Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Chuck here. I'm going back in time.
Speaker 1: Let's all go back in time together. In fact, this
Speaker 1: Saturday for our select episode to Summertime, August fifteenth, twenty seventeen.
Speaker 1: And this one is about stuttering, how stuttering works. It
Speaker 1: is pretty interesting, actually, so check it out. Welcome to
Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's
Speaker 2: Charles W Chuck Bryant, and there's no our guest producer today,
Speaker 2: which means it's still Stuff you should Know.
Speaker 1: That's right, the Jerry Free edition.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels weird. Eh. She was like, I can't
Speaker 2: do this today. I'm going to the mall. She's always
Speaker 2: leaving us for the mall.
Speaker 1: I know, that's weird. Ever since we did that mall
Speaker 1: episode and she learned it was a thing.
Speaker 2: Right, you know, She's like, this sounds like my kind
Speaker 2: of place.
Speaker 1: How are you doing.
Speaker 2: I'm doing pretty good. I'm been wanting to do this
Speaker 2: one for a long time. Yeah, And I think I
Speaker 2: started to research it and I was like, oh man,
Speaker 2: maybe we went on tour or something like that. I
Speaker 2: got pulled away from it and never went back to it,
Speaker 2: So I'm glad we're doing it finally.
Speaker 1: So stuttering if you're in North America or Australia and
Speaker 1: stammering if you're in the UK. Perhaps is that how
Speaker 1: it works?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I know that stammering is what they
Speaker 2: call it in the UK. Do they call it stuttering
Speaker 2: in Australia as well?
Speaker 1: Yeah? This thing I pulled up just said. In general,
Speaker 1: it's North America and Australia say stutter. In UK they
Speaker 1: say stammer But it's the same thing.
Speaker 2: Right, it's basically I think the way that they get
Speaker 2: around that is calling it disfluency. No one calls it that,
Speaker 2: the scientists do.
Speaker 1: I never heard that word.
Speaker 2: Sure, disfluence, So I think that's actually the clinical name
Speaker 2: for what we call startering or stammering, depending on where
Speaker 2: you are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And wasn't that Colin Firth movie called The Disfluent
Speaker 1: Prince Who Would Be King?
Speaker 2: Yep? I think that was the working title what they
Speaker 2: call it, The King's Speech?
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty good movie. That was cute, cute it was.
Speaker 2: Anytime you get Jeffrey right in there in an inspirational role,
Speaker 2: it's gonna be a cute movie. No, not Jeffrey right,
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Rush Yeah, I agreed. Jeffrey Wright always plays like
Speaker 2: the super smart, like kind of like a deep state guy.
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Wright. He was Baskeocht right, I'm not thinking of
Speaker 1: the right guy.
Speaker 2: Did he play basket Yacht?
Speaker 1: I think so.
Speaker 2: I don't think so in the movie Baskeocht.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Isn't Jeffrey Wright.
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
Speaker 1: It's Jeffrey Wright.
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Wright has been in tons of stuff. Just look
Speaker 2: him up. You'll be like, oh, that's Jeffrey right.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is.
Speaker 2: Going terribly already. This is basically like the podcast equivalent
Speaker 2: of stuttering, because Chuck stuttering, also known as stammering better
Speaker 2: known as disfluency, is an interrupted flow of speech. Okay,
Speaker 2: but what when it starts to qualify for what we
Speaker 2: would call like stuttering or stammering, it is it's really noticeable.
Speaker 2: It's it has an interrupting effect, typically on the conversation
Speaker 2: or the communication that's meant to be going on, the
Speaker 2: speaking that's going on that's on the far end of
Speaker 2: the spectrum, on the on the other end of the spectrum.
Speaker 2: Apparently just about everybody engages in disfluent speech. I'm particularly
Speaker 2: guilty because I say a lot, and that's a form
Speaker 2: of disfluency. And disfluency Chuck comes from the idea that
Speaker 2: that when you speak fluently, you're speaking in a flowing
Speaker 2: manner that is easy to follow typically and is uninterrupted.
Speaker 2: But when you start adding things like or pauses or
Speaker 2: that kind of thing like that, that's disfluency. And again,
Speaker 2: disfluency is a normal part of communication if it occurs
Speaker 2: about less than ten percent of the time. After that
Speaker 2: you start to get into the stuttering slash stammering spectrum
Speaker 2: or side of the disfluent spectrum.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and one thing I learned, You know, you and
Speaker 1: I both QA quality assure each episode, which means it's
Speaker 1: a little behind the curtain peak. But Jerry will send
Speaker 1: them back to us and you listen to it once
Speaker 1: and then give her any like edit notes or whatever
Speaker 1: and thoughts, and then I will listen to it and
Speaker 1: generally I have no edit notes.
Speaker 2: Found that I know we're both gonna be so self
Speaker 2: conscious about that.
Speaker 1: Well, that's where I was getting to though. I found
Speaker 1: early on when listening to these episodes of ourselves that
Speaker 1: it's it doesn't pay to focus on dysfluency in our
Speaker 1: own language because it can.
Speaker 2: Drive you nuts, it really can.
Speaker 1: And so we have a conversational podcast, so we're not
Speaker 1: trying to you know, we're not Churchill or Henry or
Speaker 1: was it Henry the six now.
Speaker 2: Yeah it was, I don't remember. Just Calin Firth, how
Speaker 2: about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're not Colin Firth addressing the country on the airwaves,
Speaker 1: where it was very important that he come across as
Speaker 1: you know, a certain had a certain fluency. But when
Speaker 1: it comes to stuff like this, I think people are
Speaker 1: used to the fact, like occasionally we'll get emails that
Speaker 1: go you go to say like an am a lot right, and.
Speaker 2: We're just like response, is better luck finding a different podcast?
Speaker 1: Yeah this is not for you. No, So anyway, I
Speaker 1: learned to not drive myself crazy with that stuff. No.
Speaker 2: But it's funny you bring that up because I was
Speaker 2: just yesterday listening to the Stockholm Syndrome episode for stuff
Speaker 2: you should know selects right, and I must have said
Speaker 2: like five times over the span of ten words.
Speaker 1: You can't even listen to that, But.
Speaker 2: Even I noticed it. I normally have I'm pretty good
Speaker 2: about tuning it out, but even I noticed at that time,
Speaker 2: and it really kind of raises this issue that the
Speaker 2: whole thing about starting or stammering is not that it's
Speaker 2: a it's a disorder or disease, or the sign of
Speaker 2: an unintelligent person, or that the person can't think of
Speaker 2: what they mean to say. It's absolutely none of those things.
Speaker 2: It is strictly an interruption in what we would consider
Speaker 2: normal communication, and so attention is drawn to it, and
Speaker 2: it turns out that that just makes the problem worse
Speaker 2: and worse, so it it turns into this vicious cycle
Speaker 2: to where but that's all that, That's all it is.
Speaker 2: That's it, that's really it. And I mean, like there's
Speaker 2: there's different theories about what's behind it or what could
Speaker 2: make it worse and what could possibly make it better,
Speaker 2: but really all it is is just interrupted communication between
Speaker 2: two people. Because it's not like the person who's who's
Speaker 2: stuttering stutters in their head, like it's strictly when they're
Speaker 2: speaking and communicating with other people. So it's it's pretty
Speaker 2: it's a unique. It's a unique condition.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're they're generally three ways in which that
Speaker 1: flow can be interrupted. One is repetition. So if you
Speaker 1: say the first few like the beginning of a word,
Speaker 1: if you repeat it a few times in a row
Speaker 1: and then say the word, another would be prolongation. So
Speaker 1: if the word is like you would, you would roll
Speaker 1: that l out by itself for a long time, and
Speaker 1: then the last would be an abnormal stoppage, which is
Speaker 1: just no sound at all coming out. Yeah, block, yeah,
Speaker 1: a complete block. Have you you know anyone with a
Speaker 1: severe stutter?
Speaker 2: Sure? Yeah, I've known people with stutters before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know somebody with a very severe stutter. And
Speaker 1: it's always interesting because I think, and we'll get to
Speaker 1: like what you should and shouldn't do as a participant
Speaker 1: in a conversation with someone who stutters. But before I
Speaker 1: read this, I knew that just as a courtesy, what
Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't do, which is correct, is try and
Speaker 1: complete someone's sentence for them, even though that urge is there.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just a natural instinct because people do that,
Speaker 1: you know, when speaking all the time if someone can't
Speaker 1: think of a word or something. But like you said,
Speaker 1: that's not what's going on.
Speaker 2: No, no, And I mean that, And I think that
Speaker 2: urge also comes from a a good place typically like
Speaker 2: you're not You're not saying like, uh, pitch is the
Speaker 2: word stupid. That's not what you're saying when you when
Speaker 2: you when you finish their sentence, you're helping them along, right,
Speaker 2: to keep the conversation on track, right, But what you're
Speaker 2: also doing is saying you're not communicating effectively. I'm jumping
Speaker 2: in and taking over on your behalf. Just sit there
Speaker 2: and be quiet. So, yeah, we'll talk more about what
Speaker 2: to do or what to what not to do when
Speaker 2: you're in a conversation with somebody with a stutter and I.
Speaker 1: Don't know what you mean. You're trying, you're trying to help.
Speaker 1: You're not trying to like be a jerk. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: it's it's not a help.
Speaker 2: No, it's not.
Speaker 1: But I imagine they also understand to a certain degree.
Speaker 2: Too well, probably just from being exposed to it so much, Yeah,
Speaker 2: for so.
Speaker 1: Long, and some people feel, you know, like with anything
Speaker 1: like this, some people might be used to it and
Speaker 1: have been like, well, you know, that's how I talk.
Speaker 1: I've tried to uh correct it, and I've kind of
Speaker 1: learned to live with it, and people might still feel
Speaker 1: really bad about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I read a a I guess an essay a
Speaker 2: blog post basically by a guy named man I can't
Speaker 2: find it anywhere, great great blog posts where he said
Speaker 2: I recognize and accept my stutter, and it was on
Speaker 2: say dot org. His name is Danny Litwack l I
Speaker 2: t w A c K Litwack. Maybe I embrace and
Speaker 2: accept my stutter. It's great. He talks about his his
Speaker 2: experience with growing up with a stutter his whole life
Speaker 2: and just what a negative impact it had on him
Speaker 2: for a very long time. And I saw this elsewhere.
Speaker 2: But the first step toward either either getting past your
Speaker 2: stutter or just getting over the fact that you have
Speaker 2: a stutter, is accepting that you have a stutter. And
Speaker 2: that's a that's from what I can gather, a really
Speaker 2: big first step, because I think people recognize that they
Speaker 2: have a stutter to themselves, but there's also are they
Speaker 2: take measures to protect against sharing that with other people.
Speaker 2: So I read another story about another person who grew
Speaker 2: up with a stutter and when they got to I
Speaker 2: think college or something. On the first day of this
Speaker 2: one class, everybody went around and said where they were from,
Speaker 2: and this person said that they forgot where they were from,
Speaker 2: rather than having to say Wilmington, Delaware because of the
Speaker 2: W and the D. So instead they told the class
Speaker 2: they forgot where they were they were born and grew.
Speaker 1: Up because in that case there were certain triggers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the W and the D, the W and Wilmington
Speaker 2: and the D in Delaware. So there's like a lot
Speaker 2: of obfuscation that people with stutters engage in. People with
Speaker 2: stutters are not to be trusted in other words, but
Speaker 2: they have to they have to basically just take steps
Speaker 2: to make it seem like they don't have a stutter.
Speaker 2: And I think what this guy Danny Litwack was saying.
Speaker 2: And then, like I said, I saw elsewhere people saying,
Speaker 2: like I have a stutter, like this is how I talk.
Speaker 2: You're gonna have to like either just walk away during
Speaker 2: the conversation or just let me finish on my own time.
Speaker 2: But this is me and this is how I talk,
Speaker 2: and I'm accepting it or learning to and you're gonna
Speaker 2: have to as well. And that's the first step, as
Speaker 2: I understand it. Once you're an adult, I should say.
Speaker 1: I think there are so many things in life where
Speaker 1: that's the case. Oh yeah, man, Instead of like at
Speaker 1: a certain point at a certain age, you, I think,
Speaker 1: or at least I got to a point where like, well,
Speaker 1: I can really continue to work to try and change
Speaker 1: the thing, or I can just accept that this is
Speaker 1: kind of who I am, right and be happy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't worry, be happy now.
Speaker 1: So don't ever strive to be better people. Just accept
Speaker 1: how messed up you are.
Speaker 2: Right, and force everyone else around you to accept it.
Speaker 1: Should we take a little break here, All right, We'll
Speaker 1: take a break and we'll come back and get into
Speaker 1: of the stats, and house stutters can develop right after this,
Speaker 1: all right, so we're back. I promise stats. Yeah, the stats,
Speaker 1: you shall receive one percent roughly of adults in the
Speaker 1: world stutter. Yeah, but that is not one percent of children,
Speaker 1: because many times have in fact, about seventy five percent
Speaker 1: of the time, well five percent of children stutter, and
Speaker 1: about seventy five percent of time they will lose that
Speaker 1: disfluence as they grow older, right, leaving that at a
Speaker 1: one percent number as adults.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so in the US there's that means there's
Speaker 2: about three million or so, maybe three and a half
Speaker 2: million people adults that stutter. Right, More women, is it?
Speaker 2: More women, and more men and more men more men,
Speaker 2: and it's like four to five in childhood and then
Speaker 2: it goes to like three or four in adulthood. So
Speaker 2: by far, men stutter more than women. And although in
Speaker 2: strangely boys tend to naturally lose their stutter if they're
Speaker 2: going to lose their stutter in childhood more than girls.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't think they found any rhyme or
Speaker 1: reason to that at all.
Speaker 2: Right, No, man, there's there's like a lot of lack
Speaker 2: of understanding as far as stuttering goes scientifically socially, there's
Speaker 2: just we just don't know that much about it, which
Speaker 2: is surprising because apparently as far back as Moses, people
Speaker 2: have been stuttering on record.
Speaker 1: We'll tell that story later. Oh, okay, about sixty There
Speaker 1: could be a genetic basis because about sixty percent of
Speaker 1: people who stutter have a family member who stutters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I also saw that among monozygotic also known
Speaker 2: as identical twins, if one twin stutters, there's a ninety
Speaker 2: percent chance that the other one does as well. Oh interesting,
Speaker 2: But for die zygotic, like fraternal twins, there's only a
Speaker 2: twenty percent chance. So there's clearly a genetic basis to stuttering.
Speaker 1: Somehow, right, But it's also one of those things where
Speaker 1: it can be genetic, doesn't have to be. Sometimes if
Speaker 1: you like suffer a head trauma, you might develop a stutter. Right.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's developmental. Sometimes it could be obviously with something
Speaker 1: like Parkinson's disease, that could be a symptom. But those
Speaker 1: are to me, I think, probably different kinds of stuttering,
Speaker 1: but still shuttering.
Speaker 2: Right. So there's basically two main categories. Developmental, which is
Speaker 2: by far the more the one that accounts for the
Speaker 2: most cases of stuttering. Yeah, and then the others acquired,
Speaker 2: like you said, say from like Parkinson's or they put
Speaker 2: you on a prescription that like suddenly is making you stutter.
Speaker 2: There's also psychogenic, which is supposedly an emotional trauma can
Speaker 2: give you a stutter. I don't know if that's just
Speaker 2: leftover lore, because apparently they used to think all stutters
Speaker 2: were the result of some psychology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they.
Speaker 2: Just say, well, no, it's possible, or some people have
Speaker 2: it and just haven't figured out that it's not the
Speaker 2: case at all, or if there really is a small
Speaker 2: section of people who do have psychogenic stutters, but all
Speaker 2: of those would fall under acquired and then the other
Speaker 2: one is developmental boy.
Speaker 1: How about that guy that took mushrooms and quit stuttering? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so interesting.
Speaker 2: I saw a Ted talk at his once.
Speaker 1: Really.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like all about mushroom saving the world.
Speaker 1: Paul's dammit.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He he leads off our article on how stuff
Speaker 1: works and he had a severe stutter. Was very affected
Speaker 1: by it, kind of Withdrew socially. Went camping one time,
Speaker 1: took a bunch of psychedelic mushrooms and climbed a tree,
Speaker 1: got up there, decided he could not climb down, and
Speaker 1: then the storm came in and got really intense, and
Speaker 1: he he said he sort of felt one with the world,
Speaker 1: which sounds about right. And eventually the storm passed. He
Speaker 1: came down and while he was up there during this
Speaker 1: intense experience, he was like, I will not stutter anymore,
Speaker 1: and he just kept saying that. Came down and he
Speaker 1: had lost his stutter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and apparently he didn't relapse, which is pretty unusual,
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: So he started studying mushrooms for a living.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he became a mycologist. Yeah, man, and I gotta
Speaker 2: I've said this before, I'll say it again. One of
Speaker 2: the best articles I've ever read my life was called
Speaker 2: blood Spore, Yeah, and I think it was in Harper's
Speaker 2: and it was about a murder in the world of mycologists.
Speaker 2: It was just so interesting.
Speaker 1: Blood Spore coming soon to a theaternew I hope so
Speaker 1: you should write the script.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Stamids was remarkably lucky in that he just
Speaker 2: basically decided not to stutter anymore and stop stuttering. Apparently
Speaker 2: the fact that he didn't relapse is probably what's most remarkable,
Speaker 2: because I think relapsing among stuttering treatments is actually pretty common.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, but again, this is once you get
Speaker 2: out of childhood. It's fairly common to have to develop
Speaker 2: a stutter as you're a child, as you're learning to talk,
Speaker 2: and then it's equally common to lose that that stutter
Speaker 2: as you age, usually within eighteen months of developing the
Speaker 2: onset of the stutter. But then as you acquire this
Speaker 2: or develop this stutter as you get older, it apparently
Speaker 2: becomes more and more set in. And that seems to
Speaker 2: be because of the plasticity of your brain when you're
Speaker 2: a kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Start, it's almost like, from what I can gather, it's
Speaker 2: like if you have a stutter past a certain point,
Speaker 2: it almost gets locked into your brain as your neural
Speaker 2: pathways solidify and cement. Yeah, like you learned to have
Speaker 2: a stutter after a while.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think they say to wait. I think
Speaker 1: they wait like three months before they even start looking
Speaker 1: into it, because that's how fleeting a stutter can be
Speaker 1: when you're a little kid. Right after three months, they'll say,
Speaker 1: all right, maybe we should start looking into this.
Speaker 2: Right, you would want to go to a speech pathologist
Speaker 2: to be able to diagnose it. Yeah, And usually what
Speaker 2: they're looking for and you take your child who's developed
Speaker 2: a stutter to a speech pathologist is how pronounced it is.
Speaker 2: There's a guy in I think the late nineties named
Speaker 2: Barry Guitar. He sounds like he played, you know, guitar
Speaker 2: for the band Boston.
Speaker 1: He knows all the chords. No, wait, that's guitar George.
Speaker 2: Right, Sorry, what's that from?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Come on, guitar George? Is that a Ray Stevens song?
Speaker 1: No, it's from Dire Straits Sultan's of Swing.
Speaker 2: Oh gotcha. That's a good song. Yeah, it is a
Speaker 2: good song. I love it so very Guitar came with
Speaker 2: five levels of stuttering development. And I already referenced the
Speaker 2: first I know his name's all that. I already referenced
Speaker 2: the first level, which is you you have less than
Speaker 2: ten percent of your speech is disfluent. That's that's anybody
Speaker 2: walking around like that, right, Yeah, unless you're like the
Speaker 2: King of England or something. And then ironically unless you're
Speaker 2: that one king who had a stutter. Yeah, and then
Speaker 2: it goes on the from there and just gets worse
Speaker 2: and worse. But one of the things that's attendant with
Speaker 2: these different stages of development of a stutter are like
Speaker 2: emotional problems or symptoms like comorbid symptoms along with the stutter.
Speaker 2: So there can be things like blinking, like like pursing
Speaker 2: your lips, where you're frustrated, where you're angry, where you're fearful,
Speaker 2: where you're anxious, in conjunction with stuttering. And so this
Speaker 2: is the kind of thing that the speech pathologists will
Speaker 2: be looking for to kind of diagnose your kid like, no,
Speaker 2: this is just normal kid stuff. Or actually the stutters
Speaker 2: developing faster than we'd like it too, so we need
Speaker 2: to start treating it now.
Speaker 1: Well, that makes sense because dopamine. We talked a lot
Speaker 1: about dopamine on the show The neud Transmitter. If you
Speaker 1: have an overabundance of dopamine we talked about in the
Speaker 1: Tourette's episode, Right, is that one of the things that
Speaker 1: can be comorbid with stuttering because I know too much
Speaker 1: dopamine can lead to a stutter as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, supposedly, so Dopamine controls movement, right, Yeah, and if
Speaker 2: you have too much, it makes you have ticks like
Speaker 2: Tourette you're.
Speaker 1: Saying, well, it can.
Speaker 2: So I noticed this that Parkinson's and dopamine are I
Speaker 2: think they're like Parkinson's has to do with too much dopamine. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and Parkinson's is one of the ways that you could
Speaker 2: acquire neurogenically a stutter. Yeah, So that makes total sense
Speaker 2: that there's something in your brain with dopamine transmission to
Speaker 2: where you have maybe too much of it, and so
Speaker 2: you're trying to you're having trouble but getting the thoughts
Speaker 2: in your head into the movements that it takes to
Speaker 2: create the speech.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's a little clumsy the way the
Speaker 1: brain does this. It would be a lot easier if
Speaker 1: it was streamlined in one part of the brain, but
Speaker 1: there are two distinct parts of the brain that deal
Speaker 1: with language processing, and one is the one that processes
Speaker 1: it and one articulates it with in a motor skill way.
Speaker 1: And when those two things have done brain imaging mapping
Speaker 1: and they found that there's some sort of discontinuity between
Speaker 1: those two processes going on. Right, Well, there's a stutter.
Speaker 2: That's stuttering, right, so it could be too much dopamine.
Speaker 2: That's one thing again, the research into stuttering is so
Speaker 2: basic at the moment, it's it's really surprising. What they're
Speaker 2: trying to figure out, though, is are you born with
Speaker 2: the stutter like you when you're born, You're you're going
Speaker 2: to have this problem because your your brain isn't using
Speaker 2: dopamine properly or overproducing dopamine, or are you as your
Speaker 2: brain's developing, something goes a little off to the side
Speaker 2: to the left and your brain has trouble with dopamine
Speaker 2: from that point on. So they're trying to figure out
Speaker 2: the etiology of it.
Speaker 1: In other words, did you look into this the genes
Speaker 1: the four genes?
Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 1: Did do you find names for those?
Speaker 2: I did not?
Speaker 1: That isn't either.
Speaker 2: That is how basic the research is right now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they're not even saying what genes they're finding.
Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently they did discover four different genes that are
Speaker 1: linked to these proteins. And these proteins are sort of
Speaker 1: like they're responsible for what's called cellular trafficking, so they
Speaker 1: kind of make sure that the elements of the cell
Speaker 1: end up where they need to be within that cell. Right,
Speaker 1: And they said that more than one neurological disorder can
Speaker 1: be linked to this trafficking process, So I guess it's
Speaker 1: related to those proteins in those genes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they're like, who knows, Well, just like they've
Speaker 2: gotten to the point where they have identified there's something
Speaker 2: up with these proteins in the cells and it's linked
Speaker 2: to stuttering somehow. Now just give us like ten years
Speaker 2: to go figure out how, right, But yeah, they're starting
Speaker 2: to realize now there's some sort of genetic basis to
Speaker 2: this to stuttering.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think the twin study that says
Speaker 1: a lot right there for sure. You know, yep, can
Speaker 1: we talk about Moses.
Speaker 2: I think it's high time we talked about Moses. We've
Speaker 2: been dancing around the burning bush for a while now.
Speaker 2: I can't believe that guy will laugh.
Speaker 1: Well, I was laughing because every time I think of
Speaker 1: burning Bush, I think of three Amigos and how funny
Speaker 1: that singing Bush was.
Speaker 2: I never saw that one.
Speaker 1: Three Amigos.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could do the three amigo salute, but I
Speaker 2: never saw it.
Speaker 1: Oh man, that's a classic. Really yeah?
Speaker 2: Really?
Speaker 1: Oh sure? Why is that surprising? I don't know.
Speaker 2: I feel like I would have seen it if free
Speaker 2: comedic icons.
Speaker 1: You're right, funny movie.
Speaker 2: Oh I know why I never saw because chevy Chase
Speaker 2: is in it. Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I remember my dad raised me a really dislike chill
Speaker 2: That's right, so I probably wasn't allowed to see it.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: You see Fletch, right, I think I stopped watching Fletch
Speaker 2: like part way through. My dad had a real influence
Speaker 2: on me. And why didn't he like chevy Chase.
Speaker 1: Though, I have no idea you had a bone to pick.
Speaker 2: I guess I think he thought he was a jerk
Speaker 2: or something.
Speaker 1: Well he was all right.
Speaker 2: It turns out dad was right, all right.
Speaker 1: So Moses, I know a lot about the Bible, because,
Speaker 1: as listeners know, I was raised in the church. But
Speaker 1: I didn't know this. I don't remember this story at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hadn't heard it either.
Speaker 1: So apparently Moses uh was a little baby at one point,
Speaker 1: and the Pharaoh said was warned, you know that Moses
Speaker 1: was was gonna not be his friend when he grew up.
Speaker 1: So he said, all right, let me try something out.
Speaker 1: I'm going to give this little baby, Moses, a choice
Speaker 1: between a bowlful of gold and a bowlful of hot coals.
Speaker 2: That's what you do with babies.
Speaker 1: Jesus the gold, then I'm going to kill him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, typical typical Egyptian stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so of course with a baby, Moses is going
Speaker 1: to reach for the gold. And then apparently an angel
Speaker 1: intervened Todd Todd the angel and directed little Moses' hand
Speaker 1: to the hot coals instead.
Speaker 2: A little gruffly, if you ask Moses.
Speaker 1: Moses grabbed a hot coal put it in his mouth,
Speaker 1: and that's how he got to the stutter.
Speaker 2: And he's blamed Todd ever since.
Speaker 1: And here's what I don't get is that Moses went
Speaker 1: to God and was like, hey, man, I'm supposed to
Speaker 1: lead the people out of Egypt. I have a bad stutter.
Speaker 1: Can you you know, can you do something for me
Speaker 1: for God?
Speaker 2: And God said no sweat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he said God, mister ed.
Speaker 2: You didn't know that, yeah, because he was God.
Speaker 1: So God said, yeah, sure I can help you out.
Speaker 1: Just have your brother Aaron take the mic.
Speaker 2: Right, And Moses was like, I was more thinking like
Speaker 2: you'd perform a miracle on me, but yeah, I probably
Speaker 2: could have thought of having Aaron speak for me as well. God,
Speaker 2: thanks for that, though.
Speaker 1: I don't know how I missed that story.
Speaker 2: He apparently there's a quote I am heavy of mouth
Speaker 2: and heavy of tongue, and I saw some Bible sight
Speaker 2: where they were debating whether or not what they were
Speaker 2: talking about was a stutter. Apparently, some later Hebraic text
Speaker 2: said that Moses had trouble pronouncing th h's thorn sounds
Speaker 2: it sounds more like he had a lisp than a stutter.
Speaker 2: Who knows. Let's go as stuttering though, because lot of
Speaker 2: people do say that Moses had a stutter, but he
Speaker 2: over king. Yeah, it's pretty thick. It's I've gotten used
Speaker 2: to it, but I remember at first when we first
Speaker 2: started doing this, like, man, I should not be speaking
Speaker 2: for a living like this is I have a speech impediment,
Speaker 2: pure and simple.
Speaker 1: No, it's just everyone now, just thinks, Hey, that's Josh's voice.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's so grating, smooth and silky.
Speaker 1: M hm. Who else in history.
Speaker 2: Josh, let's see the emperor Justinian apparently, or no, I'm
Speaker 2: sorry I was wrong. It was Demosthenes. He was a
Speaker 2: Greek statesman. He apparently was smart enough to say, who
Speaker 2: could help me with a stutter? Oh? How about an actor?
Speaker 2: Somebody who speaks broadcasts their voice for a living. So
Speaker 2: he hired an actor to help him, and that actor
Speaker 2: had him do things like chew on pebbles and try
Speaker 2: to talk.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Smart, he's He did his speeches while he's walking uphill.
Speaker 2: I guess to control his breathing. This is actually pretty
Speaker 2: sharp stuff. I think out of all the historical treatments
Speaker 2: that we're going to cover, this one might most closely resemble,
Speaker 2: aside from the mouthful of pebbles, modern treatment for stuttering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is to say speaking exercises.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Well, you did say Justinian. I don't know if Justinian
Speaker 1: had the stutter, but his at the very least his physician,
Speaker 1: Atis of Amita, was one of the first people to say, Hey,
Speaker 1: maybe that the frenulum, you know, that little flap of
Speaker 1: skin under your tongue right the connector to the bottom
Speaker 1: of your mouth. He was the first one that said,
Speaker 1: why don't we start slicing that thing up and just
Speaker 1: the tongue in general. Over the years there have been
Speaker 1: all kinds of surgeon that tried variations of slicing the
Speaker 1: friend or cutting down of the tongue itself.
Speaker 2: Now, I could probably use that one by HD Chiguine chegouine.
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's how you say it the second way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he basically said, stuttering as a result of an oversized tongue,
Speaker 2: which I have. Let's just slice and dice a little
Speaker 2: off the sides. But no, of course it didn't work.
Speaker 2: It's just horrific apparently. Though at the same time there
Speaker 2: were these surgeons who get all the press because their
Speaker 2: stuff is so horrific. But there are also other people
Speaker 2: who were kind of on the right track a little
Speaker 2: more like Moses Mendelssohn in the eighteenth century. He thought
Speaker 2: that there were too many ideas or thoughts that were
Speaker 2: flowing at once, and that it was basically it was
Speaker 2: blocking speech. There's too much trying to get out, basically
Speaker 2: like the three Stooges model of stuttering. Remember they're all
Speaker 2: trying to go through the door.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, so you've got too much to say
Speaker 1: and you want to just get it right. Interesting, that
Speaker 1: makes a little sense.
Speaker 2: Erasmus Darwin. He said that it was bashfulness, emotions like
Speaker 2: bashfulness that messed up the process of speaking, right, okay,
Speaker 2: definitely onto something there as well. And then a psychologist
Speaker 2: named Sandow said that it was brought on by either
Speaker 2: a dread of speaking or an over eagerness to speak,
Speaker 2: kind of like what Moses Mendelssohn was saying in the
Speaker 2: latter example.
Speaker 1: Can they brought out by two completely opposite things?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So a lot of this actually is kind
Speaker 2: of in step with our current thought about stuttering. And
Speaker 2: so either that means that these guys in the eighteenth
Speaker 2: century were prescient, or our understanding of stuttering is stuck
Speaker 2: in the eighteenth century, right, I'm very curious to know
Speaker 2: which one it is.
Speaker 1: Shall we take a break? Yeah, all right, We're going
Speaker 1: to come back after this final break and talk about
Speaker 1: therapies that don't involve cutting your tongue apart. All right. So,
Speaker 1: now we're in the modern days and we're not taking
Speaker 1: scalpels to the frenulum any longer because they've realized that
Speaker 1: it's not a physical affliction of the tongue. It's somewhere
Speaker 1: inside the brain most likely. Yeah, and they have a
Speaker 1: lot of recommendations for when a child starts to stutter
Speaker 1: in it and it sticks. And you found some other
Speaker 1: tips too, which are great for parents, and kind of
Speaker 1: one of the main ones is is give your kid
Speaker 1: plenty of room to talk, plenty of time to talk,
Speaker 1: make sure they express themselves fully, because one of the
Speaker 1: side effects of having a stutter is your child may
Speaker 1: just end up retreating and being super quiet.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I got from this these tips for parents that
Speaker 2: there's kind of this maybe not fully spoken idea that
Speaker 2: you can actually cement your child's stutter if you handle
Speaker 2: it poorly. Yeah, when they start to develop it, which
Speaker 2: knowing that just makes you even more tense about dealing
Speaker 2: with it correctly, I guess, which could make the whole
Speaker 2: process even even harder. But there are some pretty brainless
Speaker 2: things to do. This one almost killed me when I
Speaker 2: saw it. Chuck the site I think Kid's Health is
Speaker 2: where I got this one, but it said maintain natural
Speaker 2: eye contact with your child. Try not to look away
Speaker 2: or show signs of being upset. Yeah, get like just
Speaker 2: break the arrow off in my heart.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pretty sad.
Speaker 2: Like, don't look away and disgust when your child is stuttering,
Speaker 2: you monster, Go look in the mirror and take a
Speaker 2: bamboo shoot and put it underneath your fingernail and think
Speaker 2: about what you've done.
Speaker 1: Another good one is and this feels like something that
Speaker 1: would be easy to do because it seems well intentioned
Speaker 1: to say, like, you know, slow down, son, take your time,
Speaker 1: taking your breath. They say to not do that, yeah,
Speaker 1: because you know, might make things worse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because what you're doing then is you're drawing attention
Speaker 2: to the idea that your child is not speaking correctly
Speaker 2: and rather than just apparently letting them communicate at their
Speaker 2: own pace. Right. Yeah, there's also seems to be a
Speaker 2: suggestion that the child has learned the child, your kid
Speaker 2: has learned to speak to stutter because they're trying to
Speaker 2: get too much out at once. Yeah, and they may
Speaker 2: have picked that up from you if you have like
Speaker 2: a rush rush rush pace in your household. Yeah, one
Speaker 2: of the things that they suggest is it just kind
Speaker 2: of slow things down at home. And in addition to
Speaker 2: like like schedule wise, and like just taking time and
Speaker 2: just like letting everybody breathe, maybe a little more than you.
Speaker 2: Guys are also speaking more slowly, not just to your kid,
Speaker 2: but also to other people when your kid's around. Yeah,
Speaker 2: speaking slowly, setting an example. It's called modeling your own
Speaker 2: speech so that your kid feels like they don't have
Speaker 2: to blurt everything out at once to get their point across.
Speaker 2: They they're going to be heard no matter how long
Speaker 2: it takes. You're going to sit there and just listen
Speaker 2: to them speak.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like really listen. Another thing that seems like
Speaker 1: a no brainer, but really just try and focus on
Speaker 1: what they're saying and not the fact that they're stuttering
Speaker 1: those words out. But you know, when your kid tells
Speaker 1: you a story about something that happened at school, right,
Speaker 1: don't concentrate or even bring attention to the fact that
Speaker 1: it's being said with a stutter, but just take take
Speaker 1: in their story and if it takes a little while longer,
Speaker 1: then just respond accordingly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in that same vein, like, don't tell your
Speaker 2: kid to stop and start over when they start stuttering. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like like they have to get the sentence just perfect
Speaker 2: or else you're not going to hear them out, and
Speaker 2: don't tell them to think before speaking. That's not helping
Speaker 2: anything at all.
Speaker 1: Be honest. Yeah, like, don't try and mask it and
Speaker 1: say that, well, you don't have a stutter, like this
Speaker 1: is just you know, you're just in a hurry or
Speaker 1: something like. They just say to be really honest and say,
Speaker 1: you know what, you have a stutter and it's a
Speaker 1: disfluence and it's nothing to worry about and if you'd like,
Speaker 1: maybe we can talk to someone that can do some
Speaker 1: exercises with you. And you know, just like all this
Speaker 1: sounds like no brainer, not being a monster parent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but again some of it does like telling your
Speaker 2: kid like, okay, slow down, take a breath. Now, what
Speaker 2: are you saying? Like you think you're helping your kid,
Speaker 2: you're not so so not all some of it is monstrosity.
Speaker 2: Others is just like this is this is what people
Speaker 2: would naturally do, but it's and it seems intuitive, but
Speaker 2: you're wrong. Your intuition is dead wrong. Just let your
Speaker 2: kid talk and listen to what they're saying, not how
Speaker 2: they're saying it. Right, and apparently this is this is
Speaker 2: a good These are good, This is good advice. Wow,
Speaker 2: it took me a second to get out. Thank you, though,
Speaker 2: Chuck for patiently hearing it. Then sure, this is good
Speaker 2: advice to helping your kid just naturally shed the stutter,
Speaker 2: the developmental stutter. We should say, all of this we've
Speaker 2: been talking about is is dealing with a developmental stutter,
Speaker 2: although a lot of it just applies to people with
Speaker 2: with adult stutters out in the real world as well.
Speaker 2: Like you can you can take just about all of
Speaker 2: this and apply it to a business conversation if you
Speaker 2: have a coworker who has a stutter, like, don't look
Speaker 2: away in disgust. There's there's good advice right there all
Speaker 2: throughout your life when you're when you're watching or listening
Speaker 2: to somebody with the stutter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean maybe don't do that at all, and like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, life advice.
Speaker 2: But it's it's a good point is if you're sitting
Speaker 2: there and you're and you don't look like you're hurrying
Speaker 2: somebody with the stutter along, You're just engage, You're you're
Speaker 2: into the conversation no matter how long it takes. I
Speaker 2: can't imagine how much that must help. And one thing
Speaker 2: that we didn't really, I think point out that that
Speaker 2: bears pointing out is that people who stutter do not
Speaker 2: necessarily stutter in this same frequency throughout like their day.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely situations that are that are going to
Speaker 2: make the stutter way more pronounced. They're almost exclusively associated
Speaker 2: with higher anxiety situations. I think the National Stuttering Association
Speaker 2: says that the number one situation where a stutter is
Speaker 2: going to be about as bad as it gets is
Speaker 2: during a job interview. And so employers, please don't think
Speaker 2: that this is how this person talks. This is probably
Speaker 2: as bad as their stutter gets. However, they're stuttering in
Speaker 2: the in the job interview. So if they're say at
Speaker 2: home and they're just talking to their wife or their
Speaker 2: kid or something, this stutter's probably going to be far
Speaker 2: less pronounced than it would be if they were having
Speaker 2: to give a speech at their friend's wedding, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I found that with this person, Emily, and
Speaker 1: I know that it's it can vary a lot within
Speaker 1: a conversation. It's a very severe stutter. And then they
Speaker 1: will say like a couple of sentences straight through with nothing,
Speaker 1: and then I think, oh man, ok, it catches me
Speaker 1: off guard because I'm so used to the stutter, and
Speaker 1: I think, well, you know, that's super interesting to me.
Speaker 1: You just like blurted out a couple of two or
Speaker 1: three long sentences with zero stutter or stammer on the
Speaker 1: same thing.
Speaker 2: I know, but they're fun to say together, aren't they
Speaker 2: They are?
Speaker 1: I don't know, just find it really fascinating. You know,
Speaker 1: speech pathology can come a long way. I know that
Speaker 1: there are Well, it's funny. I looked online about curing stuttering,
Speaker 1: and of course there is no like patented cure. But
Speaker 1: Tony Robbins after listening to our or recording our motivational
Speaker 1: speaker thing, I saw a video. I didn't watch it.
Speaker 1: I just saw the title. It said Tony Robbins cure's
Speaker 1: a man of a stutter in seven minutes.
Speaker 2: So I was like, oh, come on, Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 2: didn't see anything that said stutter stuttering cures. There's basically none.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did not look into I didn't have time
Speaker 1: to look into this new device though, did you.
Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, a little bit. It seems pretty untested as
Speaker 2: far as real world application goes, but it makes sense intuitively,
Speaker 2: and apparently it does help in a clinical setting.
Speaker 1: So basically it's like an ear like a hearing aid, right,
Speaker 1: but it changes the person who's speaking's voice and a
Speaker 1: little bit does it replay it? Yeah, out loud for everybody.
Speaker 2: No, just for the person in their ear right. Because
Speaker 2: the one of the ways that somebody who stutters will
Speaker 2: be able to talk perfectly well is speaking in unison
Speaker 2: or singing. Oh okay, so like you, you can be
Speaker 2: sitting there talking to somebody just one on one, and
Speaker 2: your stutter could be quite severe. But then if you
Speaker 2: and the person agree to sing together, you may not
Speaker 2: stutter at all the whole time you're singing. And I
Speaker 2: have no one has any idea why that's the case.
Speaker 2: They just know. And this device is based on that
Speaker 2: that when we're talking in unison, or someone who has
Speaker 2: a stutter's talking in unison with somebody else, their stutter
Speaker 2: tends to go away. So what this does is it
Speaker 2: creates an echo. There's a bit of a lag with
Speaker 2: their own voice, so they feel like they're talking in unice.
Speaker 1: With themselves, and.
Speaker 2: So it helps the stutter again, at least in a
Speaker 2: clinical setting. I don't know if it would just be
Speaker 2: too distracting in a conversation or what. But I got
Speaker 2: the impression that they haven't tested it fully or proven
Speaker 2: it fully outside of the lab.
Speaker 1: Well, the singing makes sense because remember mel Tillis, the
Speaker 1: name sounds familiar. He was a country singer who had
Speaker 1: a really pronounced stutter, kind of around like the fifties,
Speaker 1: sixties and seventies. Seventies is when he was biggest. But yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know he was on like Hehaw and stuff,
Speaker 1: randall aupry Bird and then has has had a tough
Speaker 1: stutter when he was talking to the audience and that's
Speaker 1: what he was known for. Oh yeah, yeah, it was
Speaker 1: like you know, obviously wouldn't act, but.
Speaker 2: It was his stick.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Speaking of so another famous stutter chuck, are we there?
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Porky Pig. Yeah yeah, so I was I
Speaker 2: was looking up Porky Pig, right, because you know, that's
Speaker 2: an unusual choice to have a cartoon character who stutters
Speaker 2: U And it turns out that Porky Pig has a
Speaker 2: stutter because the guy who originally did Porky Pig, Joe Doherty,
Speaker 2: had a stutter in real life. Oh really yeah pretty sweet? Huh?
Speaker 2: Pretty heartwarming? Well wait there's more. Yeah, he did Porky
Speaker 2: Pick for the first two years, and then they fired
Speaker 2: him because he kept missing the cues because of his stutter,
Speaker 2: and they brought in a guy who didn't have a
Speaker 2: starter to do Porky Pig from that point on.
Speaker 1: But he did it with a stutter, Yeah, because it
Speaker 1: was established right, Well, that's creddy and that's sad. That
Speaker 1: is sad. Yeah, except Porky Pig's trick was to go
Speaker 1: to a different word.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is a fairly common technique though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine. So yeah, like if you get hung
Speaker 1: up on something, just say something else that means the
Speaker 1: same thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one. Or I think people will say, oh,
Speaker 2: I can't remember and just act like they can't remember
Speaker 2: the word when they know full well what word they're
Speaker 2: going for. They just can't they can't say it, so
Speaker 2: they just pretend like they couldn't or they forgot what
Speaker 2: they were talking about.
Speaker 1: Should we name off some of these other famous stutters,
Speaker 1: because I think if you're an adult stutter, you probably
Speaker 1: know these people. Sure you may have looked it up
Speaker 1: to feel a kinship, but maybe if you're a little
Speaker 1: kid out there, it might make you feel better to
Speaker 1: know that Darth Vader himself, James Earl Jones was a stutter, yeah,
Speaker 1: big time. Emily Blunt, Yep, she's terrific. Samuel Jackson surprising
Speaker 1: right there. Yeah, because the F bombs flow from his mouth.
Speaker 1: He was born with that talent. Who else from pulp fiction,
Speaker 1: Harvey Kayitel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't see Harvey Kytel stuttering.
Speaker 1: No, And I guess all of these people just went
Speaker 1: through speech therapy. Huh.
Speaker 2: I would guess so, or else they all took.
Speaker 1: Mushrooms because it doesn't say whether or not they were
Speaker 1: like stuttered as a child or when they overcame it.
Speaker 1: But Nicole Kidman, Albert Einstein, Oh really, Carly Simon, and.
Speaker 2: You said Winston Churchill earlier too, he had a stutter
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bruce Willis.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kysing too. Huh. Shack I could see. I
Speaker 2: think I've actually seen Shack stutter before on TV.
Speaker 1: Really see Bill Walton, Tiger Woods, Charles Darwin, Jane Seymour,
Speaker 1: doctor Quinn herself. Yeah, Joe Biden, who will hopefully run
Speaker 1: for president, right, you became his stutter?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well all of them did, which is great. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, there are people out there who
Speaker 2: have accepted that they have a stutter. They probably spend
Speaker 2: a lot of time and money trying to get rid
Speaker 2: of it and it hasn't gone anywhere, so they've kind
Speaker 2: of embraced it. So I mean, if you've gotten rid
Speaker 2: of your stutter and you've overcome it, that's great. But
Speaker 2: if you've also embraced it, good for you as well.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, how about this one? You want to talk
Speaker 1: about overcoming a stutter Kendrick Lamar?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, wow.
Speaker 1: If you can overcome a stutter and then become Kendrick Lamar, right,
Speaker 1: then that should be a shining example people that you
Speaker 1: can do anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or if you embrace your stutter, good for you
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: Agreed, because you could be Mel Tillis, who was the
Speaker 1: Kendrick Lamar of country music, or Porky Pig, the Kendrick
Speaker 1: Lamar of cartoon.
Speaker 2: You got anything else about stuttering?
Speaker 1: I got nothing else. We'd love to hear from people, though, huh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Get in touch with us. And in
Speaker 2: the meantime, you can find more stuff about stuttering, including
Speaker 2: a lot of support and resources for parents all over
Speaker 2: the web, and there's things like say dot org and
Speaker 2: the National Stuttering Association and all sorts of great resources
Speaker 2: if you are looking for some information. And since I said, uh,
Speaker 2: it's time for the listener mail, all right, I'll.
Speaker 1: Call this coming to see you in Chicago, but by
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