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Speaker 1: You know, every episode of this show has been a

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Speaker 1: roller coaster ride and a powerful emotional experience for me,

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Speaker 1: none more so in the episode I recorded with Barry Gibbs,

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Speaker 1: a beautiful, wonderful, warm, teddy bear of a man who

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Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted in one of the most egregious cases

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Speaker 1: that any of us have ever seen, and exonerated in

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Speaker 1: one of the most amazing twists of fate. You have

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Speaker 1: to listen to his episode to hear the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: I can't even paraphrase it, but the sad news is

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Speaker 1: Barry died after battling an illness on March twenty third,

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. Barry, rest in peace, my friend. You're gone

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Speaker 1: but not forgotten. Now please listen to the incredible Barry Gibbs.

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Speaker 2: I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life.

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Speaker 2: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first

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Speaker 2: day of my high school year. I was going to

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Speaker 2: be a senior at twenty two, I was set to

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Speaker 2: start college. I woke up and my life was never

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Speaker 2: the same again. Cops came out with guns drawn, and

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Speaker 2: I never saw freedom ever since after that. It's like

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Speaker 2: roach Mo, Tom once you get in and I can't mount.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty six, a woman was strangled and her

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Speaker 1: body was dumped from a car on the belt Parkway

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, New York City. In order to protect the

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Speaker 1: known mafia associate who was the real suspect in the case,

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Speaker 1: the detective Louis Eppalito co Where's two eyewitnesses into changing

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Speaker 1: their story and placing Barry Gibbs at the scene of

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Speaker 1: the crime. Based on this false eyewitness testimony, Barry Gibbs

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Speaker 1: was convicted and served almost two decades in prison before

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Speaker 1: he was exonerated. The guys broken.

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Speaker 2: I made a seventh Terry plot a life in Sherman's Wolfe, the.

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Speaker 1: Corrupt cop who was responsible for coercing these eyewitnesses, was

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Speaker 1: ultimately convicted of eight murders that he carried out for

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Speaker 1: the mafia. He's currently serving life in prison.

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Speaker 3: To say corrupt is the understatement of all time. Lewis

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Speaker 3: Epolito was working at this point in time for a

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Speaker 3: crime family in New York City.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flamm, we have a

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Speaker 1: very special guest today, actually we have three very special

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Speaker 1: guests today. The number one is Barry Gibbs. Barry's an

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Speaker 1: exignery who served almost two decades in prison for a

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Speaker 1: murder he didn't commit, and his story will rock your world,

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Speaker 1: to say the least. And in addition to Havingry on

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Speaker 1: the show, we have another Barry. We have Barry times

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Speaker 1: two today. Barry Sheck, the co founder of the Innocence

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Speaker 1: Project and a personal hero of mine, is here. And

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Speaker 1: we also have Vanessa Popkins. Vanessa is the newly promoted

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Speaker 1: and anointed director of post conviction Litigation for the Innocence

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Speaker 1: Project and she's been a long time lawyer with the

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Speaker 1: innocentce Project, long serving lawyer with the Noconce Project. We're

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Speaker 1: thrilled to have both of you, all three of you

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Speaker 1: here on the show today, So welcome. So Barry Gibbs,

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Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning, which is where did you

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Speaker 1: Where were you born? Let's start with that. Let's go

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Speaker 1: all the way back.

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Speaker 2: We can go all the ways back. I was born

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Speaker 2: in Brooklyn. I was raised in sheeps At Bay. I

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Speaker 2: worked in a post office. I came from a beautiful neighborhood,

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Speaker 2: had a beautiful life, beautiful wife, had a house, had

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Speaker 2: a family, had a car. Every two years had a

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Speaker 2: good job.

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Speaker 1: American dream pretty much right, I mean, until it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: So you served honorably served your country in a war

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Speaker 1: that we won't get into the politics of that war,

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Speaker 1: but the fact there's a crazy situation for any young

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Speaker 1: man to find himself in. Now you come back and.

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Speaker 2: I wind up, I wind up, I'm young, I get married.

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Speaker 2: I find a beautiful woman. All along sitting in an

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Speaker 2: office I was. I was showing intimidated by her beauty

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Speaker 2: that it took me a year and a half to

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Speaker 2: get up the courage to just ask her out for

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Speaker 2: a couple of coffee.

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Speaker 1: This sounds very romantic, by the way. I just wants

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Speaker 1: to know truth. I know, but I'm feeling a little misty.

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Speaker 1: It's like in the movies when you get that you know,

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Speaker 1: foggy thing and you go back in time. So you

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Speaker 1: finally got the courage up, you asked her coffee.

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Speaker 2: I used to deliver a mail toward she'd sit in

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Speaker 2: that office on a dictive phone. I never saw a

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Speaker 2: woman type as quickly as she did, and I was amazed.

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Speaker 1: So you charmed her and you eventually married her. Right,

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Speaker 1: because otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was. She was a gift from God, she

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Speaker 2: really was.

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Speaker 1: And you married the girl of your dreams. So that's again,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like an American American dream story up until

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Speaker 1: it's not. And I want to get into that because

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Speaker 1: we have we have Barry and Vanessa here, which is

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Speaker 1: really a treat for the show, and I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about your your your Kafka esque journey through the

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Speaker 1: criminal justice system, because yours, is saying to Barry before,

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Speaker 1: it's like the triple crown of malfeasance. Right, you had

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Speaker 1: jail house snitches, you have police miss and prosecutorial misconduct,

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Speaker 1: and then you have a situation where they either can't

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Speaker 1: find or won't or won't turn over the evidence that

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Speaker 1: could have exonerated you long before your two decades in prison,

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Speaker 1: and it was it was a life sentence. Is that right? Yes,

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Speaker 1: So so let's let's turn it over to uh to

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Speaker 1: the lawyers for a second. Here, When did you first

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Speaker 1: become aware? And can you give us a little background

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Speaker 1: on how this happened in the first place, because this

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Speaker 1: should never happen.

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Speaker 4: So basically, in the mid nineteen eighties, a woman from

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Speaker 4: Brooklyn was murdered She was an African American woman. She

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Speaker 4: was strangled and her body was disposed of on the

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Speaker 4: side of a road on the Belt Parkway, and there

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Speaker 4: were a couple of witnesses who actually saw there. It

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Speaker 4: was a white man who was dumping the body essentially, and.

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Speaker 1: So there are two witnesses.

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Speaker 4: There was two witnesses. One was a park police officer.

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Speaker 1: And the Belt Parkway is a major thoroughfare in Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: just for people who around the country who don't know

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Speaker 1: the geographics, so go ahead.

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Speaker 4: Right, And there was a park police officer who had

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Speaker 4: driven by and saw the person the perpetrator, getting out

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Speaker 4: of the car. And there was also a guy, Peter Mitchell,

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Speaker 4: a witness who was jogging in the area who also

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Speaker 4: witnessed kind of the same set of occurrences. And so

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Speaker 4: the victim had been strangled. She was later discovered to

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Speaker 4: have hairs on her body. And you know, there was

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Speaker 4: a lot of evidence later on that we could have

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Speaker 4: done DNA testing on if we would have found to

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Speaker 4: show who did this. But Barry, you know, there was

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Speaker 4: this detective Lewis Epilito who wasn't even on duty at

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Speaker 4: the time, you know, wasn't wasn't on shift, but ended

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Speaker 4: up showing up at the crime scene and basically took

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Speaker 4: charge of the investigation.

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Speaker 1: And why did he do that? I mean, that seems

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Speaker 1: very irregular, right.

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Speaker 3: Something's wrong with him, Something's wrong with the whole way

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Speaker 3: this case goes down. He sweeps in to take over

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Speaker 3: this case, right, and all of a sudden it's his case.

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Speaker 3: And he goes and finds Peter Mitchell and he.

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Speaker 1: Creates this Peter Witchell's the jogger. The jogger.

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Speaker 3: All of a sudden, this guy is identifying Barry. He

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Speaker 3: takes care of the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: And why did Barry even come? I mean, he wasn't

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Speaker 1: anywhere near the crime scene? How did his name even

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Speaker 1: come into the picture? Here?

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Speaker 3: We we we now know, right, you see, at the

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Speaker 3: time that we're doing this case, we don't know exactly

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Speaker 3: why Epilito was doing all these things. And of course

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Speaker 3: there's a house snitch that emerges in all of this,

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Speaker 3: so it goes to Tarlie gets convicted. We don't have

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Speaker 3: the DNA evidence, and frankly, as you know, well Jason,

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Speaker 3: you know at this time with the Innocence project, if

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Speaker 3: we couldn't find the biological evidence to do a DNA test.

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Speaker 3: We had to close the case.

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Speaker 1: Right, because that was that was the mission of the charter,

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Speaker 1: basically the Innocent's Project. We work on DNA cases. Now,

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Speaker 1: of course this change is afoot, but that's beside the

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Speaker 1: point way, right.

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Speaker 3: So but we we even though we had pretty much

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Speaker 3: established that we couldn't find the hares and the clothing

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Speaker 3: or anything like this, we just couldn't close the case.

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Speaker 1: Which is odd, right because by definition, this is the

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Speaker 1: type of one way you go well of it that should.

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Speaker 3: Have been closed. So what happened was what Barry is

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Speaker 3: getting emotional about is that we were essentially saying to him,

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Speaker 3: we're going to have to drop this case, right, but

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Speaker 3: we couldn't.

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Speaker 2: What you did, I'm going to tell you what you did.

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Speaker 1: You broke my heart?

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Speaker 2: You really did, you guys broke my heart. I made

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Speaker 2: a cemetery plot, a life of surance policy.

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Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden we wake up and

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Speaker 3: in the front page of all the newspapers in New

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Speaker 3: York City.

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Speaker 1: What year, what year?

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Speaker 4: What year was two thousand and four.

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Speaker 1: So this has been going on now for this has

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Speaker 1: probably been about for eleven years.

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Speaker 3: Now, twelve years, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Two thousand and four you opened the newspaper.

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Speaker 3: Opened the newspaper, and there's a story that a former

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Speaker 3: New York City Police detective, Lewis Epalito, who was famous

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Speaker 3: in his time because he wrote a book called Mafia Cop,

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Speaker 3: where he described how his parents had been The father

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Speaker 3: had been involved in the organized crime, but he hadn't been,

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Speaker 3: and he was a great hero cop, uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: and got a lot of publicity. He was a cop

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Speaker 3: that arrested Barry and took over suddenly swoops in and

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Speaker 3: takes over this case. So Vanessa and I look at

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Speaker 3: this and we go, oh my god, it's we got

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Speaker 3: to call them up and say whatever. They had arrested

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Speaker 3: at Ballito.

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Speaker 1: Right, That's why the stories they had arrested.

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Speaker 3: At Ballito and Kara Kappa, another detective with whom he worked,

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Speaker 3: because it was alleged that he had become involved with

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Speaker 3: the mafia.

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Speaker 1: I remember reading the story and he the.

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Speaker 3: Two of them had begun doing hits for a crime family, right,

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Speaker 3: and they literally were killing people one after another.

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Speaker 1: You know, this sounds like it's straight out of a

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Speaker 1: Hollywood movie. Rights. We have we have guys in blue

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Speaker 1: wearing badges doing hits for the Mafia in New York City.

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Speaker 3: It's all true, and it's crazier than that Chason because

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Speaker 3: Lewis Eppolito, the so called mafia cop, was in the

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Speaker 3: first scene right of Goodfellas, very first scene of Goodfellas.

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Speaker 1: Like art imitating life imitating art. Years before he was

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Speaker 1: exposed as being a hitman for the mafia and disgraced,

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Speaker 1: Louis Eppalito appeared on Sally Jesse Raptael, What.

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Speaker 3: Do you do now, Big lou Well.

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Speaker 5: I've acted in nine movies. I've been in Goodfellas, State

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Speaker 5: of Grace, Predator to I tried writing a screenplay. Gene

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Speaker 5: Hackman has been really great with me and Mikhail Ershnikov

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Speaker 5: and I did a movie with them called Company Business,

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Speaker 5: and I wrote a screenplay and it was bought by

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Speaker 5: New Line Cinema and I just finished the second screenplay

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Speaker 5: that it's better than policing getting shot out any day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, as far back as I can remember, I always

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Speaker 3: wanted to be a gangster.

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Speaker 1: And Bewhile, if that's not ironic enough, he's also writing

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Speaker 1: a book about he's how he's not doing what he

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Speaker 1: is exactly is doing right, So it's like the whole

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Speaker 1: thing is a circle of madness. That's, you know, hard

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Speaker 1: to believe.

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Speaker 3: So we write into the US Office and we called

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Speaker 3: them and they say, would you please look into the

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Speaker 3: Barry Gibbs case because something's wrong with this case. We've

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Speaker 3: always thought that Barry was innocent, that he was framed,

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Speaker 3: and unbeknownst to us, and they say, yes, we're going

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Speaker 3: to do that.

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Speaker 1: Get ready for this.

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Speaker 3: By the way, unbeknownst to us, the day that they

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Speaker 3: arrested Epallito in his apartment in Las Vegas, right, they

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Speaker 3: found the original New York City Police Department file on

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Speaker 3: the on the Barry Gibbs case. I mean the original one.

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Speaker 3: One of the reasons that we couldn't find a lot

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Speaker 3: of things is that it's unprecedented. You know, he's a

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Speaker 3: copy retires, he goes to the police department and he

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Speaker 3: takes the original file.

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Speaker 1: Well maybe he too, I mean, is it your theory

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Speaker 1: that he took the file so that it would never

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Speaker 1: get discovered, and then ironically again he put it in

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Speaker 1: a place where it could get discovered.

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Speaker 2: A second to that, I was sitting in the car

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Speaker 2: with the DA agents. I don't remember their names. I'm

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Speaker 2: not giving you guys up and I said to them,

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Speaker 2: how many files did you find in the house? And

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Speaker 2: he said three? And I says, well, I'm on my

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Speaker 2: way down. What happened to the two water files?

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Speaker 1: You know what?

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Speaker 2: He said to me, don't worry about them, their career criminals.

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Speaker 2: I said to myself, you got that. I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to say nothing, but I really wanted to say something.

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Speaker 2: Why don't you do your job promptly? Well, they did

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Speaker 2: what I didn't.

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Speaker 3: Let's be let's let's be straight about this. So these

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Speaker 3: DEA agents and the US attorneys in the Eastern District,

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Speaker 3: they went out and they started reinvestigating Barry's case. And

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Speaker 3: they went and they talked to Peter Mitchell, Right's the Jagger,

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Speaker 3: and he's living someplace in Queens and they walk in

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Speaker 3: the door and he said, I've been waiting, you know,

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Speaker 3: twenty years.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting the jails right now.

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Speaker 3: For somebody to say this to me. And he bursts

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Speaker 3: into tears and he describes how Epillito threatened him. He himself,

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Speaker 3: Peter Mitchell had been an Army veteran, right he had

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Speaker 3: a felony conviction, and Epilitos was threatening him, you know,

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Speaker 3: both physically and to expose him and destroy him. And

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Speaker 3: he brought him into the precinct and he showed him

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Speaker 3: who Barry was. And then they held this ridiculous, bogus

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Speaker 3: lineup and you know, he identified Barry Gibbs.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, he was given basically no option.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was a force.

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Speaker 1: So what about the other witness Barry? Who was the

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Speaker 1: park the park police officer he said, a park ranger or.

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Speaker 4: Something, officer Gentilly. He You know, the crazy thing about

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Speaker 4: him is that nobody, you know, he would have been

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Speaker 4: the most reliable witness, right, He's an officer, he's trained

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Speaker 4: to make identifications. Nobody ever asked him that we know of,

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Speaker 4: to look at Barry Gibbs and say is that the

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Speaker 4: person you saw? Because they didn't want to know.

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Speaker 3: When you go back and you look at this case,

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Speaker 3: this is one of the Yeah, I mean, this is

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Speaker 3: what makes Barry Gibbs, this case extraordinary in one respect

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Speaker 3: is that it was a completely corrupt cop. And to

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Speaker 3: say corrupt is the understatement of all time. Lewis Eppolito

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Speaker 3: was working at this point in time for a crime

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Speaker 3: family in New York City. He and Kara Kappa, I

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Speaker 3: think we're involved in the assassination of eleven people. There's

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Speaker 3: a terrific book written about Lewis Epolito case and it's

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Speaker 3: called The Good Rat by Jimmy Breslin, you know, perhaps

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Speaker 3: the greatest, you know, pulitzurprise winning columnist that we've ever

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Speaker 3: had in this town. And he talks about Barry's case.

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Speaker 3: But they were running around killing people, you know, and

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Speaker 3: the Lukesey crime family would say, well, why don't you

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Speaker 3: go kill Guido, and they killed the wrong Nicki Guido.

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Speaker 1: They did.

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Speaker 3: Nick They're all contract killings. And so what we have

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Speaker 3: been able to figure out through litigation after Barry was

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Speaker 3: uh exonerated, essentially through the work of these DEA agents

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Speaker 3: who went out and found Peter Mitchell and you know,

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Speaker 3: showed that the whole case was a frame up. We

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Speaker 3: now know that the day that the witnesses saw this

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Speaker 3: body of this poor woman being dumped on the belt

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Speaker 3: Parkway right that the description matched somebody that worked at

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Speaker 3: a chop shop in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 1: Who was known to the cops, who was known.

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Speaker 3: And Epolito mysteriously shows up the next day. The next

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Speaker 3: day we found out this guy who was suspected who

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Speaker 3: to meet the description, right, shows up at the police

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Speaker 3: precinct with his died because originally they described it as

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Speaker 3: somebody with salt and pepper hair. He shows up with

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Speaker 3: his hair dyed black and a lawyer to talk to.

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Speaker 3: Epolito appears about that, which appears in no police reports.

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Speaker 1: No, there's no reason to take a look at that.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't.

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Speaker 3: But you know, when you look back at this, it's unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to the case. So nine years

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Speaker 1: after Barry's conviction, a Brooklyn judge ordered the state to

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Speaker 1: submit evidence from the case for DNA testing. And then

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Speaker 1: what happens, right, It would seem like at that point, Okay,

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Speaker 1: now we got a break. Right now, we're going to

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Speaker 1: get this guy out. Some of the evidence had apparently

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Speaker 1: been destroyed and other items couldn't be found.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's their side of the case. But my side

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Speaker 2: the case is different from that version.

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Speaker 1: Right there, Okay, let's hear it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, when I was in jail at Riker's Island six

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Speaker 2: months later or whatever, I can't remember exactly how many

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Speaker 2: months later, the district attorney wanted me to give hair

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Speaker 2: samples again. My attorney came up to me, and I

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Speaker 2: said to him, I'm not giving it. And he says why.

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Speaker 2: He says, because I'm being framed. I'm not giving it.

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Speaker 2: He says, listen, Barry, he says, I'm there to represent you. Now,

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Speaker 2: he said, pay attorney, I'm there to represent you. He says.

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Speaker 2: I says, you're gonna be there to represent me when

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Speaker 2: they take these heirs and they're done together, Like, are

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Speaker 2: you gonna be physically right there? He said to me. No,

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Speaker 2: he says, I'm gonna be there when they take the

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Speaker 2: hair samples and they heat seal it and they're gonna

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Speaker 2: give the evidence to who epilto.

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Speaker 4: The chain of custody really fell off with Epilito himself

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Speaker 4: in terms of having handle the evidence, and it was

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Speaker 4: just am I.

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Speaker 3: A you know, And the funny thing that Barry Gibbs

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Speaker 3: is saying is that, you know, he doesn't even want

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Speaker 3: to give his hairs because he doesn't trust And you know,

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Speaker 3: from the lawyer's point of view, he's going, oh, I

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Speaker 3: got this Michugan client, this crazy client. It doesn't even

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Speaker 3: want to give up airs.

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Speaker 1: But one of the greatest frame ups in the history

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Speaker 1: of New York City.

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Speaker 3: And what's crazy is that you'd look at him and go,

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Speaker 3: you're you're convinced that you're going to be framed, and

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Speaker 3: you won't even give your hairs, and you're saying that

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Speaker 3: we can't trust the detective to even take them to

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Speaker 3: the crime lab and give it a straight up examination.

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Speaker 3: And it turns out everything he suspects is completely true.

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Speaker 3: It is a complete frame. The guy is working for

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Speaker 3: the mafia, He is assassinating people. He probably played around

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Speaker 3: with all of this evidence. We can't prove all of that,

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Speaker 3: but we proved the hell of a lot of it.

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Speaker 1: So for a postal worker for oppostal worker, Barry turns

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Speaker 1: out to be a pretty good scientist, huh, I mean,

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Speaker 1: or at least a psychologist. Let me ask you this. Also, so,

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Speaker 1: the New York City crime laft has faced criticism for

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Speaker 1: its difficulty difficulty is a strange word, for its difficulty

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Speaker 1: handling on to put that in quotes and storing evidence.

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Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, the New York City Medical Examiner's Office

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Speaker 1: announced that it had discovered more than fifty cases in

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Speaker 1: which the office failed to upload critical DNA evidence from

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Speaker 1: crime scenes to the state's DNA database, which prevented those

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Speaker 1: samples from being compared to genetic material from convicted offenders.

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Speaker 1: This discovery led to the firing of the office's deputy

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Speaker 1: director of quality assurance, which sounds kind of like a

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Speaker 1: fall guy to me. I mean, the deputy director of

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Speaker 1: quality assurance. That sounds like somebody who works at a

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Speaker 1: snack food company or something like that. You know, so

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Speaker 1: can we can you tell me more about that? Because

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Speaker 1: people like to think that these people are doing their jobs, right.

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Speaker 1: I think the public likes to think that when you have,

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Speaker 1: you know, a crime lab, that these people are on

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Speaker 1: is now, of course, after making a murderer and after

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Speaker 1: the different things that have come out recently, I think

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Speaker 1: that has generated so much attention that people probably have

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Speaker 1: a little more skeptical view. But even as a lay person,

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Speaker 1: before getting involved with Innis's project, I thought so too.

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Speaker 1: I thought that these people do their jobs. These are

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Speaker 1: honest actors.

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Speaker 3: Right Number one, what Barry and Vanessa were describing about

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Speaker 3: the search for his evidence, right, It is true that

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Speaker 3: in the old days, at the time that Barry was convicted,

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Speaker 3: they had a terrible system for keeping track of the evidence.

386
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Speaker 3: It was a mess. And that's not unlike places all

387
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Speaker 3: across the country. It was a total mess, and they

388
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 3: did have fires and asbestos and floods, and they did

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Speaker 3: recently after Sandy, have a problem. But you know, having

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Speaker 3: said that, we did have a problem for years in

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Speaker 3: trying to get a fair search because the evidence custodians really,

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Speaker 3: you know, they were being deliberately indifferent to the need

393
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Speaker 3: to go look for evidence, even when people were asking,

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Speaker 3: go find my evidence. A DNA test could prove me innocent.

395
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Speaker 3: They really weren't trying hard. But now I do believe

396
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Speaker 3: that that part of the operation has been professionalized. They

397
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Speaker 3: have a limb system, you know, it's sort of like

398
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Speaker 3: a barcode system, laboratory information welcome to twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 4: They haven't got they haven't gone back completely, so there's

400
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Speaker 4: evidence from decades ago. You know, that's still a mass.

401
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 4: So it's still it's still incredibly hard for innocent people

402
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 4: today in New York City to get access to evidence

403
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 4: to prove their innocence. They didn't go back and cleaned up.

404
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Speaker 1: And it's odd because married and I we talked about

405
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Speaker 1: this before. You know, our clients. I sometimes think of

406
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Speaker 1: them and I hope you think this the right way,

407
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 1: as some of the luckiest of the unluckiest people on earth, right,

408
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: because you can't be unluckier than to have it's tragic

409
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: and an unluckiest there's an understatement than to have yourself found,

410
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Speaker 1: find yourself in a situation where you wrongfully convict and

411
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Speaker 1: then you know there's we know that there's you know,

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Speaker 1: tens of thousands maybe more people in prison who are innocent,

413
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Speaker 1: and then for them to be fortunate enough to get

414
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Speaker 1: the innocence part, to have the Innostance Project take their case,

415
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Speaker 1: and then to have the evidence found as it was

416
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: in Barrie's case, is really something that could only be

417
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Speaker 1: described as, you know, half a so sort of like

418
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Speaker 1: a miracle.

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Speaker 2: We're blessed, but we've touched. I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 2: You kind of surrendered to everything and anything to be

421
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Speaker 2: at the place, oh man, because whatever it is, it's.

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Speaker 1: It's unbelievable in order to move on with your life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did angels as angels you don't want to

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Speaker 2: believe it, there's angel.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the misconduct because, according to

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Speaker 1: a study done by the Endsis Project of Minnesota, official

427
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: misconduct meaning police or prosecutorial misconduct, was a contributing factor

428
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: in forty six percent of all DNA exonerations on records

429
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Speaker 1: since nineteen eighty nine. Police suppressed evidence that might support

430
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Speaker 1: a defend its innocence in over one third of the

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Speaker 1: first seventy four exoneration cases. So that's one group that

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Speaker 1: we studied. And nine percent of exoneration cases involved allegations

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Speaker 1: of police coercialing witnesses into testifying, as was allegedly the

434
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: case in your trial. Well we know it was the

435
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: case in your trial. Bury. So Barry, I know you

436
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: and I talk about this a lot, and Vanessa I

437
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 1: love to hear what you have to say about it.

438
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: You know, the prosecutor of misconduct is this? I mean,

439
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: is it just blind ambition that drives these prosecutors? And

440
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: how is it? Like it always blows my mind that

441
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: a prosecutor can be so morally bankrupt that they can

442
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: be and ethically that they can be comfortable and sleep

443
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: well at night while deliberately knowingly prosecuting and convicting and

444
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: sometimes sentencing to death the person they know to be innocent.

445
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: But then the other problem.

446
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 3: Is but that's see, that's where I would take some issue, right,

447
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 3: and that is that I think much of it. The

448
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 3: misconduct is something that has been termed noble cause corruption,

449
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 3: and that because they actually believe that they're prosecuting a

450
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 3: guilty person, and then when the exculpatory evidence seems to

451
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 3: pop up right, left and right, because it turns out

452
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 3: they're actually prosecuting an innocent person, unbeknownst to them, it

453
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 3: gets hidden. And that's why it's so important for lawyers

454
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: to play by the rules, and that we're talking about

455
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 3: prosecutors playing by the rules that even if you think

456
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 3: you've got a guilty guy who committed a horrible crime,

457
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 3: you still have to play by the rules of our

458
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: system and disclose exculpatory evidence and not push witnesses beyond

459
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 3: what they really are really saw or heard or want

460
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 3: to say. That you have to somehow control, you know,

461
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 3: the kinds.

462
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: Of impulses, right impulses.

463
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: To win that you know are so prevalent in the system.

464
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 3: That's on the one hand, on the other hand, you

465
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: need strong defense. You need lawyers that are educated, that

466
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: are well funded, you know that are going to do

467
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 3: the job, because unless the defense plays by the rules

468
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 3: and does its job and exposes the problems in the case,

469
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 3: the system implodes.

470
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: Well you have, and you have the perfect storm there, right,

471
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: you have over ambitious prosecutors who become blinded by by

472
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: their belief in the noble cause what do you call it,

473
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: noble cause corruption or and or their own ambition. And

474
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: then you have a public defense who may be not

475
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: up to the task, they may not be qualified, or

476
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: they may just be overworked, overwhelmed. Yeah, because some of

477
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: them are some of them are dealing with a hundred

478
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: or more cases at a time, right, so they can't

479
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: possibly devote the type of time that they would need

480
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: to do to mount a robust defense. But the other

481
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: thing that always, you know, boggles my mind is that

482
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: as if a prosecutor does let's let's assume the worst

483
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: in this case. And we know there are those cases

484
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: right where prosecutors are just like, we got a guy,

485
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: we're just gonna nail them, We're gonna get it off

486
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: our desk, we're gonna close this case, and we're gonna

487
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: move on. We see that, and it's and and of

488
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: course it happens, and sometimes it's noble colast corruption. Sometimes

489
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: it's that. But in those cases, what I can't understand

490
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: is how they could well, well, what we know is

491
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: that when you convict the wrong guy, by definition, you

492
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: stop looking for the right guy, right. And so if

493
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: a prosecutor is motivated but nothing other than selfish interest,

494
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: especially in a small community, you got to do the

495
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: math and say, well, look, if the right guy's still

496
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: out there, and he's going to go almost invariably or

497
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 1: inevitably and go and commit more terrible crimes, it could

498
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: happen to your own family or somebody you know or

499
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: somebody you love. As a prospect of talking about right,

500
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: So wouldn't you think that as a public service, if

501
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: nothing else motivated them to do the right thing, that

502
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: they would want to get the real perpetrator off the street.

503
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: And of course we know that in many of our cases,

504
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: I don't know the exact percentage when we've exonerate did

505
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 1: as a guy, we find out that the guilty guy

506
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: has actually gone and committed terrible crimes against people who

507
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: never needed to be hurt or killed in the first place.

508
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: Among the DNA exonerations, close to half involve cases where

509
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: we've been able to identify the person who really committed

510
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 3: the crime.

511
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 4: But in a lot of cases too, it's just, you know,

512
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 4: there really aren't incentives. There need to be more incentives

513
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 4: on prosecutors, you know, taking on if they get a

514
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 4: case that's brought to them by the police and it

515
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 4: doesn't seem right or they're getting you know, some exculpatory

516
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 4: information to reinvest instigated and not just to see their

517
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 4: job is to go forward with the case that the

518
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 4: police brought them and to prosecute it. And you know

519
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 4: right now is the incentive is to win, not necessarily

520
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 4: to reevaluate the case, you know, built into the prosecutor's

521
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 4: offices and just in terms of you know, how they're evaluated,

522
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 4: what's considered to be a successful prosecutor. And in working

523
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 4: with some of the conviction integrity units where you know,

524
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 4: prosecutor's offices are going back and looking at the cases themselves.

525
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 4: You know, we've heard some of from some of the

526
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 4: leaders you know in this area that you know, when

527
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 4: you're a prosecutor, you completely dehumanize the person who's accused.

528
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 4: You know, that's how you do your job. And so

529
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 4: it also I think takes a you know, we need

530
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 4: a reevaluation in our system. We don't treat people who

531
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 4: are coming through the criminal justice system with any sense

532
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 4: of humanity and that allows prosecutors to kind of put

533
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,479
Speaker 4: blinders on, and you know, it's not somebody that they

534
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 4: can relate to. You're not seeing what the devastation that's

535
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 4: happening to the individual to or family. You know, that

536
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 4: is completely missing for their people.

537
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we lose track of that. They're

538
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:12,479
Speaker 1: they're not They're not just subjects or people who are

539
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: accused of something or numbers or whatever. They're actual people.

540
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: And we see that over and over again. So the

541
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: conviction review units, this is a relatively new things. It's

542
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: sort of what I think for about five to ten

543
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: years now, right.

544
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,959
Speaker 3: Well, it really started in earnest in two thousand and

545
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 3: seven in Dallas, Texas, when an African American defense attorney

546
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 3: at the age of in his thirties was elected District

547
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 3: Attorney of Dallas.

548
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: Pretty unlikely scenario all right round, and.

549
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 3: You know it was kind of a fluke or unexpected

550
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 3: and he came into office, Craig Watkins, and among the

551
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 3: first things that he did is that he created this

552
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 3: conviction integrity unit. The Innocence Project actually went to a

553
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: foundation that got him put up half the money because

554
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 3: it was a matching thing of the Dallas City Council

555
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 3: and this foundation, the Jet Foundation, and he put in

556
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 3: charge of the conviction Integrity unit a guy named Mike

557
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 3: Ware who came from an innocence organization in Lubbock, Texas.

558
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 3: So the Innocence Project of Texas, working with our Innocence

559
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: Project based in New York, started working with the Dallas

560
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: District Attorney's Office and their conviction Integrity Unit and reviewed

561
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: all the cases where they had been resisting requests for

562
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 3: DNA testing and reviewed them all. I mean we literally

563
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 3: got the entire prosecutor file, looked at it, reviewed the

564
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 3: case sometimes when there was no DNA evidence. Although in Dallas,

565
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 3: as opposed to New York, they were able to find it.

566
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: That's why there's more exonerations in Dallas than in most states.

567
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 3: If we had been able to find the evidence in

568
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: New York the way we've discussed before and when we

569
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 3: were searching for it in Barry Gibbs's case, if we

570
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 3: can find more of it, New York would have hundreds,

571
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 3: hundreds of exonerations. I think any firm minded person would agree.

572
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 3: We just couldn't find the evidence of so many.

573
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: Dallas go from the county with the highest execution rate

574
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: to the county with the highest exoneration rate just about yeah,

575
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: which is an incredible Let's think about that for a second, right,

576
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: and what that conviction review unit has meant to these

577
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 1: people who were some of them would have been executed there.

578
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: Could you imagine on death row?

579
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: No, you can't imagine it. No one else anyone can

580
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: imagine it. Maybe maybe you can imagine, right, but no

581
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: one else that hasn't been there can imagine. And that's

582
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we do the work that

583
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: we do. So these conviction review units, I believe there's

584
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: not twenty four of them around the country, right, Well,

585
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: some of them are affected summer.

586
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 3: Not some some are for real and some aren't. But

587
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 3: some are for show, right, some are for show. But

588
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 3: one of the uh telltale signs is will they bring

589
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 3: somebody in to that conviction integrity unit or conviction review

590
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 3: unit who has a background as a defense layer, because

591
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 3: the cognitive bias is very, very hard. I mean, you know,

592
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 3: I do not believe that there are you know, most prosecutors.

593
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 3: I think it's a rare, rare exception, you know, actually

594
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 3: get up in the morning and say I'm not going

595
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 3: to convict an innocent person. I don't you know, I

596
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: don't think that really happens. But I think what does

597
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 3: happen is, you know, you get what they call hard charging,

598
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 3: people who lose track of playing by the rules or

599
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 3: the humanity of the defendants, or the gravity of their responsibilities.

600
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: That can happen. And it's a question of you know,

601
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 3: cognitive bias. Right, you have to change the whole orientation

602
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 3: of how prosecutors look at their job. And by the way,

603
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 3: you know, overwhelmed institutional defenders. Right, you know, you have

604
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 3: so many cases you begin to look at them and go, well,

605
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 3: you know, I got to get through my docket, right,

606
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: and every case looks the same, you know, and you

607
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: don't put in the effort because you.

608
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: Can't and you don't have the money to hire the

609
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: type of people that you would need to go and

610
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: prove you as whereas the government can parade out a

611
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: forensic thing or sign as we saw it again and

612
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: making a murderer. I just had two more questions I

613
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you one, you know, back to the prosecutors.

614
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: So we need to have, as Vanessa was saying, a

615
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: higher standard or a better way of evaluating prosecutors so

616
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: that they are more driven to achieve results that are

617
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: based in fact, let's just call it that as opposed

618
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: to achieve achieving convictions, to achieve justice as opposed to convictions.

619
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: But we also need, in my view, we need to

620
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: have a much stronger system of prosecuting prosecutor holy prosecutors

621
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: accountable in this country. As far as I know, you know,

622
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: we've had with all the prosecutorialist conduct we've seen throughout

623
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: the decades, there's only really been two cases of any

624
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: prosecutors being held accountable in a way that winds that

625
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: lands them up in jail. Barry, can you just speak

626
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: for a second about the prosecutorial misconduct and how they

627
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: can be held a contable. What chine of changes have

628
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: to be made for these guys to be thrown out

629
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: or thrown in jail.

630
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 3: Well, there's some simple things that might be done. One

631
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 3: is that the Justice Department could bring prosecutions when we

632
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 3: find out years later that a prosecutor engaged in deliberate

633
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 3: misconduct that led to the conviction of an innocent person

634
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 3: intentionally deprived them of their civil rights. The problem that

635
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 3: we've had in the past is when we go to

636
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 3: the Department of Justice and say, look, we have DNA evidence,

637
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: We have all kinds of evidence that showed that somebody

638
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 3: was deliberately framed. This prosecutor should be prosecuted. They say

639
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 3: to us, Look, the statute of limitations under federal law

640
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 3: is five years, and it's very hard to conjure an

641
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 3: ongoing conspiracy to conceal it in most of these cases,

642
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 3: so there would be no jurisdiction for the federal government

643
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 3: to do that. It's possible to amend the laws, so

644
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 3: I think that might make a big difference. The other

645
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 3: aspect is that there has to be a concerted effort

646
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 3: to hold lawyers to their ethical responsibilities. One of the

647
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 3: things we found is that even in bar discipline, there

648
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: are statual limitations problems, and the bar discipline system does

649
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 3: not take seriously those prosecutors who break the rules, and frankly,

650
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 3: the defense layers who simply you know, have given up

651
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 3: and are just collecting checks and are not providing effective

652
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 3: assistance of counsel. And so one of the things we

653
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 3: have to do is change that system so that people

654
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 3: take that seriously. They can lose their licenses, they can

655
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 3: actually be prosecuted in the most egregious of cases. And

656
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 3: if that happens, I think that you know, you will

657
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 3: begin to see change. And we have we can't talk

658
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: past each other, and we can't say, you know, demonize.

659
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 3: You know, it's not all prosecutors that you know are

660
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 3: engaged in this kind of conduct.

661
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: Far from it.

662
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: No, there's a lot of good guys out there we know,

663
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: and I've always admired that the fact that you managed

664
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: to keep your sanity through all the things that you've

665
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: gone through with these crazy cases and the people you've

666
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: had to deal with. So before we wrap up, Barry,

667
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,439
Speaker 1: what can you share with us? You served nineteen years

668
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: in prison for something you didn't do. Your presence always

669
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: lights up a room, you know. I know that when

670
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: you all can't see him through the radio, but when

671
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: you're at the Ennocence Project dinner, I know I always

672
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: look forward to seeing you. He's he Barry is a guy.

673
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: He's I don't even know how to describe him, but

674
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: he's just larger than life character. Who is you know

675
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: who really drives that? It really motivates I still want

676
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: to do more. You know, when we meet somebody like

677
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: you who's just got an incredible spirit, and uh, you

678
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: know who has overcome so much and been and really

679
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: served the country honorably and done so much. You know good,

680
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: it's it's a fantastic guy.

681
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: I suffer to this day, you know, because you took

682
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: me out of a beautiful home. You threw me into

683
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: the military. I did a good life for a few years,

684
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: had a beautiful life, and this happens to me and

685
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 2: you throw me in jail. Do you really expect me

686
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: to feel like other people? I doubt it. I'll never

687
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: feel that way. You know, I've been through therapy. I've

688
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: you know I've I've been through a lot just to survive.

689
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I was in the hospital, I was messed up.

690
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 2: I thought I was gonna die. I'm here, I've been saved.

691
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: I don't know why I got angels around me. If

692
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 2: I need a Brockram spot it stay up for me.

693
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know what it is. You know

694
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: what I'm saying. And those are my angels. Those are

695
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: my angels that are around me. But the Innocence Project,

696
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 2: to me, is more than just a family. There are hearts,

697
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: you know, there were hearts.

698
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

699
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

700
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

701
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

702
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

703
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

704
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

705
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

706
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

707
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Podcast.

708
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

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00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one