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Speaker 1: Diversion audio.

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Speaker 2: A note this episode contains mature content and descriptions of

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Speaker 2: violence that may be disturbing for some listeners. Please take

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Speaker 2: care and listening. Today's episode is part two of our

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Speaker 2: two part series about Sarah Jane Moore, the housewife who

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Speaker 2: shocked the world when she tried to kill its most

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Speaker 2: powerful leader. If you missed part one, I highly recommend

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Speaker 2: that you pause me here, listen to that episode, and

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Speaker 2: then come back once you're caught up. Trust me, that

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Speaker 2: backstory is going to make what happens in this episode

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Speaker 2: even more fascinating. And be sure to stick around after

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Speaker 2: our main story, because I'm interviewing Jerry Spieler, an incredible

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Speaker 2: journalist who corresponded with Sarah Jane Moore for decades after

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Speaker 2: Sarah Jane tried to shoot President Ford. Jerry got to

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Speaker 2: know Sarah Jane better than many members of Sarah Jane's

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Speaker 2: own family, and she's got tons of incredible stories to

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Speaker 2: share that we just couldn't fit into our episodes, So

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Speaker 2: definitely don't miss that. It's spring of nineteen seventy four

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Speaker 2: and Sarah Jane Moore is standing on a quiet street

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Speaker 2: corner in San Francisco's upscale Pacific Heights neighborhood. She squints

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Speaker 2: to catch the license plate number of a green Toyota

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Speaker 2: that passes by. Nope, not that one. A few days ago,

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Speaker 2: Sarah Jane walked out of her apartment when a man

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Speaker 2: she'd never seen before approached her. He said his name

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Speaker 2: was Charles Bates, and he said he'd like to take

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Speaker 2: a meeting with her. What's this about, she asked. He

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Speaker 2: flashed her his FBI badge mates told her the agency

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Speaker 2: was working on a project and needed her help. He

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Speaker 2: said he'd be happy to share more details, but not here.

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Speaker 2: Could she meet him in a more secure location in

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Speaker 2: a few days. Over the last two years, Sarah Jane

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Speaker 2: transformed from a sheltered suburban housewife to full fledged anti

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Speaker 2: government activist embedded into San Francisco's radical underground. Her dedication

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Speaker 2: to the activist group called People in Need or PEN

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Speaker 2: became her anchor, her source of pride, and her identity.

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Speaker 2: Sarah Jane is pretty sure her activist work is the

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Speaker 2: reason for the FBI's interest in her, but she's no leader.

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Speaker 2: She's still learning the ropes. How had they noticed her?

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Speaker 2: And what could they want from the curb on the

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Speaker 2: hill where she's standing, Sarah Jane can see another green

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Speaker 2: sedan pulling towards her. She recognizes the driver, Charles Bates,

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Speaker 2: the agent who approached her outside her apartment. There's another

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Speaker 2: man in the car with him, and when they pull

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Speaker 2: up alongside Sarah Jane, they tell her to hop in back.

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Speaker 2: The second man introduces himself as Bert Worthington. He tells

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Speaker 2: her he and Bates are gathering information on certain members

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Speaker 2: of San Francisco's activist groups and they've been observing Sarah

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Speaker 2: Jane for a while. They've seen the way she has

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Speaker 2: so quickly made space for herself inside some of these groups,

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Speaker 2: and they want her to learn everything she can about

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Speaker 2: one of the leaders of the PEN program and then

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Speaker 2: share it with them. Look, we need your help here,

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Speaker 2: Worthington said, these are dangerous people. They are out to

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Speaker 2: destroy the country. Many of them are dupes of foreign

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Speaker 2: governments of the KGB. Bates explains what being an FBI

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Speaker 2: informant will entail. She needed to continue attending meetings and

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Speaker 2: take diligent notes. They want any details she can give

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Speaker 2: them about the group leaders, personal lives and connections outside

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Speaker 2: the activist community. They want Sarah Jane to write up

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Speaker 2: regular reports, sign them with a code name, and then

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Speaker 2: deliver them to a po box where an agent will

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Speaker 2: pick them up. They want her to call them at

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Speaker 2: least once a week from a payphone for updates, and

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Speaker 2: they will compensate her for her time. Sarah Jane pauses

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Speaker 2: for a moment. His whole thing was like something out

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Speaker 2: of a spy novel. She asked the agents the only

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Speaker 2: question she can think of, how should I behave? Just

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Speaker 2: be yourself, they said. What the agents didn't know was

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Speaker 2: that who Sarah Jane was was anyone's guest. Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the greatest true crime stories ever told. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode, we're calling The Housewife who Tried to Kill

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Speaker 2: the President Part two. It's the final episode of our

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Speaker 2: two part series about the unlikely woman who wanted to

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Speaker 2: kill former President Gerald Ford and the bizarre life she led,

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Speaker 2: which the headlines never got quite right. In our last episode,

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Speaker 2: we left Sarah Jane Moore with a thirty eight revolver

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Speaker 2: in her hands, just moments after she fired a bullet

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Speaker 2: at President Gerald Ford outside of an event in San Francisco,

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Speaker 2: a bystander wrestled Sarah Jane to the ground, and police

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Speaker 2: took her into custody shortly after. Sarah Jane may have

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Speaker 2: looked matronly and unassuming, but, as we learned last episode,

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Speaker 2: President Ford was just the last in a string of

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Speaker 2: people she had victimized, starting with the members of her

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Speaker 2: own family. As a kid, she was a social outcast

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Speaker 2: with an abrasive personality, and soon after leaving home, she

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Speaker 2: began a pattern of jumping from career to career, relationship

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Speaker 2: to relationship, in city to city. At one time, she

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Speaker 2: even abandoned four of her children and completely skipped town.

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Speaker 2: In this episode, we'll get to see how Sarah Jane

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Speaker 2: responds under the microscope of police custody and find out

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Speaker 2: what psychologists have to say about her bizarre detachment and

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Speaker 2: manipulative behavior. But first, I'm going to back up a

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Speaker 2: little bit to where we began this episode, in the

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Speaker 2: back of that green sedan, where Sarah Jane got her

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Speaker 2: first lesson in how to be a spy.

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Speaker 3: Now you might be.

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Speaker 2: Thinking, wait, I thought Sarah Jane was all in on

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Speaker 2: this activism thing. It seemed like she had finally found

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Speaker 2: her purpose after so many failed relationships and career attempts.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't this radical underground scene her new calling. What on

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Speaker 2: earth could have motivated her to start spying on this

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Speaker 2: community that she cared about so much. Let me be

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Speaker 2: honest with you here for a second. The most frustrating

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Speaker 2: thing about telling Sarah Jane's story is that her motives

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Speaker 2: are so unclear. She's constantly bouncing back and forth, jumping

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Speaker 2: from one team to the other. As a storyteller, that's

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Speaker 2: really hard to explain, and it can make for a

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Speaker 2: confusing story. I have a theory that that's one reason

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Speaker 2: more books and TV specials about Sarah Jane don't exist.

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Speaker 2: She's a frustrating character to follow. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 2: I think Sarah Jane's constant flip flopping tells us something

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Speaker 2: important about her. Her closest loyalty is to any organization

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Speaker 2: or person. It's to herself, her image, you could even

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Speaker 2: say her ego. Sarah Jane wants to live a big,

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Speaker 2: important life. She wants to feel significant and exceptional. She

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Speaker 2: knows she's smart. She probably feels like the smartest person

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Speaker 2: in a lot of the room she's in, and because

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Speaker 2: of that, it's possible she feels like the rules.

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Speaker 3: Don't apply to her.

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Speaker 2: So from that perspective, Sarah Jane's willingness to work with

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Speaker 2: the FBI starts to seem a little less out of

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Speaker 2: left field. Yes, being in the radical groups gave Sarah

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Speaker 2: Jane purpose, but being an FBI informant made her feel

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Speaker 2: important in a way those groups never did. The government

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Speaker 2: was coming to her for help. She had something they wanted,

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Speaker 2: and she liked the way that made her feel, and

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Speaker 2: so she said yes. But according to interviews with Sarah

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Speaker 2: Jane from later in her life, there was another reason

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Speaker 2: she agreed to go along with the informant work. She

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Speaker 2: told reporters that she believed that keeping close ties to

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Speaker 2: the FBI was actually in service to her activist friends.

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Speaker 2: Working with the FBI I meant that she was getting

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Speaker 2: access to information about their inner workings, which she could

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Speaker 2: share with the radicals when it would benefit them, And

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Speaker 2: so Sarah Jane did both. She became a real life

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Speaker 2: double agent. She continued sending information about her radical friends

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Speaker 2: to the FBI, and she passed whatever bits of intel

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Speaker 2: she could gather from her FBI contacts to her radical friends.

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Speaker 2: To avoid suspicion, she told the activists she used to

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Speaker 2: be an FBI informant, and so she knew certain things

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Speaker 2: about how they worked. Sarah Jane's weaseling could only take

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Speaker 2: her so far. She may have been charming and good

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Speaker 2: at making connections, that Sarah Jane never quite understood how

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Speaker 2: to build real trust with people. Just like the other

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Speaker 2: kids in her neighborhood in West Virginia, the activists could

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Speaker 2: sense that something.

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Speaker 3: Was off about Sarah Jane.

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Speaker 2: According to interviews with fellow members of Sarah Jane's activist groups,

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Speaker 2: she was intelligent and articulate, and she showed up with enthusiasm.

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Speaker 2: She was also headstrong and difficult to work with. Somedays

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Speaker 2: she would show up to the PENN headquarters beaming with

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Speaker 2: praise for how everyone was doing, and on other days

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Speaker 2: she'd loudly complained about how much work she had to

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Speaker 2: do and yell at anyone who interrupted her train of

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Speaker 2: thought with a question. Her behavior was volatile and unpredictable,

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Speaker 2: and eventually members of PENN had enough. One morning, Sarah

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Speaker 2: Janeane entered the headquarters and turned in the direction of

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Speaker 2: her office where she did her accounting volunteer work, and

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Speaker 2: stopped in her tracks. A group of high up volunteers

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Speaker 2: were crowded around her desk, thumbing through papers. What are

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Speaker 2: you doing, she shouted, No one touches my ledgers except me.

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Speaker 2: If there's any checking to do, I'll do it now.

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Speaker 2: Get the hell out of here. But the volunteers already

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Speaker 2: saw what they needed to see a quick look through

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Speaker 2: her desk drawer revealed that Sarah Jane had done little,

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Speaker 2: if any, of the accounting work she claimed to have

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Speaker 2: been doing. The volunteers found checks that hadn't been deposited

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Speaker 2: and a stack of unpaid invoices stuffed at the back

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Speaker 2: of the drawer. The donation summary reports she had been

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Speaker 2: asked to prepare were nowhere to be found. What Sarah

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Speaker 2: Jane had been spending all her time doing in this

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Speaker 2: office was a mystery. Two of the group's security guards

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Speaker 2: then grabs Sarah Jane under her arms and swiftly walked

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Speaker 2: her toward the exit. She protested, but I'm the chief bookkeeper.

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Speaker 2: No one knows how to do anything here. They're just

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Speaker 2: a bunch of idiots.

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Speaker 3: One of the men.

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Speaker 2: Said, go home, Sarah Jane, get some rest and don't

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Speaker 2: come back here. You will not be let I can,

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Speaker 2: and that was that. Sarah Jane was out, but rather

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Speaker 2: than slow her down, her ejection from the PEN program

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Speaker 2: was neither an emotional nor a practical setback for Sarah Jane.

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Speaker 2: She simply moved on to other activist groups. She attended,

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Speaker 2: meeting after meeting, introducing herself and making connections. Sarah Jane

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Speaker 2: always knew how to charm people, and she turned out

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Speaker 2: to be a natural at getting information. She would show

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Speaker 2: up with an extra pack of cigarettes in her purse

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Speaker 2: and share them with folks during long group conversations. FYI,

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Speaker 2: the PI I used to date, used to do this.

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Speaker 2: Apparently smoke breaks are where people let their guards down.

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Speaker 2: People started opening up to her, and she was ready

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Speaker 2: with pen and.

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Speaker 3: Paper to take notes.

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Speaker 2: But the career of an FBI informant doesn't last forever.

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Speaker 2: Sooner or later people start to smell a rat, especially

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Speaker 2: in a small scene like the one in San Francisco,

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Speaker 2: and once the suspicion starts, it can be impossible to

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Speaker 2: regain that trust. According to Sarah Jane, at some point

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Speaker 2: word got out, whether true or fabricated, that she was

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Speaker 2: in cahoots with the FBI. More groups began ostracizing her.

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Speaker 2: Sarah Jane later said that she received death threats and

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Speaker 2: that she began to fear for her life, which is

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Speaker 2: why on Monday morning, September twenty second, nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 2: Sarah Jane called a gun dealer in the Bay Area

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Speaker 2: and asked if she could make a purchase.

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Speaker 3: So here we are.

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Speaker 2: It's the day of the shooting in September nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 2: and Sarah Jane is on the phone with a small

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Speaker 2: time gun dealer. She says she wants to meet him

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Speaker 2: that morning to pick up a revolver. He agrees to

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Speaker 2: meet her, and she leaves his home a few hours

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Speaker 2: later with a thirty eight caliber.

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Speaker 3: Smith and Wesson.

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Speaker 2: As we know from part one of this series, Sarah

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Speaker 2: Jane drove from the gun dealer's house directly to the

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Speaker 2: hotel in San Francisco where President Ford was attending an event.

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Speaker 2: This may be my anxiety showing, but the quick turnaround

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Speaker 2: here really stresses me out, Like you're planning an assassination

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Speaker 2: for later today, but you don't have.

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Speaker 3: The weapon yet.

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Speaker 2: This, if nothing else, is proof that she was living

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Speaker 2: on the edge. Sarah Jane stood outside in the crowd

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Speaker 2: with hundreds of other people with the gun in her

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Speaker 2: purse and waited until he emerged from the building. Then

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Speaker 2: she fired a single shot which missed Ford's head by

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Speaker 2: about six inches before she was tackled to the ground

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Speaker 2: and apprehended by police. Now by all accounts, Sarah Jane

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Speaker 2: was acting pretty normal in the days and weeks leading

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Speaker 2: up to the shooting. There was no escalating behavior, she

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Speaker 2: didn't seem distressed or erratic, well no more erratic than usual,

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Speaker 2: and there wasn't any talk of assassinating the president among

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Speaker 2: her radical groups. President Ford may have been the face

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Speaker 2: of a government they were highly critical of, but killing

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Speaker 2: him wasn't something any of them were actually.

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Speaker 3: Motivated to do.

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Speaker 2: By all accounts, this shooting came out of nowhere and

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Speaker 2: with something Sarah Jane.

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Speaker 3: Did on her own.

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Speaker 2: Now it was going to be up to the police

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Speaker 2: to uncover what got her from point A attending activist

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Speaker 2: meetings and informing for the FBI to point B pointing

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Speaker 2: a revolver at the sitting president, and to decide what

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Speaker 2: to do with her next. As we know from last

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Speaker 2: week's episode, dramatic outbursts were nothing new for Sarah Jane,

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Speaker 2: but this one was different. There was nowhere for her

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Speaker 2: to run this time, no one to swoop in and

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Speaker 2: apologize for her behavior. The world was finally going to

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Speaker 2: get a close look at Sarah Jane Moore. Immediately after

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Speaker 2: she was handcuffed by police, Sarah Jane was taken to

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Speaker 2: a secure room inside the Saint Francis Hotel for questioning. There,

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Speaker 2: officers removed her handcuffs and turned on their tape recorders.

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Speaker 2: They listened as Sarah Jane gave a rambling account of

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Speaker 2: everything she did that morning and a vague but emotional

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Speaker 2: retelling of her assassination attempt. According to the officers who

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Speaker 2: were there that day, even though Sarah Jane spoke with

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Speaker 2: eloquence and enthusiasm right away, she was making very little sense.

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Speaker 2: She evaded the officer's questions, even the most straightforward ones.

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Speaker 2: Every chance she had to speak, she launched into a

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Speaker 2: twisted and lengthy word salad that never actually got them

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Speaker 2: closer to understanding why she did this.

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Speaker 1: To me.

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Speaker 2: She's the person who corners you at the party and

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Speaker 2: tells you at length about their weird niche interest for

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Speaker 2: forty minutes, even though you have done nothing to deserve

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Speaker 2: this monologue. Search YouTube for a video interview with her,

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Speaker 2: and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Eventually, when officers

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Speaker 2: realized they weren't going to get very far with her,

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Speaker 2: they tucked her into the back of a police car

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Speaker 2: and dropped her off at San Francisco County Jail, where

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Speaker 2: she would stay until her trial. Sarah Jane requested a

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Speaker 2: public defender named James Hewitt to represent her, and Hewitt

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00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,840
Speaker 2: realized right away that their best bet would be an

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Speaker 2: insanity defense. I like to imagine that he stopped her

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Speaker 2: mid sentence about why s peranto should be a real

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Speaker 2: language and said, your brain is broke. That didn't happen,

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Speaker 2: but it's fun to imagine. The first step in preparing

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Speaker 2: that insanity defense would be to determine whether Sarah Jane

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Speaker 2: was mentally fit to stand trial. Those close to Sarah

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Speaker 2: Jane spent years trying to understand her bizarre and often

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Speaker 2: destructive behavior. Now it was the professional's turn over the

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Speaker 2: next few months, as Sarah Jane awaited her trial in

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Speaker 2: a county jail cell, a group of mental health specialists

283
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 2: visited Sarah Jane to interview her and run assessments. Hewitt,

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Speaker 2: her attorney, hopes that these assessments would offer some kind

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Speaker 2: of concrete diagnosis that might support his insanity plea, or

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00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,159
Speaker 2: at least lay the groundwork for some kind of believable

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00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,000
Speaker 2: story he could use to explain her behavior to a jury.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately for Hewitt, the psychiatrists had just as much trouble

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Speaker 2: understanding Sarah Jane as the police officers did when they

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Speaker 2: interviewed her after the shooting. In their reports to Hewitt,

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00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,639
Speaker 2: the psychiatrist said that in her own charming way, Sarah

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Speaker 2: Jane was frustratingly uncooperative. For one thing, she wouldn't discuss

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Speaker 2: her upbringing or background at all. She was cagey, constantly

294
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Speaker 2: either dodging questions or shifting the conversation into a direction

295
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Speaker 2: she wanted to go in. Eventually, though, the specialists were

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Speaker 2: able to come up with some hypotheses. According to the reports,

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00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane might either have a hysterical personality disorder, a

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Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder, or bipolar disorder. The psychologist described a

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Speaker 2: pattern of excessive emotionality, attention seeking, excessive need for approval,

300
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Speaker 2: extreme episodes of mania and depression, and an unquenchable need

301
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Speaker 2: for admiration, as well as a complete lack of empathy.

302
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Speaker 2: One doctor described the way she presented as quote, pleasant, intelligent,

303
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,679
Speaker 2: and sometimes witty and bantering. She is always neatly dressed

304
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,919
Speaker 2: in the limited county prison wardrobe. She apparently goes to

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00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,480
Speaker 2: great efforts to present the best possible appearance. She particularly

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00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 2: seems to find it important not to give any impression

307
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Speaker 2: of being flustered or in any way under great tension.

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Speaker 2: All of this posturing could fool people for a while,

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Speaker 2: but she could only keep up the facade for so long.

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Speaker 2: The same doctor said, you never know to what extent

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Speaker 2: she doesn't have things straight. Now, I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: a quick moment to editorialize here. So often in the

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Speaker 2: stories I research for this show, all we have to

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Speaker 2: go on is either personal accounts from the criminal's recover

315
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 2: or descriptions of their behavior from those close to them.

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Speaker 2: It's a rare treat to have actual psychological assessments to reference.

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Speaker 2: And even though psychologists at the time couldn't quite agree

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Speaker 2: on a diagnosis for Sarah Jane, the fact that they

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00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: could put words to the bizarre and manipulative behaviors we've

320
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: seen her demonstrate gives us that much more clarity about her. Yes,

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00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 2: she did seek attention and approval to an unusual degree,

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Speaker 2: and yes, she did struggle to empathize with the people

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Speaker 2: around her. It wasn't just an abrasive personality. Sarah Jane

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00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 2: had a real darkness inside of her, one that she

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00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: had used multiple times to manipulate people to get what

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Speaker 2: she wanted. But despite their reports about her mental health challenges,

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Speaker 2: the psychologists agreed that their findings weren't enough to prove

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Speaker 2: that she was mentally unfit to stand trial. In other words,

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Speaker 2: she was well enough to face a judge, so a

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Speaker 2: few months later she did. Now there's one piece of

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Speaker 2: Sarah Jane's life that we haven't touched on yet in

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Speaker 2: this episode. It's something pretty significant that you might assume

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Speaker 2: would have been weighing heavily on her at this time,

334
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Speaker 2: the safety and whereabouts of her son, Frederick, who was

335
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Speaker 2: nine years old by now. As Sarah Jane was making

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Speaker 2: her way through the court system, conferring with her lawyer

337
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: and being evaluated by doctors, the San Francisco Juvenile Authority

338
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: was watching over Frederick with a father whom Sarah Jane

339
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: had never really allowed in the picture. Frederick was left

340
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: alone in the world to watch his mother's name get

341
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: plastered across newspapers around the country. The tragic thing is

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Speaker 2: Frederick had family, a lot of it. Remember Sarah Jane's

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Speaker 2: four other children, whom she'd abandoned years ago to live

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Speaker 2: with their grandparents in West Virginia. Poor Frederick knew nothing

345
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Speaker 2: about them, and they knew nothing about him. He was

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Speaker 2: completely cut off from anyone in the world but his mother,

347
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Speaker 2: who might very well be spending the rest of her

348
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Speaker 2: life behind bars. On October thirtieth, nineteen seventy five, a

349
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Speaker 2: month after the shooting, Frederick sat small and bewildered in

350
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Speaker 2: the San Francisco Youth Guidance Center for a hearing that

351
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 2: would decide where he'd be spending possibly the rest of

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Speaker 2: his life. Social workers tried hard to find someone to

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Speaker 2: take responsibility for Frederick. If no one stepped up, he

354
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: would have to be sir to the foster care system. Thankfully,

355
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Speaker 2: a sweet middle aged couple named Charles and Gale Roberts

356
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 2: agreed to take him in. The Roberts were acquaintances of

357
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Speaker 2: Sarah Jane's in San Francisco, and they volunteered to take

358
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Speaker 2: Frederick once they realized that the chances of Sarah Jane

359
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Speaker 2: going to prison were pretty high. Frederick would end up

360
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Speaker 2: living with them until he graduated high school nearly ten

361
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Speaker 2: years later. Not much is known about Frederick's life after

362
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Speaker 2: this point, because, to the Roberts credit, they were very

363
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Speaker 2: protective of his privacy and rarely spoke.

364
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Speaker 3: To the media.

365
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Speaker 2: What we do know is that they worked as hard

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Speaker 2: as they could to give him a normal life. So now,

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Speaker 2: twenty years after she abandoned her first four children, Sarah

368
00:25:47,600 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 2: Jane was effectively doing it again. Back in jail, Sarah

369
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Speaker 2: Jane was preparing for her court case. Her actions on

370
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: September twenty second were undeniable. Plenty of people saw what

371
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: she did. It was caught on film. There was no

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00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: chance in her attorney's mind that she could convince a

373
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Speaker 2: jury she was not guilty. Hewittt was sure her best

374
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Speaker 2: bet was an insanity plea, or, in official words, not guilty.

375
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Speaker 2: Due to diminished capacity. Hewitt could lean into her questionable

376
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Speaker 2: psych assessments and draw on examples of Sarah Jane's unusual

377
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 2: behavior from her early life to paint a picture of

378
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: a capable woman who wasn't in her right mind during

379
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Speaker 2: the incident. She may have been reckless in her actions,

380
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: but she didn't mean to cause harm. The judge would

381
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: give her a few years at jail time, but it

382
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 2: would be nothing like the potential life sentence that a

383
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 2: full on presidential assassination attempt could get her if she

384
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: pled not guilty. Unfortunately for Hewitt, Sarah Jane didn't appear

385
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 2: to be concerned about her jail time. In fact, she

386
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: was completely uncooperative in her conversations with him. She wouldn't

387
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: answer any of his questions about the days and months

388
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: preceding the shooting, and she refused to say anything about

389
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: her past. When he asked her about her motive for

390
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 2: the shooting, she simply said that it was complicated. For

391
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane, the most important thing was that she wasn't

392
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 2: labeled crazy. Once again, it seemed Sarah Jane was more

393
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 2: concerned about the image she was projecting with the story

394
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 2: she wanted to tell about herself than with her actual circumstances.

395
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: You can imagine how frustrating this would be for someone

396
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: whose job it was to help Sarah Jane. Hewitt couldn't

397
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: understand why Sarah Jane could possibly be prioritizing.

398
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 3: Her image this way when so much was on the line.

399
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 2: He was later quoted as saying, I can only assume

400
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: she would rather go down in history as a crusader

401
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: than a demented malcontent. Sarah Jane's psychologist had some interesting

402
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 2: things to say about her preoccupation with her image. To

403
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 2: one doctor described her as a blank slate who would

404
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 2: periodically adopt different roles and play them out until they

405
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: were used up. The role she was playing on September

406
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 2: twenty second, he said, was Sarah Jane Moore the vanguard

407
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: of a vast and implacable movement, and she couldn't stand

408
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: to have that role tarnished, even if it meant spending

409
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: her life in prison. In the end, James Hewitt had

410
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: no hope of convincing Sarah Jane to plead not guilty.

411
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: She insisted on maintaining the story that she was not

412
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: only mentally fit to stand trial, but that she was

413
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: of sound mind on the day she shot at the president.

414
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 2: On January sixteenth, nineteen seventy six, Sarah Jane pled guilty

415
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: to attempting to assassinate the President of the United States

416
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 2: and had a sentencing hearing where she had a chance

417
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: to read a statement to the judge. There's a section

418
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: of her statement that I'm going to read to you now,

419
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: because I think it really captures just how defiant she

420
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: was and totally unclear of her own motives. She said,

421
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: do I think assassination is a valid political tool?

422
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 4: Yes?

423
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 3: Am I sorry? I tried?

424
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 4: Yes?

425
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: And no, Yes because it accomplished little except to throw

426
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: away the rest of my life. And no, I'm not sorry.

427
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: I tried because at the time it seemed a correct

428
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 2: expression of my anger and if successful, the assassination just

429
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: might have triggered the kind of chaos that could have

430
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: started the upheaval of change. So not only is she

431
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: claiming to be totally in control of herself and her

432
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: actions on this day, but the only thing she regrets

433
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: is the prison term she's about to have. The judge

434
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 2: sentenced her with the maximum life in prison, and no

435
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: one in the courtroom reacted, not that there was anyone

436
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: there to support Sarah Jane anyway. None of her five children,

437
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: none of her siblings, none of her ex husbands, her

438
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: parents or friends showed up. Sarah Jane began serving her

439
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: sentence the very next day, stepping off the bus for

440
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: her first day at Alderton Women's Reformatory in Alderton, West Virginia.

441
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane might have felt a bit of nostalgia, even comfort.

442
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: The prison complex was nestled in some quaint woods, with

443
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 2: a lazy river and a railroad track running behind it,

444
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: and it was only one hundred and forty five miles

445
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: from her hometown of Charleston. But that's before she got

446
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: to Davis Hall, the maximum security unit where she would

447
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: be living. Davis housed prisoners from federal prisons all over

448
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: the United States. Windows at Davis were made of several

449
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: layers of the unbreakable polycarbonate plastic and an eight foot

450
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: fence with a razor wire on top. Surrounded the facility

451
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: cells at Davis were cinder block rooms with barred windows

452
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: and heavy metal doors, the kind of thing you might

453
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: draw as a kid if your teacher asks you what

454
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: a prison looked like. The Isolation lock Up, also known

455
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: as solitary or the shoe, was another cinder block room,

456
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: separate from the regular cells and about half the size

457
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: of them. It was just five feet by eight feet

458
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: and was surrounded by metal bars on all sides. Double

459
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: metal interlocking bars with heavy bolts made sure no one

460
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,239
Speaker 2: could get out. Sarah Jane didn't know it then, but

461
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: she would end up spending many many days inside that room.

462
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: By this point, it should come as no surprise that

463
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane caused trouble in prison wardens at nearly every

464
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: facility Sarah Jane spent time at quickly labeled her as

465
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: an agitator. She of course rejected that label. She wasn't

466
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: a troublemaker. She was a political prisoner. Her story was

467
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 2: always that she was being target because she was a

468
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: critic of the US government. Any flag she received from

469
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: corrections officers was, in her mind, a sign that she

470
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: was being singled out. At the slightest whiff of mistreatment,

471
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane would act out a routine random urine test

472
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: sent her into a fit. Anytime her mail arrived late

473
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: or she missed out on something in the mess hall,

474
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: she lodged a complaint. She would even go on hunger strikes. Once,

475
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: she even tried to escape, and she was nearly successful.

476
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 2: For every one of these displays, she was given time

477
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: in solitary. Sometimes it was weeks, sometimes months. That's months

478
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: at a time in a little five x eight cel

479
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 2: with nothing to do but read, write, and think. Other

480
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: inmates at Alderton probably didn't mind much when she was

481
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: locked away in the shoe. By all accounts, it seems

482
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: they found her pretty hard to be around. Sarah Jane

483
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,479
Speaker 2: was known to assert herself as a leader among her

484
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: fellow prisoners and lobby for certain things from the staff.

485
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: Her crusades never actually led to acceptance or loyalty from

486
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: her fellow prisoners. In fact, according to some letters she

487
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: wrote to reporters while she was in prison, she was

488
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: frequently harassed, both verbally and physically. I have to tell you,

489
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: every time I start to feel a little sympathy for

490
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane, she undercuts it by positioning herself as the victim.

491
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 2: One of the most fascinating and revealing stories from her

492
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 2: time in prison has to do with her family. According

493
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: to her letters from prison, Sarah Jane frequently complained of

494
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 2: loneliness and lamented the fact that no one ever visited her.

495
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: I wish I was closer to someone who knows me

496
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 2: so I could have regular visits, she wrote. Now, as

497
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: I have mentioned, Alderton happened to be one hundred and

498
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: forty five miles or about three and a half hours

499
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: from Sarah Jane's hometown in West Virginia. Sarah Jane's parents, siblings,

500
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 2: and three of her children were still living in West

501
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 2: Virginia at the time, and they did attempt to visit her.

502
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 2: Just three days after Sarah Jane arrived at Alderton, her

503
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: daughter Janet, drove to the prison to see her. Janet

504
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: was twenty four years old now, and it would have

505
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,919
Speaker 2: been the first time she'd seen her mother since being

506
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 2: sent away at the age of three. When Janet arrived

507
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: at Alderton and requested a visit, Sarah Jane told the

508
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: prison staff that she didn't have a daughter, so Janet

509
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: was sent away. Can you imagine she drove three and

510
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 2: a half hours one way, only to be turned away

511
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: by her incarcerated, estranged mother. And Janet wasn't the only

512
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: member of the family who attempted a visit. One of

513
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane's brothers also called the warden at Alderton and

514
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: asked if he could meet with Sarah Jane, but she

515
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: refused to see him. As we well, we'll never know

516
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 2: why she was so resistant to contact with her family,

517
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: but one thing is for sure. That line of I

518
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: wish I was closer to someone who knows me was

519
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: just a bullshit eploy for sympathy. Sarah Jane ended up

520
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 2: getting shuffled around to a few different facilities through her

521
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: time in prison. And there's a lot more I could

522
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: tell you about the next few decades of her life,

523
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: But by all accounts, it seems like her attitude cooled

524
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 2: off the longer she was behind bars. She was still defiant,

525
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: and she still ended up spending a few more months

526
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: in the shoe.

527
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 3: But despite all.

528
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 2: That, on December thirty first, two thousand and seven, Sarah

529
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 2: Jane Moore was released to serve five years of parole.

530
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 2: She was seventy seven years old and she had been

531
00:36:47,960 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: incarcerated for thirty two of those years. Stepping off the

532
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: bus for her first day at Alderton Women's Reformatory in Alderton,

533
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 2: West Virginia, Sarah Jane might have felt a bit of nostalgia,

534
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: even comfort. The prison complex was nestled in some quaint woods,

535
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 2: with a lazy river and a railroad track running behind it,

536
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: and it was only one hundred and forty five miles

537
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 2: from her hometown of Charleston. But that's before she got

538
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: to Davis Hall, the maximum security unit where she would

539
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 2: be living. Davis housed prisoners from federal prisons all over

540
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 2: the United States. Windows at Davis were made of several

541
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: layers of the unbreakable polycarbonate plastic and an eight foot

542
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: fence with a razor wire on top. Surrounded the facility

543
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 2: cells at Davis were cinderblock rooms with barred windows and

544
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 2: heavy metal doors, the kind of thing you might draw

545
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: as a kid if your teacher asks you what a

546
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 2: prison looked like. The isolation lock up, also known as

547
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: solitary or the shoe, with another cinder block room separate

548
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: from the regular cells and about half the size of them.

549
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: It was just five feet by eight feet and was

550
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 2: surrounded by metal bars on all sides. Double metal interlocking

551
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 2: bars with heavy bolts made sure no one could get out.

552
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane didn't know it then, but she would end

553
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: up spending many many days inside that room. So let's

554
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: return to the question I posed at the beginning of

555
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 2: this episode. How is it that this bright, capable, unassuming

556
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 2: suburban mom could find herself within six inches of killing

557
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: the thirty eighth president of the United States. She was

558
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: given every opportunity for a successful, happy life. She could

559
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: have raised a loving family, She could have had a

560
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: supportive marriage. She could have even led a fulfilling life

561
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: as an activist On the other hand, Sarah Jane consistently

562
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 2: showed signs of being disturbed or at least of questionable

563
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: decision making. Why didn't the FBI pick up on these signals?

564
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 2: What was their vetting process like before hiring her as

565
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 2: an informant? Did they set her up to do something?

566
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 3: Radical?

567
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: Law enforcement has been asking themselves these questions since the

568
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 2: day of the shooting. In fact, for the first twenty

569
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 2: five years Sarah Jane was in prison, two Secret Service

570
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 2: agents would visit her once a year on the anniversary

571
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 2: of the shooting, to question her at length about her motivations.

572
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane was, of course, evasive and never gave them

573
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 2: much informa, surprising no one, but they continued to hope

574
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: that speaking with her would help them establish some patterns.

575
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 2: Their goal was both to understand her unique motivations, but

576
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 2: also to clarify the profile they used to spot other

577
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 2: possible assassins. The information they gathered is, of course confidential,

578
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 2: but I have a little armchair theory. Sarah Jane Moore

579
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 2: was a woman with undiagnosed mental health issues that manifested

580
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: as delusions of grandeur, attention seeking behavior, and manipulation of

581
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: those close to her. She wasn't driven by a commitment

582
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 2: to any cause. What she was driven by was a

583
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: desire to feel important, to do something that mattered, to

584
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 2: be at the center of things, and if those in

585
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 2: power wouldn't let her into the center of things, she

586
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 2: would figure out a way to get there. That's why

587
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: she could never fathom putting her children's lives before her own.

588
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: That's why she acted alone and told no one of

589
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: her plans. That's why she fought so hard against being

590
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: labeled insane during her trial. The more you learn about her,

591
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: the less about her feels real. She tries on one

592
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: persona after another, but nothing seems to fit. For all

593
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: the persona she has tried on and discarded, For all

594
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 2: the twists and turns her life is taken, the one

595
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 2: thing that remained consistent for Sarah Jane was how hard

596
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 2: she worked at crafting her image. One thing she never

597
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: failed to prioritize was the way she looked to the

598
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 2: outside world, and that remains true even to this day,

599
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,240
Speaker 2: because as of this recording, Sarah Jane Moore is still alive.

600
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 2: She's ninety four years old. It's not clear where she's living,

601
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: but she did make her way into the news in

602
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen when she was arrested at JFK Airport in

603
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: New York for leaving the country without telling her parole officer.

604
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: In twenty five, fifteen, when she was eighty five years old,

605
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane gave what might be her last live television interview.

606
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,280
Speaker 2: With a polite smile and a glint in her eye,

607
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: she spoke to a CNN anchor about why she did

608
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: what she did and how she characterizes her crime now

609
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 2: forty years later. One of the most telling moments for

610
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: me came when the anchor asked her what she thinks

611
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 2: about her time served.

612
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 5: You then were given five years of parole. Are you

613
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 5: still on parole?

614
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 4: Yes? I am.

615
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: The rules say that after five years of clear conduct,

616
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: like your mandatory release, you're supposed to be released from parole.

617
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: And I am now seven years of clear conduct and

618
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: have yet to be released from parole.

619
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 5: And why is that? I mean, I believe that you

620
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 5: have gone on and proven as best you can to

621
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 5: the court that you are now an upstanding citizen. You've

622
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 5: turned over a new leaf. So what do they tell you?

623
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: Well, I was always a pretty good citizen. Let's not

624
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: talk about it turning over a new leaf.

625
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: So apparently the fact that she abandoned four of her

626
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: children on her parents' doorstep twenty years before the shooting

627
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 2: doesn't register in Sarah Jane's mind as bad behavior. Either

628
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 2: that or, more likely, it doesn't drive with the version

629
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: of herself, the spirited but harmless housewife that she wants

630
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: on display. In this interview, Sarah Jane goes on about

631
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:26,720
Speaker 2: her parole.

632
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: The first time that they turned me down, I was

633
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: shocked because one would have thought the incident had happened

634
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: the day before, the way they talked about me, and

635
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: I was in total shock. And they repeated much the

636
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: same this time. They're supposed to release you unless they're

637
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: unless they feel that you're going to commit another offense.

638
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 1: And I don't know what offense I would commit, jaywalking perhaps.

639
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, there you have.

640
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 5: I mean, I say, you've turned over a new leaf,

641
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 5: and you bristle at that. But you tried to kill

642
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 5: the president of the United States back then.

643
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: Yes, But it makes it sound like I was a

644
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: totally different person, and I was pretty much the person

645
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: I am now. Had gotten into something over my head.

646
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: I will admit that had quit listening to reason. So

647
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: for a little while I was a different person. But

648
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: in terms of being your ordinary normal citizen who gets

649
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: up and goes to work, and you know, I think

650
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: the most Yeah, I think the only Kremin'd had before it.

651
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: I've gotten a ticket for jaywalking.

652
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 2: Sure, she's served more than thirty years in prison. Maybe

653
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: it's time to just let this woman live her life.

654
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, when you hear her speak

655
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 2: about her crime, this cavalierly and with so little apparent remorse,

656
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: you can't help but wonder what else she might be

657
00:44:53,640 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: capable of. This has been part two of our two

658
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,959
Speaker 2: part series about Sarah Jane Moore, the woman who tried

659
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: to kill the President. I'd like to shout out the

660
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 2: book Housewife Assassin The Woman who Tried to Kill President

661
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: Ford by Jerry Spieler one more time. That was our

662
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 2: primary source for this series, and it's the best reporting

663
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: and account of Sarah Jane Moore's life, crimes, trial, and

664
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 2: prison sentence that's out there. Jerry Spieler is a fantastic

665
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 2: journalist who spent decades writing letters and making phone calls

666
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: to Sarah Jane while she was in prison. She had

667
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: access to Sarah Jane in a way that no other

668
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 2: reporter ever did, and she has lots to tell us

669
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 2: about what Sarah Jane is like behind the scenes. Did

670
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,399
Speaker 2: Jerry ever get past Sarah Jane's carefully crafted image? Find

671
00:45:54,400 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 2: out from Jerry herself after the break. Hi, Jerry, thank

672
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 2: you so much for coming on and talking to me.

673
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,879
Speaker 2: I heard that there's a really interesting story about how

674
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: the book came about. Can you tell us?

675
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 4: Yes, I call it the backstory, and I'll describe it.

676
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 4: I was living in Los Angeles and I was working

677
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 4: for the Times down there. Sarah Jane Moore in nineteen

678
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 4: seventy five was in San Francisco when she took a

679
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 4: shot at President Ford and what was not out at

680
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 4: the time, as she missed his head by six inches,

681
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 4: and that was never in the press. But I wasn't

682
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 4: covering her. I was assigned to do a story about

683
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 4: sybil Brand Jail, which is the largest women's jail in

684
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 4: the country, and there was a class action suit against

685
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 4: the jail because the law library wasn't equal to the

686
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 4: men's library. So I was asked as a reporter to

687
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 4: cover that story, which I did, and it appeared in

688
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 4: the paper and Sarah Jane was closer to San Diego

689
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 4: being evaluated by a psychiatrists because she pleaded guilty, and

690
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 4: when somebody pleads guilty, the court wants to know that

691
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 4: they're in the right mind to do that and not

692
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 4: plead not guilty. And so while she was being evaluated

693
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 4: by the psychiatrist, she got a copy of the newspaper

694
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 4: and she saw the story I wrote about women in prison.

695
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 4: In her mind, if I write about women in prison,

696
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 4: I'm sympathetic to women in prison. No, I write about

697
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 4: murderers too, I'm not sympathetic. But she wrote to me

698
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 4: and said, I'd like to meet you well, and I'm thinking, huh,

699
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 4: I've never met an assassin before. I wonder what she's

700
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 4: like for real, I've ever been in a prison before.

701
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 4: So I said, sure, you know, so it had to happen.

702
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 4: She saw she shot in September seventy five, but by

703
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 4: the time she had her hearing and her you know which,

704
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 4: she was going to be sentenced, it was January of

705
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 4: seventy six, and I got on her visitors list and

706
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 4: I went to meet her because I was curious. And

707
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,439
Speaker 4: I was sitting in this like human warehouse, this big

708
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 4: room and I'm sitting on a chair and a woman

709
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,439
Speaker 4: comes out of the door across from me, and she's

710
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 4: walking towards me. She's in civilian clothes and I just

711
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 4: figured she's somebody that works there. She walks up to

712
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 4: me and she grabs my hand like this, and she says,

713
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 4: are you Jerry? And I said yes. She said, oh,

714
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 4: thank you for coming. It's so lovely of you. And

715
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 4: I'm thinking, are we going out to lunch? Who is

716
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 4: this person? This is not a presidential assassin? But that

717
00:48:54,800 --> 00:49:00,439
Speaker 4: was Sarah Jane. That's how we met. And I told her, look,

718
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 4: I'm not here because i'm your fan. I don't agree

719
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 4: with what you did. I'm not here to save you.

720
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 4: I was just interested in who you are. But know

721
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 4: that I don't agree with what you did. It was wrong.

722
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,720
Speaker 4: It was the wrong approach for whatever reasons you had,

723
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 4: Assassinating the president was not the right approach. Okay, that's fine.

724
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 4: She said she loved newspaper reporters. She never met a

725
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 4: reporter she didn't love.

726
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 3: Oh.

727
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 4: We kept in touch. I was curious about her. She

728
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 4: also had a nine year old son, and I felt

729
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 4: bad for him, so I sent him birthday cards and

730
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 4: gifts for his birthday on her behalf, and that just

731
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 4: went along for twenty years or so. I was a journalist.

732
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 4: I had no vision of being an author. Ever, it

733
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 4: was not my mission in life to write a book.

734
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 4: So twenty some years later, when she asked me to

735
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 4: write her book, I said, no, write your own book,

736
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 4: write your own story. I don't write books. They're too

737
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 4: hard and they take too long. I write fifteen hundred

738
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 4: words and I'm out of here. That's great. She nagged,

739
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 4: She nagged, And you know, over the years, I don't

740
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 4: go home and research everybody I talked to. If I

741
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 4: talk to you, you know, we have a conversation, I

742
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 4: don't go home and start researching what you said. If

743
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 4: she said this guy was brown, I don't care. This

744
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 4: guy's brown had no influence on my life. So she

745
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 4: talked about her garden club, or her home, or her

746
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 4: this or her that. I go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But

747
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 4: then when she wanted me to write about her, I

748
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 4: started doing some research. Everything on the internet about her

749
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 4: was wrong. Half of what she told me realies. That's

750
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 4: when my spidy sense, my journalism spidey sense, started going off,

751
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 4: and I realized that the real story had never been told.

752
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 4: And I contacted the FBI, I contacted the Secret Service.

753
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 4: But before that, I contacted Catholic priest Father Bill O'Reilly

754
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 4: in Berkeley at Saint Joseph's of the Worker's Church, who

755
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 4: was a major political activist. He marched with Caesar Shavez.

756
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 4: He did this, he did that, and he knew Sarah Jane.

757
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 4: And I asked if I could talk to him about

758
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 4: her nothing confidential, of course, and he said sure, and

759
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 4: he wrote to Sarah Jane and he said, oh, I understand,

760
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 4: Jerry Spieler is going to write your book. That's so wonderful.

761
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 4: She was furious. She called me on the phone and

762
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 4: I used to accept her phone calls, screaming at me,

763
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 4: how dare you? How dare you contact him? I will

764
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 4: tell you what to say, and I will tell you

765
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 4: who you could talk to. And I said, Sarah Jane,

766
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 4: her nick name was Sally, it doesn't work that way.

767
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 4: If you want me to write your book, you got

768
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 4: to let me do my job and you got to

769
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 4: let me talk to people. No, I won't do that.

770
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 4: And I said, well then we don't have a deal.

771
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 4: And she said, I am no longer at home to you. Bang.

772
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 4: She slammed down the phone. There. I was could I

773
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 4: write this book without her? And my husband, who's a

774
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 4: big fan of mine, said, well, if anybody can do it, Jerry,

775
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 4: you can. So I said, you know now that I

776
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 4: realized fifty percent of what she told me realies. What's

777
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 4: the real story?

778
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 1: Right?

779
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 4: The Secret Service and the FBI and the San Francisco

780
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 4: Police were wonderful. They talked to me and I found

781
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 4: she had a hearing in San Francisco at Superior Court

782
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 4: with Judge Samuel Conti, who was on the bench. And

783
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 4: the way it works is the FBI gets assigned to

784
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 4: do research on the case. The FBI case agent was

785
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 4: Richard Videmonte, and it took me multiple attempts to get

786
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 4: to him because nobody would give me his phone number.

787
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 4: They would all say, I'll tell him you're looking for him.

788
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 4: I needed to talk to him because he was the

789
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 4: guy right. Finally, after multiple attempts, because the FBI and

790
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 4: Secret Services and police are not going to give you

791
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 4: somebody else's phone number, they don't do that. They will

792
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 4: tell that person Jerry Spieler is looking for you. Here's

793
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 4: her contact information. Right after three attempts, I got a

794
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 4: phone call one night. I answered the phone and here's

795
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 4: this voice. Is this Jerry Smeeler, Yeah, this is veto

796
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 4: Richard Vitemonte to you here. You're looking for me? What

797
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,879
Speaker 4: do you want? That's exactly how it went. I went.

798
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 4: I'm writing a book about Sarah Jane Moore. I understand

799
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 4: you were the case agent. Can you talk to me

800
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 4: about the case? Yeah, but I'm not going to do

801
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 4: it over the phone, and I'm not going to do

802
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 4: it by email. I live in Walnut Creek, California. You

803
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 4: want to talk to me, you come up here. Well,

804
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 4: fortunately I'm in Palo Alto, Northern California. About that far

805
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 4: is yesterday too soon? And I drive up there and

806
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 4: he has a lovely home, and he invites me in

807
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 4: and we're sitting in his living room and he's just

808
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 4: chatting me up and I realize he wants to see

809
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 4: he's an FBI agent. By the way, if I'm some

810
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 4: kind of conspiracy nut job, wow, okay, And I'm not

811
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 4: right right And he says, okay, it's been thirty years.

812
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 4: It's time to set the record straight. I have to

813
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 4: call Washington. I'll let you know. But ten days later,

814
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 4: he calls me back, my poor husband. His arm was sore.

815
00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:01,240
Speaker 4: I kept hitting him. Is he gonna call me? Okay,

816
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 4: I've got the file. You come up here and we'll

817
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 4: share it with you.

818
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 3: Okay.

819
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 4: I walk in and he has everything spread out on

820
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 4: his kitchen counter. Where she was standing, where he was standing,

821
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 4: How close she was, how close she came. None of

822
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 4: this was in the press. Why because Ford was safe

823
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 4: and they didn't want the public to know how close

824
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 4: we came to another presidential assassination. She missed his head

825
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 4: by six inches. Why because the site was off of

826
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,399
Speaker 4: the gun by six inches, he said to me, and

827
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 4: I quote, if the gun hadn't been faulty, she would

828
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 4: have killed the man. She had him between the eyes.

829
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 3: Wow.

830
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 4: And all of the ouve indicted co conspirators, the group

831
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 4: called Tribal Thumb. Nobody ever heard of them. They were dangerous,

832
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 4: They killed people. They groomed her to do this. They

833
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 4: knew nobody would see her coming because she looked like

834
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 4: your neighbor lady, right. She looked like somebody wants to

835
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 4: kill a president. Definitely not according to their profile. No,

836
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 4: and I interviewed President Ford, who was alive at the time,

837
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 4: he was lovely. He was so nice. I didn't think

838
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,879
Speaker 4: he'd want to talk to me about this woman who

839
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 4: tried to kill them, but he did. I requested an

840
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 4: interview and he said yes. So that's the backstory of

841
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 4: how I came to meet her, how I kept in

842
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 4: touch with her. We exchanged letters over the years. A

843
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 4: lot of what's in the book came from the letters.

844
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 4: Things that she told me that she never told anyone.

845
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 4: How I got the file opened by the FBI, and

846
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 4: the truth. Now, she got out of prison in thirty

847
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 4: two years. Why because in nineteen eighty seven, life was

848
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 4: thirty years. Now, life is life. You don't get out.

849
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 4: But she did, and she's been out and she got remarried.

850
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 4: Fascinating to somebody who worked in the government, It's like,

851
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 4: what and she tried to kill the president? You're getting

852
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 4: married again? Okay?

853
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 3: That is so interesting to me.

854
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 2: So did you talk to her anymore after her release

855
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 2: or after she hung up on you?

856
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 4: No?

857
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 3: No, that was the end for real, Furial.

858
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 4: That was the and yeah, and there was nothing to say.

859
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 4: You know, if you ask her, she'll say the book

860
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 4: is all lies. But I had a fabulous publisher the

861
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 4: first time around, and the second time around Diversion, the

862
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:58,479
Speaker 4: first publisher was mcmellan, and we had lawyers go over

863
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 4: every single word of my book. And I was thrilled

864
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 4: because as a journalist, I kept copious notes. I have

865
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 4: a whole file cabinet of notes and vetted information because

866
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 4: I wanted people to know that there was treminous amount

867
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 4: of research and everything you read in that book is accurate.

868
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 4: And no one has ever challenged anything in my book.

869
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 4: And when Diversion came along after McMillan stopped publishing it,

870
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 4: and they came along and said we want to publish

871
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 4: the book, and they came up with a much better

872
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 4: title and did a great job publishing it, made an

873
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 4: audio book. I mean, the relationship with Diversion has just

874
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 4: been fantastic. They've just been wonderful. Really won I love

875
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 4: Diversion two. Yeah, Yeah, they're great.

876
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 2: Okay, So she just really dropped you for real, which

877
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 2: is fascinating because she was so pumped that you got

878
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 2: there that like she asked you to come yeah, and

879
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 2: then she didn't. You didn't follow her rules and then

880
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 2: she is like get out, and you were like, okay.

881
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 3: Everything I need from you os mostly lies. Anyway, fascinating.

882
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 3: What is she like in person?

883
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 4: She is charming. She does control the conversation, which isn't

884
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 4: a surprise. You know, she is a chameleon. You know.

885
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 4: In the book you'll see how she completely reinvents herself

886
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 4: over and over and over again. And the piece that

887
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 4: I wanted to highlight, and I have a quote you

888
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 4: know in the book in my notes in my letters,

889
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,919
Speaker 4: is when she abandoned her children and then she goes

890
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 4: to work at RKO Studios and she meets an Oscar

891
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 4: winning sound designer there they end up getting married. She

892
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 4: says in her letter, we have a lot in common.

893
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 4: Neither of us has any family. This is a woman

894
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 4: I've been married a couple of times and had like

895
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 4: four kids, right, and she just completely reinvents herself as

896
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 4: a little Southern bell. That's Sarah Jane.

897
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 2: I just had one more question has like two parts though.

898
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 2: So the first part is where's the best place to

899
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 2: find your work if people are obsessed with you and

900
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 2: want to know more about you and what you do?

901
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 2: And then what are you working on next?

902
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 4: So my website Jerry Spieler dot com and I just

903
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 4: had another book published it It's called Housewife Assassin. It's

904
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 4: historical fiction based on my grandmother's life. I have a trilogy, actually,

905
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 4: and the second book has been written about the daughters,

906
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 4: but each book stands alone. So Book one is out

907
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 4: Regina of Warsaw, Love, Loss and Liberation, based on my

908
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 4: grandmother's life. Book two is Revenge of the Sisters, and

909
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 4: it's a revenge book. Nobody gets shot, nobody gets beaten up,

910
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 4: but three girls have events that shape their lives and

911
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 4: they get revenge on each of these people. And I

912
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 4: don't know what the third book is yet, but they

913
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 4: can find me on my website. They can contact me

914
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 4: through my website or just Jerryspieler dot com. And I'd

915
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 4: love to talk to people and love to talk to

916
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 4: anyone about the book.

917
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 3: Oh that's wonderful.

918
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 2: We'll link to those things in our show notes as well,

919
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 2: So listeners, if y'all are like driving right now, you

920
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 2: don't have to pull over.

921
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 3: It'll be there for you.

922
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 2: The notes will be there for you, and you can

923
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 2: follow the links and get in touch with Jerry that way.

924
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 2: Thank you, Mary, Kay, absolutely, thank you so much for

925
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 2: coming to talk to me.

926
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 3: I love talking to you. This is a fascinating.

927
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 2: Story and thank you so much for sharing it with us.

928
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure.

929
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 2: For more information about this case and others we cover

930
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 2: on the show, visit diversion audio dot com. The Greatest

931
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 2: True Crime Stories Ever Told is a production of Diversion Audio.

932
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 2: I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, and I hosted this episode. This

933
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 2: episode was written by Grace Heerman. Our show is produced

934
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 2: by Emma Dumouth, edited by Antonio Enriquez, Theme music by

935
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 2: Tyler Cash. Executive produced by Scott Waxman. Join me next

936
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 2: week when I'll be telling you about the real life

937
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 2: story of love, loss and betrayal surrounding Agatha Christie, one

938
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 2: of the world's most prolific mystery writers because she wasn't

939
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 2: just a creator of dramatic stories, she actually lived one too,