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Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and

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Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm

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Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course, the first GOP debate versus

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Speaker 1: the Guy who wasn't there. I've said it before and

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Speaker 1: I'll say it again. Anytime I see a Republican presidential

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Speaker 1: candidate other than Donald Trump on television, I'm reminded that

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Speaker 1: they and their party look like they're in a hostage video.

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Speaker 1: They are all trapped by Trump, and none of them

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Speaker 1: have convinced me that they can escape his. Republican Challengers

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Speaker 1: held their first national debate recently, offering an array of

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Speaker 1: paul's trying to make a case for themselves and the

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Speaker 1: GOP's future. The group included Ron DeSantis, Nikki Hailey, Mike Pence,

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Speaker 1: Chris Christy, Tim Scott, Asia Hutchinson, Doug Burgham, and the

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Speaker 1: one and only Vivek Ramaswami. Ramaswami offered the most transparent approach,

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Speaker 1: contending with Trump. Recast yourself as a chat ter, grinning

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Speaker 1: alternate version of Donald Trump light. The others followed different

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Speaker 1: paths to making cases for themselves. Meanwhile, Trump counterprogrammed he

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Speaker 1: sat down with former Fox News propagandist and conspiracy theorist

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Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson to chat about election fraud and, among other things,

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Speaker 1: his unfounded belief that China controls the Panama Canal. The

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Speaker 1: interview aired on social media and was timed to distract

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Speaker 1: voters from the Republican debate, which Trump chose not to attend.

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Speaker 1: Joining me to make sense of this Carnival is Susan

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Speaker 1: del Percio, a Republican political strategist and an advisor to

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Speaker 1: a variety of political and corporate campaigns. She also once

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Speaker 1: worked in former New York Mayor Rudi Giuliani's administration. Susan

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Speaker 1: is savvy and insightful and always a treat to talk to.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Susan hate tim It's great to be with you today.

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Speaker 1: It's really great to be with you. So let's do

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Speaker 1: the big picture. What's your big takeaway from the first

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Speaker 1: Republican debate?

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Speaker 2: My first big takeaway is, boy, the Republicans blew it.

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Speaker 2: They had an opportunity to present a platform of ideas,

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Speaker 2: a vision for the country where they want to take it,

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Speaker 2: which would obviously stand and start contrast to Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: because he is only about Donald Trump. As we know

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Speaker 2: and is just doing grievance. But all eight of these candidates,

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Speaker 2: I was waiting for them to be whatever they are,

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Speaker 2: not trying to deal with the man not in the room.

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Speaker 2: And that was so disappointing because there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of Republicans out there that want to move on from Trump,

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Speaker 2: even those who voted for Trump twice want to move

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Speaker 2: on from Trump. And I just I feel like the

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Speaker 2: ideas and even the way it was moderated just did

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Speaker 2: not bring that forward.

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Speaker 1: So you know, if you could have waived your magic

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Speaker 1: wand across the event, what would you have done differently?

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Speaker 2: Then I probably would have said it up first of all,

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Speaker 2: in issue format in a pretty tight way, and also

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Speaker 2: not let the candidates get too out of control, if

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Speaker 2: you will, because they were all over the place, and

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Speaker 2: I know we're going to talk about the Ramasami, but

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Speaker 2: he was like a fly that just gets swattered around.

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Speaker 2: I mean, everyone was taking their shot at of Nikki Hally,

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Speaker 2: Chris Chrissy. He just buzzed around, and really they should

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Speaker 2: have stopped.

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Speaker 1: It, especially because I mean, we'll get into him later,

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Speaker 1: but he just backed actually, I think in the attention

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Speaker 1: even while he was getting squatted.

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Speaker 2: At exactly other than him.

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Speaker 1: You know who stood out to you and why among

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Speaker 1: the whole collection of people up on that stage.

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Speaker 2: I would say the two standouts, the three standouts, two

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Speaker 2: for good, one not good for me were on the

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Speaker 2: positive side. Nikki Halley, she at least really tried to

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Speaker 2: talk about foreign policy and you know her credentials. And

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Speaker 2: Mike Pence. I didn't agree with some of what he said,

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Speaker 2: but he was pretty aggressive in getting his comments out there.

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Speaker 2: He's also the most experienced in this form of debate.

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Speaker 2: The person who was so disappointing to me was Senator

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Speaker 2: Tim Scott from South Carolina. A lot of people recognize

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Speaker 2: that Ron DeSantis, the governor from Florida, is on his

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Speaker 2: way out. He's been, in my opinion, he's done, and

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Speaker 2: they're giving Tim Scott another look. They want to give

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Speaker 2: someone a look and see what they have, and all

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Speaker 2: eyes have been on Tim Scott. This was his time

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Speaker 2: to shine.

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Speaker 1: Particularly the Republican establishment. I think you saw this sort

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Speaker 1: of movement after Desantists stumbled so badly out of the gates.

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Speaker 1: People were attuned to that in the GOP. I think

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Speaker 1: both among powerbrokers in the party and big money donors.

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Speaker 1: And then there was this movement towards Tim Scott, and

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Speaker 1: we'll talk more about him in a minute, but I

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Speaker 1: agree with you he was essentially on her from on

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Speaker 1: that stage, and I don't think that's how he needed

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Speaker 1: to position himself during that debate exactly. Let's focus on

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Speaker 1: Nicki Haley for a minute only because I found her

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Speaker 1: to be the most substantive of the contenders up there,

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Speaker 1: even if Pole suggests she's least likely to get the nomination.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I like how we got into this

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Speaker 1: of you expressing your disappointment. You're a Republican. You want

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Speaker 1: it to be a party of ideas. You want it

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Speaker 1: to be a party of policy, party of solution. I

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Speaker 1: think in an ideal world democrats want that for the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party too. That they may get to there in

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Speaker 1: different ways, but people want politicians to be serious actors

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Speaker 1: and not just buffoons.

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Speaker 2: But they also want I'm sorry to interrupt, but this

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Speaker 2: was in particularly important because of Donald Trump. These Republicans

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Speaker 2: seem to be a stark difference from Donald Trump, not

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Speaker 2: from the Democrats. The Democrats have never had to deal

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Speaker 2: with what the Republicans are dealing with, so.

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Speaker 1: Why can't Nicki Haley break out. You know, She's interesting

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Speaker 1: to me in the way that Chris Christie is, but

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Speaker 1: interesting solely because both of them I think, sold a

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Speaker 1: little bit of their soul to join the Trump administration

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Speaker 1: after Trump emerged in twenty sixteen as the obvious front runner.

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Speaker 1: Hailey was the UN ambassador, Christy was an advisor. They

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Speaker 1: both had been vocal about being critical of him prior

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Speaker 1: to Trump getting out in front of twenty sixteen, and

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Speaker 1: now they're both pretty vocal about trying to carve out

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Speaker 1: some sort of a position apart from him. But she

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Speaker 1: really hasn't broken out with Republican voters. And what do

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Speaker 1: you attribute that to?

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Speaker 2: A few things? One is, in politics, there is is,

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Speaker 2: and was is. And Ron DeSantis is the governor. He

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Speaker 2: wasn't was the governor. And so it's very hard to

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Speaker 2: do things and get the press attention because you're not

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Speaker 2: an elective office. All you can do is try and

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Speaker 2: get earned media. That's the first thing in general. But

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Speaker 2: for Nick Haley specifically, and it applies to a couple

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Speaker 2: of others. For folks who came out early in this primary,

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Speaker 2: you had to come out swinging against Trump. I mean,

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Speaker 2: one of the things that all of these candidates wasted

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Speaker 2: was looking at Trump and taking them on in January,

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Speaker 2: February up to March actually probably up to that first indictment,

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Speaker 2: that's when he was the weakest. Ron DeSantis was pretty

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Speaker 2: strong at that point too, coming out of an election

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Speaker 2: before he did some really bad legislative stuff. But Nikki Haley,

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Speaker 2: you know, her line was, I don't kick sideways, so

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Speaker 2: that's stuck with me. But I don't know what else

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Speaker 2: she's done now apparently she had her.

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Speaker 1: For a second. Do you think voters tune in to

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Speaker 1: that exact phenomenon you just identified that a candidate who

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Speaker 1: isn't currently holding an office is less attractive than one who.

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Speaker 2: Is, only because they don't have the press corps of

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Speaker 2: their home state. For example, people aren't writing about you

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Speaker 2: can't see what legislation they're doing. It's not that the

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Speaker 2: people actually care so much, it's what comes with being

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Speaker 2: a current office holder.

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Speaker 1: The power of the incumbency exactly.

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Speaker 2: And I think with Nikki Haley, she could have come out,

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Speaker 2: she could have gone after Trump. She has a really

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Speaker 2: good line in the debate is we have to be

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Speaker 2: honest with the American people, and she should have been

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Speaker 2: using that to go after Donald Trump the way she

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Speaker 2: did on debate night. By the way, that debate was

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Speaker 2: the single largest fundraising night for Governor Halley, so there.

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Speaker 1: Are people paying attention. Do you think she has a

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Speaker 1: chance to break out or do you think this is

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Speaker 1: just a sideshow given how far Trump is ahead in

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Speaker 1: the polls right now.

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Speaker 2: I think there's always a chance to break out, But

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Speaker 2: it's what she does. You need a combination for someone

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Speaker 2: to beat Trump. You need them to look good and

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Speaker 2: be a strong, viable alternative. And even if you have that,

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Speaker 2: that's not going to help you a lot in the polls.

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Speaker 2: But what you really need is to have Chris Christy

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Speaker 2: keep banging away at Donald Trump, because when you start

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Speaker 2: looking at the poll numbers and those numbers spread Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden to Donald Trump go from it. Now they're pretty

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Speaker 2: close to three four points, but what happens if they

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Speaker 2: go to five, six, seven, eight points, then there's a

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Speaker 2: hard electability fact there that people can't ignore.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that DeSantis stumbled because of poor legislative judgment,

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Speaker 1: but one of the things I feel that he stumbled

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Speaker 1: around on was he tried to nationalize what had worked

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Speaker 1: for him in Florida, which was to pursue this quote

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Speaker 1: unquote woke agenda on education, on public health, on any

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Speaker 1: number of issues where it was easy for him to

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Speaker 1: sell that relatively easy for him to sell that to

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Speaker 1: Florida voters because he was doing it in very programmatic

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Speaker 1: public settings that were very controlled. He wasn't giving himself

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Speaker 1: access to the press. He had the state legislature behind him,

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Speaker 1: He was in tune with the mood in Florida. But

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Speaker 1: none of that necessarily transports into a national campaign. And

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Speaker 1: I think to me, once he began campaigning nationally, it

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Speaker 1: was like the Emperor has no clothes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And usually you use the chance to have a

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Speaker 2: legislative agenda passed for what would help you in a

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Speaker 2: general election you want to become That's how I govern

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Speaker 2: and use the rhetoric during the primary, and he just

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Speaker 2: blew it. I'll tell you. Everyone makes a big deal

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Speaker 2: about how many points DeSantis won by. He won by nineteen.

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Speaker 2: Huge win, absolutely huge. But it's not that he got

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Speaker 2: so many more Republican votes. It's at nine hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: fewer Democrats showed up to vote on that line, and

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Speaker 2: that was what made the difference. Now I'm not saying

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Speaker 2: he wouldn't have won. But the other thing is I

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Speaker 2: saw an Emerson College poll in February March with Florida

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Speaker 2: voters independent women gave him a disapproval of sixty one percent.

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Speaker 2: That's sky high, especially coming after a win. And that's

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Speaker 2: because one of the reasons is he moved from saying oh,

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Speaker 2: I passed a fifteen week abortion ban, which could fall

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Speaker 2: in line with the conservative Republicans, to an extremist position

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Speaker 2: of a six week abortion ban, which is basically banning

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Speaker 2: abortion in his state. Oh and by the way, he

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Speaker 2: did make an exception for rape and incests, but only

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Speaker 2: if you file the police report. Who does that.

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Speaker 1: Hold rape and incest exception to your draconian view of

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Speaker 1: women's access to reproductive health. I think Pence is the

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Speaker 1: only other person sort of charting that out on abortion

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Speaker 1: among the current Republican I think most of the other

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Speaker 1: Republicans are at fifteen weeks, but the Santis and Pencer,

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Speaker 1: I think at this very extreme edge of that policy debate.

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Speaker 1: He's also just not a great public speaker. He's a

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Speaker 1: tree stump. I think he's odd with people. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: make eye contact, he's not a buncular I don't think

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Speaker 1: he enjoys being with other people too much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what happens if when you're governing, you put

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Speaker 2: yourself in a bubble and you only speak to Fox News.

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Speaker 2: You have a press conference and you only let one

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Speaker 2: media outlet in. You don't speak to the reporters in Tallahassee,

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Speaker 2: where the capital is for legislative needs. He also just

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Speaker 2: ticked off a lot of people, and you didn't hear

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Speaker 2: the glowing endorsements that you typically do. People were off

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Speaker 2: the bat, even if they were off the record going

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Speaker 2: after him. But even in the debate, did you notice

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Speaker 2: he gave his answer. He kind of had a scowl

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Speaker 2: most of the time, but when he was done with

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Speaker 2: his answer, you could see his teeth. I mean he

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Speaker 2: was smiling like Okay, oh I'm done. Huh pause, smile.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I just kept looking at him and thinking tree stump,

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Speaker 1: you know, the entire time he was up there. I

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Speaker 1: think Pence is a more outgoing person than DeSantis. I

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Speaker 1: think Penn enjoys talking to other people. But I also

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Speaker 1: think he exists in a charisma free zone, which is

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Speaker 1: an obvious factor dealing with Donald Trump. Trump has a

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Speaker 1: million flaws. I think he's a dangerous figure on our

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Speaker 1: public landscape. But for the people who adhere to his

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Speaker 1: vision and support him, he's got authentic charisma and he's

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Speaker 1: had it. He had it in television, charisma for a

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Speaker 1: certain kind of thing, and Pence lacks that. Where do

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Speaker 1: you see Pence breaking out of the pack after watching

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Speaker 1: these debates?

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Speaker 2: Well, first, that's why I think Trump picked Mike Pence

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Speaker 2: because he was never going to be someone who is

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Speaker 2: going to upstage him in any shape or form, not

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Speaker 2: just with his words, but like you said, with the charisma.

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Speaker 2: People weren't going to talk about Mike Pence with excitement.

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Speaker 2: He's gradually going after Donald Trump. Very little, not enough.

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Speaker 2: He did a great job of setting up the question,

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Speaker 2: well who here doesn't think I did the right thing

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Speaker 2: on January sixth, I mean, he basically threw it out there.

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Speaker 2: But then something I just can't forget, and it's been

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Speaker 2: with me and I think it's one of the legacies

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Speaker 2: of trump Ism within the party. When it comes to

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Speaker 2: being elected and serving in government, I can't use governance

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Speaker 2: because the Republicans elective office have shown no interest in

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Speaker 2: governance except for very, very few so Nikki Halen had

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Speaker 2: given her answer on abortion, and she said, we have

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Speaker 2: to agree on this, and so forth she went through

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Speaker 2: her steps and she said, because we have to get

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Speaker 2: a consensus, there's no way you're going to get sixty

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Speaker 2: senators to ban abortion, and Mike Pence fire back saying

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Speaker 2: consensus is the opposite of leadership. That is a mindset.

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Speaker 2: That is a Donald Trump mindset. I will lead, I

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Speaker 2: will lead you, I will lead you into so we

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Speaker 2: fall off the cliff because he won't make the term

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Speaker 2: because he wants to look like a leader. And it

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Speaker 2: didn't get a lot of pick up in the media coverage,

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Speaker 2: but it's something that's stuck with me because if that's

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Speaker 2: where we are, if that's where the Republican Party is,

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Speaker 2: they're not going to be governing for a very very

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Speaker 2: long time.

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Speaker 1: And that was clearly one thing I thought about that

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Speaker 1: line was it was rehearsed before the debates. They gave

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Speaker 1: him that line, They maybe gave him some thoughts about

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Speaker 1: when he should deploy it, and the fact that he

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Speaker 1: chose to deploy it then after having practiced in debate

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Speaker 1: prep with it was very telling to me too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: especially because you know his former boss tried to have

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Speaker 1: him murdered, so you would think that he'd be a

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Speaker 1: little more strident in criticizing some of the decisions Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump makes.

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Speaker 2: And he has the record. Well that's the thing. Just

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Speaker 2: take on Donald Trump. You're never going to get those

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Speaker 2: Trump people, So just put him away, don't even try

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Speaker 2: and use your record and go forward because otherwise Pence

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Speaker 2: is nothing there because he has nothing to do and.

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Speaker 1: To reach out to that other seventy percent of Republicans

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Speaker 1: who want something other than Donald Trump. M that Ramaswami.

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Speaker 1: You know, I just sort of see him as a

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Speaker 1: tireless cartoon figure who's basking in the attention presidential candidates

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Speaker 1: get when they have no experience, but by virtue of

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Speaker 1: quirks in our system and their own odd magnetism or

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Speaker 1: points of view, they get a moment in the sun

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Speaker 1: that happens with both parties. What do you make of

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Speaker 1: him and the fact that they gave him a pole

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Speaker 1: position essentially almost directly at center stage during the debate,

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Speaker 1: Hi wil.

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Speaker 2: Tim, we're both old enough to remember that. In twenty twelve,

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Speaker 2: Michelle Bachman won the Iowas straw pol when she was

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Speaker 2: running in twenty eleven. I remember when Ben Carson was

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Speaker 2: at the head of the polls back in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 2: These things happen. If Ramaswami makes it to the third debate,

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Speaker 2: he will probably be the very end of the stage.

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Speaker 2: This is his time in the sun. He's entertaining for

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Speaker 2: no other reason. I think people talk about him because

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Speaker 2: he was entertaining his debate prep was apparently playing tennis shirtless.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand how anyone could take him seriously. He

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Speaker 2: is just a cartoon figure to me.

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Speaker 1: I think he's trying out to be Trump's VP. I

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Speaker 1: feel like that's his agenda.

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Speaker 2: Which we just discussed that. One of the reasons why

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Speaker 2: Penn Scott it was because he had no personality and

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Speaker 2: the last thing Donald Trump wants is someone who could

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Speaker 2: out charisma him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this guy clearly does not understand who Donald Trump is.

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Speaker 1: He actually wants tree stumps in the White House. He

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Speaker 1: doesn't want people who've got magnetism at all. Lastly, Chris Christy,

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Speaker 1: I get you know, he played the role of flamethrower.

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Speaker 1: I have been happy to see him be willing to

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Speaker 1: speak his mind about Trump and trump Ism, but he

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Speaker 1: hasn't really carved out much on a policy path beyond

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Speaker 1: being the most open Trump critic. I guess during the

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Speaker 1: campaign season thus far, what do you think of his

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Speaker 1: performance on the debate stage and his possibilities.

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Speaker 2: I think you laid it out perfectly, and with Chris Christie.

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Speaker 2: He can't be the prosecutor going after Donald Trump without

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump there, so he made the lines he had to.

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Speaker 2: He did play some good defense at points, like when

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Speaker 2: ran Assami was going after him. I just think that

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Speaker 2: there's no way the Republicans are going to give him

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Speaker 2: the nomination. He could come in though in New Hampshire

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Speaker 2: he could come in second or third. It wouldn't surprise me,

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Speaker 2: mostly because in New Hampshire they have an open primary

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Speaker 2: where Republicans vote in the Republican primary, but independents can

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Speaker 2: vote in the Democrat or Republican primary. And since there's

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Speaker 2: no real Democratic party in New Hampshire, because they're changing

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Speaker 2: when the elections are being held, you may see a

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Speaker 2: flood of independence, which is about thirty eight in the state,

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Speaker 2: come into that and that could help Christy, but I

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Speaker 2: don't think it gets into where he needs to go.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to dwell on Hutchinson and Bergham. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry our show's short and no one really seems to

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Speaker 1: care enough about them, But I think we've zeroed in

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Speaker 1: on the people who may or may not mount a

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Speaker 1: challenge to Trump. I want to ask you to focus

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Speaker 1: on that moment during the debate when all of the

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Speaker 1: candidates were asked if they would support the indicted former

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Speaker 1: president if he was the Republican nominee. Everyone raised their hands,

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Speaker 1: but Hutchinson, bless his law abiding soul, Chris Christy did

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Speaker 1: a weird like half hand raised, and DeSantis actually looked

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Speaker 1: around to see what everyone else was doing before he

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Speaker 1: raised his hand, which I just thought was a pathetic

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Speaker 1: lack of courage, especially given how he's been trying to

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Speaker 1: carve out this place as the guy who's strong and wilful.

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Speaker 1: But what did that moment tell you about what you

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Speaker 1: were seeing on the debate stage.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't vote for any of those candidates, huh, by

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Speaker 2: the way him. I want to be able to vote

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Speaker 2: for a Republican I just haven't been able to because

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Speaker 2: I haven't found any that are credible and running serious

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Speaker 2: campaigns and doing serious things. They all are following Trump

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Speaker 2: and if you follow Trump. In my world, I consider

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Speaker 2: that disqualifying.

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Speaker 1: I admire you, Susan, in this crazy age we're in

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Speaker 1: because the primary voter in the Republican Party writ large

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Speaker 1: doesn't care if Donald Trump is burning the Constitution or

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Speaker 1: targeting the vulnerable. They just wanted to be present again regardless. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: there's I think a majority of other Americans who think

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Speaker 1: differently about it. But my thesis of the case has

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Speaker 1: been that this works for him in the primary. It's

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Speaker 1: going to be tested sorely in the national election, and

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Speaker 1: the Republicans are and that's why I keep calling it

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Speaker 1: a hostage video, because they're not taking the steps they

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Speaker 1: need to break out of his grip, and they're going

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Speaker 1: to pay a price, I think at the netal level

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Speaker 1: if the Democrats are smart about how they campaign.

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Speaker 2: Great point on that note.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a break, and then I want to come

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Speaker 1: back and talk with you about Donald Trump's vaudeville act.

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Speaker 1: With Tucker Carlson on Debate Night, We're back with the

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Speaker 1: wonderful Susan del Percio, a Republican strategist and always a

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Speaker 1: treat to talk to. We've been talking about the first

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Speaker 1: Republican debate, Susan, I now want to turn to the

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Speaker 1: Trump Carlson gabfest that was meant to bigfoot the Republican debate.

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Speaker 1: But just to get us off theme for one second,

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you about Rudy Giuliani, who's now

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Speaker 1: been indicted along with Trump, was a mastermind of the

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Speaker 1: dangerous and Bonker's effort to steal the twenty twenty election

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Speaker 1: for Trump. As someone who once worked closely with America's

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Speaker 1: mayor saw him become a fixture in the American imagination

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Speaker 1: after nine to eleven. What do you make of what's

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Speaker 1: happened to him?

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Speaker 2: Well, I've consistently just felt like, what a shame, what

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Speaker 2: a downfall. He has changed so much, I can't describe it.

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Speaker 2: It's every aspect of him. It's not just that he

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Speaker 2: defended Trump, it's how he defended Trump. It's the nastiness.

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Speaker 2: He now goes around with just a mean scowl all

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Speaker 2: the time. He's stuck in Trump World. And I've got

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Speaker 2: to tell you, I know people disagreed with Rudy Giuliani

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Speaker 2: when he was mayor, but most people I know this

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Speaker 2: because he got elected with sixty percent of the vote reelected.

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Speaker 2: They thought he was doing a good job and making

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Speaker 2: the city manageable. He did clean up New York City,

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Speaker 2: and on nine to eleven, he was there as a

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Speaker 2: true leader should be. And it was a result, I believe,

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Speaker 2: of Trump giving him a little hat on the back

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Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen when he said something really nasty about

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Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton and then he invited Rudy to be on

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Speaker 2: the plane. And then Rudy's like, oh, relevant again, and

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Speaker 2: that's what started to turn him.

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Speaker 1: It's sad, so that deep neediness to be in the spotlight,

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Speaker 1: to be needed, to be seen as a player. He's

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Speaker 1: that insecure.

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Speaker 2: And that being said, I think if it wasn't enough

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Speaker 2: that Donald Trump has spent twenty million dollars on lawyers

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Speaker 2: and still hasn't paid Rudy Giuliani, I think going through

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Speaker 2: that jail the other day for Rudy was devastating. And

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Speaker 2: I do believe. I believe this before he went to

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Speaker 2: the jail to get booked. I think he's a perfect

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Speaker 2: case for flipping. He does not want to go to prison.

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Speaker 2: And you know there's even talk among like inner circle

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Speaker 2: people like he remembers who he put.

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Speaker 1: Away and how he went about it, which was to

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Speaker 1: squeeze the people at the bottom to go after the

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Speaker 1: people at the top. So he knows he's going to

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Speaker 1: get squeezed.

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Speaker 2: And he also knows who's in the prison system and

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Speaker 2: that he's vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that Trump's really not going to help him.

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Speaker 1: Trump has an helping him with his legal bills. Trump

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Speaker 1: will cut him loose as soon as he can.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of Trump, he's been indicted four times ninety one

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Speaker 1: felony counts, including trying to sabotage the election. He decides

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Speaker 1: not to attend the first Republican debate. Fox courts him

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Speaker 1: mightily to become part of the political process. He ignores

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Speaker 1: it and instead does a little sit down in a

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Speaker 1: cabin with Tucker Carlson. And it was about forty five

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Speaker 1: minutes long. I'm sorry to say I watched the whole

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Speaker 1: thing because I had to. But I'd really love to

435
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: know what your big takeaway was from the Trump Carlson

436
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 1: puppet show.

437
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: Oh, there's so many And again, I like, you had

438
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 2: to watch it, so it was not something I enjoyed

439
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 2: in any shape or measure. But first of all, originally

440
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 2: I thought it was going to be true counterprogramming, meaning

441
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 2: it would be live so he can respond to what's

442
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 2: going on in the debate. Now, that could have had

443
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: a lot of fireworks. But I think one of the

444
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 2: reasons he had to tape it and also wipe on

445
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 2: Trump was not on that debate stage is his lawyers.

446
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 2: Just like the lawyers prevented him from doing a big

447
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: press conference on Monday to reveal all that was canceled,

448
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 2: that was him listening to his lawyers. I think he's

449
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 2: got to be surrounded all the time. And that interview,

450
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's an interview, that discussion that war.

451
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: Comody had come.

452
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, my guess is that the lawyers were like right

453
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 2: next to him, like, don't say that, don't say.

454
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,479
Speaker 1: That, especially because also he's gotten in trouble because of

455
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: his offhand remarks on TV and the EG and Carol

456
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: case and in the federal prosecutions around nine to eleven

457
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: and the classifyed documents. So he's already created defense problem

458
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: for himself by being on TV.

459
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: So if we would have seen that conversation ten years

460
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 2: ago among two people maybe of some prominence, but not

461
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 2: the level of Tucker and Trump, we would have said,

462
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: oh my god, right room, conspiracy what rabbit hole did

463
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: you go down to find that wacky video?

464
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: Do you know? I was talking to someone in the

465
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: office about old Saturday Night Live skits, and I remember

466
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: one like right after Henry Kissinger's memoir came out of

467
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: his time in the White House with Nixon, and he

468
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: revealed that Nixon was drinking too much during the Watergate

469
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: crisis and at one point asked him to kneel and

470
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: pray with him, and Saturday Night Live did just this

471
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: spoof of that of you know, I think it was

472
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: Dan Ackroyd as Richard Nixon going, you know, Henry kneel

473
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: down next to me and pray, and they're in front

474
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: of a Abraham Lincoln portrait that begins talking to them,

475
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: and everyone was like, gosh, this is so crazy. Look

476
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: what was going on in the White House and that era,

477
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 1: Like it's so quaint and silly, because in the Trump era,

478
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: these looney bizarre things happened publicly all the time, including

479
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: during the Carlson Trump conversation.

480
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: Yeahs Luoneyton. And again, I think a conversation is just

481
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 2: I wish there was a better word I could use,

482
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: because a conversation means an exchange of ideas of some sort.

483
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,239
Speaker 2: But this was just full of hate and anger. And

484
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: I will say this, There's one thing that I'm always

485
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: aware of, and it really irks me, or I shouldn't

486
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: say it's beyond irks me, it concerns me. Is the

487
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: talk of violence that was used. You know, we're talking

488
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: about elections. We know what happens when we talk about violence.

489
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: We've seen you know, Ruby the election worker in Georgia,

490
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: like people going after we know what it is to

491
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 2: see people showing up with guns in front of Supreme

492
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: Court justices home. These are things that truly concern me

493
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: because they're right at that pillar of like shaking the

494
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: foundation of our democracy.

495
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you focused on that because I think

496
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: that is the core takeaway from their exchange, because Carlson

497
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: came at it in three different ways. You know, he said,

498
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: early on the left protested against you, and then they

499
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: impeached you, and now they've indicted you. It's not gonna work.

500
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: They're probably just going to kill you, right, And Trump

501
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: didn't really bite fully, he went off into one of

502
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: his weird meandering in the forest thoughts, and then Carlson

503
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: came back to it again and said, you know, don't

504
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 1: you think they really want to kill you? And Trump

505
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: kind of well, they're all animals, and then he moved on.

506
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: And then towards the very end of the interview, he

507
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: asked Trump if he thought there'd be a civil war,

508
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: and Trump finally bit and he engaged with him, and

509
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: that gave him a moment to reflect on January sixth,

510
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, which Trump called a sort of a loving,

511
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: beautiful moment, which it was certainly not. But then went

512
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: on to say that among his supporters he sees both

513
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: passion and hatred and he thinks that's a bad combination.

514
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: And Tucker Carlson agrees and said, you're right, that is

515
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: a bad combination. But of course, Tucker Carlson and Donald

516
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: Trump jointly have fattened their wallets, their egos, and their

517
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: influence by stoking hatred and passion among viewers and listeners.

518
00:28:58,920 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: Do you think we're headed for.

519
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: Violent Well, let me give you this number. Thirty three percent.

520
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: That number is the amount of people who believe it

521
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: is okay to sometimes engage in violence political violence. That

522
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: came from the Common Good. It's a nonprofit, nonpartisan group

523
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: that looks for solutions to problems, works with independence.

524
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: And that's a survey of voters recently of Bipartisan survey.

525
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: What was the sample group.

526
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 2: So here's what I can tell you. It was their

527
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: first annual index. They did it in October and it

528
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: was basically starting to quantify and track levels of division

529
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: in our country. It was conducted by Emerson College of

530
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 2: a national multi model survey of one thousand people. Data

531
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: was collected October eighth through eleventh, twenty twenty two. But

532
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: thirty three percent like that was jarring to me. By

533
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: the way, forty three percent believe a civil war is likely.

534
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: That's the thinking. Yeah, that's why it so dangerous to

535
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: keep lighting these matches. It's going to cause a wildfire

536
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: at some point. And it may not be a huge

537
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: group this time, but there are going to be a

538
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: lot along Wilfs out there and people thinking about crazy stuff.

539
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: We should remember that there are more weapons in the

540
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: hands of individuals in the United States than the police

541
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: force has.

542
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I just go back to Gretchen Whitmore and

543
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: how there was an assassination tempt basically being plotted away

544
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: and it was stopped, thankfully, But they were moving along

545
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: with that plan, and in Michigan you can carry long

546
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: guns to the.

547
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: Capitol, which in fact they did exactly.

548
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: So the potential for violence in this country is just

549
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: right there every time. But more importantly, going back to

550
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: the conversation, the fact that that's how they think. I

551
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: don't know if they do it for ratings or just

552
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 2: to excite people, but they both care about what sells,

553
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: and they believe that violence sells also.

554
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: I think they believe that creating the idea that Trump

555
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: is somehow a martyr right and the possible victim of

556
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: a legal system that's holding him accountable, because by all accounts,

557
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: he looks like a serial criminal and he's an insurrectionist,

558
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: and the system has finally come around to holding him

559
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: into account. Carlson and Trump have an interest in saying, oh,

560
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: he's just a martyr for the cause, the MAGA cause.

561
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: Can you do me a favor please. As I was

562
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: listening to it, I was kind of doing a few

563
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: other things, cleaning up whatever. And this whole thing with

564
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: the Panama Canal and China is so bewildering to me

565
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: because I just know it, like in my sense of

566
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: living in this world that it's not true. But what

567
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 2: kind of craziness is this?

568
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: Well again, you know you were talking about how smart

569
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: and shrewd and important is Carlson and Trump to sell things.

570
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: And Trump came back to that in this conversation in

571
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. Well, actually in twenty fifteen when he rolled

572
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: down the escalator at Trump Tower, Remember he sort of

573
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: laid out this very racist and dark vision about immigrants,

574
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: their criminals, their rapists, some of them might be nice people.

575
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: And during the Carlson conversation he said his primary issue

576
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: was border. He didn't call it the border or immigration,

577
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: he just said border, said that it basically everyone coming

578
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,479
Speaker 1: from Latin America, primarily Guatemala, were criminals. So he was

579
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: ringing that bell again. And I think he got a

580
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: lot of traction at twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen around

581
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: the Yellow Menace scare with China, as well as the

582
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: fact that a lot of working class jobs did go overseas.

583
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: And I think working class Americans feel deeply aggrieved that

584
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: neither Republicans nor Democrats have authentically provided solutions to folks

585
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: who are in industries that have gotten chewed up amid

586
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: the technological revolution. And so I think Trump came back

587
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: to that on China, but only as Trump could to

588
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,719
Speaker 1: say that China controls the panelm Canal. That is not true.

589
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: China runs a couple of businesses that handle services at

590
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: either end of the canal itself, but Panama itself, the

591
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: country where the canal is, controls the Panama Canal. And

592
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: it's just untrue. But I think Trump doesn't count on

593
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: his closest supporters getting to the facts. He counts in

594
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: them being alarming. The idea that China controls a transit point,

595
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: and that was shocking to me. It was very shocking.

596
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: And in the same way that they started, the departure

597
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: point for their conversation was talking about Jeffrey Epstein, And

598
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: as Tucker Carlson said, you know, I'm not someone who

599
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: traffics and conspiracy theories, but boy, don't you think Jeffrey

600
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: Epstein was murdered in jail? And that's a nuts way

601
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: to begin a conversation with someone running for president?

602
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think while it was leading to

603
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: the bigger question, do you think they'll come after you.

604
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,959
Speaker 1: Susan, I want to take another quick break and then

605
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: we'll come right back. We're back with Susan del Percio,

606
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: a veteran Republican strategist. We've been talking about the First

607
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: Republican Debate, the Trump Carlson Vaudeville Act, and Trump's firm

608
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: hold on the GOP's primary voters. So Sudan, how do

609
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: you think this is all going to shake out for

610
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: the Republican Party short.

611
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 2: Term twenty twenty four. If Trump's the nominee, he loses,

612
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: I think it could be so bad. Between trumping at

613
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: the top of the ticket and the issue of women's

614
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: healthcare and their right to control their body is the

615
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 2: only issue that can turn Mitch McConnell from potentially being

616
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: majority leader, which is thought quite possible because of the

617
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 2: way the map works. The Democrats need to win six seats,

618
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: is basically what they're fighting for, and the Republican should

619
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 2: take control of the Senate. But under these circumstances, I

620
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: think it's possible that the Democrats sweep immediately all three House,

621
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 2: Senate and White House. Because Donald Trump is a problem

622
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 2: for every rept Republican running. And it doesn't matter if

623
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: you say I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I believe

624
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: that Biden won. If you go against Trump on every issue,

625
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 2: But you're running down ticket from him, You're still lassoed

626
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: with Trump, and you're still talking about it because people

627
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: are going to always ask you, oh, Trump said this,

628
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 2: do you agree? Because you're a Republican now Looking a

629
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 2: little long term, I used to say twenty twenty eight

630
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: was going to be the year we'd see a lot

631
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 2: to shake out. But I also back then didn't see

632
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: Donald Trump running for president again. So Donald Trump, when

633
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 2: he was elected did something very smart. He reached out

634
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: to all the Republican state committees. And it didn't matter

635
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: if it was an important state or New York or California,

636
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: places where Republicans have no chance of winning any statewide races.

637
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 2: But he reached out to the Republican committee members and

638
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 2: the chairman, chair members and base. He got them to

639
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: stack because he had the support, you know, or they

640
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: supported him. I should say that's who's running state government,

641
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 2: that's who's choosing local candidates, that's who's getting you know,

642
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 2: whether it's congress or city council. I thought enough losses

643
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: would cycle those people out because people are going to

644
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 2: screen for better candidates and stronger leadership. But they're still

645
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 2: there and they're going to be there in twenty twenty six.

646
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: They're just runing twenty twenty four out. So I think

647
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 2: it's going to take another eight years to really flush

648
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 2: out the system. But it doesn't mean incremental changes can't

649
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 2: happen and certain states can't change, you know, maybe a

650
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 2: Senate seat here or there, and maybe get someone with

651
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: some common sense. It's okay to be super conservative as

652
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: long as you're not, you know, in the steps.

653
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: Of just principled and law abiding about it.

654
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 2: Imagine that be lawbin. But so I think that's where

655
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: it's possible. But like people always say, Susan, you always

656
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: trust the Republican Party, and yet you call yourself a

657
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 2: Republican strategist. Why aren't you a Democrat or at least

658
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: an independent. I'm like, because this is a two party

659
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: system country, whether you want it to be or not.

660
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: I understand the independent and third party candidates, but really

661
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: it's run by Democrats and Republicans. And if there are

662
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 2: no Republicans talking about governance, at least speaking up and

663
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,919
Speaker 2: having a voice out there, then we all lay down.

664
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 2: And what's the point of that?

665
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: And presumably some of the values you hold we've never

666
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: gotten specifically into sort of the laundry list of why

667
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: you consider yourself a Republican. But if it's classic Republican

668
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: values lower taxes, less regulation, a strong foreign policy, tilting

669
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: towards conservative uncertain social issues, or a plurality of them,

670
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: maybe not.

671
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: Okay, maybe not. But I actually think like.

672
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 1: For example, so you're maybe a Rockefeller Republican.

673
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 2: Exactly, but I would argue that for example, gay marriage

674
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: or abortion. I'll take the libertarians stand on that, saying

675
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 2: it's actually conservative to say stay out of my bedroom

676
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,959
Speaker 2: and stay out of my body. That's actually a very

677
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: conservative point of view. I know, it's not what the.

678
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: Last conservatism, yea, not contemporary conservative. What are Republican voters

679
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: get from the GOP that they aren't getting from Democrats?

680
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: Do you think there's something that Democrats could do without

681
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: giving up their core value to court Republicans or is

682
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: that just always going to be a bridge too far

683
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: on both sides.

684
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: No. I think you could see democrats moderate Democrats start

685
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: making inroads, but it has to be in a way

686
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: where frankly, the top of the tickets not Joe Biden.

687
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: I mean right now, the leadership there with Biden at

688
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: the top is something that is going to hurt turnout

689
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four. And I'm so who did Republicans

690
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: and independence for Biden in the Lincoln Project. So I

691
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 2: was trying to get those Republicans to say, like, I

692
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 2: know you voted fir him twenty sixteen, but you can't

693
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: do it again. You know what he is, vote for Biden.

694
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 2: That was the difference in the election. I'm not say

695
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: my effort like there were a lot of groups doing.

696
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: When I'm getting theme that I that theme.

697
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: And frankly, now what concerns me is that those people

698
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 2: aren't going to show up in twenty twenty four because

699
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 2: they really can't stand Biden. They really can't. They said,

700
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 2: I'll give him four years. I don't like him, but

701
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: I'll give him my vote. There's no way I could

702
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: vote for Donald Trump.

703
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 1: And they can't stand him. Why.

704
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 2: It's a great question. I think they take the most

705
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 2: liberal policies he has and amplifies them. I don't think

706
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: they realize that Joe Biden has been one of the

707
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: most bipartisan presidents.

708
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,720
Speaker 1: And a moderate, a moderate certainly with his own party.

709
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do think age is a problem for him.

710
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 2: But I also could say.

711
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: There's a lack of confidence Kamala Harris as his potential successor.

712
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: I think that's also a problem they're dealing with.

713
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: And ask Democrats why they're not excited to go out

714
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 2: and vote for them. I mean, if you can't get

715
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 2: a lot of Democrats excited, it's gonna be a lot

716
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: harder to get a couple of Republicans now.

717
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: Having said all that, it wasn't like Joe Biden in

718
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 1: twenty twenty was a young man ball of fire tyro

719
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: rushing across the political landscape, and people still voted for

720
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 1: him for the reason. I think one of the reasons

721
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: they voted for him was what you just identified that

722
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,439
Speaker 1: it also was a vote against another Trump term. Why

723
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: should we think that voted are any less alarmed by

724
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: Trump now than they were in twenty twenty If they

725
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: were willing to sort of hold their noses and vote

726
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: for someone they didn't have complete confidence in II Joe

727
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: Biden in twenty twenty, Why isn't it incredible argument to

728
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: be made that the House is burning justice ferociously right now.

729
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: Plus Trump's been indicted, his methods and his predilections have

730
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: all been made very public again. Why wouldn't that message

731
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: work now?

732
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: Well, is it enough to get people to turn out? No,

733
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: that's the problem.

734
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: Why not?

735
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 2: Some of it is going after Trump is but I

736
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 2: actually think the abortion issue will be the factor that

737
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 2: helps Democrats get over the line. That will be the

738
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 2: primary issue and democracy. But the other thing was people said,

739
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: all right, we need to change this. Joe Biden will

740
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 2: basically be the pivot to normalcy. Not Joe Biden's fault.

741
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 2: But we are not in normalcy. So then you give

742
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 2: up on it. So you say, you know what, maybe

743
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: this whole system has gone to hell in a handbasket

744
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: and that's it, Like I give up, or I just

745
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 2: can't vote for Biden. It in no way I'm voting

746
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 2: for Trump. But I'm just gonna sit this one out.

747
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I think Biden's messengers have been focusing properly

748
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: on where the economy is. You know, job growth has

749
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: been great, Inflation has been a nightmare, but that is cooling.

750
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: And the US has proved to be the most resilient

751
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: global post COVID economy of any And I think they've

752
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: run good foreign policy in Ukraine, et cetera, et cetera.

753
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: I agree, but I think Republicans have successfully weaponized wokeism,

754
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: and some of that gets I think, ruthlessly and inaccurately

755
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 1: deployed nationally, and Biden suffers from some of that.

756
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 2: And another thing that I believe you're going to see

757
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 2: happen and it's going to hurt turnout for Democrats is

758
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 2: the mortgage rates. They're the highest they've been in twenty

759
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: four years, and that means people can't buy a home.

760
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 2: That to them is the sense of am I doing well?

761
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,959
Speaker 2: And it's not because for the price of the house,

762
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 2: but with the mortgage, it's just too much of a

763
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 2: heavy lift. And when I did a lot of polling

764
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two, I was surprised to see affordable

765
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 2: housing creeping up there. And then we broke it out

766
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 2: and saw home ownership, and then we focus groups on it,

767
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 2: and when you saw people frustrated they can't afford a home,

768
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: like they're working two jobs and I can't like it's

769
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 2: what breaks them, and it's what says, like the system,

770
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: who cares? They're all bad.

771
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: We could do a whole show on housing. I will

772
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 1: point out that even with these escalated interest rates on houses,

773
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: the rates twenty years ago were considered historically low at

774
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: the time. We've just been through this era of such

775
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: rock bottom rates that everyone could get mortgages. I mean,

776
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: we would go down a rabbit hole on that as

777
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: a topic, but it's a great one for you to

778
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: bring up. I want to ask you one last question.

779
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: I always like to ask people at the end of

780
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: the show what they've learned, and I wanted to ask

781
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: you what you've learned from this recent round of Republican

782
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: debates and Trump's side show that you didn't know prior

783
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: to that occurring.

784
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: I know now that the Republicans, other than Trump running

785
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: will not offer a vision of their own or for

786
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 2: the country's future. Sure, I was really hoping to see

787
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 2: that in the debate. I really thought that was a

788
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 2: great opportunity, and I realized they just aren't the caliber

789
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 2: of people we need running this country. When it comes

790
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: to that Tucker Carlson interview with Donald Trump, the violence,

791
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: I didn't expect it to be so violent. Like the

792
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: talk it was threaded throughout, and even Trump's responses, you know,

793
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: the way he spoke, I knew it would be him

794
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: just spouting off and saying, you know, I did everything perfectly.

795
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 2: I just didn't quite expect.

796
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: That, Susan. We are out of time and I could

797
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: have kept talking to you for at least another hour.

798
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: So I'm grateful that you came and spent a little

799
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: bit of time with me today.

800
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 2: Oh great to be with you, Tim, Thank you for

801
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: having me.

802
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: Susan Delpercio is a Republican political strategist and an advisor

803
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: to a variety of political and corporate campaigns. You can

804
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: find her on LinkedIn and on Twitter at del Percio

805
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: s Here at Crash Course, we believe the collisions can

806
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 1: be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and always instructive. In today's

807
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: Crash Course, I learned that at least six of the

808
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 1: seven Republican challengers to Donald Trump for the presidential nomination

809
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: lack the courage to stand up for their own convictions

810
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: and condemn Donald Trump for being a serial lawbreaker. What

811
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: did you learn? We'd love to hear from you. You

812
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: can tweet at the Bloomberg Opinion handle at Opinion or

813
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 1: me at Tim O'Brien using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course.

814
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening

815
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: right now, and please leave us a review, it helps

816
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: more people find the show. This episode was produced by

817
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: the indispensable Anna Maserakas, Moses Ondem and me. Our supervising

818
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: producer is Magnus Henrickson, and we had editing help from Sagebauman,

819
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: Katie Boyce, Jeff Grocott, Mike Nize, and Christine Dandon by Lart.

820
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: Blake Maples does our sound engineering and our original theme

821
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: song was composed by Luis Garra. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll

822
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: be back next week with another Crash course