WEBVTT - HANGIN' WITH WINNERS 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:05.080 Hanging around people who have acquired wisdom achieved happiness. Listen 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:08.159 as they talk about what has helped them succeed, and 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.360 take it from me. There's plenty we can borrow and adapt. 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:14.680 It will help us thrive. My guest, Ray Cole, has 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.480 done that during his five decade career as a respected 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.040 television executive, and Ray wrote a book all about it, 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.960 Hanging with Winners. He shares wisdom from dozens of inspiring 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.600 figures like Michael J. Fox, Jimmy Kimmel, Diane Sawyer, Robin Roberts, 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:31.360 sports figures like Dick By tal and Jay Williams, and 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:35.640 elite executives like Bob Iger of Disney and George Bodenheiber, 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.320 who ran ESPN. In this conversation, Ray and I touched 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:44.480 on themes like leadership, integrity, curiosity, gratitude, acceptance, and many 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:49.400 more principles that helped create success. You've talked to and 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:54.200 been involved with so many successful people, and there's different 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.920 definitions for success, and there's many qualities that go into 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.840 that depending on the individual in the circumstances. But what 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.320 a common threads rated you find them on people who 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:08.440 have who have been inspirational defied odds and achieved. And 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.080 I don't mean just financial success, and I don't mean 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.360 even success as defined by others, but in their own way. 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.240 When I set out to write this book, what I 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:23.640 wanted to accomplish was helping people learn from others in 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:28.240 a way where they could maybe shape their own destiny, 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:33.640 where they could learn lessons from others, recognizing that being 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.360 a winner is not a word that you put on 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.240 a resume or in a bio, but it is a 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.680 word that means different things to different people, but ultimately 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:49.040 it conveys a happiness and a level of success, hopefully 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.320 in your life in a way that goes beyond the 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.600 traditional definition of being successful, much as you pointed out. 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.160 So what are some of those things? All the people 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.600 we talked to we interviewed over eighty people for the book, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.440 they would all start with something that is really foundational, 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.880 and that's your character. And in a word, that flows 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.000 from character is your integrity and how you have to 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:12.280 build that, You have to protect it, you have to 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:14.960 guard it um and you have to use it. And 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.639 what flows from character then is what they would all 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:21.600 cite as truly foundational, which is showing others and treating 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:25.399 others with kindness and respect and empathy. So that's where 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.160 I would start foundation one. And then what was interesting 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.360 to me was how many people that we interviewed, how 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:40.880 many winners cited the trait of curiosity being and remaining curious. UM. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.080 That wouldn't be that surprised you a bit. That wouldn't 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.080 have been what you might expected to hear one of 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:49.960 the top things that the successful people. It wouldn't have 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.200 surprised me that it was on the list. Uh. And 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.919 in my chapter seven, where we bring all the wisdom 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.600 from the previous six chapters together in a little nugget, US, 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.000 I wouldn't have surprised me that it was on the list. 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.359 It surprised me that it was cited so often, so 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:12.959 frequently as something that is truly critical, you know. And they, 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:15.800 you know, when they would cite that, what they would 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:20.440 do is they would talk about, um, the importance of 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.679 curiosity when it comes to developing new relationships. They would 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.600 talk about how important it is to you know, helping 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:32.959 you shape your perceptions UH and ideas UH. And people 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.839 people like Bob Iger and people like George Bodenheimer. They 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.240 talked about curiosity from the standpoint of how important it 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.800 was because it oftentimes can serve as the basis to 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:50.400 challenge outdated assumptions, you know, And so I remember, I 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.400 think it was Bob Iger who said, you know what, 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.640 curiosity is too oftentimes the fuel source for winning decisions. 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.200 And if you don't have that fuel source filled up, uh, 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.400 you may not make the right decision, or at least 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:06.640 the best decision you could. You're right both about George 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.040 Boden Iber ran ESPN for years, superbolate, with such a 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.840 decency in humanity, not always qualities that are top of 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.440 mind when you think of the stereotypical TV executive. But 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:18.920 he had them, and so did Bob Iger, and he's 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.799 one of the great CEOs that's ever been running any company. 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.640 You wrote three words that I've never seen put together 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:32.359 that uncertainty fuels him. Right, that's extraordinary because uncertainty for 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.360 so many people is just a source of anxiety. It's 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.480 a source of fear, so fear that can lead to paralysis. 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:43.040 And how could uncertainty be used as fuel when you're 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:50.000 making decisions to run a multibillion dollar corporation? Yeah, that 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:56.680 is right out of the Bob Iger profile. Uncertainty fuels Bob. Um. 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:58.600 And how can we learn that? How can we learned 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:01.240 to to emulate that? I mean, because it's human nature 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.760 that which we don't know is something that we we 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:11.760 could fear. Yeah, I pointed out how he I've known 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:15.400 Bob since the late seventies early eighties, and what I've 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:17.960 always found about Bob is that he finds the silver 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.960 lining in any situation. Um. You know, and we talked 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:23.599 to a lot of people about Bob and how he 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:28.440 illuminates the upside. We had executives tell us that, you know, 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.360 Bob would engage ondas that might seem crazy and easily 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.560 rushed off by other executives other people, Um. When others 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.440 were saying why, he would often challenge the people around 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.640 him by asking why not? Um. And I think what 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:45.799 we learned about Bob is that one of his greatest 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:49.200 strengths was being able to see pass the latest acquisition 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:53.520 and into the future and towards what things should look 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:57.040 like from his point of view. And boy was he president. 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:01.440 I can't tell you enough how that was demonstrated to 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.520 me time and time again. Uh. And and if you 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:10.320 look at his acquisitions, a Pixar Lucas uh, the m 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.680 c U, the Marshal, the Marvel character universe, um. And 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.560 then he caps it all off with a with a 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:20.560 sixty billion dollar transaction low seventy billion dollar transaction with 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:25.839 twenty one century Fox. Pretty amazing because Bob gave a 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:30.840 speech to the National Association of Broadcasters at their annual 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.880 meeting way back in the late nineties. He wasn't even 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:40.000 chairman and CEO that UM, and he talked about if 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.120 I can find Chris, I want to read just to 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.800 you because it is amazing to me. Uh. This was 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:49.560 from the opening keynote address. Now think about this. This 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:55.000 is April of n Okay, and in part he said 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:59.279 the following. The multitude of decisions we face today creates 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.400 quite a chance olenge to any long term planning process. 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.560 None of us knows exactly where we're going, but we 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:09.400 can't afford to stand still. The changes affecting our business 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.920 over the past decade have been much more sweeping and 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.920 consequential than most of us appreciated. Today's viewer bears no 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.320 resemblance to the viewer of yesterday, and the changes over 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.600 the next ten years will be so vast that no 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:24.960 one can predict with any assurance where the business is headed. 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.120 If we continue to ignore the change or attempt to 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.800 conduct business as usual, we won't be conducting much business 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:35.080 at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm still an optimist 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.600 about the television business. I'm just not a cheerleader for 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.840 the status quo that's in the nineties, right, That's when 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.520 cable was still going strong and nobody even conceived that 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:50.960 streaming what somebody knew extreaming was. And look look at 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:55.560 where he look at where he has looked. He stepped down, 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.320 as you know, at the end of last year um 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:02.080 to to a deserved retire erman. But his fifteen years 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:06.160 as CEO was nothing less than transformational for the Walt 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:10.520 Disney Company. Uh. And it was because of that statement 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:15.160 you lead with about uncertainty fuels Bob. It's reflected in 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:19.720 that speech for all the uncertainty about where our business 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.200 was going. Uh, he tracked it better than most. When 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.600 I say prescient, boy, I mean it with a capital P. 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:31.480 It's amazing. And he was just um someone that I 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:35.000 enjoyed spending time with and being around with the few 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.960 times that we were, especially after he moved on from 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:40.680 the ABC Television network, we didn't see him as often. 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:44.160 I have to tell you one last story about Bob Eyer. So, 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.480 Bob wrote a best selling book, and again I would 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.000 It's been out several years, but I would encourage your 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.839 podcast listeners, if they haven't read it, to read it. 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:56.320 It's called The Ride of a Lifetime. And one day 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:58.920 my wife comes and she she says, here's a FedEx 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:02.200 package for you. Here, it's from Bob Iger and I go, really, 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:04.679 So I opened it up and it's a copy of 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.320 his book, and on the inside of the book what 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:13.440 he wrote was, in so many words paraphrasing Ray, Uh, 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.480 we have had the Ride of the lifetime and it 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:18.920 has been an honor for me to have you a 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:23.000 part of it. Best always, Bob. So I wrote my 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.800 book that we're talking about today, and not to be outdone, 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:29.320 I fed FedEx him a copy. Chris and I put 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.600 a note in the front that says, Bob, we both 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:36.560 had the Rides of the Lifetime. The difference is yours 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:40.800 was the matter horn and mine more closely resembled the teacups. 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:48.280 Best to Ray, I'm sure he appreciated the the original 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:54.320 like Disneyland reference. That's good. I mean it's not always 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:58.280 running multibillion dollar corporations, though, uncertainty in the lives of anyone, 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.480 and then finding a way to say, oh, I'm gonna 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.200 be inspired by that. I'm not gonna be scared by that. 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:07.199 I'm not going to view a possibility as as or 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:12.280 a hurdle has something to be fear, but embraced. It's 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.240 when you talk to people. I mean, how difficult is 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.760 it to get that message across and what are some 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:20.320 of the tricks you think too to employ in an 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.199 everyday life. If you're not a Bob Biker, but you're 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.280 facing uncertainty and you're facing challenges and you just see 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:30.560 red lights instead of green lights, well, I think the 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:36.320 first thing you understand is um the need to accept failure. 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:40.040 And with so many people we interviewed for the book, 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:42.480 they framed it in a way where you learn to 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.760 embrace adversity. It's not something that you fear. To use 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.560 the word we just used with Bob Biger, Uh, fear 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:54.360 was not in his vocabulary. Um. Learn how to accept 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:59.080 that that adversity and and learn from it, uh and 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.920 take it with you to the next challenge that you 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:06.079 face along the way. I just think that is so critical. 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.839 Michael J. Fox is somebody that I know you're close 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.200 to and you've you've written about him in your book. 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:18.280 Because Michael J. Fox took up golf after being diagnosed 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.480 with Parkinson's disease. It's been thirty years since that diagnosis. 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:24.920 You wrote that that was maybe the most optimistic thing 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:27.839 he'd ever done, or that was his characterization. Let's take 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:30.080 the most challenging game we can think of, the hardest 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.440 to learn, the most frustrating, and we're gonna take it 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:36.760 up after getting diagnosed for a disease that is physically debilitating. 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.440 I find that remarkable and inspiring. Yeah, in the case 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.480 of Michael, it might be appropriate to go back to 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.280 the future. And by that I mean I first met 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:50.320 Michael at an affiliate meeting in Orlando, Florida, at the 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.720 time that Spin City was on the ABC Television Networks 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.600 primetime schedule. The show had just moved into the top ten. 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.120 Um people think of family ties when it comes to 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.880 Michael in terms of television, I think of I think 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:07.280 of Spin City, and it's just to this day, it's 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:10.160 it's saddens me to think about where that show might 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.480 have gone, could have gone if he hadn't been diagnosed 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.000 with Parkinson's. So we first met there. We stayed in 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:20.640 touch through the years and again then I fast forward 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:25.319 to UH Sometime in the late around two thousand nine 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:30.360 or ten, Michael wrote a book, and I would encourage 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.040 your podcast listeners to check it out. It's been around 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:37.000 a while, but it's called Always Looking Up, The Adventures 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:42.160 of an Incurable Optivist. That book has so many life 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.199 lessons in it. Chris Um and I read that book. 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:51.160 ABC did a primetime schedule featuring Michael and of all people, 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.440 Bill Murray, playing at a golf course that I play 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:56.640 often called Sleepy Hollow, where Bill Murray is a member. 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.680 And I called Michael's office the next day and I said, 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:05.040 I'm involved with a Champions Tour pro am event in 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:09.000 Des Moines, Iowa that raises money for kids. I'd love 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.400 Michael to be my guest. And in twenty four hours 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.680 he said yes, and he flew up. We played golf 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.800 together for the first time, and as you pointed out, 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.680 and as I do in the book as well, playing 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.720 golf with Michael J. Fox is really a thrill. Here's 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:28.600 a guy who took up the games. You pointed out 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:32.280 after being diagnosed with Parkinson's and it is amazing to 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:37.280 watch his determination to play that game. Uh, it is 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.400 just so much fun. And we've played golf half a 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.240 dozen times since, and every time I do, I walk 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.280 away thinking that was one of the best experiences of 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:52.120 my life. He's very self deprecating after doing various jobs 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.199 in the show business, where he's so gifted and so 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.400 innately talented, he says, it's great to do something that 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.720 I suck in. Now he's better than that in golf, 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.240 but just imagine most people are fearful of that. And 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.319 he plays golf in these proem events with galleries and people, 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.920 so he's not afraid to put that out there and 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.320 and do it in public. But imagine wanting to take 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.800 up something because it's tough and because you suck in it, 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:21.520 it's great to play it. Yeah. His philosophy on life 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.520 is amazing, Chris Um. He has a great line, you know, 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.480 the life is a ride strapped in hang on and 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:32.560 keep your eyes wide open. And he embodies that philosophy himself, 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.120 and as I say in the book, to do what 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.480 he's done, to take on challenges and then use them 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:43.040 as platforms for change, to challenge himself and to do 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.040 so in a way that inspires others. I don't think 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.840 it gets much better than that. Yeah, you wrote that 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:52.120 he has turned adversity into a platform for growth. That 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.440 that's a beautiful thing. It applies to lots of people 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.080 because adversity comes in many forms. To be fair, though, 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.000 Michael did wrestle with some stuff he wrote in his 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.960 own book about turning the alcohol after getting that devas 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:03.920 hitting diagnosis. He was in a pretty dark place for 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:05.800 a couple of years. His wife Tracy helped him out. 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.520 His son was young at the time, and and a 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:10.760 mirror was kind of put up to him and it 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:12.600 showed him he was headed in a way that he 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:14.360 didn't like, and he was able to dig out. And 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.880 to me, Ray, that makes it even more compelling that 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.320 he had to wrestle with some dark stuff that that 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.760 a lot of people do when they're initially hit with 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.560 that adversity and then work through it. You know, you 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:26.680 and I have a mutual friend who used to be 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.000 an executive at ESPN named Jerry Madela. We all called 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.720 him g Matt. G Matt has a great line in 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.000 my book, uh, and it applies in this instance, and 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.160 what G. Matt told me was that if you want 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:43.280 to impress me, show me your accolades. If you want 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.560 to impact me, show me your scars. And that that's 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.360 what Michael has done in several books in opening up, 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:56.120 sharing those personal challenges that he had, how he first 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:00.160 reacted to being saddled with a Parkinson's diagnosis and then 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:04.560 realizing he could do something with that and and establishing 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:09.800 the Michael J. Fox Parkinson's Research Foundation. It's amazing joining 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:14.280 forces with a larger than life figure like Michael himself 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.960 in in Muhammad ali Um and as Michael is found 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:19.880 of saying, who else would you rather have in your 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.680 corner than the great one? One of the great things 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.800 about hanging with winners that turned out to be special 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.720 to me was that we talked to winners to do 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.400 the book, to write the book, but we also talked 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:36.120 to winners about other winners. And in one such case, 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:40.040 it was George Stephanopolis talking about Michael J. Fox and 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.800 again he knows Michael as well as anyone, and Michael 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.120 told us that just being around him as an awful 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.440 lot of fun, you'd never know the burdens he's carrying 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.720 because he addresses the challenges with his famous optimism, and 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.440 he maintains all that not in a saccharin way, but 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.040 in a way that's rooted in reality. Does not I 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.160 what's happening or denying what he's dealing with, but rather 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.720 Michael puts it in perspective. He simply shows everyone the 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:12.320 power of perseverance and hope while addressing whatever it is 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:17.159 that life throws at you. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, it 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:22.080 is authentic, not Sacharin. And I think he invites all 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.119 that boy playing golf with him, playing golf with him 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:25.520 and Bill Murray would be that would be a life 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.440 peak experience that that I'm misimagining those two together, that 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.680 would be a lot of laughs. Right, You're right about 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:33.880 Jay Williams in your book, and Jay Williams is someone 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:35.760 had to pivot and had to reinvent himself and had 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.240 to face a different kind of adversity all American to 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:40.240 Duke when a championship he has headed to a certain 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.840 NBA start him gets in a motorcycle accident and that 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:44.960 career has taken away from him. Of course he's gone 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:49.320 on to a career in television, but but to two 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:55.719 face that kind of disappointment, that kind of loss of 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.600 your identity right as an athlete, as a basketball player. 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.680 And I know you introduced um with Martin Luther King Lion. 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.240 You said we must accept finite disappointments, but never lose 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:11.639 infinite hope. That's powerfully said, like many things that MLK said, 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:14.960 but easier said than done. I mean, that's a that's 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.600 more than a disappointment, that's a devastation. And he found 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.800 a way to not lose hope and to pivot. And 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.720 Jay is an interesting, interesting character in your book as well. 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.200 And I think, like Michael J. Fox, I'd like to 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.480 start by going back to the future. Chris, A lot 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.480 of your podcast listeners might not know what you and 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.560 I know about Jay, and that is what a remarkable 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.560 basketball player it was. You have a lot of young 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:43.680 people listening. It's been twenty years since since Jay stepped 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:47.400 away from Duke University. It's been twenty one years since 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.399 he led the Blue Devils to a national championship, and 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.560 I'm not sure a lot of people and they see 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.520 him on TV today know just what a great player 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.600 he was. In my lifetime. He had the quickest first 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.480 step off a dribble of anybody I've ever seen. He's amazing. 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.280 And he led the Blue Devils, as I said, to 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.800 the two thousand one national championship. They lost in his 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.159 junior year. He turned pro after that. So in his 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:15.000 last year or junior year, you know, they lost that game, uh, 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.840 in a lead aid game to the eventual national champion, 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.080 who I think was Indiana. Don't hold me to that, um, 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.280 And they lost by one point. And so here he 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.880 is at the pinnacle of his career and turns pro. 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.320 Great trivia question. He was the Consensus Player of the Year, 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.719 the Wooden Award winner. Uh you name it, uh an 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:42.000 ABC All American Consensus All American. UM. He was the 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:44.880 number two player chosen in the draft. You remember who 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:51.320 was number one? You're no, I don't yell ming. Okay, 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.120 that's a trip. It's kind of a trick question. Jay 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:58.000 was the best college basketball player by far, but he 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.760 was chosen number two h because of y'alming being drafted 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.480 ahead of him. So now now I'm gonna go to 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:06.919 your question with that backdrop to make sure people know 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.679 what a special special player. He's drafted number two by 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:12.960 the Chicago Bulls and he goes and he plays one 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.640 rookie year, uh and he has a horrific accident that's 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.720 been well documented, and that accident put him not at 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:23.879 the intersection of his career, but at the intersection of 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:28.000 life itself. And as we talked in the book, he 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:31.240 could have chosen to stop, he could have stayed where 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.399 he was, but he chose instead to make the choice 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.719 to see the adversity that he was confronted with as 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.399 an opportunity, an opportunity to learn and to grow and 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.359 to move forward, all the while knowing and having to accept, 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.960 which was very difficult for him. If you read his 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:51.719 own book, where he, like Michael J. Fox Boy, he 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:56.560 shows scars, not just it's not about accolades. He talks 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:00.040 about it and how he had to put aside the 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.639 fact that he would never play professional basketball again. It 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:05.800 was no longer in his path and it's like he 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.199 likes to say, it was no longer a part of 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.520 his journey. So I think that the story of Jake 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:15.119 Williams in the book is so instructive to people with 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.600 everyday decisions that they have a choice to make and 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.440 having to understand that their inevitable setbacks. Well maybe not 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:27.200 as tragic and severe and graphic as Jay's. That it's 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.320 their choice to learn from experiences and to find ways 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:34.320 to navigate them differently. Um, the next time it comes up. 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:37.480 And but Jay was what Ja told us is that 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.679 he believed strongly that too often people get fixated and 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:45.720 become so myopic, myopic that they may have lost uh, 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:48.800 that they don't pay attention to what they could have learned, 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.119 what they could have gained from that adversity in that 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:56.480 negative experience. That's powerful. You know. We talked about curiosity, 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.800 and we talked about character, and we talked about embracing 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:04.920 a versity. Another one is is mentors. George Bodenheimer talked 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:08.400 about the critical importance of mentors and to not think 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.720 you have to do things on your own. Um. George 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:15.159 said made the point that life doesn't the world doesn't 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.640 work that way. UM. You need to reach out and 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:21.679 learn from others who can fill that mentoring role for you. 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:25.040 And then when you had the opportunity ten or twenty 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:27.800 years later, it's time for you to pay that back 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:30.840 and serve as a mentor to others. You know, Chris 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:33.560 and our interview with you, you you talked about the 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.320 uh the influence that the late John Saunders had on you. 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:41.280 He in essence had a mentoring role for you, did 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.199 he not? Oh, John was a very important mentor. There 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:48.000 were others, but he was just older, wiser, more experienced, 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.640 and he was generous with his time. And I looked 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:54.280 at his example. I without that, I would have been lost. 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:57.720 I think you come into this this business, like any business, 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.440 like anything in life. I think approaching it with offidence 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:04.040 but humility. And it's very hard when you're young and 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:06.720 you think you've got a future, you think you've got 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:11.960 potential to to listen far more than you talk when 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:15.400 you're new at something. And I I got smacked down 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:17.720 rad I was in a newsroom in Denver. I got 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:21.040 publicly humiliated by an old veteran. And I had it 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:22.959 coming because I didn't even know what I didn't know. 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:25.480 But you're on there, you're sure, you're sure yourself. And 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:27.560 that was one of the most important things that ever 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:30.640 happened to my broadcasting career. I always used as an example. 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:32.720 I wasn't on the air, but it was one of 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:35.560 the most important experiences I had. So in coming to 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:38.760