WEBVTT - The First GOP Debate vs. The Guy Who Wasn’t There 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:05.560 Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.720 social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:14.720 Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course, the first GOP debate versus 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.239 the Guy who wasn't there. I've said it before and 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.480 I'll say it again. Anytime I see a Republican presidential 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:25.680 candidate other than Donald Trump on television, I'm reminded that 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:29.280 they and their party look like they're in a hostage video. 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:31.840 They are all trapped by Trump, and none of them 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:35.479 have convinced me that they can escape his. Republican Challengers 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:39.080 held their first national debate recently, offering an array of 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.960 paul's trying to make a case for themselves and the 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:46.920 GOP's future. The group included Ron DeSantis, Nikki Hailey, Mike Pence, 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:51.640 Chris Christy, Tim Scott, Asia Hutchinson, Doug Burgham, and the 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:57.240 one and only Vivek Ramaswami. Ramaswami offered the most transparent approach, 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.800 contending with Trump. Recast yourself as a chat ter, grinning 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:05.680 alternate version of Donald Trump light. The others followed different 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:10.280 paths to making cases for themselves. Meanwhile, Trump counterprogrammed he 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.280 sat down with former Fox News propagandist and conspiracy theorist 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:18.360 Tucker Carlson to chat about election fraud and, among other things, 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.600 his unfounded belief that China controls the Panama Canal. The 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.920 interview aired on social media and was timed to distract 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.680 voters from the Republican debate, which Trump chose not to attend. 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.520 Joining me to make sense of this Carnival is Susan 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.960 del Percio, a Republican political strategist and an advisor to 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.840 a variety of political and corporate campaigns. She also once 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:45.720 worked in former New York Mayor Rudi Giuliani's administration. Susan 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.560 is savvy and insightful and always a treat to talk to. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.160 Hey, Susan hate tim It's great to be with you today. 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:55.920 It's really great to be with you. So let's do 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.480 the big picture. What's your big takeaway from the first 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:00.400 Republican debate? 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:04.600 My first big takeaway is, boy, the Republicans blew it. 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:11.160 They had an opportunity to present a platform of ideas, 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:14.760 a vision for the country where they want to take it, 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:19.160 which would obviously stand and start contrast to Donald Trump 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.200 because he is only about Donald Trump. As we know 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:26.600 and is just doing grievance. But all eight of these candidates, 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.399 I was waiting for them to be whatever they are, 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.200 not trying to deal with the man not in the room. 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.519 And that was so disappointing because there are a lot 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.040 of Republicans out there that want to move on from Trump, 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:42.799 even those who voted for Trump twice want to move 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.120 on from Trump. And I just I feel like the 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.239 ideas and even the way it was moderated just did 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:50.360 not bring that forward. 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.040 So you know, if you could have waived your magic 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.520 wand across the event, what would you have done differently? 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.760 Then I probably would have said it up first of all, 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:05.079 in issue format in a pretty tight way, and also 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:07.280 not let the candidates get too out of control, if 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.240 you will, because they were all over the place, and 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.040 I know we're going to talk about the Ramasami, but 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.440 he was like a fly that just gets swattered around. 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.800 I mean, everyone was taking their shot at of Nikki Hally, 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.640 Chris Chrissy. He just buzzed around, and really they should 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:25.440 have stopped. 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.919 It, especially because I mean, we'll get into him later, 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.200 but he just backed actually, I think in the attention 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:32.280 even while he was getting squatted. 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:35.040 At exactly other than him. 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.360 You know who stood out to you and why among 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.760 the whole collection of people up on that stage. 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.920 I would say the two standouts, the three standouts, two 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.560 for good, one not good for me were on the 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.440 positive side. Nikki Halley, she at least really tried to 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:58.120 talk about foreign policy and you know her credentials. And 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.440 Mike Pence. I didn't agree with some of what he said, 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.600 but he was pretty aggressive in getting his comments out there. 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.480 He's also the most experienced in this form of debate. 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:14.080 The person who was so disappointing to me was Senator 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:18.720 Tim Scott from South Carolina. A lot of people recognize 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.600 that Ron DeSantis, the governor from Florida, is on his 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.240 way out. He's been, in my opinion, he's done, and 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:28.880 they're giving Tim Scott another look. They want to give 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:31.440 someone a look and see what they have, and all 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.039 eyes have been on Tim Scott. This was his time 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:36.240 to shine. 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.559 Particularly the Republican establishment. I think you saw this sort 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:45.000 of movement after Desantists stumbled so badly out of the gates. 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.640 People were attuned to that in the GOP. I think 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:52.520 both among powerbrokers in the party and big money donors. 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:55.159 And then there was this movement towards Tim Scott, and 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:57.320 we'll talk more about him in a minute, but I 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.880 agree with you he was essentially on her from on 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.000 that stage, and I don't think that's how he needed 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:08.120 to position himself during that debate exactly. Let's focus on 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.039 Nicki Haley for a minute only because I found her 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.599 to be the most substantive of the contenders up there, 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:17.880 even if Pole suggests she's least likely to get the nomination. 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.560 And you know, I like how we got into this 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.479 of you expressing your disappointment. You're a Republican. You want 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:27.400 it to be a party of ideas. You want it 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.720 to be a party of policy, party of solution. I 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.040 think in an ideal world democrats want that for the 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.400 Democratic Party too. That they may get to there in 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:39.839 different ways, but people want politicians to be serious actors 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:41.480 and not just buffoons. 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.000 But they also want I'm sorry to interrupt, but this 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:48.680 was in particularly important because of Donald Trump. These Republicans 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.919 seem to be a stark difference from Donald Trump, not 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.240 from the Democrats. The Democrats have never had to deal 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.920 with what the Republicans are dealing with, so. 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.440 Why can't Nicki Haley break out. You know, She's interesting 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:03.919 to me in the way that Chris Christie is, but 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.599 interesting solely because both of them I think, sold a 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.800 little bit of their soul to join the Trump administration 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.960 after Trump emerged in twenty sixteen as the obvious front runner. 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.720 Hailey was the UN ambassador, Christy was an advisor. They 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.760 both had been vocal about being critical of him prior 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.760 to Trump getting out in front of twenty sixteen, and 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.440 now they're both pretty vocal about trying to carve out 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.159 some sort of a position apart from him. But she 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.719 really hasn't broken out with Republican voters. And what do 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:36.560 you attribute that to? 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.680 A few things? One is, in politics, there is is, 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.920 and was is. And Ron DeSantis is the governor. He 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:49.000 wasn't was the governor. And so it's very hard to 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.200 do things and get the press attention because you're not 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.400 an elective office. All you can do is try and 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:59.440 get earned media. That's the first thing in general. But 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.360 for Nick Haley specifically, and it applies to a couple 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.800 of others. For folks who came out early in this primary, 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.880 you had to come out swinging against Trump. I mean, 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.000 one of the things that all of these candidates wasted 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.800 was looking at Trump and taking them on in January, 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.680 February up to March actually probably up to that first indictment, 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.560 that's when he was the weakest. Ron DeSantis was pretty 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:31.160 strong at that point too, coming out of an election 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.480 before he did some really bad legislative stuff. But Nikki Haley, 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.800 you know, her line was, I don't kick sideways, so 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.400 that's stuck with me. But I don't know what else 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.360 she's done now apparently she had her. 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:46.600 For a second. Do you think voters tune in to 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.520 that exact phenomenon you just identified that a candidate who 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.679 isn't currently holding an office is less attractive than one who. 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.960 Is, only because they don't have the press corps of 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.440 their home state. For example, people aren't writing about you 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.720 can't see what legislation they're doing. It's not that the 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:10.080 people actually care so much, it's what comes with being 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:11.800 a current office holder. 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.080 The power of the incumbency exactly. 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.920 And I think with Nikki Haley, she could have come out, 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:19.920 she could have gone after Trump. She has a really 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.360 good line in the debate is we have to be 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.960 honest with the American people, and she should have been 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:30.160 using that to go after Donald Trump the way she 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.720 did on debate night. By the way, that debate was 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:39.120 the single largest fundraising night for Governor Halley, so there. 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.760 Are people paying attention. Do you think she has a 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:43.400 chance to break out or do you think this is 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.400 just a sideshow given how far Trump is ahead in 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:48.280 the polls right now. 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.320 I think there's always a chance to break out, But 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.880 it's what she does. You need a combination for someone 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.840 to beat Trump. You need them to look good and 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.360 be a strong, viable alternative. And even if you have that, 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.120 that's not going to help you a lot in the polls. 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.160 But what you really need is to have Chris Christy 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.320 keep banging away at Donald Trump, because when you start 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:13.559 looking at the poll numbers and those numbers spread Joe 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.319 Biden to Donald Trump go from it. Now they're pretty 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.160 close to three four points, but what happens if they 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.840 go to five, six, seven, eight points, then there's a 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:28.079 hard electability fact there that people can't ignore. 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:34.800 You mentioned that DeSantis stumbled because of poor legislative judgment, 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.600 but one of the things I feel that he stumbled 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.000 around on was he tried to nationalize what had worked 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.800 for him in Florida, which was to pursue this quote 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:51.360 unquote woke agenda on education, on public health, on any 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.880 number of issues where it was easy for him to 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:55.880 sell that relatively easy for him to sell that to 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.360 Florida voters because he was doing it in very programmatic 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.000 public settings that were very controlled. He wasn't giving himself 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.920 access to the press. He had the state legislature behind him, 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.480 He was in tune with the mood in Florida. But 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:14.080 none of that necessarily transports into a national campaign. And 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:17.640 I think to me, once he began campaigning nationally, it 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.199 was like the Emperor has no clothes. 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.560 Yeah, And usually you use the chance to have a 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.680 legislative agenda passed for what would help you in a 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.120 general election you want to become That's how I govern 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:35.760 and use the rhetoric during the primary, and he just 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.120 blew it. I'll tell you. Everyone makes a big deal 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.400 about how many points DeSantis won by. He won by nineteen. 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.800 Huge win, absolutely huge. But it's not that he got 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:48.079 so many more Republican votes. It's at nine hundred thousand 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.959 fewer Democrats showed up to vote on that line, and 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.520 that was what made the difference. Now I'm not saying 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:57.360 he wouldn't have won. But the other thing is I 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.679 saw an Emerson College poll in February March with Florida 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:07.880 voters independent women gave him a disapproval of sixty one percent. 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.640 That's sky high, especially coming after a win. And that's 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:16.080 because one of the reasons is he moved from saying oh, 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:20.720 I passed a fifteen week abortion ban, which could fall 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:25.160 in line with the conservative Republicans, to an extremist position 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:29.000 of a six week abortion ban, which is basically banning 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.240 abortion in his state. Oh and by the way, he 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.120 did make an exception for rape and incests, but only 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.800 if you file the police report. Who does that. 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.160 Hold rape and incest exception to your draconian view of 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:46.040 women's access to reproductive health. I think Pence is the 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.120 only other person sort of charting that out on abortion 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:51.320 among the current Republican I think most of the other 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.440 Republicans are at fifteen weeks, but the Santis and Pencer, 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.800 I think at this very extreme edge of that policy debate. 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.720 He's also just not a great public speaker. He's a 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.560 tree stump. I think he's odd with people. He doesn't 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.439 make eye contact, he's not a buncular I don't think 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.720 he enjoys being with other people too much. 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.480 Yeah, that's what happens if when you're governing, you put 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.400 yourself in a bubble and you only speak to Fox News. 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:17.200 You have a press conference and you only let one 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:21.440 media outlet in. You don't speak to the reporters in Tallahassee, 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.840 where the capital is for legislative needs. He also just 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.360 ticked off a lot of people, and you didn't hear 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.040 the glowing endorsements that you typically do. People were off 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.280 the bat, even if they were off the record going 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.800 after him. But even in the debate, did you notice 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.280 he gave his answer. He kind of had a scowl 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:42.800 most of the time, but when he was done with 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:45.120 his answer, you could see his teeth. I mean he 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:50.000 was smiling like Okay, oh I'm done. Huh pause, smile. 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.200 Yeah. I just kept looking at him and thinking tree stump, 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.320 you know, the entire time he was up there. I 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.559 think Pence is a more outgoing person than DeSantis. I 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.920 think Penn enjoys talking to other people. But I also 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.200 think he exists in a charisma free zone, which is 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.880 an obvious factor dealing with Donald Trump. Trump has a 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.559 million flaws. I think he's a dangerous figure on our 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:19.080 public landscape. But for the people who adhere to his 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.360 vision and support him, he's got authentic charisma and he's 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.200 had it. He had it in television, charisma for a 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.959 certain kind of thing, and Pence lacks that. Where do 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:31.160 you see Pence breaking out of the pack after watching 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:32.160 these debates? 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.720 Well, first, that's why I think Trump picked Mike Pence 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.240 because he was never going to be someone who is 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.520 going to upstage him in any shape or form, not 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.120 just with his words, but like you said, with the charisma. 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.319 People weren't going to talk about Mike Pence with excitement. 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:54.120 He's gradually going after Donald Trump. Very little, not enough. 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.240 He did a great job of setting up the question, 0:13:57.600 --> 0:13:59.840 well who here doesn't think I did the right thing 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.120 on January sixth, I mean, he basically threw it out there. 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:09.319 But then something I just can't forget, and it's been 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.600 with me and I think it's one of the legacies 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.800 of trump Ism within the party. When it comes to 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:20.440 being elected and serving in government, I can't use governance 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.000 because the Republicans elective office have shown no interest in 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:28.280 governance except for very, very few so Nikki Halen had 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.960 given her answer on abortion, and she said, we have 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.720 to agree on this, and so forth she went through 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.320 her steps and she said, because we have to get 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.080 a consensus, there's no way you're going to get sixty 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:45.320 senators to ban abortion, and Mike Pence fire back saying 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:53.359 consensus is the opposite of leadership. That is a mindset. 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:58.400 That is a Donald Trump mindset. I will lead, I 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.280 will lead you, I will lead you into so we 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.920 fall off the cliff because he won't make the term 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.360 because he wants to look like a leader. And it 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.920 didn't get a lot of pick up in the media coverage, 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:11.960 but it's something that's stuck with me because if that's 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.560 where we are, if that's where the Republican Party is, 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:16.800 they're not going to be governing for a very very 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:17.360 long time. 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.880 And that was clearly one thing I thought about that 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.760 line was it was rehearsed before the debates. They gave 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:27.400 him that line, They maybe gave him some thoughts about 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.240 when he should deploy it, and the fact that he 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.720 chose to deploy it then after having practiced in debate 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.800 prep with it was very telling to me too. Yeah, 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:38.920 especially because you know his former boss tried to have 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.480 him murdered, so you would think that he'd be a 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.440 little more strident in criticizing some of the decisions Donald 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:45.280 Trump makes. 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.200 And he has the record. Well that's the thing. Just 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:50.520 take on Donald Trump. You're never going to get those 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.480 Trump people, So just put him away, don't even try 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:59.040 and use your record and go forward because otherwise Pence 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.240 is nothing there because he has nothing to do and. 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.680 To reach out to that other seventy percent of Republicans 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:09.440 who want something other than Donald Trump. M that Ramaswami. 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:11.360 You know, I just sort of see him as a 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:17.520 tireless cartoon figure who's basking in the attention presidential candidates 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.800 get when they have no experience, but by virtue of 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:25.760 quirks in our system and their own odd magnetism or 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.400 points of view, they get a moment in the sun 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.200 that happens with both parties. What do you make of 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.960 him and the fact that they gave him a pole 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.640 position essentially almost directly at center stage during the debate, 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:39.160 Hi wil. 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.200 Tim, we're both old enough to remember that. In twenty twelve, 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:46.200 Michelle Bachman won the Iowas straw pol when she was 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.600 running in twenty eleven. I remember when Ben Carson was 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.640 at the head of the polls back in twenty fifteen. 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:58.480 These things happen. If Ramaswami makes it to the third debate, 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.880 he will probably be the very end of the stage. 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.560 This is his time in the sun. He's entertaining for 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.600 no other reason. I think people talk about him because 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:13.359 he was entertaining his debate prep was apparently playing tennis shirtless. 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.399 I don't understand how anyone could take him seriously. He 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.920 is just a cartoon figure to me. 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.080 I think he's trying out to be Trump's VP. I 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:24.840 feel like that's his agenda. 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.560 Which we just discussed that. One of the reasons why 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:30.680 Penn Scott it was because he had no personality and 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.200 the last thing Donald Trump wants is someone who could 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:36.360 out charisma him. 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.760 Yeah, this guy clearly does not understand who Donald Trump is. 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.359 He actually wants tree stumps in the White House. He 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:47.080 doesn't want people who've got magnetism at all. Lastly, Chris Christy, 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.480 I get you know, he played the role of flamethrower. 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.560 I have been happy to see him be willing to 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.800 speak his mind about Trump and trump Ism, but he 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.320 hasn't really carved out much on a policy path beyond 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.879 being the most open Trump critic. I guess during the 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.879 campaign season thus far, what do you think of his 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.080 performance on the debate stage and his possibilities. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.040 I think you laid it out perfectly, and with Chris Christie. 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.679 He can't be the prosecutor going after Donald Trump without 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.240 Donald Trump there, so he made the lines he had to. 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.800 He did play some good defense at points, like when 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:29.080 ran Assami was going after him. I just think that 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:31.479 there's no way the Republicans are going to give him 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.600 the nomination. He could come in though in New Hampshire 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.879 he could come in second or third. It wouldn't surprise me, 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.119 mostly because in New Hampshire they have an open primary 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:46.639 where Republicans vote in the Republican primary, but independents can 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.680 vote in the Democrat or Republican primary. And since there's 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:54.320 no real Democratic party in New Hampshire, because they're changing 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.000 when the elections are being held, you may see a 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.879 flood of independence, which is about thirty eight in the state, 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.879 come into that and that could help Christy, but I 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:05.760 don't think it gets into where he needs to go. 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:09.560 I'm not going to dwell on Hutchinson and Bergham. I'm 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.159 sorry our show's short and no one really seems to 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.040 care enough about them, But I think we've zeroed in 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:16.760 on the people who may or may not mount a 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:20.280 challenge to Trump. I want to ask you to focus 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:22.959 on that moment during the debate when all of the 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:27.520 candidates were asked if they would support the indicted former 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:31.200 president if he was the Republican nominee. Everyone raised their hands, 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.800 but Hutchinson, bless his law abiding soul, Chris Christy did 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.480 a weird like half hand raised, and DeSantis actually looked 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.639 around to see what everyone else was doing before he 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.440 raised his hand, which I just thought was a pathetic 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.280 lack of courage, especially given how he's been trying to 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.600 carve out this place as the guy who's strong and wilful. 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.560 But what did that moment tell you about what you 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:56.119 were seeing on the debate stage. 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.680 I couldn't vote for any of those candidates, huh, by 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:01.920 the way him. I want to be able to vote 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.160 for a Republican I just haven't been able to because 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:09.600 I haven't found any that are credible and running serious 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.399 campaigns and doing serious things. They all are following Trump 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:17.160 and if you follow Trump. In my world, I consider 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:18.679 that disqualifying. 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.600 I admire you, Susan, in this crazy age we're in 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:27.320 because the primary voter in the Republican Party writ large 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:32.160 doesn't care if Donald Trump is burning the Constitution or 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:37.840 targeting the vulnerable. They just wanted to be present again regardless. Obviously, 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.800 there's I think a majority of other Americans who think 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.040 differently about it. But my thesis of the case has 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.800 been that this works for him in the primary. It's 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:49.240 going to be tested sorely in the national election, and 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.159 the Republicans are and that's why I keep calling it 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.920 a hostage video, because they're not taking the steps they 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.679 need to break out of his grip, and they're going 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:00.840 to pay a price, I think at the netal level 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.200 if the Democrats are smart about how they campaign. 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.800 Great point on that note. 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:08.760 Let's take a break, and then I want to come 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:12.359 back and talk with you about Donald Trump's vaudeville act. 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:20.399 With Tucker Carlson on Debate Night, We're back with the 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:24.879 wonderful Susan del Percio, a Republican strategist and always a 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.320 treat to talk to. We've been talking about the first 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.679 Republican debate, Susan, I now want to turn to the 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:35.520 Trump Carlson gabfest that was meant to bigfoot the Republican debate. 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:38.720 But just to get us off theme for one second, 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:41.560 I want to ask you about Rudy Giuliani, who's now 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.840 been indicted along with Trump, was a mastermind of the 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:48.280 dangerous and Bonker's effort to steal the twenty twenty election 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.920 for Trump. As someone who once worked closely with America's 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.879 mayor saw him become a fixture in the American imagination 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:58.400 after nine to eleven. What do you make of what's 0:21:58.440 --> 0:21:59.200 happened to him? 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.639 Well, I've consistently just felt like, what a shame, what 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:08.080 a downfall. He has changed so much, I can't describe it. 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.919 It's every aspect of him. It's not just that he 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:16.120 defended Trump, it's how he defended Trump. It's the nastiness. 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:19.360 He now goes around with just a mean scowl all 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:22.760 the time. He's stuck in Trump World. And I've got 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:25.119 to tell you, I know people disagreed with Rudy Giuliani 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.879 when he was mayor, but most people I know this 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:31.760 because he got elected with sixty percent of the vote reelected. 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.840 They thought he was doing a good job and making 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:39.159 the city manageable. He did clean up New York City, 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:42.639 and on nine to eleven, he was there as a 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:47.600 true leader should be. And it was a result, I believe, 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:51.119 of Trump giving him a little hat on the back 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:54.680