WEBVTT - How to Report on the Russia Investigation 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.116 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:23.156 --> 0:00:26.156 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:26.556 --> 0:00:32.116 I'm Noah Feldman. Recently we got some big news. Robert Mueller, 0:00:32.276 --> 0:00:34.876 despite saying he did not want to, is going to 0:00:34.916 --> 0:00:38.676 testify in front of Congress about his investigation into Russian 0:00:38.716 --> 0:00:42.956 interference in the twenty sixteen election and into possible obstruction 0:00:43.036 --> 0:00:46.796 by President Donald Trump. When that happens, it's going to 0:00:46.836 --> 0:00:51.156 be a media circus, which made me think, what's it 0:00:51.236 --> 0:00:53.996 like to cover a story like that, How does it work? 0:00:54.796 --> 0:00:59.756 What is the news behind the news? To talk about this? 0:00:59.876 --> 0:01:02.756 We are incredibly fortunate to have with us Laura Jarrett, 0:01:02.796 --> 0:01:06.116 one of my favorite people of all time. Laura covers 0:01:06.196 --> 0:01:09.636 legal affairs for CNN, and she has the DUBI distinction 0:01:09.676 --> 0:01:13.196 of having joined CNN at exactly the moment when the 0:01:13.236 --> 0:01:17.356 Trump administration exploded into the headlines. Laura, you're either the 0:01:17.396 --> 0:01:20.156 smartest person in the world were the unluckiest in terms 0:01:20.156 --> 0:01:22.956 of when you started your job. It's not boring, it's 0:01:23.036 --> 0:01:27.156 not boring. Before Laura joined CNN, she was a practicing 0:01:27.516 --> 0:01:31.076 attorney in Chicago and private practice, doing all sorts of 0:01:31.196 --> 0:01:34.156 high powered litigation. Not the sort of person who usually 0:01:34.196 --> 0:01:37.836 turns into a journalist. And before that, she was a 0:01:37.916 --> 0:01:40.036 law student at Harvard Law School, where I had the 0:01:40.076 --> 0:01:43.116 great pleasure of meeting her, and she was the standout 0:01:43.156 --> 0:01:45.676 student in a course I taught way back when when 0:01:45.716 --> 0:01:49.036 Barack Obama was just running for president with John Jackson 0:01:49.316 --> 0:01:51.516 of University of Pennsylvania, who's now the dean at the 0:01:51.756 --> 0:01:54.156 end and Burg School at the University of Pennsylvania. And 0:01:55.156 --> 0:01:59.636 I've been following her career with tremendous and totally undeserved pride, 0:01:59.676 --> 0:02:01.436 and I'm thrilled that you could join us. Thank you, 0:02:01.516 --> 0:02:03.996 Laura for being here, Thank you so much for having me. 0:02:04.636 --> 0:02:07.716 So start at the beginning. You're sitting in your law firm, 0:02:07.956 --> 0:02:10.516 you're earning your big law from salary, You're a mover 0:02:10.636 --> 0:02:16.436 and shaker in Chicago. Why turn to journalism? Other than 0:02:16.476 --> 0:02:20.756 the fact that I had a killer shoe collection, I 0:02:20.836 --> 0:02:25.156 was miserable. And I think part of the issue is, 0:02:25.476 --> 0:02:28.756 you know, unless you have a legal background or you 0:02:28.756 --> 0:02:32.116 have parents that are at law firms, a lot of 0:02:32.116 --> 0:02:35.796 people don't realize that much of the day is spent 0:02:36.076 --> 0:02:41.076 on phone calls and in meetings planning for different eventualities, 0:02:41.076 --> 0:02:44.436 but not actually digging into the substance of the law. 0:02:44.476 --> 0:02:48.796 And so when by the time I left, I was 0:02:48.836 --> 0:02:51.236 a sixth year associate, and which that means is I'm 0:02:51.236 --> 0:02:54.716 basically managing other associates, but it also meant you're on 0:02:54.756 --> 0:02:56.676 the cusp of partnership. I mean making it to the 0:02:56.716 --> 0:02:59.716 sixth year. Usually people go for the go for the gold. Sure, 0:03:00.236 --> 0:03:05.996 but that requires seeing somebody's life who is serving as 0:03:05.996 --> 0:03:08.476 a partner and thinking, oh, you know what if I 0:03:08.516 --> 0:03:11.236 just work a couple more years, work really hard, put 0:03:11.276 --> 0:03:13.916 my head down, that's the life I can have. And 0:03:13.996 --> 0:03:16.596 there was nobody for which I could point to and 0:03:16.636 --> 0:03:19.436 say that's what I want. So why journalism and why 0:03:19.476 --> 0:03:21.756 not going off to become a ski bumb Because I 0:03:21.836 --> 0:03:24.156 knew that I still love the law, and I knew 0:03:24.196 --> 0:03:29.116 that I still loved digging into legal issues, but I 0:03:29.196 --> 0:03:32.596 didn't want to be an advocate anymore. I didn't like 0:03:32.716 --> 0:03:37.156 the idea of having to just take a position coal hog, 0:03:37.396 --> 0:03:39.836 no matter whether I thought it was right or dumb. 0:03:40.396 --> 0:03:44.716 I was loathed to go in every day knowing that 0:03:44.716 --> 0:03:47.996 this is what they're paying me to do. So whether 0:03:48.076 --> 0:03:50.516 I think they're wrong or right, I'm supposed to argue 0:03:50.556 --> 0:03:53.116 for it, and you're penalized if you're not as aggressive 0:03:53.116 --> 0:03:55.316 as possible about it. And I wanted to just dig 0:03:55.356 --> 0:03:57.396 in on the facts, and so I try to think, well, 0:03:57.396 --> 0:03:59.316 what can I do where I can cover the facts, 0:03:59.956 --> 0:04:02.396 I can cover legal issues, but do it in a 0:04:02.476 --> 0:04:05.756 far more fulfilling, an interesting way. It turns out local 0:04:05.756 --> 0:04:08.796 news in Chicago is very competitive. They really want you 0:04:08.836 --> 0:04:12.596 to have you gone through the ranks of other local markets. 0:04:12.636 --> 0:04:18.036 And it turns out more sort of nationwide networks, especially Cable, 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:22.356 are far more flexible about taking someone with an unorthodox 0:04:22.396 --> 0:04:25.636 background that's actually fascinating. I would have had no idea 0:04:25.636 --> 0:04:27.476 about that, and I was gonna my next question was 0:04:27.476 --> 0:04:30.236 actually going to be how does someone who's a great 0:04:30.276 --> 0:04:34.356 lawyer with an impeccable legal pedigree but has never actually 0:04:34.396 --> 0:04:36.156 stood in front of a camera and explain things to 0:04:36.196 --> 0:04:41.196 people before suddenly end up on air at CNN. So 0:04:41.356 --> 0:04:44.956 part of why CNN ends up being such a great 0:04:45.036 --> 0:04:49.636 fit for me, especially coming directly from Latham and Watkins 0:04:49.636 --> 0:04:52.876 having never been on air once in my life, is 0:04:52.916 --> 0:04:57.556 because it's on all day long, so they need people. 0:04:57.916 --> 0:05:01.156 They need people on all day long, and there's so 0:05:01.236 --> 0:05:03.476 much more willing to take a chance on you. And 0:05:03.556 --> 0:05:06.636 it was really CNN that came up with this idea 0:05:06.636 --> 0:05:08.676 of well, you have the legal background, why don't we 0:05:08.756 --> 0:05:11.436 leverage why don't you cover the Justice Department? And again 0:05:12.236 --> 0:05:15.916 they remember, this is the summer of twenty sixteen, So 0:05:15.956 --> 0:05:19.556 the Justice Department that they envisioned for me was, I 0:05:19.596 --> 0:05:22.196 would say, the pace was going to be slightly different, 0:05:22.236 --> 0:05:27.316 and they thought, well, you know, in your account, your account, Laura. 0:05:27.396 --> 0:05:29.436 They hired you because they had nothing to lose, because 0:05:29.436 --> 0:05:31.396 if you weren't good at four am, they just would 0:05:31.436 --> 0:05:34.116 never put you on, you know, at nine pm. And 0:05:34.156 --> 0:05:36.996 they give you the very boring beat of the Hillary 0:05:37.036 --> 0:05:41.316 Clinton Justice Department, where nothing especially would happen, and antitrust 0:05:41.396 --> 0:05:44.636 laws wouldn't be strictly enforced and you know, etc. Etc. Right, 0:05:44.836 --> 0:05:48.116 we would be dealing with, you know, the twelve Benghazi 0:05:48.196 --> 0:05:51.236 hearing and congressional document fights about stuff like that. So 0:05:51.276 --> 0:05:53.316 you took a boring job and you got an interesting one. 0:05:53.596 --> 0:05:56.636 I knew it would be interesting. I just didn't know 0:05:56.796 --> 0:06:00.116 that it was going to be like this. Shall we say, Yeah, 0:06:00.276 --> 0:06:01.796 I knew, I knew it was going to be great, 0:06:01.796 --> 0:06:02.836 and I knew it was going to be the right 0:06:02.876 --> 0:06:05.356 move for me, and it was certainly going to be 0:06:05.676 --> 0:06:10.396 far more fulfilling the managing document review for large corporate litigation. 0:06:10.956 --> 0:06:13.196 I had no idea it was going to be like this, 0:06:13.396 --> 0:06:16.516 and it has turned out, I think, to be, you know, 0:06:17.196 --> 0:06:20.956 such a memorable and incredible experience for me to have 0:06:21.076 --> 0:06:27.236 as my first formative job in journalism. So tell me 0:06:27.276 --> 0:06:29.636 about what it's actually like on a daily basis. I 0:06:29.636 --> 0:06:31.436 mean to those of us who are I would say 0:06:31.436 --> 0:06:33.796 at the periphery of the media like me, I write 0:06:33.796 --> 0:06:35.636 a column, but I'm not, you know, I don't have 0:06:35.676 --> 0:06:39.916 to respond in every live moment. Sometimes Trump's legal news 0:06:40.596 --> 0:06:43.676 seems like drinking from a fire hose. You know. Every 0:06:43.716 --> 0:06:46.756 morning we wake up, we turn on CNN or we 0:06:46.876 --> 0:06:49.876 open the newspaper, and we hear the latest story of 0:06:49.916 --> 0:06:52.316 what's happened. But that means that if we're doing that, 0:06:52.716 --> 0:06:56.196 you've already been up for hours before us. You've already 0:06:56.236 --> 0:06:59.956 assimilated what's happened, and you've already presented it as a 0:06:59.956 --> 0:07:03.196 as a story. So how do you usually first hear 0:07:03.716 --> 0:07:06.516 that the president has done something or that the Department 0:07:06.516 --> 0:07:09.396 of Justice has done something what's your usual, Well, do 0:07:09.396 --> 0:07:11.876 you usually know about it before it even happens, So 0:07:12.036 --> 0:07:14.796 it kind of depends on what the issue is. A 0:07:14.916 --> 0:07:18.916 perfect example of where unfortunately we had no heads up 0:07:19.156 --> 0:07:22.076 was when the Special Council decided to break his silence 0:07:22.876 --> 0:07:27.476 after two years of stoicism. That day, walked into the 0:07:27.516 --> 0:07:31.476 Justice Department at nine am, got some coffee, sat down, 0:07:31.756 --> 0:07:35.196 was just sort of casually going through my emails, and 0:07:35.356 --> 0:07:38.596 what do we get is a media alert from the 0:07:38.636 --> 0:07:41.596 Special Counsel's office that he's actually going to speak in 0:07:41.636 --> 0:07:44.876 an hour and a half. And the challenge of something 0:07:44.916 --> 0:07:49.036 like that is immediately everyone turns to you with what 0:07:49.316 --> 0:07:51.116 is he going to say? And does that mean that 0:07:51.196 --> 0:07:53.996 the people within CNN call you. They say, well, you're 0:07:53.996 --> 0:07:55.956 on the Department of Justice, bead. We need to be 0:07:55.996 --> 0:07:57.716 prepared for when he speaks in an hour and a half, 0:07:57.836 --> 0:07:59.876 So we expect that you will already know what's going 0:07:59.916 --> 0:08:02.636 to happen before it's happened. That's what they're saying too. Absolutely, 0:08:03.076 --> 0:08:05.716 go find out exactly what he's going to say, and 0:08:05.756 --> 0:08:08.036 then not only go out and find out what he's 0:08:08.036 --> 0:08:10.676 going to say, but get on TV right now and 0:08:11.276 --> 0:08:14.236 talk about it and tell us first find out and 0:08:14.236 --> 0:08:15.716 then tell us about it. But actually you want to 0:08:15.716 --> 0:08:17.156 we want to do that in reverse order, but really 0:08:17.196 --> 0:08:21.916 maybe simultaneously. Maybe maybe maybe that And that's that is 0:08:21.916 --> 0:08:25.436 Again one of the challenges with how fast everything is 0:08:25.476 --> 0:08:28.716 moving right now is while you are on trying to 0:08:28.756 --> 0:08:32.356 report about what you just found out about, it's there's 0:08:32.356 --> 0:08:34.356 still incoming. So why did you how did you do it? 0:08:34.356 --> 0:08:36.356 I mean tell us concretely, what did you do? Ninety 0:08:36.356 --> 0:08:39.196 minutes you get the email, suddenly you go into action. 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:41.436 What did you do for the next ninety minutes? So 0:08:41.516 --> 0:08:44.476 for the next ninety minutes, I was literally running all 0:08:44.516 --> 0:08:46.876 over the building, or I should say waddling, because I'm 0:08:46.876 --> 0:08:50.596 eight and a half months pregnant difficulty. We don't make 0:08:50.596 --> 0:08:54.236 this too easy for you, waddling all over the halls 0:08:54.276 --> 0:08:59.076 of Justice, um knocking on doors to whomever I thought 0:08:59.116 --> 0:09:03.076 would be best positioned to know about what exactly he's 0:09:03.076 --> 0:09:05.876 going to say. And the challenge with someone like Mueller 0:09:06.636 --> 0:09:11.916 is that group is very tight lipped and to say 0:09:11.916 --> 0:09:14.596 the least, And so it's probably not that surprising that 0:09:14.596 --> 0:09:17.036 we didn't even know he was going to speak that day, 0:09:17.796 --> 0:09:20.636 because they don't, you know, frontload things with the press. 0:09:20.676 --> 0:09:23.236 They just they don't operate like that. And so I 0:09:23.276 --> 0:09:26.196 waddled around Justice and then I made as many phone 0:09:26.196 --> 0:09:30.636 calls as possible while doing live hits, saying I don't 0:09:30.676 --> 0:09:33.156 know what he's going to say, but it should be interesting. 0:09:33.516 --> 0:09:35.876 And did you did you engage in any pre analysis? 0:09:35.916 --> 0:09:39.516 I mean, I will say I watched the thing live 0:09:39.716 --> 0:09:43.276 on CNN, and then I muted it to start writing 0:09:43.356 --> 0:09:45.356 my own column explaining what I thought had happened. And 0:09:45.356 --> 0:09:47.436 then when I saw you come on the screen, because 0:09:47.476 --> 0:09:49.836 about ninety seconds later, then I unmuted it and to 0:09:50.316 --> 0:09:52.276 listen to you. Appreciate it that I didn't hear you 0:09:52.316 --> 0:09:55.556 before the event. So did you do any pre analysis? 0:09:56.756 --> 0:09:59.636 I did, and what I tried to do there, because 0:09:59.916 --> 0:10:02.156 I don't think it serves the viewer to do like 0:10:02.396 --> 0:10:05.556 too much speculation about what he will say unless I've 0:10:05.596 --> 0:10:07.756 been told he's going to say X. So I was 0:10:07.796 --> 0:10:10.036 told it was going to be substance. I was told 0:10:10.796 --> 0:10:13.796 that he had spoken with the Attorney General before about this, 0:10:13.836 --> 0:10:16.556 and that the Attorney General wasn't blindsided by that. So 0:10:16.596 --> 0:10:19.596 those types of nuggets, you know, we have now an 0:10:19.596 --> 0:10:21.276 hour and a half of air to fill. So that's 0:10:21.276 --> 0:10:24.516 helpful to give the viewers sort of a little bit 0:10:24.516 --> 0:10:26.116 of a peak behind the curtain on that. But in 0:10:26.236 --> 0:10:29.036 terms of, you know, actually predicting the words that are 0:10:29.036 --> 0:10:30.436 going to come out of his mouth, I don't. I 0:10:30.516 --> 0:10:33.196 don't see any value in doing that unless I had 0:10:33.236 --> 0:10:35.836 gotten a copy of the remarks myself, which I hadn't, 0:10:36.156 --> 0:10:39.196 But I did try to give our audience a bit 0:10:39.196 --> 0:10:42.436 of a frame to understand why it mattered that he 0:10:42.516 --> 0:10:44.596 was speaking. And I think that that's what we try 0:10:44.636 --> 0:10:47.556 to do in all of these things, because most people 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:51.116 aren't following the minutia of this as you know closely, 0:10:51.196 --> 0:10:53.716 as all of us are sometimes in the media, and 0:10:53.756 --> 0:10:56.636 so I try my hardest to pull back and think, like, 0:10:56.836 --> 0:10:59.436 if someone is just tuning in right now and they 0:10:59.476 --> 0:11:02.596 haven't you been following every last indictment, but they know 0:11:02.676 --> 0:11:06.156 who Robert Muller is vaguely, and they see his face, 0:11:06.196 --> 0:11:07.636 and they see b roll of him on our air 0:11:07.636 --> 0:11:09.836 every day. Yeah, that's all there is of Mother's brow. 0:11:09.836 --> 0:11:12.356 There's no way roll, right, So why should it matter 0:11:12.356 --> 0:11:15.236 to the average person that he's decided to day is 0:11:15.316 --> 0:11:17.796 the day he wants to open his mouth? So now 0:11:17.796 --> 0:11:20.596 he speaks. Now he gets up there, he says his piece, 0:11:20.916 --> 0:11:24.596 he says he won't take questions, and you know, you 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:27.476 have at most a couple of minutes before you have 0:11:27.596 --> 0:11:30.556 to go on and offer an authoritative analysis. I noticed 0:11:30.596 --> 0:11:32.996 that CNN first went to a panel of people who 0:11:33.116 --> 0:11:35.676 kind of free associated No offense to them, They're doing 0:11:35.756 --> 0:11:39.236 their best, but they were kind of free associating, right, 0:11:39.236 --> 0:11:41.356 and then you came on and actually said something. Again, 0:11:41.716 --> 0:11:46.276 part of that part of the dance there is logistics, right, 0:11:46.316 --> 0:11:48.596 So the press conference happens on the seventh floor of 0:11:48.596 --> 0:11:51.356 the Justice Department. I then have to waddle back down 0:11:51.916 --> 0:11:55.596 to the first floor where my booth or slash closet is, 0:11:56.236 --> 0:11:59.156 and you know, get miked up, get everything on so 0:11:59.196 --> 0:12:01.236 that I can be back on air. So there has 0:12:01.276 --> 0:12:03.276 to be a little bit of a well, who's going 0:12:03.316 --> 0:12:05.156 to sort of fill the time until we can get 0:12:05.156 --> 0:12:07.636 the reporters and correspondence back on. And so a lot 0:12:07.636 --> 0:12:11.076 of times if you see panels, even on the day 0:12:11.116 --> 0:12:14.236 when the report was released, she'll notice when it first 0:12:14.236 --> 0:12:18.236 gets released, there is a panel of probably eight or 0:12:18.276 --> 0:12:22.116 ten people on set talking about it. But before Evan Perez, 0:12:22.116 --> 0:12:24.436 who's my colleague, who also covers the Justice Department, and 0:12:24.476 --> 0:12:27.316 I could get back to our positions to come on 0:12:27.356 --> 0:12:29.356 and talk about what the report actually says, because it 0:12:29.476 --> 0:12:31.396 just there just has to be something to fill the 0:12:31.476 --> 0:12:34.316 time until we can get in position. That's amazing. You know, 0:12:34.396 --> 0:12:36.516 in my fantasy, I somehow thought they were giving you 0:12:36.596 --> 0:12:38.476 a minute or twould actually think about what you were 0:12:38.476 --> 0:12:40.716 going to say. But of course that's totally wrong. They 0:12:40.796 --> 0:12:42.636 were just giving you time to walk down the stairs. 0:12:42.676 --> 0:12:44.996 I'm supposed to have done that. I'm supposed to have 0:12:45.076 --> 0:12:47.276 done that while I was walking or brushing my teeth 0:12:47.316 --> 0:12:51.196 this morning. My goodness. So then how do you do it? 0:12:51.236 --> 0:12:53.316 I mean, maybe it's too hard to explain. Maybe that's 0:12:53.356 --> 0:12:55.676 like you know, asking Michael Jordan, how does he make 0:12:55.676 --> 0:12:57.916 to move under the basket? But in reality, you have 0:12:57.956 --> 0:13:03.276 to assimilate a lot of information extremely quickly and provide 0:13:03.356 --> 0:13:05.756 not only a summary of it that's accurate, which is 0:13:05.756 --> 0:13:07.716 relevant in the molar context because we've learned that not 0:13:07.756 --> 0:13:11.956 all summaries are accurate, yes, and also an analysis so 0:13:11.996 --> 0:13:15.476 that the very first thing the listener or the viewer 0:13:15.716 --> 0:13:20.196 sees or hears is Laura explaining what just happened, and 0:13:20.316 --> 0:13:24.556 Laura also saying what it meant. And that's really different, 0:13:24.596 --> 0:13:27.156 we should just point out than traditional journalism, in which 0:13:27.156 --> 0:13:30.116 there were really two different jobs. One job was tell 0:13:30.196 --> 0:13:33.836 us what happened, and that was the fast in immediate job. Yeah, 0:13:33.876 --> 0:13:35.716 and the other job was tell us what it means. 0:13:35.756 --> 0:13:37.916 And you used to have a little more time to 0:13:38.076 --> 0:13:40.916 do that part of it. So how did you do that? 0:13:40.956 --> 0:13:42.516 I mean, what do you do on a regular basis 0:13:42.516 --> 0:13:45.756 when you know you have to analyze as well as described. Well, 0:13:45.756 --> 0:13:49.156 you know, part of the benefit is that because I 0:13:49.236 --> 0:13:52.676 just get to cover one beat, I spent an enormous 0:13:52.716 --> 0:13:54.956 amount of time thinking about this stuff all day long, 0:13:55.236 --> 0:13:57.836 and it kind of helps if you're sort of marinated 0:13:57.916 --> 0:14:00.236 over it for a long period of time. I think 0:14:00.516 --> 0:14:02.636 it gives you a little bit more context. It gives 0:14:02.676 --> 0:14:05.276 you a little bit more flavor of what's happening, and 0:14:05.316 --> 0:14:07.276 so it's not like you're just sort of just dropped 0:14:07.316 --> 0:14:11.316 in cold without having any sort of heads or tails 0:14:11.396 --> 0:14:17.196 of what's going on. And for the times when it's 0:14:17.236 --> 0:14:21.036 about doing both, as you said, what happened and the analysis, 0:14:21.076 --> 0:14:24.756 I actually like that better because what happened people can 0:14:24.796 --> 0:14:27.476 now find out, you know, in so many different ways, 0:14:27.516 --> 0:14:29.236 and so I hope part of the reason that they 0:14:29.276 --> 0:14:32.636 would tune in is for our analysis of how to 0:14:32.676 --> 0:14:34.556 make sense of it, to how to see it in 0:14:34.596 --> 0:14:37.636 the larger context, how to understand why it matters. I 0:14:37.676 --> 0:14:42.116 think that that's, you know, hopefully, what would differentiate myself 0:14:42.156 --> 0:14:46.196 from you know, another justice reporter on the beat. That 0:14:46.316 --> 0:14:49.196 should be sort of what we're offering as a brand. 0:14:49.676 --> 0:14:51.556 Can I ask about that? In fact, because one of 0:14:51.556 --> 0:14:55.316 the things that strikes me is actually there is almost 0:14:55.356 --> 0:14:59.076 no way anymore to find any source of news that 0:14:59.196 --> 0:15:03.076 would just tell you what happened without already hearing the analysis, 0:15:03.116 --> 0:15:04.396 at least if you want it in real time. And 0:15:04.436 --> 0:15:06.876 here's what I mean, nobody waits till the next morning 0:15:06.956 --> 0:15:09.756 to read the news story anymore. In fact, if I 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:12.196 want to know what's happening right now, I'm going to 0:15:12.316 --> 0:15:15.916 turn on a cable news network, and you know, I've 0:15:15.956 --> 0:15:19.636 got you guys, I've got MSNBC, I've got Fox News. 0:15:20.236 --> 0:15:26.316 All three will show Mueller live and then instantaneously all 0:15:26.436 --> 0:15:32.876 three will give you description plus analysis, and in many 0:15:32.956 --> 0:15:36.316 cases that will be the most important way that anyone 0:15:36.356 --> 0:15:38.836 can get that information. I mean, there's no there isn't 0:15:38.876 --> 0:15:41.836 a network, cable network that just says, we just tell 0:15:41.876 --> 0:15:43.876 you what happened, and we don't analyze it. And one 0:15:43.916 --> 0:15:45.516 of the results of that, and this is actually something 0:15:45.556 --> 0:15:49.636 that worries me, is that we get the news already analyzed. 0:15:49.716 --> 0:15:52.356 It already comes out analyzed. And if you watched Fox, 0:15:52.396 --> 0:15:55.316 which I then turn to, you've of course heard radically 0:15:55.316 --> 0:15:58.676 different analysis then you've heard on CNN or MSNBC. And 0:15:58.716 --> 0:16:02.316 that's true of every breaking story nowadays. And I do 0:16:02.716 --> 0:16:07.956 share that concern, especially when you know this stuff is 0:16:07.996 --> 0:16:13.676 not always straightforward. It's sometimes actually requires a beat to 0:16:13.676 --> 0:16:16.236 sort of process it and think about it. And a 0:16:16.276 --> 0:16:19.076 good example, I think is the day that the Attorney 0:16:19.116 --> 0:16:23.876 General Bill Barr released his four page memo on what 0:16:24.036 --> 0:16:28.716 he took away to be Muller's principal conclusions. And in 0:16:28.796 --> 0:16:32.036 subsequent days and weeks and everything that's followed, I think 0:16:32.076 --> 0:16:34.916 there's been a more fulsome understanding of what happened there. 0:16:35.956 --> 0:16:39.956 But in the first I would say, thirty minutes of 0:16:39.956 --> 0:16:42.356 that memo coming out, if you look at the coverage, 0:16:43.036 --> 0:16:46.996 the coverage is the special counsel has cleared the president 0:16:47.676 --> 0:16:52.476 of conspiracy or as he likes hiss a collusion. The 0:16:52.636 --> 0:17:00.036 analysis that Oler gives is far far from that. But 0:17:00.156 --> 0:17:04.716 because we were so quick and so lightning speed trying 0:17:04.716 --> 0:17:10.276 to get on the takeaway and I think trying to 0:17:10.316 --> 0:17:14.196 be actually as fair as possible to Trump, which I 0:17:14.276 --> 0:17:17.396 know many people may not think that that's what this was, 0:17:17.436 --> 0:17:19.876 but it actually I think was an attempt to say, 0:17:20.276 --> 0:17:22.036 you know, for two and a half years, the president's 0:17:22.036 --> 0:17:24.756 been under this cloud. If the Special Council's cleared him, 0:17:24.756 --> 0:17:26.516 we have to say that right away. And so I 0:17:26.556 --> 0:17:29.876 think there was actually a jump to do that without 0:17:29.956 --> 0:17:33.716 taking a second to really process what Muller was saying, 0:17:33.756 --> 0:17:36.076 and that I think it is an example of the 0:17:36.196 --> 0:17:38.276 danger of this. But aren't you being a little hard, 0:17:38.316 --> 0:17:40.076 a little too hard on yourself? I mean, you're leaving 0:17:40.076 --> 0:17:42.516 out in your description just now you're being so neutral. 0:17:42.556 --> 0:17:45.476 You left out the fact that Bar's memo, the Attorney 0:17:45.476 --> 0:17:50.996 General's memo misrepresented, at least in my view, the conclusions 0:17:51.036 --> 0:17:53.716 of the Muller report with respect to half of it. Right, So, 0:17:54.116 --> 0:17:57.236 just to remind listeners, the first half of the Mueller 0:17:57.876 --> 0:18:01.756 Documents report do say that there wasn't sufficient evidence of 0:18:02.076 --> 0:18:04.516 conspiracy or collusion to bring a charge. But then in 0:18:04.556 --> 0:18:07.596 the second half of the report. In fact, there's this 0:18:07.716 --> 0:18:11.156 very complicated business where there begins by saying that if 0:18:11.196 --> 0:18:13.476 we had concluded that the president didn't commit a crime, 0:18:13.476 --> 0:18:15.556 we would have said so, and we can't say that. 0:18:16.036 --> 0:18:17.876 And then he goes on to say, on the other hand, 0:18:18.316 --> 0:18:21.636 because we can't put a sitting president on trial, we're 0:18:21.716 --> 0:18:25.276 never going to say the president probably committed a crime. 0:18:25.516 --> 0:18:27.596 But read the details, where sure enough we lay out 0:18:27.636 --> 0:18:29.876 all the elements of the obstruction of justice, and in 0:18:29.916 --> 0:18:32.836 a handful of instances five or six, we actually do 0:18:32.916 --> 0:18:36.596 say that probably the president satisfied all those requirements. And 0:18:36.716 --> 0:18:39.356 none of that second half, none of it appears in 0:18:39.476 --> 0:18:42.956 Bar's summary of the principal conclusion. So didn't Bar play you. 0:18:43.276 --> 0:18:44.956 I mean, you can't really beat yourselves up for that. 0:18:44.956 --> 0:18:47.676 You trusted the Attorney General to some degree, and I 0:18:47.716 --> 0:18:52.356 wonder if we just should have been more like shown 0:18:52.396 --> 0:18:55.196 our work a little bit more to say, Look, this 0:18:55.316 --> 0:18:57.716 is a four page summary of even at that time 0:18:57.756 --> 0:18:59.236 we didn't know how long it is. So this is 0:18:59.276 --> 0:19:03.156 a four page summary of a report that could be massive, 0:19:03.516 --> 0:19:06.596 and just to provide I think the viewer with a 0:19:06.636 --> 0:19:10.396 little bit more understanding of what the limitations were, But 0:19:10.516 --> 0:19:13.756 even within that four page memo, I felt like there 0:19:13.756 --> 0:19:18.556 were things that may have gotten lost the initial sort 0:19:18.596 --> 0:19:21.156 of understanding of it. But then you again, you see 0:19:21.156 --> 0:19:24.716 it switch. So the language switches from there's no evidence 0:19:25.076 --> 0:19:31.276 of conspiracy to Muller couldn't find sufficient legal basis to 0:19:31.556 --> 0:19:35.716 charge members of the Trump campaign with a conspiracy with Russia. 0:19:35.716 --> 0:19:37.276 It's just you're not the same thing at all. Yet 0:19:37.356 --> 0:19:39.476 which are not the same thing. But if you notice, 0:19:39.556 --> 0:19:42.836 even in digital rights, from the Washington Post to US 0:19:42.876 --> 0:19:46.236 to the Times, there's a switch that happens in language 0:19:46.876 --> 0:19:49.036 once people take a minute to process it. So let 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:50.836 me ask you a question that I'm actually obsessed with, 0:19:50.956 --> 0:19:53.556 and it's actually steps outside of just the issue of 0:19:53.556 --> 0:19:55.396 how you make your judgments, And this actually goes to 0:19:55.996 --> 0:19:59.716 substance of what we think happened. Why do you think 0:19:59.716 --> 0:20:03.916 in your heart of hearts that Bob Muller opened the 0:20:03.996 --> 0:20:08.116 door in the way he did to have his conclusions 0:20:08.196 --> 0:20:10.116 distorted by bar And here's what I mean by that. 0:20:10.956 --> 0:20:14.156 There are plenty of ways that Muller could have written 0:20:14.236 --> 0:20:16.316 the second half of his report the Obstruction of Justice 0:20:16.316 --> 0:20:19.996 party to make it much clearer to an ordinary English speaker, 0:20:20.156 --> 0:20:23.316 not a crazy lawyer like we are, that there was 0:20:23.396 --> 0:20:28.196 substantial evidence to support the conclusion that the President committed 0:20:28.236 --> 0:20:31.156 an obstruction of justice crime, which unquestionably is the substance 0:20:31.156 --> 0:20:34.556 of what he's saying. Why did he bend over so 0:20:34.596 --> 0:20:38.436 far backwards to say we're not going to say that 0:20:38.596 --> 0:20:41.596 president committed a crime, even if we think so, because 0:20:41.796 --> 0:20:44.716 he can't defend himself. I mean, that's a that's a 0:20:44.836 --> 0:20:48.476 very questionable thing for him to have said. Remember his reason, 0:20:48.556 --> 0:20:50.916 his stated reason is it's not fair to accuse someone 0:20:50.916 --> 0:20:52.676 of a crime if they can't defend themselves in court. 0:20:53.196 --> 0:20:55.196 But of course the reality is Donald Trump can defend 0:20:55.276 --> 0:20:59.116 himself far more effectively in hablick and has than he 0:20:59.156 --> 0:21:01.196 ever could have defended himself in court. There are limits 0:21:01.196 --> 0:21:02.596 to what you can say in court. There's no limit 0:21:02.596 --> 0:21:03.836 to what you can say on Twitter, at least not 0:21:03.916 --> 0:21:06.996 if you're Donald Trump. So what happened with the obstruction 0:21:07.236 --> 0:21:12.316 section is one of the more fascinating and confounding elements 0:21:12.316 --> 0:21:15.356 of this and I share I share your obsession with it, 0:21:15.876 --> 0:21:18.676 especially knowing a little bit behind the scenes of how 0:21:18.676 --> 0:21:21.356 this all sort of went down. Tell us more about 0:21:21.356 --> 0:21:24.036 that too, Yeah, so at least as I understand it, 0:21:24.036 --> 0:21:26.836 and again you have your understanding of it is only 0:21:26.836 --> 0:21:29.676 as good as your sources and your skepticism, So as 0:21:29.716 --> 0:21:32.876 I understand it. For a long time, the Special Counsel's 0:21:32.876 --> 0:21:38.236 Office struggled with the obstruction issue. They went back and 0:21:38.236 --> 0:21:40.836