1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. People 2 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: don't just happen. We sacrifice former versions of ourselves. We 3 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 1: sacrifice the people who dared to raise us. The eye, 4 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: it seems, doesn't exist until we are able to say 5 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: I am no longer yours. My grandmother and I, without 6 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: knowing it, we're faithfully following a script that had already 7 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: been written for us. A woman raises a boy into 8 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: a man, loving him so intensely that her commitment finally 9 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: repulses him. Silent beside my grandmother on the same twenty 10 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: minute drive we'd taken so many times that summer. I 11 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: could feel the distance growing, but didn't understand it yet 12 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: instead had a sense of certainty to group in me. 13 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: I made myself a promise, even if it meant becoming 14 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: a stranger to my loved ones, even if it meant 15 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: keeping secrets, I would have a life of my own. 16 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: That's say Jones, reading from his extraordinary memoir How We 17 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: Fight for Our Lives. Said is a story of love 18 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 1: and the unspoken, courage and shame, a mother and a son, 19 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: and a long hard road to becoming who we really are. 20 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets 21 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 22 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. Describe for me 23 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: the landscape of your childhood. The landscape of my childhood 24 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: was really mostly the suburbs of North Texas. I grew 25 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: up about fifteen minutes north of Dallas, Texas, and so 26 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: that very kind of sprawling North Texas plane landscape that 27 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: was it. And I literally lived off of Main Street, 28 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: and I remember having a sense of feeling like, oh, 29 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: I'm in the heart of suburban Americana. But we were 30 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: like off Main Street in an apartment complex, you know, 31 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: So it wasn't like, it wasn't quite like that ideal. 32 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: And then otherwise, an important part of the landscape of 33 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: growing up was Memphis, Tennessee, where both sides of my 34 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: family actually are from generations and generations and generations act 35 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: and so I grew up with a really strong relationship 36 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: to both of those different southern landscapes. Can you describe 37 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: your mother, Well, one thing is she she raised me 38 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: as a single parent. She did not graduate from college. 39 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: She you know, studied for a few semesters in Memphis, 40 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: kept her books which later became really important for me 41 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: because I grew up in a house full of books 42 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: and in a house with a lifelong reader. She read 43 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: like three newspapers a day. She had literally like a 44 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: second purse that she would like shove all of her 45 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: newspapers in to carry around with her throughout the day. 46 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: Then she was always reading. You know, there was a 47 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: lot of particularly in the nineties, like it was a 48 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: really booming moment of black contemporary fiction. This is when 49 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: Alice Walker, Terry McMillan, Gloria Naylor, Tony Morrison are all 50 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: bestselling authors. So I grew up in a home rich 51 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: with that kind of tradition because of her. And then 52 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: one thing else I think that was really cool about 53 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: my mom, aside from her biddy and her humor, is 54 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: that she had the sense of the world. She worked 55 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: as a flight attendant for a long time when I 56 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: was younger, and actually worked for the airlines my entire life, 57 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: and so she had traveled a lot. She was always 58 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: in different capacities over the course of her career, just 59 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: interacting with a lot of different kind of people, which 60 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: meant that she brought that worldly nous, this appreciation for 61 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: diversity and otherness into our home. And and so even 62 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: though we were growing up, we were living in you know, 63 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: two bedroom apartment, paycheck to paycheck, often eviction notices on 64 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: the counter. We were always discussing the news. We had 65 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: a sense an appreciation of culture and of art, and 66 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, we were trying different cuisine. She was always 67 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: studying different recipes from different cultures. Um, so you know, 68 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: we would have Indian currie one night for dinner, and 69 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: then maybe a Pope pie the next and then she'd 70 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: be making like Mexican fajitas. So there was just a 71 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: richness to her that she always brought home and I 72 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: loved And I guess the last thing I would say, 73 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: we laughed a lot. My mom was very funny, and 74 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: I would like to think that I got some of 75 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: my humor from her. Well, and you have a great laugh, 76 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: So I thank you. Do you think that that worldliness 77 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: and that sense of you know, sort of connection to 78 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: the wider world contributed to a sense of stability and 79 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: security even though there was this paycheck to paycheck, you know, 80 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: eviction notices on the kitchen counter kind of existence. I 81 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: think so. I think, you know, as a kid who 82 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: in my teens was coming into an understanding of my 83 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: sexuality as a gay man, for example, or you know, 84 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: my love of arts, which my mom always supported. She 85 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: was always just like she loved that I was drawing 86 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: and writing and reading, and you know, always encouraged that 87 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: part of my life. I think culture, I guess I 88 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: would say it was like a tether for me. It 89 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: was kind of like even amidst the instability or the stress, 90 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: being working poor is stressful, it's exhausting even on good days. 91 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: But I think having a sense of there's this world 92 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: out there that we are connected to, either to our 93 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: appreciation or by how I'm starting to write myself, I 94 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: think it gave me a sense of hope, and it 95 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: added dignity to our lives, you know, to our conversations, 96 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: because we have so much to talk about beyond just 97 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: the rigors of living paycheck to paycheck. It's a beautiful word, dignity. 98 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: And along with this dignity came a careful economy of speech, said, 99 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: and his mom talked about a lot of things, beautiful things, 100 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: but there were places that it seemed they just couldn't go. 101 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: This way of talking or not talking was a family condition. 102 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: There was code on phone calls, if someone paused and said, well, 103 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: it was good to hear your voice. That signaled the 104 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: end of the conversation when said is twelve or thirteen. 105 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: He comes across a photograph of a young man wedged 106 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: into a copy of James Baldwin's Another Country. He had 107 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: never seen the man before, and he asks his mother 108 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: about him. It was kind of like the bookmark, which 109 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: I do the same thing, you kind of like shove, 110 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, a photo or sheet from a notebook in 111 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: a book. It was like this young man who I 112 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: did not recognize, and it was dated like Jackson, Mississippi, 113 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: with a date in the eighties, And I was like, 114 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: is he uncle? Like who is this person? And I 115 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: eventually asked her about it and found out that it 116 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: was like this best friend of hers who she had 117 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: never mentioned. And this was kind of the rub for 118 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: our relationship, you know, amongst all of the richness and 119 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: the laughter and the warmth, there would be these moments 120 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: where all of a sudden, her language was like as 121 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: efficient as possible. So she was like, oh, you know, 122 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: we were really good friends. We would go on road trips. 123 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: Then he found out he was sick and he died. 124 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: He killed himself and then she walked out of the room, 125 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: and I was like what, And I think I shouted 126 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: out maybe one more question because I didn't understand. I 127 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: couldn't fathom as I would think. I was like twelve 128 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: or thirteen, like what being sick had to do with 129 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: killing oneself? Why would you do that? And she was 130 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: like he had aids and she walked out. And that 131 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: ended up being the first vivid memory I have of 132 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: us implicitly talking about sexuality. He was a gay man 133 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: who she a gay black man who she loved very 134 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: very much and lost. And the way kids, you know, 135 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: kind of unwittingly get to the hard questions. They don't 136 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: know what they're doing, they're just digging around and their 137 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: parents stuff. That's very much what happened. It's such a 138 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: theme on this podcast. In almost every episode, there's snooping 139 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: of some kind or another, just this sense of what 140 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: are the adults up to? And you know, what are 141 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: their secrets and what are their lives? You use the 142 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: phrase economy of language or economy of speech. And when 143 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: your mother didn't want to speak, she just didn't and 144 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: she would pause for a really long time and you'd 145 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: have to wait her out or think maybe she's done speaking, 146 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: and then she would say something more right. Could you 147 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the role of religion. It's 148 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: fascinated by the fact that your mother was a Buddhist 149 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: and that your grandmother, her mother was a Baptist who 150 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: later joined in an evangelical church, and sort of what 151 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: the role of all that was for you in these 152 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: years where you were you were coming out to yourself, 153 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: but you were not coming out to anyone around you, 154 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: not too friends, certainly, not to your mother, certainly, not 155 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: to your grandmother. Can you talk us through that period 156 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: of time? Yeah, I mean, you know, really, you know, 157 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: when you asked about kind of the landscape of my upbringing, 158 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: I would say, also, you know, it was kind of 159 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: helpful to think of the kind of the calendar of 160 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: my childhood, which is to say, because my mom was 161 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: a single parent raising me when I was not in 162 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: school for winter break and summer break, it was normal 163 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 1: for her to send me to Memphis to stay with 164 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: her mother, my grandmother, because it's expensive raising boys. Boys 165 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: are taking through all of your things, asking you tough questions, 166 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: you know, getting into trouble, eating all of your food, 167 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: and so that was a really kind of important, I 168 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: don't know, kind of time relationship that we had because 169 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: my mother and her twenties before I was born, started 170 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: practicing nature and Buddhism. She chanted namniah inge K. She 171 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: was very devout, very passionate about nature and Buddhist philosophy. 172 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: And I would argue she was as dedicated to her 173 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: faith as the rest of my family was to their 174 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: Christian faiths at different times. I mean, there were Catholic members, 175 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: they were Baptist and Evangelical, you know, but everyone was very, 176 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: very passionate. I felt like often when I was growing 177 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: up the only person who was ambivalent about religion, and 178 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: I still am, probably because twice a year I was 179 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: kind of being shuttled back and forth between these two 180 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: really intense religious philosophies. And so it was like when 181 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: I was home with mom Um in Texas, I would 182 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: participate and do all kinds of nature and Buddhist activities, 183 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:06,599 Speaker 1: and that was just a part of our lives. I 184 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: would chant with her in the mornings and evenings, and 185 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: then in the winter or summer, when I was with 186 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: my grandmother, I would go to church. I was baptized, 187 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: you know, at one point, I would go to whatever 188 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: the like, the Christian Bible camp, all of those different things. 189 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: When my grandmother started going to a white, suburban Evangelical church, 190 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: and that was very different. She until that moment been 191 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,599 Speaker 1: going to mostly black Baptist church. She started going to 192 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: the church, you know, right basically at the beginning of 193 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: high school for me, and it just felt like the 194 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: kind of standard back and forth dysfunctional, but no one's 195 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: talking about it. It's fine kind of relationship we'd all 196 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: developed over the years regarding faith and how to live. 197 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: I think because I was entering puberty and becoming a teenager, 198 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: starting to talk back and frankly starting to become more 199 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: self aware about my feelings for boys, starting to stow away. 200 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: Calvin Klein adds, you know that, like my grandmother finds 201 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,719 Speaker 1: at one point in my stuff at her house. It 202 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: just made it it almost like a do or die 203 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 1: moment for my grandmother, where I think she felt, this 204 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: is where I have to take my stand. I have 205 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: to save my grandson. I've already lost my daughter. I 206 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: very much feel as her perspective at that time, all 207 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: of a sudden, we were going to church four times 208 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: a week, five times a week and it ends within 209 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: a really heartbreaking kind of moment where my grandmother asked 210 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: a visiting pastor to pray over me, basically to save me, 211 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, the sins of my mother. And it was 212 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: it was awful. What kinds of things does the pastor 213 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: say in that moment? I refrained that my grandmother had 214 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: when introducing me to people at this new church, was 215 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: this is my grandson's side. He's visiting from Texas. His 216 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: mother was Buddhist. That was that was my introduction to 217 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: countless people at this church. And of course, you know 218 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: for teenagers, that's just uncomfortable anyway, right, But yeah, that 219 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: has just kind of gone on and gone on and 220 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: gone on, and it felt like everyone was making me 221 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: their little pet Christian project in this church, being really 222 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: nice and supportive. And then at the end of the summer, 223 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: I think perhaps because my grandmother was aware that I 224 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: was getting ready to go home and we've been having 225 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: a lot of arguments, she decided at the end of 226 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: a church service to actually take me to the front 227 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: of the church when they say, you know, the doors 228 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: of the church are open if if anyone would like 229 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: to join the church, you're welcome. To do. So it's 230 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: supposed to be voluntary. The ideas, you know, if if 231 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: you are so inspired, you know, you are welcome to 232 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: walk up to the front of the church and kind 233 00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: of have this moment. What happened is my grandmother took 234 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: me by the hand, and I was so stunned. She 235 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: didn't really have to drag me. She just kind of 236 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: led me to the front of the church, and I 237 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,239 Speaker 1: just felt like I was having an out of body experience. 238 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: And the next thing I know, you know, I realized 239 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: this man, this pastor, has been talking for several minutes 240 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: because I was just like, what's going on, And I 241 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: just realized she said, this is my grandson. Said he's 242 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: from Texas. His mother's Buddhist, and he basically put a 243 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: curse on my mother. I've heard a lot of prayers 244 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: since then, and and and before then. You know, I 245 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: know what a hopeful prayer sounds like. This wasn't it. 246 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: He was basically praying for my mother to suffer and 247 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: get sick and forgot to put all kinds of ailments 248 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: very much like basically show her, you know, your seven plagues, 249 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: so that she will see the light and come back 250 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: to the church. And bring her son with her, and 251 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: it was it was stunning. I mean, I I remember 252 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: how I felt. I remember bird that I felt like 253 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: I was frankly about to pass out, you know, because 254 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: the entire time that he's saying these really awful things, 255 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: things I wouldn't wish upon, frankly my worst enemy, with 256 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: a few exceptions. Um, I realized, you know, like my 257 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: mom's mom is holding my hand. And I'm not a parent, 258 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: but I think it's fair to say, generally, if someone 259 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: were to talk about your child, you know, and certainly 260 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: your grandchild in this way, you know, you would be upset, 261 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: you would be offended, you would stand up and instead, 262 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, I just was looking at my grandmother with 263 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: her head bowed, and it was just we were just 264 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: in two totally different realities, and you were just did 265 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: the Matthew were fourteen at this point, Yeah, I believe. So. 266 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: Imagine being fourteen years old and your grandmother is holding 267 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: your hand as a pastor places what amounts to a 268 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: curse her daughter, your own mother. And what's worse, if 269 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: anything in this situation can possibly be worse, is that 270 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: Sayid's mother has a serious heart condition. The pastor who 271 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: was saying that didn't know about but my grandmother did. 272 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: But my sense of right and wrong in that moment 273 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: it was pretty clear. You know. I was like, this 274 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: is wrong. This is not even for people who followed 275 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: the Christian faith. I don't think that's what they want, 276 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, And so I remember feeling like, gosh, this 277 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 1: is warped, this is toxic. I just felt really sad 278 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: for myself, but also for my grandmother because I think 279 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: though I didn't understand the depths of it, I did 280 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: feel in that moment like there's no coming back from 281 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: a moment like this for us. And it's also occurring 282 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: to me that this pastor and his curse and your 283 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: your grandmother's acceptance of all that is about your mother 284 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: being a Buddhist, you are at this point, at the 285 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: age of fourteen, carrying something much deeper and closer to 286 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,959 Speaker 1: your identity that would be problematic in that world, in 287 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: the evangelical Christian world. Absolutely it felt yeah, And and 288 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, and to think about secrets. I 289 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: think that nuance your pointing too, is distinctly Southern. My 290 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: grandmother at that point knew that I had a crush 291 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: on boys before she submits Said to the pastor. Sayd's 292 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: grandmother had found a cutout page from a magazine, a 293 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: Calvin Klein ad featuring Mark Wahlberg when she was going 294 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: through Said's things. So she slaps him, hits him hard, 295 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: calls him worldly more a code, but she doesn't speak 296 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: to him directly about his sexuality. I think grandmother's often 297 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: end up kind of surveilling and policing gender for boys 298 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: and girls that they're raising, you know. So it was 299 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: always like act like a boy, don't be a sissy, 300 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: don't stand like that, don't own your hand like that. 301 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: She knew. And so I think the fact that in 302 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: this moment she takes me to the front of the church, 303 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: she did not say I'm worried my grandson might be 304 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: gay or whatever, I think it speaks to how deeply 305 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: shameful homophobia and queerness in that space is embedded, you 306 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: know that, because to me, it feels like that's really 307 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: what was going on. That's clearly what she was worried 308 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: about for me, but it felt like that was too 309 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: too barbed to even speak in the church. So it 310 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: almost feels like my mom and my mother's faith becomes 311 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: the well the sacrificial lamp. We'll be back in a 312 00:19:54,560 --> 00:20:05,479 Speaker 1: moment with more family secrets. Said is now in high school. 313 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: One day, his class is let out early because the 314 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: drama department is putting on a production of The Laramie Project, 315 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 1: a theater piece based on the murder of Matthew Shepard. 316 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: It's all said can do to hold himself together. He 317 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: doesn't want anyone to see him cry. He remains closeted 318 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: through high school and then wins a fellowship for speech 319 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: and debate at Western Kentucky University and initially remains closeted 320 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: there as well. He refers to this in his book 321 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: as his second closeting, writing it shouldn't have been that 322 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: easy to unbecome myself, I mean to me, so much 323 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: of your story is about unbecoming and the cost and 324 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: the price of unbecoming and becoming and this kind of 325 00:20:53,800 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: dance between those two states. Yeah. One myth that heterosexual 326 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: people have about the closet, and of course there are 327 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: all kinds of cultural closets, but one myth is that 328 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: it's like queer people come out once and that's it, 329 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: you know, like we just like we we send a 330 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: flare into the air and everyone's like, Okay, Side's gay, 331 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: and then that's it for the rest of sides life. 332 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: And of course that's not the case. Every time we 333 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: start a new job, every time we step into a bar, 334 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: you know, every time we meet a new doctor or nurse, 335 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: you know, and they're going over our sexual history. All 336 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: of those kinds of moments we are having to negotiate. 337 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: We're having to decide is it safe for me to share, 338 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: Do I need to share, should I you know, or 339 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: I'm absolutely going to share. And it's fluid, and it's 340 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 1: based on the space we're in, how safe we feel, 341 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: if it feels relevant, if we have the energy to 342 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: do so. And that was not something I understand stood 343 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: as a young man coming into my sexual identity. So 344 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: when I got to college, for example, you see, and 345 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: it's like literally in the first day, I mean, I'm like, 346 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: after years of being like I can't wait to get 347 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: away from home and go to school and I'm just 348 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: gonna finally be myself because surely the only issue I'm 349 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: struggling with here is my family. I step onto this 350 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: college campus and it's like, within like five hellos, I've 351 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: stepped right back into the closet I've taken on this 352 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: new persona. I'm trying to act like one of the 353 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: jocks from my high school who never would have so 354 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: much have sat with me at the cafeteria at One 355 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: Word school, But that was the persona I was like 356 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: trying to embrace during my first year experience that weird 357 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: orientation week, you know college students have. I mean, one 358 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: thing I'm thinking about is you're speaking, is the poignancy 359 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: or the pain of performing a persona like in that 360 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: first week to be accepted and then to be accepted. 361 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: But you're not being accepted as yourself right. The goal 362 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: is simply to be accepted, and you're leaving you know, 363 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: one is leaving oneself kind of in the dust. Absolutely, 364 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: you find a group of friends pretty quickly where you 365 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: feel safe and comfortable being yourself. M hm. I mean, 366 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about safety because as you're growing up 367 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: to feeling that it is not safe to be gay, 368 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: it is not safe to be black, and it is 369 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: really not safe to be a black gay man, and 370 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: then you get to this place where it almost seems 371 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: like you're just like fuck that. Your Twitter and Instagram 372 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: handle is the ferocity and there's this moment in your 373 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: book about halfway through where you describe as a ferocity 374 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: you know with which you are going to be your 375 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: most authentic self. Thank you for catching that detailized sure 376 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 1: that little easter um. You know, you go to your 377 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: first few college parties, the first few times you you know, 378 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: have like the messy hook ups, and and you're in 379 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: a mixed group of students your age, older students, and 380 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: you get to kiss a boy and plain sight of 381 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: all of those different people, and no one cares because 382 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: they're making out with whoever they're making out. They're nodding 383 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: as you're like, oh, you found someone, you know, and 384 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: that's all that matters. You found someone. It's been on 385 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: my mind so much because, of course, with the pandemic, 386 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: there are still college students who were very much looking 387 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: forward to getting to have those kinds of experiences. And 388 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: I understand, and certainly we need to socially distance and 389 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: those parties should not be happening right now. They're not healthy, 390 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: it's not good, it's not worth it. But also I 391 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: do want to honor that ache I've been thinking about 392 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: of queer young people who are looking for those kinds 393 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: of spaces. Who were so king forward to those kinds 394 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: of moments, And if you don't need them, you don't 395 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: understand how important it can be to have a night 396 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: like that. You know what I mean, to dance and 397 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: swing and mess your way into yourself, and that is 398 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: that is an important part of learning who we are 399 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: as young people in particular, right, the fun, the joy, 400 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: particularly after years of self policing, you know, a bullying 401 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: of anxiety and depression. It's those first few moments of 402 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: like just the endorphin rush of oh wow, this is 403 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: what it feels like. Is this what I'll feel like 404 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,479 Speaker 1: all the time? That is a profound moment, because of 405 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,239 Speaker 1: course you go, oh, well, I want to feel like 406 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: this forever. I want to be my full fear self. 407 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: And for me, it wasn't just oh, this is a 408 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: cool party. It was learning how to unite all of 409 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: myselves in plain sight. I'm always kind of trying to 410 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: figure out which mask, which persona is most viable in 411 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: the space. Yeah, there's a moment where you're writing about 412 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: your mother, and you're right. We both allowed too deep 413 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: of a contrast between our interiors and our exteriors, and 414 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: there's such a price to be paid for that, the 415 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: sense that who we are on the inside is not 416 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: it's not what we're showing. It's not safe to show it, 417 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: or we think it's not, or there's shame or self loathing. 418 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: There are moments where, even after I come out to 419 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: my mom, at one point, the awkwardness of talking about dating, 420 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 1: of talking about boyfriends would be so intense at times 421 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: in those first couple of years after I came out 422 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: to her that sometimes I would just give up. I 423 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: would like raise a question hin and she I would 424 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: look at her and she would have a look of 425 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: total panic on her face, and I would change the subject. 426 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: And I think that is an aspect of identity that 427 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: doesn't get as much mainstream attention. But actually, I would 428 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: argue is a much more common, ongoing part of queer 429 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: life because it's something we're constantly negotiating. We'll be right back, 430 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: you know. That's sort of brings me to the part 431 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: of your book where you write about a relationship with 432 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: you call him the botanist, that is, you know, just 433 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: defined by its violence and defilement, and that goes on 434 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: for a bit even as I is finding his footing, 435 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: settling in and becoming more himself with his new college friends, 436 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: there is a strong undercurrent of self loathing. This self 437 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: loathing takes the form of his being drawn into encounters 438 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: with sadistic men in which this inner directed hatred gets 439 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: played out in terrifying ways. One of these he calls 440 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: the botanist a cold and punishing man, and the other 441 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: he calls Daniel. Daniel fully intends to kill said, and 442 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: very nearly does. There's a moment where a professor of 443 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: yours says to you, said, what happened to your smile? 444 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: Used to smile all the time? What was that trajectory? 445 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: I think it's funny. You know, we've forgotten it already 446 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: because our conversation about queerness and LGBT rights as a 447 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: country has moved pretty quickly, which is nice. But you 448 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: know what, I was a high school student in a 449 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: college student when we would talk about these kinds of issues. 450 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: We didn't use the word ally. We didn't talk about this, 451 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: We didn't talk about inclusion. The word was tolerance. Remember 452 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: that that was the kind of euphemism or the framework 453 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: that we would talk about. Basically accepting gay people, trans 454 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: people weren't even a part of the conversation at the time, right, 455 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: it was like this, we are tolerant community. And and 456 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: so I think what I discovered as a college student 457 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: was that though I wasn't being bullied, though I wasn't 458 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: being harassed or explicitly other it was fine. You know, 459 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: people dated, people knew I was having crushes or going 460 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: on dates or hooking up a bit. You know, I 461 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: would break it up a bit with friends and mixed company. 462 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: I realized, I think over time and in retrospect, that 463 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: it was tolerated. I didn't feel comfortable, I think talking 464 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: about the less fun parts of my sexual identity. I 465 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: didn't feel comfortable talking about the messiness, the confusion and 466 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: things that we now have. I think a far better 467 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: conversation about grape culture consent. What does racism look like 468 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: in a sexual context? You know? What what is sexual 469 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: education and sexual health for queer people look like? Like? 470 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: All of that was not I didn't see a way 471 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: to bring that into the conversation. I don't think my 472 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: friends did. We didn't have that tool. And so it's 473 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: one of those things where it's important for us to 474 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: understand that just because people aren't explicitly trying to kill 475 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: us does not mean that we are truly free. And 476 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: I think that's the struggle when you have been alienated 477 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: for so long you don't even understand that you're kind 478 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: of trying to survive on like crumbs and small morsels. 479 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: You're not really getting sustenance. And so though you know, 480 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: a lot had changed and it felt more inclusive than 481 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: where I grew up in Texas, for example, I think 482 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: I started inflicting my own shame and starting to keep 483 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: my own secrets on my own. I think America is 484 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: really good at getting women to be sexist to women, 485 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: getting black people to be racist to ourselves, getting queer 486 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: people to inflict homophobia transphobia on ourselves and each other. 487 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: You know, it's almost like that toxicity is like whispering 488 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: in your ear for so long that you start saying 489 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: it to yourself. And I feel that, like in college, 490 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: that caught up with me. Does that makes so much sense? 491 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: It's like internalizing it becomes the internal annihilator. Oh, absolutely 492 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: to that point. I mean, you know, thank goodness for 493 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: Women's studies fellows and Audrey lore did Glory Anzell do it. 494 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: You know, I remember taking a women studies class in 495 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: college and seeing the phrase internalized sexism, and I thought 496 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: my whole body was going to burst into flames because 497 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: it was such a profound idea, like, oh, of course, 498 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,479 Speaker 1: we can totally internalize all of this stuff. And one 499 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: of the things I identified with, I guess is that 500 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: this And I'm wondering whether in my identification, I'm right, 501 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: this period of time where you are kind of acting 502 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: out of this internalized toxicity, how long after that is 503 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: it that your your mother who has been I mean, 504 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: your mother's secret in a way is that she has 505 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: this heart condition. It's not a secret, but she basically 506 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: acts like it doesn't exist, and she keeps smoking cigarettes 507 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: and she just lives like somebody who isn't sick. She 508 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: just refuses to be sick, right, but it catches up 509 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: with her, and you get a phone call that she's 510 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: very sick, and ultimately your mother dies. There's something in 511 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: there about becoming real. In the aftermath of your mother's death, 512 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: you're with your uncle and you've never explicitly come out 513 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: to him, and now you're there and you're making arrangements 514 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: about your mom, and you're right. There were no more 515 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: masks left for me to hide behind. And I just 516 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: wonder whether it's too nate and tidy, perhaps, but it 517 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: felt to me that, I mean, you and your mother 518 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: really loved each other, and her loss was huge. But 519 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: it also feels like it may have been the thing 520 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: that rendered or kind of undid that particular kind of 521 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: acting out of that deep internal self annihilation. Something I 522 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: say often about losing my mom is that it was 523 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: the most humanizing at that time, the most humanizing experience 524 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: I've ever had, even more so than literally, you know, 525 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: someone almost killing me, which at the time did not 526 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: feel like this profoundly enlightening. It was just like a 527 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: horrible thing that happened, you know. So how I saw 528 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: it when my mom died, I felt like grief, and 529 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: it was. It was staringly painful, but it it revealed 530 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: the depths of our relationship to one another. It revealed 531 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: her humanity as an independent person, as just a woman, 532 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: as a daughter, as a sister, as a friend, you know, 533 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: just watching and meeting and have you know, just seeing 534 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: over and over again, all of these people have just 535 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: such an intensely profound grief because of their relationship with her. 536 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: I think something about that and the finality of death, 537 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: as you have these moments where you're like, gosh, she 538 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: was an incredible person, because of course your next thing 539 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: is want to go I should tell her. I want 540 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: to tell her this, I want to tell her what 541 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: I now understand. And then you go, oh, but I can't, 542 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: you know, so you're in this like loop. I think 543 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: that that loop of bereavement introduced me to myself in 544 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: a way. It it is hard to find language for it. 545 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: It feels way to some simplistic to say it made 546 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: me want to live more. But I think maybe it 547 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: helped me understand that my mother this whole time had 548 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: been fighting for her life and trying her best. And 549 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: here I am, if not being ambivalent about my own 550 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: life at times, being my own worst enemy at times literally, 551 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: I mean, in the case of Daniel, just kind of 552 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: almost willingly forfeitting my life, forfeitting at least my appreciation 553 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: for my life and my my well being. And I 554 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: think there was something about the profound loss of my 555 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: mother where I just feel like, how dare you? You 556 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: loved her so much and you now feel the full 557 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,439 Speaker 1: range of her love for you, How could you do this? 558 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: How could you fail to appreciate the very person she 559 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: loves so much? It's not like there was like a 560 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: single moment where all of this became clear. But I 561 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: think beginning with the experience of losing my mother, it's 562 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: one thing to understand your sexual identity or racial identity, 563 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: at least enough to be able to talk about them, 564 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 1: which is not nothing. I think it's an altogether different 565 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: journey to say, Okay, what are you going to do 566 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: with this life? What are you gonna do with the 567 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: self that you've been working so hard to name? And 568 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: I think in a way it was like, and maybe 569 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 1: this is the tragedy of the book, homophobia and all 570 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: of the failures of identity kept my mother and I 571 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: from having some really important conversations that I still wish 572 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: we could have. And I think when I lost her, 573 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: there's something about that deficit that I felt like I 574 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: have to make up on my own. Now. Oh, how 575 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: we fight for our lives. We try and we try, 576 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: and perhaps the magnificence the deliverance is in the trying, 577 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: And perhaps those who are lost to us are finally 578 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: not lost to us. Perhaps the conversations we couldn't have 579 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: are the ones that swirl around in our heads and 580 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: hearts and keep us going that's really beautiful. It occurs 581 00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: to me too that if we can if we enter 582 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: analize annihilation and we internalize toxicity, we can also internalize love. Yeah, 583 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: it's possible. And you know, and I think, and as 584 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: a writer who's always is drawn to annihilation, you know, 585 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways, that's that's it's much easier. 586 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: That kind of peril is often, you know, like clear 587 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: and present, and it often has to be dealt with 588 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 1: the moment it emerges. Right. But but the rigor of love, 589 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: the rigor of like you know, in a moment you 590 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: see where my mom's in the emergency room when I'm 591 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: in high school earlier in the book, and she's like 592 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: just has her fist in the air and says, like 593 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: I must win. The rigor it takes to become the 594 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: kind of person who can have that kind of determination, 595 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 1: I would say it's three times as difficult as simply 596 00:38:52,320 --> 00:39:00,760 Speaker 1: trying to escape immediate peril your side eating one left 597 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: passage from his memoir Always like Us never really got away. 598 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: It seemed we just bought ourselves time, a few more 599 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 1: gasps of air, a few more poems, a few more years. 600 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: History hurt more than any weapon inflicted on us. It 601 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: hit back harder than any weapon we could wield, any 602 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: weapon we could turn ourselves into. I sunk down, I 603 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 1: looked away. I felt that loneliness and let it settle 604 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: in heavy and final. I don't know how long I 605 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:46,320 Speaker 1: sat on the floor in that restroom, staring and seeing nothing. 606 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 1: Eventually I stood up again and washed my face, still 607 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 1: avoiding my reflection. It seemed as if my life were 608 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: waiting for me outside that room, like polite guest I 609 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: had left behind at the table. It was rude to 610 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: keep him waiting. It helped to think of my life 611 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,720 Speaker 1: as someone separate from me, a person who didn't deserve 612 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 1: to be abandoned. Sending back down in front of the 613 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: pile of books, I returned to Reginald Shepherd's words. He 614 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: was gone, but they were still here. I thought about 615 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,280 Speaker 1: all the poets who had kept me going. One more minute, 616 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,720 Speaker 1: one more step of the drowned and the drowning, Reginald 617 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,359 Speaker 1: Shepherd wrote, I felt the cord pool taught between us. 618 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: I took a breath. I started a draft of a 619 00:40:46,239 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: new poem. Family Secrets is an iHeart Media product action. 620 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer and Bethan Macaluso is 621 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 1: the executive producer. We'd also like to give a special 622 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: thanks to Tyler Klang and Tristan McNeil. If you have 623 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,319 Speaker 1: a family secret you'd like to share, leave us a 624 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: voicemail and your story could appear on an upcoming episode. 625 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: Our number is one eight eight eight secret zero. That's 626 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: secret and then the number zero. You can also find 627 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Danny Ryder and Facebook at facebook 628 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: dot com slash Family Secrets Pod, and Twitter at FAMI 629 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: Secrets Pod. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit 630 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 631 00:41:58,719 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.