WEBVTT - You Used to Smile 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:12.320 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. People 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:18.120 don't just happen. We sacrifice former versions of ourselves. We 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:22.479 sacrifice the people who dared to raise us. The eye, 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:26.320 it seems, doesn't exist until we are able to say 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:31.720 I am no longer yours. My grandmother and I, without 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.960 knowing it, we're faithfully following a script that had already 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:39.720 been written for us. A woman raises a boy into 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.839 a man, loving him so intensely that her commitment finally 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:50.159 repulses him. Silent beside my grandmother on the same twenty 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:54.280 minute drive we'd taken so many times that summer. I 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:58.440 could feel the distance growing, but didn't understand it yet 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.920 instead had a sense of certainty to group in me. 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.640 I made myself a promise, even if it meant becoming 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.400 a stranger to my loved ones, even if it meant 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.839 keeping secrets, I would have a life of my own. 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:25.760 That's say Jones, reading from his extraordinary memoir How We 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:30.000 Fight for Our Lives. Said is a story of love 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:35.199 and the unspoken, courage and shame, a mother and a son, 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:39.440 and a long hard road to becoming who we really are. 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:59.040 I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:01.640 that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:10.600 and the secrets we keep from ourselves. Describe for me 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.920 the landscape of your childhood. The landscape of my childhood 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:19.440 was really mostly the suburbs of North Texas. I grew 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:25.160 up about fifteen minutes north of Dallas, Texas, and so 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:30.800 that very kind of sprawling North Texas plane landscape that 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.520 was it. And I literally lived off of Main Street, 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.760 and I remember having a sense of feeling like, oh, 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.560 I'm in the heart of suburban Americana. But we were 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:45.360 like off Main Street in an apartment complex, you know, 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.200 So it wasn't like, it wasn't quite like that ideal. 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.120 And then otherwise, an important part of the landscape of 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.320 growing up was Memphis, Tennessee, where both sides of my 0:02:55.400 --> 0:03:00.200 family actually are from generations and generations and generations act 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:04.000 and so I grew up with a really strong relationship 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:09.840 to both of those different southern landscapes. Can you describe 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.720 your mother, Well, one thing is she she raised me 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:16.960 as a single parent. She did not graduate from college. 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.600 She you know, studied for a few semesters in Memphis, 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.880 kept her books which later became really important for me 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.480 because I grew up in a house full of books 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.280 and in a house with a lifelong reader. She read 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:31.600 like three newspapers a day. She had literally like a 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.320 second purse that she would like shove all of her 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.320 newspapers in to carry around with her throughout the day. 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:40.440 Then she was always reading. You know, there was a 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:42.240 lot of particularly in the nineties, like it was a 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:46.440 really booming moment of black contemporary fiction. This is when 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:52.120 Alice Walker, Terry McMillan, Gloria Naylor, Tony Morrison are all 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:56.800 bestselling authors. So I grew up in a home rich 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.840 with that kind of tradition because of her. And then 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.360 one thing else I think that was really cool about 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.480 my mom, aside from her biddy and her humor, is 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.720 that she had the sense of the world. She worked 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:10.920 as a flight attendant for a long time when I 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:15.200 was younger, and actually worked for the airlines my entire life, 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.520 and so she had traveled a lot. She was always 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.960 in different capacities over the course of her career, just 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:25.200 interacting with a lot of different kind of people, which 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:31.039 meant that she brought that worldly nous, this appreciation for 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:36.400 diversity and otherness into our home. And and so even 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.440 though we were growing up, we were living in you know, 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:44.880 two bedroom apartment, paycheck to paycheck, often eviction notices on 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.880 the counter. We were always discussing the news. We had 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.919 a sense an appreciation of culture and of art, and 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.840 you know, we were trying different cuisine. She was always 0:04:55.839 --> 0:05:00.599 studying different recipes from different cultures. Um, so you know, 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.840 we would have Indian currie one night for dinner, and 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.080 then maybe a Pope pie the next and then she'd 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.480 be making like Mexican fajitas. So there was just a 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.120 richness to her that she always brought home and I 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.520 loved And I guess the last thing I would say, 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.839 we laughed a lot. My mom was very funny, and 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.279 I would like to think that I got some of 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:25.760 my humor from her. Well, and you have a great laugh, 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:31.560 So I thank you. Do you think that that worldliness 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.520 and that sense of you know, sort of connection to 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:40.640 the wider world contributed to a sense of stability and 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.400 security even though there was this paycheck to paycheck, you know, 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.640 eviction notices on the kitchen counter kind of existence. I 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:52.400 think so. I think, you know, as a kid who 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.680 in my teens was coming into an understanding of my 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.520 sexuality as a gay man, for example, or you know, 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.680 my love of arts, which my mom always supported. She 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.159 was always just like she loved that I was drawing 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:07.880 and writing and reading, and you know, always encouraged that 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.440 part of my life. I think culture, I guess I 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:13.960 would say it was like a tether for me. It 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:18.040 was kind of like even amidst the instability or the stress, 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:23.640 being working poor is stressful, it's exhausting even on good days. 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.360 But I think having a sense of there's this world 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.240 out there that we are connected to, either to our 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:35.720 appreciation or by how I'm starting to write myself, I 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.880 think it gave me a sense of hope, and it 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:44.400 added dignity to our lives, you know, to our conversations, 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:47.600 because we have so much to talk about beyond just 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:55.400 the rigors of living paycheck to paycheck. It's a beautiful word, dignity. 0:06:56.040 --> 0:07:01.919 And along with this dignity came a careful economy of speech, said, 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.400 and his mom talked about a lot of things, beautiful things, 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.120 but there were places that it seemed they just couldn't go. 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.640 This way of talking or not talking was a family condition. 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:19.280 There was code on phone calls, if someone paused and said, well, 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.440 it was good to hear your voice. That signaled the 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:26.200 end of the conversation when said is twelve or thirteen. 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.400 He comes across a photograph of a young man wedged 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:33.120 into a copy of James Baldwin's Another Country. He had 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.360 never seen the man before, and he asks his mother 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:41.040 about him. It was kind of like the bookmark, which 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:42.840 I do the same thing, you kind of like shove, 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.280 you know, a photo or sheet from a notebook in 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.400 a book. It was like this young man who I 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:52.280 did not recognize, and it was dated like Jackson, Mississippi, 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:54.080 with a date in the eighties, And I was like, 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:57.760 is he uncle? Like who is this person? And I 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:01.400 eventually asked her about it and found out that it 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:03.960 was like this best friend of hers who she had 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:08.360 never mentioned. And this was kind of the rub for 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:12.240 our relationship, you know, amongst all of the richness and 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.320 the laughter and the warmth, there would be these moments 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:17.560 where all of a sudden, her language was like as 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:22.520 efficient as possible. So she was like, oh, you know, 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.200 we were really good friends. We would go on road trips. 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:30.680 Then he found out he was sick and he died. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.400 He killed himself and then she walked out of the room, 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.640 and I was like what, And I think I shouted 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.319 out maybe one more question because I didn't understand. I 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.280 couldn't fathom as I would think. I was like twelve 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.200 or thirteen, like what being sick had to do with 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.480 killing oneself? Why would you do that? And she was 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.679 like he had aids and she walked out. And that 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:56.560 ended up being the first vivid memory I have of 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:01.800 us implicitly talking about sexuality. He was a gay man 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.880 who she a gay black man who she loved very 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:10.200 very much and lost. And the way kids, you know, 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.000 kind of unwittingly get to the hard questions. They don't 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.440 know what they're doing, they're just digging around and their 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.880 parents stuff. That's very much what happened. It's such a 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.920 theme on this podcast. In almost every episode, there's snooping 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.400 of some kind or another, just this sense of what 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.800 are the adults up to? And you know, what are 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.960 their secrets and what are their lives? You use the 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.600 phrase economy of language or economy of speech. And when 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.280 your mother didn't want to speak, she just didn't and 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.680 she would pause for a really long time and you'd 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:48.559 have to wait her out or think maybe she's done speaking, 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.719 and then she would say something more right. Could you 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:56.480 talk a little bit about the role of religion. It's 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:58.679 fascinated by the fact that your mother was a Buddhist 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:04.840 and that your grandmother, her mother was a Baptist who 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:09.120 later joined in an evangelical church, and sort of what 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.760 the role of all that was for you in these 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.240 years where you were you were coming out to yourself, 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.959 but you were not coming out to anyone around you, 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.000 not too friends, certainly, not to your mother, certainly, not 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.839 to your grandmother. Can you talk us through that period 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.240 of time? Yeah, I mean, you know, really, you know, 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.720 when you asked about kind of the landscape of my upbringing, 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:35.320 I would say, also, you know, it was kind of 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.320 helpful to think of the kind of the calendar of 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:41.040 my childhood, which is to say, because my mom was 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.840 a single parent raising me when I was not in 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.840 school for winter break and summer break, it was normal 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.839 for her to send me to Memphis to stay with 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:56.400 her mother, my grandmother, because it's expensive raising boys. Boys 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.520 are taking through all of your things, asking you tough questions, 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.280 you know, getting into trouble, eating all of your food, 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:06.559 and so that was a really kind of important, I 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.480 don't know, kind of time relationship that we had because 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.760 my mother and her twenties before I was born, started 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.960 practicing nature and Buddhism. She chanted namniah inge K. She 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:24.319 was very devout, very passionate about nature and Buddhist philosophy. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.480 And I would argue she was as dedicated to her 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:32.160 faith as the rest of my family was to their 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.240 Christian faiths at different times. I mean, there were Catholic members, 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:39.640 they were Baptist and Evangelical, you know, but everyone was very, 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:41.840 very passionate. I felt like often when I was growing 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.520 up the only person who was ambivalent about religion, and 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:50.120 I still am, probably because twice a year I was 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:54.080 kind of being shuttled back and forth between these two 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:58.760 really intense religious philosophies. And so it was like when 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.160 I was home with mom Um in Texas, I would 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.080 participate and do all kinds of nature and Buddhist activities, 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:06.599 and that was just a part of our lives. I 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:08.920 would chant with her in the mornings and evenings, and 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:11.520 then in the winter or summer, when I was with 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.400 my grandmother, I would go to church. I was baptized, 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.320 you know, at one point, I would go to whatever 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.320 the like, the Christian Bible camp, all of those different things. 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:29.400 When my grandmother started going to a white, suburban Evangelical church, 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:31.840 and that was very different. She until that moment been 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:35.599 going to mostly black Baptist church. She started going to 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:37.800 the church, you know, right basically at the beginning of 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.880 high school for me, and it just felt like the 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:45.840 kind of standard back and forth dysfunctional, but no one's 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:50.520 talking about it. It's fine kind of relationship we'd all 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:55.040 developed over the years regarding faith and how to live. 0:12:55.960 --> 0:13:01.000 I think because I was entering puberty and becoming a teenager, 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.960 starting to talk back and frankly starting to become more 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.720 self aware about my feelings for boys, starting to stow away. 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.200 Calvin Klein adds, you know that, like my grandmother finds 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.719 at one point in my stuff at her house. It 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:17.640 just made it it almost like a do or die 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:21.559 moment for my grandmother, where I think she felt, this 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.000 is where I have to take my stand. I have 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.959 to save my grandson. I've already lost my daughter. I 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:31.400 very much feel as her perspective at that time, all 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.840 of a sudden, we were going to church four times 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.800 a week, five times a week and it ends within 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:41.920 a really heartbreaking kind of moment where my grandmother asked 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:46.559 a visiting pastor to pray over me, basically to save me, 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.080 you know, the sins of my mother. And it was 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:54.360 it was awful. What kinds of things does the pastor 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.199 say in that moment? I refrained that my grandmother had 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.560 when introducing me to people at this new church, was 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.960 this is my grandson's side. He's visiting from Texas. His 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:09.800 mother was Buddhist. That was that was my introduction to 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.240 countless people at this church. And of course, you know 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:17.160 for teenagers, that's just uncomfortable anyway, right, But yeah, that 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.120 has just kind of gone on and gone on and 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.480 gone on, and it felt like everyone was making me 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:25.360 their little pet Christian project in this church, being really 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.040 nice and supportive. And then at the end of the summer, 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.040 I think perhaps because my grandmother was aware that I 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.520 was getting ready to go home and we've been having 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.160 a lot of arguments, she decided at the end of 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.360 a church service to actually take me to the front 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:39.960 of the church when they say, you know, the doors 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.160 of the church are open if if anyone would like 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.760 to join the church, you're welcome. To do. So it's 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:49.760 supposed to be voluntary. The ideas, you know, if if 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.000 you are so inspired, you know, you are welcome to 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.120 walk up to the front of the church and kind 0:14:55.120 --> 0:15:00.280 of have this moment. What happened is my grandmother took 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.000 me by the hand, and I was so stunned. She 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:05.040 didn't really have to drag me. She just kind of 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:06.800 led me to the front of the church, and I 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.239 just felt like I was having an out of body experience. 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.280 And the next thing I know, you know, I realized 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.960 this man, this pastor, has been talking for several minutes 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.240 because I was just like, what's going on, And I 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.760 just realized she said, this is my grandson. Said he's 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:26.040 from Texas. His mother's Buddhist, and he basically put a 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.320 curse on my mother. I've heard a lot of prayers 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.800 since then, and and and before then. You know, I 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.840 know what a hopeful prayer sounds like. This wasn't it. 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:40.480 He was basically praying for my mother to suffer and 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:44.160 get sick and forgot to put all kinds of ailments 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.920 very much like basically show her, you know, your seven plagues, 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.720 so that she will see the light and come back 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.800 to the church. And bring her son with her, and 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.120 it was it was stunning. I mean, I I remember 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:00.760 how I felt. I remember bird that I felt like 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.000 I was frankly about to pass out, you know, because 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.040 the entire time that he's saying these really awful things, 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.240 things I wouldn't wish upon, frankly my worst enemy, with 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.240 a few exceptions. Um, I realized, you know, like my 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:20.400 mom's mom is holding my hand. And I'm not a parent, 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.920 but I think it's fair to say, generally, if someone 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.080 were to talk about your child, you know, and certainly 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:32.240 your grandchild in this way, you know, you would be upset, 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.600 you would be offended, you would stand up and instead, 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.400 you know, I just was looking at my grandmother with 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.360 her head bowed, and it was just we were just 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:46.200 in two totally different realities, and you were just did 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.240 the Matthew were fourteen at this point, Yeah, I believe. So. 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:56.000 Imagine being fourteen years old and your grandmother is holding 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:58.960 your hand as a pastor places what amounts to a 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:04.760 curse her daughter, your own mother. And what's worse, if 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.560 anything in this situation can possibly be worse, is that 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:16.200 Sayid's mother has a serious heart condition. The pastor who 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.560 was saying that didn't know about but my grandmother did. 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:23.000 But my sense of right and wrong in that moment 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:25.440 it was pretty clear. You know. I was like, this 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:30.120 is wrong. This is not even for people who followed 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.520 the Christian faith. I don't think that's what they want, 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.400 you know, And so I remember feeling like, gosh, this 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:42.959 is warped, this is toxic. I just felt really sad 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.520 for myself, but also for my grandmother because I think 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:50.520 though I didn't understand the depths of it, I did 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.600 feel in that moment like there's no coming back from 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.080 a moment like this for us. And it's also occurring 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.680 to me that this pastor and his curse and your 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.040 your grandmother's acceptance of all that is about your mother 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.399 being a Buddhist, you are at this point, at the 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:11.159 age of fourteen, carrying something much deeper and closer to 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:15.959 your identity that would be problematic in that world, in 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:20.040 the evangelical Christian world. Absolutely it felt yeah, And and 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:23.000 it's like, you know, and to think about secrets. I 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:27.119 think that nuance your pointing too, is distinctly Southern. My 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.560 grandmother at that point knew that I had a crush 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:34.639 on boys before she submits Said to the pastor. Sayd's 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.040 grandmother had found a cutout page from a magazine, a 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.240 Calvin Klein ad featuring Mark Wahlberg when she was going 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:45.760 through Said's things. So she slaps him, hits him hard, 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.879 calls him worldly more a code, but she doesn't speak 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:56.320 to him directly about his sexuality. I think grandmother's often 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.400 end up kind of surveilling and policing gender for boys 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.399 and girls that they're raising, you know. So it was 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.159 always like act like a boy, don't be a sissy, 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.680 don't stand like that, don't own your hand like that. 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:10.959 She knew. And so I think the fact that in 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.160 this moment she takes me to the front of the church, 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.840 she did not say I'm worried my grandson might be 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:22.960 gay or whatever, I think it speaks to how deeply 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.879 shameful homophobia and queerness in that space is embedded, you 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.560 know that, because to me, it feels like that's really 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:35.680 what was going on. That's clearly what she was worried 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:40.320 about for me, but it felt like that was too 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.520 too barbed to even speak in the church. So it 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.040 almost feels like my mom and my mother's faith becomes 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:54.520 the well the sacrificial lamp. We'll be back in a 0:19:54.560 --> 0:20:05.479 moment with more family secrets. Said is now in high school. 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.800 One day, his class is let out early because the 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.240 drama department is putting on a production of The Laramie Project, 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:15.640 a theater piece based on the murder of Matthew Shepard. 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.720 It's all said can do to hold himself together. He 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:23.840 doesn't want anyone to see him cry. He remains closeted 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.919 through high school and then wins a fellowship for speech 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:31.879 and debate at Western Kentucky University and initially remains closeted 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.879 there as well. He refers to this in his book 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:40.159 as his second closeting, writing it shouldn't have been that 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:46.960 easy to unbecome myself, I mean to me, so much 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:50.399 of your story is about unbecoming and the cost and 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.720 the price of unbecoming and becoming and this kind of 0:20:53.800 --> 0:21:01.240 dance between those two states. Yeah. One myth that heterosexual 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:04.800 people have about the closet, and of course there are 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.760 all kinds of cultural closets, but one myth is that 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.840 it's like queer people come out once and that's it, 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:14.280 you know, like we just like we we send a 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.560 flare into the air and everyone's like, Okay, Side's gay, 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:19.800 and then that's it for the rest of sides life. 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:22.680 And of course that's not the case. Every time we 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:26.760 start a new job, every time we step into a bar, 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:31.359 you know, every time we meet a new doctor or nurse, 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.240 you know, and they're going over our sexual history. All 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:38.000 of those kinds of moments we are having to negotiate. 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.639 We're having to decide is it safe for me to share, 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:43.880 Do I need to share, should I you know, or 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:48.320 I'm absolutely going to share. And it's fluid, and it's 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:52.919 based on the space we're in, how safe we feel, 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:56.080 if it feels relevant, if we have the energy to 0:21:56.240 --> 0:22:00.639 do so. And that was not something I understand stood 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:05.000 as a young man coming into my sexual identity. So 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.680 when I got to college, for example, you see, and 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:09.600 it's like literally in the first day, I mean, I'm like, 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:12.080 after years of being like I can't wait to get 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:14.439 away from home and go to school and I'm just 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:18.920 gonna finally be myself because surely the only issue I'm 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:23.480 struggling with here is my family. I step onto this 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:28.800 college campus and it's like, within like five hellos, I've 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:31.800 stepped right back into the closet I've taken on this 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.399 new persona. I'm trying to act like one of the 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:37.240 jocks from my high school who never would have so 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:39.159 much have sat with me at the cafeteria at One 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:41.600 Word school, But that was the persona I was like 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:46.040 trying to embrace during my first year experience that weird 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.720 orientation week, you know college students have. I mean, one 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.520 thing I'm thinking about is you're speaking, is the poignancy 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.879 or the pain of performing a persona like in that 0:22:55.960 --> 0:23:00.760 first week to be accepted and then to be accepted. 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:05.680 But you're not being accepted as yourself right. The goal 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:09.760 is simply to be accepted, and you're leaving you know, 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:13.760 one is leaving oneself kind of in the dust. Absolutely, 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:18.720 you find a group of friends pretty quickly where you 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:25.000 feel safe and comfortable being yourself. M hm. I mean, 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:27.359 I'm just thinking about safety because as you're growing up 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:30.359 to feeling that it is not safe to be gay, 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:32.080 it is not safe to be black, and it is 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:35.040 really not safe to be a black gay man, and 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:38.200 then you get to this place where it almost seems 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:42.600 like you're just like fuck that. Your Twitter and Instagram 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:47.240 handle is the ferocity and there's this moment in your 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:52.080 book about halfway through where you describe as a ferocity 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:56.160 you know with which you are going to be your 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:00.280 most authentic self. Thank you for catching that detailized sure 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.719 that little easter um. You know, you go to your 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:07.600 first few college parties, the first few times you you know, 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:11.000 have like the messy hook ups, and and you're in 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:15.440 a mixed group of students your age, older students, and 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:18.520 you get to kiss a boy and plain sight of 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:22.000 all of those different people, and no one cares because 0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:24.320 they're making out with whoever they're making out. They're nodding 0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:27.040 as you're like, oh, you found someone, you know, and 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.639 that's all that matters. You found someone. It's been on 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:33.000 my mind so much because, of course, with the pandemic, 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:37.280 there are still college students who were very much looking 0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:40.399 forward to getting to have those kinds of experiences. And 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:44.280 I understand, and certainly we need to socially distance and 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:47.760 those parties should not be happening right now. They're not healthy, 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:50.280 it's not good, it's not worth it. But also I 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:54.000 do want to honor that ache I've been thinking about 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:57.320 of queer young people who are looking for those kinds 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:01.240 of spaces. Who were so king forward to those kinds 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:06.320 of moments, And if you don't need them, you don't 0:25:06.440 --> 0:25:09.920 understand how important it can be to have a night 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:12.720 like that. You know what I mean, to dance and 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:16.359 swing and mess your way into yourself, and that is 0:25:16.600 --> 0:25:19.240 that is an important part of learning who we are 0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:23.280 as young people in particular, right, the fun, the joy, 0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:29.840 particularly after years of self policing, you know, a bullying 0:25:30.480 --> 0:25:35.199