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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, what's going on with you?

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Speaker 1: Well, I have this case that I'm going to present

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Speaker 1: to you that has a little story attached to it.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think i've told you this story yet.

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Speaker 1: About five years ago or something, when I had tenfold

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Speaker 1: more wicked, I had, you know, several people, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people actually would email me and say, Hey, do

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Speaker 1: you want to do the story that story? And there

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Speaker 1: was a woman who said, I think you should look

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Speaker 1: into a story called the Haystack Murders, and I think

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Speaker 1: you'll really like it, so I look up haystack murders

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Speaker 1: and it points me towards what turned out to be

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Speaker 1: my fourth book.

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Speaker 2: You know, the.

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Speaker 1: Listener's all bell about Sarah Maria Cornell who was found

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Speaker 1: hanging from a haystack poll.

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Speaker 2: This is different then, because we did an episode that

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Speaker 2: involved a male that died with haystacks that caught fire, right.

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Speaker 1: So that's a different You're right, that's a different one, okay.

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Speaker 1: And she wasn't talking about that one. What she was saying,

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Speaker 1: you know what I was led to, Sarah Maria Cornell,

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Speaker 1: you know the subject of my book, hanging from a

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Speaker 1: haystack poll in Fall River, Massachusetts in eighteen thirty two.

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Speaker 1: And I dig into this and I said, this is

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Speaker 1: not a Tenfold story, this is a book book. I

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Speaker 1: think it was really I felt so significant to me,

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Speaker 1: very female centric, and I had not written a book

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Speaker 1: like that before. And so I emailed her back and

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Speaker 1: I said, just so you know, you know, I have

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Speaker 1: a book contract based on this idea that you told me,

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Speaker 1: the haystack murder. And I said, I just really appreciate

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Speaker 1: you passing it on. You won't hear it on Tenfold,

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Speaker 1: but you can read it in a book in a

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Speaker 1: few years, and thanks for passing on Sarah Maria Cornell's story.

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Speaker 1: And she said, what are you talking about. That is

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Speaker 1: not what I was talking about. That's not the Haystack

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Speaker 1: murder I was discussing. Really, she had only said one line,

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Speaker 1: he Haystack murder. And she said, that's not what I meant, okay,

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Speaker 1: And so I said, what the hell did you mean?

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Speaker 1: And then she sent me the link, And that is

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Speaker 1: the story we are doing today. So if she had

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Speaker 1: told me the correct story what I'm going to tell you,

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Speaker 1: I would have had a completely different book. So now

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Speaker 1: I said that, I thought, okay, well I might as

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Speaker 1: well do the real Haystack what this woman intended for

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Speaker 1: me to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, instead of a book, you got an episode. There

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Speaker 2: you go.

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Speaker 1: I got an episode. There you go. And it's a

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Speaker 1: good story too. So let's go ahead and set the scene.

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Speaker 1: So we are in Lodi, California.

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Speaker 2: I know, load eye well, well good.

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Speaker 1: This is nineteen twenty three. Love the time period, Love Love, Love.

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Speaker 1: It in the middle of Prohibition, right before people were

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Speaker 1: spending stupid amounts of money and the Roaring twenties, and

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Speaker 1: then of course the crash in twenty nine and the depression.

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Speaker 1: So this is in load Eye, which was an agricultural

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Speaker 1: city in San Joaquin Valley. So at this time, and

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Speaker 1: you can tell me if this is the case now too.

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Speaker 1: At this time there were flour mills, vineyards orchards, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of cattle ranching, and that's what the area

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Speaker 1: was known for in nineteen twenty three. How would you

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Speaker 1: describe it now?

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Speaker 2: You know, I can't. I can't speak to the flour

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Speaker 2: mills vineyards for sure, which is surprising because you know

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Speaker 2: where I lived in California. I was twenty minutes away

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Speaker 2: from Napa, Sonoma, you know, world renowned wineries. But load Eye,

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Speaker 2: which is Central Valley, I would never have thought that

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Speaker 2: that would be a good place for vineyards. But they

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Speaker 2: have a lot of vineyards, huge vineyards, and in fact,

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Speaker 2: I became quite a fan of what they call old

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Speaker 2: vine Zenfandel. So they have these old, old vineyards with

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Speaker 2: these gnarled up vines of grapes of zenvidel variety, and

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Speaker 2: then they produce you know, wine from that, and I

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Speaker 2: loved it, you know, so I was you know, there's

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Speaker 2: multiple different vineyards that I would drink, but I would

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Speaker 2: go through load eye all the time to get down

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Speaker 2: to Stockton when I was investigating Golden State Killer, and

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Speaker 2: I'd be driving through these vineyards, you know. And again

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Speaker 2: it's central Valley. It gets super hot in the summertime.

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Speaker 2: There's a huge wind turbine farm right outside of Lodi. Now,

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Speaker 2: as far as cattle, it wouldn't surprise me that there

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Speaker 2: would be a lot of cattle out there, because there's

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Speaker 2: cattle everywhere in northern California. But I don't recall that specifically.

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Speaker 2: But I also met with multiple people in Lodi or

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Speaker 2: lived in Lodi during the time of my investigation with

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Speaker 2: Golden State Killer.

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Speaker 1: Well that's where we are. It's Wednesday, September twelfth, nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty three. So it's important for me to talk about

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Speaker 1: the history section of this just because I think this

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Speaker 1: is an interesting time. I told you Prohibition, it's before

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Speaker 1: this big infusion of money. So this is a few

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Speaker 1: years after World War One. The war was very hard

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Speaker 1: on San Juan Quing Valley community because and this was

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Speaker 1: what was interesting, the trickle down effect of a war. Okay,

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Speaker 1: during World War One, European farmers, many of them had

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Speaker 1: to leave or shut down. During World War One, because

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Speaker 1: they were either fighting or you know, the resources of

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Speaker 1: their farm had to be used for something else. So

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Speaker 1: this meant that the American specifically the farmers in San

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Speaker 1: Joaquin Valley were told to ramp up production. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: they ramped up production, they got a lot of bank loans.

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Speaker 1: And then when the war ended, that's what made some

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Speaker 1: things crash for these farmers because the European farmers came

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Speaker 1: back and the demand for American agricultural products plummeted, and

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Speaker 1: so the crop prices then crashed and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of surplus. And so we have in nineteen twenty three

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Speaker 1: in this area a lot of people who had to

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Speaker 1: file for bankruptcy and you know, people who were in

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of debt. So that's where we are. It sounds,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's beautiful and all. I love agricultural land,

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Speaker 1: but it was direstraits for a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: this area in this time.

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Speaker 2: No I could see that. And then what six years

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Speaker 2: later you have the Great Depression starting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I always say it's my favorite. It's

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Speaker 1: not the favorite for people who lived through it, but

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Speaker 1: it's my favorite time period because you know, you've got

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Speaker 1: early twenties prohibition crack down, it doesn't work. There's the

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Speaker 1: rise of criminal enterprise. You've got, oh, here's tons of money.

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Speaker 1: Any hairbrain scheme you want will give you the money

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Speaker 1: for it. And then the crash in nineteen twenty nine

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Speaker 1: and then the depression, all in a decade. It's just

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Speaker 1: pretty incredible. And the crime that's developed, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: what American Sherlock. My second book was about the crime

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Speaker 1: that happens and how how interesting it is to see

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Speaker 1: the way criminals adapt and they're always a step ahead

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Speaker 1: of you know, the investigators who then quickly have to

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Speaker 1: pivot too. And so you just see that like these

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Speaker 1: these investigators in the twenties just constantly like a half

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Speaker 1: a step behind because they think they've got a hold

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Speaker 1: of the criminals in the way they're doing something, whatever

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Speaker 1: the scheme is, and then the criminals go, Okay, well

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Speaker 1: we're going to figure out another way to do it.

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Speaker 1: And so that the kind of feel is like a

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Speaker 1: ketchup feeling for me that whole time period.

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Speaker 2: It's still the same today. I know, criminals do something

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Speaker 2: new and then law enforcement has to figure it out

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Speaker 2: and adapt.

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Speaker 1: Yep, Okay, here's the crime. It's nine pm. And as

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Speaker 1: I said, so if we're looking at we have an

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Speaker 1: outdoor scene. So that's why I'm telling you. It's September twelfth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty three, so this would have been warm still right,

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Speaker 1: Central Valley would have been freezing still. I think he's

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Speaker 1: San Francisco, but warm right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I will tell you September can be like

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Speaker 2: the hottest summer month in this part of California. I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be surprised if it got over one hundred degrees.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me tell you about this. So nine o'clock,

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Speaker 1: there's a farmer who sees a burning haystack on a

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Speaker 1: ranch called the William Lange Ranch. He rushes to help.

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Speaker 1: All he can see is a haystack. And this does

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Speaker 1: sound like our other story. Remember, like the two big

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Speaker 1: hay bales, massive hay bales and England are on fire

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Speaker 1: and nobody can see anything until it burns down a

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Speaker 1: little bit. And then in that case, you saw a

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Speaker 1: dead body. In this case, it's a car that's on

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Speaker 1: fire and in the back seat there is a smoldering body.

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Speaker 1: And I have a picture of the car, not of

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Speaker 1: the body. I'm sorry but I do have a picture

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Speaker 1: of the car. So if you open up what you have, listen,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's not the greatest photo, but I think

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Speaker 1: you'll get the idea. It has been just for the record,

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Speaker 1: burned to the metal is what they say, completely charred

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Speaker 1: the body and the car has been burned down to

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Speaker 1: the metal.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So what I'm looking at is and part of

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Speaker 2: it is, you know, the context we are talking about

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty three, So what did cars look like in

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty three? And so now that I'm adjusting to

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Speaker 2: that almost Model T type of vehicle, I'm seeing a

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Speaker 2: vehicle that from left to right in this photograph, the

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Speaker 2: left is the front of the vehicle. There's the engine compartment,

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Speaker 2: there's a passenger area. Then you have the rear wheel

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Speaker 2: and the rear part of the vehicle. The metal on

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Speaker 2: this vehicle has softened to the point to where the

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Speaker 2: rear wheels, not the tires, the tires are gone, they burned,

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Speaker 2: but the wheels themselves a metal part has softened to

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Speaker 2: the point to where, like the left driver's side wheel

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Speaker 2: is bent at a ninety degree angle just from the

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Speaker 2: weight of the vehicle itself. With this type of photo.

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Speaker 2: I can't see, you know, the charring of the vehicle

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Speaker 2: or anything like that, but I can see where there's

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Speaker 2: been structural compromise as a result of heat combustible aspects

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Speaker 2: of the vehicle, like let's say, a wooden steering wheel gone,

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Speaker 2: upholstery gone. You know, it is just a crippled hule

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Speaker 2: of what used to be a car.

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Speaker 1: So that's what this body was found in. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I guess one of my questions is we did do

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Speaker 1: the spontaneous combustion story where there's a body found in

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Speaker 1: between these two haystacks. Would this sort of destruction indicate

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Speaker 1: to you that this either this fire either had to

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Speaker 1: have gone on for a very long time or there

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Speaker 1: must have been an accelerant added to this fire. I

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Speaker 1: don't think this is spontaneous combustion.

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Speaker 2: You know, let's talk car fires. Have you ever been,

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Speaker 2: you know, driving on the freeway and seen a vehicle

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Speaker 2: on fire that's off to the side, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: So vehicles do have combustible materials in them, but they

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Speaker 2: also have an accelerant that is present with inside the

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Speaker 2: vehicle gasoline or diesel. Right, And the same thing with

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Speaker 2: vehicles in the nineteen twenties. Now I'm not sure there

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Speaker 2: was a transition at one point with vehicles from poscene

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Speaker 2: to gasoline, and I'm not sure when that transition occurred,

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Speaker 2: But for this discussion, I don't I don't think it matters.

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Speaker 2: You know, fundamentally, you do have an accelerant. So if

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Speaker 2: you're an arson investigator and looking at this vehicle, you know,

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Speaker 2: part of the complexity is, well, there's already an accelerant presence.

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Speaker 2: So if there was something that could ignite a fire

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Speaker 2: and then the onboard fuel as an accelerant enhance that fire,

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Speaker 2: it could potentially cover up you know, an offender, let's say,

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Speaker 2: dousing a vehicle, you know, with some sort of flammable material.

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Speaker 2: You know. So this is where now it's you know,

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Speaker 2: the the investigation. Like if I'm if I'm processing this vehicle,

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Speaker 2: you know, the body is first and foremost. And I've

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Speaker 2: literally had this scenario in my past. As far as

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Speaker 2: the case, I will tell you that bodies and vehicles

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Speaker 2: that have been burned this is not a fun thing

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Speaker 2: to deal with. But it's also working with fire marshals,

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Speaker 2: with arson investigators, you know, State Fire Marshal's office, you know,

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Speaker 2: whoever you can get out. Okay, So where is the

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Speaker 2: point of origin of the fire. Does it look like

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Speaker 2: it was caused by an accident, you know, something within

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Speaker 2: the vehicle that you know caused the fire to occur,

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Speaker 2: and then of course you know the onboard acceleerantic nights

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Speaker 2: or do we have evidence that there was intentional fire

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Speaker 2: setting that occurred in order to cover up a crime?

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Speaker 2: You know, and that's typically if you have a body

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Speaker 2: in a vehicle. Let's say the body is in the

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Speaker 2: trunk of the vehicle, good chance that, yeah, somebody set

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Speaker 2: fire to the vehicle in order to try to cover

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Speaker 2: up the crime and eliminate evidence.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So when the coroner shows up and the sheriff

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Speaker 1: show up at the haystack, the car so twisted that

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Speaker 1: nobody recognizes the car, even though this is a small town,

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Speaker 1: they are able to decipher or the license plate and

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Speaker 1: so they're able to figure out who this is registered

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Speaker 1: to number one, number two. There is a identifiable set

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Speaker 1: of keys that are in the fire, in some of

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Speaker 1: the clothing, and also the class from a coin purse

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Speaker 1: that's also identifiable. When I tell you who this person is,

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Speaker 1: it's confirmed by his wife who sees these items and

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Speaker 1: says this is it. Nobody can tell from the car.

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Speaker 1: They have to go and figure it out through the registration.

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Speaker 2: So would men back in the day carry a coin purse.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's more of a clasp, so it's like a

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Speaker 1: class from a coin purse. That would not have been unusual, okay,

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Speaker 1: because people use coins a lot more than you know

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Speaker 1: we do now, sure, obviously. So those were the two

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Speaker 1: things that stood out to you know, investigators. And they

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Speaker 1: know who it is, and they said, it's a guy

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Speaker 1: named Alexander Alex Kells. So he goes by Alex. So

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Speaker 1: he was very prominent Alex He was a member of

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Speaker 1: a lot of different social organizations and a lot kind

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Speaker 1: of set in agriculture type organizations. He was very well liked.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people said he was amazing because he's

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Speaker 1: a self made man. He came from Germany in eighteen

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Speaker 1: eighty five and he was a butcher, but a very

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Speaker 1: wealthy butcher. So he had apprenticed at several California butcheries

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Speaker 1: and had slowly built up his wealth and by nineteen seventeen,

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Speaker 1: so this is six years before he died, he was

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Speaker 1: in a position to buy his own ranch. So he

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Speaker 1: bought a ranch, and he also started two slaughterhouses. You know,

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Speaker 1: they were both meat markets essentially, but you know, he

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Speaker 1: would slaughter the animals himself. And he was very, very wealthy.

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Speaker 1: So one meat market was located in a modern brick building.

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Speaker 1: It was top of the line, had all the best equipment.

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Speaker 1: He had a lot of cold storage rooms for hanging meat,

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Speaker 1: and you know, enamel walls, and a modern sales floor.

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Speaker 1: And in nineteen twenty three when he died, his fortune

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Speaker 1: was estimated to be a quarter of a million dollars

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Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty three money, which is almost five million today.

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Speaker 1: So your victim has a lot of money. We don't

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Speaker 1: know anything else about him to think it was very

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Speaker 1: you know, well liked and he had a lot of money. Sure,

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Speaker 1: three days later, we've got two doctors who are going

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Speaker 1: to take a look at Alex's remains. They are only

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Speaker 1: three teeth present in Alex's skull, so they think that

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Speaker 1: the fire must have been so intense that it consumed

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Speaker 1: the rest of the teeth. They wonder if the skull

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Speaker 1: was crushed, but because of the fire, they can't tell,

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Speaker 1: and they don't find any bullet wounds. So the cause

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Speaker 1: of death is a mystery for them.

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Speaker 2: Teeth even like in crematoriums, you know, teeth end up

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Speaker 2: without mechanical disruption, end up surviving super high temperatures, much

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Speaker 2: more so than the surrounding bone. So that's where I'm

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Speaker 2: a little bit not sure what they're observing. There's only

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Speaker 2: three teeth present, why is that? And then the other

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Speaker 2: thing what ends up happening with a fire with a

302
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Speaker 2: human body when it is being superheated, the skull bursts,

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Speaker 2: you know, the brain in essence becomes like, for lack

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Speaker 2: of a better term, like a boiling liquid. And so

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Speaker 2: now that the skull will burst, and once the skull bursts,

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Speaker 2: it can collapse in and on itself. So this is

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Speaker 2: where Now are they recognizing that's the phenomena that they

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Speaker 2: are dealing with, or is there actual violence that occurred,

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Speaker 2: like let's say during a bludgeting. A competent pathologist can

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Speaker 2: determine this, you know, this is where you need to

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Speaker 2: know what you are looking at.

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Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you one thing they're looking at

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Speaker 1: when they look at this, I mean they kind of

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Speaker 1: describe it as a skeletal remains. When they look at

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Speaker 1: the remains, they find out that at his hands are

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Speaker 1: tied behind his back.

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Speaker 2: That's a clue.

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Speaker 1: There's a big funeral, three thousand people. That's how much

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Speaker 1: people like this guy Alex kills. They are questioning different

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Speaker 1: residents about Alex and trying to figure out what his

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Speaker 1: last movements were. Was he talking to somebody that people

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Speaker 1: did know or didn't know, what was his behavior like

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff, And they start to put together

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Speaker 1: a timeline because small town ye people saw him. So

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Speaker 1: this is what happens. So his body is discovered at

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Speaker 1: nine pm. So we go back twelve hours. Between eight

327
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Speaker 1: o'clock and nine o'clock am, he was at a public

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Speaker 1: employment office and he was hiring somebody, you know, which

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Speaker 1: is something he did often to feed stock on his ranch.

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Speaker 1: And then at ten o'clock he had met with an

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Speaker 1: unknown woman and they were spotted driving toward an abandoned ranch.

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Speaker 1: From eleven o'clock until four pm, he worked at his

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Speaker 1: butcher shop in Lode Eye, and he went to a

334
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Speaker 1: restaurant during a break, and at four twenty he and

335
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Speaker 1: another man waved at a fuller lumber driver. They were

336
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Speaker 1: headed north of town in Alex's car. The one who

337
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Speaker 1: ends up no one that ends up being burned up

338
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Speaker 1: about five o'clock. He has seen killing time and snacking on.

339
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Speaker 1: I don't mean to WinCE at the sardines.

340
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Speaker 2: Oh I can't. I can't eat sardines.

341
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Speaker 1: Don't get upset if you guys like sardines and he

342
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Speaker 1: is eating. He's snacking on sardines. In Loacheford, I've never

343
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,080
Speaker 1: been there, which is about eight miles northeast of Lodi, Okay.

344
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Speaker 1: Six forty five, a carpenter saw Alex. He was alone

345
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Speaker 1: this time. He was driving south and he was the

346
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Speaker 1: last time he was seen alive was about seven thirty PM,

347
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Speaker 1: so about an hour and a half before his body

348
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Speaker 1: was discovered, and he was driving in the direction of

349
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Speaker 1: the haystack.

350
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Speaker 2: Okay, so he's taken himself out towards at least where

351
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 2: he ultimately is found, like maybe goes to meet somebody.

352
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Speaker 2: And what time was that again?

353
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Speaker 1: So the last time people saw him was at seven

354
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Speaker 1: point thirty. He was by himself, and the sheriff is

355
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Speaker 1: trying to track down the man who Alex hired at

356
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Speaker 1: the public Employment office. There's no record of this man,

357
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,679
Speaker 1: which is unusual, but they said sometimes that happened, so

358
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Speaker 1: they don't have a name that they can look up

359
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: and say, Alex Kells hired this guy, and nobody knows

360
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Speaker 1: who who this woman is.

361
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Speaker 2: And it's also hard to say that that interaction earlier

362
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Speaker 2: in the day had anything to do with this homicide. Yep.

363
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Speaker 2: And I would say the fact that his hands are

364
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Speaker 2: bound behind his back. I think any pathologist looking at

365
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Speaker 2: this set of circumstances would probably say, yes, you know,

366
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Speaker 2: this is death at the hands of another homicide. But

367
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Speaker 2: now is it possible, you know, maybe he odeed and

368
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Speaker 2: now you got somebody who he was doing drugs with

369
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Speaker 2: freaking out and m h you know, binds him up

370
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Speaker 2: to transport him and then dumps the body or sets

371
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Speaker 2: you know, puts him in a hayfield and you know,

372
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Speaker 2: sets it on fire. But it doesn't sound like that's

373
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Speaker 2: what we are dealing with here, So so okay. So

374
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Speaker 2: seven point thirty is the last time he's seen alive,

375
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Speaker 2: and he's driving towards at least in the general direction

376
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Speaker 2: of the hayfield in which his body is found.

377
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Speaker 1: Yep. And his widow is describing what she believes his

378
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Speaker 1: day was like. The last time she saw him was

379
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Speaker 1: at noon, and he was collecting rent. So he had

380
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: a lot of property and he was renting out different

381
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 1: parts of the property to people, probably kind of sharecropping,

382
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Speaker 1: and he was collecting rent. That was the day he

383
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Speaker 1: did it. He would have had money, she said. He

384
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Speaker 1: would have had quite a bit of money on him, cash.

385
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Speaker 1: And she said that she had been worried because he

386
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Speaker 1: had said to her that he had been getting some

387
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Speaker 1: death threats and she was getting ready to call the

388
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Speaker 1: police when the police came to her and said, we

389
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Speaker 1: found her husband's body.

390
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,159
Speaker 2: Okay, so tell me about the death threats.

391
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Speaker 1: She just said that he did not explain anything, that

392
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 1: he was scared about these, you know, supposed death threats,

393
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: but we don't know, we don't know anything about them.

394
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 1: And he was vague with her because he didn't want

395
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Speaker 1: to upset her. Everybody's concerned about the widow because she's pregnant.

396
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,360
Speaker 2: So these death threats are aren't coming in like through

397
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 2: the mail. No, okay, So there's no written record.

398
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Speaker 1: It doesn't look like it now if there were, he

399
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: didn't hand him over to her. So that is you

400
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: know where we are right now. They don't know what

401
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: happened to him. They're still doing they still have one

402
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 1: more like physical exam to do. I have another doctor

403
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: coming in, and so the sheriff is alarmed because this

404
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 1: does not happen in Lodi. Of course, his widow is

405
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 1: really upset, and you know, the community's pretty shaken. They

406
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: don't know what's happening and what the reason was behind it.

407
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 1: They didn't find money on him, you know, anywhere would

408
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 1: have been burned up, but there's no evidence of that

409
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: except except that coin purse. So he might have had

410
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: that coin purse either taken or burned up. But there

411
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: was just the clasp and that was it. So any

412
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: other thoughts before I have the next big development because

413
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Speaker 1: it's a big one.

414
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: You know, fire scenes are in many ways the worst,

415
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 2: you know, when it comes to really having a good

416
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: sense as to what was present, what wasn't present, what happened.

417
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: You talk about, you know, money on his person. I

418
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 2: mean he could have had a briefcase full of money.

419
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: The offender took the briefcase and then set everything on fire.

420
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: You'd never know that, you know. So that's where right now,

421
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 2: we just don't know what is going on in this case.

422
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about more advanced autopsy that

423
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: they do and I'll give you those results. And then

424
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 1: and then the big one comes. Okay, so we have

425
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: a doctor who comes into look at him, and they're

426
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: looking for stomach contents that kind of thing. First, the

427
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 1: investigators think something weird is happening because they find buttons

428
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: of overalls in the ashes. The next day, once this

429
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 1: thing has burned down, Alex was very successful. He had

430
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 1: a lot of money. He did not wear overalls, so

431
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: they were confused about why they would find the buttons

432
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: of overalls underneath the body at the time. Of course,

433
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: you know, he could have who knows why he had

434
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: those Maybe the worker who was with him and taken

435
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: off his overalls. They just make a note of it.

436
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: Then they get to the autopsy. So he only had

437
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: grapes in his stomach, and it sounds like he had

438
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: eaten at least one or two other restaurants during the day,

439
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: and so they thought that was a little bit weird.

440
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: And then the weirdest part is that they look at

441
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: his spine and Alex is taller than the person who's

442
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: spying this belongs to. And so now they start to say,

443
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: we don't know if this is Alex Kales.

444
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 2: So you know, like if I'm working a case and

445
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 2: I have a pathologist tell me, oh, these remains are

446
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 2: not in line with a stature of what is known

447
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: about the victim. It's okay, let's dig into that. What

448
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 2: happens to the human body when it is burned? Are

449
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: there any studies that show that human body either expands

450
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 2: or contracts? And can can you accurately estimate the height

451
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: of this body, the weight of this body, et cetera.

452
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 2: You know, after such dramatic impact on it, I would

453
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: need to know that. Now today, even with charred remains,

454
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 2: there's a chance we could do successful DNA testing. The

455
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: dentin inside the teeth that are protected by the hardest

456
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: substance in the body often can produce DNA results. When

457
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: other bones or other tissues in the body, you won't

458
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: be successful with you know. So we would be able

459
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: to definitively identify this body with modern technology in all likelihood,

460
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 2: But now nineteen twenties they couldn't do that. So now

461
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: you're you're relying on this pathologist. It's like, well, what

462
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: what are you telling me? Doc? Are you telling me

463
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 2: this is possibly isn't alex And now that opens up

464
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: the direction of the investigation. It's like, Okay, now, is

465
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: Alex staging his own death?

466
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: Have you had that before? Have you ever worked that

467
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: kind of a case?

468
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: Not directly, No, not that nothing that's popping into my head.

469
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: I'm aware of cases in which, you know, people have

470
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: done that, but I mean, obviously, in this scenario, it's

471
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 2: something that you have to consider. You know. It's like, well, yeah,

472
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 2: we got a body we can't visually identify due to

473
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 2: the you know, the fire damage, and now we have

474
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 2: a pathologist saying this body is not consistent with the

475
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 2: stature of who we presumed the body was Alex. So

476
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, so what are the set of circumstances

477
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: in which this would happen? You know, And part of it,

478
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 2: of course, is going to be, well, maybe the victim

479
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: is staging his own death for whatever reason. But you

480
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: also have to consider, you know, is there other scenarios

481
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: in which, let's say an offender has abducted and or

482
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: killed Alex but wants authorities to believe that the car

483
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: possesses Alex's body so they no longer are trying to

484
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: find Alex. And there's there's a variety of different other reasons.

485
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: But you know, it does open the door in terms

486
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 2: of well, where are we going? You know, where is

487
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: this going? You know? And now, as I always say,

488
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: the victimology, what's going on? It's huge? What is going on?

489
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 2: You know? And you know, why would Alex stage his

490
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: own death or what would cause Alex to be killed?

491
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: But then a different body substituted for Alex? You know,

492
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: maybe he's kept alive, but he's been adducted for whatever reason.

493
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: Well, let's do a little victimology here. They look at

494
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: his finances, because they are everybody suspicious at this point.

495
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: I think the spine part, I think the stomach contents part.

496
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: I think the overalls. They thought that was really weird.

497
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: Then they look at his finances and they talked to

498
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: his banker. So he had a very large ranch, expensive slaughterhouse.

499
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: He had a bungalow home, very modern, and he was

500
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: over extended. And when the livestock prices dropped, like I

501
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: told you they did, there was so much strain on

502
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: him that it was clearly stressing him out. And his

503
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: wife had said that, yes, he was stressed out by

504
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: this doesn't mean that that's what happened with him. But

505
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: if you were trying to get in you know, the

506
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: victim's head here. He seems to have a pretty good

507
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: reason for staging his own death. Who is the guy

508
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: in the car? If that's what happened, I.

509
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: Would say during this era, it's like is there any

510
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 2: reported grave robberies? Right? And now you throw that body

511
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: into the car and make off. But Alex, he could

512
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: benefit by staging his own death and disappearing. Whoever he

513
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 2: owes money to. They don't benefit by killing him, right,

514
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: you know they want his money, so it's less likely

515
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: that they would off the person that they're trying to

516
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: extract money from, unless you know, Alex showed up again

517
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: with the briefcase full of all sorts of money, and

518
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: then they decided, you know what we got, We gotta

519
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 2: get rid of this guy after they got their their

520
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: proceeds from the briefcase.

521
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: So who would be motivated to kill him in this way?

522
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: Somebody is going to see this. It's on a remote ranch,

523
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: but obviously somebody saw it. The last time somebody saw

524
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: him was at seven thirty at night. His body's discovered

525
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: at nine pm. This obviously wasn't the best hiding place

526
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: and it's an open field, so you know, I'm trying

527
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: to climb inside the head of the offender here, and

528
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: why would this be a good ideal at all? I

529
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: know you've set fire is really destructive, but other than that.

530
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but this this scenario, you know, setting fire with

531
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: haste as you know, with a vehicle inside of it.

532
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's a huge signal that oh, something's

533
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 2: wrong and people are going to rush to it, and

534
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: the offender has to know that.

535
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: Why would an offender want to do that?

536
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: Though maybe it's to send a message. You know, Alex

537
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: is a prominent person the offend. Let's say the offender

538
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: has a relationship with Alex at whether it's you know,

539
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: financial whatever, and then Alex does something that the offender

540
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: doesn't like, and the offender needs to send a message

541
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: because the offender has other clients that he has similar

542
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: relationships with. I'm kind of in a different scale. I'm

543
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: thinking about a drug dealer who has somebody who's like,

544
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: let's say, hey, can I get a dime bagie? I'll

545
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: pay you next time? Can I get a dime Bagie?

546
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: I'll pay you next time? And never pays. Pretty soon,

547
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: that drug dealer has to send a message because he

548
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: can't have all his customers doing that because he'll never

549
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: make money. So he sends a message by killing the

550
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: person that owes him money, and then all his other

551
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: customers go, oh shit, I better step up. Is that

552
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: what's going on here? The offender is doing this dramatic

553
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: homicide with a fire in the middle of the hayfield,

554
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: So everybody knows what's going on, and now is sending

555
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: a message to whoever else you better get in line

556
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: or the same thing as happened to you.

557
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's head next to people thinking they see

558
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: Alex around and this is where things really kind of

559
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: ramp up. So there's a call that comes in from

560
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: Nevada that Alex had been sighted there. Do people know

561
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: him in Nevada? I don't know, but he's spotted. A

562
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: couple days later, a man who does business with Alex

563
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: reports that Alex avoided eye contact with him in Reno.

564
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: So now we have somebody who says, I know this

565
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: guy and he wasn't looking me in the eye. There's

566
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: another local, George Williams, who says that he saw Alex

567
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: on board a westbound train. And so when you have

568
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: all of these people, you know who are saying, they

569
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: that we know Alex and he's there. Then, of course

570
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: the sheriff is now trying to put all of this together.

571
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: And on October first, the police in Eureka, California, there

572
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: are reports called in that there is an unknown man

573
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: carrying a rifle at the raiyard inside a box car.

574
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: They find the man. The gun is loaded, he has

575
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: it jammed in his mouth and he's trying to pull

576
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: the trigger with his toe and when they stop him,

577
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: he identifies himself as Alex Kills from Lodi. You still

578
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: don't believe it, Paul.

579
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you know, I need proof. Do they establish

580
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: his identity? We're talking nineteen twenties. Fingerprints were available, you know,

581
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: but not necessarily for everybody. And then, of course, if

582
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: he's still alive, then you have people who know Alex

583
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: who could establish identity.

584
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, you have these business people who

585
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: had worked with him who saw him absolutely. So then

586
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: he gets taken to the Stockton County Jail on October

587
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: third and is identified. Now his wife is not brought down,

588
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: and they say it's because she's pregnant. She doesn't know

589
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: anything about it except the fact that he's dead. And

590
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: they don't want her to have a miscarriage or anything

591
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: like that. But the sheriff questions him, and Alex confesses

592
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: because of the financial situation he's in. And I'll tell

593
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: you what he's confessing too. He does say, and the

594
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: sheriff did find out that he had in nineteen twenty

595
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: three money, he had about one hundred thousand dollars worth

596
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: of insurance on himself, which is about almost two million

597
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: dollars today. Who's the beneficiary with the wife, his wife

598
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: and his daughter, And that's why he wanted to fake

599
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: his own death. So then the question is, you know,

600
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: how did this happen and who is this person and

601
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: all of this stuff. But I'm sure you have questions.

602
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 2: Too, Okay, So let's say, Okay, this guy who's failing

603
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: to kill himself with a rival by pulling the trigger

604
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 2: with his toe.

605
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: Get a different gut, buddy, I mean, golly, But.

606
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 2: Let's say that is truly Alex. Okay, So he has

607
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 2: staged his own death. There's a benefit to his family,

608
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 2: so there's a motive to do that for his family.

609
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 2: But generally people aren't going to do that unless there's

610
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 2: some other stressor in their life. So there is something

611
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 2: else going on. You know. Let's take the scenario of

612
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: Alex gets involved in the nineteen twenties. I wouldn't expect this,

613
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 2: but let's say Alex gets involved with the mob, you know,

614
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 2: and now he owes a ton of money. He knows that,

615
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: you know, if he doesn't pay up, you know, his

616
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 2: legs are going to be broken, his arms are going

617
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 2: to be broken. He's going to be and you know,

618
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 2: his reputation is going to be sullied however you want

619
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 2: to say it. And then he decides the only way

620
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: to escape that happening to me is me, you know,

621
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: I need to stage my death. And the positive is

622
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: is that the people I love, my wife and daughter,

623
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 2: you know, will will benefit from this. He's not doing

624
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: this just for insurance money, unless he has had a

625
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 2: history of suicidal ideations prior to this. So I would

626
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: say there is something else going on in Alex's life,

627
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: particularly considering his prominent nature, that is causing him distress

628
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: to where he has to resort to this.

629
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 1: Okay, I do have a side story because I'm talking

630
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 1: to you about this case. I think that I wish

631
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: I had known about this case when I was writing

632
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: American Sherlock. So in the middle of American Sherlock, I

633
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: have a story. It's called The Calculating Chemist, and it's

634
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 1: about a chemist named Charles Schwartz who was from France,

635
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: and he was in Walnut Creek and in nineteen twenty five,

636
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: when he got this massive infusion of money, he wanted

637
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 1: to make what would end up being nylon silk was

638
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: incredibly expensive, blah blah blah. So he received a large

639
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: infusion of money from a lot of different investors, including

640
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: his wife's family. He had a couple of kids with her.

641
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: They lived in Walnut Creek. He had a whole factory

642
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: set up. He is by himself. He has a security

643
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: guard because he's gotten threats also by himself, and the

644
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: factory catches on fire and basically he explodes right because

645
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: he's using some bad chemicals. And immediately the police chief

646
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: calls in my guy, Oscar Heinrich, who goes in and says,

647
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,439
Speaker 1: this was not a chemical accident. He did not blow

648
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: himself up. The accelerant is right here. It is not

649
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: the same as any chemical that is found in this

650
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: whole factory. And then they do the autopsy, of which

651
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 1: I have the most disgusting photos of a completely burned body,

652
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: and Schwartz's wife said, well, you know, he just had

653
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: a tooth extracted, and the corpse was missing a tooth

654
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: and it wasn't burned enough where it was not identifiable

655
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: to my forensic scientist. He said, after the guy died,

656
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: it was chipped out. Based on the clotting, I guess

657
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: this was not something that was extracted, and with the

658
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: spine it was much shorter. And so Schwartz had done this.

659
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: He had found a doppelganger, itinerant minister. He put an

660
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: ad in, I want to hire you. The guy shows up,

661
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: he kills him.

662
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 2: No.

663
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: And Schwartz's plan, though, was to take money, not tell

664
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: his family, and take off because you know.

665
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: He established a separate life.

666
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: Yep, he had other girlfriends on the side. In fact,

667
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: he was getting ready to be sued with one of

668
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: those heartbomb suits. I told you about where he slept

669
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 1: with a woman and said I'll marry you and then

670
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: he dumps her after they sleep together, and she was

671
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 1: suing him. So there was a lot of stuff crumbling

672
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: in because he was not producing what he was supposed

673
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: to be producing. But it's almost the same thing. And

674
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: what it makes me think about is that, because this

675
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: is the case with Alex Kels was widely reported, I

676
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: wonder if this is where Schwartz got it from. Because

677
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: Schwartz did this in twenty five. Kell's happened in twenty three.

678
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 1: Schwartz was in Walnut Creek. This is Lodie, right, and

679
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: it's very similar, very similar circumstances and the way it

680
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 1: was kind of pulled off and everything he had. Schwartz

681
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 1: had a lot of life insurance and he did say

682
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: he had tons of death threats against him, and they

683
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,439
Speaker 1: used stomach contents to prove it wasn't Charles Schwartz because

684
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: they knew what he ate for dinner and it wasn't

685
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: in the person's body. That's why it's funny because I

686
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: keep thinking, oh, who kills doppelgangers? I just think that's wild.

687
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: But if I hadn't written, if I hadn't written about

688
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: Charles Schwartz, now nothing surprises me.

689
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, and this is where back before

690
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: modern technology, you know, everybody's relying on physical characteristics, and

691
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 2: is that that's what these offenders were taking advantage of.

692
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: You know, find somebody who looks like me, or looks

693
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 2: like so and so and killed them and set you know,

694
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: the circumstances up to where now you know, the authorities go,

695
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 2: oh yes, obviously he's missing a tooth, same tooth that

696
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: the known victim is missing, so it's got to be

697
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: the same guy. H This is easy. So you know,

698
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: with with Alex, he sets, he stages his own death,

699
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: but he's found I think you said up in Eureka, Yeah,

700
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 2: in a train. What's going on there? I always say,

701
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: when when you see contradiction, stop and think about it.

702
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 2: If he is merely staging his death for his wife

703
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 2: and daughter to get insurance money, and then he's found

704
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 2: later trying to kill himself, why doesn't he try to

705
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 2: kill himself in his own car in that hayfield. He

706
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: is trying to survive, and he's trying to maybe move

707
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: away from his life, you know, so his wife and

708
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 2: daughter receive insurance money. He feels good that, you know,

709
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: these people that were in his life are financially benefiting

710
00:40:55,239 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: from it, and now he's moving on. But then he's

711
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: getting cornered and he's recognizing, oh shit, I've been caught,

712
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: and now he wants to blow his head off, but

713
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: is completely incompetent to do that.

714
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think what comes out is his wife

715
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: will say eventually that he's been mentally unstable for quite

716
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: a while. I don't know if people believe that. But

717
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 1: let me tell you what he says. He says, I

718
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: did it, can't take it anymore. He said that he

719
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: hired the stranger I told you about. Remember he went

720
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 1: to the employment office and said, I need to hire somebody.

721
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: That's who he hires. He called him a ragged stranger

722
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: from the public employment office. He called him Mac. He

723
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: doesn't remember the guy's name. He said he drove Mac

724
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: to his ranch and then he shot him twice in

725
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: the head with a thirty two automatic handgun. He said

726
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: Mac was still alive after he shot him twice, so

727
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: he beat him with an iron bar. He said he

728
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: put the body in a burlap sack, put it in

729
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: the back of the car, and continued with his day's

730
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: work as usual. Then he, at eight o'clock that night,

731
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: heads back to the ranch. He said he built a

732
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: haystack around Max's body and lit a candle. But then

733
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: he says he abandoned his car. I think he must

734
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: mean that they put maybe he put hay in or

735
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: near the body or around the body inside the car

736
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: and then set it on fire. Must have been what

737
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: he did. And then he said he left on foot

738
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: and went back towards Sacramento, and then he went to

739
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 1: Arizona and Texas and all over the place to try

740
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: to get away from all of this. And he said

741
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: he was ashamed by the financial situation he had been in.

742
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: That's what he said. The motivation was, it was shame.

743
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: But how overextended he was. He was going to have

744
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: to file for bankruptcy. So you know, that's kind of

745
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: the conclusion. The investigators believed everything he said.

746
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: So the autopsy on Max's body. He shot a couple

747
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,479
Speaker 2: of times in the head with a thirty two. He's

748
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: been beaten, he said, with.

749
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: A hammer, he said, with an iron bar.

750
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: Iron bar. Okay, So a good evaluation of Mac's skull

751
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: should show the perforation by bullets. This is very distinctive,

752
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 2: and even the defects, the bullet hole defects will show

753
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: directionality coming from outside in now beaten by an iron

754
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 2: bar probably also is leaving distinctive aspects. But the complication,

755
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: of course is the fire. But the perforation of the

756
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: skull by bullets. That should be pretty obvious.

757
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: I have a conflicting information about that in my packet.

758
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: A source that I found said it was an old

759
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: newspaper article said, you know, the autopsy showed that he

760
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: had been shot, but my packet says that doesn't say that.

761
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: And you know, let me just see if there's any

762
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: other detail, because it's a pretty big difference.

763
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,720
Speaker 2: Well, you know, in many ways, all this is doing

764
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: is either corroborating or refuting. Yeah, the details that Alex

765
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: is providing of what he did to Mac, you know,

766
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 2: and if if the pathologist is saying, yeah, I'm seeing

767
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 2: small caliber bullet holes into the skull and thirty two,

768
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 2: the thirty two is still with the body in all likelihood,

769
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: it's not like penetrating all the way through and going

770
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: to never never land. It's probably contained within that body.

771
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 2: They're probably not using X rays on the body, you know,

772
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 2: to find you know, metal objects inside. So if the

773
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 2: pathologist isn't aware, you know, I could see where that

774
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 2: would just be left behind. So you know, now it

775
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: kind of gets down. So Alex is making admissions he

776
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: killed this random who maybe physically somewhat matched him, and

777
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 2: staged it like his own death. It now is really okay.

778
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 2: You've made an admission to that. Are you telling the

779
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: truth about the motive what he.

780
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: Says his plan was, He said, you know, I was

781
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: totally humiliated. I'm going to have to file for bankruptcy.

782
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do that to my family. He

783
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 1: said that his plan was that he would fake his

784
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: own death, murder an innocent man doing it. He was

785
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: going to set the scene up to make investigators believe

786
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 1: that the body was his, and then he was going

787
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: to go to Mexico. His wife and kids were going

788
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: to get you know, the insurance money so they would

789
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: be fine, his name would be saved, so you wouldn't

790
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 1: have to go into bankruptcy. And that he was cited

791
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,479
Speaker 1: in Reno, and he knew it because he looked down,

792
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: and he knew that somebody was going to call, that

793
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: the business associate was going to call the police. And

794
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: he said, you know, I should have gone to Mexico immediately,

795
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 1: but he said I didn't. And I kept seeing, he said,

796
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: staring eyes everywhere, and he said I couldn't take it anymore.

797
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: And then when I got spotted, I thought, well, there's

798
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: only one way to end this now, and that's where

799
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: we had the suicide attempt. He said, he was just

800
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: tortured the whole time by what he did. He could

801
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 1: have gone Paul immediately. I mean this were on a

802
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, two or three weeks. He could have

803
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: been in Mexico and nobody would have ever found him.

804
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: But he just kept coming back.

805
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 2: And there's no information about another life, No you know,

806
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: owing money to some entity that he would be afraid of,

807
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: nothing like that. This is literally, Oh, I suck. I

808
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,720
Speaker 2: screwed up, and I'm now going to stage my death

809
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: and escape.

810
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: He said. This is a quote. He said. You know,

811
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: I saw these staring eyes everywhere I went. He said, sadly,

812
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: it seemed like everybody was staring at me. I couldn't

813
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: stand it. That's why instead of going to Mexico as

814
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 1: I planned, I wandered from place to place here, California, Nevada, Texas,

815
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: I mean just kind of all around California. And then

816
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: he said, I knew it was dangerous to come back

817
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: to this state, to California, but I couldn't help it.

818
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: My friends and family are here and I had to come.

819
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a criminal mastermind. I

820
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 1: think this was a desperate guy who did a terrible thing.

821
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: But I don't see anything about a second life or

822
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: anything like that. Charles Schwartz from my book, was an asshole.

823
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: That's different. I don't know. I feel differently for some

824
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 1: reason about this guy.

825
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 2: I'm not buying that everywhere he goes, you know, somebody

826
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 2: was staring at him, you know, that's how he felt. Yeah,

827
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 2: I mean, there may be a level of paranoia mm hm.

828
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 2: You know, like I think about myself, you know, in

829
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: the public notoriety that I've garnered over the last seven years,

830
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 2: and quite frankly, I'm rarely recognized out in public, let

831
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: alone put myself back in the nineteen twenties, you know

832
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 2: when I mean, it was just the newspapers. That's the

833
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 2: only place where you would actually see photographs of somebody.

834
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: And you know, so I'm thinking, okay, that that sounds

835
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: like BS. But if there's a level of paranoia that

836
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 2: he's developed, and there's a mental health aspect, then that

837
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 2: that's now starting to add up a little bit better,

838
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 2: you know, for me, for him committing this crime and

839
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 2: kind of explaining why he committed this crime.

840
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, So he goes on trial. They don't tell his

841
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: wife about this. At the time of the trial, which

842
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: is at the Sanjuelquin Superior Court in Stockton. She's not

843
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: informed that Alex is alive or that he's been arrested

844
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: and put on trial for murder, and they're concerned that

845
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: it could jeopardize her pregnancy. Never have I ever heard

846
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: of people hiding that kind of information out of concern

847
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 1: for pregnancy For the offender's wife, I was a little

848
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: stunned by bat. Yeah, they tell her after she gives

849
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: birth to his son. That's when they find out.

850
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 2: It's almost, you know, erring on the wrong side of

851
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 2: what you should be doing. You know. It's like, yeah,

852
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: and I can I can understand. M hm oh. We

853
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 2: want to be sensitive, you know, to to her, you know,

854
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 2: and not disrupt her. But this is where actually, that

855
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: wasn't your husband in the hayfield. Your husband's so alive,

856
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: you know, at a curtain point, you just have to

857
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 2: be able to deliver that news, you know, as tactfully

858
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 2: as possible. I think that they were overly conservative, if

859
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: that was a real reason for not telling her.

860
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: They identify the man who Kell's killed, who was a

861
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: sixty year old man. He was the guy from the

862
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: public Employment office. His name was Edward ed Meserve. He

863
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: was an itinerant farmhand and he worked temporary jobs and

864
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: he had just gotten there that day. Wow, and they

865
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: have the proof. There's a note that basically has Kells's

866
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: name saying that he hired him for two dollars and

867
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: fifty cents. We should have been about fifty bucks today

868
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 1: for chores, you know. And then kel said, yeah, that

869
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: was him. So Kel's goes on trial and the white

870
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: doesn't know for a month. Can you believe that he

871
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: refuses counsel. He is convicted, and he is sentenced to death,

872
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 1: and then they tell her. She gets incredibly upset and

873
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: starts just I mean, ripping into everyone and says, we

874
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: need a new trial. If you had talked to me,

875
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: I would have said, number one, we're getting you an attorney,

876
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: and number two, you're mounting an insanity defense because you

877
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: have been unstable for a couple of years at least

878
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 1: that's where kind of we were heading. People ignore her,

879
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: and he ends up at fulsome state prison. After talking

880
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: to her, the warden says, we need to look at

881
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: Alex's case, and this is interesting. Tell me what you

882
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 1: think about this. They try to figure out whether or

883
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: not this guy is insane. This is their solution on

884
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: December twenty first, so this is two months after he

885
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: is put on death row. There's a doctor named Leo I. Stanley.

886
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: He is the San Quentin prison physician. He takes samples

887
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 1: of al Alex's spinal fluid and he's looking for neurological

888
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: infections or conditions that might cause this kind of distress.

889
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: But he doesn't find anything, and Alex is declared saying,

890
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: what do you think about that method? Spinal fluid?

891
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know what would be found in

892
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 2: spinal fluid, especially with you know, nineteen twenties technology, which

893
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 2: is staining looking through a microscope. You know, it's so

894
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: limited versus like functional pet scanning of the brain, you know,

895
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: all sorts of things that we can do today. You know,

896
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 2: I think so buy loose definition. Innocence due to insanity

897
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: fundamentally indicates that the offender or the defendant did not

898
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: know right from wrong. In this case, Alex takes the

899
00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 2: steps to lore and isolate an innocent victim and takes

900
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 2: the steps to obliterate that victim's identity through fire as

901
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 2: well as other physical evidence and disappears for self preservation.

902
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 2: I'm looking at that going he knew what he did

903
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: was wrong in many ways, he was hoping what he

904
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 2: did would get him to be able to live a

905
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: better life under a different identity. And a side effect

906
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 2: is that his family was benefiting from his own death

907
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 2: through the insurance. I don't see this as somebody who

908
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 2: is not knowing right from wrong. They knew it. Alex

909
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 2: knew it. My suspicion is Alex had other motives versus

910
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 2: just I was ashamed the bankruptcy and all that. I

911
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 2: think there may have been other motives. Maybe he was

912
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 2: unhappy in his current life living situation and decided, you

913
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 2: know what, I just need to get out, you know,

914
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 2: And he preserved his family's life versus the family annihilators

915
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 2: that you and I have both covered, and the family benefited,

916
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 2: but he's still harmed a family by you know, faking

917
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 2: his own death. Then you have ed it is an

918
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 2: innocent victim. Yeah, absolutely innocent victim. You know, and I've

919
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 2: often talked about this true crime genre. You know that

920
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 2: you and I are both in now and what stories

921
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 2: are typically covered is a lot of them are are

922
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 2: dealing with you know, women or maybe even children as victims. Well,

923
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 2: these are typically your true innocent victims. Men get themselves

924
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 2: involved with stupid things or do stupid things that cause

925
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: them to you know, be killed. And they're not very

926
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 2: interesting stories, you know, and they're often not innocent victims.

927
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 2: But here Ed is an innocent victim, and you know,

928
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 2: so Alex is you know, showing a selfishness to take

929
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,399
Speaker 2: Ed's life, you know, to benefit Alex's own. So this

930
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 2: is where you know, this is truly, you know, a

931
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: horrific crime against an innocent victim.

932
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. And both in my book and Charles Schwartz and

933
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 1: with Alex Kels, they target the same group, which is

934
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: what we talk about with serial killers. You're targeting a

935
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 1: group oftentimes of people who don't have someone keeping an

936
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 1: eye on them. Yes, And you know, like when we

937
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 1: talk about some of the ones in history with sex

938
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: workers and with itinerant ministers, which is what happened in

939
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:49,280
Speaker 1: Charles Schwartz's case, and with an itinerant farmhand where nobody's

940
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: tracking them necessarily, and so you know, you have that

941
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 1: situation where he picked the right person who might have

942
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: never been identified if he had not made some mistakes,

943
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: I will say to wrap this up, the lowdie community

944
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: wants his sentence committed to life in prison. They do

945
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: not want him executed. The governor says, bug off, this

946
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: guy's dying. This is one of the most cold blooded

947
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,240
Speaker 1: and deliberately planned murders in the history of the state,

948
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: says Governor Friend W. Richardson. He does not commute the sentence,

949
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 1: and on January fourth, alex Is hanged. His wife and

950
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 1: now two children do not get the almost two million

951
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 1: dollars payout. They get the equivalent of one hundred and

952
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 1: ninety thousand dollars in today money. And that is that

953
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 1: you look disturbed.

954
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think you know, this is where,

955
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 2: you know, because I've kind of got a raw spot,

956
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 2: you know, for for offenders. Families like the wife and

957
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 2: the kids are innocent.

958
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no belief that she knew any of this

959
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:55,479
Speaker 1: at all.

960
00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so this is where in many ways, this

961
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 2: is where they're victims.

962
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: You know.

963
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: They they are now, you know, suffering from the loss

964
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 2: of a husband, a loss of a father, earning's potential.

965
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 2: You know, however, you say it, and you know, to

966
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:20,280
Speaker 2: deny them something just because of their relationship to Alex.

967
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 2: You know, I think is wrong. And I've gotten to

968
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 2: know relatives of notorious killers, and you know, their life

969
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:36,839
Speaker 2: is severely impacted and to the point where you have

970
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 2: the online trolls. I can say, and I have to

971
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 2: be somewhat careful, but let's say Golden State killer. But

972
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 2: Joseph DiAngelo, I mean he had three daughters, and I

973
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 2: will tell you that those daughters have been demonized online.

974
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 2: They have no idea what their father did, they have

975
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: no culpability of what their father did. Yet because of

976
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 2: their relationship, you know, they are impacted to a point.

977
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 2: I heard two of them the night that we arrested

978
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 2: DiAngelo and they were like, one of the daughters was going,

979
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 2: how am I ever going to get a job? Yeah?

980
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 2: You know, this is where family members of these types

981
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 2: of individuals are victims themselves. There's a few circumstances in

982
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 2: which family members are aware and or participated in the crimes,

983
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 2: and that's a different story. But many times these family

984
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 2: members are absolute innocent victims. And that's where what I'm

985
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 2: hearing about sort of the decision with Alex's wife and kids.

986
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, I'm disturbed by that. You know, they

987
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 2: should have received the full compensation they they could have

988
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 2: gotten because their lives have been forever altered as a

989
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 2: result of Alex's selfless actions. Yeah.

990
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: Well, I was checking to see what ended up happening

991
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: with an. I haven't gotten a ton of information, but

992
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: I know she died in nineteen seventy seven. Oh wow, Okay,

993
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: she was ninety and she died in Lodi. So she stayed.

994
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: And you know, they had two children, one of whom

995
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 1: just died in ninety seven, and had some kids. Their

996
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 1: son looks like he died aged thirty four, So I

997
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: hope it was a good life. But she stayed. And

998
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 1: to me, what that means, Paul, I don't know if

999
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 1: this is what that means to you is people really

1000
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 1: did believe she was number one, a good person and

1001
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: did not know about any of this. Do you think

1002
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: she would have stayed in Lodi for another fifty something

1003
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 1: years if people didn't believe that she was, as you

1004
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: just said, a victim.

1005
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 2: I have no doubt she was completely caught off guard,

1006
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 2: you know, and Lodi even today, it's a small town,

1007
00:58:56,280 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 2: you know, especially in northern California. You know, because as

1008
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 2: I've traveled through the United States, you go to some

1009
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 2: places and you're going, oh my god, how does this

1010
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 2: even exist as a town. It's tiny that the department

1011
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 2: has like three deputies, you know, but Lodi is still

1012
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 2: small relatively speaking, and I can only imagine, you know,

1013
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 2: back in the nineteen twenties, how small it was, and

1014
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 2: everybody if there is any suspicion on Alex's wife, everybody

1015
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 2: in that town would be whispering to each other and

1016
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 2: it'd be unbearable for her to stay there.

1017
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I will make another note. I don't know

1018
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: if this has anything to do with this case, but

1019
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: they're all buried in a Catholic cemetery in Laucheford, so

1020
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if that's part of his religion,

1021
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 1: and that explains why he didn't stay, you know, going

1022
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: to Mexico and state. I guess I'm just sort of

1023
00:59:55,120 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: I feel badly for him in a way because the

1024
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 1: nation's circumstances at the time was set up in a

1025
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: way where he was heading towards bankruptcy. He might have overextended.

1026
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: You know, he had a ranch. But this is somebody

1027
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 1: who came from Germany who wanted to make a better

1028
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: life for himself. He sounded like an exemplary citizen. People

1029
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: really liked him, that's why they said don't execute him.

1030
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: And you know, probably he overextended, but also circumstances led

1031
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 1: to all of this. But he also meticulously plotted the

1032
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 1: death of an innocent man too. So I'm much more

1033
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 1: conflicted about Alex Kels than I was about, you know,

1034
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 1: the other doppelganger killer in my book. But it's still

1035
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 1: it's like a reminder of just these sort of when

1036
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 1: people are desperate, they what are they thinking?

1037
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 2: You know, right, you know, and I think that there

1038
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 2: is you know, you have to at least acknowledge the

1039
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 2: potential for a mental health aspect. But like I said,

1040
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 2: there's yeah, I mean there's a lot of self awareness

1041
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 2: on Alex's part that what he was doing was wrong,

1042
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 2: you know, and absolutely from a mental health For me,

1043
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 2: what that does is that it negates the insanity defense, Yeah, absolutely,

1044
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 2: but it does not negate the possibility that there's a

1045
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 2: mental health influence on the decisions he made, and that

1046
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: could be a mitigating factor in terms of how he

1047
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 2: is treated in his sentencing.

1048
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: I had been reading a lot, I was really interested

1049
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: in the reason why people reacted the way they did

1050
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 1: on that Black Friday, the crash of the stock market,

1051
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you remember reading this on

1052
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: Wall Street people men were jumping out of buildings to

1053
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: their deaths.

1054
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 2: To a point, yeah, I remember that.

1055
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: So that identity that's wrapped up, especially in that time period.

1056
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: And I mean now too, with somebody like an Alex Kel's,

1057
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 1: especially an immigrant coming here to make a better life,

1058
01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: with being a failure as a husband in business, and

1059
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 1: it's just an epic failure. I can see that if

1060
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 1: he already hasn't some instability to begin with. I mean,

1061
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 1: she didn't say that he's always been like this. She said,

1062
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 1: it's it's been, you know, as of recently, which is

1063
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 1: probably when he's been under all this financial pressure.

1064
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:14,919
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1065
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: Sure, So I have in no way defending him. I'm

1066
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 1: just thinking of why people do desperate things, and the

1067
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 1: idea of your whole business in your life coming crashing

1068
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: down on you. I understand most of the other cases.

1069
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: I don't understand that we do. I don't understand why

1070
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: people doff like Black Dollia would be a really great example.

1071
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 1: I don't understand it. I understand this. It's still awful

1072
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 1: what he did, but I kind of get that desperation.

1073
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 2: You know, everybody has life stressors and it's how do

1074
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 2: you deal with those stressors? And Alex chose I'm gonna

1075
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 2: kill somebody? Yeah, you know, so you know that, you know,

1076
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 2: that's the fundamental truth of this particular case. And I

1077
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 2: think that that's you know, you know, the reasons why

1078
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 2: Alex made to that decision. You know, who knows are

1079
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 2: they're mitigating circumstances from a mental health standpoint or anything else,

1080
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 2: But fundamentally, Ed lost his life because Alex decided to

1081
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 2: be selfish, and you know, that's that's what galls me.

1082
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 2: You know, what Alex's punishment should have been, you know,

1083
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 2: I think is debatable, but you know, ultimately, you know,

1084
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 2: this is what crime is about. It's it's okay, you

1085
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 2: committed a crime. What is your punishment and that's going

1086
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 2: to be dictated based on the severity of the crime,

1087
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:38,439
Speaker 2: and when it's loss of life, and when it when

1088
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 2: it is obviously a pre planned loss of life, then

1089
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 2: you go, well, that's sort of the ultimate You decided

1090
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: to go out and kill somebody for your own benefit?

1091
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 1: Yep, Well, Paul holds, this has been very serious. This

1092
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 1: has been my stressor you just talked about everybody else, Brosslors.

1093
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 1: This case has been my stressor. Yeah, but it's been interesting.

1094
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that with every one of

1095
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 1: these cases, we find things that are relatable to cases

1096
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 1: into life today.

1097
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. Yeah, there's no difference. I mean, this

1098
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 2: is I mean, you can find so many cases that

1099
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,000
Speaker 2: replicates this case with Alex today. Yep.

1100
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 1: Okay, So next week we'll tackle something different. Go have

1101
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 1: a good time with your seltzer.

1102
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 2: To be frank, it's working, you know, because you know

1103
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,959
Speaker 2: with the bourbon whiskey, you know, obviously it's higher concentrations

1104
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 2: of alcohol. I found a zero carb, zero sugar hard

1105
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 2: Seltzer zero fun. I'm not touting it as a health drink,

1106
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 2: but it's like, you know, so it's working.

1107
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 1: Well, good, have another one for me next week when I.

1108
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 2: See you, I will I'm looking forward to a case.

1109
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: Okay, bye bye. This has been an exactly right production.

1110
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia

1111
01:04:57,560 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

1112
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

1113
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1114
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1115
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1116
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1117
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1118
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1119
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

1120
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1121
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1122
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1123
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1124
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

1125
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1126
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts,