1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: She definitely committed so many offenses that harmed real life people. 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: So I think to flatten something like that into this 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: like very crivolous, like fun, glossy slog of a TV 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: show full stop I Dot dot Dot there are No 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. As a production of I Heart 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd, and this is 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: there are No Girls on the Internet. We spend a 8 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: lot of time on the show talking about lies and 9 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: the Internet, and I have to say that part of 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: the reason why I personally work on disinformation issues is 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: because of my intense fascination in things that are not true. 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: How do lies function, why do we believe them? Who 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: profits off of them? And how do they shape our world? 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: So when the story first broke about the fake German 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: heiress Annah Delby, I was of were fascinated. Anna real 16 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: name Anna Sirokan had been scamming investors, hotels, even her 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: own friends in pursuit of opening an art foundation and 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: private club called the Anna Delvy Foundation. The club, like 19 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: the millions of dollars of family money that Anna said 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 1: that she was supposedly worth, never materialized. Anna's former friend, 21 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: Rachel DeLoach Williams first introduced the world to Anna after 22 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: she wrote about their disastrous trip to Marrakesh. Anna initially 23 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: agreed to pay for the trip, but never managed to 24 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: put down a working credit card at the pricey villa 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: where they were staying. When hotel staff insisted that somebody 26 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,559 Speaker 1: put down a functioning credit card, Rachel was pressured into 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: putting the cost of the entire trip sixty two dollars 28 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: more than a year of her salary, on her work 29 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: and personal credit cards. Now, Anna assured her that she 30 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: would wire her the money to pay her back, but 31 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: she never did. In the end, Rachel helped lead police 32 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: to Anna's are abouts, which led to Anna's arrest and 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: conviction for one count of attempt at grand larceny, three 34 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: counts of grand larceny, and four counts of theft of 35 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: services related to her various scams, but she was found 36 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: not guilty of the Rachel was out for the trip. 37 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: Last month, Netflix released Inventing Anna, a fictionalized, very sympathetic 38 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: retelling of her con based on the reporting of Jessica 39 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: Pressler at New York Magazine. Anna's crimes were so flashy 40 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: and outlandish it was hard not to pay attention, and 41 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: that Rachel says is kind of part of the scam. 42 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: In her book, my friend Anna Rachel writes, I have 43 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: come to understand that your attention is an investment. Giving 44 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: someone your attention is the act of being influenced, whether 45 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: or not you're aware of it in the moment, and 46 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: especially in this age of constant simulation, with endless people 47 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: and stories competing for your clicks, likes, follows, and time. 48 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: Your attention as value. It is power, It's worth something. 49 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: It can even put money in someone's pocket. Be careful 50 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: where you spend it and understand the cost. I spoke 51 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 1: to Rachel about why our current digital media landscape is 52 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 1: presenting a golden age for scammers and what that means 53 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: for all of us. And this one quick note. We 54 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: were recording on a noisy day in Brooklyn, so the 55 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: audio quality might not be what you're used to from 56 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: this podcast. Why do you think this is? Why do 57 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: you think we're in this era where people cannot get 58 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: enough of people who lie and scam and steel and 59 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: cheat others. Yeah, it's a good question, and I've certainly 60 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: asked myself the same one. But I think I have 61 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: a kind of unique vantage point in that I lived 62 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: through like a conversethand and I know that's sort of 63 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: how it works. It's sort of this larger than life, 64 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: flashy illusion, like a magic trick that is meant to 65 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: grab your attention so that while you're busy sort of 66 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: puzzling over it, you know, whatever sort of business is 67 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: going on behind the scenes can can happen without too 68 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: much focus or or analysis, I suppose. So it's I 69 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: think it um there's a fascination with with you know, 70 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: tricksters and with like it is in many ways like 71 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: like watching a magician at work, and so that people 72 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: want to want to watch as like a voyeur to 73 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: understand where this light of hand occurred, how someone fell 74 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: for it, and and and you know, especially in this 75 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: age where it is kind of hard with the Internet 76 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: and with all of these different media forms coming at 77 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: us to discern between fact and fiction. To get to 78 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: watch something in an arena that seems pretty low stakes 79 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: because it's built as entertainment, I think it's people enjoy 80 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: maybe like they don't think about it that hard, but 81 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: they enjoy getting to see something that that strattles that 82 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: divide on purpose. In talking about the Netflix show inventing 83 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: Anna you talk, you right, really compel only about this 84 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: that one of the reasons why the show is kind 85 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: of dangerous is that it does sort of aim to 86 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: straddle that line. Each episode starts with this is a 87 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: completely true story except for the things that are fictionalized, 88 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: and I think as a viewer you might not really 89 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: know that you're act like it can be used as 90 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: a way to heavily deeply fictionalize something that actually people 91 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: actually experienced, and I think that could the purposeful straddling 92 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: of that line of fact and fiction and kind of 93 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: blending them can be a little bit dangerous because the 94 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: stakes do feel well, it just feels like entertainment exactly. 95 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you've said it, and somebody is better than 96 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: I can say it myself. But that's that's exactly right, 97 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: and it's kind of disheartening. I mean, I appreciate that, 98 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: like you're speaking of about this too, and other people 99 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: you know, are certainly paying attention um now. But I 100 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: think part of the reason I chose to continue talking 101 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: about this, which you know, the story which is well 102 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: and truly behind me and I would love to like 103 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: move on from and not be discussing today. But The 104 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: reason I'm speaking up is because I see something happening 105 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 1: that's that's a precedent that I do think is troubling, 106 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: that I do think is dangerous, and I do think 107 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: it it requires viewers to ask questions, probably more so 108 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: than we can expect a media company who profits from 109 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: it to do. But the Netflix show Inventing Anna does 110 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: do this thing where it like sticks that label up 111 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: as a as a disclaimer, but it blends uh, you know, 112 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: factual information with things that are completely made up, as 113 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: it says it does. But it makes viewers go online, 114 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: look things up, see that some things are true, and 115 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: then that creates this foundation of credibility that allows them 116 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: to think, well that this is true. I believe the 117 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: narrative that they've wove in with you know, this big, 118 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: big budget production and all these like whistles and bells 119 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: and like how compelling is that? Um, you know, storytelling 120 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: is really powerful, and I think that's why it requires 121 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: a level of responsibility. I think people are apt to 122 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: believe things that they watching stories or that they connect 123 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: to in terms of a narrative, more than sometimes dry 124 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: facts that they hear on the news. Yeah, you know, 125 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: you describe this in your book um and talking about 126 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: the way that um Anna's crimes have been glamorized in 127 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: part of my places like Netflix, that you see it 128 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: as a big picture problem. Is that sort of what 129 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: you were referring to, Like that that's sort of the 130 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: the big picture problem that you're describing. Yeah, that I 131 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: think specifically, I have become very mindful of the ways 132 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: that our attention can be commodified. So when Anna was 133 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 1: released from prison the first time before she was detained 134 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: by ICE, I was asked to do a bunch of 135 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: media appearances commenting on her release, and I declined because 136 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: I was like, why, you know, why would I do that. 137 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: I've already written the book, it's out, I've moved on. 138 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: I have no interest in sort of coming out and speaking. 139 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: You're hypothesizing about what somebody may or may not do 140 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: after jail like she did, she did her time. Like 141 00:07:57,920 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: all we can do is like hope that you know, 142 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: a speed like I hope doesn't happen again. But while 143 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: I was declining things, I saw that she was being 144 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: given various media platforms, and that would be fine if 145 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: she had something productive to say, But it felt as 146 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: though these different outlets were just giving your space to 147 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: rationalize her behavior, to continue peddling belief in this, you know, 148 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: and fictional in my mind, like this fictional intention, you know, 149 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: like I was really going to do it. I didn't 150 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: mean to never pay someone back, like all of these 151 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: things that I believed for far too long, and that 152 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: she's now getting to sell to a broader audience. So 153 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: as I was watching that, what I realized is our 154 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: attention to her, Our attention to people like this, our 155 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: attention to things is what gives them influence and power. Um. 156 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: So when they say it's a big picture problem, I 157 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: think what I'm really referring to is is the attention 158 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: economy and the way that we think we're watching something 159 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: just without steaks, but our viewership in itself is actually 160 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: something that it does have a monetary value and also 161 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: a value in terms of our our own behavior, our beliefs, 162 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: um and and how how we moved through the world. 163 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: You write about how Ana will be given these like 164 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: very convivial interviews where it's clear clearly the interviewer was like, wow, 165 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: this Anna, this Anna Delby, like can you can you can? 166 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: You believe it? And they would have these buzzy headlines, 167 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: and I guess part of me is like, like, how 168 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: can you print the words of somebody who lies if 169 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: you're a journalist or a reporter. Like somebody asked like, oh, 170 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: you just how to talk to Anna for this interview? 171 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: And I was like, why would I Why would I 172 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: want to talk to somebody who lives? Yeah, I mean 173 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: I think there's a way to do it. There's actually 174 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: a sixty minutes Australia Interviews I thought it was. I 175 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: mean that it's of course still kind of sensationalized around 176 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: the edges, but at least the viewer how to vary 177 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: firm uh like framing device in which he you know, 178 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: it's it's the same way I think the most successful 179 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: interviews with someone like Donald Trump were conducted where you 180 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: have a baseline foundation of truth fiction, you know, some 181 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: some degree of commonly shared right wrong when it comes 182 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: to like ethics or reality, and you you actually try 183 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: to hold someone to account. That's interesting, And then I 184 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: think it's actually like journalism. Um, but I think what 185 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: I do find puzzling or I understand it, but I 186 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: think I find it, you know, problematic, is the way 187 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: that so much of our media and our news sources 188 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: today are driven by not by quality but traffic, so 189 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: so so places are incentivized to come up with these 190 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: clickbait headlines, with these really sensationalized recaps of you know, 191 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: you know events that in real life we're interesting, but 192 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,119 Speaker 1: you know, are so much more interesting if you embellish 193 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: these details. That And it was troubling for me because 194 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: watching like even during the try, all the white people 195 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: are reporting on what she was wearing or like, you know, 196 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: she's so audacious, can you believe, like, like, yeah, she is, 197 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: That's what you know. That's what drew me into the friendship. 198 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: Friendship to here's this person you can't quite figure out, 199 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: Like she's she's wacky, she's really confident. She's doing these 200 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: these things that kind of break your brain and make 201 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: you sit there and stare and kind of ask questions. 202 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: But that's how it works. Like while we're doing that, 203 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: like no one's asking where's the money coming from? Like 204 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: who's what are the what's the impact of this person's 205 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: behavior and why doesn't matter. According to BBC News, which 206 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: filed a Freedom of Information Act request, Netflix reportedly started 207 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 1: paying Anna before she had ever't even gone to trial. 208 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: They paid thirty dollars, which went towards paying her lawyer. 209 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: Then Netflix paid for the rights to adapt Anna's story 210 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: into the show Inventing Anna. In total, Netflix reportedly paid 211 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: Anna three hundred and twenty dollars. Now that money was 212 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: initially frozen toe of her victims a chance to sue, 213 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: and even though some of her victims did file claims 214 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: for a portion of those funds, whatever has left over 215 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: that didn't go to paying the lawyers just goes right 216 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: to Anna. And what did Anna spend that money on? 217 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: Designer clothing? You've written about the fact that Netflix paid Anna, 218 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's a little bit of one of those 219 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: things where she used the money to pay legal fees. However, 220 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: I would argue that it's not like it's not like 221 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're her legal fees, and so if 222 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: somebody gives me money and I'm like, oh, I use 223 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: that money to pay my bills, I feel like it's 224 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: a bit of a stretch to say that I'm not 225 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: benefiting from that. But whatever, Uh, do you feel that 226 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: Netflix is contributing to an ecosystem where lying and scamming 227 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: can be financially rewarding and financially lucrative. Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, 228 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: this is like very cut and gy evidence of that 229 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: because they moved so quickly to tom option the story 230 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: that it they ended up paying Anna before her case 231 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: even went to trial, before she even went to trial, 232 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: and that that's the money that was used initially to 233 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: pay her criminal the criminal defense layer whom she chose 234 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: to pay his his like a initial fees, and then 235 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: beyond that they they started their writer's room. The day 236 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: that the trial began. There were Netflix writers in the courtroom. 237 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: Her lawyer was representing her and her entertainment dealings at 238 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: the same time he was representing her in a criminal trial. 239 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: And I knew that at the time, which is part 240 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: of why I think I went into it feeling I mean, 241 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,839 Speaker 1: of course, I was also so raw, and it was 242 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: also fresh, and I was so emotional way more, you know, 243 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: I wish I had I had had like a little 244 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: more distance from everything, you're a little more composure. But 245 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: I just felt, frankly so gaslighted by the fact that 246 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: I was being accused of using my testimonious content into 247 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: entertainment quote unquote because I was writing a book, um 248 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: while at the same time I knew that everybody there 249 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: was doing that, and I actually wasn't, like, you know, 250 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: I was left sixty dollars in debt, Like I was 251 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: just finding a way to like heal, to understand, to 252 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,079 Speaker 1: move forward. Um so yeah, it was really toxic Tervy. 253 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: And I do think Netflix certainly not only influenced the 254 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: coming to justice proceedings, but also gave this person who 255 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, we can all think what we want to think, 256 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: but looking on paper at her past actions, she is 257 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: a convicted criminal and they have created for her a 258 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: glamorized version of her crimes, given her a platform, given 259 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: her an audience, and set her up with a viewership 260 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: that she can now continue to monopolize. Like she will 261 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: continue to make money on the notoriety that she achieved 262 00:14:44,280 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: through permitting criminal acts. Let's a quick break utter back. 263 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: Scammers are not a new phenomena. They've always existed, but 264 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: in the age of streaming services and social media, it 265 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: seems like we're living in a golden age for scammers, 266 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: where if your scam is flashy enough and captures our 267 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: attention and just the right kind of way, what might 268 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: have started as a scam can be laundered into a 269 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: more legitimate platform. For instance, Netflix is The Tinder Swindler, 270 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: a documentary that chronicles Simon Leviv, who posed as a 271 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: wealthy jet set playboy by duping women that he met 272 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: on the dating app Tinder out of thousands of dollars. 273 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: Leviv's con involved convincing women to loan him money throughout 274 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: landish lies, and since the documentary, Levev is clearly trying 275 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: to parlay the attention and notoriety from his cohn into 276 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: a pathway of a more legitimate, not to mention, lucrative platform. So, 277 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: as Anna once intimated to a BBC reporter, it's kind 278 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: hard to say that crime doesn't pay, because it seems 279 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: like in our current media landscape it kind of does. 280 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: Do you think that we live at a climate where 281 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: people who scam and live people like like she was, 282 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: as you said, she was convicted of this. So it's 283 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: not like it's some big secrets. It's not like it's 284 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: you say, these are just the facts of what happened. 285 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: I feel like we are allowing pathways to legitimize these people. 286 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: And like, you know, maybe it started as a con, 287 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: and it started as a scam. By the end of it, 288 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: you'll have money and an audience and people who are 289 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: interested to see what happens next, and that you can 290 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: sort of legitimize that. Like, for instance, if you watch 291 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: the Netflix documentary The Tinder Swindler, um the scammer in 292 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: that case, Simone Simon Simon, something like that. Um, you know, 293 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: we got this big bump in social media followers. And 294 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: also is making pretty good money on cameo right now. 295 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: He's starting three hundred dollars for a personal shout out 296 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: and fourteen hundred dollars our business shout out. He has 297 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: a manager, He's talked about wanting to do a podcast. 298 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: You know, are are we creating? Are is the media 299 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: creating pathways for folks to legitimize what started out as 300 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: a scam or a con or a lie. Absolutely, And 301 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: I think, you know, looking back, it's actually a really 302 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: interesting book about this called The Attention Merchants by this 303 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: this man called Tim Woo. With the rise of reality 304 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: television and this model of normal person too to celebrity 305 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: uh as like a model for business. And then it 306 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 1: evolved into social media where people not you know, they 307 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: could It wasn't like winning the lottery. Everybody too could 308 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: do this if they found a way to brand themselves, 309 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: to market themselves. That was compelling enough to attract attention. 310 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: But as you've just realized, unless you have some kind 311 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: of outlandish loud stick or personality, like, no one is 312 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: really paying attention. And I think this is like now 313 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: evolved into curation, not just through digital media. But here 314 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: are these people, and these people have always existed, mind you, 315 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: but we live in an age where that kind of 316 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: behavior is really rewarded. You know, It's not an age 317 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: where it's about you know, morality or like like which 318 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: which sounds so like pollyannish and hokey, but it's very 319 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: much about this sort of the cult of personality and 320 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: who al chect our attention and like obviously who we 321 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: you know, voted our president is a testament testament to that. 322 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: What you just articulated is one of my biggest issues 323 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: and making the show is the way that we have 324 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: our entire digital ecosystem and media ecosystem is biased toward 325 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,719 Speaker 1: outrageousness and lies and scams. It's been a documented thing 326 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: that on social media, um incorrect information travels much faster 327 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: and much farther than accurate information. There's as saying like 328 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: a lie can travel around the world while the truth 329 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: is still betting on it us or some some variation 330 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: of that. But it's very true, absolutely true. And so 331 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: you know, we talk a lot on this podcast about 332 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: the ways that our landscapes have become this like marketplace 333 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: for extremism, and who's really losing is us the general public. 334 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: You know, there's a problem when the Weather channel is sensationalized, 335 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: like for the Weather Channel to be like whoa like 336 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, and giving these like hokey names to things, 337 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: and like making everything seem like a doomsday event and 338 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: it's like it's like sprinkling outside, like there's no news here. 339 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: They rely on viewership the same way as any other 340 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: channel does. So like for our entire economy to run 341 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: based on like clicks or attention like that is scary. 342 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 1: There are certain things that I think probably would we 343 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: we all might be a little better off if there 344 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: were other motivators. We all deserve timely thought, all accurate information. 345 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: And so even you know, your example of the Weather Channel, 346 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: I I need to know whether or not to bring 347 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: an umbrella, and I turn on the weather and it's like, 348 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, monsoons and hurricanes and oh my god, and 349 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: it's like, well, I'm being underserved because I don't know 350 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: if I need to bring an umbrella and I'm going 351 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: down the street, you know, And so we all we 352 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: all lose out. We all lose when we don't when 353 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: we have any kind of media ecosystem that is biased 354 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: towards sensationalism or lies or scams or clicks and outrageousness 355 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: rather than thoughtful, accurate, nuanced content, and it pushes us 356 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: to the extremes of either total belief or complete disbelief 357 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: because either you buy into whatever you know, cool age 358 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: you're looking for, like whether that's Fox News or you know, 359 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: some like extreme version of like CNN. Like you know, 360 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: they all have their their biased reporting techniques, right, But 361 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: like I think you either sort of hop on a 362 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: bandwagon or you say none of it's objective. I don't 363 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: believe anything, And then that's not great either, because there 364 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: are still things that should be believed. So I do 365 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: agree that it is a disservice to everybody because it 366 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: creates the system in which it's really hard to tell 367 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: truth from fiction. In my day, JAB I do a 368 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: lot of work combating conspiracy theories and things like that 369 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: and trying to try to understand why people fall prey 370 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: of them, and a big part of it, it's just 371 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: complete lack of complete lack of trust in the media institutions. 372 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: And I think that's a big reason why. It's like, 373 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: I can understand why somebody would just lose all trust 374 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: in media when that is the thing that fuels it. Yeah. Absolutely, 375 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: And there is a lot of similarity obviously. I mean, 376 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: the steaks are just sort of its apples and oranges 377 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: with when it comes to like someone like Anna and 378 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: like masculine conspiracy theories. But there is similarity in the 379 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: way that both um, I guess, like lie structures or 380 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: manipulation techniques rely on framing arguments in a way that 381 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: makes them almost irrefutable because they they they speak to 382 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: these sort of like cryptic abstracts or things that you 383 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: literally just can't disprove even though they are false. It's 384 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: like a flawed a flawed framing device. Uh. And I 385 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: think it's really hard for people, especially if you're isolated, 386 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: um to keep your feet on the ground and understand 387 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: what's happening if you're not familiar with that type of 388 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: behavioral pattern. After the disastrous trip to Marrakech, Rachel was 389 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: left with a six credit card bill that her credit 390 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: card company eventually forgave, but before that, Rachel struggled to 391 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: pay rent and took loans from loved ones to cover 392 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: bills to get by. She eventually published her book about 393 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: what she learned from a relationship with Anna, called My 394 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: Friend Anna, and sold the rights to develop her story 395 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: for television to Lena Dunham an HBO. Rachel takes a 396 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: lot of criticism for quote profiting off of her relationship 397 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: to Anna. So I wanted to go back to something 398 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: that you mentioned, which is that you sometimes take criticism 399 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: for the fact that you you know, published a book 400 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,959 Speaker 1: about your experiences, You've written about your experiences. Um. I 401 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: interviewed AMANDAA the axon are you probably know who she is? Uh? 402 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: And something that she said in that interview that I 403 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: will never forget is that, you know, she's often criticized 404 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: for making money, you know, writing books about what happened 405 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: to her. And you know, however, producers, filmmakers, writers, they 406 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: make a lot of money retelling sometimes like a really harmful, 407 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: deeply fictionalized account of something that like sort of happened 408 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: around her. But like it's always like deeply, deeply fictionalized. 409 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: And something that she said was that it's apparently everyone 410 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: else is allowed to profit off of something that happened 411 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,479 Speaker 1: to me except for me. Everybody who's coming money off 412 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: of my story but me, And I guess, you know, 413 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: why do you think this is? You know? I guess 414 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: I should say a side note, which is that if 415 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: I lost a lot of money, anybody who wanted to 416 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: pay me to tell the story of what happened to 417 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: me to recoup my expenses, I would absolutely say yes. 418 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: And I think that most people would. But I feel 419 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: that we have this expectation where victims are kind of 420 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: expected to be kind of holier than now. Meanwhile, the 421 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: people who harmed them, it's like they can do whatever 422 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: they can make money, however, And so I think, why 423 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: do you think that I think that comes from? Um? 424 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, I do completely agree with you. 425 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 1: It often feels like the victims are on trial more 426 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,719 Speaker 1: so than the criminals. Uh. And also like there's this 427 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: odd thing that I've realized, the word victim is has 428 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: so much packed into the connotations around the word. The 429 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 1: word It's like people think, as soon as you're no 430 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: longer in debt or as soon as you've been made 431 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: hold no matter how hard you hard, you have to 432 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: work to actually become okay, you're not a victim anymore. 433 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: Like you're now you know, and someone who's exploiting a 434 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: situation if you, you know, keep moving forward or if 435 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: you're seeing to succeed. And it's like, what is a victim? 436 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: Like does a victim? What does the victim look like? 437 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: I've had so many people reach out to me on 438 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: social media to say, you don't look like a victim, 439 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: and I think that is such a loaded odd thing 440 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: to say to somebody, Like saying that you were the 441 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: victim of a crime is not a request for pity. 442 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: It's a request for acknowledgement of a wrong that was committed. 443 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: You know. It is not like I'm still stuck in 444 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: this like stalled state and perpetuity. It's like, this happened 445 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: and that's a fact. Doesn't matter what you do afterwards 446 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: to be okay, you know, to to repair the damage, 447 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: to find a way out of it, Like that is 448 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: really not relevant. Um, But I think there there are 449 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: a lot of things that are distracting, especially when these 450 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: stories get retold through the lens of media or entertainment 451 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: people tend to fixate on the whistles and bells and 452 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: the flashy trips and the money um, and they hold 453 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: that I think the jury did the same thing. They 454 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: sort of hold that lens up and say, well, you know, 455 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: looking at the net gain, you were doing this before Anna, 456 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: and now you're doing this. You came out okay, therefore no, 457 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: the crime didn't happen. It's like, wait, so you're saying 458 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: I was too good at you know, finding like fighting 459 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: too the nail to find a way forward, Like, therefore 460 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: it didn't happen, Like what, why do I think it happens? 461 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,719 Speaker 1: I think it's really easy for people to hold on 462 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: to really simplified recaps of something that was actually very 463 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: complex and nuanced. And of course, looking back, red flags 464 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: look like this, like very tidy pattern. But when you're 465 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: living through something where you're dealing with a master manipulator, uh, 466 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, there's time between these these things that might 467 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: have tipped you off to trouble ahead. There's there's a 468 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: there's an actual relationship between real life people and everything 469 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: is much grayer than it appears in hindsight. Yeah, it's 470 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: so funny because I feel like a lot of people 471 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: I've seen and I saw, like I guess this idea 472 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: of you know, well, while that was happening, she definitely 473 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: wanted to go to Morocco, where she definitely wanted So 474 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: it's like who gives a ship like it just it 475 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: just seems so like picking apart. It feels very victim blaming. 476 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: It's very convenient and and I think people want to 477 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: look for a reason to explain why something bad has 478 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: happened to somebody, you know, especially if if it is 479 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: not like yeahly, you know, when it seems like someone's 480 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,479 Speaker 1: come out okay, then it's like, okay, we all have 481 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: like carte blanche to just sit here and talk about 482 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 1: why you deserved it. And you know, at the end 483 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,719 Speaker 1: of the day, like it's a everybody wants to be understood, 484 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: and like it steems to be misunderstood and it seems 485 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: to have things framed in a way that's not true, 486 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: especially when they're so personal and so many people are 487 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: forming opinions about you from so little information and flawed information. Um. 488 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, like everybody looks 489 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: at a story like this, which you know, it's not 490 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: a news story, it's like Taylor as old as time. 491 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: It's just in a in a modern uh iteration of it. 492 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: But you people look at it and they project um 493 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: their understand They come away with an understanding of it 494 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: based on their own life experiences. And if it's important 495 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: for people to think, if it looks too good to 496 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: be true, it probably is, or you know, don't get 497 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: sucked into materialism or like you know, everybody looks at 498 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: it and thinks these things. But I think that's actually 499 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: more telling of their own life experiences than it is 500 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: necessarily of mine. Like have I asked myself those questions? 501 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: Of course I have, Like if I had it, I think, 502 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's really important to look at That's why 503 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 1: I wrote A wrote I guess to start, and I 504 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: wrote what turned into the book, But do so that 505 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: I could frame, you know, piece together. That's like narrative 506 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: of experience that I lived through. Look at it, try 507 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: to like dig into it, understand what happened, what to 508 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: make of it, like why it happened, and how to learn, 509 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: heal and move forward. Something that you said. You said, 510 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: people want an explanation for why this happened to you. 511 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: I think what they're actually looking for is an explanation 512 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: for why this would never happen to that. So I 513 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: think it's about them, right, and I mean absolutely as 514 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: they don't even know me, and and like there even 515 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: if even if someone didn't eat either this experience, this 516 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: is something that happened, was that friendship. I knew her 517 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: for a year, were close friends for about three months, 518 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: three brief months. Like she never bought me clothes, she 519 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: never bought me shoes, she never bought like did I 520 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: work out with her? Yes? Did she pay for some dinners? Yes? 521 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: Did she invite me on this crazy vacation percent But 522 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: to say that anybody understands someone else's entire values like 523 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: value system and personality and character through like a few 524 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: months of what is a you know, thirties some odd 525 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: year life with so many more important like and like 526 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: I don't know telling things and it's just life is weird. Huh, 527 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: it's weird. I kind of say, I love this is 528 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: kind of a side note. I love your perspective on this. 529 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: I feel like if it's happen to me, I guess 530 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: I guess you know you were saying earlier how people 531 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: don't really see the work involved in getting you to 532 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: a place where you're like, well, this is behind me. 533 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: I'm speaking about it now not because I want to 534 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: relitigate what happened like the minutia of our relationship, but 535 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,479 Speaker 1: because I want to ask these like thoughtful questions about 536 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: what it says about our culture and all of that. 537 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: You think as someone who was like you know, I 538 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: know we don't see that work, but where you are today, 539 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,479 Speaker 1: it just seems like you're you. I really appreciate your 540 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: perspective of where you're at right now. I really appreciate 541 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: you like acknowledging or understanding that because it's very hard. 542 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,479 Speaker 1: You know, like even I guess being a photo producer 543 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: is much the same way. It's like if you're doing 544 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: it well, nobody pays attention to how it happened or 545 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: why it's happening in this way. But like it's I mean, 546 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: it's irritating, except that like there's nothing I can do 547 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: people who are I want to be wrong or it's 548 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: gonna be wrong. But like when people are like, oh 549 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: you just want the spotlight or oh you just want attention, 550 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,719 Speaker 1: it's like I've turned down so many more things than 551 00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: I have said yes to, Like this is a spot 552 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: late that I did not want. You know, I have 553 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: done the best I could with with something that was 554 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: very negative, and I've done the best I could to 555 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: make it into something positive, not just for myself, but 556 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: ideally for others. Do we have gone through the same 557 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: thing or or to prevent others from going through the 558 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: same thing? Um, but you're you like think you you're 559 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: you're You're completely right? What like my very specific and 560 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: clear objective as to why I'm still talking today? Does 561 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: does it really is about this spotlight that I didn't want? 562 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,239 Speaker 1: And and I thought very hard about whether or not 563 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: to just sort of like lie low not comment to 564 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: the Netflix thing came out like just like not say 565 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: anything at all. But I I recognize the value of attention, 566 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: and I recognize the fact that whether or not I 567 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: choose to engage with it, there would be this attention 568 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: coming my way. And it felt like there are so 569 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: many really important causes in the world that need attention. 570 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: There's so many important issues even relating to this specifically 571 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: that can't get able to pay attention to them. So 572 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: I really wanted to like yield the time towards asking 573 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: questions and then ideally, I mean like finding people like 574 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: you are, are you know, finding a way to sort 575 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: of redirect the spotlight towards towards activation partners who can 576 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: speak to these issues in a thoughtful way and and 577 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: make people think a little harder or or differently about 578 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: something that on the surface just seems so sort of frivolous. 579 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: Our attention has value, and it's also we only have 580 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: so much of it. And so when lies and outrageousness 581 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: are are amplified to get our attention, what's not getting 582 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: our attention? What important are just going overlooked? Because exactly, 583 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: And that's I think, that's that's so right. It's like, 584 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: you know, do I watch bad TV? Of course I do. 585 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: Do I eat junk food? Of course I do. Like 586 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: it's not to say don't do it, it's just to 587 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: be mindful that if that's all you do, like that 588 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: really will inform the your life. Like like you know, 589 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: when you are paying attention to these things that are 590 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: designed to suck up your attention, that are designed to 591 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: make you want more of them, they're addicting. You are 592 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: not paying attention to something else. You are not you know, 593 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: necessarily having the autonomy you may think you have over 594 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: the direction of of your purpose. I definitely know what 595 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: you mean more after a quick break. I know firsthand 596 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: that navigating are connected digital lives also comes with navigating 597 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: all kinds of complicated issues, like, for instance, what do 598 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: you do if you were going through a depressive episode 599 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: and completely stop answering emails? What's the etiquette around logging 600 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: back on and replying to them super late? Or is 601 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: it okay to not accept your boss or coworkers friend 602 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: request on social media? Now on there Are No Girls 603 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: on the Inner That's all new newsletter. Not only can 604 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: you get more Internet insights, but we will be weighing 605 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: in answering your Internet questions and conundrums. So subscribe to 606 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet newsletter at tangoti 607 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: dot com slash newsletter. And if you want to support 608 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: the podcast, thank you so much, check out our online 609 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: store at tangoti dot com slash store. Let's get right 610 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: back into it so you can probably tell that I 611 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: did not really enjoy the Netflix show Inventing Anna, and 612 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: one of my biggest issues with it is the way 613 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: that it frames Anna's crimes with a kind of girl 614 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: boss hustle mentality that she came to this country as 615 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: an immigrant with nothing, and that if she did maybe 616 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: do a little lying and scamming he were there, it 617 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: was only in pursuit of building something that she truly 618 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: believed in. After all, isn't that The American Dream? Over 619 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: on another scammer story, Who Lose the Dropout, which chronicles 620 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: the story of Elizabe Holmes, former CEO of Saranos, a 621 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: blood testing company that turned out to be a total scam, 622 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: actually does a pretty good job of showing how empty, 623 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: not to mention, dangerous, it can be when scamming and 624 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: lying is rebranded as vision or leadership. One of the 625 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,760 Speaker 1: questions I did have for you is that the Inventing 626 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: Anna Show does this, but I've also seen it kind 627 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: of glimmers of it, and other and other scammers and 628 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: just sort of a media in general, this idea of 629 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: like scamming and lying kind of being rebranded as hustling 630 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: or trying to achieve the American Dream or worse, girl bossing. 631 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: You know, I get, I completely, like logistically understand why 632 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: that's how it's framed or why it's how it's reframed, 633 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: but and it's such an easy narrative, but you know, 634 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of harmful to reframe feeling from 635 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: people and lying from people as hustling and girl bossing 636 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: and leadership. And I guess my question is like, what 637 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: are your thoughts about that? Have you seen this and 638 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: what do you think about it? Yeah, I think it's lazy. 639 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: I just I think it's lazy, and I do think 640 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: it does it does do damage to the reality. You know, 641 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: it's so backwards to to attempt to make something about 642 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: like classism, racism, sexism, and then to frame it in 643 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: a way that is promoting someone who couldn't care less 644 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: about those issues unless they're serving their own agenda Like 645 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: that is such a disservice to people who are actually 646 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: working to read, you know, to to explore and explore 647 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 1: these issues and create positive change in ways that are 648 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: actually meaningful and substantive, especially in in the past I 649 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: don't even know how many years, I guess like ten 650 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: years or so, maybe less like these these sort of 651 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: catch all buzzwords like like feminism or like um good grief. 652 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: There's a performative activism that that features words that have 653 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: become and be and and and like missions that have 654 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: become trendy, and I think shows like this have kind 655 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: of glommed onto that. I told her I watched the 656 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: finale of the show on piloo to drop that about 657 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes and the Serranos scam Lady. There was a 658 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: time in feminism were like a woman like a woman 659 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: like making money that was feminism. I do think there's 660 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: a kind of it's sort of a it's a sort 661 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: of like era feminism I'm not proud of where Yeah, 662 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: if you were just a woman who was make like 663 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: out for herself and making money, that was seen as 664 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: like a feminist win, and we didn't really ask a 665 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: lot of questions about are you harming people? Are you 666 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: you know can like like, we didn't really ask a 667 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: lot of questions. And I think that I kind of 668 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: see this era kind of maybe coming to a close, 669 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: I hope, But I think that that era really allowed 670 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: for women to be lauded as feminist icons for doing 671 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 1: things that actually hurt other people at their own expense. 672 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: I don't think the answer to chauvinism is a form 673 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: of feminism that mirrors the same thing, like that reverses 674 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: that that negative way of being. Like, I do think 675 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,240 Speaker 1: sometimes pendulum swing too far before they kind of find 676 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: their their middle, and it seems like that's what happened. 677 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: It's like, well, you did this for so long, therefore, 678 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: like it's my time to do it, and we should 679 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: celebrate the fact that I'm doing it. Um, it's I 680 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: think it's it's hard sometimes to see that when you're 681 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: in it, and when it's a reaction rather than like 682 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: like it's it's reactive rather than proactive. Right, So it's 683 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: it's it's like finding a way to exist as a 684 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: woman in reaction to what men have done wrong, rather 685 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 1: than just finding a way to exist as a woman. Um. 686 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: I don't have solutions, but I see the trend as well. 687 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 1: And I guess one thing related to the who we showed, 688 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: But I think that show actually strikes as I mean, 689 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 1: obviously what she did does not strike me as something 690 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: that was done well. But the show I thought did 691 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: a a good job actually of dramatizing real life events 692 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: because they framed her in a way that felt very 693 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: true to the actual sequencing of what happened. Like I 694 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,479 Speaker 1: read Bad Blood by junk Are You and it felt like, 695 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 1: you know, I followed a fact pattern and it framed 696 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: her not as someone that everybody was. I mean, you 697 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: saw how she was celebrated, but that was true to 698 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: the way that it happened in real life. It was 699 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 1: very true to the to the mixed reactions she received. 700 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: And I thought Amanda Seeping to an amazing job of 701 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: not like gleefully sort of relishing this like the stick 702 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 1: of the con but just in framing this sort of 703 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 1: very misguided, probably like psychologically unhealthy person who like just 704 00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: kind of lacked a certain like human hip that allowed 705 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: her to understand the importance of her decision making on 706 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: real lives. It just was such a foil for me 707 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: when I watched that versus what I had seen and 708 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: Inventing Anna, which really just looked like something that had 709 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: been made by people who really bought into what Anna 710 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: was selling. Oh my gosh, I so I am happy 711 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: to hear you say this. I felt the exact first 712 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: of all inventing Anna, all all of the issues that 713 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: you brought up with that, Yes, but also just like 714 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,879 Speaker 1: with a slug to watch, like I wanted to watch 715 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,320 Speaker 1: it before I talked to you, And literally my partner 716 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: was like, I feel like you've been watching this show 717 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,439 Speaker 1: for a decade, and I was like, you and me both, 718 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: but just wasn't an inter hitting show. And again having 719 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 1: that having like I felt the Dropout was different because 720 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,359 Speaker 1: it had empathy for the people who were harmed, right, 721 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 1: you saw these people who were you know, had cancer 722 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: and were involved in these blood these blood trials. You know. 723 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: It had empathy for the whistleblowers who risked so much 724 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,439 Speaker 1: to their of their selves to come forward. I felt 725 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: like it was a show that managed to demonstrate the 726 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: kind of seductive you know called the personality around a 727 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: scammer without falling prey to it, and inventing Anna was 728 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: exactly the opposite. It was done, Yeah, it was done 729 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: so thoughtfully and had such depth to it because yeah, 730 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: of course there are people who like popped on the 731 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: bandwagon and celebrated her like it was just the full 732 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: range of people who were made to to read like 733 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 1: real life people. You know. I think Inventing Anna flattened everybody, 734 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: And there's a way that can be done. And like 735 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 1: a show like Gossip Girl or a show that is 736 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: meant to be and in some ways I guess this 737 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 1: is but meant to be about materialism and superficiality. But 738 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: to reduce something like this where real real crimes were committed, 739 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: Real people's lives were impacted. It wasn't just these like 740 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: faceless things. There people who lose jobs. There are people 741 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: who obviously are not oviously. If we're obvious, that would 742 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't be a problem, But there are people who weren't 743 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: included in the you know, the court case. She definitely 744 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: committed so many offenses that that harmed your life people. 745 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: So I think to flatten something like that into this 746 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: like very trivelous, like fun, glossy slog of a TV 747 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: show full stop, I don't know, dot dot dot. Yeah, 748 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: I mean, it's there were times where I was like, 749 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,760 Speaker 1: are you meant to be rooting for Anna and the show? 750 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: And then the I think the richest part is at 751 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: the end, where the biggest crime the show seems to 752 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: suggest has been committed is the character that shares your 753 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: same name. She's like like, neth Is like you're a 754 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,240 Speaker 1: bad friend, and it's like, well Anna went to jail, 755 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: Like come on, like I know, I get, I mean, 756 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: and people really believe all that is fact, like you are, 757 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: like she bank rolled youre you for two years and 758 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: like I know better than to feed the trolls on 759 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: the internet. Like it's not my job to to like 760 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,720 Speaker 1: edge keep people about fact, Like what, like the truth 761 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: is out there if anybody wants to look for it. 762 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: But like I didn't even know her that long and 763 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: she didn't that thing like uh, but yeah, so to 764 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 1: have have it framed as though, like where's the loyalty, 765 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: It's like this is someone you know, we were not 766 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: best friends. I knew her, and also look what she did. 767 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: Look look at the pattern of her behavior. At what point, 768 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: what why are you suggesting people who are in these 769 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 1: like manipulative relationships, see their friendships or or whatever like that, 770 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,919 Speaker 1: that they are doing something wrong by choosing to leave 771 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: something that is so harmful. Like that's bizarre. That's like, 772 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: that's a very bizarre thing to say. Also, the show 773 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,400 Speaker 1: rearranged it as though I had been reimbursed before the 774 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: chial and that I like kept the secret of my 775 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: involvement with her arrest, like like or kept out a 776 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: secret like didn't happen. I was protected two years after 777 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: Marrakesh after the trial concluded. I didn't keep my involvement 778 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: in the sting some kind of like grand secret. I 779 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 1: wasn't ashamed of it, but I wasn't that close with 780 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: like Naphra Casey, you know, I like them, I don't. 781 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: I have nothing negative to say. It's like find everybody 782 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: can look back and see things through the lenses and 783 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: that's you know, it is what it is. But we 784 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: weren't in touch. It's not like I owed people explanations. 785 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,319 Speaker 1: I was out more than they made anything. They were 786 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: not left in any kind of like debt or like 787 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 1: there was no ongoing relationship there. So to suggest that 788 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: by not reaching out to say hello, like this is 789 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 1: what I have done and like it's like that's just weird. 790 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: Does it doesn't make any sense? Yeah? And I think 791 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: people people understand the way these relationships and acquaintanceships work 792 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: in their own lives and it's like, of course that 793 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: would be that you wouldn't owe these people anything or 794 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,840 Speaker 1: you wouldn't owe like you know, but when it's someone 795 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: else and that that that was that the minutia of 796 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: those relationships are like projected for everyone to pick apart. 797 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: Suddenly it's like, oh, why would she do that? Doesn't 798 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: you have loyalty? And it's like, well, calm down, think 799 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: about how this would actually go down if it was you, Like, 800 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: we all understand it in our own lives, but when 801 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: it's somebody else, I think it's like different. Yeah, evidently, 802 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: And I understand people don't tune INDI shows like this 803 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: to really think very analytically. It's mostly about just getting 804 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,799 Speaker 1: a good laugh at other people's expense, and like you know, 805 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,360 Speaker 1: I do too. It's fine, Like it's I'm not I 806 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: certainly can't like hate on people for being human, Like 807 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: that's how this breaks um. I just I think that 808 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,279 Speaker 1: the frivolity of it does conceal something that is a 809 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: bigger picture problem, as I have said, which is why 810 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 1: I figure, if I'm stuck in this this it was 811 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 1: like dumpster fire anyway, I might as well shy and 812 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 1: like send up a smoke signal about you know, red 813 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: flags that I know a little too well from the 814 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: first hand experience. Yes, speaking of your firsthand experience, one 815 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 1: of the last questions I have is, like, what has 816 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,800 Speaker 1: it just been like for you, Rachel, the person going 817 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 1: through this get in the social media's roles, getting people 818 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: who have maybe been misled about what happened from the 819 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: television show. What is it be like to deal with 820 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:17,360 Speaker 1: that on online? Yeah, I mean it's it's definitely not easy, 821 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 1: but I'm mindful of the like I'm I'm mindful of 822 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,279 Speaker 1: my my my privilege and my luck just to have 823 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: like such supportive family and friends, to have an awareness 824 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,440 Speaker 1: of exactly what it is that is happening, you know, 825 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: part of it I learned the hard way, just through 826 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 1: gas lighting with Anna to begin with, and now through 827 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 1: what I've learned in looking back at what happened looking 828 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: like you know, at at like I guess, I mean, 829 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,399 Speaker 1: reading the book helped me a lot, just in terms 830 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 1: of sort of looking at the pattern of behavior as 831 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 1: a pattern rather than like this. When you're in a 832 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: relationship like that, it's really hard to see anything is 833 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: black and white, because it's not. Life is grey, um, 834 00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 1: But looking back things seems so much clearer to me. 835 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: So I'm grateful to have had people who believe me, 836 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,400 Speaker 1: who like like a platform to speak from the opportunity 837 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,760 Speaker 1: to speak, which all that is to say it's hard, 838 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: But part of the reason I'm speaking up about it 839 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,000 Speaker 1: is because I think that the structure of the Netflix show, 840 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: or or this broader pattern that's happening, it does a 841 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: disservice to people who don't have that ability to understand 842 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: what's happening to them who might not get to hear 843 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: stories like this because people are ashamed or they're scared 844 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,879 Speaker 1: of the victim blaming, which is completely fair. It's not 845 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's it's wild, um, and it's you know, 846 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: I can have my feet on the ground and my 847 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 1: head on my shoulders, and if I sit there and 848 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: read that for longer than maybe like ten minutes, like 849 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,759 Speaker 1: it's even if you know that, you know it's it's 850 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: actually not about you. It doesn't feel good to have 851 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,400 Speaker 1: that kind of energy coming in, Like I mean that 852 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 1: sounds so woo woo, but like that kind of hostility 853 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: coming at you, Like it's like death by paper cuts. 854 00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,319 Speaker 1: Like you can be the strongest rock in the water, 855 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,200 Speaker 1: but like if it keeps running, like you're gonna get 856 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,920 Speaker 1: worn down. Um, so it's hard, but I recognize that 857 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 1: it's harder, so much harder for so many other people, 858 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:15,520 Speaker 1: and uh yeah, then it can be pretty nasty. We've 859 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 1: talked a lot about how the dangers that come when 860 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 1: we give up, when we willingly give our attention a 861 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: way to liars and scammers and people who are outrageous 862 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 1: and extreme. Um, do you ever see a situation where 863 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 1: things like nuanced thoughtfulness, UM, honest accurate content will be 864 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,400 Speaker 1: amplified over that kind of extremism and and lies. Do 865 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: you think that we're this is just it forever or 866 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:47,839 Speaker 1: do you see do you see a change coming? Um? 867 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,799 Speaker 1: I mean, as evidenced by past behavior. I am kind 868 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,560 Speaker 1: of a willful optimist through and through, and that is 869 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: just who I am. So I always hoped for that, 870 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:04,720 Speaker 1: you know. UM, I do think the damage done by 871 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: what you just said, like the the pattern. What I'm 872 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,400 Speaker 1: trying to say is the truth will out and and 873 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:17,839 Speaker 1: it's one thing to think the pattern of celebrating these 874 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 1: individuals does do harm. That is and will be visible 875 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:27,359 Speaker 1: until there is a movement in the opposite direction. So 876 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 1: I think we've already seen that, like from like me 877 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,480 Speaker 1: to forward, where people are starting to pay attention to 878 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,239 Speaker 1: things in a different way and actually attempt to hold 879 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,560 Speaker 1: outlets and individuals to account. Um. I just think it's 880 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: in very specific arenas thus far that that seems to 881 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,320 Speaker 1: be happening. And I think people like to to sort 882 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: of pretend that things they do for entertainment don't touch 883 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,080 Speaker 1: on the same subjects or don't have the same impact 884 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:03,480 Speaker 1: or our seriousness, and that to me is that that's 885 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: the very slow I hope that people recognize these things 886 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,440 Speaker 1: are not separate. They're inextricably linked to the way that 887 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:18,319 Speaker 1: me as a culture um celebrate people and and uh 888 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:26,839 Speaker 1: former blieves that's really smart. Got a story about an 889 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi? 890 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,480 Speaker 1: You can be us at Hello at tangodi dot com. 891 00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,880 Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi 892 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was 893 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 1: created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeart 894 00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,120 Speaker 1: Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. 895 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,640 Speaker 1: Ary Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Motto 896 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,279 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If 897 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,000 Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us 898 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,480 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check 899 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,680 Speaker 1: out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you 900 00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:05,080 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. And then I have to rum, and 901 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,279 Speaker 1: then I have to ormed.