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Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: The movie Babe is very, very important in my family,

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Speaker 1: and what takes the movie from good to grade is

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Speaker 1: the humanity and the wisdom in James Cromwell's farmer Hogget.

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Speaker 1: Cromwell was already in his fifties when Babe came out.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to forget that his weathered face was still

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Speaker 1: a fresh one. In Hollywood. He was a working actor.

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Speaker 1: He played Archie Bunker's buddy Screech Cunningham in All in

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Speaker 1: the Family, but Babe was his breakthrough role, and the

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Speaker 1: moment he broke through, he put his celebrity to work.

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Speaker 1: Cromwell might be the most committed activist in Hollywood. Not

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Speaker 1: just fundraisers and photo ops. Cromwell's in the streets and

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Speaker 1: chain defenses. He's been arrested five times. Both art and

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Speaker 1: politics are in James Cromwell's blood father, mother, grandmother, stepmother

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Speaker 1: all actors. And you grew around that. I grew up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I grew up until I was six. They were divorced

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Speaker 1: when I was six, uh, and so I moved with

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Speaker 1: my mother back East. I think I was probably nine

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Speaker 1: when I went out for the first time with him

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Speaker 1: to Hollywood, and then he was in fifty three he

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Speaker 1: was blacklisted, so he came east the theater. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: was in Mary, Mary and Sabrina Affair, so too, very

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Speaker 1: long running plays. I think they each ran acting three acting.

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Speaker 1: So for people who don't understand that the Hollywood Blacklist

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Speaker 1: was to a large degree the Hollywood Blacklist, you can

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Speaker 1: go elsewhere and work or not. Everybody, and he had testified,

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Speaker 1: but he had left New York before the Communist Party

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Speaker 1: really got organized, so he had nothing to say. It

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Speaker 1: was always my father's opinion. It's my opinion too that

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Speaker 1: really the blacklist was directed not so much at Communists,

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Speaker 1: but principally first of all Jews, and then secondly people

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Speaker 1: who had come back from the Second World War who

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Speaker 1: had a different view about America, what was happening in

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Speaker 1: America because they could see what Eisenhower described as the

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Speaker 1: military industrial complex, and they could also, yeah, the discrepancy

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Speaker 1: between what America supposedly stood for and what it actually did. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: what was happening to the people of color, Indian people,

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Speaker 1: women's rights, not nothing existed. It was all people who

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Speaker 1: knew better, people who agreed were the more liberal and

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Speaker 1: democratic country kept their mouths shut so as not to

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Speaker 1: make ways. As you know that both all three unions

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Speaker 1: did not support the people who belonged to those unions

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Speaker 1: who were attacked by UK. Howard Us had bought the

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Speaker 1: studio and because my father had testified, he thought of

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Speaker 1: my father as a communist and wanted him out, but

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Speaker 1: couldn't fire him because of the contract, so he gave

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Speaker 1: him a film to direct, call I Married a Communist,

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Speaker 1: And my father knew what he was doing and said, listen,

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Speaker 1: I'll direct this, but you can't. I can't direct this.

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Speaker 1: You have to rewrite this. Well, he got writer after writer.

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Speaker 1: Nobody could fix this was a piece of ship. It

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Speaker 1: was just propaganda, until finally he settled. It was a

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Speaker 1: million dollar contract back in fifty three, settled the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: My father bought a building in Beverly Hills, came back

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Speaker 1: and did a play with Henry Founder called Point of

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Speaker 1: No Return about JP Marquand and won a Tony, so

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Speaker 1: his first time back on the stage you want a Tony,

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Speaker 1: and then went on to do many many plays in

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Speaker 1: New York until basically I did go back to Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: He swore that he would never go back, but he

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Speaker 1: did towards the end of his life. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: exactly why. And they did two of Robert Altman's pictures,

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Speaker 1: Three Women and The Wedding. Do you get a sense

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Speaker 1: that both acting for you and an activism for you

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Speaker 1: because of what your father went through with the being blacklisted,

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Speaker 1: do you find that that had that impact on you

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Speaker 1: and your life? He is a role model. Obviously. I

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Speaker 1: loved um what I knew of his principles, what he

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Speaker 1: stood for. Um. He had a very jaundiced view of Hollywood,

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Speaker 1: which I share. He was very frustrated all his life.

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Speaker 1: He was a very good director, but he didn't promote

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Speaker 1: himself the way Ford and Hawks did who had publicists,

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Speaker 1: and so he didn't. He sort of was down the

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Speaker 1: food chain as far as the projects all that, and

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Speaker 1: then of course what he went through in the studio system,

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Speaker 1: you know, with as the personnelity, as you know, as

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Speaker 1: you will know, and uh you you encapsulate. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to dwell on this because I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about more positive things. But give me an

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Speaker 1: example of what your frustration with the town as man,

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Speaker 1: not give you mine? Okay, the emphasis on celebrity, the

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Speaker 1: emphasis on profit packaging an independent voice. John Wells telling

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Speaker 1: me he wrote a beautiful story about a man who

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Speaker 1: lost his job in in two thousand and eight and

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Speaker 1: had to go live with this um his in laws

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Speaker 1: and selling telephones. He had been a big executive and

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Speaker 1: what that the tension in his family, what it did

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Speaker 1: to him personally. The studio he had a deal first

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Speaker 1: look with the Warners, and Warner said, yeah, that's great, great,

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Speaker 1: We'll put Tom Cruise in it. John said, no, no,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is a little film. You put

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Speaker 1: Tom in it, the accountants are going to tell you

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Speaker 1: that you gotta be it's gotta be capsized. The capsizes

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Speaker 1: the film, and so what does it do? He goes

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Speaker 1: into their nobody. He can't get it out. It's gone.

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Speaker 1: The business is completely taken over by non creative people,

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Speaker 1: non creative people from top to bottom. It's marketing people

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Speaker 1: and finance people. They don't even like movies. These guys

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Speaker 1: aren't in the movie business. They'd like to just do

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Speaker 1: the money part, the producing part, and then have no

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Speaker 1: product at all and go on to the next raising

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Speaker 1: money for the next one. If they could be making

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Speaker 1: money doing something else would now when acting for you professionally?

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Speaker 1: Did you study somewhere? I left Middlebury where I was

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Speaker 1: at college, and came and study with Herbert burg Off

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Speaker 1: at the HBC and did a play with he and

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Speaker 1: Udah and Sandy Dennis. Then my father, Ruth was touring

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Speaker 1: my stepmother, Ruth Nelson was touring um long Day's Journey. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And they had played Pittsburgh. So they had gone to

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Speaker 1: Carnegie Tech. And my father really wanted me to have

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Speaker 1: an education, the one that he didn't have. So I

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Speaker 1: went there for about two and a half years. Left

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Speaker 1: that finished middle transferred, I've transferred to Carnegie Tech. And

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Speaker 1: then I didn't make it all the way through Carnegie

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Speaker 1: techither I crossed the disaster and but that's okay. Did

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Speaker 1: you come into New York to start your career? Uh? No,

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Speaker 1: I didn't. My father he had done a play at

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Speaker 1: Cleveland and got to know the man who ran Cleveland

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Speaker 1: kl molo and so he said, there's a wonderful opportunity.

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Speaker 1: You can go as a journeyman and act and stage manage,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to direct a play, he said, So

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Speaker 1: you can be my stage managed. So I started at Cleveland,

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Speaker 1: and then that summer after Kennedy was killed. Um that

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Speaker 1: summer I went to Europe with directors from all over

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Speaker 1: the world. Was the anniversary of Shakespeare's birth. So I

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Speaker 1: had all these incredible people who ran their companies and

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Speaker 1: you know in Slovenian, all these wonderful directors. And I

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Speaker 1: did that. And when I came back, he had cut

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Speaker 1: out a little squib from the New York Times that

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Speaker 1: a theater that was touring the South needed actors and directors.

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Speaker 1: And I he said to go down audition for which

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Speaker 1: I did, got the job. Arrived in New Orleans, met

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Speaker 1: by the head of the theater, taken to my place

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Speaker 1: where we're gonna stay in. On the side of the

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Speaker 1: of the next to the door was a plaque which

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Speaker 1: said coloreds only. And I thought, oh, it's a throwback

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Speaker 1: to the Civil War. Wh they must leave these things up.

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Speaker 1: Went up there. Nice black ladies showed us to our room.

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Speaker 1: We went out to a restaurant and promptly got thrown

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Speaker 1: out of the restaurant because John O'Neil, who was the

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Speaker 1: head of the theater, was black. Then I was white.

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Speaker 1: And guy came over and you're shaking and said, I

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Speaker 1: ask you to leave. My reaction is the Irish pardon

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Speaker 1: sol was to John said no, no, no, no, I'll

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Speaker 1: handle it and advise the guy that he was violating

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Speaker 1: our civil rights. And and that was my introduction to

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Speaker 1: a company that toured Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, and Georgia during

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Speaker 1: the height of the civil rights Shakespeare No Doing, Waiting

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Speaker 1: for Gotto and Pearley Victorious to opposite extremes to people

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Speaker 1: who had never seen television, never probably never seen a

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Speaker 1: movie four sixty four, and I was actually I had

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Speaker 1: gone to school with a guy um and I didn't

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Speaker 1: know he was there, Mickey Schwerner and that was Schwerner,

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Speaker 1: Cheney and Goodman. And we knew as we were in

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Speaker 1: Mississippi traveling around that Mickey was they were missing, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't know it was Mickey until much later. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And they hadn't been found in the levee they've been

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Speaker 1: buried in. So when in the early part of your career,

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Speaker 1: was there part of you that you said, oh, the

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Speaker 1: theater is more my calling and I didn't You didn't

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Speaker 1: really want to go out to Hollywood and try to

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Speaker 1: make films into TV shows. The theater was more your

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Speaker 1: you're licking. First of all, it was I was emotionally retarded.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to design sports cars. And I went

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Speaker 1: to Middlebury as a part of a three two program.

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Speaker 1: You went to r p I and you got both

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Speaker 1: degrees in engineering and engineering. And I wanted to design

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Speaker 1: sports cards. That was that. My father was making a

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Speaker 1: picture in Sweden within Mark Bergmann's my brit Nil Sineva Dolbeck,

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Speaker 1: and spend Niklas was the cameraman. And I went, I

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Speaker 1: was now eighteen, and I looked around. I looked at them,

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Speaker 1: and we went out to my Bert's house, and people

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Speaker 1: are articulate and attractive and loquacious, assisticated and sophisticated. And

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Speaker 1: I thought, ship man, this is I gotta do this.

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Speaker 1: I gotta do this. You know those people. So it

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Speaker 1: only took me about a month to get, you know,

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Speaker 1: frustrated with the theater department at Middlebury. Now that I

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Speaker 1: was and I knew anything. And then went to New

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Speaker 1: York and uh, and Herbert was. Herbert was actually very

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Speaker 1: really central to my I mean, for all his shenanigans,

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Speaker 1: I really loved him and adored uda. When you meet

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Speaker 1: with Herbert, what was your idea of what acting was

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Speaker 1: for you, Like what was your really because I have

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Speaker 1: my own story about that, but tell me, like when

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Speaker 1: you got there was it because you hear men sit

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Speaker 1: there and go I was gonna pick up girls. I

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Speaker 1: was gonna, you know, I was gonna. I think pick

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Speaker 1: up was the first. That was first. Women. My old

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Speaker 1: my oldest friend in this town is a Swiss actress

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Speaker 1: and she was the book. She ran the book, and

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Speaker 1: I thought she was the cat's pajamas and we've we've

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Speaker 1: been dearest friends lasting long time. What was like that

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Speaker 1: was magnificent, you know, um intense, um, implacable, brave, um smart.

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Speaker 1: I remember the last time I saw her. She was

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Speaker 1: doing a play. I went to see her off Broadway. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think it's called Mrs Klein, about a psychologist. And

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Speaker 1: I waited for her and she came out and I

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Speaker 1: started to talk to her and I wept. I wept.

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Speaker 1: I she meant so much. I did a TV series,

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Speaker 1: and I had to choose between a job that was

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Speaker 1: a very good job and a very challenging piece and

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Speaker 1: a great role for me early in my career, or

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Speaker 1: to do a TV series, which was a very successful

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Speaker 1: show that was nothing to be ashamed of. But the

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Speaker 1: real opportunity was I was going to play Julie Harris's son,

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Speaker 1: and I did that instead. For it, I passed on

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Speaker 1: what was the better role to spend a year and

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Speaker 1: a half with her and be around her, and oh

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Speaker 1: my god, I was not a copportunity of a life

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Speaker 1: wonderful another magic woman. But when you do your work

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Speaker 1: compared to them, I mean, how was that path change

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Speaker 1: for you as an actor? Well? I went to Tech

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Speaker 1: and I had a wonderful teacher the first year before

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Speaker 1: you got fired, which was basically, you know, an actor

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Speaker 1: prepares the method, um and UM. A lot of it

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Speaker 1: I got, I think subliminately through my father and mother,

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Speaker 1: watching my father and watching my mother stepmother, um, and

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Speaker 1: then actually doing for the ten years that I did

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Speaker 1: resident theater, not taking acting classes, but watching people making

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Speaker 1: your own mistakes, being out on stage. In terms of acting,

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Speaker 1: I think I learned. I learned a lot because John

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Speaker 1: Voyd brought Sandy Meisner's repeat exercise to Hollywood. He altered

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Speaker 1: it a little, and I did that class with Richard

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Speaker 1: and Jill Clayburg, Richard Dreyfuss and Joe Clayberg and a

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Speaker 1: lot of other people who were working, and I happen

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Speaker 1: to really love the repeat exercise, and the has great value,

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Speaker 1: and I love the fact that it's not taught by

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Speaker 1: a teacher. You know. Then of course I got a

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Speaker 1: magnificent the best teacher I've ever had. Milton could sell us.

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Speaker 1: Who was I just adored? Didn't tell me why why

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Speaker 1: did I love Milton could sell us? Because in his class.

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Speaker 1: I took his class for like maybe nine months, and

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Speaker 1: then I left, and I'll never have many memories of him.

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Speaker 1: One was I was working at the time doing a pickup.

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Speaker 1: I did a pilot and they picked up eight episodes

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Speaker 1: and we were shooting, and I missed some of the classes.

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Speaker 1: This is like an eighty three eighty four, you know,

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Speaker 1: And my then girlfriend was taking class when we go

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Speaker 1: to that Beverly Hills theater of his and we went

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Speaker 1: to I think I went to our Thursday nights or something.

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Speaker 1: So I go some night and this one guy gets

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Speaker 1: up and he does the scene and he and he's

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Speaker 1: pulled a chair down to get the comments from Conzellis,

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Speaker 1: and Conzellis begins, you know, what do you think and

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Speaker 1: what were going forward? Always with you you reflect back

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Speaker 1: and then he starts to say things, and the guy

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Speaker 1: starts to kind of debate him, and Conzellis with the

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Speaker 1: big Conzellis was a bear of a man and very

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Speaker 1: you know, very intense sky but it's nonetheless kind of

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Speaker 1: he really laid back and he said, he said, he said,

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Speaker 1: we're not here to debate my opinions with you. He said,

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Speaker 1: you pay the money, you come here. I give you

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Speaker 1: my opinions. That's why we're here for me to give

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Speaker 1: you my opinions. And and I'm sitting there going because

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Speaker 1: I had taken Strasbourg in New York for a year

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Speaker 1: and a half and studied privately with people in New York,

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Speaker 1: and and I'm there and I'll never forget this. I

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Speaker 1: did a scene from How I Got That story by

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Speaker 1: Emlyn Gray, where there was the person that was the press,

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Speaker 1: and then there was the person that they called the event.

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Speaker 1: And so the one guy is the reporter and the

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Speaker 1: other guy plays like thirty two different characters. You play

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Speaker 1: the Vietnamese dictator's wife. I did that in this class.

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Speaker 1: And he walks up to him. When he walks up

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Speaker 1: behind me, I don't even know he here works behind

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Speaker 1: me whip me was Gonzalas. And the only thing he

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Speaker 1: ever said to me the whole class he whispers and

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Speaker 1: he goes lose eight pounds. That's it, walked away. I

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Speaker 1: should tell me, Uh, I had done Hamlet. I produced

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Speaker 1: my own Hamlet because no one was in L A

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Speaker 1: and four, and I played it a little theater down

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Speaker 1: on Santa Monica Boulevard. Sometimes we had more people on

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Speaker 1: stage than we did in the audience. It was the

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Speaker 1: Olympic Theater Festival, so the RSC had come and they

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Speaker 1: were playing out in U c l A. No one

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Speaker 1: came to ours. But I had a had a very

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Speaker 1: interesting time, learned quite a bit um. And then subsequent

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Speaker 1: to that about it a couple of years. Any about

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Speaker 1: a year later, Milton did a Shakespeare class, uh, because

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Speaker 1: he was working on Romeo and Juliet, which I also

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Speaker 1: did with him, and I had was going to do

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Speaker 1: the Nunnery scene, and I had done it one time

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Speaker 1: for him and the class, and he said, um, you

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Speaker 1: don't know what this play is about. And I said, Milton,

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Speaker 1: I have done this place seven times. Don't don't tell

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Speaker 1: me that I don't know. He said, oh, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: you know what it is up here in your head?

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Speaker 1: You know an intellectually at this place is about, but

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Speaker 1: you don't know what it's what it is here in

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Speaker 1: your heart. I want you to do the do the

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Speaker 1: scene again. He came behind me and put his hands

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Speaker 1: on my head and squeezed as hard as he could

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Speaker 1: and said, now, say to be or not to be? Well.

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Speaker 1: I didn't have to get but two words out when

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Speaker 1: I understood what he was driving at the pressure. So

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Speaker 1: unfortunately I didn't get to rehearse in the intervening week.

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Speaker 1: So this the girl who was playing Ophelia, she just

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Speaker 1: thought that it would be the same. I went outside

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Speaker 1: to do push ups on my knuckles in the driveway

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Speaker 1: to get myself cranked up, and as I was doing it,

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Speaker 1: the door closed to the theater and locked. Now I'm

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Speaker 1: Hamlet is now locked out of the Nunnery scene. And

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Speaker 1: I realized that either I'm going to have to knock

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Speaker 1: on the door and somebody's gonna have to come and

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Speaker 1: let Hamlet in, which he might very well say, go

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Speaker 1: go let Hamlet in, or I'm gonna have to run

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Speaker 1: around the front like an idiot and come the wrong way.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, hear footsteps. It's Milton. I have

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Speaker 1: no idea how he knows. He just clicks the door open.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't say anything to me. I can hardly see him.

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Speaker 1: And I come on, now, I am so freak. You're

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Speaker 1: playing Jack now, Jesus, I was on and I everything

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Speaker 1: completely changed in the scene. She now pursued me. I

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Speaker 1: kept retreating until I finally hit her. I hit her

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Speaker 1: really hard in the face. Uh. And I finally got

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Speaker 1: what this scene was about. And that was that was Milton.

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Speaker 1: That was both what he had done showing me physically

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Speaker 1: what was involved, and then because I used an event

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Speaker 1: that was happening to me in real time, and I

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Speaker 1: laid the verse on top of that, which of course

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Speaker 1: is what the RC when they work with the Sonnets,

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Speaker 1: that's what they do. Um. So I learned, and I

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Speaker 1: gotta say I just wanted. One of the lessons that

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Speaker 1: I learned is something that you said. I remember seeing.

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Speaker 1: I think you did a master's class or you did

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Speaker 1: some class, and you were describing that when you came

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Speaker 1: to a there was a scene in which you had

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Speaker 1: to walk down a corridor. The director said, okay, so

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Speaker 1: I like, this is what you're gonna do. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: walk down this corridor, you're gonna reach you're gonna open

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Speaker 1: the door. You're gonna step into the room. You're going

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Speaker 1: to see her on the floor bleeding. You're gonna go

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Speaker 1: over to her. You're gonna get down, you're gonna pick

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Speaker 1: her up. I'm going to follow you with a steadicamp.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna hold her in your arms, and then you're

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Speaker 1: gonna you weep. And you said no, I'm not because

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Speaker 1: I know what's going to happen. I'm gonna go down.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get all cranked up to do this scene.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go down the hall. You're gonna open the door.

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Speaker 1: The camera's going to hit the side of the thing.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna yell cut. We're gonna do that three and

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Speaker 1: four times. By the time by the time I get

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Speaker 1: to pick her up, I'll have nothing left. This is

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Speaker 1: what you're gonna do. You're gonna take me down the hall.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna cut, You're gonna open the door, and you're

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Speaker 1: gonna cut. So in other words, being able, that's what

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Speaker 1: I can remember that from Heaven's Prisoners when they shot

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Speaker 1: my wife Kelly Lynch to pieces and I said, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna come in like a medium shot two cameras medium

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Speaker 1: and tied of me. When I scooper up and start crying.

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Speaker 1: If that's a separation, that's it, because you have to

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Speaker 1: protect yourself. And Milton's whole focus was on For those

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Speaker 1: who don't know Milton, it's he said, you don't have

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Speaker 1: an obligation to the play. You don't have an obligation

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Speaker 1: to the play right or the producer or whatever. You

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Speaker 1: have only one obligation that's to your own genius and

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Speaker 1: whatever that is, it has to be expressed. Nobody gives

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Speaker 1: a ship whether you feel whether your interpretation of this

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Speaker 1: play is really wonderful and you're trying to get at

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Speaker 1: If you're not at home, if you're not engaged, there's

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Speaker 1: no performance, there's nobody there. There's nobody to watch. That's

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Speaker 1: what I loved about it. Now we've spent the bulk

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Speaker 1: of this time talking about your working in the theater

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Speaker 1: and studying acting. We have other subject to cover. Now

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Speaker 1: I'm going to jerk the steering wheel. Now down this

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Speaker 1: other road stretch. Cunningham was your breakout role, and you

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Speaker 1: were doing film and TV before you did. That was

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Speaker 1: the first thing I was. Yeah, I had come. I

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Speaker 1: had gone to CBS because a guy had been at

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Speaker 1: Middlebury with Michael Severi. His father was Eric, Eric sever

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Speaker 1: right and and Eric Michael had been really great with me,

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Speaker 1: and he had introduced me to the woman who was

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Speaker 1: casting him producer director. No, no, I think he was

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Speaker 1: in the news department. I know what he actually what

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Speaker 1: he was doing as at CBS. Uh. So my agent

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Speaker 1: called me one day and said, get over to to

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Speaker 1: uh to uh CBS right away, uh and they got

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Speaker 1: the show. Uh. So I went over there. I had

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Speaker 1: never seen all in the family, and I read for

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Speaker 1: this woman who had interviewed me and found the only

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Speaker 1: I had sort of fudged on my resume that I

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Speaker 1: had played Claudius at Stratford. I did actually go on

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Speaker 1: as Claudius, but I was the understudy. She said, you

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Speaker 1: did Claudius at Stratford, and I've probably flushed. And so

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Speaker 1: she at four o'clock or five o'clock in the afternoon

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Speaker 1: on a Friday, I read for her. She says, fine, wait,

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Speaker 1: the director will be down. I read for the director.

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Speaker 1: The director said, come on, let's go up and meet Norman.

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Speaker 1: And the next day I'm doing Studge cutting him, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know what occurred to me. I think I

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Speaker 1: had in my head art Carney, Hey, come on, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm a off. So I guess I did that day

393
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Speaker 1: and and Norman loved it. And the first show I did,

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Speaker 1: Carol had quit and he was holding the show up,

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Speaker 1: and so he did eventually come back. He came back

396
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Speaker 1: because Norman said, what am I supposed to say to Gene?

397
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Speaker 1: She's half the show? And so we were actually rehearsing

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Speaker 1: the episode where he was found dead in Buffalo. He

399
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Speaker 1: and I had gone to Buffalo on a conference and

400
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Speaker 1: he settled, but I had all the best lines. And

401
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Speaker 1: my first time that I did at the Norman did

402
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Speaker 1: the warm up, you know, you sort of get the

403
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Speaker 1: audience going, and someone in the audience raised their hand

404
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: at the first intermission and said, what are you gonna

405
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Speaker 1: give the tall guy his own series? So on an

406
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Speaker 1: elevator ride down to rehearse that last bit with when

407
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Speaker 1: he finally settled some the producers said, you want to

408
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Speaker 1: do Hotel Baltimore? We got this series, so I now

409
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Speaker 1: I have another series. I have how How They'll Baltimore?

410
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Speaker 1: And I'm originating this part Dorman do that show. Yeah, yeah,

411
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Speaker 1: really wonderful people. You know, we got banned in four

412
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Speaker 1: or five cities because it was about there were there

413
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,880
Speaker 1: were horrors and gay people in it, based on the play,

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Speaker 1: based on the plate. Uh. But it was an extraordinary

415
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Speaker 1: Did you love Geane? Oh yeah absolutely, Oh absolutely, what

416
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 1: a great cast. Wonderful great because people don't realize people

417
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Speaker 1: who even remember Carol O'Connor don't remember movies. I can

418
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Speaker 1: play the villain and point blank he was such a

419
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Speaker 1: polished act, wonderful and he was such a such an

420
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Speaker 1: elegant guy and a very urbane guy and nothing like that.

421
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Speaker 1: I mean in real life, he was nothing like that

422
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Speaker 1: people tell me that he was. It was a part

423
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: of him that he was really sad he'd created that carocter.

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Speaker 1: He was. He was bereft because I saw him on

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Speaker 1: stage doing something when the audience said we want Archie

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Speaker 1: and you could see Chris. I'm stuck. Henry will Winkler

427
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: the same, I mean. And the thing is he saved

428
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: me from that because Norman wanted to keep me on

429
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: a stretch cunning him, but it didn't work out story wise,

430
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 1: and I would go back after a couple of years.

431
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 1: I went to Norman and I said, you know, I

432
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: really would like to do the show. And he said, Jamie,

433
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: I asked Carol for you to come back, and Carol no,

434
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 1: he says, no, I don't want him. And yeah, and

435
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there. I'm standing with Sally and Carol is

436
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: walking towards us, and Sally said, Carol, Jamie, Jamie wants

437
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: to come back on the show. And he went like this,

438
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: He's better off where he is, which meant that instead

439
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: of doing stretch cunning him for four or five years,

440
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 1: which would have finished me as an actor, I got

441
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: just enough and another than another series. So you felt

442
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: he was doing you a face. He wasn't. He knew exactly. Oh,

443
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: if this kid wants a career, the way to do

444
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 1: that is not get stuck into some character. Don't do

445
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: what I did. Actor and activist James Cromwell. Cromwell is

446
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: now respected as much for his environmental and animal rights

447
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: activism as for his Hollywood career. Similarly, a few people

448
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 1: have done as much to advocate for a more sustainable,

449
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: plant based food system. Has my guest Michael Pollen. We

450
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: all have power. We get three votes today, you know,

451
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: and people are voting in a different way for a

452
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: different kind of food system. I mean eating is a

453
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: political act. And um, those of us who can afford

454
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 1: to buy the sustainable chicken and beef or whatever, you know,

455
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: not everyone has the same vote. And that's unfortunate. And

456
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: that's why voting with your fork is not We also

457
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: need to vote with our votes, and we need new

458
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: policies without question. More from Michael Pollen now Here's the

459
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: Thing dot Org. After the break, James Cromwell talks about

460
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 1: his start in the movies and his experience in a

461
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: New York State prison. This is Alec Baldwin. You're listening

462
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing. It's James Cromwell is making a

463
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: living on stage and on TV. Now it's time to

464
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: try his hand in Hollywood. The first film I went

465
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: for was murdered by death Neil Simon and and I auditioned,

466
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: did a screen test and got the part. It's Maggie Smith,

467
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: David Niven, Alec Guinness, Elsa Anchester, Nancy Walker, Peter Faulk,

468
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: Peter Sellers. Everybody is in this thing, you know, and

469
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: we're eleven weeks in a studio altogether in every scene,

470
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: so I'm there every day with those people. Who did

471
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: you who were you fond of? Like people in my

472
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: own generation, there's something I like, you know. I worshiped

473
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: Daniel day Lewis, I worshiped Colin Farrell. It was like

474
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: three or four of them. I really really Gary Oldman.

475
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: I just worshiped them for their talent. So when you're

476
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: doing that film, who would you who did you have

477
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: a really vivid memory of somebody? Well, Alec was very

478
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: dear because Alec and they had a you know, a dad,

479
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: one of those press juncns you know before, and Alex said,

480
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: I'm really delighted to be working with two wonderful young

481
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: American actors, James Crumwell and Richard Narta, who played Peter Sellers.

482
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: He was Charlie chan number one son, and I played

483
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: Hair Cool Paro Jimmy Coco's so right away the press

484
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: wanted to know us, and and so Coco played a

485
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: k Alec was always very very supportive of me. I

486
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: didn't go to the house, but we met in London

487
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: a number of times. I adored him. David Niven my

488
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: father had given him his first job, so David was extraordinary.

489
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: I watched Truman Capodi, who who absolutely froze on camera,

490
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: but when he wasn't on camera, when he was sitting around,

491
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 1: there was a delight he could he could he could

492
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: charm the paint off the wall and get them to talk.

493
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: And I loved him. I was in love with Maggie Smith.

494
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: I couldn't take my eyes off her. Subsequently got to

495
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: know her pretty well. Um, So there was just a

496
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: really great Nancy Walker, very dear friend. Does everything become

497
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 1: from that point on? Because you talk about you're too

498
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: tall to play to be the leading man and you're

499
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 1: gonna play the character man? Does everything become character man

500
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: parts in the movies for the years to come? Well,

501
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,719
Speaker 1: there was a there was an event at the end

502
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: of the shooting. Ray wanted to publicize this film. He

503
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: wanted to get some some heat Ray Stark Stark, and

504
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: so he invited all the name people to a party

505
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: at his house, which was Humphrey Bogart's old house off

506
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: of Sunset, and did not invite Richard Narita and James Cromwell.

507
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,239
Speaker 1: So Eileen Brennan said, listen, Jamie, I'm gonna go and

508
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna drink, and I don't want to drive home,

509
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: So you drive me and we'll get there and and

510
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: and you'll be fine. You'll be there in the room

511
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: because it's going to be incredible. Everybody in Hollywood is

512
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: going to be there. So I said, fine, we got there.

513
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: We were early. Ray comes down and says, oh, Eilean,

514
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: nice to see you. Kisses your bad and turns to

515
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: me and goes Hi. Rays dark and he says, Ray,

516
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,479
Speaker 1: are you nuts? He's been on the picture eleven weeks.

517
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: Have you nuts? It's James Cromwell. He didn't want me

518
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: in the room. Now we have everybody in the room. Uh.

519
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: Sean Connery and Michael Caine had just done an episode

520
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: of Griffith Show. Yeah yeah, and Sean goes hates like

521
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: he's he's still fulming, and Michael loves it because he

522
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: loves to talk and tell stories. So he had a

523
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,479
Speaker 1: great time. So we all sit around and watch that.

524
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: But then they showed a rough cut of a scene

525
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: from the movie which was not either color corrected, it

526
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: had no track. Uh. And he showed he had Ray

527
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: had a picasso about the side, not as big as Guernica,

528
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: but almost, and it was on wires behind a high boy.

529
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: And when they wanted to show the picture. They dropped

530
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: the Picasso down but below the high boy. He had

531
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: the great one of those great art collections, you know

532
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: they had. They had a more in the in the

533
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: in the pool for the more, they had Jacometti, they

534
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: had art. They had everybody all on every wall and

535
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: they showed the picture and Maggie and Alec were so

536
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: Maggie said, I'm going to the bathroom. I'm not going

537
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: to see this. I don't want to see this. I

538
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: don't want to be here. Alec was livid Peter had

539
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: not come to the event. And so they showed this

540
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: picture and of course everybody laughed at the set up lines,

541
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: not the jokes, because they were laughing because they knew

542
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: they had to laugh. And it killed the picture. Basically,

543
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: they looked at it and those people, you know, Evans

544
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: and other people and said, he hasn't gone anything. That's nothing,

545
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: it's no comedy. It's it's too arched's too sophisticated. Nobody

546
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: will get it. And basically killed this picture. It's become

547
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: a cult classic. But um and then we stayed. We

548
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: stayed so long. Michael Caine Hackman, um, uh crowd, the crowd,

549
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: I lean me uh and Sean Connery stay so late

550
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: that the Stark sent a maid down to tells have

551
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: to leave, and on the way out, Sean says to oh,

552
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: Dustin often was there? Says to Dustin, Oh, you gotta

553
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: see my card? A great car. What's a wonderful card?

554
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: It's a magnificent So I'm thinking in my head, you're

555
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: Jesus kind a ferrarian Ashton Mark. It's wonderful. And we're

556
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: walk outside and on one side of the driveway is

557
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: Dustin's stretch Limo because they don't want him to drive home,

558
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: and on the other side is as an AMC pacer

559
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: remember those, Oh God, And he says, that's it, that's

560
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 1: my car. And then I watched he did it for

561
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: the same reason I'm watching Dustin Hoppins face. I think,

562
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: do I tell him that pears of shite? What am

563
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: I going to say? That was my only Hollywood party

564
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: and I loved the story. Then it's a change again

565
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: for you to play lead roles the until when I

566
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: think Ray was so piste off that I'd shown up

567
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: at that party and Jimmy Coco and I had got

568
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: gotten stoned and we stayed so late and that I

569
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: couldn't get arrested in for film. I didn't get another TV.

570
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: I did mostly, you know, thanks to Norman Norman shows.

571
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: I did almost all of Norman's shows, and then I

572
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: moved out. You know, I would start to do Bad

573
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: Guys and you know, one off Serian television series. Did

574
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 1: you have your own series? No? No, I said no, no,

575
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: never never started an US and never got and never touched.

576
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: And my agent then, would you know, send out and

577
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: they'd say, no, no, we know who he is. He's

578
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: a situation comedy actor. She'd said, no, no, he's does Shakespeare.

579
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: He's you know, he's done theater for ten And so

580
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: finally they sent me this silly script, you know, about

581
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: a kid's movie called Babe, and uh. And I looked

582
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: at the thing that was about I had about sixteen lines,

583
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: and I was I thought Jesus. And my friend said

584
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: to me, listen, it's a free trip to Australia. If

585
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: the picture goes on the toilet, it's not your picture,

586
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 1: it's the pigs picture. So so what the difference. So

587
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: I went and I'm gonna run the pick up the

588
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: flag pole, not you. And I said to myself, look

589
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: I don't have any responsibility in this. I'm playing next

590
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: to a pig. All I have to do is show

591
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: up and enjoy this and enjoy these people. I love

592
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: Australia and I love Australians. I just had a ball

593
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: a few run ins with George Miller, who I am

594
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: also very fond of. We're different people, different people question

595
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: the first christ Noon and the first one, which is

596
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: why the first one has as much heart as it does.

597
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: And George is a medical medical doctor, and he has

598
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: a focus. He has a vision, as you can tell

599
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: from the things that he does, and you can see

600
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,959
Speaker 1: what's inherent in that vision, that amount of edgy violence. Um,

601
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: you know, the the outsider. Uh. I think the world

602
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: is a tough place. The world is a really really

603
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: tough in a tough tough place. As opposed to to

604
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: Noonan's which is no, no, we all should embrace. We

605
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: have to embrace, we have to include people. We must.

606
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: That's right, fun, wonderful. So um, last scene I'm supposed

607
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: to at this contest, I'm supposed to, you know, say

608
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: a way to me, Pagan. The pig goes and gets

609
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: all the sheep and they go through this entire course,

610
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: with no, no, nothing from me, and they go right

611
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: I opened the gate. This only sound you hear the

612
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: creaking of the gate. The sheep go right past me.

613
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: I moved the gate like this. There's a click as

614
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: the latch falls. The pig was first take magnificent and

615
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: the animals to do it. That was sheep is almost

616
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: impossible to get them to walk in un which they did.

617
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: The next shot was I had to turn to the

618
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: pig and say, that'll do, Pig, that'll do. I said

619
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: to Chris, where do you want me to take it?

620
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: He said, let me take it right into the lens

621
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: and I said, okay. I had you know, all the

622
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: time that I had been doing the show, I had

623
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: never really actually looked at the makeup. So I do

624
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: the thing and I turned to the camera and I

625
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: look and it's not me, it's my father, and I say,

626
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: that'll do, Pig, that'll do. But what I heard in

627
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: my head was that'll do, Jamie, that'll do. And it

628
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:50,439
Speaker 1: was a gift from my father to me. I'm sure

629
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: he was there. Isn't it amazing how you do a

630
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: movie and you make you know, countless TV shows and

631
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: you do you you have the supporting parts in these

632
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: character parts and countless films and TV shows, and then

633
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: you made that movie. How old were you? They shot

634
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 1: you knocking around Holly for thirty years and you basically

635
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: grew up there and part of your life. And this

636
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: is the movie that just blows up. It blows up.

637
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: This is the movie when everybody sees you like that'll do.

638
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 1: Pig and my family we went around for all these years.

639
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: I mean maybe recently we stopped with my daughters older,

640
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: but might we might might might be ordering lunch with

641
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: my daughter said I'm gonna have uh, you know, a

642
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: salad with chickpeas and this, and I say anything else,

643
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: and she'd say, well, maybe I'll have a nice tea,

644
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: anything else else. Like the dog says the pit bull,

645
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: the evil pit bull, the tough pit bull. I mean

646
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: that sequence with the pig almost drowned in the moment.

647
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: Oh my god. We watched that movie a hundred times.

648
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: I've seen that movie a hundred I'm not exaggerating you.

649
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: You know you said that the one of the reasons

650
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: that I think I have the career, besides what Carol's

651
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: contribution was, was that the next film I did was

652
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: l a confidential, which was Curtis Hanson knew what he

653
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: was doing because he didn't want the audience. He didn't

654
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: want to tip the gag the turn at the end

655
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: when I killed Kevin and uh And I remember doing

656
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 1: that picture and I had no idea what how good

657
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: it was because I had a lot of problems with

658
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: Curtis Bliss his heart. We had a lot of fights,

659
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: and I fight with directors. Um And when you say fight,

660
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean I appreciate what you're saying because

661
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: I've had two experiences in my life. I didn't even

662
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: speak to the director during the making of the film.

663
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean with the conversation was to a minimum. You know,

664
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: they come up to me, and you know, I would

665
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: just stare at the ground and never make eye contact

666
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: with them. And I thought, you know, I thought they're

667
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 1: gonna hurt me because they want me to be their

668
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: unconscious mind. They don't know what they want they know,

669
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: So if they tell me that there's something they want

670
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: me to do that I don't agree with them, I'm out.

671
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: Or if they don't know what they want me to do,

672
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: I'm out because I'm like, I can't, you know, makeup.

673
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: So when you're with Hanson, what do you uh debate

674
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: with him? Well, Curtis really knew what he wanted, but

675
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: he was basically an editor. He didn't he didn't know

676
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: how to talk to actors, and he didn't know, you know,

677
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: what our methodology was. And so I came into the

678
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 1: rehearsals with a lot of ideas things that I wanted

679
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: to do, and basically got no and no explanation. You know,

680
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: can I do this? And I this is a makeup?

681
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: Can I have a cat? And then no, no, no,

682
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: I got so bad. I went to Milton, don't sit

683
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: take him on to lunch, you know, and tell him

684
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: what your problem is. I didn't wind up doing that,

685
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: and I remember that I know I've been nominated for Babe.

686
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: And then and Kevin had one. So we shot up.

687
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,439
Speaker 1: We we the rehearsal came. I would see Russell leave

688
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: the rehearsal like steam coming out of his ears, which

689
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: is normal. And then and then Kevin showed up and

690
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 1: he had a new Mercedes and he had a little

691
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: cell phone, the first cell phone, and an assistant because

692
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: he won the Academy Awards. And so we're sitting there

693
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: and uh, I'm so frustrated because everything I have suggested

694
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: has been no, and he's Kevin stops and says, the

695
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: line was rollo to Massi and that's all his line was,

696
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: and it had been changed to rollo Tamasi. He knows,

697
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: and you're left fucked. And he said, Curtis, listen, the

698
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: line is much better if it's just Rollo to Massi.

699
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: He knows, and your fun is. I've heard that line

700
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: a hundred times and anyway, the audience's way and I thought,

701
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: oh boy, now now we're going to see. Now the

702
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: Academy Award winner is now confronting him. Maybe he'll have

703
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: more weight instead of a nominee. Curtis got up out

704
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: of his seat, walked around the table, stood behind Kevin

705
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: so Kevin could not see him, and said, Kevin, I

706
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: want to say the line the way was written. Kevin said, listen,

707
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 1: that's your picture. I'm just telling you from my point

708
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: of view, it's much better than way. So we got

709
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: to the table read just before we shot, and the

710
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: line was still roll out Tomasa. He knows. In your

711
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: fun I said to him, what are you gonna do?

712
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: He said, I'm not going to say it. He said,

713
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 1: I've been doing this for fifty years. No one's ever

714
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: said no. You don't say no. You say we'll do

715
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: it both ways. Do it your way, We'll do it

716
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: my way. In edit, let me choose so we can

717
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: finally get to the scene. In the meantime, during the

718
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: whole picture I have asked for and all it's been

719
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: is no everything, no explanation. Finally he my best scene

720
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: with Russell. I had a wonderful speech. He came to

721
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 1: me in the middle speech and the middle of the shooting,

722
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: said Jamie, I want to cut that speech, and I thought,

723
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: I can't get out of this. So I said, oh, oh,

724
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Curtis. I don't think I can do it

725
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: without I need that transition in order to get and

726
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: he remember him looking at me like, you idiot, I

727
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: can cut it out and post your jerk. You want

728
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: to take time now to do a piece, I'm going

729
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: to cut out. So so at the you know, I

730
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: have the gun. I turned around to Kevin. I shoot him.

731
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,439
Speaker 1: I say, have you a benediction boil and he goes

732
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: rollo Tomassi and dies. I think what's gonna happen? Sure enough,

733
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: Curtis comes down the hall says Kevin, I want you

734
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: to see the line the way it was written. Kevin

735
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: goes m. So I turned around, shoot him again, have

736
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: you been addiction? Boil? Rollo Tomassi? And he dies. He

737
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: was going to die every time. Now Curtis realized that

738
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 1: too and and instantly said, Okay, it's fine. I got it.

739
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: I don't need that. I don't need the line. So

740
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: I think, oh, now I know what to do. He persists.

741
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 1: So I get to the last scene where I shoot

742
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: Guy Pierce and Guy says Rolo Tomassi, and my line

743
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: is who is he? But I know that my character

744
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: has already done a complete search in Los Angeles there

745
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: is no such guy. So I've changed it to what

746
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: about him? Guy pierces, Oh, that's great, and you're gonna

747
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: say that. I said, yeah, I'm gonna say it. So

748
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: I say it and rehearse. Dante Spinette is setting up

749
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: the lighting the scene and I'm standing outside by the

750
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: car and Curtis comes up to me and says, Jamie,

751
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: I want to say the line the way it was written,

752
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: but instead of doing Kevin, I said you, I scream.

753
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: I'm screaming, I'm kicking dirt at him. I punched the

754
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: car and he just stands there like, if you quit,

755
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: you ask whole, you will never work in this town again.

756
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: We will suondicated like actress. No, he knew something that

757
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: I didn't know, which was he knew at that point

758
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: that the audience was already passed it, that it really

759
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 1: didn't matter what the line was. When I so first

760
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: saw it the first time, the audience as a whole

761
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: had an intake of breath when I shot him, like

762
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: the guy from Babe shot him. So the director, he

763
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: had a vision, he knew what he wanted. He was

764
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: right about the gag. He was right and saying no

765
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 1: to me all through the picture. So it worked. Now

766
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: I want to get to this last such because we're

767
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: running of time here, which is you've been active in

768
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: a lot of environmental causes and animal rights causes. You

769
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: work with Peter. I've worked with Peter. When did all

770
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 1: that begin for you? Um got back from Babe first thing? Yeah,

771
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: and Peter calls up and says, listen, would you do

772
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: the narration on this thing about four h pigs in

773
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 1: the Midwest and what happens to them over the summer

774
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: when the kids are not watching? I said, yes, I

775
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: didn't know the organization at all and did that, and

776
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: then they start to ask for more. You know, would

777
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: you do a slaughter house? One? And England and Dan

778
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: Matthews got you the best, the best, adore I adore them.

779
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 1: I adore the organization. I think it's the best. Um.

780
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: So I got involved in that and then um mostly

781
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: animal rights work, and then came east and got involved

782
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: in this, you know, energy work. I've been working on that.

783
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: Now we're trying to stop this pipe pine. We got

784
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 1: arrested and we you know, we went to four basically

785
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: not paying the fine for blocking traffic. We refused to

786
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: play the fine and do community service. I said, no, stupid,

787
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,919
Speaker 1: I'm not going to justify your crappy opinion. How long?

788
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: Only four days? Only four days was supposed to be

789
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: a week. The reason it's only four days was they

790
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: you know, you're three days in quarantine because you get

791
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 1: a test for drug resistance suberculosis, and once you pass

792
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: that test, then you're going to the general population. But

793
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: the organizing factor in these prisons is rape. So the

794
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: first thing they say to you when you get in

795
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: there and you're doing your your you're asked questions by

796
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: a guy who's sitting up there, and he said, are

797
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: you afraid of being raped while you're being here? And

798
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: I said, I joked, I said, not unless they're a

799
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: lot hornier than I think they are. He didn't laugh.

800
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: Then he said, are you afraid that you will rape someone? No,

801
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think. Wait minute, he's talking to a

802
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 1: seventies seven year old man. Then I got in there

803
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: and I unders began to understand what that is. If

804
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: you do not want to be raped, you have to

805
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: rape in order to establish your bona fides with the

806
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: rest of the inmate population. It's through violence. You can't

807
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 1: beat somebody up because you get extra time. But raping

808
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: happens so quick in the bathroom wherever. Then it happens

809
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: all the time. Oh oh, it's indemn every day, every day.

810
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: And it's not only it's not only the cons that

811
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: do it, it's the guards that do it. They do

812
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: it too. They rape the inmates, both male and female.

813
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: So I saw this. I saw this, this continuation of

814
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: the violence that mostly people of color experience experience on

815
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: in their communities. And it is completely and utterly unjust, undemocratic, unethical,

816
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: it's poison It poisons, the community deprives us of the

817
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: count Absolutely well, you are, you know, among the most

818
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: admired actors and activists at the same time, and the

819
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: business people just are. So your dad was this prominent

820
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: film and director, or your mom and actress, and you

821
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: go through the TV and then you have a family,

822
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: then you do babe, and you get nominated for an

823
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: Academy Award, and it all leads to you going to prison,

824
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: and we're gonna get you right there before they knock

825
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: your teeth out and rape you. That'll do, Jamie, Sorry,

826
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: that'll do. James Cromwell's remarkable life in Hollywood and in

827
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: the streets. This is Alec Baldwin you're listening to. Here's

828
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: the thing.