1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:23,156 --> 00:00:26,156 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:26,556 --> 00:00:32,116 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. Recently we got some big news. Robert Mueller, 4 00:00:32,276 --> 00:00:34,876 Speaker 1: despite saying he did not want to, is going to 5 00:00:34,916 --> 00:00:38,676 Speaker 1: testify in front of Congress about his investigation into Russian 6 00:00:38,716 --> 00:00:42,956 Speaker 1: interference in the twenty sixteen election and into possible obstruction 7 00:00:43,036 --> 00:00:46,796 Speaker 1: by President Donald Trump. When that happens, it's going to 8 00:00:46,836 --> 00:00:51,156 Speaker 1: be a media circus, which made me think, what's it 9 00:00:51,236 --> 00:00:53,996 Speaker 1: like to cover a story like that, How does it work? 10 00:00:54,796 --> 00:00:59,756 Speaker 1: What is the news behind the news? To talk about this? 11 00:00:59,876 --> 00:01:02,756 Speaker 1: We are incredibly fortunate to have with us Laura Jarrett, 12 00:01:02,796 --> 00:01:06,116 Speaker 1: one of my favorite people of all time. Laura covers 13 00:01:06,196 --> 00:01:09,636 Speaker 1: legal affairs for CNN, and she has the DUBI distinction 14 00:01:09,676 --> 00:01:13,196 Speaker 1: of having joined CNN at exactly the moment when the 15 00:01:13,236 --> 00:01:17,356 Speaker 1: Trump administration exploded into the headlines. Laura, you're either the 16 00:01:17,396 --> 00:01:20,156 Speaker 1: smartest person in the world were the unluckiest in terms 17 00:01:20,156 --> 00:01:22,956 Speaker 1: of when you started your job. It's not boring, it's 18 00:01:23,036 --> 00:01:27,156 Speaker 1: not boring. Before Laura joined CNN, she was a practicing 19 00:01:27,516 --> 00:01:31,076 Speaker 1: attorney in Chicago and private practice, doing all sorts of 20 00:01:31,196 --> 00:01:34,156 Speaker 1: high powered litigation. Not the sort of person who usually 21 00:01:34,196 --> 00:01:37,836 Speaker 1: turns into a journalist. And before that, she was a 22 00:01:37,916 --> 00:01:40,036 Speaker 1: law student at Harvard Law School, where I had the 23 00:01:40,076 --> 00:01:43,116 Speaker 1: great pleasure of meeting her, and she was the standout 24 00:01:43,156 --> 00:01:45,676 Speaker 1: student in a course I taught way back when when 25 00:01:45,716 --> 00:01:49,036 Speaker 1: Barack Obama was just running for president with John Jackson 26 00:01:49,316 --> 00:01:51,516 Speaker 1: of University of Pennsylvania, who's now the dean at the 27 00:01:51,756 --> 00:01:54,156 Speaker 1: end and Burg School at the University of Pennsylvania. And 28 00:01:55,156 --> 00:01:59,636 Speaker 1: I've been following her career with tremendous and totally undeserved pride, 29 00:01:59,676 --> 00:02:01,436 Speaker 1: and I'm thrilled that you could join us. Thank you, 30 00:02:01,516 --> 00:02:03,996 Speaker 1: Laura for being here, Thank you so much for having me. 31 00:02:04,636 --> 00:02:07,716 Speaker 1: So start at the beginning. You're sitting in your law firm, 32 00:02:07,956 --> 00:02:10,516 Speaker 1: you're earning your big law from salary, You're a mover 33 00:02:10,636 --> 00:02:16,436 Speaker 1: and shaker in Chicago. Why turn to journalism? Other than 34 00:02:16,476 --> 00:02:20,756 Speaker 1: the fact that I had a killer shoe collection, I 35 00:02:20,836 --> 00:02:25,156 Speaker 1: was miserable. And I think part of the issue is, 36 00:02:25,476 --> 00:02:28,756 Speaker 1: you know, unless you have a legal background or you 37 00:02:28,756 --> 00:02:32,116 Speaker 1: have parents that are at law firms, a lot of 38 00:02:32,116 --> 00:02:35,796 Speaker 1: people don't realize that much of the day is spent 39 00:02:36,076 --> 00:02:41,076 Speaker 1: on phone calls and in meetings planning for different eventualities, 40 00:02:41,076 --> 00:02:44,436 Speaker 1: but not actually digging into the substance of the law. 41 00:02:44,476 --> 00:02:48,796 Speaker 1: And so when by the time I left, I was 42 00:02:48,836 --> 00:02:51,236 Speaker 1: a sixth year associate, and which that means is I'm 43 00:02:51,236 --> 00:02:54,716 Speaker 1: basically managing other associates, but it also meant you're on 44 00:02:54,756 --> 00:02:56,676 Speaker 1: the cusp of partnership. I mean making it to the 45 00:02:56,716 --> 00:02:59,716 Speaker 1: sixth year. Usually people go for the go for the gold. Sure, 46 00:03:00,236 --> 00:03:05,996 Speaker 1: but that requires seeing somebody's life who is serving as 47 00:03:05,996 --> 00:03:08,476 Speaker 1: a partner and thinking, oh, you know what if I 48 00:03:08,516 --> 00:03:11,236 Speaker 1: just work a couple more years, work really hard, put 49 00:03:11,276 --> 00:03:13,916 Speaker 1: my head down, that's the life I can have. And 50 00:03:13,996 --> 00:03:16,596 Speaker 1: there was nobody for which I could point to and 51 00:03:16,636 --> 00:03:19,436 Speaker 1: say that's what I want. So why journalism and why 52 00:03:19,476 --> 00:03:21,756 Speaker 1: not going off to become a ski bumb Because I 53 00:03:21,836 --> 00:03:24,156 Speaker 1: knew that I still love the law, and I knew 54 00:03:24,196 --> 00:03:29,116 Speaker 1: that I still loved digging into legal issues, but I 55 00:03:29,196 --> 00:03:32,596 Speaker 1: didn't want to be an advocate anymore. I didn't like 56 00:03:32,716 --> 00:03:37,156 Speaker 1: the idea of having to just take a position coal hog, 57 00:03:37,396 --> 00:03:39,836 Speaker 1: no matter whether I thought it was right or dumb. 58 00:03:40,396 --> 00:03:44,716 Speaker 1: I was loathed to go in every day knowing that 59 00:03:44,716 --> 00:03:47,996 Speaker 1: this is what they're paying me to do. So whether 60 00:03:48,076 --> 00:03:50,516 Speaker 1: I think they're wrong or right, I'm supposed to argue 61 00:03:50,556 --> 00:03:53,116 Speaker 1: for it, and you're penalized if you're not as aggressive 62 00:03:53,116 --> 00:03:55,316 Speaker 1: as possible about it. And I wanted to just dig 63 00:03:55,356 --> 00:03:57,396 Speaker 1: in on the facts, and so I try to think, well, 64 00:03:57,396 --> 00:03:59,316 Speaker 1: what can I do where I can cover the facts, 65 00:03:59,956 --> 00:04:02,396 Speaker 1: I can cover legal issues, but do it in a 66 00:04:02,476 --> 00:04:05,756 Speaker 1: far more fulfilling, an interesting way. It turns out local 67 00:04:05,756 --> 00:04:08,796 Speaker 1: news in Chicago is very competitive. They really want you 68 00:04:08,836 --> 00:04:12,596 Speaker 1: to have you gone through the ranks of other local markets. 69 00:04:12,636 --> 00:04:18,036 Speaker 1: And it turns out more sort of nationwide networks, especially Cable, 70 00:04:18,116 --> 00:04:22,356 Speaker 1: are far more flexible about taking someone with an unorthodox 71 00:04:22,396 --> 00:04:25,636 Speaker 1: background that's actually fascinating. I would have had no idea 72 00:04:25,636 --> 00:04:27,476 Speaker 1: about that, and I was gonna my next question was 73 00:04:27,476 --> 00:04:30,236 Speaker 1: actually going to be how does someone who's a great 74 00:04:30,276 --> 00:04:34,356 Speaker 1: lawyer with an impeccable legal pedigree but has never actually 75 00:04:34,396 --> 00:04:36,156 Speaker 1: stood in front of a camera and explain things to 76 00:04:36,196 --> 00:04:41,196 Speaker 1: people before suddenly end up on air at CNN. So 77 00:04:41,356 --> 00:04:44,956 Speaker 1: part of why CNN ends up being such a great 78 00:04:45,036 --> 00:04:49,636 Speaker 1: fit for me, especially coming directly from Latham and Watkins 79 00:04:49,636 --> 00:04:52,876 Speaker 1: having never been on air once in my life, is 80 00:04:52,916 --> 00:04:57,556 Speaker 1: because it's on all day long, so they need people. 81 00:04:57,916 --> 00:05:01,156 Speaker 1: They need people on all day long, and there's so 82 00:05:01,236 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 1: much more willing to take a chance on you. And 83 00:05:03,556 --> 00:05:06,636 Speaker 1: it was really CNN that came up with this idea 84 00:05:06,636 --> 00:05:08,676 Speaker 1: of well, you have the legal background, why don't we 85 00:05:08,756 --> 00:05:11,436 Speaker 1: leverage why don't you cover the Justice Department? And again 86 00:05:12,236 --> 00:05:15,916 Speaker 1: they remember, this is the summer of twenty sixteen, So 87 00:05:15,956 --> 00:05:19,556 Speaker 1: the Justice Department that they envisioned for me was, I 88 00:05:19,596 --> 00:05:22,196 Speaker 1: would say, the pace was going to be slightly different, 89 00:05:22,236 --> 00:05:27,316 Speaker 1: and they thought, well, you know, in your account, your account, Laura. 90 00:05:27,396 --> 00:05:29,436 Speaker 1: They hired you because they had nothing to lose, because 91 00:05:29,436 --> 00:05:31,396 Speaker 1: if you weren't good at four am, they just would 92 00:05:31,436 --> 00:05:34,116 Speaker 1: never put you on, you know, at nine pm. And 93 00:05:34,156 --> 00:05:36,996 Speaker 1: they give you the very boring beat of the Hillary 94 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:41,316 Speaker 1: Clinton Justice Department, where nothing especially would happen, and antitrust 95 00:05:41,396 --> 00:05:44,636 Speaker 1: laws wouldn't be strictly enforced and you know, etc. Etc. Right, 96 00:05:44,836 --> 00:05:48,116 Speaker 1: we would be dealing with, you know, the twelve Benghazi 97 00:05:48,196 --> 00:05:51,236 Speaker 1: hearing and congressional document fights about stuff like that. So 98 00:05:51,276 --> 00:05:53,316 Speaker 1: you took a boring job and you got an interesting one. 99 00:05:53,596 --> 00:05:56,636 Speaker 1: I knew it would be interesting. I just didn't know 100 00:05:56,796 --> 00:06:00,116 Speaker 1: that it was going to be like this. Shall we say, Yeah, 101 00:06:00,276 --> 00:06:01,796 Speaker 1: I knew, I knew it was going to be great, 102 00:06:01,796 --> 00:06:02,836 Speaker 1: and I knew it was going to be the right 103 00:06:02,876 --> 00:06:05,356 Speaker 1: move for me, and it was certainly going to be 104 00:06:05,676 --> 00:06:10,396 Speaker 1: far more fulfilling the managing document review for large corporate litigation. 105 00:06:10,956 --> 00:06:13,196 Speaker 1: I had no idea it was going to be like this, 106 00:06:13,396 --> 00:06:16,516 Speaker 1: and it has turned out, I think, to be, you know, 107 00:06:17,196 --> 00:06:20,956 Speaker 1: such a memorable and incredible experience for me to have 108 00:06:21,076 --> 00:06:27,236 Speaker 1: as my first formative job in journalism. So tell me 109 00:06:27,276 --> 00:06:29,636 Speaker 1: about what it's actually like on a daily basis. I 110 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:31,436 Speaker 1: mean to those of us who are I would say 111 00:06:31,436 --> 00:06:33,796 Speaker 1: at the periphery of the media like me, I write 112 00:06:33,796 --> 00:06:35,636 Speaker 1: a column, but I'm not, you know, I don't have 113 00:06:35,676 --> 00:06:39,916 Speaker 1: to respond in every live moment. Sometimes Trump's legal news 114 00:06:40,596 --> 00:06:43,676 Speaker 1: seems like drinking from a fire hose. You know. Every 115 00:06:43,716 --> 00:06:46,756 Speaker 1: morning we wake up, we turn on CNN or we 116 00:06:46,876 --> 00:06:49,876 Speaker 1: open the newspaper, and we hear the latest story of 117 00:06:49,916 --> 00:06:52,316 Speaker 1: what's happened. But that means that if we're doing that, 118 00:06:52,716 --> 00:06:56,196 Speaker 1: you've already been up for hours before us. You've already 119 00:06:56,236 --> 00:06:59,956 Speaker 1: assimilated what's happened, and you've already presented it as a 120 00:06:59,956 --> 00:07:03,196 Speaker 1: as a story. So how do you usually first hear 121 00:07:03,716 --> 00:07:06,516 Speaker 1: that the president has done something or that the Department 122 00:07:06,516 --> 00:07:09,396 Speaker 1: of Justice has done something what's your usual, Well, do 123 00:07:09,396 --> 00:07:11,876 Speaker 1: you usually know about it before it even happens, So 124 00:07:12,036 --> 00:07:14,796 Speaker 1: it kind of depends on what the issue is. A 125 00:07:14,916 --> 00:07:18,916 Speaker 1: perfect example of where unfortunately we had no heads up 126 00:07:19,156 --> 00:07:22,076 Speaker 1: was when the Special Council decided to break his silence 127 00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:27,476 Speaker 1: after two years of stoicism. That day, walked into the 128 00:07:27,516 --> 00:07:31,476 Speaker 1: Justice Department at nine am, got some coffee, sat down, 129 00:07:31,756 --> 00:07:35,196 Speaker 1: was just sort of casually going through my emails, and 130 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:38,596 Speaker 1: what do we get is a media alert from the 131 00:07:38,636 --> 00:07:41,596 Speaker 1: Special Counsel's office that he's actually going to speak in 132 00:07:41,636 --> 00:07:44,876 Speaker 1: an hour and a half. And the challenge of something 133 00:07:44,916 --> 00:07:49,036 Speaker 1: like that is immediately everyone turns to you with what 134 00:07:49,316 --> 00:07:51,116 Speaker 1: is he going to say? And does that mean that 135 00:07:51,196 --> 00:07:53,996 Speaker 1: the people within CNN call you. They say, well, you're 136 00:07:53,996 --> 00:07:55,956 Speaker 1: on the Department of Justice, bead. We need to be 137 00:07:55,996 --> 00:07:57,716 Speaker 1: prepared for when he speaks in an hour and a half, 138 00:07:57,836 --> 00:07:59,876 Speaker 1: So we expect that you will already know what's going 139 00:07:59,916 --> 00:08:02,636 Speaker 1: to happen before it's happened. That's what they're saying too. Absolutely, 140 00:08:03,076 --> 00:08:05,716 Speaker 1: go find out exactly what he's going to say, and 141 00:08:05,756 --> 00:08:08,036 Speaker 1: then not only go out and find out what he's 142 00:08:08,036 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 1: going to say, but get on TV right now and 143 00:08:11,276 --> 00:08:14,236 Speaker 1: talk about it and tell us first find out and 144 00:08:14,236 --> 00:08:15,716 Speaker 1: then tell us about it. But actually you want to 145 00:08:15,716 --> 00:08:17,156 Speaker 1: we want to do that in reverse order, but really 146 00:08:17,196 --> 00:08:21,916 Speaker 1: maybe simultaneously. Maybe maybe maybe that And that's that is 147 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:25,436 Speaker 1: Again one of the challenges with how fast everything is 148 00:08:25,476 --> 00:08:28,716 Speaker 1: moving right now is while you are on trying to 149 00:08:28,756 --> 00:08:32,356 Speaker 1: report about what you just found out about, it's there's 150 00:08:32,356 --> 00:08:34,356 Speaker 1: still incoming. So why did you how did you do it? 151 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:36,356 Speaker 1: I mean tell us concretely, what did you do? Ninety 152 00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 1: minutes you get the email, suddenly you go into action. 153 00:08:39,236 --> 00:08:41,436 Speaker 1: What did you do for the next ninety minutes? So 154 00:08:41,516 --> 00:08:44,476 Speaker 1: for the next ninety minutes, I was literally running all 155 00:08:44,516 --> 00:08:46,876 Speaker 1: over the building, or I should say waddling, because I'm 156 00:08:46,876 --> 00:08:50,596 Speaker 1: eight and a half months pregnant difficulty. We don't make 157 00:08:50,596 --> 00:08:54,236 Speaker 1: this too easy for you, waddling all over the halls 158 00:08:54,276 --> 00:08:59,076 Speaker 1: of Justice, um knocking on doors to whomever I thought 159 00:08:59,116 --> 00:09:03,076 Speaker 1: would be best positioned to know about what exactly he's 160 00:09:03,076 --> 00:09:05,876 Speaker 1: going to say. And the challenge with someone like Mueller 161 00:09:06,636 --> 00:09:11,916 Speaker 1: is that group is very tight lipped and to say 162 00:09:11,916 --> 00:09:14,596 Speaker 1: the least, And so it's probably not that surprising that 163 00:09:14,596 --> 00:09:17,036 Speaker 1: we didn't even know he was going to speak that day, 164 00:09:17,796 --> 00:09:20,636 Speaker 1: because they don't, you know, frontload things with the press. 165 00:09:20,676 --> 00:09:23,236 Speaker 1: They just they don't operate like that. And so I 166 00:09:23,276 --> 00:09:26,196 Speaker 1: waddled around Justice and then I made as many phone 167 00:09:26,196 --> 00:09:30,636 Speaker 1: calls as possible while doing live hits, saying I don't 168 00:09:30,676 --> 00:09:33,156 Speaker 1: know what he's going to say, but it should be interesting. 169 00:09:33,516 --> 00:09:35,876 Speaker 1: And did you did you engage in any pre analysis? 170 00:09:35,916 --> 00:09:39,516 Speaker 1: I mean, I will say I watched the thing live 171 00:09:39,716 --> 00:09:43,276 Speaker 1: on CNN, and then I muted it to start writing 172 00:09:43,356 --> 00:09:45,356 Speaker 1: my own column explaining what I thought had happened. And 173 00:09:45,356 --> 00:09:47,436 Speaker 1: then when I saw you come on the screen, because 174 00:09:47,476 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: about ninety seconds later, then I unmuted it and to 175 00:09:50,316 --> 00:09:52,276 Speaker 1: listen to you. Appreciate it that I didn't hear you 176 00:09:52,316 --> 00:09:55,556 Speaker 1: before the event. So did you do any pre analysis? 177 00:09:56,756 --> 00:09:59,636 Speaker 1: I did, and what I tried to do there, because 178 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:02,156 Speaker 1: I don't think it serves the viewer to do like 179 00:10:02,396 --> 00:10:05,556 Speaker 1: too much speculation about what he will say unless I've 180 00:10:05,596 --> 00:10:07,756 Speaker 1: been told he's going to say X. So I was 181 00:10:07,796 --> 00:10:10,036 Speaker 1: told it was going to be substance. I was told 182 00:10:10,796 --> 00:10:13,796 Speaker 1: that he had spoken with the Attorney General before about this, 183 00:10:13,836 --> 00:10:16,556 Speaker 1: and that the Attorney General wasn't blindsided by that. So 184 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:19,596 Speaker 1: those types of nuggets, you know, we have now an 185 00:10:19,596 --> 00:10:21,276 Speaker 1: hour and a half of air to fill. So that's 186 00:10:21,276 --> 00:10:24,516 Speaker 1: helpful to give the viewers sort of a little bit 187 00:10:24,516 --> 00:10:26,116 Speaker 1: of a peak behind the curtain on that. But in 188 00:10:26,236 --> 00:10:29,036 Speaker 1: terms of, you know, actually predicting the words that are 189 00:10:29,036 --> 00:10:30,436 Speaker 1: going to come out of his mouth, I don't. I 190 00:10:30,516 --> 00:10:33,196 Speaker 1: don't see any value in doing that unless I had 191 00:10:33,236 --> 00:10:35,836 Speaker 1: gotten a copy of the remarks myself, which I hadn't, 192 00:10:36,156 --> 00:10:39,196 Speaker 1: But I did try to give our audience a bit 193 00:10:39,196 --> 00:10:42,436 Speaker 1: of a frame to understand why it mattered that he 194 00:10:42,516 --> 00:10:44,596 Speaker 1: was speaking. And I think that that's what we try 195 00:10:44,636 --> 00:10:47,556 Speaker 1: to do in all of these things, because most people 196 00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:51,116 Speaker 1: aren't following the minutia of this as you know closely, 197 00:10:51,196 --> 00:10:53,716 Speaker 1: as all of us are sometimes in the media, and 198 00:10:53,756 --> 00:10:56,636 Speaker 1: so I try my hardest to pull back and think, like, 199 00:10:56,836 --> 00:10:59,436 Speaker 1: if someone is just tuning in right now and they 200 00:10:59,476 --> 00:11:02,596 Speaker 1: haven't you been following every last indictment, but they know 201 00:11:02,676 --> 00:11:06,156 Speaker 1: who Robert Muller is vaguely, and they see his face, 202 00:11:06,196 --> 00:11:07,636 Speaker 1: and they see b roll of him on our air 203 00:11:07,636 --> 00:11:09,836 Speaker 1: every day. Yeah, that's all there is of Mother's brow. 204 00:11:09,836 --> 00:11:12,356 Speaker 1: There's no way roll, right, So why should it matter 205 00:11:12,356 --> 00:11:15,236 Speaker 1: to the average person that he's decided to day is 206 00:11:15,316 --> 00:11:17,796 Speaker 1: the day he wants to open his mouth? So now 207 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:20,596 Speaker 1: he speaks. Now he gets up there, he says his piece, 208 00:11:20,916 --> 00:11:24,596 Speaker 1: he says he won't take questions, and you know, you 209 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:27,476 Speaker 1: have at most a couple of minutes before you have 210 00:11:27,596 --> 00:11:30,556 Speaker 1: to go on and offer an authoritative analysis. I noticed 211 00:11:30,596 --> 00:11:32,996 Speaker 1: that CNN first went to a panel of people who 212 00:11:33,116 --> 00:11:35,676 Speaker 1: kind of free associated No offense to them, They're doing 213 00:11:35,756 --> 00:11:39,236 Speaker 1: their best, but they were kind of free associating, right, 214 00:11:39,236 --> 00:11:41,356 Speaker 1: and then you came on and actually said something. Again, 215 00:11:41,716 --> 00:11:46,276 Speaker 1: part of that part of the dance there is logistics, right, 216 00:11:46,316 --> 00:11:48,596 Speaker 1: So the press conference happens on the seventh floor of 217 00:11:48,596 --> 00:11:51,356 Speaker 1: the Justice Department. I then have to waddle back down 218 00:11:51,916 --> 00:11:55,596 Speaker 1: to the first floor where my booth or slash closet is, 219 00:11:56,236 --> 00:11:59,156 Speaker 1: and you know, get miked up, get everything on so 220 00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:01,236 Speaker 1: that I can be back on air. So there has 221 00:12:01,276 --> 00:12:03,276 Speaker 1: to be a little bit of a well, who's going 222 00:12:03,316 --> 00:12:05,156 Speaker 1: to sort of fill the time until we can get 223 00:12:05,156 --> 00:12:07,636 Speaker 1: the reporters and correspondence back on. And so a lot 224 00:12:07,636 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 1: of times if you see panels, even on the day 225 00:12:11,116 --> 00:12:14,236 Speaker 1: when the report was released, she'll notice when it first 226 00:12:14,236 --> 00:12:18,236 Speaker 1: gets released, there is a panel of probably eight or 227 00:12:18,276 --> 00:12:22,116 Speaker 1: ten people on set talking about it. But before Evan Perez, 228 00:12:22,116 --> 00:12:24,436 Speaker 1: who's my colleague, who also covers the Justice Department, and 229 00:12:24,476 --> 00:12:27,316 Speaker 1: I could get back to our positions to come on 230 00:12:27,356 --> 00:12:29,356 Speaker 1: and talk about what the report actually says, because it 231 00:12:29,476 --> 00:12:31,396 Speaker 1: just there just has to be something to fill the 232 00:12:31,476 --> 00:12:34,316 Speaker 1: time until we can get in position. That's amazing. You know, 233 00:12:34,396 --> 00:12:36,516 Speaker 1: in my fantasy, I somehow thought they were giving you 234 00:12:36,596 --> 00:12:38,476 Speaker 1: a minute or twould actually think about what you were 235 00:12:38,476 --> 00:12:40,716 Speaker 1: going to say. But of course that's totally wrong. They 236 00:12:40,796 --> 00:12:42,636 Speaker 1: were just giving you time to walk down the stairs. 237 00:12:42,676 --> 00:12:44,996 Speaker 1: I'm supposed to have done that. I'm supposed to have 238 00:12:45,076 --> 00:12:47,276 Speaker 1: done that while I was walking or brushing my teeth 239 00:12:47,316 --> 00:12:51,196 Speaker 1: this morning. My goodness. So then how do you do it? 240 00:12:51,236 --> 00:12:53,316 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's too hard to explain. Maybe that's 241 00:12:53,356 --> 00:12:55,676 Speaker 1: like you know, asking Michael Jordan, how does he make 242 00:12:55,676 --> 00:12:57,916 Speaker 1: to move under the basket? But in reality, you have 243 00:12:57,956 --> 00:13:03,276 Speaker 1: to assimilate a lot of information extremely quickly and provide 244 00:13:03,356 --> 00:13:05,756 Speaker 1: not only a summary of it that's accurate, which is 245 00:13:05,756 --> 00:13:07,716 Speaker 1: relevant in the molar context because we've learned that not 246 00:13:07,756 --> 00:13:11,956 Speaker 1: all summaries are accurate, yes, and also an analysis so 247 00:13:11,996 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 1: that the very first thing the listener or the viewer 248 00:13:15,716 --> 00:13:20,196 Speaker 1: sees or hears is Laura explaining what just happened, and 249 00:13:20,316 --> 00:13:24,556 Speaker 1: Laura also saying what it meant. And that's really different, 250 00:13:24,596 --> 00:13:27,156 Speaker 1: we should just point out than traditional journalism, in which 251 00:13:27,156 --> 00:13:30,116 Speaker 1: there were really two different jobs. One job was tell 252 00:13:30,196 --> 00:13:33,836 Speaker 1: us what happened, and that was the fast in immediate job. Yeah, 253 00:13:33,876 --> 00:13:35,716 Speaker 1: and the other job was tell us what it means. 254 00:13:35,756 --> 00:13:37,916 Speaker 1: And you used to have a little more time to 255 00:13:38,076 --> 00:13:40,916 Speaker 1: do that part of it. So how did you do that? 256 00:13:40,956 --> 00:13:42,516 Speaker 1: I mean, what do you do on a regular basis 257 00:13:42,516 --> 00:13:45,756 Speaker 1: when you know you have to analyze as well as described. Well, 258 00:13:45,756 --> 00:13:49,156 Speaker 1: you know, part of the benefit is that because I 259 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:52,676 Speaker 1: just get to cover one beat, I spent an enormous 260 00:13:52,716 --> 00:13:54,956 Speaker 1: amount of time thinking about this stuff all day long, 261 00:13:55,236 --> 00:13:57,836 Speaker 1: and it kind of helps if you're sort of marinated 262 00:13:57,916 --> 00:14:00,236 Speaker 1: over it for a long period of time. I think 263 00:14:00,516 --> 00:14:02,636 Speaker 1: it gives you a little bit more context. It gives 264 00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:05,276 Speaker 1: you a little bit more flavor of what's happening, and 265 00:14:05,316 --> 00:14:07,276 Speaker 1: so it's not like you're just sort of just dropped 266 00:14:07,316 --> 00:14:11,316 Speaker 1: in cold without having any sort of heads or tails 267 00:14:11,396 --> 00:14:17,196 Speaker 1: of what's going on. And for the times when it's 268 00:14:17,236 --> 00:14:21,036 Speaker 1: about doing both, as you said, what happened and the analysis, 269 00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:24,756 Speaker 1: I actually like that better because what happened people can 270 00:14:24,796 --> 00:14:27,476 Speaker 1: now find out, you know, in so many different ways, 271 00:14:27,516 --> 00:14:29,236 Speaker 1: and so I hope part of the reason that they 272 00:14:29,276 --> 00:14:32,636 Speaker 1: would tune in is for our analysis of how to 273 00:14:32,676 --> 00:14:34,556 Speaker 1: make sense of it, to how to see it in 274 00:14:34,596 --> 00:14:37,636 Speaker 1: the larger context, how to understand why it matters. I 275 00:14:37,676 --> 00:14:42,116 Speaker 1: think that that's, you know, hopefully, what would differentiate myself 276 00:14:42,156 --> 00:14:46,196 Speaker 1: from you know, another justice reporter on the beat. That 277 00:14:46,316 --> 00:14:49,196 Speaker 1: should be sort of what we're offering as a brand. 278 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:51,556 Speaker 1: Can I ask about that? In fact, because one of 279 00:14:51,556 --> 00:14:55,316 Speaker 1: the things that strikes me is actually there is almost 280 00:14:55,356 --> 00:14:59,076 Speaker 1: no way anymore to find any source of news that 281 00:14:59,196 --> 00:15:03,076 Speaker 1: would just tell you what happened without already hearing the analysis, 282 00:15:03,116 --> 00:15:04,396 Speaker 1: at least if you want it in real time. And 283 00:15:04,436 --> 00:15:06,876 Speaker 1: here's what I mean, nobody waits till the next morning 284 00:15:06,956 --> 00:15:09,756 Speaker 1: to read the news story anymore. In fact, if I 285 00:15:09,796 --> 00:15:12,196 Speaker 1: want to know what's happening right now, I'm going to 286 00:15:12,316 --> 00:15:15,916 Speaker 1: turn on a cable news network, and you know, I've 287 00:15:15,956 --> 00:15:19,636 Speaker 1: got you guys, I've got MSNBC, I've got Fox News. 288 00:15:20,236 --> 00:15:26,316 Speaker 1: All three will show Mueller live and then instantaneously all 289 00:15:26,436 --> 00:15:32,876 Speaker 1: three will give you description plus analysis, and in many 290 00:15:32,956 --> 00:15:36,316 Speaker 1: cases that will be the most important way that anyone 291 00:15:36,356 --> 00:15:38,836 Speaker 1: can get that information. I mean, there's no there isn't 292 00:15:38,876 --> 00:15:41,836 Speaker 1: a network, cable network that just says, we just tell 293 00:15:41,876 --> 00:15:43,876 Speaker 1: you what happened, and we don't analyze it. And one 294 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:45,516 Speaker 1: of the results of that, and this is actually something 295 00:15:45,556 --> 00:15:49,636 Speaker 1: that worries me, is that we get the news already analyzed. 296 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:52,356 Speaker 1: It already comes out analyzed. And if you watched Fox, 297 00:15:52,396 --> 00:15:55,316 Speaker 1: which I then turn to, you've of course heard radically 298 00:15:55,316 --> 00:15:58,676 Speaker 1: different analysis then you've heard on CNN or MSNBC. And 299 00:15:58,716 --> 00:16:02,316 Speaker 1: that's true of every breaking story nowadays. And I do 300 00:16:02,716 --> 00:16:07,956 Speaker 1: share that concern, especially when you know this stuff is 301 00:16:07,996 --> 00:16:13,676 Speaker 1: not always straightforward. It's sometimes actually requires a beat to 302 00:16:13,676 --> 00:16:16,236 Speaker 1: sort of process it and think about it. And a 303 00:16:16,276 --> 00:16:19,076 Speaker 1: good example, I think is the day that the Attorney 304 00:16:19,116 --> 00:16:23,876 Speaker 1: General Bill Barr released his four page memo on what 305 00:16:24,036 --> 00:16:28,716 Speaker 1: he took away to be Muller's principal conclusions. And in 306 00:16:28,796 --> 00:16:32,036 Speaker 1: subsequent days and weeks and everything that's followed, I think 307 00:16:32,076 --> 00:16:34,916 Speaker 1: there's been a more fulsome understanding of what happened there. 308 00:16:35,956 --> 00:16:39,956 Speaker 1: But in the first I would say, thirty minutes of 309 00:16:39,956 --> 00:16:42,356 Speaker 1: that memo coming out, if you look at the coverage, 310 00:16:43,036 --> 00:16:46,996 Speaker 1: the coverage is the special counsel has cleared the president 311 00:16:47,676 --> 00:16:52,476 Speaker 1: of conspiracy or as he likes hiss a collusion. The 312 00:16:52,636 --> 00:17:00,036 Speaker 1: analysis that Oler gives is far far from that. But 313 00:17:00,156 --> 00:17:04,716 Speaker 1: because we were so quick and so lightning speed trying 314 00:17:04,716 --> 00:17:10,276 Speaker 1: to get on the takeaway and I think trying to 315 00:17:10,316 --> 00:17:14,196 Speaker 1: be actually as fair as possible to Trump, which I 316 00:17:14,276 --> 00:17:17,396 Speaker 1: know many people may not think that that's what this was, 317 00:17:17,436 --> 00:17:19,876 Speaker 1: but it actually I think was an attempt to say, 318 00:17:20,276 --> 00:17:22,036 Speaker 1: you know, for two and a half years, the president's 319 00:17:22,036 --> 00:17:24,756 Speaker 1: been under this cloud. If the Special Council's cleared him, 320 00:17:24,756 --> 00:17:26,516 Speaker 1: we have to say that right away. And so I 321 00:17:26,556 --> 00:17:29,876 Speaker 1: think there was actually a jump to do that without 322 00:17:29,956 --> 00:17:33,716 Speaker 1: taking a second to really process what Muller was saying, 323 00:17:33,756 --> 00:17:36,076 Speaker 1: and that I think it is an example of the 324 00:17:36,196 --> 00:17:38,276 Speaker 1: danger of this. But aren't you being a little hard, 325 00:17:38,316 --> 00:17:40,076 Speaker 1: a little too hard on yourself? I mean, you're leaving 326 00:17:40,076 --> 00:17:42,516 Speaker 1: out in your description just now you're being so neutral. 327 00:17:42,556 --> 00:17:45,476 Speaker 1: You left out the fact that Bar's memo, the Attorney 328 00:17:45,476 --> 00:17:50,996 Speaker 1: General's memo misrepresented, at least in my view, the conclusions 329 00:17:51,036 --> 00:17:53,716 Speaker 1: of the Muller report with respect to half of it. Right, So, 330 00:17:54,116 --> 00:17:57,236 Speaker 1: just to remind listeners, the first half of the Mueller 331 00:17:57,876 --> 00:18:01,756 Speaker 1: Documents report do say that there wasn't sufficient evidence of 332 00:18:02,076 --> 00:18:04,516 Speaker 1: conspiracy or collusion to bring a charge. But then in 333 00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:07,596 Speaker 1: the second half of the report. In fact, there's this 334 00:18:07,716 --> 00:18:11,156 Speaker 1: very complicated business where there begins by saying that if 335 00:18:11,196 --> 00:18:13,476 Speaker 1: we had concluded that the president didn't commit a crime, 336 00:18:13,476 --> 00:18:15,556 Speaker 1: we would have said so, and we can't say that. 337 00:18:16,036 --> 00:18:17,876 Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say, on the other hand, 338 00:18:18,316 --> 00:18:21,636 Speaker 1: because we can't put a sitting president on trial, we're 339 00:18:21,716 --> 00:18:25,276 Speaker 1: never going to say the president probably committed a crime. 340 00:18:25,516 --> 00:18:27,596 Speaker 1: But read the details, where sure enough we lay out 341 00:18:27,636 --> 00:18:29,876 Speaker 1: all the elements of the obstruction of justice, and in 342 00:18:29,916 --> 00:18:32,836 Speaker 1: a handful of instances five or six, we actually do 343 00:18:32,916 --> 00:18:36,596 Speaker 1: say that probably the president satisfied all those requirements. And 344 00:18:36,716 --> 00:18:39,356 Speaker 1: none of that second half, none of it appears in 345 00:18:39,476 --> 00:18:42,956 Speaker 1: Bar's summary of the principal conclusion. So didn't Bar play you. 346 00:18:43,276 --> 00:18:44,956 Speaker 1: I mean, you can't really beat yourselves up for that. 347 00:18:44,956 --> 00:18:47,676 Speaker 1: You trusted the Attorney General to some degree, and I 348 00:18:47,716 --> 00:18:52,356 Speaker 1: wonder if we just should have been more like shown 349 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:55,196 Speaker 1: our work a little bit more to say, Look, this 350 00:18:55,316 --> 00:18:57,716 Speaker 1: is a four page summary of even at that time 351 00:18:57,756 --> 00:18:59,236 Speaker 1: we didn't know how long it is. So this is 352 00:18:59,276 --> 00:19:03,156 Speaker 1: a four page summary of a report that could be massive, 353 00:19:03,516 --> 00:19:06,596 Speaker 1: and just to provide I think the viewer with a 354 00:19:06,636 --> 00:19:10,396 Speaker 1: little bit more understanding of what the limitations were, But 355 00:19:10,516 --> 00:19:13,756 Speaker 1: even within that four page memo, I felt like there 356 00:19:13,756 --> 00:19:18,556 Speaker 1: were things that may have gotten lost the initial sort 357 00:19:18,596 --> 00:19:21,156 Speaker 1: of understanding of it. But then you again, you see 358 00:19:21,156 --> 00:19:24,716 Speaker 1: it switch. So the language switches from there's no evidence 359 00:19:25,076 --> 00:19:31,276 Speaker 1: of conspiracy to Muller couldn't find sufficient legal basis to 360 00:19:31,556 --> 00:19:35,716 Speaker 1: charge members of the Trump campaign with a conspiracy with Russia. 361 00:19:35,716 --> 00:19:37,276 Speaker 1: It's just you're not the same thing at all. Yet 362 00:19:37,356 --> 00:19:39,476 Speaker 1: which are not the same thing. But if you notice, 363 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:42,836 Speaker 1: even in digital rights, from the Washington Post to US 364 00:19:42,876 --> 00:19:46,236 Speaker 1: to the Times, there's a switch that happens in language 365 00:19:46,876 --> 00:19:49,036 Speaker 1: once people take a minute to process it. So let 366 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:50,836 Speaker 1: me ask you a question that I'm actually obsessed with, 367 00:19:50,956 --> 00:19:53,556 Speaker 1: and it's actually steps outside of just the issue of 368 00:19:53,556 --> 00:19:55,396 Speaker 1: how you make your judgments, And this actually goes to 369 00:19:55,996 --> 00:19:59,716 Speaker 1: substance of what we think happened. Why do you think 370 00:19:59,716 --> 00:20:03,916 Speaker 1: in your heart of hearts that Bob Muller opened the 371 00:20:03,996 --> 00:20:08,116 Speaker 1: door in the way he did to have his conclusions 372 00:20:08,196 --> 00:20:10,116 Speaker 1: distorted by bar And here's what I mean by that. 373 00:20:10,956 --> 00:20:14,156 Speaker 1: There are plenty of ways that Muller could have written 374 00:20:14,236 --> 00:20:16,316 Speaker 1: the second half of his report the Obstruction of Justice 375 00:20:16,316 --> 00:20:19,996 Speaker 1: party to make it much clearer to an ordinary English speaker, 376 00:20:20,156 --> 00:20:23,316 Speaker 1: not a crazy lawyer like we are, that there was 377 00:20:23,396 --> 00:20:28,196 Speaker 1: substantial evidence to support the conclusion that the President committed 378 00:20:28,236 --> 00:20:31,156 Speaker 1: an obstruction of justice crime, which unquestionably is the substance 379 00:20:31,156 --> 00:20:34,556 Speaker 1: of what he's saying. Why did he bend over so 380 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:38,436 Speaker 1: far backwards to say we're not going to say that 381 00:20:38,596 --> 00:20:41,596 Speaker 1: president committed a crime, even if we think so, because 382 00:20:41,796 --> 00:20:44,716 Speaker 1: he can't defend himself. I mean, that's a that's a 383 00:20:44,836 --> 00:20:48,476 Speaker 1: very questionable thing for him to have said. Remember his reason, 384 00:20:48,556 --> 00:20:50,916 Speaker 1: his stated reason is it's not fair to accuse someone 385 00:20:50,916 --> 00:20:52,676 Speaker 1: of a crime if they can't defend themselves in court. 386 00:20:53,196 --> 00:20:55,196 Speaker 1: But of course the reality is Donald Trump can defend 387 00:20:55,276 --> 00:20:59,116 Speaker 1: himself far more effectively in hablick and has than he 388 00:20:59,156 --> 00:21:01,196 Speaker 1: ever could have defended himself in court. There are limits 389 00:21:01,196 --> 00:21:02,596 Speaker 1: to what you can say in court. There's no limit 390 00:21:02,596 --> 00:21:03,836 Speaker 1: to what you can say on Twitter, at least not 391 00:21:03,916 --> 00:21:06,996 Speaker 1: if you're Donald Trump. So what happened with the obstruction 392 00:21:07,236 --> 00:21:12,316 Speaker 1: section is one of the more fascinating and confounding elements 393 00:21:12,316 --> 00:21:15,356 Speaker 1: of this and I share I share your obsession with it, 394 00:21:15,876 --> 00:21:18,676 Speaker 1: especially knowing a little bit behind the scenes of how 395 00:21:18,676 --> 00:21:21,356 Speaker 1: this all sort of went down. Tell us more about 396 00:21:21,356 --> 00:21:24,036 Speaker 1: that too, Yeah, so at least as I understand it, 397 00:21:24,036 --> 00:21:26,836 Speaker 1: and again you have your understanding of it is only 398 00:21:26,836 --> 00:21:29,676 Speaker 1: as good as your sources and your skepticism, So as 399 00:21:29,716 --> 00:21:32,876 Speaker 1: I understand it. For a long time, the Special Counsel's 400 00:21:32,876 --> 00:21:38,236 Speaker 1: Office struggled with the obstruction issue. They went back and 401 00:21:38,236 --> 00:21:40,836 Speaker 1: forth with it on Main Justice. They were being supervised 402 00:21:40,836 --> 00:21:43,876 Speaker 1: by the Deputy Attorney General's office, so they're in regular 403 00:21:43,956 --> 00:21:47,236 Speaker 1: contact with Main Justice, as we like to call it, 404 00:21:47,276 --> 00:21:50,556 Speaker 1: about these issues. They're doing research, you know, what are 405 00:21:50,596 --> 00:21:53,956 Speaker 1: applicable precedents to even look at this is obviously a 406 00:21:54,076 --> 00:21:57,236 Speaker 1: unique situation given that it's the president. They're trying to 407 00:21:57,236 --> 00:22:01,596 Speaker 1: get their arms around this. At some point they all 408 00:22:01,596 --> 00:22:04,316 Speaker 1: sit down meeting Mueller's whole team, not the whole team, 409 00:22:04,356 --> 00:22:09,116 Speaker 1: but the senior team. So Mueller himself, his top two deputies, 410 00:22:09,276 --> 00:22:11,636 Speaker 1: James Quarrels and Aaron Zebli, who's been his chiefest staff 411 00:22:11,716 --> 00:22:15,236 Speaker 1: essentially forever, They sit down with the Attorney General, the 412 00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:18,876 Speaker 1: Deputy Attorney General, Rod rosen Signed and other senior members 413 00:22:18,916 --> 00:22:24,316 Speaker 1: of DJ and Mueller's team says we can't get there 414 00:22:24,316 --> 00:22:31,156 Speaker 1: on obstruction, and Barr says, okay, are you saying that? 415 00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:35,556 Speaker 1: But for the Office of legal counsel that has provided 416 00:22:35,596 --> 00:22:40,196 Speaker 1: this decades old policy opinion essentially that says Canada died 417 00:22:40,276 --> 00:22:43,316 Speaker 1: sitting president. Are you saying but for that opinion? And, 418 00:22:43,636 --> 00:22:49,156 Speaker 1: according again to bar, Mueller says no. They asked three 419 00:22:49,156 --> 00:22:55,196 Speaker 1: different times, they're told no. They ask well, what is 420 00:22:55,276 --> 00:23:00,356 Speaker 1: your reasoning for how you're going to explain the obstruction issue? 421 00:23:00,556 --> 00:23:03,556 Speaker 1: And they say, well, we're still working on that. I 422 00:23:03,716 --> 00:23:07,076 Speaker 1: find that amazing that that late in the day. I mean, 423 00:23:07,076 --> 00:23:09,316 Speaker 1: because Barr wasn't atturne General for very long before the 424 00:23:09,316 --> 00:23:11,556 Speaker 1: report came out. It doesn't add up to me, and 425 00:23:11,676 --> 00:23:14,596 Speaker 1: it has not adequately I think, been fleshed out or 426 00:23:14,876 --> 00:23:17,196 Speaker 1: reported on it. And I still am trying to dig 427 00:23:17,236 --> 00:23:21,436 Speaker 1: into how do you have such an enormous breakdown in 428 00:23:21,476 --> 00:23:25,516 Speaker 1: communication such that the Special Counsel's office thinks we can't 429 00:23:25,596 --> 00:23:29,836 Speaker 1: even make a traditional judgment and everyone is looking around 430 00:23:29,836 --> 00:23:33,876 Speaker 1: surprised about that. How does that happen? It's not like 431 00:23:33,876 --> 00:23:36,756 Speaker 1: the OLC opinion was new, right. I mean, one thing 432 00:23:36,796 --> 00:23:41,556 Speaker 1: about your reporting there is that it suggests that the 433 00:23:41,676 --> 00:23:47,516 Speaker 1: rationale ultimately given by Muller for why he wasn't going 434 00:23:47,556 --> 00:23:50,956 Speaker 1: to address whether the president committed a crime wasn't really 435 00:23:50,996 --> 00:23:52,796 Speaker 1: the rationale that it had been driving them in the 436 00:23:52,836 --> 00:23:55,316 Speaker 1: course of the investigation. I mean that to me is 437 00:23:55,636 --> 00:23:57,956 Speaker 1: bombshell might be too strong a term, but it's very striking. 438 00:23:57,996 --> 00:24:00,036 Speaker 1: I mean it suggests that there was some other reason 439 00:24:00,236 --> 00:24:02,876 Speaker 1: for them to say no, we can't get there, and 440 00:24:02,956 --> 00:24:05,436 Speaker 1: that they only later came to the conclusion that the 441 00:24:05,476 --> 00:24:08,596 Speaker 1: way they should explain or justify themselves was by saying, well, 442 00:24:08,636 --> 00:24:12,076 Speaker 1: we can't say the president committed a crime. Right, And 443 00:24:12,116 --> 00:24:16,756 Speaker 1: the fairness issue in particular, how they get to that, 444 00:24:17,196 --> 00:24:19,316 Speaker 1: the worry that somehow it's unfair to the president to 445 00:24:19,316 --> 00:24:21,676 Speaker 1: say he committed a crime. Poor a little Donald Trump, 446 00:24:21,956 --> 00:24:25,596 Speaker 1: And how that wasn't discussed. You would think that that 447 00:24:25,596 --> 00:24:30,236 Speaker 1: would have been in constant consultation with DJ throughout the 448 00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:32,356 Speaker 1: two years, or that would just be a premise of 449 00:24:32,356 --> 00:24:34,316 Speaker 1: the investigation, right. I mean, if you think that there's 450 00:24:34,356 --> 00:24:37,996 Speaker 1: a legal matter you can't say the president committed a crime, 451 00:24:38,476 --> 00:24:41,156 Speaker 1: then that should affect everything you do in your investigation. 452 00:24:41,996 --> 00:24:44,516 Speaker 1: And I don't really even understand how it didn't affect 453 00:24:44,556 --> 00:24:48,276 Speaker 1: the conspiracy part of the investigation, other than perhaps what 454 00:24:48,396 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 1: maybe happened is they realized, Okay, we don't have enough 455 00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:56,476 Speaker 1: here for conspiracy. Given that we don't have enough for conspiracy, 456 00:24:57,156 --> 00:25:00,276 Speaker 1: maybe then that also affects our obstruction analysis. I don't 457 00:25:00,276 --> 00:25:02,716 Speaker 1: think they make that connection, but I sometimes wonder whether 458 00:25:02,756 --> 00:25:06,116 Speaker 1: that is what happened. You know, there's another theory that 459 00:25:06,476 --> 00:25:09,476 Speaker 1: they didn't want to put bar in a sort of 460 00:25:09,716 --> 00:25:12,316 Speaker 1: tough spot, saying we think the president committed a crime, 461 00:25:12,356 --> 00:25:14,716 Speaker 1: but we know we can't do anything about it. They 462 00:25:14,756 --> 00:25:16,156 Speaker 1: didn't have to worry about Bill Barr. He knows that 463 00:25:16,196 --> 00:25:19,596 Speaker 1: to take care of himself more. I know we're cheaping 464 00:25:19,636 --> 00:25:20,836 Speaker 1: the weeds here, but I just want to ask you 465 00:25:20,876 --> 00:25:23,756 Speaker 1: one more thing about that that big climactic meeting that 466 00:25:23,796 --> 00:25:26,796 Speaker 1: you're describing and obviously only answered if your sources will 467 00:25:26,876 --> 00:25:29,836 Speaker 1: let you. Do you know about that meeting at all 468 00:25:29,956 --> 00:25:32,956 Speaker 1: from people who might be more inclined towards Mueller as 469 00:25:32,956 --> 00:25:35,596 Speaker 1: opposed to people who are more on the bar side 470 00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:38,276 Speaker 1: of the fence. I think we now have it from 471 00:25:38,356 --> 00:25:42,756 Speaker 1: multiple sources that I feel confident with the facts of it, 472 00:25:43,036 --> 00:25:45,276 Speaker 1: that's what happened. That that's what happened in the meeting, 473 00:25:45,356 --> 00:25:50,076 Speaker 1: I think from I think from the Mueller perspective, they 474 00:25:50,116 --> 00:25:53,556 Speaker 1: think that and you notice this again in the press 475 00:25:53,596 --> 00:25:55,836 Speaker 1: conference that Bar does on the day the reporters released, 476 00:25:55,876 --> 00:25:58,516 Speaker 1: I asked him about the OLC memo, and I asked 477 00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:01,916 Speaker 1: him about whether I asked him about the impact of it, 478 00:26:01,956 --> 00:26:03,956 Speaker 1: and you know, whether I had any effect on the analysis. 479 00:26:03,996 --> 00:26:06,076 Speaker 1: And again he goes back to the butt for formulation. 480 00:26:06,676 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 1: And the problem with the butt for formulation is one 481 00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:12,316 Speaker 1: that wasn't how Mueller was looking at it, or at 482 00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:16,956 Speaker 1: least that's not how the team I think, formulates their 483 00:26:16,996 --> 00:26:19,756 Speaker 1: explanation for it. And indeed, Barr has since dug in 484 00:26:19,836 --> 00:26:22,356 Speaker 1: on that, and he has said he actually has gone 485 00:26:22,356 --> 00:26:24,716 Speaker 1: so far as to say he doesn't buy the fairness explanation, 486 00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:27,676 Speaker 1: that in fact, it would have been perfectly fine to 487 00:26:27,756 --> 00:26:30,396 Speaker 1: say that the president committed the following acts, which cons 488 00:26:30,436 --> 00:26:33,836 Speaker 1: studio crime, which is kind of I mean, it's incredibly clever. 489 00:26:33,916 --> 00:26:35,716 Speaker 1: I mean, I am never I never ceased to be 490 00:26:35,716 --> 00:26:38,476 Speaker 1: impressed by Bar's cleverness, just as I never ceased to 491 00:26:38,476 --> 00:26:41,476 Speaker 1: be impressed by Mueller's strong belief that the year is 492 00:26:41,556 --> 00:26:44,196 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five. Yeah, and that he doesn't have to 493 00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:46,956 Speaker 1: play it by contemporary rules. But you know, I think 494 00:26:46,956 --> 00:26:49,916 Speaker 1: that Bar is correct to say that that fairness justification 495 00:26:50,036 --> 00:26:53,996 Speaker 1: makes no sense. But he's ironically used that to make 496 00:26:53,996 --> 00:26:57,236 Speaker 1: the president look better. Right, He says, well, they could 497 00:26:57,276 --> 00:26:58,836 Speaker 1: have said it, I don't think it would have been unfair. 498 00:26:58,916 --> 00:27:00,556 Speaker 1: And so therefore the fact that they didn't say the 499 00:27:00,596 --> 00:27:03,796 Speaker 1: president committed a crime essentially vindicates the president. And here 500 00:27:03,876 --> 00:27:07,116 Speaker 1: is Mueller saying basically one hundred and eighty degrees the opposite, 501 00:27:07,756 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 1: and the Special Counsel's team, i think again thinks to 502 00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 1: the extent that Barr was asking, but for um this 503 00:27:16,756 --> 00:27:20,556 Speaker 1: DJ guidance, would you have found the president committed crime? 504 00:27:20,596 --> 00:27:23,036 Speaker 1: They would say that was true. The answer to that 505 00:27:23,116 --> 00:27:26,476 Speaker 1: is no, because we didn't even we didn't even go there, 506 00:27:26,556 --> 00:27:32,716 Speaker 1: we didn't even start that analysis. Right. But again, that's right, right, 507 00:27:32,716 --> 00:27:37,356 Speaker 1: that's literally not true if you actually read the report, right, 508 00:27:37,396 --> 00:27:41,196 Speaker 1: they go through every element of the crime and they 509 00:27:41,236 --> 00:27:43,676 Speaker 1: say whether it was satisfied or not. I mean so right. 510 00:27:44,036 --> 00:27:45,396 Speaker 1: The way I've tried to talk about this with my 511 00:27:45,436 --> 00:27:48,316 Speaker 1: students is, as you will recall painfully, I'm sure you know, 512 00:27:48,356 --> 00:27:50,396 Speaker 1: when we teach legal writing in law school, we tell 513 00:27:50,436 --> 00:27:52,356 Speaker 1: people it's got there. There are these different steps you 514 00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:54,436 Speaker 1: have to follow. You stayed the issue, you state the rule, 515 00:27:54,836 --> 00:27:56,676 Speaker 1: you apply the rule, and then you write a conclusion, 516 00:27:57,236 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 1: and this had all of those things except the conclusion. 517 00:28:00,436 --> 00:28:02,996 Speaker 1: There's just no conclusion there. So they did the analysis, 518 00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:06,116 Speaker 1: they just don't say the line of conclusion, and of course, 519 00:28:06,156 --> 00:28:09,756 Speaker 1: the most curious line of the entire thing, saying although 520 00:28:09,756 --> 00:28:12,676 Speaker 1: the fairness thing might I don't know, it might be 521 00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:16,436 Speaker 1: a tie, here is the line that if we could 522 00:28:16,516 --> 00:28:19,556 Speaker 1: exonerate him, we would so state yes, which is very 523 00:28:19,676 --> 00:28:23,036 Speaker 1: very strange. I mean that to me is just what 524 00:28:23,876 --> 00:28:28,316 Speaker 1: is that what people hate lawyers? That's why people hate lawyers, 525 00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:32,036 Speaker 1: because only a lawyer could have thought of that sentence. Right, 526 00:28:32,036 --> 00:28:34,956 Speaker 1: we're not exonerating you, and if we could exonerate you, 527 00:28:34,956 --> 00:28:37,876 Speaker 1: we would exonerate you. But we're also not not exonerating you. 528 00:28:38,116 --> 00:28:40,476 Speaker 1: I mean, the only lawyers talk that way. No human 529 00:28:40,516 --> 00:28:42,276 Speaker 1: being has ever talked that way before coming through the 530 00:28:42,276 --> 00:28:44,596 Speaker 1: gates of a law school. But for the average I 531 00:28:44,636 --> 00:28:48,676 Speaker 1: think for the average lay person, and certainly for our viewers, 532 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:53,716 Speaker 1: that is cat nip because politically it's saying, I can't 533 00:28:53,716 --> 00:28:56,876 Speaker 1: tell you whether he committed a crime or not. Laurie, 534 00:28:57,076 --> 00:28:59,876 Speaker 1: you're from a political background, You're you're from a political family, 535 00:29:00,036 --> 00:29:02,956 Speaker 1: and you you're no DC very very well and you've 536 00:29:02,956 --> 00:29:05,636 Speaker 1: seen it in different eras now and two very different eras. 537 00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:09,316 Speaker 1: Do you think that the way the way we think 538 00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:12,596 Speaker 1: about politics and the fights that we have in Washington 539 00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:16,196 Speaker 1: and beyond have really changed in the Trump barra compared 540 00:29:16,236 --> 00:29:18,236 Speaker 1: to the Obama era or do you think it's it's 541 00:29:18,236 --> 00:29:20,436 Speaker 1: actually deceptive to think of them as different, that we 542 00:29:20,436 --> 00:29:23,236 Speaker 1: were already so profound the partisan in the in the 543 00:29:23,276 --> 00:29:25,796 Speaker 1: Obama era that you know that this is just a 544 00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:29,836 Speaker 1: natural evolution. You know, that's a great question. I don't 545 00:29:29,836 --> 00:29:33,956 Speaker 1: I don't know that it has changed. I certainly think 546 00:29:33,956 --> 00:29:38,956 Speaker 1: that the media's sort of role in this dance has changed. 547 00:29:38,996 --> 00:29:43,036 Speaker 1: And I was sort of always advised when I first 548 00:29:43,036 --> 00:29:44,836 Speaker 1: took this job and I've seen it throughout is you 549 00:29:44,836 --> 00:29:47,476 Speaker 1: know that you never want to become the story. We're 550 00:29:47,476 --> 00:29:51,756 Speaker 1: supposed to be covering the news. And because of for 551 00:29:51,916 --> 00:29:54,716 Speaker 1: better or worse, how things have gone over the last 552 00:29:54,876 --> 00:29:59,516 Speaker 1: two and a half years, the media has become so 553 00:29:59,636 --> 00:30:04,836 Speaker 1: much part of the narrative. And because of Trump, you know, 554 00:30:04,916 --> 00:30:08,796 Speaker 1: calling on fifty million people on his Twitter feed to 555 00:30:08,916 --> 00:30:13,036 Speaker 1: his actually boycott an entire network which happens to be 556 00:30:13,076 --> 00:30:15,436 Speaker 1: your network. But I mean, well, you're describing is not that. 557 00:30:15,556 --> 00:30:17,996 Speaker 1: I mean the media, you know, CNN doesn't want to 558 00:30:17,996 --> 00:30:19,916 Speaker 1: be part of the story necessarily, or maybe didn't want 559 00:30:19,916 --> 00:30:21,756 Speaker 1: to at least at the beginning. And Donald Trump just 560 00:30:21,796 --> 00:30:24,316 Speaker 1: didn't allow that option, right, right, He made he knew 561 00:30:24,436 --> 00:30:26,156 Speaker 1: very effectively that he could make the media part of 562 00:30:26,156 --> 00:30:30,036 Speaker 1: the story. And at some level the media does love that. Sure. 563 00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:33,356 Speaker 1: But what I what I what I've noticed and what 564 00:30:33,516 --> 00:30:36,716 Speaker 1: I struggle with is that, of course everything in DC 565 00:30:36,876 --> 00:30:40,956 Speaker 1: is always partisan, but the media ends up getting accused 566 00:30:40,956 --> 00:30:45,556 Speaker 1: of being partisan because it's doing his job and it's 567 00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:50,156 Speaker 1: asking questions, and somehow just even raising the question is 568 00:30:50,196 --> 00:30:53,156 Speaker 1: seen as taking aside sometimes or even just a fact 569 00:30:53,276 --> 00:30:57,196 Speaker 1: checking exercise is seen as sort of adversarial. Is there 570 00:30:57,196 --> 00:31:00,956 Speaker 1: any going back? I mean you mentioned earlier or something 571 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:03,996 Speaker 1: was you mentioned earlier? You know, the claim of the 572 00:31:04,396 --> 00:31:06,956 Speaker 1: Mother report that they couldn't exonerate the president is katnip 573 00:31:07,076 --> 00:31:10,356 Speaker 1: for your viewers, That's right, It's for CNNs viewers. It's 574 00:31:10,356 --> 00:31:13,196 Speaker 1: not cattinet for Fox viewers. Right. We recognize, and you 575 00:31:13,236 --> 00:31:15,356 Speaker 1: guys recognize as part of your daily lives that there 576 00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:18,196 Speaker 1: are there are different viewers for these for these networks. 577 00:31:18,716 --> 00:31:20,356 Speaker 1: So is there any I mean, is there any return. 578 00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:22,476 Speaker 1: I mean to me, it reminds me of you know, 579 00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:25,436 Speaker 1: the early eighteen hundreds when newspapers were starting to rise 580 00:31:25,516 --> 00:31:27,436 Speaker 1: up in the United States, first national newspapers were coming 581 00:31:27,476 --> 00:31:29,436 Speaker 1: to existence, and they were completely partisan. There was a 582 00:31:29,436 --> 00:31:32,356 Speaker 1: federalist newspaper and a Republican newspaper. And I sort of 583 00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:34,836 Speaker 1: feel that we're there again. Now. Do you see a 584 00:31:34,876 --> 00:31:39,156 Speaker 1: path back to neutrality or objectivity for the media in 585 00:31:39,276 --> 00:31:43,796 Speaker 1: terms of the partisanship. I think that I think that 586 00:31:43,836 --> 00:31:47,316 Speaker 1: it has the possibility to change, and I certainly think 587 00:31:47,396 --> 00:31:51,876 Speaker 1: that the media right now is trying its darnedest to 588 00:31:52,596 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 1: hold people account and figure out how to do that 589 00:31:55,556 --> 00:31:58,876 Speaker 1: in a way that does not come across as that 590 00:31:58,956 --> 00:32:01,556 Speaker 1: we have our thumb on the scale either way. I 591 00:32:01,556 --> 00:32:04,476 Speaker 1: think the problem is that do people believe us when 592 00:32:04,516 --> 00:32:07,636 Speaker 1: we when we say that, right, do viewers trust it, 593 00:32:08,156 --> 00:32:13,036 Speaker 1: especially if politicians are saying otherwise, If politicians are you know, 594 00:32:13,956 --> 00:32:17,916 Speaker 1: convincingly making an argument that actually, know, we're just part 595 00:32:17,956 --> 00:32:20,196 Speaker 1: of this machine and we're just you know, in the 596 00:32:20,196 --> 00:32:22,756 Speaker 1: pocket of the DNC or the RNC or it is, 597 00:32:22,796 --> 00:32:25,316 Speaker 1: if we're just you know, pawns to be used in 598 00:32:25,356 --> 00:32:29,996 Speaker 1: this If they make that argument effectively, and they make 599 00:32:30,036 --> 00:32:33,116 Speaker 1: an argument about fake news all day long, and people 600 00:32:33,156 --> 00:32:35,476 Speaker 1: hear a drumbeat of that. I do worry that, you know, 601 00:32:35,556 --> 00:32:37,436 Speaker 1: some of that gets through, But I think we just 602 00:32:37,476 --> 00:32:41,476 Speaker 1: have to keep doing our jobs and hope that at 603 00:32:41,476 --> 00:32:44,476 Speaker 1: some point people will be able to cut through some 604 00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:46,676 Speaker 1: of the noise. But I don't think that we figure 605 00:32:46,716 --> 00:32:48,756 Speaker 1: it out a perfect solution for it yet. I mean, 606 00:32:48,796 --> 00:32:50,316 Speaker 1: in a way, you're just like you're like the Department 607 00:32:50,316 --> 00:32:53,156 Speaker 1: of Justice that you cover. They've also experienced the present 608 00:32:53,196 --> 00:32:56,076 Speaker 1: saying again and again and again and again, both before 609 00:32:56,076 --> 00:32:59,356 Speaker 1: and he went into office and since then that they're biased, 610 00:32:59,396 --> 00:33:03,676 Speaker 1: that they're not objective, that they're not neutral, and he's convinced. 611 00:33:03,676 --> 00:33:06,276 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people that prosecution and investigation 612 00:33:06,316 --> 00:33:10,316 Speaker 1: are politicized, even though many people inside world thought otherwise, 613 00:33:10,356 --> 00:33:13,996 Speaker 1: And ditto for news. So I guess that you and 614 00:33:14,036 --> 00:33:15,476 Speaker 1: the people that you're covering are going to have a 615 00:33:16,116 --> 00:33:18,876 Speaker 1: joint challenge going forward, right, And I think that there 616 00:33:18,916 --> 00:33:22,356 Speaker 1: has been a fair um, you know, criticism by some 617 00:33:22,516 --> 00:33:24,756 Speaker 1: that DJ is playing by an old set of rules, 618 00:33:24,876 --> 00:33:27,236 Speaker 1: or at least Muller was playing by an old set 619 00:33:27,236 --> 00:33:31,196 Speaker 1: of rules, and Trump sort of you know, has reinvented 620 00:33:31,236 --> 00:33:33,436 Speaker 1: the wheel. But I don't I don't know what the 621 00:33:33,476 --> 00:33:37,156 Speaker 1: alternative is for the media, right I don't. I don't 622 00:33:37,196 --> 00:33:40,716 Speaker 1: know that that we have an alternative other than to 623 00:33:40,876 --> 00:33:43,836 Speaker 1: keep doing what we're doing and just try to keep 624 00:33:43,836 --> 00:33:47,436 Speaker 1: doing it better and be as accurate as possible. You know, 625 00:33:47,476 --> 00:33:52,396 Speaker 1: all we can do is just keep moving forward. Laura. 626 00:33:52,436 --> 00:33:55,596 Speaker 1: I feel like you took us through the full experience 627 00:33:55,596 --> 00:33:59,076 Speaker 1: that you've had over the last yet, from that's not 628 00:33:59,116 --> 00:34:02,036 Speaker 1: over yet, from day one and the shock of the 629 00:34:02,076 --> 00:34:05,076 Speaker 1: new all the way to prime time day after day 630 00:34:05,116 --> 00:34:07,796 Speaker 1: after day, covering the most pressing and exciting story we have. 631 00:34:07,876 --> 00:34:10,556 Speaker 1: Thank you, They thank you so much. I appreciate it. 632 00:34:16,596 --> 00:34:19,276 Speaker 1: Talking to Laura about the process of covering the Department 633 00:34:19,276 --> 00:34:22,836 Speaker 1: of Justice in this crazy time of Trump and Muller 634 00:34:22,956 --> 00:34:26,716 Speaker 1: and Bar, I'm left with partly a sense of gratitude, 635 00:34:26,796 --> 00:34:29,596 Speaker 1: gratitude that there are reporters out there who have the 636 00:34:29,676 --> 00:34:32,876 Speaker 1: legal chops to analyze the issues and the instinct to 637 00:34:32,956 --> 00:34:36,556 Speaker 1: make the story come to life. We also are really 638 00:34:36,556 --> 00:34:39,716 Speaker 1: trying to understand the internal motivations of people who don't 639 00:34:39,756 --> 00:34:43,276 Speaker 1: want us to know their internal motivations, and that requires 640 00:34:43,436 --> 00:34:47,876 Speaker 1: strong journalism going forward. We're going to have to avoid 641 00:34:47,916 --> 00:34:50,556 Speaker 1: the kind of rush to judgment that the media has 642 00:34:50,556 --> 00:34:53,956 Speaker 1: found itself pulled into, and which, according to Laura, was 643 00:34:54,036 --> 00:34:56,876 Speaker 1: in fact a real factor in their reporting in the 644 00:34:56,956 --> 00:35:00,276 Speaker 1: aftermath of the summaries of the Mueller Report produced by 645 00:35:00,276 --> 00:35:04,236 Speaker 1: Attorney General bar When Bob Muller testifies in front of Congress, 646 00:35:04,316 --> 00:35:06,276 Speaker 1: we're going to have an instinct to run right out 647 00:35:06,316 --> 00:35:09,636 Speaker 1: and say exactly that we know all of the relevant 648 00:35:09,676 --> 00:35:12,436 Speaker 1: parts of his thinking. We won't. We need to take 649 00:35:12,436 --> 00:35:14,716 Speaker 1: a deep breath. We need to get behind the stories. 650 00:35:14,916 --> 00:35:17,116 Speaker 1: We need to do the deeper reporting, and then from 651 00:35:17,156 --> 00:35:19,716 Speaker 1: that deeper reporting, we have to go to a more 652 00:35:19,836 --> 00:35:24,156 Speaker 1: profound analysis, one that locates the problems of our current 653 00:35:24,196 --> 00:35:27,996 Speaker 1: historical moment against the backdrop of the separation of powers 654 00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:30,836 Speaker 1: and the investigation of a sitting present of the United 655 00:35:30,876 --> 00:35:39,716 Speaker 1: States for potential crimes including obstruction of justice. Deep Background 656 00:35:39,796 --> 00:35:42,396 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is 657 00:35:42,476 --> 00:35:46,396 Speaker 1: Lydia Ganecott, with engineering by Jason Gambrel and Jason Rostkowski. 658 00:35:46,676 --> 00:35:49,756 Speaker 1: Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music is composed 659 00:35:49,796 --> 00:35:53,636 Speaker 1: by Luis GERA special thanks to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm Gladwell, 660 00:35:53,756 --> 00:35:56,956 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Lobel. I'm Noah Feldman. You can 661 00:35:56,956 --> 00:36:00,116 Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. This is 662 00:36:00,196 --> 00:36:00,996 Speaker 1: deep background