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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Joe McCormick, and today we are bringing you

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Speaker 1: an episode from the vault. This one originally published June

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Speaker 1: twenty seventh, twenty twenty three, and it is the fourth

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Speaker 1: and final part in our series dream Fall Into the Dark.

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Speaker 1: So let's get right into it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 3: is Robert.

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Speaker 1: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 3: And we're jumping right into our fourth and final episode

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Speaker 3: in the dream Fall into the Dark series. Here about

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Speaker 3: the mystique of dreaming, particular times and places where dream

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Speaker 3: culture was especially pronounced. This, of course, won't be our

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Speaker 3: final episode on dreaming. Will inevitably come back to dreaming.

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Speaker 3: Dreaming is always something that's going to come up one

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Speaker 3: way or another in the topics we cover on Stuff

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Speaker 3: to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: But now, Rob, didn't we begin this whole investigation because

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Speaker 1: you got interested in a dream related monster from Japanese folklore.

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Speaker 3: That's right, a particular monster that we will be covering

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Speaker 3: in this episode, but it kind of served as the

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Speaker 3: white rabbit that we pursued and ended up doing three

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Speaker 3: additional episodes not directly related to it or even its

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Speaker 3: direct dream culture. It is a creature we're going to

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Speaker 3: be talking about, a largely a creature of Japanese dream culture,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, we I think it was necessary

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Speaker 3: to talk about much of what we talked about in

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Speaker 3: the previous three episodes to fully appreciate it. But we

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Speaker 3: are going to have to also discuss Japanese dream culture

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Speaker 3: itself before discussing this curious.

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Speaker 1: Creature, right. So, as background, I was looking for a

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Speaker 1: paper on how how dreams have been viewed in Japanese

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Speaker 1: culture across history, and I came across one published in

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Speaker 1: the Journal of Psychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: five by Shoozo Koyama called Japanese Dreams, Culture and Cosmology.

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Speaker 1: So this is a short article by a researcher named

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Speaker 1: Shoozo Koyama, who at the time of the publication worked

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Speaker 1: at the Japanese National Museum of Ethnology in Osaka. Now,

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Speaker 1: of course, the way dreams are perceived in Japan across

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Speaker 1: times seems in broad regard to mirror patterns we've seen

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Speaker 1: in other cultures where there are some people and sometimes

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Speaker 1: who regard them more as private internal phenomena with no

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Speaker 1: informational relevance to the external world or no special power.

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Speaker 1: It's not like a place you go whereas others see

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Speaker 1: them as having a kind of magic or predictive power,

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Speaker 1: or involving genuine interactions with spiritual beings, both good and bad.

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Speaker 1: But what this paper does is look at a series

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Speaker 1: of history periods in Japan and try to make a

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Speaker 1: few generalizations about trends in how dreams were perceived and

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Speaker 1: written about in those periods relative to the other periods.

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Speaker 1: So the author begins by looking at the Joman period,

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Speaker 1: which is about ten thousand BCE until about five hundred BCE.

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Speaker 1: This is a time when Japan was occupied by hunter

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Speaker 1: gatherers who lived in small societies. We've talked about the

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Speaker 1: German culture before, especially with regards to their fabrication of

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Speaker 1: clay potts. I think we talked about this in our

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Speaker 1: episode on the Cauldron, and some evidence in early German

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Speaker 1: culture of transitioning from a hunter gatherer lifestyle to a

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Speaker 1: more settled lifestyle staying in one place. More so in

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Speaker 1: this period, there are no written records so it is

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Speaker 1: difficult to have much certainty about the beliefs and psychology

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Speaker 1: of people at the time. However, we can make some

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Speaker 1: guesses based on iconography preserved in artifacts of this culture.

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Speaker 1: So the German people did make figuring out of clay

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Speaker 1: and stone, representing both human and animal forms. The human

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Speaker 1: forms are very often female, often depicted with exaggerated breasts, stomachs,

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Speaker 1: and buttocks, with their faces hidden behind masks. These are

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Speaker 1: sometimes interpreted as goddesses or figures of fertility, or as

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Speaker 1: substitute human beings who are given up as offerings to

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Speaker 1: the gods, and you'll find them in different kinds of

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Speaker 1: archaeological settings, may be left alone in an abandoned dwelling

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Speaker 1: or deposited in a hole in the ground. As for

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Speaker 1: animal forms, one of the most common is apparently the snake.

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Speaker 1: Snake designs are found on many German vessels, and early

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Speaker 1: snake motifs seem to transition into more abstract forms like

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Speaker 1: spirals or waves in later designs. Late German figurines also

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Speaker 1: depict bears and wild boares, but humans and snakes are

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Speaker 1: especially common. This, according to the author, connects to the

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Speaker 1: role of snakes in Japanese mythology. There is a very

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Speaker 1: prominent story where prince kills or subdues a snake spirit

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Speaker 1: and this act leads to the creation of Japan. And

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Speaker 1: there are also folk tales of snakes that transform into

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Speaker 1: or appear as people, for example, a snake that transforms

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Speaker 1: into a man in order to father children with a

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Speaker 1: human woman, or a man that visits a beautiful woman

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Speaker 1: only to discover that she is actually a snake in disguise,

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Speaker 1: or has a snake spirit that is revealed and he

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Speaker 1: runs away in terror. Now, to be very clear, there

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Speaker 1: is no proof that any of this imagery comes from dreams.

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Speaker 1: But in this period, because there are no written records

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Speaker 1: of dreams, all you can really do is look at

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Speaker 1: the imagery to try to get a best guess about

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Speaker 1: what kinds of non realistic subject matter preoccupied the early

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Speaker 1: inhabitants of the Japanese archipelago now koyaman. This article uses

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Speaker 1: the stories of humans with underlying snake spirits to argue

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Speaker 1: that early Japanese culture is infused with animism, though here

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Speaker 1: I think the author defines animism maybe a little bit

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Speaker 1: differently than I'm used to or than I've seen in

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Speaker 1: some other scholarships. So in this paper, animism is defined

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Speaker 1: as the belief that living beings are composed of two substances,

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Speaker 1: spirit and body, that spirit is intangible and eternal, and

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Speaker 1: that body is visible and tangible but temporal. And of

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Speaker 1: course I'm no expert on the study of religions, but

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Speaker 1: I think usually, or at least more often, animism is

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Speaker 1: taken to me in a belief system that you find

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Speaker 1: all around the world, which assumes that not only people,

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Speaker 1: but potentially all things have a sort of soul or

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Speaker 1: spirit or agency. And this can include animals, of course,

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Speaker 1: but also plants, geological features like mountains and rivers, just

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Speaker 1: generally places, weather patterns, even human artifacts or abstract concepts,

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Speaker 1: and in a sense these all can have a spirit,

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Speaker 1: a soul, or a life force with agency, desires, and

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Speaker 1: other quality of mind. One particular thing that's different here

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Speaker 1: is that I understand animism to notably make little or

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Speaker 1: no distinction between spiritual causes and material causes, whereas this

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Speaker 1: definition of animism, I think, would emphasize exactly that difference.

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Speaker 1: But I don't want to get two sidetracked here. Koyama

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Speaker 1: basically is asserting that that ancient Japanese art and stories

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Speaker 1: point toward a belief dividing the world into a material

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Speaker 1: reality and a spiritual reality that are separate. Now Here

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Speaker 1: you go to Phase two. This period begins five hundred

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Speaker 1: BCE and goes until roughly the fifth century CE. The

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Speaker 1: historical context is that Koyama says, this is when patti

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Speaker 1: ricefield cultivation begins in Japan, probably introduced from practices in

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Speaker 1: China through Korea. Some Chinese documents from this time imply

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Speaker 1: that Japan was probably a large and complex enough society

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Speaker 1: that there were different tribal territories. This is indicated by

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Speaker 1: references to conflicts between them, and during this time there

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Speaker 1: was an influx of new peoples moving in from outside Japan,

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Speaker 1: introducing new cultural elements. There was still plenty of figurative

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Speaker 1: art from this period. Some German conventions continued, and you

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Speaker 1: had depictions of human figures and daily activities. You would

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Speaker 1: find figures depicted hunting, harvesting crops, or seafaring. A lot

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Speaker 1: of animal representations as well, including figurines of birds and dragons,

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Speaker 1: which are not really present in Phase one. Koyama says,

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Speaker 1: it's notable that both of these creatures that show up

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Speaker 1: here can fly and then writes quote. This coincides with

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Speaker 1: the fact that newcomers believed they were the descendants of

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Speaker 1: celestial gods, while indigenous groups were called offspring of gods

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Speaker 1: of the land in mythology. As a symbol of the sun,

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Speaker 1: mirrors were used by newcomers. A quantity of Chinese bronze

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Speaker 1: mirrors have been excavated from large scale tombs, apparently very

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Speaker 1: important artifacts. Decoration on the backs of some mirrors depicted

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Speaker 1: Taoist cosmology, and it's in this period that we have

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Speaker 1: the first refa diferences to dreaming in Japanese culture in

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Speaker 1: written records. There's a collection of Chinese historical texts known

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Speaker 1: as the Way Dynasty Chronicle, which these texts claimed that

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Speaker 1: the Queen of Japan, in Koyama's words quote, governed her

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Speaker 1: nation by shamanism, though I'm not quite sure what that means.

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Speaker 1: So there is a collection of Chinese historical texts known

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Speaker 1: as the Way Dynasty Chronicle, and these texts make reference

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Speaker 1: to the Queen of Japan, and Koyama says that they

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Speaker 1: claim that she governed her nation by shamanism. During this time,

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Speaker 1: there was use of oracle bones to tell the future.

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Speaker 1: In Japan, excavated artifacts demonstrate this. So there was a

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Speaker 1: form of There were forms of divination in practice, and dreams,

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Speaker 1: as we know, are very often in basically all cultures

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Speaker 1: at some points used for divination to try to get

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Speaker 1: access to future information or secret information. There is an

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Speaker 1: eighth century Japanese text text tradition known as the Kojiki,

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Speaker 1: which contains a bunch of myths, legends, and alleged historical

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Speaker 1: accounts of Japan up to the seventh century, and it

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Speaker 1: claims that during this period, dreaming was used to decide

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Speaker 1: important matters of state. And so I'm going to read

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Speaker 1: a quote from Koyami here, but it makes reference to

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Speaker 1: an emperor Sujin. Sujin was a Japanese emperor, often known

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Speaker 1: as one of the so called legendary emperors. Though I've

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Speaker 1: read that something he maybe or probably did exist in history,

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Speaker 1: maybe reigning during the first century BCE or sometime around then.

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Speaker 1: But what we know about him is enmeshed in a

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Speaker 1: lot of legends, so I think it's hard to say

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Speaker 1: a lot for certain if he did exist. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: the chronicle says Emperor Sujin quote had a sacred bed

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Speaker 1: made so that he could dream in order to make

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Speaker 1: a decision in a crisis, for example, to stamp out

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Speaker 1: epidemics or to nominate the heir to the throne. He

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Speaker 1: often listened to the dreams of his subjects in order

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Speaker 1: to make national policy. It is clear that during this phase,

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Speaker 1: people still believed in the supernatural world, and dreaming was

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Speaker 1: considered a domain where qualified persons communicated with powerful spirits.

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Speaker 1: So this mimics beliefs about dreams. We've seen from elsewhere

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Speaker 1: that dreams could be used for divination, that they could

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Speaker 1: help you predict the future, or they could give you advice.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you would be getting advice directly from some kind

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Speaker 1: of spiritual entities who had privileged knowledge, and that in

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Speaker 1: some cases there were specially qualified people who could communicate

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Speaker 1: with these entities in dreams.

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Speaker 3: I love this detail that the emperor had a sacred

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Speaker 3: dreaming bed. That's that's wonderful. This idea that a night's

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Speaker 3: sleep needs to be special. Tonight's sleep is just about

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Speaker 3: a vital dream that will help lead the way.

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Speaker 1: I think you could consider this a form of intentional

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Speaker 1: dream incubation. That you know that we see this in

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Speaker 1: other cultures, like ancient Greco Roman culture. There would be

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Speaker 1: temples where you could go and sleep in the temple

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Speaker 1: in like a special place in order to receive a

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Speaker 1: dream from the God. I guess after you made an

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Speaker 1: offering to the god because you slept in the temple,

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Speaker 1: the dream would be from that God giving you advice

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Speaker 1: about what to do in order to solve your problem. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: After this, Koyama goes to Phase three, which is beginning

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Speaker 1: in the fifth century CE and going into the ninth

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Speaker 1: This was a time when Japan was established as a

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Speaker 1: state and interacted politically with other states in East Asia

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Speaker 1: koamas As. There were strong Chinese influences in Japan at

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Speaker 1: this time, including Chinese law codes, as well as the

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Speaker 1: spread of philosophies and religions that were either Chinese in

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Speaker 1: origin or popular in China already, such as Confucianism, Buddhism,

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Speaker 1: and Taoism. Now, as we've discussed before, I think this

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Speaker 1: came up in talking about that book by Lynn Struve.

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Speaker 1: Confucianism sometimes is taken to militate against supernatural or so

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Speaker 1: called irrational interpretations of dreams. I've read elsewhere. I think

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Speaker 1: that that Confucian thinkers were sort of often not on

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Speaker 1: board with the idea of dream divination, while Taoism, on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, does sort of allow for fortune telling

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Speaker 1: and omens.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's my understanding that sort of three different schools

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Speaker 3: here are in play, but those are sort of the

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Speaker 3: major push and pull between Confucism and Daoism concerning dreams.

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Speaker 1: From this period, Koyama mentions a Buddhist temple coming back

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Speaker 1: to the special dream bed, mentions a Buddhist temple called

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Speaker 1: the Horyuji, which was built in the early seventh century

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Speaker 1: by a prince named Shotoku, and allegedly the prince would

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Speaker 1: lock himself inside this temple for days at a time

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Speaker 1: to receive inspiration, and one of the names of this

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Speaker 1: building translates to dream hall. However, Koyama says that during

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Speaker 1: this period, the primary thing about dreams is that they

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Speaker 1: seem mostly kept private, maybe whether one believed in dreams

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Speaker 1: as divination or not.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so there wasn't as much in the way of

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Speaker 3: dream literature at the time.

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Speaker 1: But then we reach phase four, and it's when we

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Speaker 1: realize we are all just the dream of a giant

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Speaker 1: ant mound no sorry movie reference. Beginning in the ninth century,

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Speaker 1: going on until the thirteenth There is this period Koyama

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Speaker 1: characterizes as the maturation of the political and economic structure

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Speaker 1: of Japan and the establishment of a court culture that

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Speaker 1: includes literature and other elite products. During this period, there

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Speaker 1: is a resurgence of interest in dreams as a tool

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Speaker 1: for seeing into the future. During this period, there is

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Speaker 1: a resurgence of interest in dreams as a tool for

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Speaker 1: seeing into the future. This comes in concert with what

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Speaker 1: seems to be a general resurgence of belief in, or

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Speaker 1: at least interest in supernatural beings and mechanisms like ghosts, demons, wraiths, omens,

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Speaker 1: and curses. And during this period, Japanese Buddhism Kuiamas has

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Speaker 1: incorporated some Shinto elements, Shinto being sort of the native

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Speaker 1: belief system of Japan. Again to the special dream facilities

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Speaker 1: and dream beds, Kuyama writes, quote, some temples and shrines

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Speaker 1: had special compounds for dreaming. People rushed to such places

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Speaker 1: en mass and stayed until they had a good dream.

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Speaker 1: There were professional dream interpreters and dreamers by profession. Nightmares

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Speaker 1: and sleep disorders were commonplace during this period. However, it's

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Speaker 1: important to consider none of these generalizations totalizing because there

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Speaker 1: are some counter examples, like Koyama mentions a tenth century

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Speaker 1: poetic diary known as the Kagerooniki, sometimes called the Gossamer

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Speaker 1: Years in English, in which the author at one point

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Speaker 1: gets a supernatural interpretation of a dream from a priest,

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Speaker 1: and she calls the priest's interpretation of the dream a

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Speaker 1: stupid lie. But the priests did try to give her

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Speaker 1: the interpretation, so it seems maybe that's normal for this period,

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Speaker 1: but the author's reaction suggests diversity of opinion on the

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Speaker 1: power of dreams among the elite. But overall, if Koyama

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Speaker 1: is correct, this is a period where belief in the

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Speaker 1: power of dreams flowers. Then there's Phase five, beginning in

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Speaker 1: the thirteenth century, the rise of the samurai class and

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Speaker 1: its associated power system. Koyama describes them as, for the

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Speaker 1: most part, realistic and practical entrepreneurs. Koyama says literature of

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Speaker 1: this time period shows, on average a sort of turning

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Speaker 1: away from belief in the power of dreams as supernatural

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Speaker 1: portents or realities, at least certainly not as much as

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Speaker 1: there was in the phase before. And one example Koyama

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Speaker 1: gives is a Japanese epic known as the tai Haeiki

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Speaker 1: or the Chronicle of Great Peace. This is written sometime

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Speaker 1: in the late fourteenth century, and in part of this

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Speaker 1: text there is a warrior named Ayoto who quote refused

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Speaker 1: to receive an award after being told that his lord

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Speaker 1: wanted to give it because he dreamt of Aoto's distinguished service.

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Speaker 1: He said, I can't receive such an irrational award. I

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Speaker 1: did nothing. What will happen if he dreams another way?

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Speaker 1: And then Coyama says, quote, for such people, the difference

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Speaker 1: between dream and reality was clearly distinct. And then finally

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Speaker 1: phase six, Coyama says that this is the nineteenth century onward.

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Speaker 1: One of the main changes is the influence of Euro

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Speaker 1: American culture, and Coyama says that on one hand, modern

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Speaker 1: Japanese culture has a predominantly rationalist and materialist view of nature,

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Speaker 1: which relegates dreams to natural psychological phenomena with no predictive

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Speaker 1: power or reality of their own. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: he says, millions still visit Shinto shrines and keep good

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Speaker 1: luck charms in their cars and so forth, and so

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Speaker 1: in some ways, elements of what the author refers to

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Speaker 1: as animistic thinking, which again seems to mean in this paper,

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Speaker 1: the belief in a spiritual dimension of reality that operates

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Speaker 1: outside of strict physical causality can still be found peeking

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Speaker 1: out through the top layer of rationalism. Maybe people kind

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Speaker 1: of shift back and forth between these ways of seeing

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Speaker 1: the world depending on how they feel. Though I would

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Speaker 1: say I don't think this would be at all unique

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Speaker 1: to Japan. It just seems to me this is sort

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Speaker 1: of what most people in all societies do.

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Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, I feel like this comes up time and

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Speaker 3: time again, whether we're talking about say, you know, varying

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Speaker 3: at times contradictory beliefs about the afterlife and how you know,

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Speaker 3: you may think one way in the morning, one way

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Speaker 3: in the afternoon, or kind of two ways at once

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Speaker 3: without really putting a fine line on it. Likewise, I

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Speaker 3: remember when we looked at some research concerning belief in

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Speaker 3: modern China in the power of the zodiac concerning when

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Speaker 3: a child is born, and you know, as I remember,

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Speaker 3: part of that was was not that you had a

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Speaker 3: large number of contemporary people who were super invested in this,

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Speaker 3: like the zodiac system and that belief system, but they

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Speaker 3: were just a little bit aware of it. It's kind

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Speaker 3: of like background superstitious belief that you may dip into

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Speaker 3: at times when it seems useful, when.

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Speaker 1: It feels right, suddenly you'll play on that board. But

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Speaker 1: right maybe most of the time you're not looking at it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Or you have a decision to make and

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Speaker 3: you know, you don't have any other factors to go on,

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Speaker 3: but you do have this bit of you know, traditional

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Speaker 3: lore that is a steeped in superstition. You might turn

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Speaker 3: to that in those circumstances. And I think this also

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Speaker 3: extends to the use of amulets and you know, good

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Speaker 3: luck tokens and so forth. You know, because it's like

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Speaker 3: you may not believe it completely, but hey, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: take a much room in the pocket or on the

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Speaker 3: dash of the car or what have you.

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Speaker 1: A person might say, I don't really believe it, but

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Speaker 1: it's kind of fun. But then once you have it,

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Speaker 1: you can kind of, I don't know, find yourself in

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Speaker 1: moments clutching at it. Yes, But you know, an interesting

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Speaker 1: thing that I think came up in part three of

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Speaker 1: the series is that whether you have a totally rationalistic

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Speaker 1: approach to dreams, you don't really you know, give them

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Speaker 1: any special power. You don't think they reflect a secret

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Speaker 1: reality of spiritual entities interacting or giving you information about

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Speaker 1: the future how to live your life. Even then, you

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Speaker 1: still don't want to have nightmares. So people are looking

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Speaker 1: for ways to have good dreams, whether they think dreams

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Speaker 1: are supernatural experiences or not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of like, all right, I wasn't listening

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Speaker 3: when you were talking about what this dream and what

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Speaker 3: this dream meant. But but you said something about stopping nightmares.

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Speaker 3: So let's get back to that. And that's ultimately where

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Speaker 3: we come to in discussing the monster. At long last,

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Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about the Baku. I encourage

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Speaker 3: everyone to look up some illustrations of the Baku, certainly

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Speaker 3: the historic illustrations, but I also ran across a number

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Speaker 3: of like contemporary, you know, fan illustrations and so forth,

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Speaker 3: online illustrations, and many of those are are also very impressive.

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Speaker 3: I found two major trends in the way that this

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Speaker 3: creature is depicted. One is kind of like the frightening

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Speaker 3: Avenger of Nightmares version of the Baku, and the other

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Speaker 3: is kind of like the I guess the Awe buddy

355
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Speaker 3: version of the Baku, where he just looks looks snugly.

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Speaker 1: The funny thing about the I totally agree, yeah you

357
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,440
Speaker 1: have the scary Baku or the snugly Baku, is that

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Speaker 1: they both look very huggable, and somehow the scary Baku

359
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 1: is even more huggable.

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Speaker 3: Than the two one. Yeah, yeah, I agree, Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: mean and yeah, no matter what, there may be some

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Speaker 3: some snuggling involved at the end of it. So the Baku,

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Speaker 3: I guess just a good place to start is with

364
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Speaker 3: sort of like general descriptions. I always go to Carol

365
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 3: Roses encyclopedias of monsters and fairies and so forth, is

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00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 3: a good like sort of starting place. And in that

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Speaker 3: Rose describes the Baku as a benevolent, semi supernatural monster

368
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Speaker 3: with an appearance that is basically that of a giant taper,

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Speaker 3: but a creature that is also described as having the

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Speaker 3: body of a horse, the head of a lion, and

371
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Speaker 3: the legs and pods of a tiger. Note if you

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Speaker 3: haven't seen an actual taper, a taper is of course

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Speaker 3: a natural world organism. It does not look quite like this,

374
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Speaker 3: though it does look very unique. It is a notable creature.

375
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Speaker 3: I find that when I see one in a movie

376
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Speaker 3: or at a zoo or illustrations online. I can't help

377
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Speaker 3: but feel elated from having seen it.

378
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Speaker 1: To me a taper or tapier, however, you say it

379
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 1: is the three way cross between a pig, a panda, bear,

380
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Speaker 1: and an elephant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess it depends where your starting point is.

382
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Speaker 3: But yeah, taper definitely feels more pig like, Yeah, pig

383
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 3: and rhino based than anything more in the taper here

384
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Speaker 3: in a bit, but the Baku. The idea is that

385
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Speaker 3: humans may call on it in the early morning hours

386
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 3: to devour a bad dream or nightmare that has plagued

387
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Speaker 3: their dream space, allowing them to forget and carry on

388
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 3: their day in peace, which is a most worthy duty.

389
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 3: And I also find it interesting that, you know, this

390
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 3: kind of lines up with the way that the dreams

391
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 3: and especially bad dreams and nightmares kind of hit us.

392
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Speaker 3: There's kind of like that period where we can easily

393
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Speaker 3: forget or easily remember. Like part of the principle of

394
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 3: dream journaling is, oh, you got to write it down

395
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: before you forget it, And with nightmare sometimes that the

396
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 3: challenge is reversed. You've got to not think about it

397
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Speaker 3: before you remember it. You've got to forget it before

398
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Speaker 3: it sticks with you too long.

399
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Speaker 1: That's a good point. Yes, if it was really scary,

400
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: you'll be thinking about it continuously after you wake up,

401
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: which actually cements it in memory.

402
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then there's something about writing it down or

403
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: telling somebody about the dream that certainly brings out the details,

404
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 3: sometimes those details that aren't sticking with you. And then

405
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 3: you start telling someone about the dream or nightmare and

406
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 3: more that comes to you now As a side here,

407
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 3: I was I found it more than a little shocking

408
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Speaker 3: that the Baku is not listed in Borges The Book

409
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 3: of Imaginary Beings, which is another book I like to

410
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: refer to time and time again on the show, especially

411
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 3: given the author's interest in dreams and his reference to

412
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Speaker 3: various dream creatures in the book, Like there are entries

413
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Speaker 3: for like, here's a creature that C. S. Lewis once

414
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 3: dreamed about, that sort of thing. I suppose he just

415
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 3: simply hadn't cross paths with mention of the Baku, otherwise

416
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 3: he would have been.

417
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: All over it.

418
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Speaker 3: Or perhaps it's just not included there, and he's there's

419
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 3: some poem or short story I haven't read by by

420
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Speaker 3: Borges that refers to the Baku.

421
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Speaker 1: So I was reading about the baku in an excellent

422
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 1: book on my shelf on Japanese monsters called The Book

423
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: of Yokai, which is by an Indiana University folklore scholar

424
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: named Michael Dylan Foster. I've mentioned this book on the

425
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: show before, so according to Foster, the baku is a

426
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: is a friendly yokaia, a benevolent yokai. Many yokaia are

427
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: not so friendly, but this one is thought to have

428
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: the power to eat nightmares. But it was not always

429
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: understood this way. Stories of this creature originated in China,

430
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: going at least as far back as a poetry collection

431
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: from the year eight thirty four by the Tang dynasty

432
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Speaker 1: poet by Ju Yi, who lived seven seventy two to

433
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: eight forty six, And according to this text, the Baku

434
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: has nose of an elephant, eyes of a rhinoceros, tale

435
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 1: of an ox, and legs of a tiger.

436
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 3: It would not be incorrect to say that this monster

437
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 3: kind of looks like snuffle Upagus, the imaginary friend of

438
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 3: Big Bird from Sesame Street.

439
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: That's right. But Rob, if you were having nightmares, would

440
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: you consider a possible remedy of this being to skin

441
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: snuffle up agains this text says if you lay out

442
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: the skin when you sleep, you can avoid epidemics, and

443
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 1: by drawing an image of the baku you can avoid misfortune.

444
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: People with chronic headaches can protect their heads by using

445
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: a screen with an image of the baku when they

446
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: go to sleep. So in this ninth century Chinese text,

447
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: the baku is not yet an eater of bad dreams,

448
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: but I think you can kind of see how you

449
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: would get there. So its skin or its image offers

450
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: general protection from sickness, from bad fortune, and from headaches

451
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 1: or chronic pain. However, the protection is enacted by placing

452
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: either a piece of or an image of the baku

453
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: around you while you sleep. So sleep is originally part

454
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: of the protective mechanism, not the thing that is being protected,

455
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 1: though again you can imagine how that transition would occur.

456
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: By the Edo period in the beginning of the seventeenth century,

457
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: the baku had come to be seen in Japan as

458
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: an eater of nightmares, protecting the week when they were

459
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: in the vulnerable position of sleep, and this usually worked

460
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: by placing a picture of the baku near the pillow,

461
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 1: or sometimes people just had a baku shaped pillow.

462
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 3: Now you're talking.

463
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: Do you have a baku pillow?

464
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 3: No, but I love the idea of it.

465
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to get one. This would allow you

466
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: to literally hug the baku, a Foster says. In a

467
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: text called The Three Realms, there is reference to the

468
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: baku which includes the details that the baku has really

469
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: strong bones and teeth, and it's quote it's urine can

470
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: melt iron and turn it into water. What what is

471
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: that used for? Enemy of magneto?

472
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess a lot of this comes down to,

473
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 3: like the fact that we'll come back to it later on,

474
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 3: is that you know, there is a tradition in multiple

475
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 3: cultures really that it's it's not only what the animal is,

476
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 3: but what can the animal be used for? What are

477
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 3: it's various medicinal properties, et cetera. And sometimes this can skew,

478
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 3: this can skew into areas that are maybe a little

479
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: less realistic and more based in magic or some sort

480
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 3: of or maybe something that doesn't translate as well across

481
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 3: the centuries.

482
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh, now there are I know you're going to

483
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: get into this in a minute, so I guess we

484
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: mostly save it for there. But Foster raises the question

485
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: about whether the Baku of folklore is based on the

486
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: taper or not. Basically, there is some question about whether

487
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: it is or not. Some scholars say yes, some say no. Yeah.

488
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 3: The thing that that's notable about the taper is of

489
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: course that there are are four species of taper in

490
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 3: the world today. Three of them are native to Central

491
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 3: and South America, and then you have the Malayan taper,

492
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 3: which is found in Indonesia, Malaysia, Myanmar, and Thailand.

493
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: Notably none of those places are Japan, right, so.

494
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 3: There would there would have to be some degree of

495
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 3: this game of telephone concerning the form, function, and likeness

496
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 3: of the particular animal in question, as you see with

497
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: other animals, where we've talked about in the show plenty

498
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 3: of times before and we will continue to do so.

499
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: I mean, it's one of the most fascinating things in

500
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 3: the history of naturalistic art and imaginative art, you know,

501
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 3: taking this form and then seeing what happens to it

502
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 3: when you start talking about it and then depicting it,

503
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 3: you know, not even halfway around the world, but just

504
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: you know, a good distance away from it.

505
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: Yes, and this feeds into one of the final observations

506
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: that Foster makes, which I think is very interesting. So

507
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: Foster again makes reference to the fact that the baku

508
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: is described as having like, you know, legs of a tiger,

509
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: tail of an ox, So it is a hybrid of

510
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: many different animal parts, and Foster says this is typical

511
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: of how lots of yokai are described, and in a

512
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: way this allows them to exist in between the realms

513
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: of real and imaginary, because all of the parts are real,

514
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: but their combination is imaginary. But there's another interesting wrinkle

515
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: here when it comes to pre modern Japan. Foster writes,

516
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: quote to people living in Japan during the Edo period

517
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: or earlier, the very parts from which the creature was

518
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: constructed were as strange and foreign as their unnatural combination. Elephants, rhinoceroses,

519
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: and tigers were not native to Japan. The average Japanese

520
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: person during this time would have seen one only in

521
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: illustrations and books, if at all, the same places that

522
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: might also have images of the baku. That is, a

523
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: baku was presumably no more mysterious and also no less

524
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: real than a rhinoceros. So it's an unreal combination of

525
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: real animal parts, but most of those real animal parts

526
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: are from animals that you never would have seen in person.

527
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 3: Wow. Wow, interesting. Now I found an interesting paper about

528
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: the baku or concerns tobacco that I'm going to trial.

529
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 3: Some info here from a titled Cultural note on Dreaming

530
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: and dream Study in the Future. Release from Nightmare and

531
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 3: Development of Dream Control Technique by today O. Hori, published

532
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 3: in Sleep and Biological Rhythms in two thousand and five. Now,

533
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: the author here, you know, points out some things that

534
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 3: are they're pretty standard. Weve already touched on this already.

535
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 3: That you know, nightmares can be quite unpleasant. Obviously, they

536
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 3: can disrupt your sleep, and since they disrupted your sleep,

537
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 3: they can disrupt your waking life as well, both as

538
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 3: a result of lost sleep and the emotional and cognitive

539
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 3: after effects of the nature of nightmare, without even getting

540
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 3: into again the more extreme cases of parasomnia and night

541
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: terrors and so forth. Additionally, as Horry points out here,

542
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 3: stress and trauma in the waking world can only intensify

543
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 3: bad dreams and nightmares. So you know, there are a

544
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 3: lot of reasons for the content of your dreams, the

545
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 3: contents of your nightmares, and just nightmares in general. To

546
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: be just this added thing that you would like very

547
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 3: much to have removed. And if given the choice, obviously,

548
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 3: if we were to choose between good dreams and bad

549
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: dreams each night, we would choose the good dreams. But

550
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 3: Horry writes that in the ethnic groups and culture is

551
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: examined in their research anyway, there aren't really any prescribed

552
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: methods to have a good dream. Rather, there are various

553
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 3: rights in formulas to eliminate nightmares or minimize their impact.

554
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 3: I found that an interesting idea, like it did remind

555
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 3: me of something from my own childhood, but I don't

556
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 3: remember if it was something that I saw on a

557
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 3: TV show. I think it might have been, or to

558
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 3: what degree it was something that one of my parents

559
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 3: introduced to me. But there was this idea of an

560
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 3: imaginary dream machine that before you go to bed, you like,

561
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: you know, you think about this dream helmet or whatever

562
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: that you're putting on or some sort of machine you're augmenting,

563
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 3: and you tell it what you want to that night,

564
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 3: like you put in your order. Which is a great idea,

565
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 3: and you know, to some degree, if it actually worked

566
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 3: to any degree, and I remember, even as a kid,

567
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 3: I found that it did not. It had no impact

568
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 3: on what I was going to dream, and therefore I

569
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 3: didn't stick with it because it obviously didn't work. Like

570
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 3: you learn really quickly that dreams are just going to

571
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 3: do their own thing. And for that reason, I don't

572
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 3: think I ever really introduced it to my own son,

573
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 3: because I'm like, I'm not going to tell you this.

574
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: This doesn't work at all.

575
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: I wonder if the effectiveness of it would be kind

576
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: of similar to what people do when they're trying to

577
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,959
Speaker 1: practice lucid dreaming, where, for example, one thing people do

578
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: is like constantly making a habit of asking yourself if

579
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: you're dreaming right now, so that the habit will resurface

580
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: when you are dreaming. I wonder if that kind of thing, like, so,

581
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: if you do the dream machine often enough, it will

582
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: maybe cause it to buy habit come to mind during

583
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: a dream and then you can remember, hey, wait a minute,

584
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: I was supposed to be programming this.

585
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I guess it could work if you were

586
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: the sort of kid that really stuck with it, you know,

587
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 3: But I guess I was the kind where there were

588
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 3: no immediate results and therefore I abandon it. Good job quitting,

589
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 3: I went, like, I say, I feel that same way

590
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 3: with with lucid dreaming. Like at times like this, I'm like,

591
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: why haven't I apply myself to lucid dreaming? Why are

592
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 3: my dreams so so non lucid? But I don't know.

593
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 3: There's just there's enough to worry about without without really

594
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 3: getting in on the dreams.

595
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: You got a waking life to live.

596
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 3: So Hoary divides this sort of nightmare inhibition into in

597
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 3: technique into two categories. Amulets are charms to eliminate nightmares,

598
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 3: and then development of techniques to take control of the

599
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: dream and push it in a positive direction, a lucid

600
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 3: dreaming approach to nightmares. And maybe that's the thing too.

601
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 3: Maybe if I on the whole suffered from more nightmares

602
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 3: or stress dreams or what have you, I would be

603
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 3: more inclined to pursue lucid dreaming as an escape. Okay.

604
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 3: So on the first note, amuletce Hore discusses two main

605
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 3: varieties that are popular in contemporary Japan, and that is

606
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: the baku, but then also the dream catcher. This I

607
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 3: was not expecting. The dream catcher is of course not

608
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 3: a Japanese cultural creation, but rather one that originates with

609
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 3: the indigenous First Nations people of North America, particularly parts

610
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: of what is now Canada. The Ojibwe people are often cited,

611
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 3: though I think usage in production spreads with sort of

612
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 3: the Pan Indian movement of the sixties and seventies. The

613
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 3: basic principle of the dream catcher is that the night

614
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 3: air brings both good and bad dreams, and the dream catcher,

615
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: like a spider's web, catches the bad and allows the

616
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 3: good to prosper in the sleepers.

617
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 2: Now.

618
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 3: I believe that the main usage was intended for infants,

619
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 3: But now in America dream catchers, you know, they're quite

620
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 3: popular as a native craft item. This happened I think,

621
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 3: originally in the nineteen eighties and spread from there. But

622
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 3: Horrey writes that they became exceedingly popular in Japan following

623
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 3: a popular year two thousand TV mini series. I believe

624
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 3: it's kind of like a melodrama or romance sort of

625
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 3: thing titled Beautiful Life. Now, I was not familiar with this.

626
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 3: This is not like a genre of Japanese pop culture

627
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 3: that I generally have any exposure to. You know, this

628
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 3: is not a monster movie or horror movie, sci fi,

629
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 3: et cetera. This is a broad appeal like big you know,

630
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 3: TV production I looked it up, though, and I saw

631
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 3: that it starred Takua Kimura. He's the actor who voiced

632
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: Howel in the original Japanese language version of Howe's Moving Castle.

633
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 3: I looked at like some write ups of what the

634
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 3: plot is about. I saw nobody exactly where these dream

635
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 3: catchers are used, if they factor into the plot at all,

636
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 3: or if they're just you know, in the background. But whatever,

637
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: it was really popular show, and people saw it and

638
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 3: they're like, we want in on that, and dream Catchers

639
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 3: became popular, though according to Horri, it ended up focusing

640
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 3: more on young people rather than babies.

641
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 1: Now.

642
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 3: The baku, on the other hand, as we've been discussing,

643
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 3: is largely rooted in Japanese traditions, and I guess to

644
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 3: a certain extent, kind of paves the way for this

645
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 3: fascination with dream catchers. Like there's already a you know,

646
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 3: an appeal for some sort of an amulet too to

647
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 3: discourage nightmares and therefore encourage positive dreams, And so when

648
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 3: one is introduced from another culture, you can see why

649
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 3: people might gravitate towards it. Now, as we've been discussing,

650
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 3: primarily it's impossible to escape the taper. When it comes

651
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 3: to understanding what the baku is like. By most accounts

652
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 3: like this sounds like a taper. We see depictions of it.

653
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 3: It looks most like some you know, exaggeration or telephone game,

654
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 3: all the taper. But you also find discussions on the

655
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 3: possibility that it might have originally and it's Chinese origins,

656
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 3: which you already alluded to here, it might have originally

657
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 3: been something like a giant panda. Now Hori does not himself,

658
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 3: does not really go into this, but notes that the

659
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 3: baku was of course a charm animal in China, going

660
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 3: back to you know, seventeenth century writings, and perhaps it

661
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: is already sometimes depicted as a taper here, though it

662
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 3: may not have actually been associated with dream eating. Like

663
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: we said, you get back into the origins of the

664
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 3: baku and you get further away from the idea of

665
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 3: consuming nightmares.

666
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems to be a later development.

667
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 3: Now, an interesting note though about the panda here. At

668
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 3: this point I looked at a book by Burned Brunner

669
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,959
Speaker 3: titled Bears a Brief History, and the author here points

670
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 3: out that despite the fact that the panda now stands

671
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 3: as kind of a quintessential Chinese animal. You know, we

672
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: think about it as such. In modern times, there are

673
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 3: few ancient writings about them, and the writings that may

674
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 3: be about them are difficult to nail down because of

675
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,479
Speaker 3: just how vague they are. An early possible account from

676
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 3: the Chin Dynasty third century BCE might be about a

677
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 3: white fox, or some people think, well, maybe it's a panda.

678
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 3: There's an even older mention that could allude to a panda,

679
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 3: but also could be a leopard or a tiger, So

680
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: it gets again exceptionally vague and therefore difficult to say

681
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 3: whether we're actually talking about a panda or not. For instance,

682
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 3: there are discussions later on in Chinese writings about white bears,

683
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 3: but it seems as likely, if not more likely, that

684
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 3: they're actually talking about polar bears encountered by northern travelers

685
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: and word having spread about them. And then there are

686
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 3: additional possibilities that there are other bears, like from India

687
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 3: that are being written about. So it's interesting to that

688
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 3: the panda is also underrepresented in traditional Chinese medicine compared

689
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 3: to other animals. Again getting back to like, okay, what

690
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 3: is the animal and then what can be broken down

691
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 3: about it to benefit humans. Some haven't interpreted this fact

692
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: as being due to the animal having a sacred status,

693
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 3: but the author in this case questions that, pointing out

694
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 3: that well, you know, it really did not have a

695
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 3: role in Chinese lore to suggest sacred production like it's

696
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 3: you know, it seems to be barely mentioned, and if

697
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 3: it is mentioned, it's mentioned only vaguely. So that's interesting.

698
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 3: I feel like I need to look into that more

699
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 3: in the future. So it seems like, based on what

700
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 3: I've been reading, that the idea that the baku might

701
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 3: have originally been a panda possible, but it doesn't seem

702
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 3: extremely like it doesn't seem like there's a lot of

703
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 3: like firm evidence for that, Okay, but I believe according

704
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 3: to Horri here though, there you know, as it undergoes

705
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 3: exaggeration and transfer into Japanese, you the proper baku. You

706
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 3: know that the nose of the what is probably a

707
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: taper becomes an elephant, the eyes become those of a rhino,

708
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 3: the tail of a cow, legs of a tiger, hair

709
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 3: of a lion. It gets spots whereas it didn't have

710
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 3: spots before. And the creature's diet is said to consist

711
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 3: of strange things like iron and copper and sometimes bamboo,

712
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 3: which certainly you know, made me think again about the panda,

713
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 3: But I don't know, it doesn't seem like strong enough

714
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 3: evidence to really start forcing the panda into the conversation

715
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 3: more than it's necessary.

716
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: This doesn't really have any relation to the baku. But

717
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: I just have to say, on a recent trip to

718
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: the to the zoo where we were watching the Atlanta Zoo,

719
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: where we were watching the panda enclosure, we saw the

720
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 1: feeding happen where they were throwing new branches of bamboo

721
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: down to the pandas so they could eat them, and

722
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: one of the pandas literally just collapsed into a pile

723
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: of bamboo branches or unleashing a mighty crashing sound. If

724
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 1: it's literally just like rolling in its food, very fun and.

725
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 3: They love it. I guess one of the reasons I

726
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 3: keep wanting to think about the panda in this role

727
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 3: is that you can imagine the image, especially our modern

728
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 3: understanding of the panda, lines up with the way we

729
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 3: may think about the taper, and you can imagine a

730
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 3: panda having this kind of status and role in one

731
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: superstitious understanding of dreams. But I don't know how that

732
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 3: really would rack up and compare with historic understandings of

733
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 3: pandas in China, especially considering wild pandas, but hard to

734
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 3: say for sure. So Horri writes that we don't know

735
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 3: when the baku ultimately crosses the sea into Japanese traditions,

736
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 3: but that screen illustrations from the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries

737
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 3: depict the creature. It becomes very popular with the common

738
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 3: people during the Edo era, I believe, as you alluded

739
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 3: to earlier. Horry points out that during the seventh through

740
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 3: eighth centuries, a sacred animal called the hockey was associated

741
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 3: with nightmare consumption, and that you still see some of

742
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 3: this reflected. This was originally an imperial court practice, but

743
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 3: you see some of it reflected in the Setsubun ceremony

744
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 3: that still practice today. We discussed this in our bean

745
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 3: episode about like pelting one or demons with beans in

746
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 3: order to drive them out of say a school or

747
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 3: what have you. The baku, however, seems to sort of

748
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 3: take on this sacred role and replaces the hockey when

749
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 3: it enters Japanese traditions. So this seems like a possible

750
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 3: way of looking at the evolution of this monster like

751
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 3: you already have perhaps a role for some sort of

752
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 3: dream eating creature, even if it's not fully developed. And

753
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 3: then here comes this new sort of sacred creature that

754
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 3: is associated with protective qualities, and maybe these two kind

755
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 3: of get wrapped into one. You know, this is a

756
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 3: common thing you see with traditions of magical creatures. You know,

757
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 3: they don't there are morphous over time, they change shapes,

758
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 3: they converge with other creatures, and sometimes they separate as well.

759
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: The danger of steamrolling over nuance and how folklore evolves.

760
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 1: I really do wonder if the fact that the baku

761
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: is cute played a role in It's in a role,

762
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: and it's evolving to fill this niche of protecting children's dreams.

763
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's a there's certainly a larger discussion

764
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 3: to be had there concerning not only the universal appeal

765
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 3: of cute, but also obviously cute has a tremendous history

766
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 3: in Japanese culture as well. So Hore shares that old

767
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: Baku amulets show things like a ship filled with rice

768
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 3: or just characters representing baku, and this was from when

769
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 3: it was a higher class affair for the emperor in

770
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 3: his circle and a ritual of sleeping with it, you know,

771
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 3: on or under your pillow. And this was something that

772
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: would be carried out once a year to clear out

773
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 3: the past year's bad dreams, which I thought was interesting.

774
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 3: It wasn't necessarily a situation of like I had a

775
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 3: bad dream, I need to fix this, or I might

776
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 3: have a bad dream tonight I need to fix it.

777
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 3: It's more like market on the calendar. It's time to

778
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 3: clear out all those bad dreams. All the past year's

779
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 3: bad dreams are gone.

780
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: It's like a nightmare leaves a stench that's sort of

781
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: hanging in the air, and you bring in the baku

782
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: to like waft it all out.

783
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. The boat that is depicted on these ambulance apparently

784
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 3: the ideas the boat becomes loaded with these bad dreams

785
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 3: again that have been accumulated over the course of a year,

786
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 3: A whole boatload of them literally or symbolically intends tell

787
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 3: you look at it. I guess. Anyway, they're loaded up

788
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 3: on this boat, and then the boat goes out, sails

789
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: out into the waters of purification. It's essentially dumping them.

790
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 3: I guess, you know. As time goes by, these depictions

791
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 3: show more treasure aboard the Baku ship, and in time,

792
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 3: you know, the common people adopted ritual as well. Horry

793
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 3: writes that it eventually loses the association with nightmare purification

794
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 3: to a large degree and becomes kind of more of

795
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 3: a mascot of happiness and kind of a good luck

796
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 3: token as well. So it's interesting how we see the

797
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 3: Just as we see the rise and fall of dream

798
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 3: emphasis within a given culture, you could also see that

799
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 3: associated with particular practices, amulets and mythical creatures. By the way,

800
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 3: in this paper, there's at least one really interesting thing

801
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 3: that Horry brings up that's not Baku related at all,

802
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 3: concerning dream manipulation superstitions in Japan. But they do mention

803
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 3: that there is this pre modern practice where it is

804
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 3: said that if you want to see your loved ones

805
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 3: in your dreams, and I think this may relate more

806
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: to loved ones who are deceased, you could wear your

807
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 3: clothing inside out when you go to sleep and that

808
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 3: would help manipulate the nature of your dreams.

809
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: Any insight into the magical logic there.

810
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 3: It reminds me of things in general that we've touched on.

811
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 3: It reminds me of things in Russian folklore that we've

812
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 3: talked about before, you know, the idea of wearing clothes

813
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 3: backwards or doing something interesting with the buttons, Like there's

814
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 3: something about manipulating the order of things in the waking

815
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 3: world that can then have some sort of a relationship

816
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,720
Speaker 3: on the supernatural world or in this case streams.

817
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: Wasn't it that, like, by wearing clothes backward in the

818
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: Russian folklore you would like defend yourself against ghosts or

819
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 1: monsters or something.

820
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, or it concerned well, what was their name, the

821
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 3: wild one, the man of the woods?

822
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: Oh, the Leshie.

823
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe it came up in the Leshie that.

824
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: Would lure people off the path.

825
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, though I think it's come up elsewhere as well,

826
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 3: maybe in I want to say, Irish folklore and superstition.

827
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 3: You know, I think it's a motif you see pop

828
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 3: up here and there. You know, this idea that there

829
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 3: if something's out of line with your clothing, there's some

830
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 3: potential slip into the other world. I guess one of

831
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,439
Speaker 3: the interesting things about this to me is that it's

832
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 3: not just necessarily about good versus bad, But in this

833
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 3: we're getting in the depiction into the distinction between dreams

834
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 3: that are just you know, clutter, you know that that

835
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 3: you don't want, and having a dream that has some

836
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 3: connection to a realm beyond the waking world in this case,

837
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 3: like the realm of the dead, the realm of past

838
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 3: lives and so forth.

839
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. So I could see like wearing your

840
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: clothes inside out might somehow grant you access, But that

841
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: does seem somehow different than because again if well maybe

842
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: I'm not even remembering this right, but if I am

843
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: remembering it right, with the Russian thing, it was like

844
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: that wearing the clothes backwards would somehow protect you. That's

845
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: almost like that would keep you more grounded to reality

846
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: or maybe prevent these creatures from recognizing you or something.

847
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 3: I don't know. Yeah, yeah, like somehow messes with how

848
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 3: this world interacts or touches with the other world or

849
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 3: creatures of that other world. So we've covered some key

850
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 3: dream cultures here from particular periods in these episodes, but

851
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 3: there's so much we didn't get into. Like you just

852
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 3: in passing horror mentions that there's a strong Malaysian tradition

853
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 3: of dream control, and I didn't have time to follow

854
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 3: up on that and see what that might consist of.

855
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 3: But it would be interesting to hear from from listeners

856
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 3: out there if you know of any other great examples

857
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 3: of some sort of robust or even just very slight

858
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 3: seeming method of changing or altering or controlling the flow

859
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 3: of dreams, be it related to an amulet or a

860
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 3: childhood you know, nursery, rhyme, or story. We'd be very

861
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 3: interested to hear.

862
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 1: About that totally. Does your culture have something like a

863
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: baku you want to tell us about.

864
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 3: Or do you have just additional tales of the baku?

865
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: Did you have a baku pillow?

866
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 3: I did a quick search for baku pills and I

867
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 3: could not find one that is shaped like a baku.

868
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 3: But I did see one on a popular online retailer

869
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 3: that that does have a depiction of a baku on it,

870
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 3: and it looks very nice. But of course we know that,

871
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 3: you know, I feel like you would also have to

872
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 3: be really comfortable for my purposes, like I need a

873
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 3: very specific pillow if I'm going to have if I'm

874
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 3: hoping to have decent dreams.

875
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't think I ever had a pillow with representative

876
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: art on it. I think I've had boring pillows my

877
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 1: whole life. Never had like a spider Man pillow or anything.

878
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 3: I never did. But my son has gone to I

879
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 3: don't know, at school or camps. They sometimes make pillow cases.

880
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 3: So he had one that was decorated with with Pokemon

881
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 3: not too long ago that he'd made himself, so you know,

882
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,959
Speaker 3: you can always make your own baku pillow for sure.

883
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: Do the Pokemon protect him from bad dreams?

884
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe, I mean one does wonder at

885
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 3: times if you're if you're obsessing about something and you

886
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 3: have that kind of like childhood obsession level for it,

887
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 3: if you can control the nature of your dreams in

888
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 3: that way. Because my son is always talking about how

889
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 3: like he's obsessed with them with Zelda right now, and

890
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 3: so he'll he'll have dreams about playing Zelda and about

891
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 3: or about the world of Zelda, which is great, And

892
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 3: at times I'm like, I was, like, I wonder, like

893
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,439
Speaker 3: what some of the differences are between the adult mind

894
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 3: and the childhood mind, because there are plenty of things

895
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 3: that I get obsessed about that are, you know, a

896
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 3: wonderful distraction from the real world, But I end up

897
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 3: not dreaming about them, or I don't remember those dreams.

898
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 3: I have dreams about other things that don't make any sense,

899
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 3: or things that aren't like key to to you know,

900
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 3: central to my interests or even my my anxieties, at

901
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 3: least not on a you know, a really obvious level.

902
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: You know, I'm gonna say my gut instinct about this.

903
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 1: So I'm not speaking for any science I've read or anything,

904
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,399
Speaker 1: but my suspicion is that you are much more likely

905
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: to dream about an obsession if that obsession has a

906
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: spatial component. So video games are very much something you

907
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: could dream about because they, I mean typically they have

908
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: a simulated environment with spatial dimensions that you explore. Similarly,

909
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: I think people have a lot of dreams when they're

910
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: obsessed with, like houses or something like that. That kind

911
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: of content seems especially prone to turning up in the

912
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 1: dream world.

913
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 3: But then like movies we watch for the podcast, subjects

914
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 3: we research for the podcast nothing.

915
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if those have as much of

916
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,280
Speaker 1: a spatial component. I mean, like a movie is shot

917
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: within spaces, but you don't really imagine inhabiting those spaces

918
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: moving through them.

919
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 3: Hmm. Interesting, Well, you know, i'd love to hear what

920
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 3: everyone else has to say about this. You know, well,

921
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 3: we all have different sorts of dreams. Are they're different?

922
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 3: It's kind of a question, b is you know, are

923
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 3: there particular things you do in the real world or

924
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 3: obsess about in the real world that seem to have

925
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,320
Speaker 3: more of a guaranteed connection to the subject matter of

926
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 3: your dreams?

927
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, how's my spatial hypothesis? Hold up? Blasted out of

928
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: the water? Come on, all right, we're going to go.

929
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 3: And close it out there, but we'd love to hear

930
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 3: from everyone out there. Our core episodes of Stuff to

931
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 3: Blow Your Mind publish and the Stuff to Blow Your

932
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 3: Mind podcast feed on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but we also

933
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 3: do a lit your Mail episode on Mondays, so write

934
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 3: in that's where we'll discuss those messages. On Wednesdays we

935
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 3: do a short form monster fact or artifact episode, and

936
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 3: on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just

937
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 3: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

938
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If

939
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

940
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

941
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello. You

942
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

943
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: Mind dot com.

944
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

945
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

946
00:53:40,320 --> 00:54:01,919
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.