Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Nobody likes
Speaker 1: talking about online harassment. When I first started the podcast
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, I specifically wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about all the cool things that women, queer folks,
Speaker 1: black folks, and other underrepresented voices are doing on the Internet.
Speaker 1: And as much as I wanted to focus on the positive,
Speaker 1: the harassment we face online is difficult to ignore. Earlier
Speaker 1: this month, Chrissie Teagan left Twitter. This was kind of
Speaker 1: a big deal. She's someone who was once called the
Speaker 1: Mayor of Twitter because she's such a prolific user. She
Speaker 1: spoke at Twitter headquarters for a company event and on Instagram.
Speaker 1: She made it clear that she didn't blame Twitter for
Speaker 1: feeling like she had to leave the platform. She said
Speaker 1: that Twitter staff had actually reached out and worked with
Speaker 1: her and her team to deal with the barrage of
Speaker 1: harassment she faces, and I'm sure they did. Chrissy Tigan
Speaker 1: is rich and famous and well connected. What about the
Speaker 1: rest of us who aren't. We've seen a wave of
Speaker 1: online harassment come for women journalists too. On Fox News,
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson did two nights of segments pretty much just
Speaker 1: making fun of New York Times Internet culture reporter Taylor
Speaker 1: Lawrenz for, as he put it, pretending to be oppressed
Speaker 1: after she tweeted for International Women's Day, please consider supporting
Speaker 1: women and during online harassment. After Times reporter Rachel Abrams
Speaker 1: did a report on the conservative news network own the network,
Speaker 1: bataliated by putting her personal cell phone number on the
Speaker 1: air and encouraging viewers to contact her, a pretty obvious
Speaker 1: attempt at inciting harassment. And it's not just people with
Speaker 1: public profiles harassment. It's just a reality when you're a
Speaker 1: marginalized person who puts their opinion or words online. If
Speaker 1: you're a woman, or a person of color or a
Speaker 1: queer person who's listening, you've probably already dealt with it.
Speaker 1: I know I've dealt with it, and it's awkward to
Speaker 1: talk about, but writer Liz Lenz says that we need
Speaker 1: to start talking about it. In her piece called When
Speaker 1: the Mob Came for Me, she d tales what she's
Speaker 1: learned from dealing with waves of intense harassment for daring
Speaker 1: to be a woman with opinions online. Liz wants people
Speaker 1: to know that becoming the target of an online harassment
Speaker 1: campaign can happen to anyone, so it's important to have
Speaker 1: a plan if it does. When I started doing this show,
Speaker 1: I initially purposefully did not focus on harassment because I
Speaker 1: was like, I want to write a or do a
Speaker 1: thing about the Internet and women where it's not centered
Speaker 1: around our negative experiences. But as that went on, it
Speaker 1: was it was becoming something that it felt like I
Speaker 1: was purposely ignoring, even though it's something that we all experience.
Speaker 1: And so I you know, I read your piece when
Speaker 1: a mob came for me, and you were writing about
Speaker 1: your first experiences with online harassment, and I was wondering
Speaker 1: if you could sort of talk us through what happened.
Speaker 1: You know, I really identify with your journey talking about
Speaker 1: harassment because I don't really like to talk about my harassment.
Speaker 1: I find that a couple of things happen when you
Speaker 1: do talk about your harassment. People Either I'll tell you
Speaker 1: you're whining and it's not that bad, or they are like, well,
Speaker 1: what do you do to deserve it? You know? Or
Speaker 1: or the worst thing is when they're like, and then
Speaker 1: what happened? You know? And you're like, oh, god, like
Speaker 1: I don't want and then they're like what kind of
Speaker 1: bomb threats to you? And then you're like, um, okay, weirdos.
Speaker 1: I don't know it, just like it never feels like
Speaker 1: there's a great way to have the conversation and um.
Speaker 1: But but like you, I have been seeing we are
Speaker 1: coming out of a year where I think, especially marginalized
Speaker 1: journalists are exhausted. I know a handful of journalists who
Speaker 1: have quit, are taking breaks because just the pressures of pandemic,
Speaker 1: the intense harassment that they've received, and um and and
Speaker 1: no breaks and everything. And it just felt like there
Speaker 1: was this It felt like there was a moment where
Speaker 1: I was like, we need to talk about this, we
Speaker 1: need to have a conversation. And so you're right, I
Speaker 1: wrote this thing, um that talked about my experiences. And
Speaker 1: I just want to be very clear at the outset,
Speaker 1: like there's a difference between criticism and harassment, Like you know,
Speaker 1: telling me I'm wrong or that you hate my article,
Speaker 1: it's okay, Like I don't consider that harassment. What I
Speaker 1: consider harassment is you know, calling me horrible names, um,
Speaker 1: telling me you want my kids to die, telling me
Speaker 1: you want me to die, telling me you're gonna bomb
Speaker 1: my house or sending me pictures of Peppe the Frog
Speaker 1: raping me. That's what I consider harassment like and that
Speaker 1: I feel like that's pretty I like, I don't. I
Speaker 1: feel like there's a pretty clear line between two. I
Speaker 1: don't know why we keep why. It's hard to have
Speaker 1: that conversation. So anyway, now to finally answer your question, yes, um,
Speaker 1: I was writing about my experiences. I live in Iowa, right,
Speaker 1: you know, every four years I write about the caucuses
Speaker 1: and some capacity. And that year sixteen, I was writing
Speaker 1: about the CAUCUSUS for Vice and I was live tweeting,
Speaker 1: you know, because that's the thing that journalists do. And
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm gonna do it. And I only
Speaker 1: had like a couple of thousand followers, and they were
Speaker 1: all following me because I'd had a pretty successful mom
Speaker 1: blog for a while, not like super famous, like solid
Speaker 1: I'd say, like third tier college kind of uh mom blog.
Speaker 1: It's like what you settled for when you don't get
Speaker 1: into Harvard. I started tweeting my experience caucusing and in
Speaker 1: that year, as we all know and I it was
Speaker 1: you know, the Hillary versus Bernie. If you were on
Speaker 1: political pockets of social media back then, you probably recall
Speaker 1: that the presidential election could feel like a pretty polarizing
Speaker 1: time to be online. There were palpable tensions between Bernie
Speaker 1: Sanders supporters and Hillary Clinton supporters that could really feel
Speaker 1: difficult to escape. And I have no political problems with
Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders, but a supporter of his like eld at
Speaker 1: me during the CAUCUSUS and this is Iowa, Like, we
Speaker 1: don't yell at each other, we keep it inside and
Speaker 1: then talk about you behind your back like it's and
Speaker 1: like and so it was like straight aggressive and it
Speaker 1: was so shocking to me, um that I was live
Speaker 1: tweeting it. And he had said something like you're voting
Speaker 1: with your vagina and I, you know, quit back, you know,
Speaker 1: And it wasn't even that creative. I think somebody else
Speaker 1: had said it better before. But you know, I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: America has been voting with its stick for two hundred
Speaker 1: and forty years, like come on, man, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I was like, chill out and and and and I
Speaker 1: tweeted that and just it got picked up and used
Speaker 1: as fodder and the Bernie Hillary wars and I was
Speaker 1: getting you know, I deleted it since then, and I
Speaker 1: encourage everybody to regularly delete their tweets. Um, but you know,
Speaker 1: it was like like thousands and thousands of retweets and
Speaker 1: and likes. You know, they were faved stars. Then was
Speaker 1: back in the olden days, and uh and then you know,
Speaker 1: and and and that's when I started. I got people
Speaker 1: with my dans at emails, people being like, you know,
Speaker 1: we're gonna, um, we're gonna call CPS on you to
Speaker 1: have your kids taken away. And I don't you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to attribute this to like one side
Speaker 1: or the other. I think there's just trolls out in
Speaker 1: the world and they like to harass people. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I was. And that's when it was like it was.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like it took things like I'd gotten criticism before,
Speaker 1: you know, where it's like, look at this dumb bitch,
Speaker 1: but like I hadn't gotten now your kids are going
Speaker 1: to be taken away? And and then you know, and
Speaker 1: and the toy six seen. So that's when my career
Speaker 1: as a writer was really starting to take off, and
Speaker 1: I was writing longer form pieces and it just became
Speaker 1: a situation where every once in a while, like I
Speaker 1: get like a weird letter, like I got like a
Speaker 1: snail mail and you yeah, And the most disturbing one
Speaker 1: was was just like five pages like white printer pages,
Speaker 1: and somebody had handwritten out Bible verses on them, and
Speaker 1: it was just like and it was just like, you know,
Speaker 1: all the verses about like repent and you're going to out.
Speaker 1: It's like I grew up like evangelical, like you can't
Speaker 1: convert me. I already memorized all those Bible verses in Alana,
Speaker 1: like I was in Bible Quiz. You can't. You can't Bible.
Speaker 1: And but also it's like chilling, and I remember opening
Speaker 1: the envelope and being like, you know, like scaring music
Speaker 1: in the background, and and it's just and and like
Speaker 1: stuff like that would trickle and trickle and trickle, and
Speaker 1: then and finally a couple of things started to happen,
Speaker 1: and you know again like I don't want to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: like this one thing happened, because I think once you're
Speaker 1: kind of on a radar, then like the then it
Speaker 1: just comes back and comes back. As Lizzar's public profile
Speaker 1: grew as she published bigger and bigger stories, so did
Speaker 1: the level of harassment she faced, a couple of things
Speaker 1: started to happen around is. I wrote some more high
Speaker 1: profile pieces and then finally wrote a profile of Tucker Carlson,
Speaker 1: which is like what a lot of people have known
Speaker 1: me for. Um. I wrote it for the Columbia Journalism Review,
Speaker 1: and after that it sparked a whole year of just waves.
Speaker 1: It was I would like I liken it to like,
Speaker 1: you know, like a tide. It would like flow in
Speaker 1: and flow out, but there would always be a little trickle. Um.
Speaker 1: So basically twenty een Um, the wave is out right now, fingers,
Speaker 1: but like the tides out was but like that, but
Speaker 1: like it just it sparked off this whole um just
Speaker 1: harassment were like my phone was blowing up. I used
Speaker 1: to use a Google number that got docsed. I was
Speaker 1: getting like, um, you know, uh, it's hard to explain,
Speaker 1: but like there's this like troll community thing where you know,
Speaker 1: they used to use Peppe. Now they use like this
Speaker 1: picture of a giant bugs bunny and they call it
Speaker 1: like big chungis. It's just it's just dumb, right, and
Speaker 1: but it's like and so I just get like pictures
Speaker 1: and pictures of that, you know. I was also getting
Speaker 1: you know, pictures of Peppy the front raping me like photoshopped,
Speaker 1: you know, and it was just like you were coming
Speaker 1: for you and and all of this and and like
Speaker 1: it never ended because I think in that time I published,
Speaker 1: I started publishing some like you know, bigger pieces. I
Speaker 1: published a story they got a lot of attention about
Speaker 1: my divorce, food in my divorce, and it was titled
Speaker 1: I'm Never Cooking for a Man Again, which was like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like titles are always a little tongue
Speaker 1: in cheek, but it was just an exploration of like food,
Speaker 1: an emotional labor and marriage and and oh my god,
Speaker 1: that like were super viral and and and just got
Speaker 1: like a ship ton of shit. I've actually read it
Speaker 1: and it's it's so touching and like personal and relatable.
Speaker 1: And it's funny to me that that title was. I mean,
Speaker 1: we we've all like like having with the piece. It is.
Speaker 1: It makes so much sense. But I could see how
Speaker 1: that title will be like enraging for people who were
Speaker 1: already predisposed to think of you in this negative light.
Speaker 1: But that's the troll thing, right, It's like just take
Speaker 1: things at headline value and then use that to crap
Speaker 1: on people, um, you know, and and I had that.
Speaker 1: I also published a profile of Richard Spencer's divorce the Nazi.
Speaker 1: That didn't help. Then I moderate in twenty nine, I
Speaker 1: moderated a presidential forum and it was you know, I'll
Speaker 1: say this about the forum, is we had there were
Speaker 1: three moderators. Um. I was just one of them. UM
Speaker 1: and they you know, they're both the other two moderators
Speaker 1: lovely people both marginalized UM and and UM you know,
Speaker 1: identify as queer in their own ways. And all of
Speaker 1: the questions we had like co written together, and like
Speaker 1: many organizations you know, had like vetted, and so I
Speaker 1: was just really just reading off of a prompter. Here
Speaker 1: was Liz grilling Biden at the forum. Also praised Vice
Speaker 1: President Mike Parts as a decent guy asking the questions
Speaker 1: if people want to know, that's also when Joe Biden
Speaker 1: called me a real sweetheart because I I pushed him
Speaker 1: ons and the you know, criminalization bills like that had
Speaker 1: you know, put more queer people in dayl It's just
Speaker 1: kind of how it happened. Joe like, no, it's like
Speaker 1: facts and I had put because he was like, that's
Speaker 1: not true. And I was like, well it is, so
Speaker 1: could you could you just talk about it? And and so,
Speaker 1: And as we were walking off the stage, he's like,
Speaker 1: you're a real sweetheart. And I was like, I can't
Speaker 1: believe the presiding. It was not like doing your job
Speaker 1: as a moderator, right, and like that's the whole thing is,
Speaker 1: like you know, I asked questions and I follow up
Speaker 1: and like the please answer the question. I think that's
Speaker 1: like yes, but like, uh, you know, and it was
Speaker 1: you know, the power and balance. But after that, I
Speaker 1: mean that I that also kicked off a huge intense
Speaker 1: wave and that's when I started getting bomb threats and
Speaker 1: um one of the other moderators was talking to me
Speaker 1: the other day and after my peace on Harassment I published,
Speaker 1: and he was like, you know, I'm never received the
Speaker 1: same kind of harassment that you did, even though we
Speaker 1: moderated at the same forum. He's like, He's like, it's
Speaker 1: just because you're on the radar. Let's take a quick
Speaker 1: break her back. Liz says that once you're on the
Speaker 1: radar of a network of harassers online, anything that you
Speaker 1: say can be used against you. For her, it was
Speaker 1: a silly joke that she had made about online dating.
Speaker 1: After a night out with friends and with that kind
Speaker 1: of threat hanging over you, it can feel like it's
Speaker 1: not worth it to show up as your full self
Speaker 1: online because someone somewhere could inevitably take what everything you're
Speaker 1: saying out of context to harass you. The thing that
Speaker 1: they always cling to is this one joke I made.
Speaker 1: It was I was I had said, and this happened,
Speaker 1: but it was just like I was just joking about.
Speaker 1: It was like a man on matched with me after
Speaker 1: I told him I was a journalist. You know what's
Speaker 1: he hiding? You know? At timed and it's not even
Speaker 1: that funny. I think it was like a joke. I
Speaker 1: like tweeted at like eleven PM after I've had like
Speaker 1: drinks with friends, and I was like, oh, this is funny,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like not, it's not
Speaker 1: even It's just like okay, Liz, ha ha ha, you know.
Speaker 1: And but like they screenshot that and every once in
Speaker 1: a while and it'll just come back up and people
Speaker 1: be like, did you do this? Did you ducks an
Speaker 1: innocent man? And I'll be like, I don't even remember
Speaker 1: his name, but yes, that is that is my joke.
Speaker 1: Thank you like, it's not that, but that's the thing
Speaker 1: that comes back up more often than anything else. It's
Speaker 1: just it's it's weird. I don't know, it's so interesting
Speaker 1: how that one harmless joke that you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I've seen that screenshot so and you know, I can
Speaker 1: only imagine what it's like for you being like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're they're holy, this this silly joke I made back
Speaker 1: up again. It will never go away. It's just like
Speaker 1: I just deserve better enemies. I'm always like I have
Speaker 1: made first of all, Like, first of all, I've made
Speaker 1: way worse jokes, way worse. Like do you hear how
Speaker 1: I'm talking Like I'm I say dumb ship all the time,
Speaker 1: just constantly literally bite me on literally any other dumb thing.
Speaker 1: I'm sad, but like and then they're they're all like
Speaker 1: expect me to be ashamed of it. They're like did
Speaker 1: you say this? And I'm like, I shure, and they're
Speaker 1: like did you talx some man? And I'm like, I
Speaker 1: sure didn't because it's a joke, y'all. And it's and
Speaker 1: it's funny because like, you know, that was one of
Speaker 1: the things that I that you know, like a lot
Speaker 1: of this truly culture is like, you know, the liberals
Speaker 1: can't take a joke. That's why we're gonna like, you know,
Speaker 1: make fun of them in like tamp then this is
Speaker 1: a really nasty way, you know. It's like it's like
Speaker 1: a generation of men who never learned that they weren't funny.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and it's just like this, it's actually not
Speaker 1: these are not These are not jokes. Like I have
Speaker 1: I have friends with the comedian Josh Combleman, and I
Speaker 1: was like, you should perform a service where people can
Speaker 1: ask you is this a joke or not? And you're like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like a five year old you know,
Speaker 1: is this a joke? Nope, Sorry, that's just a fart sound.
Speaker 1: It's not a joke, you know, Is this a joke? No,
Speaker 1: you just made a fat joke. You know, You're just
Speaker 1: you're just making a comment about somebody's weight. Not a joke,
Speaker 1: not a joke, just some f phobia. Even that joke
Speaker 1: does illustrate how I guess I feel that on Twitter especially,
Speaker 1: we've gotten to a point where it's but bad, Like
Speaker 1: we're not able to have actual conversations or even just
Speaker 1: communicate because every it's everything is so weaponized and taken
Speaker 1: in bad faith. Anybody, but you're You're what you tweeted
Speaker 1: was obviously just a joke, you're kidding around, But there's
Speaker 1: this assumption that anything anything that you say. I just
Speaker 1: feel that Twitter is so charged people. Once you're on
Speaker 1: someone's radar, they're looking for anything anything that you say
Speaker 1: can be used to be like see, she's the worst. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's so funny because that that thing I
Speaker 1: wrote about online. Mom's part of it was an interview
Speaker 1: with the journalist and author or Talia lab laban and Um,
Speaker 1: who's who helped me through that year of um of
Speaker 1: harassment and as you just really just because she has
Speaker 1: experienced it, she wrote this book Cultural Warlords, where she,
Speaker 1: you know, digs into these communities online, communities of hate
Speaker 1: and so um and so. But the funny thing about it,
Speaker 1: and and in that interview, you know, she's very clear,
Speaker 1: like she's very good at parsing the nuance of what's
Speaker 1: harassment and what criticism because again, like people are allowed
Speaker 1: to criticize, like and I'm gonna make mistakes and people
Speaker 1: are allowed to call out those mistakes. And I never
Speaker 1: want to be you know, like nailing myself to a
Speaker 1: cross just because like maybe I sucked up a column,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm going to like they're not all
Speaker 1: gonna be winners. Um, I'm going to fail. And uh.
Speaker 1: And you know, she does a really good job like
Speaker 1: pointing out like people saying that Andrew Cuomal, you know,
Speaker 1: harassed them sexually, that's not an online mob. Like that's
Speaker 1: just people talking about their experiences and saying this isn't okay.
Speaker 1: An online mob is you know, putting a picture of
Speaker 1: somebody's house inside across hears and saying, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: building pipe bombs. Like that's that's the difference. And so
Speaker 1: but like that that that interview was quote tweeted or
Speaker 1: like somebody quote tweeted it. It's Glenn Greenwald quote tweeted
Speaker 1: it and was like, oh, look at the you know,
Speaker 1: he was basically like, look at these people that don't
Speaker 1: know the difference between harassment and criticism, and was like,
Speaker 1: if you were functionally literate, like you would have read
Speaker 1: it and know that we have like three paragraphs, you know,
Speaker 1: parsing out that nuance. But again, like it's what you're saying,
Speaker 1: it's just bad faith. And once you're on somebody's radar
Speaker 1: and they don't like you everything that you do, They're
Speaker 1: just gonna hate. Yeah, it sucks. I mean what what
Speaker 1: does it feel? What does that feel like for you? Like,
Speaker 1: what does it feel like to be facing that kind
Speaker 1: of a charged online environment just to do your job
Speaker 1: every day? Um? It was hard in the beginning. Um.
Speaker 1: There's something my my therapist likes to likes to remind
Speaker 1: me of is that, like you level up, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean like is that as you go through
Speaker 1: life and as you become more successful, you know, you
Speaker 1: have kind of have these experiences like you have to
Speaker 1: grow into right, and so yes, that first year of
Speaker 1: intense harassments are really hard. Um it felt like being
Speaker 1: in a tunnel, just like I couldn't everything was closing
Speaker 1: in all around me. And you know, I also live
Speaker 1: in US. I don't live in a big Well, it's
Speaker 1: the second largest city in Iowa. People are always like
Speaker 1: it's the big city. Yes, it's the it's the big
Speaker 1: city if you're from like you know, a like fair
Speaker 1: Field or something. But if it's three hundred thousand people,
Speaker 1: it's not that big. Like uh and uh and and
Speaker 1: something that happened has happened too, is like, you know,
Speaker 1: I get emails from people in town and you know
Speaker 1: or or don't do this to people, by the way,
Speaker 1: but people like to make me aware when other people
Speaker 1: in town are discussing me on Facebook, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: please don't because then it makes me scared to go
Speaker 1: to the grocery store. But yes, people have like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember very specifically one woman in town who's a
Speaker 1: pretty high profile who had like a whole Facebook post
Speaker 1: discussing my body and how I looked as I moderated
Speaker 1: that forum, you know, calling me showy and trashy and
Speaker 1: like I was just trying to flaunt myself and like
Speaker 1: implying that I was like a giant slut. I was
Speaker 1: wearing like it doesn't matter what I was wearing, like,
Speaker 1: but but I was wearing like, you know, just like
Speaker 1: a standard and like newscaster dress. It was bright yellow
Speaker 1: because I can wear yellow. I'm like one of the
Speaker 1: few white people who can do it. It's a tough
Speaker 1: color pul and it's my one skill and y'all can
Speaker 1: just eat it, you know, and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: It makes you feel like you can't be an honor this,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll go for runs and people will honk
Speaker 1: at me and it's like, while am I getting is that?
Speaker 1: My friend? Is that? Is that like a car full
Speaker 1: of dudes? You know? That? Are you know? It's just
Speaker 1: like you don't know and it's scary. Or you go
Speaker 1: the grocery store and people will be like, oh, are
Speaker 1: you the writer? And you're like, maybe are you the
Speaker 1: one who participated in talking about what a slut? I
Speaker 1: was like, you know, it's like I don't, and it's
Speaker 1: and most people are nice, and most people are good actually,
Speaker 1: and most people are generous. I think this, I believe this.
Speaker 1: But when when you're in that harassment zone, and especially
Speaker 1: when things are really intense, you know that it's usually over.
Speaker 1: The intensity is over by like a day, two days.
Speaker 1: But anyway, like you know, it's usually only intense for
Speaker 1: a couple of days. But it feels like you're in
Speaker 1: a tunnel. It feels like you can turn everything off.
Speaker 1: You can turn your phone off, you can turn your
Speaker 1: internet off. And that's I do recommend that when things
Speaker 1: are bad, log off, don't tweak through up, just log op.
Speaker 1: You can't win, stay away, have some friends monitor it
Speaker 1: for you, just to let you know if there's anything.
Speaker 1: But even if that's happening, you don't know because if
Speaker 1: they're like targeting where you live, or you're like, what's safe?
Speaker 1: If the door knocks, You're like, is that? What is that? Where?
Speaker 1: Do you know? In the most intense times, you know,
Speaker 1: I was seeing posts like I live thirty minutes from
Speaker 1: her town? Should I go there? What? You know? It
Speaker 1: is terrifying. And I I am a single mom. I
Speaker 1: have two kids and not have two dogs. But it's
Speaker 1: not an accident that I have two dogs, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's directly related to some of my fears about um,
Speaker 1: you know, living alone and in being a target of
Speaker 1: harassment and so um uh and and yes and so
Speaker 1: it feels like being in a tunnel. One of the
Speaker 1: things I used I did in the before times when
Speaker 1: the harassment would get bad, um is I would just
Speaker 1: log off, you know, tell my friends like, don't you
Speaker 1: take take my Twitter pass or change it for a while,
Speaker 1: you know, do all this, and then I would go,
Speaker 1: don't like Marcus theaters, don't get mad at me, but
Speaker 1: sneak little bottles of that cheap setter home home wine
Speaker 1: in and then get a big popcorn and then just
Speaker 1: sit in a movie theater. So it just was like,
Speaker 1: I'm safe because nobody with me. I'm you know, I'm
Speaker 1: nobody can keeping, nobody knows I'm like seeing this movie
Speaker 1: and um, yeah we're just you know, go to a
Speaker 1: bar and sit outside or whatever. But yes, it does.
Speaker 1: It feels like wow. People might be thinking, you know,
Speaker 1: oh well, I don't write about politics, so I'm not
Speaker 1: like X y Z kind of person, so this can
Speaker 1: never happen to me. But something that you write into
Speaker 1: your piece that I think is important to pull out
Speaker 1: you right, people want to attribute this hate to one thing,
Speaker 1: one moment, or one time that I messed up, one
Speaker 1: story I filed. I think people do that because they
Speaker 1: want to feel safe. They want to think it will
Speaker 1: never happen to them. If you can blame me somehow,
Speaker 1: then you can distance yourself from it all. And that
Speaker 1: one nugget I think is so important because I do
Speaker 1: think there probably are people right now who are listening
Speaker 1: to you speak and they're like, oh, well, that will
Speaker 1: never happen to me because I'm insert thing here. And
Speaker 1: I think that was a real change for me. Was
Speaker 1: what I realized getting on, getting on the radar of
Speaker 1: people who want to make your life miserable online and
Speaker 1: offline as well. It's not one thing you did right,
Speaker 1: and so it's important for everyone to understand that that
Speaker 1: this could be any of us. I was randomly just
Speaker 1: talking to somebody for a story I wrote last year,
Speaker 1: and he was like, he was telling me how his son,
Speaker 1: who is a black teenage boy in town, was just
Speaker 1: getting getting that same kind of hate because he just
Speaker 1: posted a picture of himself with his girlfriend, and how
Speaker 1: a troll army found that he just existed, like just existed.
Speaker 1: Um and it just waves and waves and waves, and
Speaker 1: you know, and and and since posting that, you know,
Speaker 1: I've heard from people who are like, I'm a school
Speaker 1: board member and one time I spoke up about guns
Speaker 1: in school, you know, and like I think, actually, I
Speaker 1: think anti gun activists get a lot of this kind
Speaker 1: of harassment. But it's just like you can be a
Speaker 1: school board member. Somebody reached out to me to tell
Speaker 1: me that when they were a team, they started an
Speaker 1: lgbt Q club in their high school. There's a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago and um and and got targeted and
Speaker 1: are still targeted. And they're just like they're just like
Speaker 1: a human and you know, not high profile, like probably
Speaker 1: not even on Twitter. I didn't ask, but like just
Speaker 1: like you just existed, um, and and you got this
Speaker 1: kind of hate. Um. It's yes, you don't have to
Speaker 1: be high profile and obnoxious. And I think that like me, Um,
Speaker 1: I'm not that high profile. Let's not let's not get excited, um,
Speaker 1: but like yes, you just have to exist in a
Speaker 1: way that people don't like, you know, trans people get
Speaker 1: this kind of hate. And that was you know, that
Speaker 1: was actually one of the motivating reasons where I really
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about it because I have um friends
Speaker 1: who are trans who are getting a lot of this
Speaker 1: harassment just for existing. And I made the conscious decision
Speaker 1: not to interview one of them because I didn't want
Speaker 1: to put more of a target on their back. Um.
Speaker 1: But like yeah, just like just like living your life
Speaker 1: and being happy if you do so, you know, and
Speaker 1: you get on the radar, like that's it's I mean,
Speaker 1: that's it, it's over. You know, there's a journalist and
Speaker 1: messaging right now, who's you know, like maybe like four
Speaker 1: D followers, Like she writes about sports, but because she's
Speaker 1: a woman who writes about sports, she's like I get
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm being in a really intense tor askment.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good point that like it seems
Speaker 1: to be always people who are marginalized until if you're
Speaker 1: a woman, a woman of color, L T t Q,
Speaker 1: Like it seems like it's much worse for us when
Speaker 1: we put our opinions out there. Like I noticed, Um,
Speaker 1: this was one of the reasons where I was like,
Speaker 1: I have to talk about harassment because it's getting to
Speaker 1: be too much. Uh. You mentioned Glenn Greenwald. A few
Speaker 1: weeks ago, there was a USA Today piece where a
Speaker 1: intern had published her first byeline. Her name is Bretta Smith,
Speaker 1: and it was a co byline with another author, Will Careless,
Speaker 1: who was a white man, and it was so interesting
Speaker 1: to me. So Glenn Greenwald retweeted it was like, I
Speaker 1: hope you're like some mean tweet. It was over to
Speaker 1: his over a million followers. Not like his followers are
Speaker 1: not like the most generous people on the internet, Like
Speaker 1: if you're making the conscious decision to follow him as
Speaker 1: a person and his personal brand is not like it's
Speaker 1: not like you know, kindness, generosity and light more. After
Speaker 1: a quick break, let's get right back into it. We
Speaker 1: talk a lot about free speech online, what it is,
Speaker 1: and who has it, but we need to make room
Speaker 1: to talk about what happens when marginalized voices are pushed
Speaker 1: off of social media because the harassment has gotten so bad.
Speaker 1: And this is ultimately the point of this kind of harassment,
Speaker 1: to make people feel like speaking up and putting their
Speaker 1: opinions out there is just ultimately not worth it. To
Speaker 1: make women and other marginalized voices shut up and just
Speaker 1: stop talking. The silencing effect it has can be real,
Speaker 1: And this is something that Liz wants men to understand.
Speaker 1: I do not think these men need to stop talking.
Speaker 1: I mean, I would like it if they talked less,
Speaker 1: but that's my own personal decision, has no reflection on
Speaker 1: the constitution or laws that I would like to see
Speaker 1: it changed. Um, But like I, you know, nobody's saying
Speaker 1: you can't talk. But what they are saying is there
Speaker 1: is a difference between when you talk and when I talk.
Speaker 1: When you talk, maybe people quote tweet you until you're
Speaker 1: a potato brain. Fine, When I talk, people tell me
Speaker 1: they're going to kill my kids. And that's the difference.
Speaker 1: And you know that's and and there is a silencing effect,
Speaker 1: and that's the point, Like, the point is the silencing effect.
Speaker 1: The point is the fear. The point is to make
Speaker 1: you look over your shoulder, to make you think twice
Speaker 1: before you have an opinion. And and it's that culture
Speaker 1: of silence and that culture of fear that is bred.
Speaker 1: And I know, I know women who are afraid of
Speaker 1: doing things, of poking their heads. I never learned there's
Speaker 1: something deeply wrong with me. So it actually makes me boulder.
Speaker 1: It makes me me like, no, you don't get to
Speaker 1: dictate the terms on which I live my life and
Speaker 1: on how I write and so but I'm not saying
Speaker 1: there's a wrong way to be. You have to live
Speaker 1: the life that feels good and safe to you. So
Speaker 1: I'm not. But it makes me sad, you know, because
Speaker 1: I do know there are voices we do not hear
Speaker 1: because of this fear. And that's the silencing and that's
Speaker 1: the thing we need to be talking about. And that's
Speaker 1: the thing that I think is interesting, right, that who
Speaker 1: gets defended and who gets attacked? Right, You're right, like
Speaker 1: you know, quote tweeting the intern and telling them they
Speaker 1: did a bad job when it's obvious it's probably just assigned.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a code byline with another man, like
Speaker 1: and if you had a problem with the peace, then
Speaker 1: don't attack, like just say I have problem with this piece,
Speaker 1: Like I have a problem. Don't tell that person they're
Speaker 1: bad at there, like there is a why and like
Speaker 1: and and and I actually think that like being harassed
Speaker 1: makes me a little bit more of an empathetic person,
Speaker 1: because I it is and you know, it is tempting
Speaker 1: for everybody to like think of like a celebrity or
Speaker 1: somebody who's more high profile, not as a person. Right,
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, well, you're just an image. So now
Speaker 1: I'm going to just talk about like how you look
Speaker 1: on the internet. But it does make me think twice
Speaker 1: about like how I talk about people and how I
Speaker 1: how I criticize things, because you know there there is
Speaker 1: a difference, and there is a line. And um yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think too, if your high profile enough, you
Speaker 1: should know that by now, and you should you know,
Speaker 1: use your power for good not evil. I always, you know,
Speaker 1: try to think like I punch up right, like hold
Speaker 1: power accountable. And that's another thing. I think. It's always
Speaker 1: like she's always like I know your power so that
Speaker 1: you don't abuse your power. So important, Yeah, She's like,
Speaker 1: who are you gonna fight and how are you going
Speaker 1: to fight it? You know, She's like, you need to
Speaker 1: be very conscious of those things so that you don't
Speaker 1: you know, so you don't hurt anybody. You talked about
Speaker 1: the role that Talia, who I loved, played when you
Speaker 1: were harassed, and that it wasn't just you know, keep
Speaker 1: your head up girl, it was here's what you need
Speaker 1: to know. So I wonder, Um, I saw your tweet
Speaker 1: about things that you thought that anybody who was on
Speaker 1: Twitter should do to make sure that they are protecting
Speaker 1: themselves from being targeted by this kind of harassment. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us a bit about what you would suggest
Speaker 1: people do to keep themselves safe. Yeah, very practical advice
Speaker 1: and a practical Midwestern mom, so I like practical advice.
Speaker 1: So here's what I think. Number one, A lot of
Speaker 1: people may not know this, but there are websites, hundreds
Speaker 1: tons roots of websites across the Internet that scrub your
Speaker 1: data and then sell it to anybody who's well to
Speaker 1: pay for it, and that's how you basically that's the
Speaker 1: number one way people get docked. Um. There are services
Speaker 1: that that will scrub that data off the internet. For you.
Speaker 1: UM and one of the services that I have used
Speaker 1: that Talia recommended to me. I think it was Talia.
Speaker 1: It was either that or it was Christopher Matthias, who's
Speaker 1: an incredible reporter who reports on extremism. One of them
Speaker 1: told me very early on, UM used delete me. This
Speaker 1: is not a commercial. Don't get money from them, Like
Speaker 1: I just although the tweet did so well, they like,
Speaker 1: now if you use the promo code l y z L.
Speaker 1: She didn't dropped the promo code. Yeah. By the way,
Speaker 1: I don't want to brag, but like, I'm a promo code,
Speaker 1: so like I just live in that promo code life. Uh, superficous.
Speaker 1: I told my kids and like, I'm a promo code.
Speaker 1: Treat me with respect. And they're like, we're thirsty place,
Speaker 1: we just want some water. Um, where are you talking
Speaker 1: like that? But yes, delete me is a great service.
Speaker 1: There's other ones out there. Delete me is the one
Speaker 1: I've been using for years. There is a promo code
Speaker 1: for twenty percent off. It's a significant amount of money
Speaker 1: h L y z L if you use it. UM
Speaker 1: and then UM other things too. You know, if you
Speaker 1: if you have kids, get all their pictures off the internet.
Speaker 1: Now just do it, uh, you know it, Uh, scrub
Speaker 1: your Facebook. Their services out there, none of them are
Speaker 1: super great, so there's not one I really could recommend.
Speaker 1: I just google around, scrub your Facebook. A lot of
Speaker 1: TV news stations have their newscasters have to facebooks. You know,
Speaker 1: your private one and your public one. UM, consider that
Speaker 1: if you like to use Facebook. I think Facebook is
Speaker 1: necessary for journalists, especially if you report on your own community.
Speaker 1: You kind of need to see what's going on. But
Speaker 1: if you have the auctory of deleting Facebook, just deleteed. UM.
Speaker 1: The thing with Instagram is, um, I have a private
Speaker 1: one in a public one. Now I recommend that, UM,
Speaker 1: or just keeping your Instagram private because you don't want
Speaker 1: people finding pictures of you and like photo, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, like in photo and like being like,
Speaker 1: oh she went to It's just everything will be taken
Speaker 1: in bad faith. UM, and you never know the thing
Speaker 1: that people are going to object to, like a stupid joke,
Speaker 1: right Like, UM, I say, automatically delete your tweets. UM,
Speaker 1: it might feel sad, do it? Like, just delete your
Speaker 1: tweets pretty regularly, tweet delete dot net. It's a free service.
Speaker 1: You're just like you know, auto start, auto deleting. Um.
Speaker 1: Those are some pretty practical things you can do that. Um.
Speaker 1: It won't stop harassment, but it will protect you from
Speaker 1: people knowing where you live. UM, for people knowing the
Speaker 1: faces of your children or your other loved ones. When
Speaker 1: I wrote about Richard Spencer, he went on, you know
Speaker 1: that that like uh, you know, like the chum bucket
Speaker 1: of YouTube shows where he was saying he was saying,
Speaker 1: my the last name that I use is my married
Speaker 1: last name, even though I'm divorced. Now, I just like, well,
Speaker 1: last names are the same. It's just too exhausting to
Speaker 1: go back that he was, you know, using my maid
Speaker 1: name and my last name, and I I started worrying
Speaker 1: about my parents, you know, I was like, oh God,
Speaker 1: now they're going to find my parents. It just makes
Speaker 1: it harder for people to find that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: And usually like if they can't find it pretty easily,
Speaker 1: then it just it goes away after a couple of hours.
Speaker 1: In most cases, it will go away after a couple
Speaker 1: of hours. But there is something my agent said the
Speaker 1: last time I was going through some intense harassment is um,
Speaker 1: you know, She's like, this happens if you are successful,
Speaker 1: if you are good at your job, like she represents
Speaker 1: a lot of female journalists, and she's like, it never
Speaker 1: gets easier. So just find ways, find tools, find people
Speaker 1: to help you, good friends, you know, because the impulse
Speaker 1: is to always feel like, oh did I screw up?
Speaker 1: You know, especially if you're not like a narcissist, You're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I must be doing something to deserve this. Nine times
Speaker 1: out attend you didn't. Nobody deserves to get that threats
Speaker 1: and nobody deserves that kind of stuff, no one. Um
Speaker 1: and uh, you know but like nine times out of
Speaker 1: ten you didn't do anything wrong, you know, but have
Speaker 1: friends in your life who would tell you like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was an offensive joke. You screwed up. Deleted and
Speaker 1: go dark for a while, you know, Like just get
Speaker 1: people in your life you can help you and um,
Speaker 1: and reach out, Like if you're in like a really
Speaker 1: going through some harassment you don't know how to handle it,
Speaker 1: like reach out, Like my d m s are open. Um,
Speaker 1: sometimes I close them, but um, they're open now. Reach
Speaker 1: out to other journalists. Um. And and that's another thing too,
Speaker 1: is if you see somebody going through something like that,
Speaker 1: reaching out to them, let's is really just saying like hey,
Speaker 1: I see you, I see that this is happening. I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry, you know, or you know, or just like
Speaker 1: I'm here for you. I like you. You know, Um,
Speaker 1: that's you know, that's good. That's good enough, even if
Speaker 1: you know, if you even even if you're like whom
Speaker 1: the article you wrote did, current of suck. Nobody deserves
Speaker 1: death threats. Nobody deserves death threats, and and yes, and
Speaker 1: so those are those are some practical things that I think,
Speaker 1: as much as I hate seeing anybody be going through
Speaker 1: target harassment on social media, something that I have been
Speaker 1: really kind of proud to see lately is but one
Speaker 1: how many individual other journalists are like, we support you.
Speaker 1: You know that a community response I think is beautiful.
Speaker 1: And then to something I think is really important is
Speaker 1: the institutional response. And so when someone is harassed, when
Speaker 1: their outlet puts out a statement that is we support
Speaker 1: the good work of this journalists. We you know, because
Speaker 1: I think for for a long time, if someone was
Speaker 1: being harassed, they would be calling you know, the outlet
Speaker 1: they work for, and maybe they would be fired. It
Speaker 1: would be like, oh we want to cut ties. Maybe
Speaker 1: they would you know, not stand by them I'm I'm
Speaker 1: kind of hardened to see situations where you know, your
Speaker 1: NBC's or ABC's put out statements standing up for their reporters.
Speaker 1: And you know, I will say, like, I have had
Speaker 1: institutions throw me under the bus, and I have had
Speaker 1: institutions stick up for me. I will I will say
Speaker 1: the Columbia Journalism Review has been a staunch supporter of
Speaker 1: my work, and I I I think that Kyle Pope
Speaker 1: over there has been amazing in the harassment that I
Speaker 1: have received, you know, for him, I have I have
Speaker 1: profiled Alan Derschwitz, Tucker Carlson, Crystal Is Seth Abramson. And
Speaker 1: if you think that there wasn't pushed back from those articles,
Speaker 1: you're wrong. Grutchen Carlson, that was a weird one. Um.
Speaker 1: And and every single time they have stood by first
Speaker 1: of all, you know, institutionally they provide rigorous fact checking
Speaker 1: so that everything would be airtight, and and then stood
Speaker 1: by me, you know, through through the waves because they
Speaker 1: I don't know, I've never been like, Kyle, what have
Speaker 1: you done it? But it's um, I think it's because
Speaker 1: they know and they value good work, and yes, and
Speaker 1: so it is encouraging to see when institutions get it right.
Speaker 1: I hate it when institutions get it wrong, but um,
Speaker 1: there are some good examples of things. Let's if we
Speaker 1: focus on the positive. I do, and I think that
Speaker 1: knowing that your institution has your back makes you a
Speaker 1: or journalists makes you better at your job. Like I'm
Speaker 1: more willing, you know, to say bolder things or to
Speaker 1: write bigger stories for them because I know I can
Speaker 1: trust them, that I know that you know they'll have
Speaker 1: a lawyer ready and they'll defend me, and they'll be
Speaker 1: proud of me. Media companies and outlets are starting to
Speaker 1: catch up. When journalists like Taylor Lorenz and some men
Speaker 1: Cam were harassed online for doing their jobs, their outlets
Speaker 1: put out statements sticking up for them, and some outlets
Speaker 1: have gone even further. Last week, the sports site defect
Speaker 1: or Media announced a new policy that would offer support
Speaker 1: to journalists if they found themselves at the center of
Speaker 1: a harassment campaign, including a subscription to delete me, safe
Speaker 1: housing for them and their families should their homes become unsafe,
Speaker 1: and assigning someone to temporarily manage their social media accounts.
Speaker 1: Not only is this a good way to support staff,
Speaker 1: but it just acknowledges that online harassment is a real
Speaker 1: thing that staff might have to deal with instead of
Speaker 1: just pretending that it's something just happening online. It acknowledges
Speaker 1: the reality that aline harassment can deeply impact our real world,
Speaker 1: our real work, and real lives. And if people are marginalized,
Speaker 1: the kind of harassment they faith will be worse, you know,
Speaker 1: talking with other men and then get this kind of
Speaker 1: harassment too. But I was talking with another writer just
Speaker 1: the other day about this, and he was like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've gone through harassment cycles before. He's like, but I
Speaker 1: don't think they inspire in me the fear that they
Speaker 1: inspire in you, because you're already afraid to walk alone
Speaker 1: at night, right, Like, these are already fears that you have,
Speaker 1: and they they get compounded by your fears online. And
Speaker 1: and this is not all in your head, right. Fear
Speaker 1: is a gift. To read The Gift of Fear. Everybody
Speaker 1: read The Gift of Fear. It's great. Book teaches you
Speaker 1: to trust yourself, like, um, trust your gut and um
Speaker 1: I teach that to my daughter, like, trust your gut.
Speaker 1: You know, if something feels weird, If an adult feels weird,
Speaker 1: get away from them, and sometimes she'll be like you
Speaker 1: feel weird, not fair, but fine, go to your round.
Speaker 1: Uh it's but yes and so like yeah, but yes,
Speaker 1: like it compounds the already precarious situation of existing in
Speaker 1: the world and um, which is you know, so much
Speaker 1: harder for marginalized people. Um. And it's you know, start
Speaker 1: in your head like this, like you know, racism and
Speaker 1: homophobias institutionalized and so yes, yes, so it is different definitely, um.
Speaker 1: And it is encouraging when there you do find places
Speaker 1: that's poor and they're and they're just doing like their jobs,
Speaker 1: like you know, to like say like we have an
Speaker 1: employee and they did this story and we're fine with it.
Speaker 1: But like just I think because we've all just been
Speaker 1: so reilroaded by capital that when it does its job,
Speaker 1: like it's, uh, we're like thanks mom. Yes, our standards
Speaker 1: are very low. So it's like it's like, oh, you
Speaker 1: didn't you didn't toss me like the trash, like great,
Speaker 1: thank you. But no, I do think CDR has supported
Speaker 1: me and my work in some really powerful ways. And
Speaker 1: I don't think that that's nothing and I don't think
Speaker 1: it's a mistake that I have some of my best
Speaker 1: work I've written for them, right and so, um it's
Speaker 1: makes good business sense Stitcher your employee as well. What
Speaker 1: is your advice to underrepresented people, women, people of color
Speaker 1: who want to be I want to put their opinions
Speaker 1: out into the world, whether as a writer like yourself,
Speaker 1: either just as a social media user. But are understandably scared.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, you know, I say obviously, like you need
Speaker 1: to live the life that you're happiest with, so you know,
Speaker 1: like so I I don't think that I can tell
Speaker 1: you what that looks like, and nobody can, but you know,
Speaker 1: and if you're scared, like, yeah, think about that, right,
Speaker 1: like do the work. But there are some simple practical
Speaker 1: stuffs you can take now even if you're just like
Speaker 1: I'm not famous, nobody cares about what I say. Who cares?
Speaker 1: Live Like you're gonna be famous? Start leveling up and
Speaker 1: start taking care of your ship now. Get scrub your stuff,
Speaker 1: you know, lockdown your Instagram's, um, you know, figure that
Speaker 1: kind of ship out, you know, clear do whatever you
Speaker 1: need to do with Facebook, which is a nightmare. Um
Speaker 1: and and start doing that now before it gets that
Speaker 1: And then I think that that gives you a place
Speaker 1: of strength from which to operate and then have like
Speaker 1: a game plan. You know, I'm a person who loves
Speaker 1: a plan, so you know, just and having a plan
Speaker 1: for Okay, if this does happen, here's what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna log off. I'm gonna have this friend do
Speaker 1: this when I'm this friend. I've had friends monitor of
Speaker 1: my email before. You know, just because like sign out,
Speaker 1: no notifications, can you handle it? Um and and have
Speaker 1: those plans in place? I think it gives you a
Speaker 1: position of strength to operate from and um only right.
Speaker 1: By the way, here's another tip if you're if we're
Speaker 1: talking about writing only right for editors that have your back,
Speaker 1: and you'll know, like, do not write for an editor
Speaker 1: who is going to let you publish something shitty. I
Speaker 1: I used to work as an editor for a literary
Speaker 1: magazine and there were times when I would be reading
Speaker 1: an essay that was other love otherwise lovely, but had
Speaker 1: like one or two sentences in it that you know,
Speaker 1: might be fat, shame me, might be a little bit
Speaker 1: not great. And you know, my my comment to the
Speaker 1: author was always, we're taking this out because it brings
Speaker 1: down the quality of the piece and you're writing right,
Speaker 1: it's and and but you know there there are websites
Speaker 1: the x O Jane used to do this that would
Speaker 1: take people's worst thoughts and impulses put them online, and
Speaker 1: then they become targets. And then they'd be like, why
Speaker 1: did that happen to me? It's like, well, you've wrote
Speaker 1: something terrible in a bad way, and not just once again.
Speaker 1: People don't deserve death threats, but um and I do
Speaker 1: think we don't. That was like the Internet in the
Speaker 1: early aughts a little bit. I feel like people have
Speaker 1: most editors will have your back, but don't write for
Speaker 1: editors who are going to throw you under the bus,
Speaker 1: who are gonna, you know, exploit your marginalized identity for clicks. UM,
Speaker 1: be in charge of yourself and your representation. Don't be
Speaker 1: afraid to walk away from UM stories if you get
Speaker 1: a bad vibe, or editors if you get a bad vibe,
Speaker 1: It's fine. I've done a couple of times, m Um,
Speaker 1: just because I'm like, I don't I respect you, but
Speaker 1: I feel like we're not vibing on this piece, and
Speaker 1: it's okay to walk away from it. UM. Things like that. UM.
Speaker 1: I also just like never advocate anybody living a life
Speaker 1: of fear. And so if you're in that place, if
Speaker 1: you feel like all you're doing is operating from a
Speaker 1: place of fear, you're not. You're not living your best life.
Speaker 1: So what do you need to do to not be there?
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean getting off Twitter? You know, you can have
Speaker 1: a life like not online. It's possible. Lots of people have,
Speaker 1: you know, wonderful writing careers and are not on the Internet.
Speaker 1: People exist not on the internet. Um, things happen not
Speaker 1: on internet. So find the life that you need to
Speaker 1: live and lead and don't live in a place of fear. Please,
Speaker 1: nobody wants that for you. And don't be afraid to
Speaker 1: reach out to other people. Um, you know, farm your
Speaker 1: community and to find the people who who love you
Speaker 1: and let us see you succeed and really, you know,
Speaker 1: lean on them. That's beautiful. Where can folks keep up
Speaker 1: with all the amazing stuff that you're doing? Um? Oh
Speaker 1: like a cancel culture warrior. I also have a newsletter.
Speaker 1: It is um it's just Liz dot sub stack dot com,
Speaker 1: l y Z dot sub stack dot com and it's
Speaker 1: called men yell at me. Uh they do. People are like,
Speaker 1: why do you I'm like, I don't know, why do
Speaker 1: they yell? Uh? Don't ask me? But that that's my
Speaker 1: newsletter so um. I Also I also have a Twitter
Speaker 1: It's at l y z. I also have a website
Speaker 1: lis lends dot com, um and you can find me
Speaker 1: all of those places. If you enjoyed this podcast, please
Speaker 1: help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an
Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi.
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