speaker 1: It's it's I don't understand it other than you know,

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Speaker 1: clearly there's something wrong with these two individuals. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's very hard to watch if you're old enough.

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Speaker 1: In this case, age being being a big thing that

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Speaker 1: I think about, Like what was I doing when I

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Speaker 1: was at age? I was following the examples of the

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Speaker 1: folks that we're taking me honey. And so these guys

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Speaker 1: are old enough to grab a rifle and get a

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Speaker 1: license and go hunting there, old enough to treat wildlife

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Speaker 1: with respect that it deserves. This is just a beyond.

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Speaker 1: It's just beyond. And the the hubrist to post it online.

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Speaker 1: You just I think that's one of the big issues

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Speaker 1: there too, because everybody goes to snapchat because it disappears

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Speaker 1: after you know, five or ten seconds, and it has

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Speaker 1: that facade that you know, sense of safety posting stuff

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Speaker 1: that you don't want people to see for a long

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Speaker 1: period of times. But you know, once you put something

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Speaker 1: on the internet, it's always going to be there, you know.

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Speaker 1: And there's the there's the tired tropes of like anti

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Speaker 1: hunters will see this. This isn't to me, this isn't that.

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Speaker 1: This is what is wrong with these two kids, I

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Speaker 1: mean their kids. One of them is eighteen, but it's

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Speaker 1: still that's still young. And how do they get to

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Speaker 1: to this point. I'm not gonna I don't know them.

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Speaker 1: I can't pre judge them in any way. Um My

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Speaker 1: assumption is they're feeling real bad at this point. But

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Speaker 1: in the moment to see that, dear and for your

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Speaker 1: mind to go to I'm going to get my phone

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Speaker 1: out and film someone. I mean, I never used chap Snapchat.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you post to it. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you film live like you do Instagram, or

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Speaker 1: whether they filmed it and then later posted it that.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Well I'm not sure about that. But

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Speaker 1: in the moment, for you to see a suffering be

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Speaker 1: it doesn't need need to be the animals, any being

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Speaker 1: suffering at your hand, and to to increase that suffering

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Speaker 1: for a laugh, it's pretty sick. It's very sick, pretty sick. Um.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's any more to say about that.

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Speaker 1: Anybody that sees that video, which these these folks voluntarily

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Speaker 1: put out on the Internet, that shows another kind of

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Speaker 1: warped way of seeing their own actions. Anybody sees it

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Speaker 1: is sickened by it. Any Hunter the season, I think

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Speaker 1: probably is doubly sickened by it, because you know the

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Speaker 1: responsibility you have in that moment, and this is, in

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Speaker 1: fact the opposite of what your responsibility is to that animal.

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Speaker 1: Um is piste off like that pisces me off, pisses

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Speaker 1: me off a lot. Um. But Joe, you have the

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Speaker 1: you found it changed out orc petition and what's it say?

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Speaker 1: So it was written by guy Mike Wolfe. Uh. He

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Speaker 1: opens it up with saying, recently two monsters from Brookville, Pennsylvania, UM,

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Speaker 1: which I think is a very strong word to use

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Speaker 1: right in that opening line, like he's he's getting it

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00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: out there that people need to associate these two kids

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Speaker 1: as monster. Criminal charge. The title of the changed out

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Speaker 1: petition is criminal Charges for violent Monsters who tortured innocent wildlife. Yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: he I mean, in my mind when I'm watching this video,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking these these are little monsters like I do.

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Speaker 1: I would think that just by like the visceral reaction

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Speaker 1: watching the video continue Joe, and I totally agree with

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Speaker 1: you there. And then you know, he goes on to

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Speaker 1: say they committed sickening acts, which I totally completely agree with,

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Speaker 1: and is calling for people uh to sign his petitions,

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Speaker 1: saying charges need to be filed with maximum sentencing. UM,

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00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 1: charges need to be pressed posting in the case it

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Speaker 1: gets to their their posts, get the lead. He just yeah,

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Speaker 1: he ends up was saying and all caps charges need

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Speaker 1: to be filed with maximum sentencing. And then this petition

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Speaker 1: has been signed by seven hundred and seventy one people. Yeah,

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00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: like that's a that's a big thing. There's a lot

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00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: of people seeing this petition. And I mean, I don't

422
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: know if you guys saw on social media on your

423
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: own channels and everything when this first came out, just

424
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,479
Speaker 1: the outrage. I mean on my personal channels, I had friends,

425
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: um for sure, posting petition saying we need to throw

426
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 1: the book at these kids, just get him out of here.

427
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: And yes, Um, it's disturbing, it's disturbing. There there has

428
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: to be some there's been some separation between how outrageous

429
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 1: this video is and how we treat these these gentlemen

430
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: in in in a judicial manner. There there has to

431
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: be some some way. But you often have UM, public

432
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: officials who are reading this. We're feeling the backlash. We're

433
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: getting the emails. I know in this case, Joe, you

434
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: were telling me that that was happening. Um, the local

435
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 1: officials that were set to prosecute these two kids, we're

436
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: feeling the pressure. And they were getting a lot of

437
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 1: emails as to why haven't you done something sooner? Why

438
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: isn't the investigation more swift? Why haven't these from some

439
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: of my preliminary research to a lot of people have

440
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: been thinking, you know, in that court of public opinion,

441
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: people have been thinking that it's been because the older kid,

442
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: the eighteen year old, is the steps on of uh

443
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: Brooksville sheriff. So people thought there was you know, some

444
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: special treatment going on or something like that, which it

445
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 1: was assured by the police department that that wasn't happening.

446
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: And then the game Commission is the one investigating, not

447
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: thet It just takes longer for some of the stuff

448
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: to happen than people realize. From Yeah, and it seems

449
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: like they did a very thorough investigation before they came forward.

450
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 1: We were charges and the charges that you said there

451
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: in the beginning, Joe face a maximum penalty of thirty

452
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,719
Speaker 1: seven years in prison? Is that correct? All? Right? About that?

453
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: Right about? So for for Alexander, he's the eighteen year old,

454
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: so he has four felony charges against him, plus eat

455
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: more seven more charges misdemeanors things like that that would

456
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: in total if you got max penalties on all of

457
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: them and was found guilty on all of the charges, Uh,

458
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: it could lead to thirty seven years and it What

459
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: do you think about that, Anthony? Well, what I think

460
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: I'm not punning here, but what I think is that's

461
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: not for me to say, right, that's um, those laws

462
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: were written in a certain way for the maximum penalties,

463
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: and UM that's the way our legal system works, where

464
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: laws are passed with sentencing guidelines and then the trial

465
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: happens and there's a whole process for a judge to

466
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: um determine what is the best sentence. And so UM,

467
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: what I think is, you know, I understand people are

468
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: angry and it angered me and you think, oh my god,

469
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: these kids are horrible. Throw the book at him. I

470
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: get that, UM, but I don't know the full story.

471
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: I don't know, um any other circumstances. And I you know,

472
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: I trust that that's what the trial and the sentencing

473
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: process and the judge that's what their job is. They

474
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: are the experts on that, not me. Yeah, this all

475
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: this goes weirdly connects to President Donald Trump. Uh that

476
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: he signed it back in November signed a federal animal

477
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: cruelty bill called the Preventing Animal Cruelty and Torture Act

478
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: five days before this happened. It was signed into law.

479
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: This is all I mean, this goes back to this.

480
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: One of these two kids being a step son of

481
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 1: a law enforcement official. Then you have this five days

482
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: before it happened. By this is a bipartisan bill, and

483
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: this is what it says. This expands a two thousand

484
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: ten laws signed by President Barack Obama that banned videos

485
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: that show animals being crushed, burned, drowned, suffocated, and pale

486
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: or subjected to other forms of torture. Now, intentional acts

487
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:55,239
Speaker 1: of cruelty shown in videos are also felony offenses. And

488
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: it's obviously a reaction to things like this. So obviously

489
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: a react action to social media, to the uprise and

490
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: people filming everything they do. And now you have a

491
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: case in the hunting space that connects directly to this legislation.

492
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: It was bipartisan legislation for once in our damn lives. Um,

493
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: and I absolutely agree with with the way this is

494
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: stated in the bill and the way it was passed

495
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: in the law. And now you have, uh, these two kids,

496
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: they're gonna face it. They're gonna face the wrath of

497
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: of this legislation and of everything that they did in

498
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: that video. UM. So we're gonna do some more research

499
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: on this. We're gonna continue to look into it. I

500
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: think there's just so many Some of these stories just

501
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: have so many threads and entanglements not only in our culture,

502
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: but in how we treat criminals. And in this case,

503
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: it's just a really interesting story. So hopefully Joe and

504
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: I will break off at some point and get an

505
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: article in media dot com to kind of go through

506
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: the details of this and get everything exactly right, talk

507
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: to the individuals involved, and kind of lay this out

508
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: in a way that makes sense, because again, the thing

509
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: that worries me is that the quarter of the opinion

510
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: when there's a video that's this damning, becomes ravenous. As

511
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: we see with this petition, it's very easy. It's very easy.

512
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: Like signing a petition sounds like a serious thing, but

513
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: all you have to do is put your basic information

514
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: into fields on the Internet and you have quote unquote

515
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: signed a petition on change dot org to punish these kids. Um.

516
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: You know that that may or may not weigh on

517
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: the actual decision when it comes down as to what

518
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: punishment they get. But um, that's just another example of

519
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: what I feel is just reckless chord of public opinion,

520
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: especially when there's something this gross out there in terms

521
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: of the video. But the legislation backs it up. So

522
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: I think it's just a story that we're gonna continue

523
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: continue to look at. So please write it's at THHC

524
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: at the mediator dot com. Let us know what you think.

525
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: Let us know what you'd like to know about this

526
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: that you don't already know, because there's a lot of

527
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: details we left out here. There's a lot of little

528
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: idiosyncrasies and things, um, and good journalism, good report would

529
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: bear out that we need to go and get that

530
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: stuff and present it because I think this is an

531
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: important story, not only for for these two gentlemen and

532
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: what they did, but also for social media and for

533
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: what we post and how we post, for our images hunters, um,

534
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: how we penalize, and how we charge people that do

535
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: things like this. Um. There's a lot that goes into it,

536
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: and it's I I would take it very seriously. I

537
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: don't think there's any joking joking in me on this subject. UM.

538
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: So right in, let us know what you think. We're

539
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: gonna break off and do some research and come back

540
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: with even more information on this situation at a p A.

541
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: Phil you want to take us home? What do you think?

542
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: I mean? I know one of them is seventeen, but

543
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,959
Speaker 1: even like everywhere on this table kept preferring to them

544
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: as kids. I'm sorry, man, you're old enough to know

545
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: one of them is not a kid legally. I was

546
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: moved out of my house and I was seventeen. Oh, ship, Phil,

547
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: we're feeling an onion back. Just not only are there

548
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: is I'm gonna say that they're not children, but they

549
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: are young enough to have grown up in this social

550
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: media landscape like snapchat and Instagram and Facebook. Uh. The

551
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: fact that they committed the abuse and then thought that

552
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: it was a good idea to put it on the

553
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: internet because they're like their small circle of friends would

554
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: think it was funny or something. I guess. Uh. And

555
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: then it seems like like there's not kind of what

556
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: I get is that you seem upset about this change

557
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: dot org petition. That's like, oh, it's like they were

558
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: coming at these kids with with pitchforks and torches. But

559
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: I think they invited that on themselves. Change dot org

560
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: petition is is nothing. It's it's only a way to

561
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: call attention to something. Uh. And they wanted attention called

562
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: to what they did, and now they're getting it. And

563
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything wrong with that, you know,

564
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: part of the thing. Um, when I look at this,

565
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: I just I think seven thousand people just to notes

566
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: the power of the digital age, Like people are gonna

567
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: see this, man, if you post something online. And we've

568
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: seen this, I don't know how many times we've talked

569
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: about on this podcast where others we have seen this

570
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: time and time and time again, criminals posting illegal things

571
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: on the Internet and getting caught like it is ridiculous.

572
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: There's a lot of dumb people in the world. And

573
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: and I don't it's it's alarming to me. The language

574
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: and the vitual here is alarming to me. But you're

575
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: not wrong, phil, Like you bring that on yourself when

576
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: you do stupid things. Um, you live with the consequences.

577
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: And and I don't know if this I don't know

578
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: these two kids gentlemen whatever we're gonna call them, but

579
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: not gentlemen, Like I don't know these people, but I

580
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: could tell you that to to think that you can

581
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: do this and post it for others to see, the

582
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: disconnect with reality that is present there. That I'm gonna

583
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: post this for other people to see is is unbelievable.

584
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: Unbelievable that that they wouldn't stop in the moment and say,

585
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: like posting this on the internet, even if it goes

586
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: away and whatever it is twenty four hours or whatever,

587
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: the snapchat set up is the wrong thing to do.

588
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: Just like it. I just didn't even understand that I

589
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: can't do it. I can't can't either. It's sick to

590
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: think that. I I just know because, like you know,

591
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: the the argument being like, oh, well we all did

592
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: dumb things, like dumb things when we were that young.

593
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, well that's like that's a line. There's dumb

594
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: and then there's evil. I and if I got if

595
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: I saw someone posted a picture on Facebook of me

596
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: in a dorm room and there was like a beer

597
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: can in the background, I would go to that person

598
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, take that picture down please. And

599
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: like so these guys like tortured an animal and had

600
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: no problem like sharing it with the Yeah it's this,

601
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: It's just awful. I don't know that the first time

602
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: I've ever been presented with like what do they deserve?

603
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: It's it's clear that most people that watch this, me included,

604
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: I think they deserve a harsh punishment. I don't know.

605
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: I just don't know, I don't. I can't say that

606
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: thirty years in jail will fix it. I just don't.

607
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. But they do deserve to be punished.

608
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: So we'll go back. We're gonna look at this. We're

609
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: going to um talk to as many people as we

610
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: can that were involved, and we're gonna find out as

611
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 1: much as we can about it and trying to present

612
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: this this case to everyone UM as it lays out,

613
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: because there's a lot that we don't know. UM. Which

614
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: is the case with a lot of this stuff, is

615
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: there's a lot that we just do not know. But

616
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: you know, you know how I learned how to what

617
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: not to post on the internet. When I've got my

618
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: first job out of college in the hunting industry, The

619
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: lady called to the HR lady called to tell me

620
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: I got the job. She said, Hey, you got the job. Congratulations,

621
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm all excited. She said, but you're mice face page

622
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: has a few pictures. You might want to take down

623
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 1: my space. Yeah, she was like, yeah, see, Joe doesn't

624
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: even know what my space is. A mini who was

625
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: in your top eight? Ben? Oh, I don't know that

626
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: there was a time when you couldn't change it but

627
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: then it was man when when you could make your

628
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: own top eight, you had to think about your circle

629
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: of friends and who would give you bad I was

630
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: just like eight chicks that I liked a single. That's

631
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: that's how you flirted. Yeah, that's how I told him

632
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: I was into it. Um, that's good. So then I

633
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: went and I looked, and there's me doing beer bonds,

634
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: me doing all this you know, college age type business,

635
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: and I just deleted the whole thing. I was like,

636
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: this is not worth None of this is worth the

637
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: benefit that I might get from people thinking that I

638
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: do beer bonds on the end, especially when you figure

639
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: out that your employers are looking at that. Yes, this

640
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 1: is like twelve years ago, and so um for any

641
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: young folks out there or anyone at all, My god,

642
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: everything you put online as a press for these everything,

643
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: so take that from this. And also I don't think

644
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: we could lecture people and not kicking wounded animals. This

645
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 1: is what we don't need to do that. But UM,

646
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 1: a lot to learn from this, and we're gonna continue

647
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: to look at it great now. James Tantillo from Cornell

648
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: it's a really great conversation. We got him on the

649
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: phone a couple of weeks ago. We talked about a

650
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: lot of things, including philosophies around hunting, a lot of

651
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: his thoughts on ethics and the modern hunter. So enjoy

652
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: James Tantillo. I guess I grew up on an all

653
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: day road. Jim, how are you good? Good? Well, thanks

654
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: for joining us. We're we don't do many phone interviews

655
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: here on the Hunting Collective, but I wanted to make

656
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: sure that we had this conversation. And we tried to

657
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: hook up on the East coast and it didn't work out.

658
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: But thanks for taking the time to to chat today.

659
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: My pleasure. UM, we want to break into a little

660
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: bit of your background and what you've done in the

661
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,240
Speaker 1: academic circles and also uh in in the hunting space.

662
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: But I guess first, we've talked a lot about ethics

663
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: on this program. We talk a lot about why we

664
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: do what we do in our motivations, intrinsic and extrinsic,

665
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: and the things that uh we believe to be true.

666
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: But could you explain to somebody UH that may not

667
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: understand ethics your version of ethics when it when it

668
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: comes to hunting. Well, you know, I mean, I'm a

669
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: trained ethicist. And you know, I used to give a

670
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: lot of talks and I would make the point that

671
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: when it comes to hunting ethics, there's only two or

672
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: three genuine ethics issues, and that's hunting safely, and it's

673
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: a general you know, sort of a general respect for

674
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: the law and UH and the clean quick kill, and

675
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: then beyond that a lot of it. You know what,

676
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 1: what what hunters tend to think of as hunting ethics

677
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: is really more aesthetic questions about what type of technology

678
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: do you see? How many shells in the gun, whether

679
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: to shoot on the wing or on the water, and

680
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: and those kinds of questions. Yeah, and those are the

681
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: questions I think that persists because they are at least

682
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: for me, important to talk about and to compare perspectives

683
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: and our cultural the culture significant to some of those ideas. Um,

684
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: do you feel that that's what's going on? Why? You know,

685
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: most of those you could call them de baits, you

686
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: could call them quandaries, whatever the issues within hunting, those

687
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,879
Speaker 1: things persist in the conversation. Do you feel like that's

688
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: just because we're always trying to gain those perspectives? You know,

689
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: I think that's part of it. But I also think

690
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: there's basic human nature at work. We're you know, many

691
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: times we criticize what we don't understand or you know,

692
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: and and a lot of I get sort of irritated

693
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: at hunters pointing the fingers at other hundreds and saying, well,

694
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: I don't like the way you hunt, so let's ban

695
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 1: the way you hunt. And there's this sort of it's

696
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: my way or the highway mentality, and I don't think

697
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: that does anybody any good. Um, you know, in an

698
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: ideal world, I'd love to see hunters tolerate other hunters

699
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 1: and other hunting behaviors, even if they personally don't approve

700
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: of them, or don't engage in them, or you don't

701
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: don't care about them. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's something

702
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: that continues in our in our community, and just there

703
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: the lack of tolerance. We've talked about this recently, where

704
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: you wonder if these differences were always there, there's just

705
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: laid bare with modern technology and the internet and social media.

706
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: Our differences were always there. We're always you know, culturally

707
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 1: different and in the South versus the West, for example,

708
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: but now those things are being laid bare because we're

709
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: all connected and we can see these practices and that's

710
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: kind of accelerated those differences. And there's larger social trends,

711
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 1: you know, just you know, independent of hunting. Apart from hunting,

712
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: you know, there's a there's less toleration I think of

713
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: differing viewpoints and perspectives and and people are more quick

714
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: to judge, and there's a lot of self righteousness. And

715
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 1: I think that's that's true across the board. Yeah, for sure.

716
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: Well before we get much deeper into that, because we'll

717
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: probably go quite deep on that line thinking, can you

718
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: just talk about you know, right now, you're you're at

719
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: Canal you Cornell University, you've been in the Department National

720
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: Resources since two thousand and one. Could you kind of

721
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: talk about why you landed where you did in academia?

722
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: Why ethics, UM, why environmental history, environmental ethics, virtue ethics.

723
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: There's a lot of things that you deal with that

724
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: UM are interesting to me and would love to know

725
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: why you landed where you did. Sure, probably long answer

726
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: to that question. I'll give you the park Notes version

727
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: as much as possible. Right I I started out in

728
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: college as a history major at William and Murray in Virginia.

729
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: UH dropped out of college once the leave of absence,

730
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 1: found myself working at Walden Pond Stay Reservation and Conquer

731
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: Math home of Emerson in the Row, and uh transferred

732
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 1: to Cornell as an undergraduate and dropped out yet again.

733
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: I was on sort of the tenure plan for my

734
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: bachelor's degree, and then when I finally went back to school,

735
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: I stayed there and got my master's and my PhD

736
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: at Cornell. And it just worked out that my PhD

737
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: advisor was retiring. I took over his teaching and I've

738
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: been there ever since. It was just sort of being

739
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: in the right place at the right time. Yeah, And

740
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: when you know, we've had I've had a lot of

741
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: good conversations around why um folks that are biologists or

742
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: that professionally um that used the professional time to go

743
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: outside and study the outside world of the natural world.

744
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: You know, when was the point in your life that

745
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: that you that you knew that's what you wanted to

746
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: do was? But was there for you? Was there a

747
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 1: point in your life where you knew that this that

748
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: this path was It was it before that you that

749
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: you got into this or or during your time you

750
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: know some of them both my parents or teachers. My

751
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: dad was a high school principle. My mom taught special

752
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: at I think teaching is in the blood. Um, you know,

753
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: it's just I think there's there's a sense in which

754
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: it was meant to be. I think and and have you.

755
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: When you look at ethics and your study of them,

756
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: is that connected you more to the outdoors? Do you

757
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 1: feel like you you understand a little bit more of

758
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: the push and pull what's going on out there? Um,

759
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: as you think of it, I don't. I don't know

760
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: that ethics by itself, you know, deepens or heightens my

761
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: appreciation for the natural world, you know, having studied thorough

762
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 1: for so many years, you know, he was a sort

763
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: of intellectual jack of all trades and was interested in

764
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: natural history. He was interested in philosophy, he was interested

765
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: in religion, history. And uh, I think I'm a little

766
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: like that in terms of wanting to know everything about everything.

767
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: And you know, I know very little about a lot

768
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 1: of things and much more of a generalist I think,

769
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: which kind of goes against the grain somewhat of academic work,

770
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: because a lot of academics no more and more about

771
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: less and less. Just they're they're hyper specialized and I

772
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: have very broad interests. When when was the first time

773
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: you really started thinking about um, you know, looking at

774
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: And I was telling you before we hit record that

775
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 1: I read a paper that you sent me from two

776
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: thousand one called Sport Hunting, Pneumonia and Tragic Wisdom. And

777
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: as I read that, I know it's it's decades old

778
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: by now, um, but as I read that, it struck

779
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: me as a lot of the things that I've been

780
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 1: thinking about and talking about articulated better than I probably

781
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: ever could. When did you When was the first time

782
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: you thought about that this was a need or this

783
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 1: was something that you you know, talking about sport hunting

784
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 1: and the idea of it and the ethics of it.

785
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: When was the first time you thought that it was

786
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: either a need of the intellectual academic community or a

787
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: need of the hunting community. When did that start to

788
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: happen for you? Right? You know? When I went to

789
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: graduate school of Cornell UH in the early nineties, I

790
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: didn't intend to write my PhD on hunting. I was

791
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: actually more interested in studying animal rights philosophy, believe it

792
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: or not. And the more I studied animal rights philosophy,

793
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: that more and more convinced I was that it didn't

794
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: hold up and I didn't grow up hunting, so I

795
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: came to hunting as a thirty year old adult. I

796
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: got invited to go along to watch with my fellow

797
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: graduate students, and it just blew all the stereotypes out

798
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,359
Speaker 1: of the water. These you know, it wasn't a bunch

799
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: of beer guzzling highway signs shooting yahoo's. The people that

800
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,439
Speaker 1: I met who hunted were very thoughtful and reflective about it.

801
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: It meant a lot to them. And then when I

802
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: tried it myself, you know, it became a passion and

803
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: it's been a passion ever since. So, you know, along

804
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 1: with all that, I started reading some of the philosophical

805
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,720
Speaker 1: discussions about hunting and hunting ethics and the morality of hunting,

806
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: and I realized there was a real need for for,

807
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: you know, a more nuanced kind of discussion about the

808
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: philosophy of hunting. Around the same time, Jim Swan had

809
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: published his book in Defensive Hunting, and while that's a

810
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,399
Speaker 1: very very good book, um, you know, at the time

811
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: I thought, I don't I don't know that that is

812
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: adequate to the task. And so that's when I sort

813
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: of decided Man, that's a good, good PhD topic. Yeah,

814
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: it's been a topic that we've well I don't know

815
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: if I have a PhD in it, but I've definitely

816
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: run my mouth on quite a little. I'm pretty I'm

817
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: sure you're close to it anyway. I don't know if

818
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: I ever get there. But that's why, that's why I

819
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: want to have this conversation. I'm interested though, now you

820
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: say this, um what? And I've been thinking about this

821
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 1: a lot. Like I traveled to Berkeley, California over the

822
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: summer and did some podcasts with some animal rights folks

823
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 1: and a vegan philosopher named Robert C. Jones and talked

824
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: about the animal rights philosophy and the ideologies of it

825
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,479
Speaker 1: um in depth, and we just kind of we there's

826
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: a lot I think we agree on with vegans. I

827
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: think the animal rights philosophies, as you just said, have

828
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 1: lots of holes in them and can and can relatively

829
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: easily be broken down philosophically once you start to go

830
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: that direction. What what did you find as you looked

831
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: at that early on? Well, you know, I used to

832
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: argue that the hunters share much of the animal welfare

833
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 1: perspective with uh so called animal rights activists. Many animal

834
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: rights activists don't really believe in rights, they just believe

835
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: in reducing animal suffering. And hunters are the same way.

836
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: No hunter, I think, in good conscience, goes out in

837
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: the morning with the conscious intention of shooting a deer

838
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: in the ass and having a crawl off in a

839
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,240
Speaker 1: ditch to diet angering six weeks later. You know, hunters

840
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: want the ideal of the clean, quick kill. We don't

841
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: always managed to to do that, but you know we

842
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: we generally try for that. You know, so if all

843
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,439
Speaker 1: goes well, you shoot an animal who doesn't know you're there,

844
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: and then the animal just falls over and never knows

845
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 1: what hit it. So, you know, I used to make

846
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,720
Speaker 1: a point of emphasizing that that hunters and people consider

847
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 1: concerned with animal welfare, it's share an awful lot in common. Yeah,

848
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: for sure, did you find that where where did they

849
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: Where did they fall apart? For you? Where did that

850
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: line of thinking that just fall apart in terms of

851
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 1: the in terms of the rights perspective. In terms of

852
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: the rights perspective, Yeah, I think there's a the rights

853
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: perspective is sort of you know, ignorant about basics about

854
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: animals in a lot of ways. And you know, you

855
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: can treat animals as little you know, people trapped in

856
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: animals bodies, you know, um and anthropomorphized animals, you know,

857
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: the so called Bandi syndrome. UM. But I think people

858
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: who work with animals, people who um, you know, have hats,

859
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: people who are thoughtful, I think know that there's a

860
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,839
Speaker 1: a genuine a line or a distinction between human and

861
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: non human animals. UM. So I think that's probably the

862
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: first place where the animal rights sort of philosophy goes wrong. Yeah.

863
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: I went to a place called the Dingo Den when

864
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: I went to Berkeley, and I got to interview an

865
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: animal rights activist and he was he uh, he had

866
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: been too. He had been charged, I believe in and

867
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: some of the leaders of his organization were looking at

868
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: federal charges for doing some breaking into factory farms and

869
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,800
Speaker 1: and other things. And they I found that they thought

870
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: that was a badge of honor, that was something to

871
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,280
Speaker 1: be that they were fighting for for what they believed

872
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 1: to be mass murder. And they were they wanted a

873
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,959
Speaker 1: constitutional amendment saying, you know, killing an animal was akin

874
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: to murder um, and and spoke about that sometimes flippantly

875
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 1: like that wasn't a huge thing for our our world,

876
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 1: that we could just move past killing animals, much like

877
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: we moved past slavery. Um. And I was very uncomfortable

878
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: with those comparisons. Well, you know, I respect their motivation

879
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: and I believe those folks are as well intended as

880
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: anyone else. So I think that here's where we get

881
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: back to the ethics topic, that you know, what a

882
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: hundred chooses to do in his or her own mind,

883
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: you know, as regards killing an animal, you know, that's

884
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: that's sort of on the hunter and the hunter's conscience.

885
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 1: And while I understand there's a role for society to

886
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,439
Speaker 1: play and trying to prevent animal cruelty, there's a big

887
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: difference between animal cruelty and legitimate forms of animal use hunting, uh,

888
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: you know, farming, raising beef cattle, using sled dogs to

889
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: pull sleds, uh you know, or what have you, and

890
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 1: so you know, and and those activities generally don't harm

891
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: other people. They don't harm the animal rights activists. So

892
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: that the animal rights activists starts at a disadvantage because

893
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: it's very difficult for them to prove that, you know,

894
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: the act of hunting out in the middle of the woods,

895
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: miles and miles away from the near town, you know,

896
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: has any impact on them at all? Yeah, Yeah, And

897
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: I think that they often and was my experience to

898
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,399
Speaker 1: choose the straw man are their factory. Farming is their

899
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 1: straw man, and that's what they go towards. And they'll

900
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: they'll play that up and and use that as an

901
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: example and and all that says. I disagree with that

902
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: as well. It's a part of my activity of hunting

903
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: is to disassociate from those that that those mass slaughters

904
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: and not knowing where my meat comes from. So, as

905
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: you said earlier, I think something that everyone that listen

906
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: to this podcasts know that that I believe wholly that

907
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,240
Speaker 1: vegans and animal rights because we share. We don't share

908
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: a certain tact, we don't share a lot, but um,

909
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 1: we share this animal welfare idea, UM very strongly. Um.

910
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think moving moving into the ethics conversation,

911
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: moving into the paper that you're at two thousand one,

912
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: and I know a lot of these things have have

913
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: stood the test of time and and really can can

914
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 1: be a big part of of our conversation around ethics

915
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: and hunting. Do you do? You want to quickly just explain, um,

916
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: what you determined to be the benefit of Honey, which

917
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 1: you describe is the realistic awareness of death. I thought

918
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: that to be a really you also talk about tragedy

919
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: a lot, but I think that realistic awareness of deaths

920
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: a nice place to start. Sure, you know, I back

921
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: up a little bit, you know because in a lot

922
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: of different places in twenty years ago, thirty years ago,

923
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: and still you know, people would say, well, why do

924
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: you have to kill an animal? Why not just use

925
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: a camera or use paintball, um, you know, with the camera,

926
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: if you want to really dress it up, you know,

927
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: you can pay cross areas on your camera lens and

928
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: and show you at the kill, shot right at the heart,

929
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: and let the animal live. And so how I got

930
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:51,320
Speaker 1: into the topic was wrestling with this question about why

931
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: why death? Why is the death necessary? And the classic

932
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: sort of line comes from the Spanish philosopher Jose or

933
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 1: takeing Ego Sette and Meditations on Honey, where he says,

934
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: you know, we don't hunt to kill, we kill in

935
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: order to have hunted. And you know I used to

936
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,240
Speaker 1: make this point a lot. You know, you get somebody

937
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,919
Speaker 1: who's farther along in their hunting career. They may trophy hunt,

938
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 1: they may be holding out for antlers. They may go

939
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,479
Speaker 1: five or six seasons without killing a deer, but there's

940
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: always that possibility that they might have killed had the

941
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: right deer come along. And it doesn't mean they weren't hunting.

942
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: And you know, so to me, you know, I I

943
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: really did wrestle with this. You know, why do you

944
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 1: need the death? And to me, there's a whole bundle

945
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: of virtues that are sort of packaged in, you know,

946
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: with the act of taking a life, the conscious decision

947
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: of taking the life, uh, and then dealing with the fallout,

948
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: the repercussions, the emotional sort of part of it. So

949
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: in that paper, you know, I talked a lot about

950
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: this idea of the sort of tragic ambivalence that at

951
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: the moment of the kill, the hunter is both glad

952
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 1: for having done something the right way and a clean,

953
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: quick kill, but at the same time there's a there's

954
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: an ambivalence, there's a sadness, there's a twinge of regret

955
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,760
Speaker 1: that you know, jeez, I just took this animal's life,

956
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 1: and and there's a sadness and uh, you know that

957
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: that to me is is very very similar to the classic,

958
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: you know, thousands years old explanations of the reactions to tragedy.

959
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: And that's that's how the tragedy thing came about. Yeah,

960
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: and you bring up like Aristyle and his insights about tragedy, right,

961
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: and talk a lot about tragedy and some of the

962
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: virtues that you talk about their emotional and their intellectual. Right,

963
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 1: there's crucial you say that, you know, honey is especially

964
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 1: well suited for promoting a range of crucial intellectual and

965
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: emotional virtues, which I think is is a great way

966
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: to kind of start that lay out the groundwork for

967
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: for what these are. Um, you've already talked a little

968
00:54:57,760 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: bit about them, but is there any other way you

969
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 1: kind of plane exactly the intellectual emotional virtues that we expecture.

970
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: One of the themes that I sort of have pushed

971
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: for the twenty years since that paper was published, you know,

972
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: this idea of tragic wisdom, the idea of wisdom coming

973
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 1: out of the moment of the kill. You know, and

974
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: we talked about the you know, the person who eats

975
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 1: meat but goes to the grocery store and sort of

976
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: sees the meat and the shrink wrapper and the soul

977
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: of fane and goes home and never gives it any thought.

978
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: That's a very careless and thoughtless sort of mode of

979
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 1: consuming meat. Whereas somebody who's actually been out there for

980
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: three weeks and has waited to the final day of

981
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: a deerer and ax season, harvested an animal and and

982
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: and deal with you know, the gutting and the butchering

983
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 1: and and all of it. Um. You know, there are

984
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: insights both about animals and about food and about one's

985
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 1: own character that you don't get just shopping at the

986
00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 1: grocery store, um, you know, and and and there's an

987
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: emotional depth to the experience that is also absent when

988
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: one is simply you know, you know, eating eating food

989
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,240
Speaker 1: from the grocery store, going to McDonald's for a hamburger

990
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: for that matter. You know that there's a reason they

991
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: call it fast food. Do you feel That's something I've

992
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: been thinking about a lot. It's not really covered in

993
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: your paper, but it's something I've been been wondering. And

994
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: I know it's a model. In the modern sense, we

995
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: as humans are we're given an option, you know, we

996
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: have the option to kind of disregard where our food

997
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: comes from, and really most of the things that we

998
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: interact with where how they're made, or where they come

999
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: from or kind of the genouis of how they come

1000
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 1: to be. We have that option, right, we can. We

1001
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: can check out of our consumer how we consume things

1002
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: only from food to products, to whatever you might put

1003
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 1: in that bucket. And I think we have this option

1004
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 1: to to walk away from that and live, you know,

1005
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: live a modern life without understanding where our impacts, or

1006
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: we can do what is increasingly different call, which is

1007
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: dive into these these difficult connections we have with every

1008
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: action we make and the impact that it has not

1009
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 1: only our environment, but on our society, the people around us, whatever.

1010
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: So I think Honey is just now a part of

1011
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: that conversation how do we uh stay connected as humans

1012
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: when every advance that we have, both in technology and

1013
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: and really every part of our sciety, every advance moves

1014
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: to disconnect us, right, And I think Honey just just

1015
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: sits in that vacuum. Well, and there's a larger sort

1016
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 1: of do it yourself ethos that's at play. You know,

1017
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: nobody could be a hundred percent self sufficient throw himself

1018
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: proved that to his own satisfaction under fifty years ago

1019
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: to walden Um, you know, I mean you head back

1020
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: at the times of Marcus Polo and Genghis Khan. You know,

1021
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: with the global spice trade, you know, people get stuff

1022
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 1: from other places. On the other hand, you know, generating

1023
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 1: at least a portion of one's own food again leads

1024
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: to a kind of intelligence or at least awareness, you know,

1025
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: And I made the point in the paper that whether

1026
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: you're pulling the trigger on a deer or pulling carrots

1027
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: out of your own home garden, you know you're you're

1028
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 1: getting something. There's there's value added there that that you're

1029
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: getting and and it can lead. It doesn't automatically lead,

1030
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: but it can lead to a kind of deeper wisdom,

1031
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: a deeper knowledge about the way of the world. And

1032
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: death is part of the world. And that's where you know,

1033
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: I make the point that some of the militant vegetarians

1034
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: who don't sort of see the the cost and animal

1035
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 1: lives of a field tilled for soybeans, for example, you know,

1036
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: there's thousands and thousands and thousands of bowls and moles

1037
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: and mice and shrews, and you know, all of it

1038
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: that that that die for a field of soybeans to

1039
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: make tofu. And you know, there's no generally no awareness.

1040
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it never, but mostly not not there.

1041
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 1: It's hard. It's hard to enact anything in your life

1042
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: that that stands to to remove the fact that you're

1043
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: a consumption engine. That's what you do. You wake up

1044
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 1: at the morning and you consume the world around you

1045
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 1: in order to live. And so that disconnection is is

1046
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 1: the one thing that bothers me the most because I

1047
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: think it it just at the end of the day,

1048
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: you must understand. You know, we say these things and

1049
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: a lot of philosophers have said the better than eye,

1050
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: but you know, life eats life and all this that

1051
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: we say that, but that really is the truth. And

1052
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 1: it's how we come to terms without and how we

1053
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: decide to to move forward with that idea and move

1054
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 1: forward with how we see the world that's important. I think, um,

1055
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 1: and I think you ask a question here that um

1056
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 1: everyone should should has tried to answer. I think, which

1057
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: is why does here's the why does hunting give us pleasure?

1058
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: You know, what is the thing about it that gives

1059
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: us pleasure? And how do you how would you explain

1060
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 1: that from this, here's where you start getting into the

1061
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 1: deeper or philosophical question about the essence of hunting. And

1062
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: Ortega himself said, hunting is not you know, it's a

1063
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 1: type of diversion. And I think what he meant by

1064
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 1: that is it's as recreation is fundamentally a form of play,

1065
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: whether in your own mind you're re enacting the days

1066
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: of the settlers or Davy Crocket or Daniel Boone, or

1067
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: there's a primitivism or an atavism about it, um that

1068
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: that is essentially a type of play acting. You know,

1069
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 1: you're you're sort of playing at your role of being

1070
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 1: a predator within, you know, the broader ecological landscape. And

1071
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: the pleasure is in part derived from the difficulty of

1072
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: the task itself, the challenge, the effort, you know, and

1073
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: and and here's where again the philosophy of play and

1074
01:00:55,040 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 1: games and sport give us a very good understanding of

1075
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: how complex games can generate a depth of enthusiasm and appreciation.

1076
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 1: You know, the cliche that you know chess is better

1077
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: than checkers, it's because you know, chess has many more

1078
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: dimensions in terms of strategy and in terms of moves

1079
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 1: and in terms of complexity and thinking five steps out

1080
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: or ten steps out, um and and hunting has that

1081
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 1: kind of complexity. You need to understand animal behavior, you

1082
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 1: need to understand plant biology and geology and hydrology. You

1083
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: need to understand the weather, You understand when you know,

1084
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 1: you need to understand scent. If you're a bird hunter,

1085
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 1: you need to understand how your dog works. Um. You know.

1086
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: So all of that package together makes hunting an incredibly

1087
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 1: enriching and rewarding activity. That's that's that's unique. You can't

1088
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: really get that. You know the places. You know, you

1089
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 1: can go backpacking on the Appalachian Trail and you know

1090
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 1: you're sort of flying through the landscape trying to you know,

1091
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: put in your twenty miles and you're not really stopping

1092
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 1: to smell the roses or understand much else other than

1093
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: just pounding out miles. And you know, hunting really immerses

1094
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 1: you in a landscape and in a habitat, in an

1095
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: environment where you know you. Immersion is a good word

1096
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: for it. Yeah, And we just talking about it being

1097
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: a three dimensional experience. There's so many things you add

1098
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: to it. If you were to to ride on a

1099
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 1: roller coaster, you get a thrill, You get excitement. It's

1100
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: two dimensional. It doesn't really have depth to it. Um

1101
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 1: and critics of hunting, you know, the roller coaster comparisons

1102
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 1: really neat because a lot of people who don't hunt

1103
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 1: think about how hunting is all about killing and you're

1104
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 1: just killing for thrill or killing for fun. And you

1105
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: know what most non hunters aren't aware of is the

1106
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 1: hours and hours and hours and hours that go by.

1107
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: Where As Ortega says, you fight the beast's absence, and

1108
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 1: I think that's a wonderful line, because you know, and

1109
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 1: and people who make the mistake of watching hunting shows

1110
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 1: on TV, all they see is the moment of the killing.

1111
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: They don't see the thirty hours of sitting around with

1112
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: cold feet waiting for that to happen. And uh, you know,

1113
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: so that's another thing that lends to the sort of

1114
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: almost character building part of it. You know. It teaches

1115
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: you humility, you you have to learn patients. I think

1116
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 1: to be a to be a good hunter, among other things.

1117
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: And I've always wondered, you know, why hunting stuck with

1118
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 1: me among other things. You know, my brother is never,

1119
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: never hunted, and it's not interested in it. My father

1120
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 1: kind of went away from it until I got interested

1121
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: in it, but did it as a child. His grandfather

1122
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 1: never really did it that much, So why why did

1123
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 1: it sticking me? And I don't know what my young

1124
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 1: mind was thinking, but I know now as an adult,

1125
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 1: I'm sticking with it because of of what you're just saying.

1126
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 1: And I feel like it's it's transformative for me and

1127
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: if I can somehow relate that the people around me

1128
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 1: and others, I think that's exactly what our society and

1129
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 1: culture needs. And you also say in the book, you

1130
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: say the ideals of tragic pleasure and tragic knowledge lead

1131
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: ultimately to my articulation development of the idea of tragic

1132
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 1: wisdom hunting. I think we've already kind of talked around

1133
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 1: the idea, but can you talk a little bit about

1134
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: tragic wisdom. Well, you know this. You had mentioned how

1135
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: the philosophers will say, you know, life eats other life.

1136
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 1: And now Albert Alfred North the Whitehead, was the one

1137
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: who said life is robbery, and and again your point

1138
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 1: that life exists at the expense of other life. And

1139
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 1: I think that wisdom in part has to do with

1140
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 1: the recognition of one's own place in the cosmos and

1141
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 1: one's own one, one's own place in the sort of

1142
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: the hierarchical chain of being, you know, kind of an

1143
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: old fashioned notion um, but also in awareness of one's

1144
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 1: own one, one's own word reality. You know. Uh, that

1145
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: animal on the ground, Someday that's gonna be me. And

1146
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's often commented on how his hunters get

1147
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 1: older and more mature, and then as they age, uh,

1148
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: sometimes they occasionally get less and less willing to pull

1149
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 1: the trigger, or more reluctant maybe is a better way

1150
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: to put it. And I find that with myself that

1151
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 1: as time has gone on, I'm I'm somewhat ambivalent about

1152
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: pulling the trigger. You know. I'll watch twenty or thirty

1153
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 1: deer go by and and there's a part of me

1154
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 1: that says, well, not today, you know. And it doesn't

1155
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 1: mean I'm not hunting it just, uh, I don't know.

1156
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 1: As Mike Gaddis says, I think I quote him in

1157
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 1: that paper, you know, the life you take is not

1158
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 1: all that different from your own. Yeah, I think that

1159
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: I've run into that a lot. What do you speak

1160
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 1: of a lot of my the hunters. I admire some

1161
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 1: of my idols within hunting and the outdoor space have

1162
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 1: have softened in their older years, have have either lost,

1163
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 1: you know, the gumption of youth or have become more

1164
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: philosophical in the way that they approached death, and therefore,

1165
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 1: you know, don't want to experience it as much as

1166
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 1: they might have earlier. Do you feel like that's that

1167
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,479
Speaker 1: that's that persists throughout hunting's history. Yeah, I think that's

1168
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 1: part of it. But I also think you know, your

1169
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:19,439
Speaker 1: your skills improve as a hunter and you get better

1170
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 1: at it. You know, I fell in love with grouse hunting.

1171
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 1: And part of why I fell in love with grouse

1172
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 1: hunting because it's so damned difficult. To me, it's the

1173
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 1: most difficult kind of hunting to try and locate grouse,

1174
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:30,160
Speaker 1: have them hold over a point, then shoot him on

1175
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:34,439
Speaker 1: the wing, and every single grouse I to shoot if

1176
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 1: and when it happens. That's a trophy. Um. And you know,

1177
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 1: after you know, fifteen years go by, you get a

1178
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: certain amount of competence at it, and all of a

1179
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 1: sudden you realize it's not really about a body count.

1180
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's not to just sort of show hey,

1181
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:54,240
Speaker 1: I can do this, because you know, you can do it.

1182
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 1: And that's where I think hunting turns into more of

1183
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 1: an art form and you get more and more interested

1184
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 1: in the questions of technique and how you hunt. And

1185
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 1: so this is you know, people say this with big

1186
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 1: game hunting all the time. You know, you start out

1187
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 1: with a rifle, and once you get really good at that,

1188
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: maybe you switch over to archery and you use a

1189
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 1: compound bow. And then once you get pretty competent at that,

1190
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 1: maybe you switch over to a recurve or a stick

1191
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:23,880
Speaker 1: pow um. And those additional refinements are a way of

1192
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 1: keeping your interest in the game but making the game

1193
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: more interesting and more challenging, requiring more skill or different skills,

1194
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 1: different levels of effort. Uh. And I think hunters who

1195
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 1: go through that kind of metamorphosis, I think continue to

1196
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 1: find that the hunt enthralls them and engages them in

1197
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 1: the absence of a body count. Yeah, and it's it's

1198
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: fun to if you even think about those around you,

1199
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 1: you know, folks that you're hunting with, folks for a

1200
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: long time to watch other hunters go through those changes

1201
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:01,360
Speaker 1: and to start, you know, I've watched and talked to

1202
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 1: a lot of through through our current efforts here at

1203
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: the unecollectible. A lot of adult onset hunters, will we

1204
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 1: call them? I think we got to create a different name, probably,

1205
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 1: but something more, something more appealing. But adult onset hunters.

1206
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 1: How quickly they moved through the process that took me

1207
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: two decades to move through. How you know how quickly

1208
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: they moved through just wanting to be safe and understand

1209
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 1: what's going on, to to wanting to study the natural world,

1210
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:28,400
Speaker 1: to then wanting to understand death, and then being jumping

1211
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: into the culinary aspects of it. And that it starts

1212
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 1: to just enrich started life in ways that they would

1213
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 1: never have imagined. And so it's good to kind of

1214
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 1: here you articulately the philosophical um bounds in which that

1215
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 1: all happens. Yeah, you know, that's been my experience anyway. Yeah,

1216
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:52,080
Speaker 1: you say you you quote Richard Palmer in this piece

1217
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 1: um that the tragic form generation. Yeah, theory of tragedy,

1218
01:08:57,520 --> 01:08:59,919
Speaker 1: and it starts by saying an essential part of tragedies

1219
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 1: unresolved and unresolvable emotional paradox. Right, you talked about that

1220
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, this would be that twinge of

1221
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:08,640
Speaker 1: regret at the moment of the kill when I was

1222
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 1: doing my PhD, the dissertation research. Um I ran across

1223
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:17,479
Speaker 1: an old Victorian print. I think I might even describe

1224
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 1: it in that article or in other places, where it

1225
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,720
Speaker 1: shows a bird hunter and he's got the double you know,

1226
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,839
Speaker 1: the double barrel shotgun just cracked open, a little whisper

1227
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:29,799
Speaker 1: smoke coming out of the breach. He's holding a bird,

1228
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:31,760
Speaker 1: I believe it was a woodcock, and he's got his

1229
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 1: center at his at his knee, and he's looking at

1230
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:37,479
Speaker 1: the bird kind of funny. And and it's at the

1231
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,280
Speaker 1: you know, the moment of the killer. He's just harvested

1232
01:09:39,360 --> 01:09:42,519
Speaker 1: this bird. And the title of the print was the

1233
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:47,839
Speaker 1: moment of regret. And again it's that idea that you know, hooray,

1234
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 1: I just I did it. I got what I was

1235
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 1: out for. And at the same time, now I wish

1236
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:54,639
Speaker 1: I hadn't done it, or I wish I could throw

1237
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:57,480
Speaker 1: this bird back up in the sky into incident replay,

1238
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 1: you know. And and again it's not that the kill

1239
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 1: validates the hunt. It's just it's the hunt itself that's

1240
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 1: the pursuit. Is the thrill of the chase, you know,

1241
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:10,759
Speaker 1: that really old fashioned notion, The thrill of the chase,

1242
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:15,519
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, people who run hounds are probably

1243
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:18,720
Speaker 1: the most articulate about this, whether you're hounding bears or

1244
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 1: raccoons or rabbits with beagles or with you know, hounds

1245
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:25,760
Speaker 1: with mountain lions. You know, a good friend of mine

1246
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 1: was a Montana biologies years and years ago, and he,

1247
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:30,720
Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't himself a mountain lion hunter, but

1248
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,679
Speaker 1: he had gone along on a bunch of mountain lion hunts,

1249
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: and he says, you know, the first time, the houseman

1250
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 1: will take a sport out and then the sport they'll

1251
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:39,880
Speaker 1: tree a mountain lion, and the and the guy from

1252
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:41,719
Speaker 1: out of state, will you know, shoot a mountain line

1253
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 1: so that he can say he's done it and take

1254
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 1: the pelton whatever if the if the the hunter comes

1255
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 1: back the following year and and they reenact the hunt,

1256
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 1: he says, more often than not, they'll tree a mountain

1257
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:57,720
Speaker 1: lion and the hunter will elect not to kill the

1258
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 1: mountain lion, and his friend of mine seawan. He says,

1259
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:02,120
Speaker 1: that's the closest thing I've ever seen to catch and

1260
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: release hunting. And what he was describing was the fact

1261
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:10,760
Speaker 1: that what's exciting about mountain lion hunting is listening to

1262
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:13,840
Speaker 1: the damn hounds and following you know, in a jeep

1263
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 1: or on a horse or on foot, even with GPS

1264
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 1: on all the collars and all of it. You know,

1265
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 1: that's the excitement. The shooting of a cat out of

1266
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:25,760
Speaker 1: a tree is anticlimactic. You know, there's there's just nothing

1267
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 1: to it. And uh And I think that that also

1268
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 1: captures something of this idea of the you know, again,

1269
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:36,519
Speaker 1: it's the pursuit, you know, it's it's it's that that's

1270
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:39,920
Speaker 1: what matters. Yeah. The content you touched on here too

1271
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 1: is the respect right when when when that moment of

1272
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 1: regret comes, and we try to depict that as a

1273
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 1: hunting community, we're also trying to depict there's some respect there, right,

1274
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:53,519
Speaker 1: and that and that you you talk about this paper,

1275
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 1: but I know, you know, like there's a lot of

1276
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:59,439
Speaker 1: anti hunters and that's scoff at the idea of the

1277
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 1: respect you can have for an animal you're just killed,

1278
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: right right. Yeah, And I think that's again partly people

1279
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 1: criticizing what they don't experience or don't understand, you know.

1280
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 1: And I think the idea of respect at the moment

1281
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:16,760
Speaker 1: the killers, why you go through such efforts too. You know, um,

1282
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:20,600
Speaker 1: clean the animal and get it quickly on ice or

1283
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:24,240
Speaker 1: cooled and you know, packaged and frozen. You know, in

1284
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:28,680
Speaker 1: part you're honoring the animal, uh, and not just that

1285
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:31,439
Speaker 1: individual animal, but the you know, the species. You know,

1286
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 1: if you kill a deer, that that individual deer you've

1287
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:38,960
Speaker 1: just killed is kind of a totem for deer in

1288
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 1: general and the game suppers and the celebration of the

1289
01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 1: lives that have to be sacrificed to sustain our lives. Uh.

1290
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 1: You know, that's part of that respect, that's part of

1291
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:56,760
Speaker 1: that honor and and all of that's you know, highly ritualized.

1292
01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 1: It's it's a type of cultural uh selli ration, but

1293
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:06,400
Speaker 1: it's another very important part of hunting writ large. It's

1294
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:09,639
Speaker 1: it's it's part of the total package. And I think

1295
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:11,760
Speaker 1: you when you start talking about death again, you get

1296
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:13,120
Speaker 1: back to that kind step and then you have a

1297
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: respect for death, um and what it really means, what

1298
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 1: it looks like in its raw form. Because I think

1299
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 1: we've taken a lot of we've talked about this on

1300
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:24,080
Speaker 1: this program, we've taken a lot of new hunters out.

1301
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:26,559
Speaker 1: And the thing that struck me about that's fairly consistent

1302
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 1: about this and that struck me the most. I guess

1303
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:31,560
Speaker 1: that you could say struck me emotionally the most is

1304
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:34,439
Speaker 1: the idea that you might drop an animal on the spot.

1305
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 1: There may be some some muscle twitch, you know, a

1306
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:41,679
Speaker 1: leg may jump. You know, we've all seen it as hunters.

1307
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,639
Speaker 1: You know, you kind of know what's happening. This animal

1308
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:46,559
Speaker 1: is just the last vestage of its life. It's it's dead,

1309
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 1: but um, there's still a little bit of life left.

1310
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:52,280
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of new hunters struggle with that.

1311
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 1: And and when I was a twelve year old boy,

1312
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 1: I'm telling my dad, shoot it again, shoot it again,

1313
01:13:57,040 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 1: shoot it again. I've seen that from a lot of

1314
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:02,920
Speaker 1: other new hunters. Is I've I've taken out folks here

1315
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:05,280
Speaker 1: in a recent decade. What do you think that is?

1316
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:08,080
Speaker 1: Do you think that's just us, you know, being confronted

1317
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 1: with death and not wanting to see it, not wanting

1318
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:13,320
Speaker 1: to understand that there is a struggle there. Yeah, that's

1319
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 1: partly it. But I think you know, I mean not

1320
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:19,759
Speaker 1: answer your question very directly, but I'll answer a different

1321
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 1: question that you haven't asked, you know, about hunter recruitment

1322
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 1: and bringing young people into hunting and not hunters in

1323
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 1: a hunting you know, I think a lot of times

1324
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 1: when we make the mistake or the hunting community does

1325
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 1: by by pushing people to hunt big game right off

1326
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 1: the bat, you know, hunt deer, you know, and you

1327
01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:38,800
Speaker 1: get these six year olds on YouTube hunting deer, and

1328
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:42,160
Speaker 1: you know, twelve year old you know whoever? Girls, boys,

1329
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:48,639
Speaker 1: And the older tradition of starting youth out with small game,

1330
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 1: whether it's rabbits or squirrels. Um, you know, the emotional

1331
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:58,400
Speaker 1: impact what you're you're you're you're easing them into that

1332
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:02,320
Speaker 1: emotional ambivalence at the moment of the kill if you

1333
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 1: start small or smaller, you know. And I think if

1334
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:09,360
Speaker 1: you start with rabbits, or you start with pheasants, or

1335
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 1: you start with pen raised quail or chucker, and move

1336
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:17,600
Speaker 1: your way up slowly to the point where, you know,

1337
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 1: you tackle big game down the line, and I think

1338
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:23,120
Speaker 1: that would make it a lot easier, you know, if

1339
01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 1: we allowed young hunters to go through that progression, uh,

1340
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 1: you know, so that they don't sort of overreact at

1341
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:32,600
Speaker 1: that moment of death when the legs, you know, of

1342
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:36,840
Speaker 1: the deer kicking. Yeah, you know, and and and so

1343
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 1: I don't think we do them any favors by by

1344
01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 1: sort of pushing that process. How about yourself in your

1345
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:44,080
Speaker 1: in your own life when you're you know, we've we've

1346
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:46,680
Speaker 1: talked about this in the past and the podcast, how

1347
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:49,160
Speaker 1: we're kind of comparing the experience of being an adult

1348
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 1: onset hunter the way you're able to acknowledge some of

1349
01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 1: the entanglements whereas a twelve year older, just as this

1350
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:57,719
Speaker 1: is how I came to it just following my father.

1351
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 1: It was more about being with him and being around

1352
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 1: and it develops into other things, but it's certainly there,

1353
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:06,720
Speaker 1: and folks that are coming to in the thirty five

1354
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 1: or forty or older are able to appreciate the entangments

1355
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:13,080
Speaker 1: and walk when they're getting into it. How did you

1356
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:16,479
Speaker 1: find that in your early experience? Well, you know, I

1357
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 1: don't know. And here's another case where I'm probably not

1358
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 1: gonna answer that question, but a different one like it

1359
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:23,160
Speaker 1: has to do. You know, we have different motivations with

1360
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 1: different kinds of hunting. So for grouse hunting, you know,

1361
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:28,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do everything the one true correct way. I

1362
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:30,479
Speaker 1: always make a big joke of this, you know, it's

1363
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:33,479
Speaker 1: with a double gun shotgun of Parker, you know, built

1364
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:37,040
Speaker 1: nineteen ten over an English center and only in the

1365
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:42,400
Speaker 1: air and a sixty engage. And you know, so to me,

1366
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: the artistry of grouse hunting is partly what motivates me

1367
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 1: to get out in the woods, you know, versus deer hunting.

1368
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:52,360
Speaker 1: I'm more about filling the freezer, you know, the first

1369
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:54,720
Speaker 1: year that comes along seven oh one on opening day.

1370
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 1: If it's brown, it's down. And I'm not as interested

1371
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 1: in making you're hunting a kind of art form, whereas

1372
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:05,519
Speaker 1: I have other friends you know who you know, they'll

1373
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:08,479
Speaker 1: still hunt deer, they'll track them in the in the snow,

1374
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:12,840
Speaker 1: they'll they'll you know, do the entire archery season waiting

1375
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:15,920
Speaker 1: for mobi buck to come along. And and that's what

1376
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:20,120
Speaker 1: defines them as hunters. Um you know, duck hunting, you know,

1377
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 1: you can carve your own decoys out of cork and

1378
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:27,559
Speaker 1: build your own duck calls and shoot them on the wing.

1379
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 1: Or you can put a bunch of plastic flamboat deeks

1380
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:33,120
Speaker 1: in the water and sluice the first mallard to swing

1381
01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 1: among your decoys, you know, And and it's all good

1382
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:39,720
Speaker 1: to me. This is where we get back to the

1383
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:43,240
Speaker 1: thing about hunters pointing their fingers at other hunters. You know, everybody,

1384
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 1: you know, most hunters are purest about one or two

1385
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:49,679
Speaker 1: different kinds of hunting. Um, but it's rare that somebody

1386
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 1: is the purest about absolutely all of them. You know,

1387
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:56,080
Speaker 1: when I'm grouse hunting, I'm usually by myself. When I'm

1388
01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 1: goose hunting in January, on my back in a cornfield,

1389
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:01,960
Speaker 1: there's by for six guys with me, And partly what

1390
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:05,759
Speaker 1: makes that fun is the group hunt part of it. Yeah,

1391
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:07,960
Speaker 1: and I'm not a very social person. I don't generally

1392
01:18:08,040 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 1: like the group hunt, but goose hunting is the one,

1393
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 1: uh place where I just I love it. That's become

1394
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:17,559
Speaker 1: kind of a passion for me. Yeah, And it's funny

1395
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:19,200
Speaker 1: how those things go in your life, where that you're

1396
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 1: introduced to something, and to me, it's it's time and

1397
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:25,800
Speaker 1: access or time and opportunity often are big factors in it.

1398
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:27,760
Speaker 1: But you know, for me, I I love to be

1399
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:32,639
Speaker 1: I really love sitting in a tree stand for twelve hours.

1400
01:18:32,720 --> 01:18:34,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you just don't there's just it's there's a

1401
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:37,439
Speaker 1: meditation there. Whether you accept it or not, it just

1402
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. You can walk around and ask a million people.

1403
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,520
Speaker 1: Have you ever sat in a tree all day? And

1404
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 1: and all of them will probably tell you know, And

1405
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 1: so there's some But I also love being in a

1406
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 1: deer camp with a bunch of guys and sharing that experience.

1407
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 1: And I've increasingly been more drawn over the last couple

1408
01:18:56,400 --> 01:18:58,639
Speaker 1: of years to be in with a lot of people

1409
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:01,760
Speaker 1: while I'm hunting. We're before it was a more solitary thing.

1410
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 1: So I guess maybe hunting it can be a reflection

1411
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 1: of where you're at in your life in that way,

1412
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:08,640
Speaker 1: you know what, I think, what do you value? I

1413
01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:11,680
Speaker 1: think that's really true. Yeah, And like I said, it's

1414
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:14,080
Speaker 1: fun to kind of compare and contrast with other people

1415
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:17,080
Speaker 1: when they came into hunting, where they value it and

1416
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:20,360
Speaker 1: and how that's moved around. I love that conversation because

1417
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 1: I think it provides all kinds of perspectives. Um that

1418
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:26,880
Speaker 1: we were talking about you one thing you we've brought

1419
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:29,519
Speaker 1: up a bunch I don't know that we've explained it

1420
01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 1: as well. You explain in your paper hunting is a

1421
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:35,720
Speaker 1: serious art. Um and you quote Joyce Carol Oates and

1422
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:38,559
Speaker 1: she says she speaks of the awareness of life's tragic

1423
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:42,960
Speaker 1: ambiguity that serious art provides and she makes an argument

1424
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 1: then about the sport of boxing should be considered a

1425
01:19:45,479 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 1: serious art, and you argue that that hunting And we've talked.

1426
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:51,840
Speaker 1: You mentioned that hunting is is a serious art. Can

1427
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:55,720
Speaker 1: you kind of talk through that philosophical construct Yeah. The

1428
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:57,920
Speaker 1: Joy's Carol Oates book, by the way, it is just

1429
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:00,800
Speaker 1: tremendous and if you don't know, you should go out

1430
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:03,439
Speaker 1: by it today. It's I mean all that there's there's

1431
01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:05,960
Speaker 1: about four or five books I've read Ortega, but some

1432
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:10,920
Speaker 1: of these other great Yeah, no, it's a great, great book.

1433
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:12,960
Speaker 1: But you know, when I was doing my dissertation work

1434
01:20:13,360 --> 01:20:16,840
Speaker 1: and thinking through this kind of theme, I look to

1435
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:20,880
Speaker 1: other blood sports and other activities for sort of analogous

1436
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:24,400
Speaker 1: ways of interpreting hunting. And the thing that really struck

1437
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:31,280
Speaker 1: me was the Spanish bullfighting and the bullfight literature. Unlike

1438
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 1: the American hunting literature or even the global you know,

1439
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 1: whether it's German or you know, people who thought about hunting,

1440
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:42,200
Speaker 1: recreational sport hunting, the bullfight literature is the most self

1441
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:47,800
Speaker 1: aware collection of accounts of people interpreting the bull fight,

1442
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,519
Speaker 1: not as a bull fight, not as killing a bull

1443
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:54,439
Speaker 1: not as waving you know, a cape around, but just

1444
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:58,439
Speaker 1: how to interpret the larger sort of cultural phenomenon of

1445
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 1: the bullfight and how to assess its meaning. And to me,

1446
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:12,519
Speaker 1: the Spanish people in general have been very conscious of

1447
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:15,920
Speaker 1: the sort of larger symbolism of the bullfight for hundreds

1448
01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 1: of years. I mean now sadly a lot of that

1449
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:23,559
Speaker 1: is slipping away, and they're they're starting to ban the

1450
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:26,519
Speaker 1: bullfight in more and more locations. But at least for

1451
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:30,600
Speaker 1: a long while there there was an awareness of the

1452
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:35,519
Speaker 1: bullfight as a type of artistic dance and again all

1453
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:39,320
Speaker 1: highly ritualized and all choreographed, and every little move down

1454
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:42,960
Speaker 1: to the pirouettes, that they each have a unique meaning.

1455
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:48,559
Speaker 1: And an excellent book in English languages is Hemingway's Death

1456
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:52,840
Speaker 1: in the Afternoon. Um. And to me, that was what

1457
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 1: was missing from the sort of American you know, philosophy

1458
01:21:56,920 --> 01:22:01,360
Speaker 1: of hunting, uh literature. You know, mentioned Jim Swan, There's

1459
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 1: a host of others, Ted carros Oti, David Peterson, all

1460
01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:08,479
Speaker 1: of them, and most of them don't interpret hunting as

1461
01:22:08,520 --> 01:22:13,080
Speaker 1: a cultural phenomenon, you know, they interpret it sort of

1462
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:18,000
Speaker 1: is a biological act of harvesting food, and I think

1463
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:21,360
Speaker 1: that just leads to a set of blinders where you

1464
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:26,400
Speaker 1: fail to sort of recognize hunting's true greatness at you know,

1465
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:31,120
Speaker 1: provoking these larger themes and these larger thoughts and this

1466
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:36,520
Speaker 1: deeper awareness about about you know, the human place and nature. Um,

1467
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, hunting can generate that. It doesn't often, but

1468
01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 1: it can, Yeah, if you allow it to. It definitely

1469
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:45,599
Speaker 1: can if you see it for what it for what

1470
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 1: it is and can be. Definitely can and not always,

1471
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:53,280
Speaker 1: and it will more often than not provide that. There's

1472
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:55,680
Speaker 1: there's difference. You know, you have reflective hunters and you

1473
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:58,280
Speaker 1: have people who are unreflective hunters. But that's not unique

1474
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:00,360
Speaker 1: to hunting them. That's true in society and role. You

1475
01:23:00,360 --> 01:23:03,960
Speaker 1: have a lot of people who they're just not reflective.

1476
01:23:03,960 --> 01:23:08,439
Speaker 1: They don't think in sort of like philosophical ways. And

1477
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 1: that's okay. I'm sure you can boxing too. I mean

1478
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:13,720
Speaker 1: there's probably a lot of boxers that think it's a

1479
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:15,720
Speaker 1: sweet science and there's others that think, well, I have

1480
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:19,160
Speaker 1: to do this to win. Were people on the outside

1481
01:23:19,160 --> 01:23:21,400
Speaker 1: looking and they're just like, that's two idiots beating the

1482
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:24,759
Speaker 1: snot out of each other. It's like, you know, which

1483
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:28,400
Speaker 1: miss is basically the whole point. So do you feel

1484
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:29,920
Speaker 1: like these things that you know, hunting is one of

1485
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:34,400
Speaker 1: those things that needs to that has depth and if

1486
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:36,439
Speaker 1: you want to understand in the way that that you've

1487
01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:39,400
Speaker 1: articulated and understand it, you have to spend time with it,

1488
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:42,519
Speaker 1: and you have to be around people that that really

1489
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 1: appreciated it in this way, much like bullfighting. You know,

1490
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 1: I wonder if if our society because how complex and

1491
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:51,679
Speaker 1: difficult this is, and there are so many other options

1492
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:54,400
Speaker 1: out there that if we just like naturally move away

1493
01:23:54,439 --> 01:23:58,920
Speaker 1: from it. Um in a sense, dude, you know, I

1494
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:02,040
Speaker 1: wrote that three hundred fifty page dissertation and I handed

1495
01:24:02,040 --> 01:24:04,559
Speaker 1: it to my mother and she read it, and she

1496
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:07,120
Speaker 1: hands it back and she summarized it in ten words.

1497
01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:10,080
Speaker 1: She's like, your arguments basically, don't knock it until you've

1498
01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:14,080
Speaker 1: tried it. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that was an

1499
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:17,760
Speaker 1: instantly humbling moment, because you know why I just spent

1500
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:20,400
Speaker 1: you know, X number of years and three pages on

1501
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:25,679
Speaker 1: an argument. Um. But I don't think you absolutely have

1502
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:28,439
Speaker 1: to hunt to understand, honey. I think it's possible for

1503
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:32,000
Speaker 1: a non hunter to grasp some of the essence of

1504
01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 1: what hunting means to other people, even if it's not

1505
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:36,920
Speaker 1: their taste. And I'll go back to that or take quote,

1506
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:41,720
Speaker 1: um man does not hunt to kill. He kills in

1507
01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:46,759
Speaker 1: order to have hunted him. During my dissertation, and my wife,

1508
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:48,840
Speaker 1: God bless her, didn't grow up hunting. You know, she's

1509
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:55,080
Speaker 1: a suburban Connecticut you know, uh urban uh vegetarian. For

1510
01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:57,160
Speaker 1: a long while, you know, the hunting was about as

1511
01:24:57,160 --> 01:24:59,400
Speaker 1: far from what she wanted to be thinking about as

1512
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:02,200
Speaker 1: any it could be. And I would mention that or

1513
01:25:02,280 --> 01:25:04,400
Speaker 1: take a quote to her and she's like, I don't

1514
01:25:04,400 --> 01:25:06,879
Speaker 1: get that. That doesn't make any sense. That's sort of stupid.

1515
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:10,439
Speaker 1: And I thought about that for quite a while and

1516
01:25:10,479 --> 01:25:12,320
Speaker 1: then it finally hit me and I had an analogy.

1517
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:15,360
Speaker 1: I said, when you know, it's a little it's a

1518
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:18,559
Speaker 1: lot like shopping, right, And she likes to shop. You know,

1519
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:20,960
Speaker 1: she grew up going to suburban Connecticut mall. As I say,

1520
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, you don't shop to buy Comma, you buy

1521
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:28,679
Speaker 1: in order to have shopped. And all of a sudden,

1522
01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 1: it's like you could see the little light bulb go

1523
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:33,439
Speaker 1: off and over her head and she's like, yeah, that

1524
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:35,840
Speaker 1: brings me so much. It brings me so much joy

1525
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:37,000
Speaker 1: to hear do you say that? Because I say it

1526
01:25:37,040 --> 01:25:39,080
Speaker 1: to my my wife all the time. I'm like this,

1527
01:25:39,280 --> 01:25:42,120
Speaker 1: this it's the Black Friday things like opening Day, dear season,

1528
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:44,840
Speaker 1: you go to the mall, you know, and you are

1529
01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:47,320
Speaker 1: some sort of browsed, and you come home with some shrinking.

1530
01:25:47,400 --> 01:25:50,280
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, you know, that's validates what you did.

1531
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:53,760
Speaker 1: And and and and even though she's never hunted, you know,

1532
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:56,760
Speaker 1: I think that moment was an eye opener for her.

1533
01:25:56,840 --> 01:25:59,880
Speaker 1: She finally kind of got I think at least you

1534
01:26:00,040 --> 01:26:02,960
Speaker 1: know that that truth that dynamic. Yeah, and and I

1535
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:05,920
Speaker 1: haven't conducted the hunt right or even shopping. If you

1536
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,920
Speaker 1: really appreciate it, you'll you can you can do it better.

1537
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:12,479
Speaker 1: If you understand that that that's what you're after, then

1538
01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:15,799
Speaker 1: you can really appreciate those smaller things. And I've certainly

1539
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:18,599
Speaker 1: over the last couple years trying to hunt slower um

1540
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:21,960
Speaker 1: and be more deliberate and and treat it like a craft,

1541
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 1: because because that's how I feel it is for sure.

1542
01:26:25,479 --> 01:26:29,280
Speaker 1: And and the conclusion of your paper, you you said

1543
01:26:29,320 --> 01:26:31,519
Speaker 1: something that I think is the crux of this show,

1544
01:26:31,680 --> 01:26:33,680
Speaker 1: kind of the genesis of why I felt like this

1545
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:37,519
Speaker 1: is a worthy uh worthy to have a podcast, a

1546
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:41,840
Speaker 1: weekly podcast. You said, the complation, the contemplation of death

1547
01:26:41,880 --> 01:26:44,680
Speaker 1: and hunting can be a tragic pleasure. Hunters and philosophers

1548
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:47,639
Speaker 1: of the of the hunt consistently agree about the necessity

1549
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:51,479
Speaker 1: of the kill, but they often disagree about why why

1550
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:53,280
Speaker 1: do we hunt? And why it's hunting a good thing?

1551
01:26:53,320 --> 01:26:56,439
Speaker 1: And I think that's something that we could tear down

1552
01:26:56,439 --> 01:27:01,720
Speaker 1: and build back up forever. But um, it's a great discussion. Yeah,

1553
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:04,000
Speaker 1: do you think that do you think that we'll ever

1554
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:08,720
Speaker 1: be able to to collectively understand that that each of

1555
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:11,479
Speaker 1: us has a why, but there's also this macro why,

1556
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:14,880
Speaker 1: this collective why that that we can all articulate together.

1557
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that's a struggle for for all

1558
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:18,760
Speaker 1: of us. And we started off in the beginning saying

1559
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:21,880
Speaker 1: social media has kind of highlighted our differences and it

1560
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:26,599
Speaker 1: makes it hard to understand why for everyone. Yeah, I

1561
01:27:26,640 --> 01:27:29,480
Speaker 1: think so. You know, I used to have this conversation

1562
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:31,920
Speaker 1: with people in the Natural resources department. You know, for

1563
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 1: years and years, you know, the last twenty or three years,

1564
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:38,479
Speaker 1: wildlife managers have been panicking about hunter recruitment. Oh honey,

1565
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, the the age of the hunters is going up.

1566
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:45,320
Speaker 1: We're not recruiting young hunters. The number of licenses sold

1567
01:27:45,320 --> 01:27:48,800
Speaker 1: every year is going down every year. And I used

1568
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:53,160
Speaker 1: to sort of respond with hunting will never go completely

1569
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:58,639
Speaker 1: out of fashion, mainly because it's such a compelling activity

1570
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:03,680
Speaker 1: and there's absolutely no other way that one can experience

1571
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:08,160
Speaker 1: nature firsthand. You know, that sort of total immersion experience.

1572
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:11,880
Speaker 1: You know, when you're actively seeking your prey, wandering aroun

1573
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:15,080
Speaker 1: the woods, you're participating in a way that you're not

1574
01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:20,120
Speaker 1: when you're just hiking. And that I and that's you know,

1575
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:23,000
Speaker 1: that's I don't know. There are people like Jim Swana

1576
01:28:23,040 --> 01:28:25,760
Speaker 1: or others who think, well, that's genetically encoded in our gene.

1577
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:27,800
Speaker 1: I don't know if I buy that, But I just

1578
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:35,160
Speaker 1: think that people will always find that experience um valuable,

1579
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:37,920
Speaker 1: and so I don't. I don't think hunting is ever

1580
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 1: going to go away. I really don't. Yeah, I wonder

1581
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:42,599
Speaker 1: about its future and where it will go. We're certainly

1582
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:46,639
Speaker 1: gonna move, we're certainly moving further from it, I feel, um.

1583
01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:49,760
Speaker 1: But there's also the idea that as we become more

1584
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:53,759
Speaker 1: urban and disconnected, there will be this need for that medicine,

1585
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:57,639
Speaker 1: This need I returned to these ideas, and hunting will

1586
01:28:57,680 --> 01:29:00,680
Speaker 1: be there to kind of to catch that spasmatical. Well,

1587
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:02,479
Speaker 1: we gotta go back, We gotta go back and understand

1588
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 1: the natural world. So honey will be well. And you

1589
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:06,720
Speaker 1: know you are just like you mentioned. I mean, the

1590
01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:09,519
Speaker 1: whole local board movement is very encouraging, just the fact

1591
01:29:09,520 --> 01:29:13,000
Speaker 1: that you have people who care about their food. They

1592
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:14,760
Speaker 1: care about what they put in their bodies. You know,

1593
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:17,800
Speaker 1: to have organically grown deer meat or elk meat or

1594
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:21,720
Speaker 1: goose meat, you know, is a lot different than you know,

1595
01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:25,000
Speaker 1: the unknown stuff that you're buying at the store. You know,

1596
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:26,680
Speaker 1: and a lot has been made recently about the so

1597
01:29:26,760 --> 01:29:29,760
Speaker 1: called impossible burger and the veggie burger and all, and

1598
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:31,720
Speaker 1: you know, people are failing to grasp this is a

1599
01:29:32,360 --> 01:29:35,080
Speaker 1: one of the worst developments food nutrition wise. You know,

1600
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:40,400
Speaker 1: you've got this totally one hundred and five uber processed

1601
01:29:40,520 --> 01:29:43,360
Speaker 1: piece of food with you don't know what chemicals in it.

1602
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:45,599
Speaker 1: People have think, oh, this is great for the planet.

1603
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:50,120
Speaker 1: Nothing dies diagnosis five years from now, when people start

1604
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:52,839
Speaker 1: getting lumps in their lips or whatever. That's my my,

1605
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:54,560
Speaker 1: my favorite thing. If I was trying to have the

1606
01:29:54,600 --> 01:29:57,000
Speaker 1: impossible Burger CEO on for some reason you want to

1607
01:29:57,000 --> 01:29:58,920
Speaker 1: come on there you go. It was weird that he

1608
01:29:59,200 --> 01:30:01,439
Speaker 1: denied our as, but I was gonna ask. I was

1609
01:30:01,479 --> 01:30:04,160
Speaker 1: gonna say, you know, no animals were killed by this burger,

1610
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:07,559
Speaker 1: but we are going to die. And if and if

1611
01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:09,640
Speaker 1: you're going to create a burger and immediately sell it

1612
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:12,439
Speaker 1: a Burger King, that's not very that's not gonna do

1613
01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:14,840
Speaker 1: you well on the marketing side, because anything because Burger

1614
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:17,400
Speaker 1: King is not necessarily worried about our health too much.

1615
01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:20,439
Speaker 1: So good luck, good luck with that. There's some false

1616
01:30:20,479 --> 01:30:22,960
Speaker 1: prophecy there, right, I mean, I think people are trying

1617
01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:26,559
Speaker 1: to well. The thing there that complicates it is this, uh,

1618
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:30,599
Speaker 1: the fear factor of the you know, the linked climate change.

1619
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:32,720
Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot of bad information and

1620
01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 1: misunderstanding about climate change and you know how bad it

1621
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:41,880
Speaker 1: will be, and and and and so it's you know,

1622
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:44,639
Speaker 1: that's your sort of fighting fake news in a lot

1623
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:47,720
Speaker 1: of ways. Yeah, for sure. And and you know the

1624
01:30:48,240 --> 01:30:51,040
Speaker 1: reasons people step into that world, that the world of

1625
01:30:51,120 --> 01:30:55,280
Speaker 1: veganism and trying to you know, disconnect from death and

1626
01:30:55,280 --> 01:30:59,360
Speaker 1: and stop suffering. All those things are impossible to achieve.

1627
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:02,760
Speaker 1: And now you're now, we've we have lab grown meat,

1628
01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:05,920
Speaker 1: we have you know, all these things are gonna are

1629
01:31:05,920 --> 01:31:07,680
Speaker 1: gonna come up. And I've told people, I don't know

1630
01:31:07,680 --> 01:31:09,720
Speaker 1: what you think about this, but I'll tell people that

1631
01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:12,679
Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind if there was an alternative to store

1632
01:31:12,680 --> 01:31:15,960
Speaker 1: bought meat for everyone, if it was plant based, that's okay,

1633
01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:18,960
Speaker 1: But we need to realize that's gonna be as hard

1634
01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:23,160
Speaker 1: as it is to get rid of factory farming and mass.

1635
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:27,240
Speaker 1: You know, I don't mind. I would much rather have, uh,

1636
01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:33,839
Speaker 1: a veggie based hamburger than eat a factory farmed version.

1637
01:31:34,080 --> 01:31:36,640
Speaker 1: But I'm also not gonna sit there and think it's

1638
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:40,519
Speaker 1: a guilt free sandwich. Right. Um? Do you think about

1639
01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 1: that often? Like, how do we get that through to people?

1640
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:45,880
Speaker 1: How do we understand that, you know, even though certain movements,

1641
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:50,000
Speaker 1: certain lifestyles might make you feel good, they're not necessarily

1642
01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:53,360
Speaker 1: what they purport to be. Well, there again, you get

1643
01:31:53,360 --> 01:31:56,320
Speaker 1: back to the you know, people not being very self

1644
01:31:56,360 --> 01:32:00,200
Speaker 1: reflexive or or self aware about those kinds of thing.

1645
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:02,240
Speaker 1: A lot of people just don't want to, you know,

1646
01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:06,160
Speaker 1: have to do that kind of thinking. That's fine, that's true,

1647
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:09,519
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, and it is. We know, we know

1648
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:11,200
Speaker 1: the answer to this question. If you would ask somebody,

1649
01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:14,880
Speaker 1: is not killing something virtuous? Most people say, well, yeah,

1650
01:32:14,920 --> 01:32:17,720
Speaker 1: if you don't have to, it certainly is virtuous. You

1651
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:20,040
Speaker 1: asked this question. I think it's it's an important one.

1652
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:23,040
Speaker 1: Can killing be virtuous? You know? M can you try

1653
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:26,719
Speaker 1: to explain the question and the answer there there Again,

1654
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:29,160
Speaker 1: I think the hunter owns up to the death that

1655
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:31,200
Speaker 1: he or she causes, you know, so at the moment

1656
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:34,160
Speaker 1: you pull that trigger, you own it and and you

1657
01:32:34,200 --> 01:32:37,280
Speaker 1: accept that responsibility. And you could elect not to pull

1658
01:32:37,280 --> 01:32:39,200
Speaker 1: the trigger. So like this, dear season, you know, I

1659
01:32:40,040 --> 01:32:43,800
Speaker 1: not pulled the trigger more than I pulled the trigger. Um.

1660
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:47,960
Speaker 1: And that's a very different kind of moral ownership than

1661
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:51,000
Speaker 1: the casual vegetarian who passed him or herself on the

1662
01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:53,400
Speaker 1: back and says, well, how virtuous I am look at me,

1663
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 1: and is wholely unaware of the cost in animal life

1664
01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:04,800
Speaker 1: of basically factory vegetable farming. You know that that again

1665
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:10,920
Speaker 1: the soy uh you know soybean analogy. They're incredible cost

1666
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:13,439
Speaker 1: of animal life, you know, and that that's just you know,

1667
01:33:13,479 --> 01:33:17,679
Speaker 1: looking the other way. Yeah, it isn't, and it's hard

1668
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:19,800
Speaker 1: to and we've talked about this a lot. You know

1669
01:33:20,240 --> 01:33:23,599
Speaker 1: how it's very hard to convince someone who just doesn't

1670
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:26,360
Speaker 1: want to think about it, uh and a lot of times.

1671
01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:29,600
Speaker 1: And I wonder going forward, is it the least complex

1672
01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:32,120
Speaker 1: idea that's going to win in popular society? You know?

1673
01:33:32,200 --> 01:33:33,960
Speaker 1: Is is the fact that if you don't kill something,

1674
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:35,680
Speaker 1: you don't have to kill something. You know, if you

1675
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:38,880
Speaker 1: don't if you don't eat meat, something doesn't die. Um,

1676
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:43,040
Speaker 1: that seems to be you know, hunting is shrinking, veganism

1677
01:33:43,080 --> 01:33:45,360
Speaker 1: is growing. We've we've talked about this on this show

1678
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:49,479
Speaker 1: a lot. That's not exactly apples to apples, but but

1679
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:53,040
Speaker 1: that is happening. So I just wonder how we're gonna

1680
01:33:53,280 --> 01:33:56,000
Speaker 1: over time fight this idea that we have this complex

1681
01:33:56,680 --> 01:33:59,320
Speaker 1: enriching thing on one side and a very pretty easy

1682
01:33:59,360 --> 01:34:02,120
Speaker 1: to since nationalize and understand idea. And if you're not

1683
01:34:02,280 --> 01:34:06,679
Speaker 1: if you don't eat this meat, something doesn't have to die. Right?

1684
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:10,280
Speaker 1: Do you think there's an endgame there? You know? I

1685
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:14,360
Speaker 1: don't know. I just I don't know how to answer that.

1686
01:34:15,240 --> 01:34:18,240
Speaker 1: I do think there's an evan a flow, you know,

1687
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:21,479
Speaker 1: I think, you know, in my own career as a

1688
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:24,600
Speaker 1: college teacher, you know, twenty years ago, I had a

1689
01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:27,559
Speaker 1: lot of students very interested in animal rights, and right

1690
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:31,160
Speaker 1: now I have basically zero students interested in animal rights.

1691
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:34,880
Speaker 1: They've moved on to other sorts of themes, And so

1692
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:39,360
Speaker 1: part of my background is also in history and looking

1693
01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 1: at sort of things like this. Historically, I suspect the

1694
01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:46,800
Speaker 1: pendulum will swing back again at some point in the

1695
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:53,360
Speaker 1: future toward h more consumptive uses of wildlife and and

1696
01:34:53,400 --> 01:34:57,160
Speaker 1: recreational pursuits such as hunting and and uh you know,

1697
01:34:57,280 --> 01:34:59,080
Speaker 1: so you know. But there again, I'm more of an

1698
01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:01,559
Speaker 1: optimist in terms my personality, you know, I think I'm

1699
01:35:01,600 --> 01:35:05,599
Speaker 1: a half full kind of guy, and and pessimists might

1700
01:35:05,880 --> 01:35:08,960
Speaker 1: might not be so same. When I guess, well, Jim,

1701
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:14,040
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the thought process here. Um, I know

1702
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:17,400
Speaker 1: there's as I as I started to look into your

1703
01:35:17,439 --> 01:35:20,559
Speaker 1: work and read some of your more current writings, there's

1704
01:35:20,600 --> 01:35:24,120
Speaker 1: a lot that you're into. Um. I guess I'll apologize

1705
01:35:24,120 --> 01:35:26,639
Speaker 1: for only focusing on this one paper and this one idea,

1706
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:29,720
Speaker 1: but like I said it, it's increasingly interesting to me.

1707
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:34,080
Speaker 1: It's something I think we could obviously explore. Um. And

1708
01:35:34,120 --> 01:35:38,360
Speaker 1: there's so many references and so many sources that use

1709
01:35:38,400 --> 01:35:40,760
Speaker 1: in this paper. That's probably gonna take me a couple

1710
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:42,519
Speaker 1: of weeks to try to pick up all these books

1711
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:44,880
Speaker 1: and add them to my collection and and read some

1712
01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:47,280
Speaker 1: of those. What what are some of the some of

1713
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:51,280
Speaker 1: your favorite books or resources out there that folks might

1714
01:35:51,280 --> 01:35:53,160
Speaker 1: be able to go to just to learn a little

1715
01:35:53,160 --> 01:35:57,400
Speaker 1: bit more of these kind of philosophic Yeah, you know,

1716
01:35:57,520 --> 01:36:00,400
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of sort of the earlier turn

1717
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:05,040
Speaker 1: of the century, uh, mostly East Coast hunting writers. You know,

1718
01:36:05,080 --> 01:36:07,639
Speaker 1: this is another interesting thing to think about. Historically about

1719
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:10,840
Speaker 1: American hunting. The center of gravity used to be New

1720
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:12,960
Speaker 1: York and the publishing world in New York, and so

1721
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:15,040
Speaker 1: you had people in New England like William Harton and

1722
01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:19,640
Speaker 1: Foster who wrote you know, New England grouse shooting for example. UM.

1723
01:36:20,600 --> 01:36:23,439
Speaker 1: Over time and after World War Two, the center of

1724
01:36:23,439 --> 01:36:27,120
Speaker 1: gravity has shifted to the West, and now you have

1725
01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:32,320
Speaker 1: sort of hunting media and social media dominated by largely

1726
01:36:32,439 --> 01:36:34,840
Speaker 1: you know, sort of Western big game hunting. You know,

1727
01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:40,599
Speaker 1: Montana is the episode of all that's our fault of well,

1728
01:36:40,640 --> 01:36:43,519
Speaker 1: you know, there's a there's good there's good things about that,

1729
01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:47,680
Speaker 1: but there's bad things about that, right because increasingly you

1730
01:36:47,800 --> 01:36:51,360
Speaker 1: have the sort of vision of hunting being shaped by

1731
01:36:51,439 --> 01:36:55,360
Speaker 1: Montana big game hunting and elk hunting in particular, and

1732
01:36:55,479 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 1: you know, deer hunting is it's practiced in places like

1733
01:36:58,200 --> 01:37:02,880
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and michig Getting, you know, which has more licensed

1734
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:05,840
Speaker 1: hold license holders than there are Montana residents. You know,

1735
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:09,639
Speaker 1: Um gets kind of short shrift, gets sort of shifted

1736
01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:11,559
Speaker 1: to the waist side, And to me, I think that's

1737
01:37:11,560 --> 01:37:15,400
Speaker 1: a little unfortunate. So, you know, I actually think the

1738
01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:20,519
Speaker 1: hunting community would benefit from a re engagement with a

1739
01:37:20,600 --> 01:37:25,320
Speaker 1: more geographically diverse instead of hunting writers. Yeah, for sure,

1740
01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:28,320
Speaker 1: we've We've tried very much here. We like at mediate

1741
01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:31,800
Speaker 1: especially and even on this show. We understand the leaning. Yeah,

1742
01:37:31,880 --> 01:37:36,360
Speaker 1: and and I've explained my aspirations to go west started

1743
01:37:36,400 --> 01:37:39,320
Speaker 1: when I was a little kid. Um And I do.

1744
01:37:40,120 --> 01:37:42,160
Speaker 1: I am happy I'm here, but I do as an

1745
01:37:42,160 --> 01:37:45,120
Speaker 1: East Coast guy, we're talking about my my upbringing, where

1746
01:37:45,120 --> 01:37:47,640
Speaker 1: I was from in Maryland. You know, I do understand that.

1747
01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:51,960
Speaker 1: I do know that most hunters see this is a

1748
01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:55,200
Speaker 1: once in a lifetime or once every year thing, and

1749
01:37:55,240 --> 01:37:57,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of hunting, a lot of things that

1750
01:37:57,360 --> 01:37:59,760
Speaker 1: take place. Especially I always think of Pennsylvania, and I'm

1751
01:37:59,800 --> 01:38:01,760
Speaker 1: glad you brought them up. You know, it's kind of

1752
01:38:01,800 --> 01:38:04,839
Speaker 1: this vestige of a different way of hunting deer drives

1753
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:08,880
Speaker 1: and they do bare drives. They're still exactly and these

1754
01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:11,839
Speaker 1: things are these things. There's a there's millions of hunters

1755
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:13,920
Speaker 1: that take part in this, and we cannot forget that

1756
01:38:14,000 --> 01:38:16,439
Speaker 1: with our as we you know, aspire to kill an

1757
01:38:16,439 --> 01:38:19,679
Speaker 1: elk or you know, it's elk hunting is is great,

1758
01:38:19,760 --> 01:38:22,760
Speaker 1: but there's just as much value and what's happening there

1759
01:38:23,520 --> 01:38:26,599
Speaker 1: or in the South where they still hunt deer with hounds.

1760
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:29,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you can go to South Carolina or Louisiana

1761
01:38:29,200 --> 01:38:32,000
Speaker 1: or Florida, you know. And you know, when I used

1762
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:34,000
Speaker 1: to do the hunter ed presentations, you know, I used

1763
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:38,439
Speaker 1: to emphasize, look, as hunter edg hunter ed educators, you're

1764
01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:40,800
Speaker 1: not just training people to hunt in your state, but

1765
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:43,280
Speaker 1: eventually they're gonna get old enough to go hunt somewhere

1766
01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:47,200
Speaker 1: else as a non resident, and the hunting practices are

1767
01:38:47,240 --> 01:38:50,479
Speaker 1: going to differ from what they are where you live.

1768
01:38:51,439 --> 01:38:55,280
Speaker 1: And you can't sort of raise sort of ethical absolutists

1769
01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:58,000
Speaker 1: who say, well, the way we do it in Montana

1770
01:38:58,160 --> 01:38:59,680
Speaker 1: is the only way, or or the way we do

1771
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 1: it in Virginia is the only way. And you know,

1772
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:05,799
Speaker 1: if you do bear baiting or you know, bait deer

1773
01:39:05,840 --> 01:39:09,200
Speaker 1: in Michigan, that's evil. Um. You know, there's a there's

1774
01:39:09,240 --> 01:39:11,519
Speaker 1: a topic for a whole another podcast. I got involved

1775
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:14,960
Speaker 1: years ago with the bear baiting ballot referendum up in

1776
01:39:14,960 --> 01:39:18,400
Speaker 1: the state of Maine that the h s US was pushing.

1777
01:39:19,200 --> 01:39:22,400
Speaker 1: And you know, baiting is controversial, and there you had

1778
01:39:22,400 --> 01:39:24,680
Speaker 1: a classic case where you had hunters who didn't like

1779
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:27,240
Speaker 1: baiting pointing their fingers at people who baited and said, well,

1780
01:39:27,240 --> 01:39:28,760
Speaker 1: I don't like the way you want, let's ban the

1781
01:39:28,760 --> 01:39:33,479
Speaker 1: way you want and hugged. I struggle with that. I've

1782
01:39:33,479 --> 01:39:35,360
Speaker 1: always struggled with that. I think baiting is the most

1783
01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:39,880
Speaker 1: fascinating conversation within within this, within these kind of you know,

1784
01:39:39,920 --> 01:39:42,439
Speaker 1: I guess you'd call them ethical arguments or arguments within hunting.

1785
01:39:42,560 --> 01:39:44,840
Speaker 1: I think it's the most fascinating because there's science that

1786
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:47,439
Speaker 1: says if you bait for deer, and you know, there's

1787
01:39:47,520 --> 01:39:51,200
Speaker 1: close contact on natural contact between the animals, there's spreads

1788
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:53,800
Speaker 1: of spread of disease. There's also this idea that if

1789
01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:57,000
Speaker 1: you want to be an ethical hunter, had the closest,

1790
01:39:57,040 --> 01:39:59,559
Speaker 1: easiest kill to dispatch the animal, then you would bait

1791
01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:02,880
Speaker 1: for bear. You would bait the bear um. And there's

1792
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:05,840
Speaker 1: this idea that that's not sporting and what what really

1793
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:08,360
Speaker 1: is hunting? And so it kind of gets baiting for

1794
01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:10,960
Speaker 1: it just gets at all of these cultural touchpoints in

1795
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:14,240
Speaker 1: a way that is damn interesting to me. Well, you'd

1796
01:40:14,280 --> 01:40:18,160
Speaker 1: ever figure it out other than your explanation. Well, and

1797
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:21,120
Speaker 1: in context matters, you know, even in ethics, there's this

1798
01:40:21,160 --> 01:40:24,640
Speaker 1: idea of contextual moral reasoning. You know, to be a

1799
01:40:25,160 --> 01:40:28,040
Speaker 1: have an organic garden in the South is a lot

1800
01:40:28,080 --> 01:40:30,639
Speaker 1: different than expecting somebody who lives above the Arctic circle,

1801
01:40:30,720 --> 01:40:33,200
Speaker 1: you know, Native Inuit to be an organic farmer because

1802
01:40:33,439 --> 01:40:36,880
Speaker 1: they're dealing with perma frost, you know. So you know,

1803
01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:41,720
Speaker 1: you have to think contextually. The context in Texas is

1804
01:40:41,720 --> 01:40:43,760
Speaker 1: going to be different than the context in Maine is

1805
01:40:43,840 --> 01:40:46,400
Speaker 1: different than the context and color. Have you thought much

1806
01:40:46,439 --> 01:40:50,240
Speaker 1: about how social media is really contributed or in negative

1807
01:40:50,320 --> 01:40:54,400
Speaker 1: or positive ways to yea topic? Yeah, social media is

1808
01:40:54,439 --> 01:40:58,320
Speaker 1: probably one of the worst things to happen to civilization ever.

1809
01:40:58,720 --> 01:41:04,000
Speaker 1: There you I love it. Quote me on that it

1810
01:41:04,120 --> 01:41:08,599
Speaker 1: favors soundbites and you know, the Twitter one characters sort

1811
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:12,320
Speaker 1: of an instant responses where people just they don't give

1812
01:41:12,320 --> 01:41:14,200
Speaker 1: it any thought at all, but they just snap with

1813
01:41:14,240 --> 01:41:17,719
Speaker 1: the knee jerk reaction, and a lot of that's really bad.

1814
01:41:18,760 --> 01:41:21,880
Speaker 1: Um gone is the sort of the long form essay.

1815
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:24,479
Speaker 1: You know, I mentioned those turn of the century writers.

1816
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:27,000
Speaker 1: You know, they would polish their writing for a week

1817
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:30,760
Speaker 1: before they submitted it. You know, even a podcast is

1818
01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:36,000
Speaker 1: better than Instagram type posts. I don't know. On the

1819
01:41:36,040 --> 01:41:43,280
Speaker 1: other hand, there is a type of consciousness raising. You know.

1820
01:41:43,760 --> 01:41:45,720
Speaker 1: One of the things that happened with hunting about twenty

1821
01:41:45,800 --> 01:41:47,600
Speaker 1: years ago, there was this idea just hide it, you know,

1822
01:41:47,680 --> 01:41:50,559
Speaker 1: don't go into the diner with your camo, don't strap

1823
01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:52,880
Speaker 1: the deer to the roof of your car. And I

1824
01:41:52,880 --> 01:41:56,560
Speaker 1: don't think there's anything to be gained by driving hunting underground,

1825
01:41:56,600 --> 01:42:00,880
Speaker 1: as if you're embarrassed by it. I think hunters need

1826
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:04,639
Speaker 1: to just be themselves out in public and and and

1827
01:42:04,640 --> 01:42:08,680
Speaker 1: and in the public benefits. I think from an awareness

1828
01:42:08,680 --> 01:42:12,000
Speaker 1: of how many damn people hunt, and and and that

1829
01:42:12,200 --> 01:42:15,080
Speaker 1: and not evil people. They're not bad people. They're your neighbors,

1830
01:42:15,080 --> 01:42:18,519
Speaker 1: they're your friends. That's so yeah, I feel like that

1831
01:42:18,520 --> 01:42:21,920
Speaker 1: that idea came from my father's generation, or maybe prior

1832
01:42:21,960 --> 01:42:23,840
Speaker 1: to that. I don't know that this idea that if

1833
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:26,320
Speaker 1: we just don't highlight what's going on, no one will

1834
01:42:26,439 --> 01:42:29,840
Speaker 1: have anything to attack, Like, wow, that's a super that's

1835
01:42:29,840 --> 01:42:33,160
Speaker 1: a reductive way to move through the world. That's really hard.

1836
01:42:33,400 --> 01:42:36,559
Speaker 1: And I think social media has forced us into these

1837
01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:39,400
Speaker 1: conversations a lot of ways. We gotta have them now

1838
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:41,639
Speaker 1: because a lot of people are there's you know, eleven

1839
01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:44,240
Speaker 1: million hunters and a good portion of them or sharing

1840
01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:46,960
Speaker 1: what they do online. Um. And it gives us a

1841
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:50,200
Speaker 1: lot to criticize, a lot to celebrate, and and I

1842
01:42:50,240 --> 01:42:53,559
Speaker 1: think has kind of have shifted the way hunters moved

1843
01:42:53,560 --> 01:42:56,000
Speaker 1: through the activity of of going out to kill something.

1844
01:42:56,040 --> 01:42:58,360
Speaker 1: You know, there's different little touch points that you gotta

1845
01:42:58,400 --> 01:42:59,920
Speaker 1: take a photo at the end, you gotta do this.

1846
01:43:00,000 --> 01:43:02,479
Speaker 1: If you gotta do that, it's kind of change the

1847
01:43:02,560 --> 01:43:05,120
Speaker 1: way that we do it, um in a lot of ways.

1848
01:43:05,160 --> 01:43:07,360
Speaker 1: So I like that, you like that you said that

1849
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:10,200
Speaker 1: it gets the worst thing to ever have because I'm

1850
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:16,960
Speaker 1: I can't couldn't agree with that anymore. Maybe they'll improve,

1851
01:43:17,000 --> 01:43:20,000
Speaker 1: who knows, we'll figure we'll get better at it. I

1852
01:43:20,040 --> 01:43:22,599
Speaker 1: mean we're probably be I think as hunters. At least

1853
01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:24,880
Speaker 1: we're better at it now that we were, and it's

1854
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:27,640
Speaker 1: it's infancy, which we hadn't been around very long. I

1855
01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:30,559
Speaker 1: was in college when I first heard the word twitter, um,

1856
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:34,000
Speaker 1: and we laughed a lot about it, so we got

1857
01:43:34,000 --> 01:43:37,479
Speaker 1: some time to go, um. Well, well, Jim, thanks so

1858
01:43:37,560 --> 01:43:40,759
Speaker 1: much for for checking in with us and taking the time.

1859
01:43:41,320 --> 01:43:43,920
Speaker 1: I I am not sure you know what I'll say this.

1860
01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:46,880
Speaker 1: I would say I'm not sure how how interested people

1861
01:43:46,920 --> 01:43:48,400
Speaker 1: are in ethics, but I will tell you this. I've

1862
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:52,960
Speaker 1: done some speaking engagements and some live events where we

1863
01:43:53,000 --> 01:43:56,360
Speaker 1: talked about ethics and hunting and have very similar conversations

1864
01:43:56,360 --> 01:44:00,240
Speaker 1: to these, and I've found all the audience is to

1865
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:04,360
Speaker 1: be engaged, often stay way longer than the allotted time,

1866
01:44:04,880 --> 01:44:07,920
Speaker 1: and people are just interested in this and um even

1867
01:44:07,960 --> 01:44:11,280
Speaker 1: excited by it, understanding that it will be uh, sometimes

1868
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:14,280
Speaker 1: strenuous conversation. Sometimes we will not, there will be no answer.

1869
01:44:14,720 --> 01:44:19,759
Speaker 1: Sometimes it will be deeply personal um, but it's a conversation.

1870
01:44:19,760 --> 01:44:21,479
Speaker 1: I've been really heartened that people are willing to have

1871
01:44:21,560 --> 01:44:24,599
Speaker 1: and excited to have, so I appreciate you taking part

1872
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:28,160
Speaker 1: in sure. Thanks, it was fun, all right, Thank you, Jim.

1873
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:36,160
Speaker 1: All right, thank then, I guess that's it. That's all.

1874
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:40,320
Speaker 1: Episode ninety seven is done. Thank you to Dr Tintillo.

1875
01:44:40,439 --> 01:44:43,320
Speaker 1: Thank you too, Anthony Locator editor in chief. Thanks to

1876
01:44:43,320 --> 01:44:47,320
Speaker 1: our community manager. His name is Joe Fernando. Um. The

1877
01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:49,280
Speaker 1: only thing I'll say is, don't forget to go to

1878
01:44:49,479 --> 01:44:53,080
Speaker 1: first like dot com slash tar hunt sweep steaks first,

1879
01:44:53,160 --> 01:44:56,559
Speaker 1: like dot com slash t A h R h U

1880
01:44:56,680 --> 01:45:00,080
Speaker 1: n T sweep steaks to enter to go to New

1881
01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:04,479
Speaker 1: Zealand with me. Phil is not allowed to go? Why mate,

1882
01:45:06,200 --> 01:45:11,600
Speaker 1: It's it's complicated. Okay, Well I'm disappointed. Well it was

1883
01:45:11,640 --> 01:45:14,400
Speaker 1: my idea to make the best here at th HC

1884
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:19,240
Speaker 1: and now you're not even I'm not even gonna Phil's hurt.

1885
01:45:19,280 --> 01:45:21,960
Speaker 1: He'll get over it. We're gonna find some of some

1886
01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:25,880
Speaker 1: fun things to do with Phil to Phil about Phil

1887
01:45:26,800 --> 01:45:30,799
Speaker 1: to me. Can't wait. It's gonna be great. I promise

1888
01:45:30,880 --> 01:45:33,479
Speaker 1: you're gonna love it. Um next week, another great show

1889
01:45:33,520 --> 01:45:35,559
Speaker 1: coming at you. We I've been in churning on lab

1890
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:37,559
Speaker 1: grown meat for a while, so you get the Metator

1891
01:45:37,600 --> 01:45:39,639
Speaker 1: dot com. You can read an article that I wrote

1892
01:45:39,840 --> 01:45:42,519
Speaker 1: about meat grown in a Petri dish it's crazy, it's

1893
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:47,439
Speaker 1: sci fi, and it's coming for us. So go read

1894
01:45:47,560 --> 01:45:50,280
Speaker 1: the meat eater dot com. There's a story there I

1895
01:45:50,320 --> 01:45:52,800
Speaker 1: wrote about lap grown meat. Go over there and read it.

1896
01:45:52,840 --> 01:45:54,720
Speaker 1: That's your homework for next week because we're gonna talk

1897
01:45:54,760 --> 01:45:56,800
Speaker 1: about it. It's gonna be a good time here at

1898
01:45:56,880 --> 01:46:01,000
Speaker 1: th HC. We'll see you then, Bye long. Because I

1899
01:46:01,080 --> 01:46:07,800
Speaker 1: can't go a week without doing run, oh without absolute run,

1900
01:46:09,360 --> 01:46:31,040
Speaker 1: drinking out and run absolutely wrong, drinking in heaven, don't

1901
01:46:31,080 --> 01:46:33,880
Speaker 1: sit in at the Boston would start to grow root.

1902
01:46:34,280 --> 01:46:37,240
Speaker 1: I'm feeling like I can't hold on out Barros shoes

1903
01:46:37,360 --> 01:46:40,280
Speaker 1: all down one