Speaker 1: Hanging around people who have acquired wisdom achieved happiness. Listen
Speaker 1: as they talk about what has helped them succeed, and
Speaker 1: take it from me. There's plenty we can borrow and adapt.
Speaker 1: It will help us thrive. My guest, Ray Cole, has
Speaker 1: done that during his five decade career as a respected
Speaker 1: television executive, and Ray wrote a book all about it,
Speaker 1: Hanging with Winners. He shares wisdom from dozens of inspiring
Speaker 1: figures like Michael J. Fox, Jimmy Kimmel, Diane Sawyer, Robin Roberts,
Speaker 1: sports figures like Dick By tal and Jay Williams, and
Speaker 1: elite executives like Bob Iger of Disney and George Bodenheiber,
Speaker 1: who ran ESPN. In this conversation, Ray and I touched
Speaker 1: on themes like leadership, integrity, curiosity, gratitude, acceptance, and many
Speaker 1: more principles that helped create success. You've talked to and
Speaker 1: been involved with so many successful people, and there's different
Speaker 1: definitions for success, and there's many qualities that go into
Speaker 1: that depending on the individual in the circumstances. But what
Speaker 1: a common threads rated you find them on people who
Speaker 1: have who have been inspirational defied odds and achieved. And
Speaker 1: I don't mean just financial success, and I don't mean
Speaker 1: even success as defined by others, but in their own way.
Speaker 1: When I set out to write this book, what I
Speaker 1: wanted to accomplish was helping people learn from others in
Speaker 1: a way where they could maybe shape their own destiny,
Speaker 1: where they could learn lessons from others, recognizing that being
Speaker 1: a winner is not a word that you put on
Speaker 1: a resume or in a bio, but it is a
Speaker 1: word that means different things to different people, but ultimately
Speaker 1: it conveys a happiness and a level of success, hopefully
Speaker 1: in your life in a way that goes beyond the
Speaker 1: traditional definition of being successful, much as you pointed out.
Speaker 1: So what are some of those things? All the people
Speaker 1: we talked to we interviewed over eighty people for the book,
Speaker 1: they would all start with something that is really foundational,
Speaker 1: and that's your character. And in a word, that flows
Speaker 1: from character is your integrity and how you have to
Speaker 1: build that, You have to protect it, you have to
Speaker 1: guard it um and you have to use it. And
Speaker 1: what flows from character then is what they would all
Speaker 1: cite as truly foundational, which is showing others and treating
Speaker 1: others with kindness and respect and empathy. So that's where
Speaker 1: I would start foundation one. And then what was interesting
Speaker 1: to me was how many people that we interviewed, how
Speaker 1: many winners cited the trait of curiosity being and remaining curious. UM.
Speaker 1: That wouldn't be that surprised you a bit. That wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been what you might expected to hear one of
Speaker 1: the top things that the successful people. It wouldn't have
Speaker 1: surprised me that it was on the list. Uh. And
Speaker 1: in my chapter seven, where we bring all the wisdom
Speaker 1: from the previous six chapters together in a little nugget, US,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have surprised me that it was on the list.
Speaker 1: It surprised me that it was cited so often, so
Speaker 1: frequently as something that is truly critical, you know. And they,
Speaker 1: you know, when they would cite that, what they would
Speaker 1: do is they would talk about, um, the importance of
Speaker 1: curiosity when it comes to developing new relationships. They would
Speaker 1: talk about how important it is to you know, helping
Speaker 1: you shape your perceptions UH and ideas UH. And people
Speaker 1: people like Bob Iger and people like George Bodenheimer. They
Speaker 1: talked about curiosity from the standpoint of how important it
Speaker 1: was because it oftentimes can serve as the basis to
Speaker 1: challenge outdated assumptions, you know, And so I remember, I
Speaker 1: think it was Bob Iger who said, you know what,
Speaker 1: curiosity is too oftentimes the fuel source for winning decisions.
Speaker 1: And if you don't have that fuel source filled up, uh,
Speaker 1: you may not make the right decision, or at least
Speaker 1: the best decision you could. You're right both about George
Speaker 1: Boden Iber ran ESPN for years, superbolate, with such a
Speaker 1: decency in humanity, not always qualities that are top of
Speaker 1: mind when you think of the stereotypical TV executive. But
Speaker 1: he had them, and so did Bob Iger, and he's
Speaker 1: one of the great CEOs that's ever been running any company.
Speaker 1: You wrote three words that I've never seen put together
Speaker 1: that uncertainty fuels him. Right, that's extraordinary because uncertainty for
Speaker 1: so many people is just a source of anxiety. It's
Speaker 1: a source of fear, so fear that can lead to paralysis.
Speaker 1: And how could uncertainty be used as fuel when you're
Speaker 1: making decisions to run a multibillion dollar corporation? Yeah, that
Speaker 1: is right out of the Bob Iger profile. Uncertainty fuels Bob. Um.
Speaker 1: And how can we learn that? How can we learned
Speaker 1: to to emulate that? I mean, because it's human nature
Speaker 1: that which we don't know is something that we we
Speaker 1: could fear. Yeah, I pointed out how he I've known
Speaker 1: Bob since the late seventies early eighties, and what I've
Speaker 1: always found about Bob is that he finds the silver
Speaker 1: lining in any situation. Um. You know, and we talked
Speaker 1: to a lot of people about Bob and how he
Speaker 1: illuminates the upside. We had executives tell us that, you know,
Speaker 1: Bob would engage ondas that might seem crazy and easily
Speaker 1: rushed off by other executives other people, Um. When others
Speaker 1: were saying why, he would often challenge the people around
Speaker 1: him by asking why not? Um. And I think what
Speaker 1: we learned about Bob is that one of his greatest
Speaker 1: strengths was being able to see pass the latest acquisition
Speaker 1: and into the future and towards what things should look
Speaker 1: like from his point of view. And boy was he president.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you enough how that was demonstrated to
Speaker 1: me time and time again. Uh. And and if you
Speaker 1: look at his acquisitions, a Pixar Lucas uh, the m
Speaker 1: c U, the Marshal, the Marvel character universe, um. And
Speaker 1: then he caps it all off with a with a
Speaker 1: sixty billion dollar transaction low seventy billion dollar transaction with
Speaker 1: twenty one century Fox. Pretty amazing because Bob gave a
Speaker 1: speech to the National Association of Broadcasters at their annual
Speaker 1: meeting way back in the late nineties. He wasn't even
Speaker 1: chairman and CEO that UM, and he talked about if
Speaker 1: I can find Chris, I want to read just to
Speaker 1: you because it is amazing to me. Uh. This was
Speaker 1: from the opening keynote address. Now think about this. This
Speaker 1: is April of n Okay, and in part he said
Speaker 1: the following. The multitude of decisions we face today creates
Speaker 1: quite a chance olenge to any long term planning process.
Speaker 1: None of us knows exactly where we're going, but we
Speaker 1: can't afford to stand still. The changes affecting our business
Speaker 1: over the past decade have been much more sweeping and
Speaker 1: consequential than most of us appreciated. Today's viewer bears no
Speaker 1: resemblance to the viewer of yesterday, and the changes over
Speaker 1: the next ten years will be so vast that no
Speaker 1: one can predict with any assurance where the business is headed.
Speaker 1: If we continue to ignore the change or attempt to
Speaker 1: conduct business as usual, we won't be conducting much business
Speaker 1: at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm still an optimist
Speaker 1: about the television business. I'm just not a cheerleader for
Speaker 1: the status quo that's in the nineties, right, That's when
Speaker 1: cable was still going strong and nobody even conceived that
Speaker 1: streaming what somebody knew extreaming was. And look look at
Speaker 1: where he look at where he has looked. He stepped down,
Speaker 1: as you know, at the end of last year um
Speaker 1: to to a deserved retire erman. But his fifteen years
Speaker 1: as CEO was nothing less than transformational for the Walt
Speaker 1: Disney Company. Uh. And it was because of that statement
Speaker 1: you lead with about uncertainty fuels Bob. It's reflected in
Speaker 1: that speech for all the uncertainty about where our business
Speaker 1: was going. Uh, he tracked it better than most. When
Speaker 1: I say prescient, boy, I mean it with a capital P.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. And he was just um someone that I
Speaker 1: enjoyed spending time with and being around with the few
Speaker 1: times that we were, especially after he moved on from
Speaker 1: the ABC Television network, we didn't see him as often.
Speaker 1: I have to tell you one last story about Bob Eyer. So,
Speaker 1: Bob wrote a best selling book, and again I would
Speaker 1: It's been out several years, but I would encourage your
Speaker 1: podcast listeners, if they haven't read it, to read it.
Speaker 1: It's called The Ride of a Lifetime. And one day
Speaker 1: my wife comes and she she says, here's a FedEx
Speaker 1: package for you. Here, it's from Bob Iger and I go, really,
Speaker 1: So I opened it up and it's a copy of
Speaker 1: his book, and on the inside of the book what
Speaker 1: he wrote was, in so many words paraphrasing Ray, Uh,
Speaker 1: we have had the Ride of the lifetime and it
Speaker 1: has been an honor for me to have you a
Speaker 1: part of it. Best always, Bob. So I wrote my
Speaker 1: book that we're talking about today, and not to be outdone,
Speaker 1: I fed FedEx him a copy. Chris and I put
Speaker 1: a note in the front that says, Bob, we both
Speaker 1: had the Rides of the Lifetime. The difference is yours
Speaker 1: was the matter horn and mine more closely resembled the teacups.
Speaker 1: Best to Ray, I'm sure he appreciated the the original
Speaker 1: like Disneyland reference. That's good. I mean it's not always
Speaker 1: running multibillion dollar corporations, though, uncertainty in the lives of anyone,
Speaker 1: and then finding a way to say, oh, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be inspired by that. I'm not gonna be scared by that.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to view a possibility as as or
Speaker 1: a hurdle has something to be fear, but embraced. It's
Speaker 1: when you talk to people. I mean, how difficult is
Speaker 1: it to get that message across and what are some
Speaker 1: of the tricks you think too to employ in an
Speaker 1: everyday life. If you're not a Bob Biker, but you're
Speaker 1: facing uncertainty and you're facing challenges and you just see
Speaker 1: red lights instead of green lights, well, I think the
Speaker 1: first thing you understand is um the need to accept failure.
Speaker 1: And with so many people we interviewed for the book,
Speaker 1: they framed it in a way where you learn to
Speaker 1: embrace adversity. It's not something that you fear. To use
Speaker 1: the word we just used with Bob Biger, Uh, fear
Speaker 1: was not in his vocabulary. Um. Learn how to accept
Speaker 1: that that adversity and and learn from it, uh and
Speaker 1: take it with you to the next challenge that you
Speaker 1: face along the way. I just think that is so critical.
Speaker 1: Michael J. Fox is somebody that I know you're close
Speaker 1: to and you've you've written about him in your book.
Speaker 1: Because Michael J. Fox took up golf after being diagnosed
Speaker 1: with Parkinson's disease. It's been thirty years since that diagnosis.
Speaker 1: You wrote that that was maybe the most optimistic thing
Speaker 1: he'd ever done, or that was his characterization. Let's take
Speaker 1: the most challenging game we can think of, the hardest
Speaker 1: to learn, the most frustrating, and we're gonna take it
Speaker 1: up after getting diagnosed for a disease that is physically debilitating.
Speaker 1: I find that remarkable and inspiring. Yeah, in the case
Speaker 1: of Michael, it might be appropriate to go back to
Speaker 1: the future. And by that I mean I first met
Speaker 1: Michael at an affiliate meeting in Orlando, Florida, at the
Speaker 1: time that Spin City was on the ABC Television Networks
Speaker 1: primetime schedule. The show had just moved into the top ten.
Speaker 1: Um people think of family ties when it comes to
Speaker 1: Michael in terms of television, I think of I think
Speaker 1: of Spin City, and it's just to this day, it's
Speaker 1: it's saddens me to think about where that show might
Speaker 1: have gone, could have gone if he hadn't been diagnosed
Speaker 1: with Parkinson's. So we first met there. We stayed in
Speaker 1: touch through the years and again then I fast forward
Speaker 1: to UH Sometime in the late around two thousand nine
Speaker 1: or ten, Michael wrote a book, and I would encourage
Speaker 1: your podcast listeners to check it out. It's been around
Speaker 1: a while, but it's called Always Looking Up, The Adventures
Speaker 1: of an Incurable Optivist. That book has so many life
Speaker 1: lessons in it. Chris Um and I read that book.
Speaker 1: ABC did a primetime schedule featuring Michael and of all people,
Speaker 1: Bill Murray, playing at a golf course that I play
Speaker 1: often called Sleepy Hollow, where Bill Murray is a member.
Speaker 1: And I called Michael's office the next day and I said,
Speaker 1: I'm involved with a Champions Tour pro am event in
Speaker 1: Des Moines, Iowa that raises money for kids. I'd love
Speaker 1: Michael to be my guest. And in twenty four hours
Speaker 1: he said yes, and he flew up. We played golf
Speaker 1: together for the first time, and as you pointed out,
Speaker 1: and as I do in the book as well, playing
Speaker 1: golf with Michael J. Fox is really a thrill. Here's
Speaker 1: a guy who took up the games. You pointed out
Speaker 1: after being diagnosed with Parkinson's and it is amazing to
Speaker 1: watch his determination to play that game. Uh, it is
Speaker 1: just so much fun. And we've played golf half a
Speaker 1: dozen times since, and every time I do, I walk
Speaker 1: away thinking that was one of the best experiences of
Speaker 1: my life. He's very self deprecating after doing various jobs
Speaker 1: in the show business, where he's so gifted and so
Speaker 1: innately talented, he says, it's great to do something that
Speaker 1: I suck in. Now he's better than that in golf,
Speaker 1: but just imagine most people are fearful of that. And
Speaker 1: he plays golf in these proem events with galleries and people,
Speaker 1: so he's not afraid to put that out there and
Speaker 1: and do it in public. But imagine wanting to take
Speaker 1: up something because it's tough and because you suck in it,
Speaker 1: it's great to play it. Yeah. His philosophy on life
Speaker 1: is amazing, Chris Um. He has a great line, you know,
Speaker 1: the life is a ride strapped in hang on and
Speaker 1: keep your eyes wide open. And he embodies that philosophy himself,
Speaker 1: and as I say in the book, to do what
Speaker 1: he's done, to take on challenges and then use them
Speaker 1: as platforms for change, to challenge himself and to do
Speaker 1: so in a way that inspires others. I don't think
Speaker 1: it gets much better than that. Yeah, you wrote that
Speaker 1: he has turned adversity into a platform for growth. That
Speaker 1: that's a beautiful thing. It applies to lots of people
Speaker 1: because adversity comes in many forms. To be fair, though,
Speaker 1: Michael did wrestle with some stuff he wrote in his
Speaker 1: own book about turning the alcohol after getting that devas
Speaker 1: hitting diagnosis. He was in a pretty dark place for
Speaker 1: a couple of years. His wife Tracy helped him out.
Speaker 1: His son was young at the time, and and a
Speaker 1: mirror was kind of put up to him and it
Speaker 1: showed him he was headed in a way that he
Speaker 1: didn't like, and he was able to dig out. And
Speaker 1: to me, Ray, that makes it even more compelling that
Speaker 1: he had to wrestle with some dark stuff that that
Speaker 1: a lot of people do when they're initially hit with
Speaker 1: that adversity and then work through it. You know, you
Speaker 1: and I have a mutual friend who used to be
Speaker 1: an executive at ESPN named Jerry Madela. We all called
Speaker 1: him g Matt. G Matt has a great line in
Speaker 1: my book, uh, and it applies in this instance, and
Speaker 1: what G. Matt told me was that if you want
Speaker 1: to impress me, show me your accolades. If you want
Speaker 1: to impact me, show me your scars. And that that's
Speaker 1: what Michael has done in several books in opening up,
Speaker 1: sharing those personal challenges that he had, how he first
Speaker 1: reacted to being saddled with a Parkinson's diagnosis and then
Speaker 1: realizing he could do something with that and and establishing
Speaker 1: the Michael J. Fox Parkinson's Research Foundation. It's amazing joining
Speaker 1: forces with a larger than life figure like Michael himself
Speaker 1: in in Muhammad ali Um and as Michael is found
Speaker 1: of saying, who else would you rather have in your
Speaker 1: corner than the great one? One of the great things
Speaker 1: about hanging with winners that turned out to be special
Speaker 1: to me was that we talked to winners to do
Speaker 1: the book, to write the book, but we also talked
Speaker 1: to winners about other winners. And in one such case,
Speaker 1: it was George Stephanopolis talking about Michael J. Fox and
Speaker 1: again he knows Michael as well as anyone, and Michael
Speaker 1: told us that just being around him as an awful
Speaker 1: lot of fun, you'd never know the burdens he's carrying
Speaker 1: because he addresses the challenges with his famous optimism, and
Speaker 1: he maintains all that not in a saccharin way, but
Speaker 1: in a way that's rooted in reality. Does not I
Speaker 1: what's happening or denying what he's dealing with, but rather
Speaker 1: Michael puts it in perspective. He simply shows everyone the
Speaker 1: power of perseverance and hope while addressing whatever it is
Speaker 1: that life throws at you. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: is authentic, not Sacharin. And I think he invites all
Speaker 1: that boy playing golf with him, playing golf with him
Speaker 1: and Bill Murray would be that would be a life
Speaker 1: peak experience that that I'm misimagining those two together, that
Speaker 1: would be a lot of laughs. Right, You're right about
Speaker 1: Jay Williams in your book, and Jay Williams is someone
Speaker 1: had to pivot and had to reinvent himself and had
Speaker 1: to face a different kind of adversity all American to
Speaker 1: Duke when a championship he has headed to a certain
Speaker 1: NBA start him gets in a motorcycle accident and that
Speaker 1: career has taken away from him. Of course he's gone
Speaker 1: on to a career in television, but but to two
Speaker 1: face that kind of disappointment, that kind of loss of
Speaker 1: your identity right as an athlete, as a basketball player.
Speaker 1: And I know you introduced um with Martin Luther King Lion.
Speaker 1: You said we must accept finite disappointments, but never lose
Speaker 1: infinite hope. That's powerfully said, like many things that MLK said,
Speaker 1: but easier said than done. I mean, that's a that's
Speaker 1: more than a disappointment, that's a devastation. And he found
Speaker 1: a way to not lose hope and to pivot. And
Speaker 1: Jay is an interesting, interesting character in your book as well.
Speaker 1: And I think, like Michael J. Fox, I'd like to
Speaker 1: start by going back to the future. Chris, A lot
Speaker 1: of your podcast listeners might not know what you and
Speaker 1: I know about Jay, and that is what a remarkable
Speaker 1: basketball player it was. You have a lot of young
Speaker 1: people listening. It's been twenty years since since Jay stepped
Speaker 1: away from Duke University. It's been twenty one years since
Speaker 1: he led the Blue Devils to a national championship, and
Speaker 1: I'm not sure a lot of people and they see
Speaker 1: him on TV today know just what a great player
Speaker 1: he was. In my lifetime. He had the quickest first
Speaker 1: step off a dribble of anybody I've ever seen. He's amazing.
Speaker 1: And he led the Blue Devils, as I said, to
Speaker 1: the two thousand one national championship. They lost in his
Speaker 1: junior year. He turned pro after that. So in his
Speaker 1: last year or junior year, you know, they lost that game, uh,
Speaker 1: in a lead aid game to the eventual national champion,
Speaker 1: who I think was Indiana. Don't hold me to that, um,
Speaker 1: And they lost by one point. And so here he
Speaker 1: is at the pinnacle of his career and turns pro.
Speaker 1: Great trivia question. He was the Consensus Player of the Year,
Speaker 1: the Wooden Award winner. Uh you name it, uh an
Speaker 1: ABC All American Consensus All American. UM. He was the
Speaker 1: number two player chosen in the draft. You remember who
Speaker 1: was number one? You're no, I don't yell ming. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's a trip. It's kind of a trick question. Jay
Speaker 1: was the best college basketball player by far, but he
Speaker 1: was chosen number two h because of y'alming being drafted
Speaker 1: ahead of him. So now now I'm gonna go to
Speaker 1: your question with that backdrop to make sure people know
Speaker 1: what a special special player. He's drafted number two by
Speaker 1: the Chicago Bulls and he goes and he plays one
Speaker 1: rookie year, uh and he has a horrific accident that's
Speaker 1: been well documented, and that accident put him not at
Speaker 1: the intersection of his career, but at the intersection of
Speaker 1: life itself. And as we talked in the book, he
Speaker 1: could have chosen to stop, he could have stayed where
Speaker 1: he was, but he chose instead to make the choice
Speaker 1: to see the adversity that he was confronted with as
Speaker 1: an opportunity, an opportunity to learn and to grow and
Speaker 1: to move forward, all the while knowing and having to accept,
Speaker 1: which was very difficult for him. If you read his
Speaker 1: own book, where he, like Michael J. Fox Boy, he
Speaker 1: shows scars, not just it's not about accolades. He talks
Speaker 1: about it and how he had to put aside the
Speaker 1: fact that he would never play professional basketball again. It
Speaker 1: was no longer in his path and it's like he
Speaker 1: likes to say, it was no longer a part of
Speaker 1: his journey. So I think that the story of Jake
Speaker 1: Williams in the book is so instructive to people with
Speaker 1: everyday decisions that they have a choice to make and
Speaker 1: having to understand that their inevitable setbacks. Well maybe not
Speaker 1: as tragic and severe and graphic as Jay's. That it's
Speaker 1: their choice to learn from experiences and to find ways
Speaker 1: to navigate them differently. Um, the next time it comes up.
Speaker 1: And but Jay was what Ja told us is that
Speaker 1: he believed strongly that too often people get fixated and
Speaker 1: become so myopic, myopic that they may have lost uh,
Speaker 1: that they don't pay attention to what they could have learned,
Speaker 1: what they could have gained from that adversity in that
Speaker 1: negative experience. That's powerful. You know. We talked about curiosity,
Speaker 1: and we talked about character, and we talked about embracing
Speaker 1: a versity. Another one is is mentors. George Bodenheimer talked
Speaker 1: about the critical importance of mentors and to not think
Speaker 1: you have to do things on your own. Um. George
Speaker 1: said made the point that life doesn't the world doesn't
Speaker 1: work that way. UM. You need to reach out and
Speaker 1: learn from others who can fill that mentoring role for you.
Speaker 1: And then when you had the opportunity ten or twenty
Speaker 1: years later, it's time for you to pay that back
Speaker 1: and serve as a mentor to others. You know, Chris
Speaker 1: and our interview with you, you you talked about the
Speaker 1: uh the influence that the late John Saunders had on you.
Speaker 1: He in essence had a mentoring role for you, did
Speaker 1: he not? Oh, John was a very important mentor. There
Speaker 1: were others, but he was just older, wiser, more experienced,
Speaker 1: and he was generous with his time. And I looked
Speaker 1: at his example. I without that, I would have been lost.
Speaker 1: I think you come into this this business, like any business,
Speaker 1: like anything in life. I think approaching it with offidence
Speaker 1: but humility. And it's very hard when you're young and
Speaker 1: you think you've got a future, you think you've got
Speaker 1: potential to to listen far more than you talk when
Speaker 1: you're new at something. And I I got smacked down
Speaker 1: rad I was in a newsroom in Denver. I got
Speaker 1: publicly humiliated by an old veteran. And I had it
Speaker 1: coming because I didn't even know what I didn't know.
Speaker 1: But you're on there, you're sure, you're sure yourself. And
Speaker 1: that was one of the most important things that ever
Speaker 1: happened to my broadcasting career. I always used as an example.
Speaker 1: I wasn't on the air, but it was one of
Speaker 1: the most important experiences I had. So in coming to
Speaker 1: ESPN as as I looked eleven years old. I was
Speaker 1: hosting a high school sports show. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of folks who have done a lot of stuff in
Speaker 1: TV sports at that point. Um hopefully by that point,
Speaker 1: I'm sure a certain percentage thought, who is this obnoxious kid?
Speaker 1: But but it was John Saunders and others who were
Speaker 1: who are kind and just by their example, Uh, we're
Speaker 1: we're great mentors. You're right. I don't know how you
Speaker 1: do this without that. All of us need to to
Speaker 1: watch and listen more than we talk at certain stages
Speaker 1: of our development and learn from others. You talked about leadership.
Speaker 1: I do. I'm talking about leadership and and the the
Speaker 1: important things that you found that leaders have. By leader,
Speaker 1: I don't mean running a country or running a company.
Speaker 1: It could be something much more modest than that. But
Speaker 1: I think we all know that having qualities of leadership
Speaker 1: that's important in life in different in different ways. And
Speaker 1: for me, leadership starts with awareness. I've seen leaders that
Speaker 1: are very aware of themselves of others, and if they are,
Speaker 1: then they can have empathy and compassion, and to me,
Speaker 1: that's a very important aspect of leadership. Leadership does not
Speaker 1: getting other people to do what you want them to do.
Speaker 1: Or bending their will to suit your purposes. That that
Speaker 1: I think is misidentified as leadership. In the various leaders
Speaker 1: in different fields you came across, what did you find
Speaker 1: was most important? Well, one of the leaders that I
Speaker 1: would point to is one that was your leader, who
Speaker 1: I had the opportunity and the great privilege to work with,
Speaker 1: and that's George. Bodenheimer touched on George earlier. But you know,
Speaker 1: George and Bob Iger and other leaders that I've seen,
Speaker 1: many of them are almost introverted in nature. You know,
Speaker 1: Bob Eiger is not an outwardly flamboyant person at all.
Speaker 1: Neither was George. And maybe it has everything to do
Speaker 1: with humble beginnings. As you know, George started in the
Speaker 1: mail room at ESPN. One of his jobs and no
Speaker 1: one loves telling the story better than Dick By tell himself,
Speaker 1: but one of George's early jobs as a mail clerk
Speaker 1: was to go pick up Dick at the Hartford Airport
Speaker 1: and getting to Bristol to work. And and that story
Speaker 1: has become quite legendary through years, and like a great
Speaker 1: fifth story, that fish is now four ft long. But
Speaker 1: but the point is, as George did start there, and
Speaker 1: he you know, from the mail Room to the Boardroom
Speaker 1: is the subtitle of his book. Uh, and it's true.
Speaker 1: Eiger started as a production assistant at ABC Television Network,
Speaker 1: and Sweeney who is uh figures prominently in the book
Speaker 1: and contributed so many inspiring thoughts. Uh. She rose to
Speaker 1: the same level as George Bodenheimer. I worked with both
Speaker 1: of them as chairman of the ABC board. George was
Speaker 1: one co chair of the Disney Media Networks and was
Speaker 1: the other one. George oversaw all of ESPN and oversaw
Speaker 1: all the other media networks, and started at the ABC
Speaker 1: Television Network as a page while working in college. Okay,
Speaker 1: so maybe that contributes to a word that you used earlier,
Speaker 1: which is humility, Uh, something that great leaders have. So
Speaker 1: introverts out there, the introverts out there listening to you know,
Speaker 1: need not be ruled out of leadership positions just because
Speaker 1: for them maybe it isn't second nature to reach out
Speaker 1: and to be forceful with your personality. But leadership in
Speaker 1: another form, well leader, I'm fond of saying that leadership
Speaker 1: is not innate. Okay. Um, there's no single answer or
Speaker 1: path to becoming a good or effective leader. Um, but
Speaker 1: it's I think the people that become great leaders that
Speaker 1: don't consider themselves to be a boss with people that
Speaker 1: work for them. They see themselves as a colleague who
Speaker 1: works with those people reporting to them. Uh, They're good listeners,
Speaker 1: they ask the right questions. Um, and leadership I think,
Speaker 1: to your point extends far beyond business. It extends to
Speaker 1: how we choose to live our life in many respects,
Speaker 1: and that will make you a better leader. I have
Speaker 1: a saying your professional life and your personal life are
Speaker 1: two halves of the same sphere. You can't be really
Speaker 1: good in your professional life and really louses in your
Speaker 1: personal life, and vice versa in my view, and so
Speaker 1: I think that in both business in life, it's about
Speaker 1: inspiring others. When it comes to leadership, it's helping others
Speaker 1: to be their best selves while you're working to be
Speaker 1: the best version of yourself, trying to be the kind
Speaker 1: of person that you'll be happy to live with the
Speaker 1: rest of your life. Okay, why do you say that, Ray,
Speaker 1: I mean someone might listen to wait a second. We
Speaker 1: all know people that have had enormous success financially, success
Speaker 1: in business, yet their personal life is a train wreck.
Speaker 1: They have no work life balance, they're unable to, or
Speaker 1: you could, you could, the reverse could happen. But but
Speaker 1: more famously, it's people that are seen as these ultimate
Speaker 1: high achievers. If you look behind the curtain, they're not
Speaker 1: successful in their personal life. They're not they don't have
Speaker 1: great relationships with friends and colleagues and so on. Well,
Speaker 1: one of the things about working on this book is
Speaker 1: that I learned that what it means to be a
Speaker 1: winner is far more subjective and ambiguous than it is
Speaker 1: quality lectative and clear. In my view, in my definition
Speaker 1: of what it means to be a winner, you have
Speaker 1: to take You have to take the entire sphere. You
Speaker 1: don't get to break it up. You don't get to
Speaker 1: break off half and take the position that the other
Speaker 1: half doesn't matter. I think that that it's about achieving
Speaker 1: mutual success with others around you at work, and also
Speaker 1: creating a life that you're happy with at home, whether
Speaker 1: it's a spouse or your kids or your grandkids or whatever.
Speaker 1: And it's also about it's about giving back. You know,
Speaker 1: when we talk about leadership, the big thing today people
Speaker 1: talk about they put an adjective in front of it, Chris,
Speaker 1: you hear it more and more it's called servant leadership,
Speaker 1: and I think servant leadership is where anybody listening to
Speaker 1: this podcast who really aspires to be the best version
Speaker 1: of themselves and to help others around them do the same,
Speaker 1: I think that's where they should go. That's about influencing
Speaker 1: others to serve the greater good. The best leaders are
Speaker 1: focused on serving other people and and their community at large.
Speaker 1: We spend a lot of time in the book, people
Speaker 1: like George Boldenhimer and others talk about giving back and
Speaker 1: the affirmative obligation that you, as a leader, you as
Speaker 1: a winner, have um to reach out, use your connections,
Speaker 1: to use your relationships in a way that influences others
Speaker 1: to do good. Stepping out and doing what you can
Speaker 1: to help others in the community. I think that's the
Speaker 1: kind of leadership. That's the kind of winner that I
Speaker 1: hope that we focused on in this book. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: beautifully said. Thanks for sharing that. I help people listen
Speaker 1: to that, dive into that dissected and take that to heart.
Speaker 1: Success I mean, I think more and more people feel
Speaker 1: like they deserve the right to find what success is
Speaker 1: for them, and I think it's it's something I try
Speaker 1: to preach two young people. When I'm asked, I try
Speaker 1: not to say you must do this. I try to
Speaker 1: rarely say you should do that. I just try to
Speaker 1: relate what's been important to me and what I've learned.
Speaker 1: And I think that so many people right approach their
Speaker 1: life like it's a business and want to define success
Speaker 1: in their life the same way success is often defined
Speaker 1: in business terms profits, what your company is worth, your
Speaker 1: market share, the price of your shares, and your life
Speaker 1: is not a business, right. What we don't have to
Speaker 1: define successful as you know how much money you made,
Speaker 1: in the amount of toys that you own, how elaborate
Speaker 1: those toys are, whether your toys are better than your
Speaker 1: neighbor's toys. But it's sometimes hard to get people to
Speaker 1: see it or or be reprogrammed, because so much of
Speaker 1: what success means revolves around money domination. You know, um,
Speaker 1: I would, Um, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. I
Speaker 1: don't think winning or success is about I don't think
Speaker 1: it's about money. It's not about in our business crests,
Speaker 1: it's not about ratings and revenue. It's not about stock
Speaker 1: prices and accomplishments and accolades and awards, and in inductions
Speaker 1: into so many halls of fame. Um. I think it's
Speaker 1: about going through a life where you do get knocked down, uh,
Speaker 1: and you were courageous enough to get back up and
Speaker 1: to understand that winning is about getting up. And really
Speaker 1: it's about I think what you're saying in so many words,
Speaker 1: it's about keeping your priorities straight. It's about knowing who
Speaker 1: matters and who doesn't. It's about knowing what matters and
Speaker 1: what doesn't. And I think if you're lucky enough to
Speaker 1: have a loving family and caring friends and a job
Speaker 1: that you think meets a purpose in this world, then
Speaker 1: I think you've won. There's a great quote in the
Speaker 1: book from Diane Sawyer who said to us that if
Speaker 1: you've got that intersection of your joy and the feeling
Speaker 1: that it's meeting in need of the world, then your home,
Speaker 1: that's your whole career. Quote unquote, Diane beautifully said, I
Speaker 1: couldn't say it any better. No, she's an ABC News legend.
Speaker 1: I told you before that. That's another sentence in the
Speaker 1: book that just jumped out at me because it's discussed
Speaker 1: so much. I mean, there are millions of books and
Speaker 1: podcasts about success and what it means and how you
Speaker 1: get there, and she said, it's the moment when your
Speaker 1: purpose meets joy. And that is as succinctly put as
Speaker 1: I've ever heard it, and it can't be put better.
Speaker 1: She goes on to say that the thing that you
Speaker 1: want to do is the thing that you get to do,
Speaker 1: and that's obviously talked about by lots of people. When
Speaker 1: when you love what you do and not try to
Speaker 1: convince yourself that what you do is something you should
Speaker 1: be passionate about, when organically springs from from what you
Speaker 1: what you uh see as your purpose. And then what
Speaker 1: she does is she takes another step and she says
Speaker 1: that when when what you want to do is what
Speaker 1: you get to do, and then that somehow makes the
Speaker 1: world better, And that I think is a trick your
Speaker 1: component for people, because someone could say, hey, you know, Ray,
Speaker 1: I love surfing. That's my passion to get up every
Speaker 1: day and being one with the waves. And if you
Speaker 1: can work in a surf shop and and be passionate
Speaker 1: about every day doing that, I'm not going to criticize
Speaker 1: that at all. But can you find a way to
Speaker 1: somehow make the world a little bit better? Whatever that is,
Speaker 1: whether that's spreading your message, whether it's mentoring. It doesn't
Speaker 1: need to be super dramatic, but I love that component that, Hey,
Speaker 1: it's not just doing what we want to do and
Speaker 1: getting paid for it. It's finding a way to extend
Speaker 1: that and make the world better in some way based
Speaker 1: on that. So many of the winners we talked to
Speaker 1: Chris Uh, in keeping with Diane's punctuation point of meeting
Speaker 1: a need of the world for that surfer or whoever else,
Speaker 1: So many of the winners we talked to Um made
Speaker 1: a point of saying that they would be disappointed if
Speaker 1: they didn't leave the world better than the way they
Speaker 1: found it. Um. They said it in different ways, but
Speaker 1: they in essence conveyed that message. And it is about
Speaker 1: meeting a need of the world. It is about giving back.
Speaker 1: It is what Dick Vital talked about in his profile.
Speaker 1: Nobody has done it better than him when it comes
Speaker 1: to lending a hand, lending a helping hand to those
Speaker 1: who need it. Oh my gosh, is there anybody who's
Speaker 1: done that? And you and I are proud, I know
Speaker 1: to call him a mutual friend of ours. Is there
Speaker 1: anybody that does it better than Dick Uh? Throughout his
Speaker 1: throughout his career. Did you I'm gonna have to ask
Speaker 1: you this. Did you see just yesterday? Uh? In the
Speaker 1: big lead a story from Kyle Coster. Do you know Kyle?
Speaker 1: I don't know him. Yeah, okay, so he wrote an
Speaker 1: article about I believe. The headline was Dick fi tells
Speaker 1: voice and as you know, he's not talking now, Dick
Speaker 1: five tell his voice louder than ever. So if I
Speaker 1: can just read an excerpt from them, because it ties
Speaker 1: in exactly with what we're talking about. And what what?
Speaker 1: What Kyle wrote in this beautiful essay of his is
Speaker 1: the following. There exists a perfect opportunity for all those
Speaker 1: who care to follow the template. Dick Fight Tell himself
Speaker 1: is built to show the same kind of compassion he
Speaker 1: showt to conjure up a fraction of the hustle he
Speaker 1: gives every day, both in front of the camera and
Speaker 1: off screen, to think of others and hold a warm
Speaker 1: thought for their success, To show the willingness to process
Speaker 1: some of the same pain and challenges their process, to
Speaker 1: have optimism in the face of bad news, and to
Speaker 1: plunge ahead undeterred. Beautiful that is Dick by tell our
Speaker 1: friend to a t Dick. Dick was a guest on
Speaker 1: the podcast. We talked a lot about this and before
Speaker 1: his cancer diagnosis, but we talked about the dinner, and
Speaker 1: I know Dick gets very caught up in the numbers
Speaker 1: and and he wants to set records and he wants to,
Speaker 1: you know, continue to raise the bar like he's a coach.
Speaker 1: It's a scoreboard, okay, And he sometimes sees the fight
Speaker 1: against cancer as a scoreboard. And I'm not here too
Speaker 1: to punch holes in that. But I did try to
Speaker 1: tell him, Dick, forget the numbers. Like I walk out
Speaker 1: of there, so many people walk out of there inspired, moved, humbled,
Speaker 1: wanting to do more, wanted to be better and be
Speaker 1: more generous, and think about the power of that, not
Speaker 1: just for him, but so many others. I think that right,
Speaker 1: if if we can, through our decency or compassion or
Speaker 1: general city or giving back in some small way, when
Speaker 1: someone leaves our presence, so they walk away thinking those
Speaker 1: things that everyone who goes to that I tell Gala
Speaker 1: thinks is how can I be better based on his
Speaker 1: example or her example. I think that that's that's just awesome.
Speaker 1: You know, you have throughout your career treated people in
Speaker 1: their words, and that this is in the part of
Speaker 1: your book. I'm not going to embarrass you, but you've
Speaker 1: lived a life where you've made people feel valued, you
Speaker 1: made them feel hurt, you made them feel important, and
Speaker 1: that's so innately human to want others to, you know,
Speaker 1: give that back to you. My angel is quote people
Speaker 1: will forget what you said, forget what you did, but
Speaker 1: people will never forget how you made them feel. Different
Speaker 1: ways to say that it doesn't need to be about
Speaker 1: building a legacy when you're gone to those who you knew.
Speaker 1: It could be about how you treat people in a
Speaker 1: eli basis. How can people get better at that and
Speaker 1: embrace the idea that that how they make others feel
Speaker 1: is more important than what they say and even what
Speaker 1: they do. Sometimes well, I think I think you go
Speaker 1: back to the basics we discussed earlier in the podcast,
Speaker 1: and it's to stand back, and it's to look at
Speaker 1: how we approach others and do we approach them with kindness, respect, empathy?
Speaker 1: Do we listen uh to others um and do we
Speaker 1: engage them in a way where we're helping them uh
Speaker 1: in a way that maybe helps ourselves along the way.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was. I was humbled and even
Speaker 1: embarrassed by a number of the things that people we
Speaker 1: interviewed told my writing partner Rob gray Um. Some of
Speaker 1: them were funny. I love Bob bullsby the former athletic
Speaker 1: director at IOWA, who have known a long time, and
Speaker 1: then he was at Stanford and as you know, and
Speaker 1: he's now the commissioner the Big Twelve Conference. Um. He
Speaker 1: had a line in there that said that I always
Speaker 1: had a smile on my face, uh, and I was
Speaker 1: always always optimistic. But his great line was he could
Speaker 1: always trust me, he could always take my word. Uh.
Speaker 1: And he said, and raise in an industry with a
Speaker 1: lot of snake oil salts, snake oil salesman, uh, and
Speaker 1: that is a rare quality. And I after I read
Speaker 1: that in the transcript, I called Bob and I said,
Speaker 1: would you like to name names who you were thinking
Speaker 1: about when you said that? So I'd like to would
Speaker 1: be a much shorter list of people who aren't that,
Speaker 1: And you're on that list. But stereotypes exist for you,
Speaker 1: and I know there's some great people and there are
Speaker 1: some snake oil salesman to use Bob Bulls these words,
Speaker 1: but bottom line is um. You know, I you know,
Speaker 1: we talked about uh, you know, uh optimism, and we
Speaker 1: talked about rattitude. Uh. And you know again, I've just
Speaker 1: been influenced by so many people that I've been blessed
Speaker 1: to cross paths with people who have truly enriched my career,
Speaker 1: truly graced my life and to the extent that what
Speaker 1: every extent what you said about me earlier holds up, Chris,
Speaker 1: It's probably because of what I've gained from others. And
Speaker 1: that's why I wrote this book. Is I wanted to
Speaker 1: share those thoughts uh and and and and pass those
Speaker 1: along to others, as I said at the outset, that
Speaker 1: they may be inspired in the same way that those
Speaker 1: who we profiled an interview have inspired me. And so
Speaker 1: I'll bring it. I'll wrap it up with this Michael J. Fox.
Speaker 1: We started with Michael. Michael has beautiful thoughts on this
Speaker 1: um and he talks about optimisms and he makes the
Speaker 1: point that it's really rooted in gratitude, that optimism is
Speaker 1: sustainable when you keep coming back to that word gratitude
Speaker 1: and what follows from that acceptance, now that's again profound.
Speaker 1: He went on to say that accepting whatever it is
Speaker 1: that's happened to you, and learning to accept it for
Speaker 1: what it is, is what it's about. It doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that you can't endeavor to change, doesn't mean that you
Speaker 1: have to accept it as some form of punishment or
Speaker 1: a penance or anything else, but just to put it
Speaker 1: in its proper place. And if you do that, then
Speaker 1: you'll see how much the rest of your life you
Speaker 1: have to thrive in and then move on and be
Speaker 1: your best person possible. Optimism gratitude, that's where it starts.
Speaker 1: Optimism gratitude also a great place to end this. So
Speaker 1: grateful to Ray Cole for his time and of some
Speaker 1: of the ideas we talked about. Spoke to you, invite
Speaker 1: you to check out his book, Hanging with Winners, A
Speaker 1: Lifetime of connections, anecdotes and lessons learned. As always, grateful
Speaker 1: to my co executive producer Jennifer Dempster and A. Jason
Speaker 1: Whitehill for his editing skills, and to you for listening, supporting,
Speaker 1: and providing feedback on the podcast. I'll talk to you soon.