1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: All right, everybody, this is going to creep you out 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: a little bit because this episode is about murder, a 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: very famous murder. This goes back to Jeez. I don't 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: know why I rereleased it on New Year's Eve, but 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: we did from December. This is all about that famous 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: lady and her famous acts, how Lizzie Borden worked. It's 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: pretty grizzly, So warning about the content right now. Welcome 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: to stuff you should know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's 10 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: Charles wry And and Jerry's back. Wow. Wow, Wow, look 11 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: at that fine looking lady over there. How's it going, Jerry? 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: She gave us it's just like old times. Yeah, Nol 13 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: was just quietly weeping outside. He is, you know, like 14 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: that out side Noel. He's peaking in her little portal window, 15 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: scratching at it. The stint of Noel a k. The 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: rain of terror is over done. Yes, has been deposed 17 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: by Jerry. Yeah, so now it's not Noel sitting there 18 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: or nobody sitting there, which happened more times than I 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: was comfortable with, at least four. Yeah, Jerry's like, wait 20 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: a minute, that we can do that. Yeah, I'm out 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: of here. Yeah, so long Jerry. So welcome back, Jerry. 22 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: And uh, we've already said congratulations on little Inez, but 23 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: who just keeps getting cuter and cuter. Yep, I know 24 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: things are going great, so we're happy to have you back. 25 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: And Lily neez, you're being very quiet. Just stay that way. 26 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: She's just rocking in her little swing. Yeah. Great. Would 27 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: that be having babies in here? Yeah? If they shut up, 28 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't that be cool? For sure? Good energy. I would 29 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: just feel bad for him because it gets pretty gamey 30 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: in here. Yeah, even after like fifteen minutes, a couple 31 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: of hours. I kind of stink today. Actually, I was 32 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: going to apologize. Yeah, I didn't use to you sutorant 33 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: uh the last time I showered when just like two 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: days ago. It's fantastic. I know, it's terrible. I dressed up. Man, 35 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: that's a great choke that. Yeah, I'm gonna take care 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:16,119 Speaker 1: of that tonight. That explains the sheen on your face. Okay, 37 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: so we're here, Jerry's here, I smell. Let's do it. 38 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: Since you do smell, Chuck, I have to say, at least, 39 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: at the very least I'm grateful that we don't happen 40 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: to be in Fall River, Massachusetts on the morning of Augusto, 41 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: because that morning was particularly particularly hot, unseasonably hot. It 42 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: was over a hundred degrees fahrenheit by the time noon 43 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: rolled around. And that figures heavily in the case of 44 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden and her forty and forty one wax, which 45 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: we're more like eighteen or nineteen and eleven. Yes, are you? 46 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: You were familiar with Lizie Boyd. Everybody knows Lizzie Borden, right, Yeah, 47 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden took an X, gave her mother forty wax. 48 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: When she found what she had done, she gave her 49 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: father forty one. Yeah. Wrong, there was no ax. Wasn't 50 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: a real mother, wasn't a real mother, There wasn't so 51 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: all about that was just made up. They think to 52 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: sell newspapers. Yes, yeah, they think it's a children's nursery 53 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: rhyme these days, little sicko children. Um, but but they 54 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: do think that it was possibly some newspaper hawker, a 55 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: newsy if you watch Disney movies, Um, who came up 56 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: with it and it just took off? We should change 57 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: it to Lizzie Borden may or may not have taken 58 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: a hatchet given her stepmother eighteen or nineteen wax thirteen 59 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: of them crushed her skull when she saw what she 60 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: had done. Her father got home, she gave him eleven 61 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: or so and then got away. Yeah it scot free. 62 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: That doesn't have the same ring. No, that doesn't. But 63 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: you basically did just sum it up pretty well, pretty accurately, Chuck. 64 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: So for those of you who don't know who Lizie 65 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: Borden is, just settled down, buckling, prepare for a wild ride. 66 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: For those of you who do know, do the same. Okay, Yeah, 67 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: because we have new evidence, yeah, that we're gonna reveal 68 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: and the controvertible evidence of exactly who carried out these murders, 69 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: and the only people who have it is us, because 70 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna make it up and you'll find out in 71 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: thirty five issue minutes or forty apparently to Stephie misson 72 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: history class in an episode on Lizzie boardon if this floats, 73 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: your boat goes into that one too. Yeah, I should 74 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: point out to the very first thing we said. We 75 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: told Jerry were doing Lizzie Board, and she said lesbian. Yeah, 76 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: and we said maybe that's one of the theories. Yeah, 77 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: this will all figure in. We're just teasing, teasing, like crazy. 78 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: All right. So the morning of August, Fall River, Massachusetts. Ah, 79 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: very cute town, by the way, I'm sure you mean 80 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: I visited recently. Who did you go to the house? 81 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: Why else would you go there? That's about it? Yeah, 82 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: that was on your death tour, your murder tour. Um. 83 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: But in like I said, it was over a hundred 84 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: degrees fare height on August four, really really hot for 85 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: that area. And at about ten I think about ten 86 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: forty five am, wasn't it. Yeah, about ten forty five 87 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: the first murder, No, the father coming home? Oh yeah yeah. 88 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: They placed both of these events within like thirty to 89 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: forty five minutes. That there's you know, a given take there. 90 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: So about ten forty five am, one Andrew Jackson Borden 91 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: returns to his home at nine two Second Street in 92 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: Fall River, mass and, um, the the house isn't a 93 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: part of town that was very popular among recent immigrants, 94 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: specifically Irish Catholics and Portuguese. Uh. And I believe there's 95 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: some Chinese immigrants there as well. It wasn't an upscale 96 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: part of town by any means, despite the fact that 97 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: Andrew Borden was an extremely well the man. Yeah, he 98 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: was worth between seven and ten million today dollars. I've 99 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: I've heard twelve let's say between seven and twelve then 100 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: of today dollars. That's a lot of dough and also 101 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: a good reason to kill somebody. Yeah. Um, and he 102 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: despite having a lot of dough, he lived in one 103 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: of the lower rent sections of town. Um. His house 104 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,119 Speaker 1: did not have indoor plumbing, which was kind of odd 105 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: by this time for that area. Um. Apparently many of 106 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: the people who were far far worse off than his 107 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: family financially head indoor plumbing. He did not. He also 108 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: didn't have any kind of electric lighting. Instead he used 109 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: kerostene lamps. And uh, he kept doors locked. He was 110 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: very afraid of being robbed. Yeah, let's cover this bit 111 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: real quick. I think we should read this. Um. There's 112 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: a lady named Angela Carter who wrote about the case. 113 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: She actually factored into our our fairy Tales episode. She 114 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: was the feminist rewrote fairy Tale else Well, what was 115 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: that Neil Jordan's take on a little ride ride and 116 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: her hood? Yeah, I remember she wrote the same lady. 117 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: So she said the house was originally a two family 118 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: home and they converted it to a single family home, 119 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,119 Speaker 1: but didn't take a lot of time, apparently, just knocked 120 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: down some walls through in a staircase and it ended 121 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: up being a weird house because of that. And she 122 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: describes it as uh this way a house full of 123 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: locked doors that open only into other rooms, with other 124 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: locked doors for upstairs and downstairs. All the rooms led 125 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: in and out of one another, like a maze and 126 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: a bad dream. It is a house without passages. There 127 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: is no part of the house that has not been 128 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: marked as some inmates personal territory inmate very nice. It 129 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: is a house with no shared no common spaces between 130 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: one room and the next. It is a house of 131 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: privacies sealed as close as if they had been sealed 132 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: with wax on a legal document. Creepy, no hallways or 133 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: anything weird. No each room led into the next, and 134 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: in fact, Lizzie's bedroom led right into her sister Emma's 135 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: bedroom too. For Emma to go to bed, she would 136 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: have had to go through Lizzie's bedroom um and then 137 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: her her stepmother and father's bedroom was behind hers. But 138 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: it was sealed off by a locked door and access 139 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: through staircase that only your father used that you could 140 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: get to only with the key. Yeah, And to go 141 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: up and down the stairs, they had to go through 142 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: their parents bedroom, right, Yes, but they didn't do that. 143 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: That was it was off limits. It was locked. They 144 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: just jumped out the second story window. No, there was 145 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: a front staircase. They actually built a second staircase so 146 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: that her there there's parents could come and go to 147 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: their room without having to go through Lizzie's room. So 148 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 1: for all intentsive purposes, with this locked door, it was 149 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: a wall that sealed off their parents room from there. Yes. 150 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: And when we say parents, uh, this is a a stepmother. 151 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: Lizzie was born Um to Sarah Morse and her father 152 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty third child. Um had an older sister 153 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: named Emma, ten years older second daughter named Alice, who 154 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: died when Lizzie was two. Yes, she had She died 155 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: from hydra and cephili. You could just make up anything 156 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: back then, something believable, you know. Uh. And then her 157 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: mother died in eighteen sixty three when she was just 158 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: two of uterine congestion. And then when Lizzie turned right 159 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: before she turned five. He remarried to Abby Gray, who 160 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 1: the daughters were in their thirties by the time the 161 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: murder took place unmarried at Spinster's Uh, and never seemed 162 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: like they had a great relationship with Abby. They didn't, 163 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: but they both adored their father, and um he he 164 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: personally appreciated that for his benefit. They referred to her 165 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: as mother, and they did for decades until the time, 166 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: which we'll get to um, but they they The reason 167 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: that um Andrew Borden kept the house locked all the 168 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: time was because a couple of years before there had 169 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: been a burglary where some mysterious burglar had come in 170 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: and made off with a hundred dollars and some trolley 171 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: tickets and some jewelry. I think and Uh it was 172 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: basically pretty well known around town that it was Lizzie 173 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: who had done it. It sounds like an inside job. 174 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: She robbed her own father rather than accused his daughter 175 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: of this extraordinarily scandalous behavior. At the time, Um he 176 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: just locked everything and all doors were locked all the time. 177 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: UM and he kept a key to his room on 178 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: the mantel, basically daring anybody to even try it, because 179 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: he would know what happened, because the only way you 180 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 1: could get in was through this key. The only way 181 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: to get to the key would be to have a 182 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: key to the outside doors. We say all this to 183 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: say that when Andrew um Borden came back home that day, 184 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: on August four, that morning, uh, he was locked out 185 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: of his own house, and he had to be led 186 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: in by the maid whose name was Bridget, but who 187 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: Emma and Lizzie called Maggie because they had had another 188 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: maiden named Maggie, and they decided that they just we're 189 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: going to call this one Maggie too. That sounds like, um, 190 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: do you watch the show another period? Uh? It's great. 191 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: It's Comedy Central, basically a reality TV spoof of like 192 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: Downton Abbey and um the two lead Natasha Giro and 193 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: uh oh, I can't remember her name from Garfunkle on 194 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: notes the blonde she does the she's the other. I 195 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: think they co created the series. But they're just these 196 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: rich girls who would like they renamed one of the 197 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: maid's chair. Check this out. How have I not even 198 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: heard of this? I don't know, man, It's really funny. 199 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: It's got a huge, great cast, big fan h have 200 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: you seen Anthony jes Nick special in Netflix yet Oh no, dude, 201 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: I love that guy though. It's really great. Yeah, it's 202 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: so so awful but wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, Andrew 203 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: Borden gets let back into his own house. Yes not 204 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: Anthony jes Nick no, um, and he uh, he gets 205 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: let back in by the maid and he decides he's 206 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: going to lay down for a little while on the couch. Right. 207 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: Apparently the whole family was under the weather, including the maid, um, 208 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: because they have been eating the same mutton for like 209 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: five days. Mutton's gross to begin with. Five day old 210 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: mutton that had been stored in the heat in an 211 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: ice box outdoors is not just gross, it's really bad 212 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: for you. So the whole family had basically come down 213 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: to varying degrees of um food poisoning, apparently so much 214 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: so that Mrs Borden Abbey Borden had gone to talk 215 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: to the doctor the day before the murders and said, 216 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: I think we're being poisoned by one of my husband's 217 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: business rivals or my stepdaughter, right, you know something like that. Yeah, 218 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: that's not all the weirdness. It was going on um 219 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: in the in the months and weeks before the murders. Uh, 220 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: there was a lot of uh not strange, but a 221 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: lot of financial goings on that kind of raised the 222 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: ire of the daughters. Um. Notably, Andrews started uh being 223 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: fairly generous with other members of the family, giving away 224 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: properties and things, uh, including to Abbey. He gave her 225 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: a house that she let her sister live in. His 226 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: sister was in big trouble, so he helped her out. Yeah, 227 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: so he's got money. His daughters are like, um. Uh, 228 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: so he said, you know what, I'll give you each 229 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: a property as well for a dollar and you're you're welcome. 230 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: And they ended up reselling that back to Dad for 231 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: cash later, which was kind of jerky. Yeah. Well it 232 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,599 Speaker 1: was a rental property, and he had a bunch of 233 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: rental properties, and apparently his miserliness was very well known. Um. 234 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: He also directed some mills right and Fall Rivers incredibly 235 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: famous for its mills. It was it's a huge mill town. 236 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: So he knew that if you worked in the mills 237 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: and rented at home from him or a room from 238 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: even he knew if you got a raise, and if 239 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: you got a raise, he would raise your rent. So 240 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: this is a rental property, one of his renal properties 241 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: that he sold to his daughters so that they could 242 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: have rental income. Apparently they were they didn't feel like 243 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: doing that, so they just sold it back to him 244 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: for like I think increase not bad for doing nothing. Uh. 245 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: The other thing that happened in the um actually the 246 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: night before the murderer is there uncle John John Vinnegum Morris, 247 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: who was there decease mother's brother. He came a Colling 248 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: uh to speak about some business with Andrew and Um, 249 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: there's a lot of speculation on what was going on here. 250 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: Basically they think that it just ramped up a tent 251 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: situation even more like he probably had his hand out 252 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: that was maybe. I think it was fairly um common 253 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: for him to come by, and I think he was also. 254 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: I don't think he was supplicant to Andrew Borden. I 255 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: think they had business together a lot. Well, Lizzie didn't 256 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: like him, so I that's news to me too. Yeah. 257 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: She she apparently didn't even speak to him, she said 258 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: at the trial while he was there, right like when 259 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: he came to visit and stay the night, she hadn't 260 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: spoken to him the whole time. When he came and 261 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: then spent the night and then left the next morning. 262 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: Because it's very important. He was not in the house 263 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: when Andrew Borden came back into the house, right, Yeah, 264 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: and she never called him uncle John, which is the 265 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: dead giveaway if you love your uncle. Yeah, I I 266 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: just I I didn't realize there was animosity between the two. 267 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: I don't know that there necessarily was. Here's one of 268 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: the problems that we're going to run into it over 269 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: and over again. And it's also one of the reasons 270 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: why Lizzie Borden's legend has remained alive for so long. Like, 271 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: we have a propensity to take very complex, complicated people 272 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: and they're very complex complicated relationships with one another and 273 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: boil them down into caricatures that we can understand and 274 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: easily explain. And so yeah, so over the century or so, 275 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: we've done the same thing to Lizzie Borden case. So 276 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: it's really easy to speculate on and it's also easy 277 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: to interpret little things one way or the other, which 278 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: also makes the whole thing a lot of fun. Yeah, 279 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: no one, everyone loves a cold case. Yeah, alright, so 280 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: let's take a break and uh, we'll get back to 281 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: some of the nitty gritty deats right after this. So, Chuck, 282 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: you're saying that the family it was tense in the house. 283 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: To be certain, it sounds like it was always tense, 284 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: but notably tense months leading up to the murders. Yeah, 285 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: And apparently both Emma and Lizzie took off for several 286 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: weeks right before the murders. When they came back, Lizzie 287 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: didn't even come back to the house. She rented a 288 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: room for a few days, I guess, to ease herself 289 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: back into having to live in this house again, like 290 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: a halfway house kind of that's weird, maybe three quarters 291 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: to the way house. And she, um, she and Emma 292 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: both stopped calling Mrs Borden mother all of a sudden 293 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: around the time that um, their father had given the house, 294 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: that extra house to her right, her sister was living in. 295 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: They started calling her Mrs Borden, including to her face. 296 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: That's pretty chilly, right, So that's tense. Like you say, 297 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: Uncle John Morris might have increased this tension. And the 298 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: house was very very chilly, civilly cordial to an extent, 299 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: but just it was a house full of adults who 300 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: were not getting along and and like you said, probably 301 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 1: hadn't been for a while. Yeah. Then there was a 302 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: matter of in June two, um Andrew, the father killed 303 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: a bunch of pigeons in the barn outside the house 304 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: to make pigeon while so Abby could make a pigeon pie, right, 305 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: And supposedly Lizzie kind of thought of these pigeons as 306 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: her pets. So uh, that would not have been a 307 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: very cool thing to do if you know your daughter 308 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: loved these pigeons, So I'm in the mood for pigeon 309 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: ply Yeah. There. He apparently also defended his actions by 310 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: saying that he was worried about intruders because local boys 311 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: used to like to come let themselves into their barn 312 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: and hang out with these pigeons and play with them. 313 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: So he solved two problems dinner and boys coming over 314 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: by just killing Lizzie's pigeons. That's right. And she also 315 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: beyond just liking these pigeons, she was also a huge 316 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: animal lover. She left a lot of money to it 317 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: animal rights group, and so I mean she probably would 318 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: have taken this fairly hard. On the flip side, though, 319 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: so her father just that characters caricature thing I was 320 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: talking about her father's painted is like this Ebenezer Scrooge type, 321 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: super mis early typefisted. He definitely was that. But it's 322 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: very easy to extend this idea that he and Lizzie 323 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: hated each other, and that's absolutely not true. They both 324 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: Lizzie and Emma apparently very much loved their father, and 325 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: their father loved them. As my e fact, he wore 326 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: a pinky ring that Lizzie gave him when he was 327 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: when she was like fifteen, and he'd warn it every day, 328 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: never took it off to like each other a lot. 329 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: Only jewelry ever wore. It was like there was definite 330 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: affection there that often gets overlooked when you're just kind 331 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: of painting this thing in broad strokes. You know. Yeah, 332 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: But like you said, he wasn't beloved in the town 333 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: because if you ask me if you have money and 334 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: you're a tight wad, that's like the worst thing it is. 335 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: Does he have money, be generous, That's what I say. Sure, 336 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: you know, pick up checks, be generous with your friends. 337 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: If you have dough and your I don't know, I can, 338 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: it's not gonna make any friends. Let's just say that 339 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: it's true. And it didn't in his case. So, um, also, 340 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: if you think about it, it is it reveals a 341 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: lot psychologically that the whole family has been eating the 342 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: same mutton for five days and the first thing that 343 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: Mrs Borden thinks of is that their milk is being 344 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: poisoned by one of her husband's business rivals. That's where 345 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: her mind went exactly. So there's a I mean, yeah, 346 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: it's it's not just inside this house the tension. It's 347 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: also coming from outside a little bit as well. Yeah, 348 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: and uh, I guess we'll go ahead and point out 349 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: if you have the the circumstantial evidence surrounding Lizzie. So 350 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: one of the things was in the days before the murderer, 351 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: she was trying to uh, she'd been seen trying to 352 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: buy a poisonous prussic acid. She said she yeah, she 353 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: said she wanted it to clean things. But other people 354 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: and the trial said maybe she was trying to poison them. 355 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: Although autopsies revealed no poison in the bodies, no poison 356 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: in the milk, no, but the prosecutors wanted to use 357 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: that to to suggest that she had murder on her mind. Inadmissible. 358 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: It was ruled and admissible because they figured it would 359 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: be too inflammatory, and it was entirely possible that she 360 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: really did want to clean this seal skin coat with 361 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: that stuff. All right, what else? This the dress? Things 362 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: pretty damning well, hold on, before we get any further 363 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: into that, let's let's let's talk about the actual murders. 364 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: You're ready. So it's August fourth. Her father has just 365 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 1: come back in. He's laying down on the sofa, right, 366 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: and he goes to sleep and he never wakes up. 367 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 1: That's the reason he never wakes up is because, like 368 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: you said, he got hit from behind and above about 369 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: eleven times with an axe and hit and about the 370 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 1: same area, so that basically his face was cut clean 371 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: away into nothingness. Um. Probably a hatchet, not an X. Yeah, yeah, 372 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: you're right, I'm sorry, I hatchet. Um. And at about 373 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: eleven ten, Bridget was upstairs sleeping because again she's been 374 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: throwing up from the mutton um. When she gets roused 375 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: by Lizzie calling from downstairs saying, hurry, something's happened. She 376 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: comes downstairs and she says someone's coming and killed father. 377 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: So now this alert has just gone out. The first 378 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: body has been discovered. Andrew Borden who's still bleeding right, 379 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: and his face is hacked away. It's pretty grotesque. You 380 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: can see the picture online. Yeah, so Bridget run across 381 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: the street to the doctor to get him. Uh, comes 382 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: back with him and they say, where's your where's your mother? 383 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: She's like stepmother. They're like, where's your stepmother? And she says, uh, 384 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: somebody came with a note or something like that. I 385 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: think she went to go visit a sick friend who 386 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: knows and um. Then she goes, well, actually, I think 387 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: I heard her come back in. Why don't you guys 388 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: go look upstairs? And Bridget is like, I'm not looking upstairs. 389 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: There's a dead body here. How do we know there's 390 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: not another another dead body? So a neighbor lady and 391 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: Bridget goes upstairs and they see from the staircase into 392 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: the bedroom. It's really cool. When you go on the 393 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: tour of the house, you can stand where they stood 394 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: and see exactly what they would have seen. And there's 395 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: Mrs borden All I think two forty pounds of her 396 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: lay down on the floor with the back of her 397 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: head just split wide open with something like eighteen blows 398 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: and again thirteen of them have been um have just 399 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: completely crushed her skull. So now there's two dead bodies. 400 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: And if actually they are dragged into the dining room 401 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: where they're autopsied, and rather than be buried there before 402 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: they're buried, they're decapitated and their heads are sent to Harvard. Yes, 403 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: and then eventually buried at the foot of their graves. Yes, 404 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: like all decapitated heads exactly. So Um. Almost immediately the 405 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: cops went, uh you yeah, you're the Lizzie was the 406 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: only person in the house, right, That's right, because Bridget 407 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: was outside when her around the time that her mother 408 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: Um would have been killed. Lizzie was ironing handkerchiefs with 409 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: a little mini iron and a little mini ironing board 410 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: in the dining room. Yeah. Emma was fifteen miles away 411 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: out of town, that's right. Uncle John Morris was away 412 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: in town at the post office, I think on business 413 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: because he doesn't need stamps dot com. Right, Yeah, and 414 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: Andrew Borden was in town on his own business as well. 415 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: So Lislie was the only one in the house at 416 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: about nine thirty am, around the time when her stepmother 417 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: would have been murdered. She says that when her father 418 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: came home and laid down around the time he would 419 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: have been murdered. She wasn't in the house then, Yeah, 420 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: she said she uh went out to that barn that 421 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: she liked to hang out with the pigeons. Uh. Two, 422 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: and she was eating pears, just hanging out in the loft, 423 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: eating pears, eating pears. And the reason she was in 424 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: the loft is because she was getting led to make 425 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: sinkers to go fishing with. Yeah. But she while she 426 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: was there, she's like, I like getting here in the 427 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: hundred degree weather, especially upstairs in this loft, I'm gonna 428 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: eat some pears. So she ate some pairs minutes and 429 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: when she came back in, she discovered her father called 430 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: bridget down in the whole chain of events entered the 431 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: public record around that time. Yes, uh so we already 432 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: mentioned the prossic acid um. She was caught burning a dress. Yeah, 433 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: family friend witnessed her doing that and then later uh 434 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: gave testimony about that, and that's what led to her 435 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: being indicted for murder, that's right. And she said that 436 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: the dress was stained and that's why she was burning 437 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 1: it stained with paint though, yes, staying with paint, right, 438 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: But this is three days after the murder, all of 439 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: a sudden, she's pulling a dress out of the coal 440 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: shoot and saying, Ah, this dress is staying with paint. 441 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go ahead and burn it. So this 442 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: family friend, Alice says, I wouldn't do that if I 443 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: were you, and Lizzie said shut up you, and Alice 444 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: said okay and goes and tells the cops. Uh, So, 445 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: in the basement they found two axes, two hatchets, and 446 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: then a hatchet head that it had the handle broken off. 447 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: They suspected that it was broken off recently, and that 448 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: hatchet had um they say, looked like it had been 449 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: planted there and covered with dust and ash to make 450 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: it look like it had been there a long time. 451 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: Um basically tampered with evidence. Wise, One officer at the 452 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: trial said the handle was actually there, and we found it. 453 00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: Another officer says, no, we didn't, So who knows? Yeah, 454 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: I think they. The consensus is among historians is that 455 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: they never found this handle. Yes, but it's never explained why. 456 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: The one officer said they did. Yeah, so um that 457 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: hand that that hatchet had that they did find, though, Chuck, 458 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: they never conclusively showed that it was the murder weapon. 459 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: They just said, this is probably a pretty good stand in, right, 460 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 1: and they never found any blood or anything on it, 461 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: which that's kind of difficult if you think to completely 462 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: get a hatchet head clean totally. Yeah, right, So that's 463 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: kind of weird in a sense. They never found the 464 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: murder weapon essentially, well, they said they did. Well, yeah, sure, 465 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: the prosecution said that this was it. But again, all 466 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: suspicion is just immediately falling onto Lizzie. Uh. And there 467 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: were a number of different um hearings and inquests and 468 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: things and grand juries before she was formally indicted um 469 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: and each time apparently it looked like she was going 470 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: to get off because, despite what the cops thought at 471 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: this time, in this place and era, Victorian ladies did 472 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: not murder people with hatchets, So that in and of 473 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: itself was enough to get her off, right, or to 474 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 1: keep her from even being indicted. But each time her 475 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: friend Alice from down the street would come in and say, 476 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: I saw Lizzie Byrne addressed that had some sort of 477 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: brownish red stain all over it, and the jury or 478 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: the judge or whoever would say, ah, we think that's enough, 479 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: And so Finally it got to the point where I 480 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: think the grand jury was indicted her for three counts 481 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: of murder, right, uh, one of her stepmother, one of 482 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: her father, and then one of her stepmother and father, 483 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: which is bizarre even at the time, but she was 484 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: She faced three counts of murder, and they used the 485 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: hatchet head. That was their big case. But they had 486 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,959 Speaker 1: some real problems. Number one, if that dress had been 487 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: covered with blood, it was gone now. But number two, Emma, 488 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: her sister, said that dress actually was covered in paint. 489 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: That was just paint that had nothing to do with blood. Right. 490 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: And the big problem here is it almost goes without saying. 491 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: If somebody murdered Mrs Borden with a hatchet and then 492 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: murdered Mr. Borden with a hatchet, they would be covered 493 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: in blood twice. So what do you do? How how 494 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: could you have gotten around that? One of the theories 495 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: was that Lizzie Borden stripped down, was naked, killed, Mrs Borden, 496 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: put her clothes back on, and then when she had 497 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: the chance, took her close back off and then killed 498 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 1: her father, and then rinsed off both times and put 499 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: her clean clothes back on. That probably didn't happen, though 500 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: probably not. We need to take another break though, and 501 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: when we come back, we will wrap up what happened 502 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: in the trials and what happened afterward. Right for this, 503 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: All right, we're back. Lizzie Borden on trial in big 504 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: trouble and uh, a lot of circumstantial evidence, but no 505 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: no hard evidence at this point at the trial. No 506 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: smoking gun as they say, no, I didn't want smoking hatch, 507 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: no fingerprints, finger They didn't do any fingerprinting at this point. 508 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: Fingerprinting was new and uh, not really trustworthy, so they 509 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: didn't even bother. Well. Yeah, pretty much every step of 510 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: the um police investigation was fouled up for the To 511 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: begin with, the murders took place while almost the entire 512 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: police force was off on the annual police picnic out 513 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: of town. Um, all these neighbors and luky loose came 514 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: through the crime scene and totally messed up. But the 515 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: big thing was is forensic science wasn't really a big 516 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: It wasn't in widespread use at the time. Yeah, so 517 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: at the trial they point out a lot of incongruencies 518 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: her Her story changed a lot during the questioning, which 519 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: is a little weird. The cops went into the barn 520 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: and they said, you know, it's super hot in here. 521 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: I don't see how anyone would choose to just sit 522 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: here for twenty minutes and eat pairs. And we don't 523 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: see any footprints anywhere around, which was weird because two 524 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: workmen later testified that they had been up in that place, 525 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: um like the week before, yeah, which well, who knows 526 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: after a week what a footprint in a barn will do. Uh. 527 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: And then the day before the murders, um, Lizzie went 528 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: to her old friend Alice and said some weird things 529 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: that she felt like something bad was going to happen 530 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: to her family, almost like there was. She said, I 531 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: feel as if something were hanging over me and I 532 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: can't throw it off, and she was frightened. So this 533 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: sort of looks like she was setting up an alibi. Yeah, 534 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: she said she was worried something bad was going to 535 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: happen to her father. Yeah. That was the day before 536 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: the murders, the night before him. Right. So for the prosecution, 537 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: they were like they took two pretty big hits. One 538 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: the prussic acid the cyanide got thrown out of evidence, uh, 539 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: and then two so did Um, Lizzie's own testimony, because 540 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: the judge determined that she had been on copious amounts 541 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: of morphine at the time, and they were contradictory, and 542 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: even at their base, they weren't admissions of guilt, they 543 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: were protestations, right. So, Um, the prosecution didn't have a 544 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: lot to go on. They had almost an entirely circum 545 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: not even almost a completely circumstantial case that really had 546 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: tons and tons of holes in it. That's right. It 547 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: was a two week trial. Lizzie never took the stand herself, 548 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: and um, it was it was huge. It was the 549 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,239 Speaker 1: trial of the century. Um, she was deemed guilty. But 550 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: while the trial was taking place in her town basically, 551 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: and in her town, newspapers all over the world at 552 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: this point. So the impression I have though, is that 553 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,239 Speaker 1: out of town they had a different take on it, 554 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: that these these bumbling dummies, the yokels in Fall Fall River, Um, 555 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: we're trying to prosecut cue a woman for a crime 556 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: that clearly some maniac had had carried out, and that 557 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: they should just leave her alone. Finally, Yeah, interesting, Um, 558 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: during the trial, this helped the sensationalized aspect of it. 559 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: They actually brought in the chopped up skulls and presented 560 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: it and like it was out of a TV movie. 561 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: Lizzie saw this, Uh, swooned and fainted, which of course 562 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: is going to get some sympathy from the jury. And um, 563 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: it didn't take long. It was about ninety minutes and 564 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: the jury said not guilty. Yeah, and she got away 565 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: with it. So thinks many many people. What do you think. 566 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, here's some here's some theories. One 567 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: that she was like in a fugue state and committed 568 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: these murders. Uh. Yeah, but a fugue state that lasted 569 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: ninety minutes where she was able to conceal the murder 570 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: weapon in her own guilt and wait for a father 571 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: to come home and fall asleep. That's not a fugue 572 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: states what they say. And it could have been less 573 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: than ninety minutes. Uh, if you take the shorter side 574 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: of both ends of the murders of the time range. Uh. 575 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: One was that she was gay and that she was 576 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: having an affair with the maid. They were caught by 577 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: the stepmother. She was really super mad and so Lizzie 578 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: killed her with a candlestick and then I went and 579 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: confessed this to her father, thinking that he might understand, 580 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: and he got really mad and so they killed both 581 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: killed him. Okay, that's another theory, one that she was 582 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: abused by her father sexually and physically abused, although there's 583 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: no evidence to substantiate this. One is that the maid um. 584 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: There was a deathbed confession from the maid to her 585 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: own sister, Um, which no one knows if that's true 586 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: or not. Yeah, I mean, the maid was most likely 587 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: not a lesbian. It's entirely possible that Lizzie Borden was 588 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: because later on after the murder, she and her sister 589 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: continued to live together. They bought a mansion in the 590 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: well healed part of um Fall River, and Lizzie named 591 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 1: at Maple Croft and Um the maid eventually remarried, got married. 592 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: She just totally falls off the map for five years 593 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: and then pops up again and Butte Montana and gets 594 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: married and dies in Um. But Lizzie and her sister 595 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: lived together until nineteen o five, and then all of 596 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: a sudden, her sister moves out of the house and 597 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: they never speak again for twenty two years until they die. 598 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: And uh, it's some people say that it was because 599 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: her sister didn't improve of a relationship with this um 600 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 1: woman named Nance O'Neill. Yeah. Um, which is entirely possible. 601 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: Who knows what happened? Um. It could have been that 602 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: her sister believed she was innocent and then finally Lizzie 603 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: admitted it in nineteen o five and her sister was like, 604 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: I am done with you. Who knows. One of the 605 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 1: other theories is that William Borden, who was the illegitimate 606 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: son of Andrew and also a butcher, um, was the 607 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: the Basically he killed him because of like failed extortion attempts. 608 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: So was he proven to exist William Borton? Yeah? I 609 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: thought he was hypothetical. Is he like a real person? Uh? 610 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: And then the final two was that Emma did it 611 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: and had the perfect alibi and setting up that she 612 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: was fifteen miles away. Uh. And that uncle John did 613 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: it who was there visiting. Yeah. So basically anyone who 614 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: had anything to do closely with the family, there's a 615 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: theory that they did it, right. Yeah, And these are 616 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: all theories. Like you, if you look at the evidence, 617 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: you can I think you can basically get rid of 618 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: everybody except Lizzie. And there were some big problems with 619 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: their story to like, even if you believe she's innocent, 620 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: there's some stuff you really have to contend with. Like, 621 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: for example, she says she was in the house at 622 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: the time her stepmother would have been killed, and her 623 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: stepmother was like two d forty pounds and the police 624 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: came and they dropped a two hundred pound weight in 625 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: the place where her stepmother had fallen when she would 626 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: have been killed. And um, the cop downstairs, whose job 627 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: it was to listen to hear if you heard anything, 628 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: said it felt like the whole house shook. I'm sure, right, so, 629 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: and Lizzie's like, I didn't hear anything. That's that's kind 630 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: of a weird thing, right. Um. Then Lizzie also was 631 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: she behaved rather strangely here there, Like when the neighbor 632 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: came over, she was like, oh, Mrs Churchill, do come in. 633 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: Someone's come in and killed father, Like come in for tea. Yeah, 634 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: there's just a lot of weird stuff that she's done. 635 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: And then the dad was posed afterward on the couch. Yeah, 636 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: his favorite coat was rolled up beneath his head. Yeah, 637 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: and he had his arms folded over in his lap. 638 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: And that's just creepy. Yeah, but if you really look 639 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: at all the evidence to especially the prosecution's case, there's 640 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: no way that that jury should have convicted her. They 641 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 1: definitely did the right thing in acquitting her because they 642 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: had there was no case against her. Really, yeah, I mean, 643 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: she was little, She's like five ft one, and basically 644 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: one of the big defense points was like this, this 645 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: tiny little lady just couldn't have done this. These were 646 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:12,959 Speaker 1: like brutal, powerful, forceful blows with this hatchet, and uh, 647 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: despite I mean the fact that she has crazy guys. 648 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that one picture. I don't know, but 649 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: it definitely didn't do her any favors in history. Like 650 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: that one big photo of her, she looks like a 651 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: psycho killer. She does, you know a little bit for sure. 652 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 1: But they said that there's no way this little lady 653 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: could have done this, and that was kind of one 654 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: of their main defense points. But it didn't matter what 655 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: happened because everyone thought she did it, and she would 656 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: go to church and have people whisper about her and 657 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: kids through rocks at her windows for years and through 658 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: rotten eggs at her house and ding Dong ditch and 659 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: basically was shunned by her local town folk. Yeah, as 660 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: a murderous and even the people, all the out of 661 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: towners who came and used her as you know, to 662 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: promote their own stuff, like the Suffragettes, like men her 663 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 1: basically a hero. By the time she died, like most 664 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: people had left her. Um. And she she died a 665 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: fairly lonely old woman, despite having not spoken to her 666 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: sister in twenty two years. They died within nine days 667 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: of each other. Lizzie died first, and then Emma and 668 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: sweetly oddly weirdly, um, all of the Bordens, Lizzie, Emma, Andrew, Abby, 669 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: the original Mrs Borden uh and their sister who died 670 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: as a child, are all buried next to one another 671 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: in the family plot. Yeah, that's normal. It's not weird. 672 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: That's just how they did things, not weird. Um. She 673 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: did change her name to which I thought was you 674 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,240 Speaker 1: didn't go far enough. She changed her name to Elizabeth Borden. 675 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: I might have gone with something completely different without l 676 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: I Z even in the name. That would have been 677 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: my recommendation, maybe like Tammy Borden or something, or Tammy Smith. 678 00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you could get rid of the board and 679 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: thought about that you know. Yeah, She's like, hmm, I 680 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: want to disappear about Elizabeth Borden instead of Lizzie Board 681 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: and I'll ever suspect that I'm Lizzie Gordon. And she 682 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: was pretty young. She was sixty six and she died. Yeah, 683 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,240 Speaker 1: and her sister was like a several almost a decade 684 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,439 Speaker 1: older than um. So she died at a I guess 685 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: a respectable old age. Lizzie died young ish. Her sister 686 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: didn't even die of an illness. She fell down the 687 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: stairs supposedly with push marks in her lower back. Right, 688 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: So we've basically just given like a really like broad overview. 689 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: You can dedicate all of your spare time to this case. 690 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: It's really fascinating and there's a lot of stuff on 691 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: it on the internet too. And if you're ever in 692 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: the Providence or Boston area, like, do yourself a favor 693 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,919 Speaker 1: and go down to the Lizzie Borden house and take 694 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: the tour. It's pretty cool to stay there, right, Yeah, 695 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: it's a ben breakfast that you can stay in supposedly 696 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: haunted allegedly. Yeah, yeah, if you believe in that kind 697 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: of stuff. Wait our new evidence though, we and reveal 698 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,879 Speaker 1: it Okay, go ahead, I have none. I don't. Okay, man, 699 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 1: you scared me. I thought like you really did. After 700 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: a second, No, they'd that'd be great. I wouldn't be 701 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: sitting on that. Uh. And you can type Lizzie board 702 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 1: and all you want in the search bar. It just 703 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: turns up some lame definition of her I think on 704 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: our site. So just go look elsewhere. And since I 705 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:25,359 Speaker 1: said elsewhere, it's time for listener mail. Greetings gents and 706 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: Jerry or Knoll or empty space. Um. I've recently developed 707 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: somewhat of a novel biological effect or remember we talked 708 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: about those, uh. And it's taught me a lot about 709 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: how I did and how I should be carrying myself 710 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: in the world. UM. I'd like to believe I've been 711 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,720 Speaker 1: polite about it, but I'm definitely the type of person 712 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: has a hard time not noticing and having my attention 713 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: drawn to irregularities about people, especially on their faces. About 714 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: two weeks ago, I developed a bacterial infection of my 715 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: skin that covers about half of my forehead and extends 716 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: down to one eye, causing redness and swelling that makes 717 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: eye remain more lows and the other interresting state I 718 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 1: was surprised of how many of my friends and strangers 719 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: in public I could tell her distracted by it when 720 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:07,879 Speaker 1: talking to me, and it made me feel a little 721 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: self conscious on top of my own hang ups about 722 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: such things. I think I've learned a little bit from 723 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: the experience about what it might be like to be 724 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: someone that goes through their whole life in this situation. 725 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: In my case, at least, it's not as simple as 726 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: just ignoring the condition, but it goes a long way 727 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: for people to acknowledge it and be able to accept 728 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 1: it without judgment. Thanks for the work you guys do 729 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: for keeping me company with a wide variety of topics. 730 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,800 Speaker 1: That is from Andrew in Utah. Thanks a lot, Andrew. 731 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: We appreciate that. Yeah, sorry to hear about that, man, 732 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: and but I like your attitude about it and fresh 733 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: perspective it's brought you. If you got a brush with 734 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,879 Speaker 1: fresh perspective, we want to hear about that, no matter 735 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: what it has to do with You can tweet to us. 736 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: Oh wait, Chuck, we want to say Happy New Year 737 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: at everybody. Yeah, Happy New Year, and happy birthday you me, 738 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: Happy birthday, you me? Okay, So if you want, you 739 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: can tweet to us an s y ESK podcast. You 740 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: can join us on Facebook, dot com slash Stuff you 741 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: Should Know. You can send us an email to stuff 742 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: podcast at House to worst dot com and has always 743 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: joined us at at Home on the web. Stuff you 744 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: Should Know dot Com. Stuff you Should Know is a 745 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, 746 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,760 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 747 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.