WEBVTT - #503 Jason Flom and Barry Scheck with Barry Gibbs 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:05.800 You know, every episode of this show has been a 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.600 roller coaster ride and a powerful emotional experience for me, 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.240 none more so in the episode I recorded with Barry Gibbs, 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:20.680 a beautiful, wonderful, warm, teddy bear of a man who 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.919 was wrongfully convicted in one of the most egregious cases 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.040 that any of us have ever seen, and exonerated in 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.360 one of the most amazing twists of fate. You have 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.319 to listen to his episode to hear the whole thing. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.519 I can't even paraphrase it, but the sad news is 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.640 Barry died after battling an illness on March twenty third, 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:48.520 twenty eighteen. Barry, rest in peace, my friend. You're gone 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:57.600 but not forgotten. Now please listen to the incredible Barry Gibbs. 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:05.600 I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.240 I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:11.440 day of my high school year. I was going to 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:13.560 be a senior at twenty two, I was set to 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:17.240 start college. I woke up and my life was never 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:21.400 the same again. Cops came out with guns drawn, and 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.360 I never saw freedom ever since after that. It's like 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.760 roach Mo, Tom once you get in and I can't mount. 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.960 In nineteen eighty six, a woman was strangled and her 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.240 body was dumped from a car on the belt Parkway 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.200 in Brooklyn, New York City. In order to protect the 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.040 known mafia associate who was the real suspect in the case, 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:44.080 the detective Louis Eppalito co Where's two eyewitnesses into changing 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.440 their story and placing Barry Gibbs at the scene of 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:50.760 the crime. Based on this false eyewitness testimony, Barry Gibbs 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.600 was convicted and served almost two decades in prison before 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.320 he was exonerated. The guys broken. 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:05.000 I made a seventh Terry plot a life in Sherman's Wolfe, the. 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.720 Corrupt cop who was responsible for coercing these eyewitnesses, was 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.480 ultimately convicted of eight murders that he carried out for 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.400 the mafia. He's currently serving life in prison. 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:20.120 To say corrupt is the understatement of all time. Lewis 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.320 Epolito was working at this point in time for a 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:26.560 crime family in New York City. 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:42.080 This is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flamm, we have a 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.440 very special guest today, actually we have three very special 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.560 guests today. The number one is Barry Gibbs. Barry's an 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.280 exignery who served almost two decades in prison for a 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:56.919 murder he didn't commit, and his story will rock your world, 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.320 to say the least. And in addition to Havingry on 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.040 the show, we have another Barry. We have Barry times 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.160 two today. Barry Sheck, the co founder of the Innocence 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.240 Project and a personal hero of mine, is here. And 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:14.200 we also have Vanessa Popkins. Vanessa is the newly promoted 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:18.400 and anointed director of post conviction Litigation for the Innocence 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.440 Project and she's been a long time lawyer with the 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.240 innocentce Project, long serving lawyer with the Noconce Project. We're 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:26.800 thrilled to have both of you, all three of you 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.880 here on the show today, So welcome. So Barry Gibbs, 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.440 Let's start at the beginning, which is where did you 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:36.720 Where were you born? Let's start with that. Let's go 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:37.440 all the way back. 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.360 We can go all the ways back. I was born 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:48.400 in Brooklyn. I was raised in sheeps At Bay. I 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:53.600 worked in a post office. I came from a beautiful neighborhood, 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:59.760 had a beautiful life, beautiful wife, had a house, had 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.600 a family, had a car. Every two years had a 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:04.559 good job. 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.440 American dream pretty much right, I mean, until it wasn't. 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.520 So you served honorably served your country in a war 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:12.680 that we won't get into the politics of that war, 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.760 but the fact there's a crazy situation for any young 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:19.640 man to find himself in. Now you come back and. 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.880 I wind up, I wind up, I'm young, I get married. 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.920 I find a beautiful woman. All along sitting in an 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.920 office I was. I was showing intimidated by her beauty 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.640 that it took me a year and a half to 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:35.880 get up the courage to just ask her out for 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:36.800 a couple of coffee. 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:38.839 This sounds very romantic, by the way. I just wants 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.440 to know truth. I know, but I'm feeling a little misty. 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.000 It's like in the movies when you get that you know, 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.279 foggy thing and you go back in time. So you 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.320 finally got the courage up, you asked her coffee. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.719 I used to deliver a mail toward she'd sit in 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.560 that office on a dictive phone. I never saw a 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.120 woman type as quickly as she did, and I was amazed. 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.320 So you charmed her and you eventually married her. Right, 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.560 because otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it right now. 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.599 Yeah, she was. She was a gift from God, she 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:06.320 really was. 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:08.680 And you married the girl of your dreams. So that's again, 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:12.559 it sounds like an American American dream story up until 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:14.359 it's not. And I want to get into that because 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.640 we have we have Barry and Vanessa here, which is 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.400 really a treat for the show, and I want to 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.599 talk about your your your Kafka esque journey through the 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:29.200 criminal justice system, because yours, is saying to Barry before, 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:33.000 it's like the triple crown of malfeasance. Right, you had 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:39.039 jail house snitches, you have police miss and prosecutorial misconduct, 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.359 and then you have a situation where they either can't 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:43.880 find or won't or won't turn over the evidence that 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.839 could have exonerated you long before your two decades in prison, 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.360 and it was it was a life sentence. Is that right? Yes, 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.839 So so let's let's turn it over to uh to 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.000 the lawyers for a second. Here, When did you first 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.120 become aware? And can you give us a little background 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.080 on how this happened in the first place, because this 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:04.000 should never happen. 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.480 So basically, in the mid nineteen eighties, a woman from 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:11.039 Brooklyn was murdered She was an African American woman. She 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:13.960 was strangled and her body was disposed of on the 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.880 side of a road on the Belt Parkway, and there 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.720 were a couple of witnesses who actually saw there. It 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:25.920 was a white man who was dumping the body essentially, and. 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:26.200 So there are two witnesses. 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.240 There was two witnesses. One was a park police officer. 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.200 And the Belt Parkway is a major thoroughfare in Brooklyn 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.159 just for people who around the country who don't know 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:36.560 the geographics, so go ahead. 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.520 Right, And there was a park police officer who had 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.720 driven by and saw the person the perpetrator, getting out 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:48.600 of the car. And there was also a guy, Peter Mitchell, 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:51.800 a witness who was jogging in the area who also 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:57.320 witnessed kind of the same set of occurrences. And so 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:03.080 the victim had been strangled. She was later discovered to 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.040 have hairs on her body. And you know, there was 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.159 a lot of evidence later on that we could have 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:09.520 done DNA testing on if we would have found to 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:14.280 show who did this. But Barry, you know, there was 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:19.200 this detective Lewis Epilito who wasn't even on duty at 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.120 the time, you know, wasn't wasn't on shift, but ended 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.239 up showing up at the crime scene and basically took 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:26.880 charge of the investigation. 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.040 And why did he do that? I mean, that seems 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:30.239 very irregular, right. 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:34.840 Something's wrong with him, Something's wrong with the whole way 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.880 this case goes down. He sweeps in to take over 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.320 this case, right, and all of a sudden it's his case. 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.040 And he goes and finds Peter Mitchell and he. 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.320 Creates this Peter Witchell's the jogger. The jogger. 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:53.000 All of a sudden, this guy is identifying Barry. He 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:54.240 takes care of the whole thing. 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:56.680 And why did Barry even come? I mean, he wasn't 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:58.760 anywhere near the crime scene? How did his name even 0:07:58.800 --> 0:07:59.960 come into the picture? Here? 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.680 We we we now know, right, you see, at the 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:07.960 time that we're doing this case, we don't know exactly 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.200 why Epilito was doing all these things. And of course 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.680 there's a house snitch that emerges in all of this, 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:16.120 so it goes to Tarlie gets convicted. We don't have 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.280 the DNA evidence, and frankly, as you know, well Jason, 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.720 you know at this time with the Innocence project, if 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:26.360 we couldn't find the biological evidence to do a DNA test. 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:27.720 We had to close the case. 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.520 Right, because that was that was the mission of the charter, 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.080 basically the Innocent's Project. We work on DNA cases. Now, 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:35.000 of course this change is afoot, but that's beside the 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:35.640 point way, right. 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.439 So but we we even though we had pretty much 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.600 established that we couldn't find the hares and the clothing 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.360 or anything like this, we just couldn't close the case. 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.280 Which is odd, right because by definition, this is the 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.160 type of one way you go well of it that should. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:55.080 Have been closed. So what happened was what Barry is 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.120 getting emotional about is that we were essentially saying to him, 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.080 we're going to have to drop this case, right, but 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:01.600 we couldn't. 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:03.920 What you did, I'm going to tell you what you did. 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:05.520 You broke my heart? 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:10.280 You really did, you guys broke my heart. I made 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:17.199 a cemetery plot, a life of surance policy. 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.120 And then all of a sudden we wake up and 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.760 in the front page of all the newspapers in New 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:24.560 York City. 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.240 What year, what year? 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:27.800 What year was two thousand and four. 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.280 So this has been going on now for this has 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:31.880 probably been about for eleven years. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:33.880 Now, twelve years, yeah. 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:35.400 Two thousand and four you opened the newspaper. 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.040 Opened the newspaper, and there's a story that a former 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:43.480 New York City Police detective, Lewis Epalito, who was famous 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.480 in his time because he wrote a book called Mafia Cop, 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:51.040 where he described how his parents had been The father 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.719 had been involved in the organized crime, but he hadn't been, 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.000 and he was a great hero cop, uh, you know, 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:00.480 and got a lot of publicity. He was a cop 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.600 that arrested Barry and took over suddenly swoops in and 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.400 takes over this case. So Vanessa and I look at 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:11.480 this and we go, oh my god, it's we got 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.839 to call them up and say whatever. They had arrested 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:15.880 at Ballito. 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.360 Right, That's why the stories they had arrested. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.520 At Ballito and Kara Kappa, another detective with whom he worked, 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.880 because it was alleged that he had become involved with 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:28.679 the mafia. 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.280 I remember reading the story and he the. 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.640 Two of them had begun doing hits for a crime family, right, 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.640 and they literally were killing people one after another. 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:40.199 You know, this sounds like it's straight out of a 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.160 Hollywood movie. Rights. We have we have guys in blue 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.120 wearing badges doing hits for the Mafia in New York City. 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.600 It's all true, and it's crazier than that Chason because 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.840 Lewis Eppolito, the so called mafia cop, was in the 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:58.640 first scene right of Goodfellas, very first scene of Goodfellas. 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.559 Like art imitating life imitating art. Years before he was 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.480 exposed as being a hitman for the mafia and disgraced, 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:10.520 Louis Eppalito appeared on Sally Jesse Raptael, What. 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.240 Do you do now, Big lou Well. 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.600 I've acted in nine movies. I've been in Goodfellas, State 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.320 of Grace, Predator to I tried writing a screenplay. Gene 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.439 Hackman has been really great with me and Mikhail Ershnikov 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:25.880 and I did a movie with them called Company Business, 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.200 and I wrote a screenplay and it was bought by 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.280 New Line Cinema and I just finished the second screenplay 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.439 that it's better than policing getting shot out any day. 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:39.079 Yeah, as far back as I can remember, I always 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:40.559 wanted to be a gangster. 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:49.320 And Bewhile, if that's not ironic enough, he's also writing 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.440 a book about he's how he's not doing what he 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.280 is exactly is doing right, So it's like the whole 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.040 thing is a circle of madness. That's, you know, hard 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:57.520 to believe. 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.960 So we write into the US Office and we called 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.400 them and they say, would you please look into the 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.480 Barry Gibbs case because something's wrong with this case. We've 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.600 always thought that Barry was innocent, that he was framed, 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:16.600 and unbeknownst to us, and they say, yes, we're going 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:17.000 to do that. 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:17.760 Get ready for this. 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.120 By the way, unbeknownst to us, the day that they 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:26.559 arrested Epallito in his apartment in Las Vegas, right, they 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:33.000 found the original New York City Police Department file on 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:37.000 the on the Barry Gibbs case. I mean the original one. 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.280 One of the reasons that we couldn't find a lot 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.640 of things is that it's unprecedented. You know, he's a 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.440 copy retires, he goes to the police department and he 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.200 takes the original file. 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.840 Well maybe he too, I mean, is it your theory 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.920 that he took the file so that it would never 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.800 get discovered, and then ironically again he put it in 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:56.320 a place where it could get discovered. 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.480 A second to that, I was sitting in the car 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.680 with the DA agents. I don't remember their names. I'm 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.480 not giving you guys up and I said to them, 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.360 how many files did you find in the house? And 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:17.679 he said three? And I says, well, I'm on my 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:19.840 way down. What happened to the two water files? 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:20.160 You know what? 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:24.439 He said to me, don't worry about them, their career criminals. 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.240 I said to myself, you got that. I'm not going 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.480 to say nothing, but I really wanted to say something. 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.240 Why don't you do your job promptly? Well, they did 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:32.840 what I didn't. 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.800 Let's be let's let's be straight about this. So these 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.160 DEA agents and the US attorneys in the Eastern District, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:44.880 they went out and they started reinvestigating Barry's case. And 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:49.400 they went and they talked to Peter Mitchell, Right's the Jagger, 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.640 and he's living someplace in Queens and they walk in 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.400 the door and he said, I've been waiting, you know, 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:57.600 twenty years. 0:13:57.720 --> 0:13:59.280 I'm getting the jails right now. 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.880 For somebody to say this to me. And he bursts 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:07.240 into tears and he describes how Epillito threatened him. He himself, 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.679 Peter Mitchell had been an Army veteran, right he had 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:15.600 a felony conviction, and Epilitos was threatening him, you know, 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.600 both physically and to expose him and destroy him. And 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.880 he brought him into the precinct and he showed him 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.440 who Barry was. And then they held this ridiculous, bogus 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:31.000 lineup and you know, he identified Barry Gibbs. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:33.960 So, yeah, he was given basically no option. 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.560 Yeah, I mean it was a force. 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.280 So what about the other witness Barry? Who was the 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.480 park the park police officer he said, a park ranger or. 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.240 Something, officer Gentilly. He You know, the crazy thing about 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.600 him is that nobody, you know, he would have been 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.600 the most reliable witness, right, He's an officer, he's trained 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:56.520 to make identifications. Nobody ever asked him that we know of, 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.440 to look at Barry Gibbs and say is that the 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:03.040 person you saw? Because they didn't want to know. 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:05.200 When you go back and you look at this case, 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.280 this is one of the Yeah, I mean, this is 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:13.800 what makes Barry Gibbs, this case extraordinary in one respect 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:18.760 is that it was a completely corrupt cop. And to 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:23.359 say corrupt is the understatement of all time. Lewis Eppolito 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:27.400 was working at this point in time for a crime 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.840 family in New York City. He and Kara Kappa, I 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:35.000 think we're involved in the assassination of eleven people. There's 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:39.600 a terrific book written about Lewis Epolito case and it's 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.360 called The Good Rat by Jimmy Breslin, you know, perhaps 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:49.040 the greatest, you know, pulitzurprise winning columnist that we've ever 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.440 had in this town. And he talks about Barry's case. 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:56.000 But they were running around killing people, you know, and 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.640 the Lukesey crime family would say, well, why don't you 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:02.680 go kill Guido, and they killed the wrong Nicki Guido. 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:02.840 They did. 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:08.400 Nick They're all contract killings. And so what we have 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:13.800 been able to figure out through litigation after Barry was 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:18.880 uh exonerated, essentially through the work of these DEA agents 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.640 who went out and found Peter Mitchell and you know, 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.880 showed that the whole case was a frame up. We 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:29.520 now know that the day that the witnesses saw this 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.320 body of this poor woman being dumped on the belt 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:37.360 Parkway right that the description matched somebody that worked at 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.720 a chop shop in Brooklyn. 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.080 Who was known to the cops, who was known. 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:49.520 And Epolito mysteriously shows up the next day. The next 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:54.840 day we found out this guy who was suspected who 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.560 to meet the description, right, shows up at the police 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:02.280 precinct with his died because originally they described it as 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:04.200 somebody with salt and pepper hair. He shows up with 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:06.760 his hair dyed black and a lawyer to talk to. 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:11.040 Epolito appears about that, which appears in no police reports. 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:13.679 No, there's no reason to take a look at that. 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:14.119 I wouldn't. 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:18.199 But you know, when you look back at this, it's unbelievable. 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.040 So let's go back to the case. So nine years 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.480 after Barry's conviction, a Brooklyn judge ordered the state to 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.440 submit evidence from the case for DNA testing. And then 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.320 what happens, right, It would seem like at that point, Okay, 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:45.000 now we got a break. Right now, we're going to 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:47.320 get this guy out. Some of the evidence had apparently 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.399 been destroyed and other items couldn't be found. 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:53.639 Okay, that's their side of the case. But my side 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.600 the case is different from that version. 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:57.080 Right there, Okay, let's hear it. 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:04.359 Okay, when I was in jail at Riker's Island six 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:08.160 months later or whatever, I can't remember exactly how many 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:12.880 months later, the district attorney wanted me to give hair 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:17.600 samples again. My attorney came up to me, and I 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.240 said to him, I'm not giving it. And he says why. 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.640 He says, because I'm being framed. I'm not giving it. 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:30.000 He says, listen, Barry, he says, I'm there to represent you. Now, 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:34.720 he said, pay attorney, I'm there to represent you. He says. 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.160 I says, you're gonna be there to represent me when 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:42.439 they take these heirs and they're done together, Like, are 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.560 you gonna be physically right there? He said to me. No, 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:47.359 he says, I'm gonna be there when they take the 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.359 hair samples and they heat seal it and they're gonna 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.640 give the evidence to who epilto. 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.639 The chain of custody really fell off with Epilito himself 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.760 in terms of having handle the evidence, and it was 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:02.600 just am I. 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:04.800 A you know, And the funny thing that Barry Gibbs 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.480 is saying is that, you know, he doesn't even want 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.399 to give his hairs because he doesn't trust And you know, 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.199 from the lawyer's point of view, he's going, oh, I 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:18.159 got this Michugan client, this crazy client. It doesn't even 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:19.159 want to give up airs. 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.040 But one of the greatest frame ups in the history 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:22.760 of New York City. 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.240 And what's crazy is that you'd look at him and go, 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.640 you're you're convinced that you're going to be framed, and 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.320 you won't even give your hairs, and you're saying that 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:35.280 we can't trust the detective to even take them to 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.000 the crime lab and give it a straight up examination. 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.960 And it turns out everything he suspects is completely true. 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.520 It is a complete frame. The guy is working for 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:50.879 the mafia, He is assassinating people. He probably played around 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.480 with all of this evidence. We can't prove all of that, 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:55.040 but we proved the hell of a lot of it. 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.600 So for a postal worker for oppostal worker, Barry turns 0:19:57.640 --> 0:19:59.480 out to be a pretty good scientist, huh, I mean, 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.959 or at least a psychologist. Let me ask you this. Also, so, 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.879 the New York City crime laft has faced criticism for 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:09.480 its difficulty difficulty is a strange word, for its difficulty 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:12.120 handling on to put that in quotes and storing evidence. 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.160 In twenty thirteen, the New York City Medical Examiner's Office 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.600 announced that it had discovered more than fifty cases in 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.560 which the office failed to upload critical DNA evidence from 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.680 crime scenes to the state's DNA database, which prevented those 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.680 samples from being compared to genetic material from convicted offenders. 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.480 This discovery led to the firing of the office's deputy 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:32.840 director of quality assurance, which sounds kind of like a 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.159 fall guy to me. I mean, the deputy director of 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.359 quality assurance. That sounds like somebody who works at a 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:40.440 snack food company or something like that. You know, so 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:43.879 can we can you tell me more about that? Because 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.119 people like to think that these people are doing their jobs, right. 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:48.800 I think the public likes to think that when you have, 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.320 you know, a crime lab, that these people are on 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.119 is now, of course, after making a murderer and after 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.200 the different things that have come out recently, I think 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.600 that has generated so much attention that people probably have 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.560 a little more skeptical view. But even as a lay person, 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.280 before getting involved with Innis's project, I thought so too. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.360 I thought that these people do their jobs. These are 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:11.200 honest actors. 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:16.480 Right Number one, what Barry and Vanessa were describing about 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:20.720 the search for his evidence, right, It is true that 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.720 in the old days, at the time that Barry was convicted, 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.840 they had a terrible system for keeping track of the evidence. 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:33.040 It was a mess. And that's not unlike places all 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.120 across the country. It was a total mess, and they 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:41.359 did have fires and asbestos and floods, and they did 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:45.560 recently after Sandy, have a problem. But you know, having 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:51.240 said that, we did have a problem for years in 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:56.359 trying to get a fair search because the evidence custodians really, 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.360 you know, they were being deliberately indifferent to the need 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.159 to go look for evidence, even when people were asking, 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.320 go find my evidence. A DNA test could prove me innocent. 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:10.880 They really weren't trying hard. But now I do believe 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:15.200 that that part of the operation has been professionalized. They 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.280 have a limb system, you know, it's sort of like 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:22.679 a barcode system, laboratory information welcome to twenty sixteen. 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:26.280 They haven't got they haven't gone back completely, so there's 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:29.880 evidence from decades ago. You know, that's still a mass. 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.639