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Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are

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Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Nobody likes

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Speaker 1: talking about online harassment. When I first started the podcast

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, I specifically wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about all the cool things that women, queer folks,

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Speaker 1: black folks, and other underrepresented voices are doing on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: And as much as I wanted to focus on the positive,

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Speaker 1: the harassment we face online is difficult to ignore. Earlier

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Speaker 1: this month, Chrissie Teagan left Twitter. This was kind of

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Speaker 1: a big deal. She's someone who was once called the

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Speaker 1: Mayor of Twitter because she's such a prolific user. She

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Speaker 1: spoke at Twitter headquarters for a company event and on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: She made it clear that she didn't blame Twitter for

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Speaker 1: feeling like she had to leave the platform. She said

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Speaker 1: that Twitter staff had actually reached out and worked with

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Speaker 1: her and her team to deal with the barrage of

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Speaker 1: harassment she faces, and I'm sure they did. Chrissy Tigan

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Speaker 1: is rich and famous and well connected. What about the

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Speaker 1: rest of us who aren't. We've seen a wave of

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Speaker 1: online harassment come for women journalists too. On Fox News,

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Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson did two nights of segments pretty much just

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Speaker 1: making fun of New York Times Internet culture reporter Taylor

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Speaker 1: Lawrenz for, as he put it, pretending to be oppressed

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Speaker 1: after she tweeted for International Women's Day, please consider supporting

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Speaker 1: women and during online harassment. After Times reporter Rachel Abrams

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Speaker 1: did a report on the conservative news network own the network,

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Speaker 1: bataliated by putting her personal cell phone number on the

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Speaker 1: air and encouraging viewers to contact her, a pretty obvious

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Speaker 1: attempt at inciting harassment. And it's not just people with

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Speaker 1: public profiles harassment. It's just a reality when you're a

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Speaker 1: marginalized person who puts their opinion or words online. If

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Speaker 1: you're a woman, or a person of color or a

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Speaker 1: queer person who's listening, you've probably already dealt with it.

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Speaker 1: I know I've dealt with it, and it's awkward to

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Speaker 1: talk about, but writer Liz Lenz says that we need

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Speaker 1: to start talking about it. In her piece called When

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Speaker 1: the Mob Came for Me, she d tales what she's

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Speaker 1: learned from dealing with waves of intense harassment for daring

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Speaker 1: to be a woman with opinions online. Liz wants people

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Speaker 1: to know that becoming the target of an online harassment

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Speaker 1: campaign can happen to anyone, so it's important to have

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Speaker 1: a plan if it does. When I started doing this show,

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Speaker 1: I initially purposefully did not focus on harassment because I

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Speaker 1: was like, I want to write a or do a

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Speaker 1: thing about the Internet and women where it's not centered

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Speaker 1: around our negative experiences. But as that went on, it

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Speaker 1: was it was becoming something that it felt like I

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Speaker 1: was purposely ignoring, even though it's something that we all experience.

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Speaker 1: And so I you know, I read your piece when

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Speaker 1: a mob came for me, and you were writing about

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Speaker 1: your first experiences with online harassment, and I was wondering

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Speaker 1: if you could sort of talk us through what happened.

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Speaker 1: You know, I really identify with your journey talking about

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Speaker 1: harassment because I don't really like to talk about my harassment.

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Speaker 1: I find that a couple of things happen when you

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Speaker 1: do talk about your harassment. People Either I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: you're whining and it's not that bad, or they are like, well,

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Speaker 1: what do you do to deserve it? You know? Or

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Speaker 1: or the worst thing is when they're like, and then

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Speaker 1: what happened? You know? And you're like, oh, god, like

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Speaker 1: I don't want and then they're like what kind of

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Speaker 1: bomb threats to you? And then you're like, um, okay, weirdos.

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Speaker 1: I don't know it, just like it never feels like

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Speaker 1: there's a great way to have the conversation and um.

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Speaker 1: But but like you, I have been seeing we are

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Speaker 1: coming out of a year where I think, especially marginalized

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Speaker 1: journalists are exhausted. I know a handful of journalists who

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Speaker 1: have quit, are taking breaks because just the pressures of pandemic,

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Speaker 1: the intense harassment that they've received, and um and and

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Speaker 1: no breaks and everything. And it just felt like there

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Speaker 1: was this It felt like there was a moment where

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Speaker 1: I was like, we need to talk about this, we

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Speaker 1: need to have a conversation. And so you're right, I

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Speaker 1: wrote this thing, um that talked about my experiences. And

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Speaker 1: I just want to be very clear at the outset,

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Speaker 1: like there's a difference between criticism and harassment, Like you know,

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Speaker 1: telling me I'm wrong or that you hate my article,

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Speaker 1: it's okay, Like I don't consider that harassment. What I

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Speaker 1: consider harassment is you know, calling me horrible names, um,

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Speaker 1: telling me you want my kids to die, telling me

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Speaker 1: you want me to die, telling me you're gonna bomb

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Speaker 1: my house or sending me pictures of Peppe the Frog

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Speaker 1: raping me. That's what I consider harassment like and that

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's pretty I like, I don't. I

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Speaker 1: feel like there's a pretty clear line between two. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why we keep why. It's hard to have

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Speaker 1: that conversation. So anyway, now to finally answer your question, yes, um,

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Speaker 1: I was writing about my experiences. I live in Iowa, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, every four years I write about the caucuses

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Speaker 1: and some capacity. And that year sixteen, I was writing

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Speaker 1: about the CAUCUSUS for Vice and I was live tweeting,

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Speaker 1: you know, because that's the thing that journalists do. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm gonna do it. And I only

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Speaker 1: had like a couple of thousand followers, and they were

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Speaker 1: all following me because I'd had a pretty successful mom

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Speaker 1: blog for a while, not like super famous, like solid

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Speaker 1: I'd say, like third tier college kind of uh mom blog.

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Speaker 1: It's like what you settled for when you don't get

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Speaker 1: into Harvard. I started tweeting my experience caucusing and in

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Speaker 1: that year, as we all know and I it was

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Speaker 1: you know, the Hillary versus Bernie. If you were on

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Speaker 1: political pockets of social media back then, you probably recall

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Speaker 1: that the presidential election could feel like a pretty polarizing

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Speaker 1: time to be online. There were palpable tensions between Bernie

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Speaker 1: Sanders supporters and Hillary Clinton supporters that could really feel

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Speaker 1: difficult to escape. And I have no political problems with

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Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders, but a supporter of his like eld at

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Speaker 1: me during the CAUCUSUS and this is Iowa, Like, we

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Speaker 1: don't yell at each other, we keep it inside and

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Speaker 1: then talk about you behind your back like it's and

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Speaker 1: like and so it was like straight aggressive and it

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Speaker 1: was so shocking to me, um that I was live

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Speaker 1: tweeting it. And he had said something like you're voting

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Speaker 1: with your vagina and I, you know, quit back, you know,

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't even that creative. I think somebody else

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Speaker 1: had said it better before. But you know, I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: America has been voting with its stick for two hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty years, like come on, man, and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was like, chill out and and and and I

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Speaker 1: tweeted that and just it got picked up and used

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Speaker 1: as fodder and the Bernie Hillary wars and I was

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Speaker 1: getting you know, I deleted it since then, and I

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Speaker 1: encourage everybody to regularly delete their tweets. Um, but you know,

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Speaker 1: it was like like thousands and thousands of retweets and

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Speaker 1: and likes. You know, they were faved stars. Then was

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Speaker 1: back in the olden days, and uh and then you know,

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Speaker 1: and and and that's when I started. I got people

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Speaker 1: with my dans at emails, people being like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna, um, we're gonna call CPS on you to

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Speaker 1: have your kids taken away. And I don't you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to attribute this to like one side

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Speaker 1: or the other. I think there's just trolls out in

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Speaker 1: the world and they like to harass people. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was. And that's when it was like it was.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like it took things like I'd gotten criticism before,

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Speaker 1: you know, where it's like, look at this dumb bitch,

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Speaker 1: but like I hadn't gotten now your kids are going

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Speaker 1: to be taken away? And and then you know, and

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Speaker 1: and the toy six seen. So that's when my career

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Speaker 1: as a writer was really starting to take off, and

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Speaker 1: I was writing longer form pieces and it just became

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Speaker 1: a situation where every once in a while, like I

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Speaker 1: get like a weird letter, like I got like a

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Speaker 1: snail mail and you yeah, And the most disturbing one

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Speaker 1: was was just like five pages like white printer pages,

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Speaker 1: and somebody had handwritten out Bible verses on them, and

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Speaker 1: it was just like and it was just like, you know,

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Speaker 1: all the verses about like repent and you're going to out.

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Speaker 1: It's like I grew up like evangelical, like you can't

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Speaker 1: convert me. I already memorized all those Bible verses in Alana,

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Speaker 1: like I was in Bible Quiz. You can't. You can't Bible.

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Speaker 1: And but also it's like chilling, and I remember opening

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Speaker 1: the envelope and being like, you know, like scaring music

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Speaker 1: in the background, and and it's just and and like

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Speaker 1: stuff like that would trickle and trickle and trickle, and

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Speaker 1: then and finally a couple of things started to happen,

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Speaker 1: and you know again like I don't want to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: like this one thing happened, because I think once you're

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Speaker 1: kind of on a radar, then like the then it

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Speaker 1: just comes back and comes back. As Lizzar's public profile

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Speaker 1: grew as she published bigger and bigger stories, so did

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Speaker 1: the level of harassment she faced, a couple of things

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Speaker 1: started to happen around is. I wrote some more high

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Speaker 1: profile pieces and then finally wrote a profile of Tucker Carlson,

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Speaker 1: which is like what a lot of people have known

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Speaker 1: me for. Um. I wrote it for the Columbia Journalism Review,

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Speaker 1: and after that it sparked a whole year of just waves.

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Speaker 1: It was I would like I liken it to like,

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Speaker 1: you know, like a tide. It would like flow in

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Speaker 1: and flow out, but there would always be a little trickle. Um.

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Speaker 1: So basically twenty een Um, the wave is out right now, fingers,

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Speaker 1: but like the tides out was but like that, but

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Speaker 1: like it just it sparked off this whole um just

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Speaker 1: harassment were like my phone was blowing up. I used

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Speaker 1: to use a Google number that got docsed. I was

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Speaker 1: getting like, um, you know, uh, it's hard to explain,

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Speaker 1: but like there's this like troll community thing where you know,

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Speaker 1: they used to use Peppe. Now they use like this

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Speaker 1: picture of a giant bugs bunny and they call it

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Speaker 1: like big chungis. It's just it's just dumb, right, and

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Speaker 1: but it's like and so I just get like pictures

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Speaker 1: and pictures of that, you know. I was also getting

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Speaker 1: you know, pictures of Peppy the front raping me like photoshopped,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it was just like you were coming

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Speaker 1: for you and and all of this and and like

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Speaker 1: it never ended because I think in that time I published,

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Speaker 1: I started publishing some like you know, bigger pieces. I

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Speaker 1: published a story they got a lot of attention about

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Speaker 1: my divorce, food in my divorce, and it was titled

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Speaker 1: I'm Never Cooking for a Man Again, which was like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like titles are always a little tongue

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Speaker 1: in cheek, but it was just an exploration of like food,

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Speaker 1: an emotional labor and marriage and and oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that like were super viral and and and just got

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Speaker 1: like a ship ton of shit. I've actually read it

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Speaker 1: and it's it's so touching and like personal and relatable.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny to me that that title was. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we we've all like like having with the piece. It is.

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Speaker 1: It makes so much sense. But I could see how

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Speaker 1: that title will be like enraging for people who were

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Speaker 1: already predisposed to think of you in this negative light.

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Speaker 1: But that's the troll thing, right, It's like just take

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Speaker 1: things at headline value and then use that to crap

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Speaker 1: on people, um, you know, and and I had that.

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Speaker 1: I also published a profile of Richard Spencer's divorce the Nazi.

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Speaker 1: That didn't help. Then I moderate in twenty nine, I

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Speaker 1: moderated a presidential forum and it was you know, I'll

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Speaker 1: say this about the forum, is we had there were

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Speaker 1: three moderators. Um. I was just one of them. UM

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Speaker 1: and they you know, they're both the other two moderators

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Speaker 1: lovely people both marginalized UM and and UM you know,

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Speaker 1: identify as queer in their own ways. And all of

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Speaker 1: the questions we had like co written together, and like

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Speaker 1: many organizations you know, had like vetted, and so I

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Speaker 1: was just really just reading off of a prompter. Here

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Speaker 1: was Liz grilling Biden at the forum. Also praised Vice

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Speaker 1: President Mike Parts as a decent guy asking the questions

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Speaker 1: if people want to know, that's also when Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: called me a real sweetheart because I I pushed him

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Speaker 1: ons and the you know, criminalization bills like that had

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Speaker 1: you know, put more queer people in dayl It's just

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Speaker 1: kind of how it happened. Joe like, no, it's like

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Speaker 1: facts and I had put because he was like, that's

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Speaker 1: not true. And I was like, well it is, so

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Speaker 1: could you could you just talk about it? And and so,

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Speaker 1: And as we were walking off the stage, he's like,

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Speaker 1: you're a real sweetheart. And I was like, I can't

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Speaker 1: believe the presiding. It was not like doing your job

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Speaker 1: as a moderator, right, and like that's the whole thing is,

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Speaker 1: like you know, I asked questions and I follow up

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Speaker 1: and like the please answer the question. I think that's

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Speaker 1: like yes, but like, uh, you know, and it was

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Speaker 1: you know, the power and balance. But after that, I

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Speaker 1: mean that I that also kicked off a huge intense

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Speaker 1: wave and that's when I started getting bomb threats and

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Speaker 1: um one of the other moderators was talking to me

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Speaker 1: the other day and after my peace on Harassment I published,

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Speaker 1: and he was like, you know, I'm never received the

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Speaker 1: same kind of harassment that you did, even though we

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Speaker 1: moderated at the same forum. He's like, He's like, it's

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Speaker 1: just because you're on the radar. Let's take a quick

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Speaker 1: break her back. Liz says that once you're on the

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Speaker 1: radar of a network of harassers online, anything that you

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Speaker 1: say can be used against you. For her, it was

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Speaker 1: a silly joke that she had made about online dating.

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Speaker 1: After a night out with friends and with that kind

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Speaker 1: of threat hanging over you, it can feel like it's

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Speaker 1: not worth it to show up as your full self

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Speaker 1: online because someone somewhere could inevitably take what everything you're

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Speaker 1: saying out of context to harass you. The thing that

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Speaker 1: they always cling to is this one joke I made.

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Speaker 1: It was I was I had said, and this happened,

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Speaker 1: but it was just like I was just joking about.

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Speaker 1: It was like a man on matched with me after

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Speaker 1: I told him I was a journalist. You know what's

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Speaker 1: he hiding? You know? At timed and it's not even

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Speaker 1: that funny. I think it was like a joke. I

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Speaker 1: like tweeted at like eleven PM after I've had like

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Speaker 1: drinks with friends, and I was like, oh, this is funny,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like not, it's not

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Speaker 1: even It's just like okay, Liz, ha ha ha, you know.

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Speaker 1: And but like they screenshot that and every once in

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Speaker 1: a while and it'll just come back up and people

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Speaker 1: be like, did you do this? Did you ducks an

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Speaker 1: innocent man? And I'll be like, I don't even remember

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Speaker 1: his name, but yes, that is that is my joke.

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Speaker 1: Thank you like, it's not that, but that's the thing

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Speaker 1: that comes back up more often than anything else. It's

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Speaker 1: just it's it's weird. I don't know, it's so interesting

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Speaker 1: how that one harmless joke that you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've seen that screenshot so and you know, I can

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Speaker 1: only imagine what it's like for you being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they're they're holy, this this silly joke I made back

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Speaker 1: up again. It will never go away. It's just like

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Speaker 1: I just deserve better enemies. I'm always like I have

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Speaker 1: made first of all, Like, first of all, I've made

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Speaker 1: way worse jokes, way worse. Like do you hear how

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Speaker 1: I'm talking Like I'm I say dumb ship all the time,

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Speaker 1: just constantly literally bite me on literally any other dumb thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm sad, but like and then they're they're all like

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Speaker 1: expect me to be ashamed of it. They're like did

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Speaker 1: you say this? And I'm like, I shure, and they're

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Speaker 1: like did you talx some man? And I'm like, I

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Speaker 1: sure didn't because it's a joke, y'all. And it's and

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Speaker 1: it's funny because like, you know, that was one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I that you know, like a lot

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Speaker 1: of this truly culture is like, you know, the liberals

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Speaker 1: can't take a joke. That's why we're gonna like, you know,

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Speaker 1: make fun of them in like tamp then this is

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Speaker 1: a really nasty way, you know. It's like it's like

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Speaker 1: a generation of men who never learned that they weren't funny.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and it's just like this, it's actually not

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Speaker 1: these are not These are not jokes. Like I have

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Speaker 1: I have friends with the comedian Josh Combleman, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, you should perform a service where people can

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Speaker 1: ask you is this a joke or not? And you're like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like a five year old you know,

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Speaker 1: is this a joke? Nope, Sorry, that's just a fart sound.

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Speaker 1: It's not a joke, you know, Is this a joke? No,

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Speaker 1: you just made a fat joke. You know, You're just

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Speaker 1: you're just making a comment about somebody's weight. Not a joke,

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Speaker 1: not a joke, just some f phobia. Even that joke

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Speaker 1: does illustrate how I guess I feel that on Twitter especially,

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Speaker 1: we've gotten to a point where it's but bad, Like

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Speaker 1: we're not able to have actual conversations or even just

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Speaker 1: communicate because every it's everything is so weaponized and taken

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Speaker 1: in bad faith. Anybody, but you're You're what you tweeted

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Speaker 1: was obviously just a joke, you're kidding around, But there's

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Speaker 1: this assumption that anything anything that you say. I just

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Speaker 1: feel that Twitter is so charged people. Once you're on

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Speaker 1: someone's radar, they're looking for anything anything that you say

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Speaker 1: can be used to be like see, she's the worst. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's so funny because that that thing I

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Speaker 1: wrote about online. Mom's part of it was an interview

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Speaker 1: with the journalist and author or Talia lab laban and Um,

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Speaker 1: who's who helped me through that year of um of

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Speaker 1: harassment and as you just really just because she has

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Speaker 1: experienced it, she wrote this book Cultural Warlords, where she,

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Speaker 1: you know, digs into these communities online, communities of hate

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Speaker 1: and so um and so. But the funny thing about it,

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Speaker 1: and and in that interview, you know, she's very clear,

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Speaker 1: like she's very good at parsing the nuance of what's

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Speaker 1: harassment and what criticism because again, like people are allowed

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Speaker 1: to criticize, like and I'm gonna make mistakes and people

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Speaker 1: are allowed to call out those mistakes. And I never

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Speaker 1: want to be you know, like nailing myself to a

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Speaker 1: cross just because like maybe I sucked up a column,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I'm going to like they're not all

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Speaker 1: gonna be winners. Um, I'm going to fail. And uh.

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Speaker 1: And you know, she does a really good job like

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Speaker 1: pointing out like people saying that Andrew Cuomal, you know,

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Speaker 1: harassed them sexually, that's not an online mob. Like that's

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Speaker 1: just people talking about their experiences and saying this isn't okay.

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Speaker 1: An online mob is you know, putting a picture of

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Speaker 1: somebody's house inside across hears and saying, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: building pipe bombs. Like that's that's the difference. And so

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Speaker 1: but like that that that interview was quote tweeted or

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Speaker 1: like somebody quote tweeted it. It's Glenn Greenwald quote tweeted

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Speaker 1: it and was like, oh, look at the you know,

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Speaker 1: he was basically like, look at these people that don't

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Speaker 1: know the difference between harassment and criticism, and was like,

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Speaker 1: if you were functionally literate, like you would have read

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Speaker 1: it and know that we have like three paragraphs, you know,

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Speaker 1: parsing out that nuance. But again, like it's what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: it's just bad faith. And once you're on somebody's radar

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Speaker 1: and they don't like you everything that you do, They're

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Speaker 1: just gonna hate. Yeah, it sucks. I mean what what

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Speaker 1: does it feel? What does that feel like for you? Like,

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Speaker 1: what does it feel like to be facing that kind

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Speaker 1: of a charged online environment just to do your job

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Speaker 1: every day? Um? It was hard in the beginning. Um.

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Speaker 1: There's something my my therapist likes to likes to remind

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Speaker 1: me of is that, like you level up, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean like is that as you go through

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Speaker 1: life and as you become more successful, you know, you

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Speaker 1: have kind of have these experiences like you have to

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Speaker 1: grow into right, and so yes, that first year of

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Speaker 1: intense harassments are really hard. Um it felt like being

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Speaker 1: in a tunnel, just like I couldn't everything was closing

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Speaker 1: in all around me. And you know, I also live

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Speaker 1: in US. I don't live in a big Well, it's

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Speaker 1: the second largest city in Iowa. People are always like

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Speaker 1: it's the big city. Yes, it's the it's the big

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Speaker 1: city if you're from like you know, a like fair

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Speaker 1: Field or something. But if it's three hundred thousand people,

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Speaker 1: it's not that big. Like uh and uh and and

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Speaker 1: something that happened has happened too, is like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I get emails from people in town and you know

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Speaker 1: or or don't do this to people, by the way,

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Speaker 1: but people like to make me aware when other people

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Speaker 1: in town are discussing me on Facebook, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: please don't because then it makes me scared to go

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Speaker 1: to the grocery store. But yes, people have like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I remember very specifically one woman in town who's a

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Speaker 1: pretty high profile who had like a whole Facebook post

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Speaker 1: discussing my body and how I looked as I moderated

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Speaker 1: that forum, you know, calling me showy and trashy and

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Speaker 1: like I was just trying to flaunt myself and like

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Speaker 1: implying that I was like a giant slut. I was

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Speaker 1: wearing like it doesn't matter what I was wearing, like,

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Speaker 1: but but I was wearing like, you know, just like

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Speaker 1: a standard and like newscaster dress. It was bright yellow

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Speaker 1: because I can wear yellow. I'm like one of the

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Speaker 1: few white people who can do it. It's a tough

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Speaker 1: color pul and it's my one skill and y'all can

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Speaker 1: just eat it, you know, and that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: It makes you feel like you can't be an honor this,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'll go for runs and people will honk

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Speaker 1: at me and it's like, while am I getting is that?

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Speaker 1: My friend? Is that? Is that like a car full

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Speaker 1: of dudes? You know? That? Are you know? It's just

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Speaker 1: like you don't know and it's scary. Or you go

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Speaker 1: the grocery store and people will be like, oh, are

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Speaker 1: you the writer? And you're like, maybe are you the

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Speaker 1: one who participated in talking about what a slut? I

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, it's like I don't, and it's

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Speaker 1: and most people are nice, and most people are good actually,

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Speaker 1: and most people are generous. I think this, I believe this.

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Speaker 1: But when when you're in that harassment zone, and especially

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Speaker 1: when things are really intense, you know that it's usually over.

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Speaker 1: The intensity is over by like a day, two days.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, like you know, it's usually only intense for

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Speaker 1: a couple of days. But it feels like you're in

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Speaker 1: a tunnel. It feels like you can turn everything off.

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Speaker 1: You can turn your phone off, you can turn your

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Speaker 1: internet off. And that's I do recommend that when things

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00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: are bad, log off, don't tweak through up, just log op.

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Speaker 1: You can't win, stay away, have some friends monitor it

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Speaker 1: for you, just to let you know if there's anything.

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Speaker 1: But even if that's happening, you don't know because if

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Speaker 1: they're like targeting where you live, or you're like, what's safe?

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Speaker 1: If the door knocks, You're like, is that? What is that? Where?

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Speaker 1: Do you know? In the most intense times, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was seeing posts like I live thirty minutes from

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Speaker 1: her town? Should I go there? What? You know? It

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Speaker 1: is terrifying. And I I am a single mom. I

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Speaker 1: have two kids and not have two dogs. But it's

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Speaker 1: not an accident that I have two dogs, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's directly related to some of my fears about um,

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Speaker 1: you know, living alone and in being a target of

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Speaker 1: harassment and so um uh and and yes and so

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Speaker 1: it feels like being in a tunnel. One of the

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Speaker 1: things I used I did in the before times when

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Speaker 1: the harassment would get bad, um is I would just

425
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: log off, you know, tell my friends like, don't you

426
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: take take my Twitter pass or change it for a while,

427
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: you know, do all this, and then I would go,

428
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: don't like Marcus theaters, don't get mad at me, but

429
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: sneak little bottles of that cheap setter home home wine

430
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 1: in and then get a big popcorn and then just

431
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: sit in a movie theater. So it just was like,

432
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: I'm safe because nobody with me. I'm you know, I'm

433
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 1: nobody can keeping, nobody knows I'm like seeing this movie

434
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: and um, yeah we're just you know, go to a

435
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: bar and sit outside or whatever. But yes, it does.

436
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: It feels like wow. People might be thinking, you know,

437
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: oh well, I don't write about politics, so I'm not

438
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,239
Speaker 1: like X y Z kind of person, so this can

439
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: never happen to me. But something that you write into

440
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: your piece that I think is important to pull out

441
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: you right, people want to attribute this hate to one thing,

442
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: one moment, or one time that I messed up, one

443
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: story I filed. I think people do that because they

444
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: want to feel safe. They want to think it will

445
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: never happen to them. If you can blame me somehow,

446
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: then you can distance yourself from it all. And that

447
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: one nugget I think is so important because I do

448
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: think there probably are people right now who are listening

449
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: to you speak and they're like, oh, well, that will

450
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: never happen to me because I'm insert thing here. And

451
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: I think that was a real change for me. Was

452
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: what I realized getting on, getting on the radar of

453
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: people who want to make your life miserable online and

454
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: offline as well. It's not one thing you did right,

455
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: and so it's important for everyone to understand that that

456
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: this could be any of us. I was randomly just

457
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 1: talking to somebody for a story I wrote last year,

458
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: and he was like, he was telling me how his son,

459
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: who is a black teenage boy in town, was just

460
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: getting getting that same kind of hate because he just

461
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: posted a picture of himself with his girlfriend, and how

462
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: a troll army found that he just existed, like just existed.

463
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: Um and it just waves and waves and waves, and

464
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: you know, and and and since posting that, you know,

465
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: I've heard from people who are like, I'm a school

466
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: board member and one time I spoke up about guns

467
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: in school, you know, and like I think, actually, I

468
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: think anti gun activists get a lot of this kind

469
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: of harassment. But it's just like you can be a

470
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: school board member. Somebody reached out to me to tell

471
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: me that when they were a team, they started an

472
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: lgbt Q club in their high school. There's a couple

473
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: of years ago and um and and got targeted and

474
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: are still targeted. And they're just like they're just like

475
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: a human and you know, not high profile, like probably

476
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: not even on Twitter. I didn't ask, but like just

477
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: like you just existed, um, and and you got this

478
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: kind of hate. Um. It's yes, you don't have to

479
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: be high profile and obnoxious. And I think that like me, Um,

480
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: I'm not that high profile. Let's not let's not get excited, um,

481
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: but like yes, you just have to exist in a

482
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: way that people don't like, you know, trans people get

483
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: this kind of hate. And that was you know, that

484
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: was actually one of the motivating reasons where I really

485
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about it because I have um friends

486
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: who are trans who are getting a lot of this

487
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: harassment just for existing. And I made the conscious decision

488
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: not to interview one of them because I didn't want

489
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: to put more of a target on their back. Um.

490
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: But like yeah, just like just like living your life

491
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: and being happy if you do so, you know, and

492
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: you get on the radar, like that's it's I mean,

493
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: that's it, it's over. You know, there's a journalist and

494
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: messaging right now, who's you know, like maybe like four

495
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: D followers, Like she writes about sports, but because she's

496
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: a woman who writes about sports, she's like I get

497
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm being in a really intense tor askment.

498
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: I think that's a good point that like it seems

499
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: to be always people who are marginalized until if you're

500
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: a woman, a woman of color, L T t Q,

501
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: Like it seems like it's much worse for us when

502
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: we put our opinions out there. Like I noticed, Um,

503
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: this was one of the reasons where I was like,

504
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: I have to talk about harassment because it's getting to

505
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: be too much. Uh. You mentioned Glenn Greenwald. A few

506
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: weeks ago, there was a USA Today piece where a

507
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: intern had published her first byeline. Her name is Bretta Smith,

508
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: and it was a co byline with another author, Will Careless,

509
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: who was a white man, and it was so interesting

510
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: to me. So Glenn Greenwald retweeted it was like, I

511
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: hope you're like some mean tweet. It was over to

512
00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: his over a million followers. Not like his followers are

513
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: not like the most generous people on the internet, Like

514
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: if you're making the conscious decision to follow him as

515
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: a person and his personal brand is not like it's

516
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: not like you know, kindness, generosity and light more. After

517
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: a quick break, let's get right back into it. We

518
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,239
Speaker 1: talk a lot about free speech online, what it is,

519
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: and who has it, but we need to make room

520
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: to talk about what happens when marginalized voices are pushed

521
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: off of social media because the harassment has gotten so bad.

522
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: And this is ultimately the point of this kind of harassment,

523
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,239
Speaker 1: to make people feel like speaking up and putting their

524
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: opinions out there is just ultimately not worth it. To

525
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,479
Speaker 1: make women and other marginalized voices shut up and just

526
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: stop talking. The silencing effect it has can be real,

527
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: And this is something that Liz wants men to understand.

528
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: I do not think these men need to stop talking.

529
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I would like it if they talked less,

530
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: but that's my own personal decision, has no reflection on

531
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: the constitution or laws that I would like to see

532
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: it changed. Um, But like I, you know, nobody's saying

533
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: you can't talk. But what they are saying is there

534
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: is a difference between when you talk and when I talk.

535
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: When you talk, maybe people quote tweet you until you're

536
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: a potato brain. Fine, When I talk, people tell me

537
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: they're going to kill my kids. And that's the difference.

538
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: And you know that's and and there is a silencing effect,

539
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: and that's the point, Like, the point is the silencing effect.

540
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: The point is the fear. The point is to make

541
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: you look over your shoulder, to make you think twice

542
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: before you have an opinion. And and it's that culture

543
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: of silence and that culture of fear that is bred.

544
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: And I know, I know women who are afraid of

545
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: doing things, of poking their heads. I never learned there's

546
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: something deeply wrong with me. So it actually makes me boulder.

547
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: It makes me me like, no, you don't get to

548
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: dictate the terms on which I live my life and

549
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: on how I write and so but I'm not saying

550
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: there's a wrong way to be. You have to live

551
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,959
Speaker 1: the life that feels good and safe to you. So

552
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 1: I'm not. But it makes me sad, you know, because

553
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: I do know there are voices we do not hear

554
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: because of this fear. And that's the silencing and that's

555
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: the thing we need to be talking about. And that's

556
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: the thing that I think is interesting, right, that who

557
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: gets defended and who gets attacked? Right, You're right, like

558
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: you know, quote tweeting the intern and telling them they

559
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: did a bad job when it's obvious it's probably just assigned.

560
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: You know, it's a code byline with another man, like

561
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: and if you had a problem with the peace, then

562
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,479
Speaker 1: don't attack, like just say I have problem with this piece,

563
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: Like I have a problem. Don't tell that person they're

564
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: bad at there, like there is a why and like

565
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: and and and I actually think that like being harassed

566
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 1: makes me a little bit more of an empathetic person,

567
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: because I it is and you know, it is tempting

568
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: for everybody to like think of like a celebrity or

569
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,719
Speaker 1: somebody who's more high profile, not as a person. Right,

570
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, well, you're just an image. So now

571
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to just talk about like how you look

572
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: on the internet. But it does make me think twice

573
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: about like how I talk about people and how I

574
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: how I criticize things, because you know there there is

575
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: a difference, and there is a line. And um yeah,

576
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: and I think too, if your high profile enough, you

577
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: should know that by now, and you should you know,

578
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: use your power for good not evil. I always, you know,

579
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: try to think like I punch up right, like hold

580
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: power accountable. And that's another thing. I think. It's always

581
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: like she's always like I know your power so that

582
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: you don't abuse your power. So important, Yeah, She's like,

583
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: who are you gonna fight and how are you going

584
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: to fight it? You know, She's like, you need to

585
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: be very conscious of those things so that you don't

586
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: you know, so you don't hurt anybody. You talked about

587
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: the role that Talia, who I loved, played when you

588
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: were harassed, and that it wasn't just you know, keep

589
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: your head up girl, it was here's what you need

590
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: to know. So I wonder, Um, I saw your tweet

591
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: about things that you thought that anybody who was on

592
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: Twitter should do to make sure that they are protecting

593
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: themselves from being targeted by this kind of harassment. Can

594
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: you tell us a bit about what you would suggest

595
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: people do to keep themselves safe. Yeah, very practical advice

596
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 1: and a practical Midwestern mom, so I like practical advice.

597
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: So here's what I think. Number one, A lot of

598
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: people may not know this, but there are websites, hundreds

599
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: tons roots of websites across the Internet that scrub your

600
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: data and then sell it to anybody who's well to

601
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: pay for it, and that's how you basically that's the

602
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: number one way people get docked. Um. There are services

603
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 1: that that will scrub that data off the internet. For you.

604
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: UM and one of the services that I have used

605
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 1: that Talia recommended to me. I think it was Talia.

606
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: It was either that or it was Christopher Matthias, who's

607
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: an incredible reporter who reports on extremism. One of them

608
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: told me very early on, UM used delete me. This

609
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,959
Speaker 1: is not a commercial. Don't get money from them, Like

610
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: I just although the tweet did so well, they like,

611
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: now if you use the promo code l y z L.

612
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: She didn't dropped the promo code. Yeah. By the way,

613
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to brag, but like, I'm a promo code,

614
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: so like I just live in that promo code life. Uh, superficous.

615
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: I told my kids and like, I'm a promo code.

616
00:35:55,360 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: Treat me with respect. And they're like, we're thirsty place,

617
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: we just want some water. Um, where are you talking

618
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: like that? But yes, delete me is a great service.

619
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: There's other ones out there. Delete me is the one

620
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,479
Speaker 1: I've been using for years. There is a promo code

621
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: for twenty percent off. It's a significant amount of money

622
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: h L y z L if you use it. UM

623
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: and then UM other things too. You know, if you

624
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: if you have kids, get all their pictures off the internet.

625
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: Now just do it, uh, you know it, Uh, scrub

626
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: your Facebook. Their services out there, none of them are

627
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: super great, so there's not one I really could recommend.

628
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: I just google around, scrub your Facebook. A lot of

629
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: TV news stations have their newscasters have to facebooks. You know,

630
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: your private one and your public one. UM, consider that

631
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: if you like to use Facebook. I think Facebook is

632
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: necessary for journalists, especially if you report on your own community.

633
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: You kind of need to see what's going on. But

634
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: if you have the auctory of deleting Facebook, just deleteed. UM.

635
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: The thing with Instagram is, um, I have a private

636
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: one in a public one. Now I recommend that, UM,

637
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 1: or just keeping your Instagram private because you don't want

638
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: people finding pictures of you and like photo, you know

639
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: what I mean, like in photo and like being like,

640
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: oh she went to It's just everything will be taken

641
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 1: in bad faith. UM, and you never know the thing

642
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: that people are going to object to, like a stupid joke,

643
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: right Like, UM, I say, automatically delete your tweets. UM,

644
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: it might feel sad, do it? Like, just delete your

645
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: tweets pretty regularly, tweet delete dot net. It's a free service.

646
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: You're just like you know, auto start, auto deleting. Um.

647
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 1: Those are some pretty practical things you can do that. Um.

648
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 1: It won't stop harassment, but it will protect you from

649
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: people knowing where you live. UM, for people knowing the

650
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: faces of your children or your other loved ones. When

651
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: I wrote about Richard Spencer, he went on, you know

652
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: that that like uh, you know, like the chum bucket

653
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: of YouTube shows where he was saying he was saying,

654
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: my the last name that I use is my married

655
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: last name, even though I'm divorced. Now, I just like, well,

656
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: last names are the same. It's just too exhausting to

657
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: go back that he was, you know, using my maid

658
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 1: name and my last name, and I I started worrying

659
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: about my parents, you know, I was like, oh God,

660
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: now they're going to find my parents. It just makes

661
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 1: it harder for people to find that kind of stuff.

662
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 1: And usually like if they can't find it pretty easily,

663
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: then it just it goes away after a couple of hours.

664
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: In most cases, it will go away after a couple

665
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: of hours. But there is something my agent said the

666
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: last time I was going through some intense harassment is um,

667
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: you know, She's like, this happens if you are successful,

668
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: if you are good at your job, like she represents

669
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: a lot of female journalists, and she's like, it never

670
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 1: gets easier. So just find ways, find tools, find people

671
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: to help you, good friends, you know, because the impulse

672
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,439
Speaker 1: is to always feel like, oh did I screw up?

673
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 1: You know, especially if you're not like a narcissist, You're like, oh,

674
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: I must be doing something to deserve this. Nine times

675
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: out attend you didn't. Nobody deserves to get that threats

676
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: and nobody deserves that kind of stuff, no one. Um

677
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: and uh, you know but like nine times out of

678
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: ten you didn't do anything wrong, you know, but have

679
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: friends in your life who would tell you like, yeah,

680
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: that was an offensive joke. You screwed up. Deleted and

681
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 1: go dark for a while, you know, Like just get

682
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: people in your life you can help you and um,

683
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: and reach out, Like if you're in like a really

684
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: going through some harassment you don't know how to handle it,

685
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: like reach out, Like my d m s are open. Um,

686
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: sometimes I close them, but um, they're open now. Reach

687
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 1: out to other journalists. Um. And and that's another thing too,

688
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: is if you see somebody going through something like that,

689
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: reaching out to them, let's is really just saying like hey,

690
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: I see you, I see that this is happening. I'm

691
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: so sorry, you know, or you know, or just like

692
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: I'm here for you. I like you. You know, Um,

693
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: that's you know, that's good. That's good enough, even if

694
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: you know, if you even even if you're like whom

695
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: the article you wrote did, current of suck. Nobody deserves

696
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: death threats. Nobody deserves death threats, and and yes, and

697
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: so those are those are some practical things that I think,

698
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: as much as I hate seeing anybody be going through

699
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: target harassment on social media, something that I have been

700
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: really kind of proud to see lately is but one

701
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: how many individual other journalists are like, we support you.

702
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: You know that a community response I think is beautiful.

703
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: And then to something I think is really important is

704
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: the institutional response. And so when someone is harassed, when

705
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 1: their outlet puts out a statement that is we support

706
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 1: the good work of this journalists. We you know, because

707
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: I think for for a long time, if someone was

708
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: being harassed, they would be calling you know, the outlet

709
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: they work for, and maybe they would be fired. It

710
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: would be like, oh we want to cut ties. Maybe

711
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: they would you know, not stand by them I'm I'm

712
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 1: kind of hardened to see situations where you know, your

713
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,720
Speaker 1: NBC's or ABC's put out statements standing up for their reporters.

714
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: And you know, I will say, like, I have had

715
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: institutions throw me under the bus, and I have had

716
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: institutions stick up for me. I will I will say

717
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: the Columbia Journalism Review has been a staunch supporter of

718
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 1: my work, and I I I think that Kyle Pope

719
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: over there has been amazing in the harassment that I

720
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: have received, you know, for him, I have I have

721
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: profiled Alan Derschwitz, Tucker Carlson, Crystal Is Seth Abramson. And

722
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: if you think that there wasn't pushed back from those articles,

723
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: you're wrong. Grutchen Carlson, that was a weird one. Um.

724
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: And and every single time they have stood by first

725
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: of all, you know, institutionally they provide rigorous fact checking

726
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: so that everything would be airtight, and and then stood

727
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: by me, you know, through through the waves because they

728
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, I've never been like, Kyle, what have

729
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: you done it? But it's um, I think it's because

730
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: they know and they value good work, and yes, and

731
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: so it is encouraging to see when institutions get it right.

732
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: I hate it when institutions get it wrong, but um,

733
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: there are some good examples of things. Let's if we

734
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 1: focus on the positive. I do, and I think that

735
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: knowing that your institution has your back makes you a

736
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: or journalists makes you better at your job. Like I'm

737
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: more willing, you know, to say bolder things or to

738
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: write bigger stories for them because I know I can

739
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: trust them, that I know that you know they'll have

740
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: a lawyer ready and they'll defend me, and they'll be

741
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: proud of me. Media companies and outlets are starting to

742
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: catch up. When journalists like Taylor Lorenz and some men

743
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 1: Cam were harassed online for doing their jobs, their outlets

744
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: put out statements sticking up for them, and some outlets

745
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: have gone even further. Last week, the sports site defect

746
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 1: or Media announced a new policy that would offer support

747
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: to journalists if they found themselves at the center of

748
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: a harassment campaign, including a subscription to delete me, safe

749
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: housing for them and their families should their homes become unsafe,

750
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 1: and assigning someone to temporarily manage their social media accounts.

751
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: Not only is this a good way to support staff,

752
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: but it just acknowledges that online harassment is a real

753
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: thing that staff might have to deal with instead of

754
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: just pretending that it's something just happening online. It acknowledges

755
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: the reality that aline harassment can deeply impact our real world,

756
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: our real work, and real lives. And if people are marginalized,

757
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: the kind of harassment they faith will be worse, you know,

758
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: talking with other men and then get this kind of

759
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 1: harassment too. But I was talking with another writer just

760
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: the other day about this, and he was like, Yeah,

761
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: I've gone through harassment cycles before. He's like, but I

762
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 1: don't think they inspire in me the fear that they

763
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: inspire in you, because you're already afraid to walk alone

764
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: at night, right, Like, these are already fears that you have,

765
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 1: and they they get compounded by your fears online. And

766
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: and this is not all in your head, right. Fear

767
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: is a gift. To read The Gift of Fear. Everybody

768
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: read The Gift of Fear. It's great. Book teaches you

769
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: to trust yourself, like, um, trust your gut and um

770
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 1: I teach that to my daughter, like, trust your gut.

771
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 1: You know, if something feels weird, If an adult feels weird,

772
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: get away from them, and sometimes she'll be like you

773
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: feel weird, not fair, but fine, go to your round.

774
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,439
Speaker 1: Uh it's but yes and so like yeah, but yes,

775
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: like it compounds the already precarious situation of existing in

776
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 1: the world and um, which is you know, so much

777
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: harder for marginalized people. Um. And it's you know, start

778
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: in your head like this, like you know, racism and

779
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: homophobias institutionalized and so yes, yes, so it is different definitely, um.

780
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: And it is encouraging when there you do find places

781
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: that's poor and they're and they're just doing like their jobs,

782
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: like you know, to like say like we have an

783
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: employee and they did this story and we're fine with it.

784
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: But like just I think because we've all just been

785
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 1: so reilroaded by capital that when it does its job,

786
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 1: like it's, uh, we're like thanks mom. Yes, our standards

787
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: are very low. So it's like it's like, oh, you

788
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 1: didn't you didn't toss me like the trash, like great,

789
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: thank you. But no, I do think CDR has supported

790
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: me and my work in some really powerful ways. And

791
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: I don't think that that's nothing and I don't think

792
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,439
Speaker 1: it's a mistake that I have some of my best

793
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: work I've written for them, right and so, um it's

794
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: makes good business sense Stitcher your employee as well. What

795
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: is your advice to underrepresented people, women, people of color

796
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 1: who want to be I want to put their opinions

797
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 1: out into the world, whether as a writer like yourself,

798
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: either just as a social media user. But are understandably scared.

799
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: Um yeah, you know, I say obviously, like you need

800
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: to live the life that you're happiest with, so you know,

801
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 1: like so I I don't think that I can tell

802
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: you what that looks like, and nobody can, but you know,

803
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: and if you're scared, like, yeah, think about that, right,

804
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: like do the work. But there are some simple practical

805
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: stuffs you can take now even if you're just like

806
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: I'm not famous, nobody cares about what I say. Who cares?

807
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: Live Like you're gonna be famous? Start leveling up and

808
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,760
Speaker 1: start taking care of your ship now. Get scrub your stuff,

809
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, lockdown your Instagram's, um, you know, figure that

810
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: kind of ship out, you know, clear do whatever you

811
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 1: need to do with Facebook, which is a nightmare. Um

812
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: and and start doing that now before it gets that

813
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: And then I think that that gives you a place

814
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: of strength from which to operate and then have like

815
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: a game plan. You know, I'm a person who loves

816
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: a plan, so you know, just and having a plan

817
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: for Okay, if this does happen, here's what I'm gonna do.

818
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna log off. I'm gonna have this friend do

819
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: this when I'm this friend. I've had friends monitor of

820
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: my email before. You know, just because like sign out,

821
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: no notifications, can you handle it? Um and and have

822
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: those plans in place? I think it gives you a

823
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: position of strength to operate from and um only right.

824
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: By the way, here's another tip if you're if we're

825
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: talking about writing only right for editors that have your back,

826
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: and you'll know, like, do not write for an editor

827
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: who is going to let you publish something shitty. I

828
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: I used to work as an editor for a literary

829
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: magazine and there were times when I would be reading

830
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 1: an essay that was other love otherwise lovely, but had

831
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: like one or two sentences in it that you know,

832
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: might be fat, shame me, might be a little bit

833
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: not great. And you know, my my comment to the

834
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: author was always, we're taking this out because it brings

835
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 1: down the quality of the piece and you're writing right,

836
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: it's and and but you know there there are websites

837
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,439
Speaker 1: the x O Jane used to do this that would

838
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 1: take people's worst thoughts and impulses put them online, and

839
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,479
Speaker 1: then they become targets. And then they'd be like, why

840
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: did that happen to me? It's like, well, you've wrote

841
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: something terrible in a bad way, and not just once again.

842
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: People don't deserve death threats, but um and I do

843
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: think we don't. That was like the Internet in the

844
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: early aughts a little bit. I feel like people have

845
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 1: most editors will have your back, but don't write for

846
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: editors who are going to throw you under the bus,

847
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: who are gonna, you know, exploit your marginalized identity for clicks. UM,

848
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: be in charge of yourself and your representation. Don't be

849
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: afraid to walk away from UM stories if you get

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00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: a bad vibe, or editors if you get a bad vibe,

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00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: It's fine. I've done a couple of times, m Um,

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00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: just because I'm like, I don't I respect you, but

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00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: I feel like we're not vibing on this piece, and

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00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: it's okay to walk away from it. UM. Things like that. UM.

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00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: I also just like never advocate anybody living a life

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00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: of fear. And so if you're in that place, if

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00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: you feel like all you're doing is operating from a

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00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 1: place of fear, you're not. You're not living your best life.

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00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: So what do you need to do to not be there?

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00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean getting off Twitter? You know, you can have

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00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:35,439
Speaker 1: a life like not online. It's possible. Lots of people have,

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00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,760
Speaker 1: you know, wonderful writing careers and are not on the Internet.

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00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: People exist not on the internet. Um, things happen not

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00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: on internet. So find the life that you need to

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00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: live and lead and don't live in a place of fear. Please,

866
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: nobody wants that for you. And don't be afraid to

867
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,919
Speaker 1: reach out to other people. Um, you know, farm your

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00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: community and to find the people who who love you

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00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: and let us see you succeed and really, you know,

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00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: lean on them. That's beautiful. Where can folks keep up

871
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: with all the amazing stuff that you're doing? Um? Oh

872
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: like a cancel culture warrior. I also have a newsletter.

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00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: It is um it's just Liz dot sub stack dot com,

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00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: l y Z dot sub stack dot com and it's

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00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: called men yell at me. Uh they do. People are like,

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00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: why do you I'm like, I don't know, why do

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00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: they yell? Uh? Don't ask me? But that that's my

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00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: newsletter so um. I Also I also have a Twitter

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00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 1: It's at l y z. I also have a website

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00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: lis lends dot com, um and you can find me

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00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:59,720
Speaker 1: all of those places. If you enjoyed this podcast, please

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00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an

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00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi.

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00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you at Hello at tango

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00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: dot com. Disinformed is brought to you by There Are

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00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of I

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00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and unbost Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

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00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: Tory Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Lamtto

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00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Tod. For

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00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: more great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.