WEBVTT - Selects: How Lizzie Borden Worked 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.400 All right, everybody, this is going to creep you out 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.120 a little bit because this episode is about murder, a 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.959 very famous murder. This goes back to Jeez. I don't 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:13.640 know why I rereleased it on New Year's Eve, but 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.640 we did from December. This is all about that famous 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:22.360 lady and her famous acts, how Lizzie Borden worked. It's 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:30.040 pretty grizzly, So warning about the content right now. Welcome 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:39.360 to stuff you should know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.160 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:48.840 Charles wry And and Jerry's back. Wow. Wow, Wow, look 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.760 at that fine looking lady over there. How's it going, Jerry? 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.600 She gave us it's just like old times. Yeah, Nol 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.520 was just quietly weeping outside. He is, you know, like 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:01.960 that out side Noel. He's peaking in her little portal window, 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:05.200 scratching at it. The stint of Noel a k. The 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.479 rain of terror is over done. Yes, has been deposed 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.080 by Jerry. Yeah, so now it's not Noel sitting there 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.720 or nobody sitting there, which happened more times than I 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.560 was comfortable with, at least four. Yeah, Jerry's like, wait 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.400 a minute, that we can do that. Yeah, I'm out 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:25.119 of here. Yeah, so long Jerry. So welcome back, Jerry. 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.920 And uh, we've already said congratulations on little Inez, but 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.520 who just keeps getting cuter and cuter. Yep, I know 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:35.119 things are going great, so we're happy to have you back. 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:40.360 And Lily neez, you're being very quiet. Just stay that way. 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.480 She's just rocking in her little swing. Yeah. Great. Would 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.520 that be having babies in here? Yeah? If they shut up, 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.000 wouldn't that be cool? For sure? Good energy. I would 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.400 just feel bad for him because it gets pretty gamey 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.880 in here. Yeah, even after like fifteen minutes, a couple 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:57.680 of hours. I kind of stink today. Actually, I was 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.360 going to apologize. Yeah, I didn't use to you sutorant 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:02.520 uh the last time I showered when just like two 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:07.360 days ago. It's fantastic. I know, it's terrible. I dressed up. Man, 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.320 that's a great choke that. Yeah, I'm gonna take care 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:16.119 of that tonight. That explains the sheen on your face. Okay, 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:21.200 so we're here, Jerry's here, I smell. Let's do it. 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:23.840 Since you do smell, Chuck, I have to say, at least, 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.720 at the very least I'm grateful that we don't happen 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.560 to be in Fall River, Massachusetts on the morning of Augusto, 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:37.840 because that morning was particularly particularly hot, unseasonably hot. It 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:41.840 was over a hundred degrees fahrenheit by the time noon 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:45.040 rolled around. And that figures heavily in the case of 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:49.959 Lizzie Borden and her forty and forty one wax, which 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:55.400 we're more like eighteen or nineteen and eleven. Yes, are you? 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:58.480 You were familiar with Lizie Boyd. Everybody knows Lizzie Borden, right, Yeah, 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.519 Lizzie Borden took an X, gave her mother forty wax. 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:03.880 When she found what she had done, she gave her 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:08.360 father forty one. Yeah. Wrong, there was no ax. Wasn't 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:13.320 a real mother, wasn't a real mother, There wasn't so 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.520 all about that was just made up. They think to 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.320 sell newspapers. Yes, yeah, they think it's a children's nursery 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.760 rhyme these days, little sicko children. Um, but but they 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:27.400 do think that it was possibly some newspaper hawker, a 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:32.200 newsy if you watch Disney movies, Um, who came up 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.480 with it and it just took off? We should change 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.480 it to Lizzie Borden may or may not have taken 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:41.880 a hatchet given her stepmother eighteen or nineteen wax thirteen 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.360 of them crushed her skull when she saw what she 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.560 had done. Her father got home, she gave him eleven 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.640 or so and then got away. Yeah it scot free. 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:54.560 That doesn't have the same ring. No, that doesn't. But 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.320 you basically did just sum it up pretty well, pretty accurately, Chuck. 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:00.880 So for those of you who don't know who Lizie 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:05.080 Borden is, just settled down, buckling, prepare for a wild ride. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:10.320 For those of you who do know, do the same. Okay, Yeah, 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:14.600 because we have new evidence, yeah, that we're gonna reveal 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:19.880 and the controvertible evidence of exactly who carried out these murders, 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.360 and the only people who have it is us, because 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:24.240 we're gonna make it up and you'll find out in 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:28.240 thirty five issue minutes or forty apparently to Stephie misson 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.440 history class in an episode on Lizzie boardon if this floats, 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.159 your boat goes into that one too. Yeah, I should 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.359 point out to the very first thing we said. We 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:40.159 told Jerry were doing Lizzie Board, and she said lesbian. Yeah, 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:44.080 and we said maybe that's one of the theories. Yeah, 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.039 this will all figure in. We're just teasing, teasing, like crazy. 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:54.480 All right. So the morning of August, Fall River, Massachusetts. Ah, 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.520 very cute town, by the way, I'm sure you mean 0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:59.560 I visited recently. Who did you go to the house? 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.880 Why else would you go there? That's about it? Yeah, 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.000 that was on your death tour, your murder tour. Um. 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:09.800 But in like I said, it was over a hundred 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.599 degrees fare height on August four, really really hot for 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.200 that area. And at about ten I think about ten 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:21.000 forty five am, wasn't it. Yeah, about ten forty five 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.560 the first murder, No, the father coming home? Oh yeah yeah. 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.160 They placed both of these events within like thirty to 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.320 forty five minutes. That there's you know, a given take there. 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:34.400 So about ten forty five am, one Andrew Jackson Borden 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.960 returns to his home at nine two Second Street in 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:41.320 Fall River, mass and, um, the the house isn't a 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:45.800 part of town that was very popular among recent immigrants, 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:50.440 specifically Irish Catholics and Portuguese. Uh. And I believe there's 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:54.440 some Chinese immigrants there as well. It wasn't an upscale 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.640 part of town by any means, despite the fact that 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.400 Andrew Borden was an extremely well the man. Yeah, he 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.400 was worth between seven and ten million today dollars. I've 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.480 I've heard twelve let's say between seven and twelve then 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:11.880 of today dollars. That's a lot of dough and also 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.719 a good reason to kill somebody. Yeah. Um, and he 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.200 despite having a lot of dough, he lived in one 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.440 of the lower rent sections of town. Um. His house 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.119 did not have indoor plumbing, which was kind of odd 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.920 by this time for that area. Um. Apparently many of 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.719 the people who were far far worse off than his 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.840 family financially head indoor plumbing. He did not. He also 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.440 didn't have any kind of electric lighting. Instead he used 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:42.240 kerostene lamps. And uh, he kept doors locked. He was 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:46.240 very afraid of being robbed. Yeah, let's cover this bit 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.880 real quick. I think we should read this. Um. There's 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:52.599 a lady named Angela Carter who wrote about the case. 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.719 She actually factored into our our fairy Tales episode. She 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:01.600 was the feminist rewrote fairy Tale else Well, what was 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.760 that Neil Jordan's take on a little ride ride and 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:08.960 her hood? Yeah, I remember she wrote the same lady. 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.680 So she said the house was originally a two family 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.400 home and they converted it to a single family home, 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.119 but didn't take a lot of time, apparently, just knocked 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.840 down some walls through in a staircase and it ended 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.920 up being a weird house because of that. And she 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:28.240 describes it as uh this way a house full of 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.480 locked doors that open only into other rooms, with other 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.880 locked doors for upstairs and downstairs. All the rooms led 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.120 in and out of one another, like a maze and 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:40.240 a bad dream. It is a house without passages. There 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:41.840 is no part of the house that has not been 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:46.480 marked as some inmates personal territory inmate very nice. It 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.320 is a house with no shared no common spaces between 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.640 one room and the next. It is a house of 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.960 privacies sealed as close as if they had been sealed 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:59.000 with wax on a legal document. Creepy, no hallways or 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.240 anything weird. No each room led into the next, and 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:06.480 in fact, Lizzie's bedroom led right into her sister Emma's 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.120 bedroom too. For Emma to go to bed, she would 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.680 have had to go through Lizzie's bedroom um and then 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:17.280 her her stepmother and father's bedroom was behind hers. But 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.000 it was sealed off by a locked door and access 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.960 through staircase that only your father used that you could 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.840 get to only with the key. Yeah, And to go 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:27.320 up and down the stairs, they had to go through 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.800 their parents bedroom, right, Yes, but they didn't do that. 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.920 That was it was off limits. It was locked. They 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.000 just jumped out the second story window. No, there was 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.200 a front staircase. They actually built a second staircase so 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.760 that her there there's parents could come and go to 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.280 their room without having to go through Lizzie's room. So 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.839 for all intentsive purposes, with this locked door, it was 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.559 a wall that sealed off their parents room from there. Yes. 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.000 And when we say parents, uh, this is a a stepmother. 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:58.320 Lizzie was born Um to Sarah Morse and her father 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:02.600 in eighteen sixty third child. Um had an older sister 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.400 named Emma, ten years older second daughter named Alice, who 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.160 died when Lizzie was two. Yes, she had She died 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.640 from hydra and cephili. You could just make up anything 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.480 back then, something believable, you know. Uh. And then her 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.080 mother died in eighteen sixty three when she was just 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:24.920 two of uterine congestion. And then when Lizzie turned right 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:29.400 before she turned five. He remarried to Abby Gray, who 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.839 the daughters were in their thirties by the time the 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:37.600 murder took place unmarried at Spinster's Uh, and never seemed 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.000 like they had a great relationship with Abby. They didn't, 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:45.120 but they both adored their father, and um he he 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:49.160 personally appreciated that for his benefit. They referred to her 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.800 as mother, and they did for decades until the time, 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.000 which we'll get to um, but they they The reason 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:59.839 that um Andrew Borden kept the house locked all the 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.120 time was because a couple of years before there had 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.760 been a burglary where some mysterious burglar had come in 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.240 and made off with a hundred dollars and some trolley 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.960 tickets and some jewelry. I think and Uh it was 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.520 basically pretty well known around town that it was Lizzie 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:17.400 who had done it. It sounds like an inside job. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.800 She robbed her own father rather than accused his daughter 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:26.160 of this extraordinarily scandalous behavior. At the time, Um he 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:30.040 just locked everything and all doors were locked all the time. 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.200 UM and he kept a key to his room on 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:36.840 the mantel, basically daring anybody to even try it, because 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.480 he would know what happened, because the only way you 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.199 could get in was through this key. The only way 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:43.360 to get to the key would be to have a 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.920 key to the outside doors. We say all this to 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.960 say that when Andrew um Borden came back home that day, 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.439 on August four, that morning, uh, he was locked out 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.959 of his own house, and he had to be led 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.280 in by the maid whose name was Bridget, but who 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.920 Emma and Lizzie called Maggie because they had had another 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.080 maiden named Maggie, and they decided that they just we're 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:09.520 going to call this one Maggie too. That sounds like, um, 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.720 do you watch the show another period? Uh? It's great. 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:17.000 It's Comedy Central, basically a reality TV spoof of like 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:21.920 Downton Abbey and um the two lead Natasha Giro and 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.719 uh oh, I can't remember her name from Garfunkle on 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.440 notes the blonde she does the she's the other. I 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.880 think they co created the series. But they're just these 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.120 rich girls who would like they renamed one of the 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:38.600 maid's chair. Check this out. How have I not even 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.600 heard of this? I don't know, man, It's really funny. 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.800 It's got a huge, great cast, big fan h have 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.520 you seen Anthony jes Nick special in Netflix yet Oh no, dude, 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.360 I love that guy though. It's really great. Yeah, it's 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.640 so so awful but wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, Andrew 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:56.840 Borden gets let back into his own house. Yes not 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.920 Anthony jes Nick no, um, and he uh, he gets 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:05.199 let back in by the maid and he decides he's 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:07.160 going to lay down for a little while on the couch. Right. 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.080 Apparently the whole family was under the weather, including the maid, um, 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.760 because they have been eating the same mutton for like 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:19.200 five days. Mutton's gross to begin with. Five day old 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.880 mutton that had been stored in the heat in an 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.000 ice box outdoors is not just gross, it's really bad 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:27.960 for you. So the whole family had basically come down 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.480 to varying degrees of um food poisoning, apparently so much 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.600 so that Mrs Borden Abbey Borden had gone to talk 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.120 to the doctor the day before the murders and said, 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.280 I think we're being poisoned by one of my husband's 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:46.280 business rivals or my stepdaughter, right, you know something like that. Yeah, 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:48.720 that's not all the weirdness. It was going on um 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.800 in the in the months and weeks before the murders. Uh, 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:55.240 there was a lot of uh not strange, but a 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.920 lot of financial goings on that kind of raised the 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:03.600 ire of the daughters. Um. Notably, Andrews started uh being 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.160 fairly generous with other members of the family, giving away 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:11.240 properties and things, uh, including to Abbey. He gave her 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.439 a house that she let her sister live in. His 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:16.320 sister was in big trouble, so he helped her out. Yeah, 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:22.040 so he's got money. His daughters are like, um. Uh, 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:24.960 so he said, you know what, I'll give you each 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.880 a property as well for a dollar and you're you're welcome. 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.640 And they ended up reselling that back to Dad for 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:36.000 cash later, which was kind of jerky. Yeah. Well it 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:37.599 was a rental property, and he had a bunch of 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:41.720 rental properties, and apparently his miserliness was very well known. Um. 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:46.559 He also directed some mills right and Fall Rivers incredibly 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.200 famous for its mills. It was it's a huge mill town. 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.120 So he knew that if you worked in the mills 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.319 and rented at home from him or a room from 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.760 even he knew if you got a raise, and if 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.520 you got a raise, he would raise your rent. So 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:02.800 this is a rental property, one of his renal properties 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:04.560 that he sold to his daughters so that they could 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.040 have rental income. Apparently they were they didn't feel like 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:08.760 doing that, so they just sold it back to him 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:16.000 for like I think increase not bad for doing nothing. Uh. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.680 The other thing that happened in the um actually the 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:22.880 night before the murderer is there uncle John John Vinnegum Morris, 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:27.040 who was there decease mother's brother. He came a Colling 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.480 uh to speak about some business with Andrew and Um, 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:34.200 there's a lot of speculation on what was going on here. 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.320 Basically they think that it just ramped up a tent 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.960 situation even more like he probably had his hand out 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.120 that was maybe. I think it was fairly um common 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:48.040 for him to come by, and I think he was also. 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.320 I don't think he was supplicant to Andrew Borden. I 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.280 think they had business together a lot. Well, Lizzie didn't 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:58.040 like him, so I that's news to me too. Yeah. 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.200 She she apparently didn't even speak to him, she said 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.640 at the trial while he was there, right like when 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:04.840 he came to visit and stay the night, she hadn't 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.440 spoken to him the whole time. When he came and 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.480 then spent the night and then left the next morning. 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.000 Because it's very important. He was not in the house 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.440 when Andrew Borden came back into the house, right, Yeah, 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.800 and she never called him uncle John, which is the 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:23.000 dead giveaway if you love your uncle. Yeah, I I 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.040 just I I didn't realize there was animosity between the two. 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:28.600 I don't know that there necessarily was. Here's one of 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.160 the problems that we're going to run into it over 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.320 and over again. And it's also one of the reasons 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.960 why Lizzie Borden's legend has remained alive for so long. Like, 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:41.240 we have a propensity to take very complex, complicated people 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.720 and they're very complex complicated relationships with one another and 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.800 boil them down into caricatures that we can understand and 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.520 easily explain. And so yeah, so over the century or so, 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.720 we've done the same thing to Lizzie Borden case. So 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.160 it's really easy to speculate on and it's also easy 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.520 to interpret little things one way or the other, which 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:02.680 also makes the whole thing a lot of fun. Yeah, 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.240 no one, everyone loves a cold case. Yeah, alright, so 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:07.520 let's take a break and uh, we'll get back to 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:31.360 some of the nitty gritty deats right after this. So, Chuck, 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:35.200 you're saying that the family it was tense in the house. 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.080 To be certain, it sounds like it was always tense, 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.440 but notably tense months leading up to the murders. Yeah, 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:46.000 And apparently both Emma and Lizzie took off for several 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.720 weeks right before the murders. When they came back, Lizzie 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.600 didn't even come back to the house. She rented a 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:54.200 room for a few days, I guess, to ease herself 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.120 back into having to live in this house again, like 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.960 a halfway house kind of that's weird, maybe three quarters 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.880 to the way house. And she, um, she and Emma 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:08.200 both stopped calling Mrs Borden mother all of a sudden 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:12.160 around the time that um, their father had given the house, 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.399 that extra house to her right, her sister was living in. 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.399 They started calling her Mrs Borden, including to her face. 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.440 That's pretty chilly, right, So that's tense. Like you say, 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:26.439 Uncle John Morris might have increased this tension. And the 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:31.760 house was very very chilly, civilly cordial to an extent, 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.640 but just it was a house full of adults who 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.359 were not getting along and and like you said, probably 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.679 hadn't been for a while. Yeah. Then there was a 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:44.679 matter of in June two, um Andrew, the father killed 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.680 a bunch of pigeons in the barn outside the house 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.560 to make pigeon while so Abby could make a pigeon pie, right, 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.359 And supposedly Lizzie kind of thought of these pigeons as 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:58.159 her pets. So uh, that would not have been a 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.800 very cool thing to do if you know your daughter 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:03.639 loved these pigeons, So I'm in the mood for pigeon 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.359 ply Yeah. There. He apparently also defended his actions by 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.600 saying that he was worried about intruders because local boys 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.359 used to like to come let themselves into their barn 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.680 and hang out with these pigeons and play with them. 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:19.880 So he solved two problems dinner and boys coming over 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.920 by just killing Lizzie's pigeons. That's right. And she also 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.800 beyond just liking these pigeons, she was also a huge 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.639 animal lover. She left a lot of money to it 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:33.280 animal rights group, and so I mean she probably would 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.200 have taken this fairly hard. On the flip side, though, 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.119 so her father just that characters caricature thing I was 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.960 talking about her father's painted is like this Ebenezer Scrooge type, 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:47.280 super mis early typefisted. He definitely was that. But it's 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.640 very easy to extend this idea that he and Lizzie 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:54.760 hated each other, and that's absolutely not true. They both 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:58.080 Lizzie and Emma apparently very much loved their father, and 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.879 their father loved them. As my e fact, he wore 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.359 a pinky ring that Lizzie gave him when he was 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.320 when she was like fifteen, and he'd warn it every day, 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.720 never took it off to like each other a lot. 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.880 Only jewelry ever wore. It was like there was definite 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.720 affection there that often gets overlooked when you're just kind 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.680 of painting this thing in broad strokes. You know. Yeah, 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:20.399 But like you said, he wasn't beloved in the town 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.840 because if you ask me if you have money and 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.520 you're a tight wad, that's like the worst thing it is. 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.840 Does he have money, be generous, That's what I say. Sure, 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.879 you know, pick up checks, be generous with your friends. 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.919 If you have dough and your I don't know, I can, 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:39.800 it's not gonna make any friends. Let's just say that 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.760 it's true. And it didn't in his case. So, um, also, 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.080 if you think about it, it is it reveals a 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.199 lot psychologically that the whole family has been eating the 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.880 same mutton for five days and the first thing that 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.200 Mrs Borden thinks of is that their milk is being 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.280 poisoned by one of her husband's business rivals. That's where 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.680 her mind went exactly. So there's a I mean, yeah, 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.560 it's it's not just inside this house the tension. It's 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.920 also coming from outside a little bit as well. Yeah, 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:08.840 and uh, I guess we'll go ahead and point out 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:13.600 if you have the the circumstantial evidence surrounding Lizzie. So 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.159 one of the things was in the days before the murderer, 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.760 she was trying to uh, she'd been seen trying to 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:24.240 buy a poisonous prussic acid. She said she yeah, she 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:28.520 said she wanted it to clean things. But other people 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.040 and the trial said maybe she was trying to poison them. 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:35.320 Although autopsies revealed no poison in the bodies, no poison 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.120 in the milk, no, but the prosecutors wanted to use 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:42.000 that to to suggest that she had murder on her mind. Inadmissible. 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.520 It was ruled and admissible because they figured it would 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.359 be too inflammatory, and it was entirely possible that she 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:50.119 really did want to clean this seal skin coat with 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.520 that stuff. All right, what else? This the dress? Things 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.200 pretty damning well, hold on, before we get any further 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.240 into that, let's let's let's talk about the actual murders. 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.280 You're ready. So it's August fourth. Her father has just 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:04.640 come back in. He's laying down on the sofa, right, 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:09.800 and he goes to sleep and he never wakes up. 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.239 That's the reason he never wakes up is because, like 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:17.040 you said, he got hit from behind and above about 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:21.080 eleven times with an axe and hit and about the 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.880 same area, so that basically his face was cut clean 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:29.000 away into nothingness. Um. Probably a hatchet, not an X. Yeah, yeah, 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:32.200 you're right, I'm sorry, I hatchet. Um. And at about 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:36.399 eleven ten, Bridget was upstairs sleeping because again she's been 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.520 throwing up from the mutton um. When she gets roused 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:43.280 by Lizzie calling from downstairs saying, hurry, something's happened. She 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.800 comes downstairs and she says someone's coming and killed father. 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.879 So now this alert has just gone out. The first 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.000 body has been discovered. Andrew Borden who's still bleeding right, 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:57.720 and his face is hacked away. It's pretty grotesque. You 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.359 can see the picture online. Yeah, so Bridget run across 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:02.960 the street to the doctor to get him. Uh, comes 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.080 back with him and they say, where's your where's your mother? 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:10.720 She's like stepmother. They're like, where's your stepmother? And she says, uh, 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.080 somebody came with a note or something like that. I 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.320 think she went to go visit a sick friend who 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:19.159 knows and um. Then she goes, well, actually, I think 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:21.120 I heard her come back in. Why don't you guys 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:25.560 go look upstairs? And Bridget is like, I'm not looking upstairs. 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:27.280 There's a dead body here. How do we know there's 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:29.800 not another another dead body? So a neighbor lady and 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:33.879 Bridget goes upstairs and they see from the staircase into 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:36.600 the bedroom. It's really cool. When you go on the 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.280 tour of the house, you can stand where they stood 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:42.159 and see exactly what they would have seen. And there's 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:45.320 Mrs borden All I think two forty pounds of her 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:47.760 lay down on the floor with the back of her 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:52.160 head just split wide open with something like eighteen blows 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:56.159 and again thirteen of them have been um have just 0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:59.400 completely crushed her skull. So now there's two dead bodies. 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.280 And if actually they are dragged into the dining room 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:08.159