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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, welcome back to Killers amongst Us,

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. You go in

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Speaker 1: and out of your home, your garage, your front or

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Speaker 1: back door. You see the neighbors, You see people going

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Speaker 1: by on the street, or in your apartment building. You

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Speaker 1: see people in the parking lot going in and out

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Speaker 1: all the time. Do you ever stop and notice them? Today,

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Speaker 1: Killers amongst Us, I'm Nancy Grace. We're talking about the

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Speaker 1: story of a beautiful young Philly teacher, beautiful on the

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Speaker 1: inside and the outside. Ellen Greenberg, just twenty seven years old,

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Speaker 1: had just sent out her Saved the date announcements for

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Speaker 1: her wedding. She had the world by the tail of

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Speaker 1: what happened. Listen to this. Twenty seven year old Nollenberg

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Speaker 1: was a first grade teacher in Philadelphia. She and her

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Speaker 1: boyfriend of three years he had just become engaged and

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Speaker 1: began planning their wedding. January twenty six, two thleven, Ellen

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Speaker 1: school let out early due to an oncoming blizzard. On

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Speaker 1: her way home, she filled up her guesting She was

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Speaker 1: at home with her fiance until four forty five pm,

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Speaker 1: when he reportedly went to the gym in their apartment competence.

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Speaker 1: When he arrived back to the apartment less than an

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Speaker 1: hour later, he says he found the apartment locked from

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Speaker 1: the inside. He claims he banged on the door and

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Speaker 1: received no response. Over the next twenty two minutes, he

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Speaker 1: would try to convince Helen to open the door through

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Speaker 1: text messages. So what happened? Why wouldn't Ellen come to

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Speaker 1: the door? According to the fiance, take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friend doctor Oz. At six thirty three pm, her

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Speaker 1: fiance says he forced open the door to find Ellen

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Speaker 1: dead on the floor of the kitchen. He stabbed twenty

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Speaker 1: times in the chest, neck, and head. It was a

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Speaker 1: knife still lodged in her chest. Ellen was pronounced dead

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Speaker 1: at six forty pm. Investigators evaluating the scene and her

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Speaker 1: autopsy ultimately stated that she died by suicide. There were

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Speaker 1: no obvious signs of an intruder or evidence of a struggle.

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Speaker 1: There was no suicide. I still don't understand how you

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Speaker 1: can stab yourself twenty plus times, including to the side

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Speaker 1: of your head and the back of your neck with

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Speaker 1: me and All Star panel. Stephanie Farr, reporter, Philadelphia Inquirer.

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Speaker 1: You can find her on Twitter at far Away. Far

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Speaker 1: R Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author of Blood Beneath

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Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon, star of a brand new hit

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Speaker 1: series on True Crime Network, Poisonous Liaisons, Private investigator on

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Speaker 1: Team Greenberg, Tom Brennan, renowned psychiatrists joining me out of

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta area. Doctor Angela Arnold, you can find her

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Speaker 1: at Angela Arnold MD dot com. Veteran trial lawyer, former

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Speaker 1: prosecutor turned defense attorney. Daryl Cohen, attorney with Cohen Cooper, Estep,

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Speaker 1: and Allen and special guests joining me Allen's dad, Josh

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Speaker 1: Greenberg and her mother, Sandy Greenberg. You know, Sandy, we

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Speaker 1: were talking earlier about getting that phone call from the

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Speaker 1: fiancee asking about Ellen. Do you remember that. Yes, Sam

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Speaker 1: called on our landline, which was kind of surprising because

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Speaker 1: we only used the cell phones. I picked it up,

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Speaker 1: and he wanted to know if I had heard from

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Speaker 1: Ellen because he was locked out of the apartment. And

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Speaker 1: I said, oh, she's probably drying her hair. Give it

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Speaker 1: a couple of minutes and you know, shouldn't be a problem.

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Speaker 1: And the you know, the call was brief and we

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Speaker 1: didn't hear anything till we got to call later that

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Speaker 1: evening from Richard Goldberg saying that something terrible happened. Actual

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Speaker 1: immediate reaction when you heard quote something terrible, what's happened

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Speaker 1: to Alex? Where's the where's the ambulance? And trying to

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Speaker 1: find my voice to scream from my husband? You know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't had he called for an ambulance? I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Josh Greenberg, do you know if the

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Speaker 1: fiance called for an ambulance? We have no way of knowing.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Find that really odd, jo Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: You've been on many a scene. Wouldn't there be records

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Speaker 1: of who called for the ambulance? Yeah? Yeah, there would,

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Speaker 1: And it would seem as though that the initial finder,

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Speaker 1: who in this case is this boyfriend, would have been

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Speaker 1: the individual to have, you know, taken up the mantle

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Speaker 1: here and merely dialed nine one one, but at the

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Speaker 1: bottom one when the police arrived. I don't understand why

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Speaker 1: an ambulance would not have come out to the scene

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Speaker 1: at least to do an initial assessment, even if it's

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Speaker 1: just to walk up to the door and the police say,

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Speaker 1: now she's gone, you guys need to back out. This

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Speaker 1: is now crime scene. Is to go ahead, jump in,

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Speaker 1: mister Goldberg. V Goldberg did, in fact, when he made

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Speaker 1: entry into the apartment, did call nine one one. We

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Speaker 1: do have that nine one one call, that's right, And

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Speaker 1: the operator explained to him about doing CPR. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: that's when he approached the victims. He was wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute. He had not approached her yet. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump in also here, so we're all jumping in.

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Speaker 1: I believe that. He said to the nine one one operator,

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Speaker 1: do I have to No, now, wait a minute, Josh,

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Speaker 1: let's get it straight. Okay, okay, Tom. He approached the victim,

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Speaker 1: the operator asked him if he knew how to administer CPR.

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Speaker 1: Sam Goldberg said that he didn't. She said, I'll basically

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Speaker 1: walk you through it. He knelt down beside her and

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Speaker 1: he said, oh my god, she's got a knife in

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Speaker 1: her chest. She must have fell out a knife. And

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Speaker 1: she said, don't touch anything. Don't touch anything. Stop right there.

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Speaker 1: And when he knelt down, he said, do I have

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Speaker 1: to do this? And she said yeah, And he said, ah,

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Speaker 1: so he's the one that didn't in fact make the

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Speaker 1: nine one one call. We do have video security video

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Speaker 1: when the emf R Department personnel arrived at the scene

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Speaker 1: and were escorted to the elevator by the concierge. What

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Speaker 1: I find amazing is that the individual EMS person from

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Speaker 1: the fire department that pronounced Ellan at six forty pm

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Speaker 1: and his lieutenant, we're never interviewed by the homicide investigator.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to Stephanie Farr, reporter with the Philadelphia Inquirer. Stephanie,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. As I recall, the

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia inquire A release a front page report that went

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Speaker 1: over the circumstances surrounding Allen's death, and we learned that

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Speaker 1: we're now pathologists. Cyril Wecked you recalled challenge at John

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Speaker 1: FK Single person Assassination reviewed the case and say that

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Speaker 1: it was strongly suspicious of homicide. Anne also say I

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Speaker 1: don't know how they wrote this off as a suicide. Also,

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Speaker 1: a man that I respect greatly, Henry Lee, as you

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Speaker 1: recall from O. J. Simpson Fame, reviewed the case and

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Speaker 1: he also concluded the number and types of wounds and

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Speaker 1: bloodstained patterns observed are consistent with a homicide, saying what

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Speaker 1: else was in the Philadelphia Inquirer's front page report Stephanie.

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Speaker 1: We went from the beginning when when Sandy and Josh

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Speaker 1: got the call that night, through the investigation that occurred

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Speaker 1: in my interviews with police when they arrived on scene.

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Speaker 1: Initially it was treated as a suicide that night for

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Speaker 1: several reasons. The apartment door lock was a big factor

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Speaker 1: of the case for police. The fact that Sam Goldberg

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Speaker 1: had remained on scene and was cooperative was also one,

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Speaker 1: and that there were no signs of an intruder or

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Speaker 1: in the lack of defensive factored heavily in their determination. Also,

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Speaker 1: it's my understanding the police did not realize how many

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Speaker 1: times she had been stabbed at the scene that night,

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Speaker 1: while they didn't see the nice in her chest. It

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Speaker 1: was only the next day at autopsy that all twenty

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Speaker 1: of the wounds were discovered. Joe scot Way in, if

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Speaker 1: I could just go back to what as far was

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Speaker 1: saying just a moment ago about the nature of these

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Speaker 1: wounds and not being able to assess them at the scene,

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Speaker 1: that's that's certainly part of the course. That's not anything

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Speaker 1: that is unusual because there's such a copious amount of

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Speaker 1: blood in these cases, and that goes to a bigger issue.

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Speaker 1: She had lost a tremendous amount of blood in this

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Speaker 1: particular case, So you can't you can't assess the body

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Speaker 1: at the scene and really know what's going on. So

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Speaker 1: you know, when you look at this in total, is

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Speaker 1: it possible at the scene, at that moment time to

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Speaker 1: contextualize what's going on. I think that just because these

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Speaker 1: cases where you have quote unquote self inflicted stab wounds

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Speaker 1: are rare, I mean very rare. I think over the

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Speaker 1: course of a twenty plus year career at the Emmy

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta and New Orleans, UM, I may have worked,

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Speaker 1: I may have worked a total of five self inflicted

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Speaker 1: suicide cases. You just don't come along because there's so

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Speaker 1: much pain involved. You mean suicide by knife? Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: self inflicted knife wounds. And I'm not I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: about an individual. Let's see, I'd say that I have one,

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Speaker 1: uh that was in fact a woman that I know

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Speaker 1: of the other men, but this is the one thing

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Speaker 1: they all had had in common. Single stab. No, no,

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Speaker 1: I would have multiple stab but this is the one

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Speaker 1: thing they all had in common. Uh. They were being

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Speaker 1: treated I think probably uh probably four were all being

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Speaker 1: treated for uh some type of severe mental illness. That

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Speaker 1: brought on manic phases or delusional phases, and I just

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Speaker 1: don't I don't see evidence of that here. I want

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Speaker 1: to circle back to what we know about the injuries

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Speaker 1: to Ellen, because it's my understanding that there was one

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Speaker 1: particular stab wound that penetrated Ellen's brain, and we know

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Speaker 1: that was not the last stab wound because the knife

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Speaker 1: was found in her chest. And I want to apologize

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Speaker 1: to mister and missus Greenberg for discussing her wounds so

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Speaker 1: oh gosh, surgically. But the significance of this one stab

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Speaker 1: to her brain. I don't understand how a stab to

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Speaker 1: the brain and the spinal cord a would not have

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Speaker 1: caused incredible pain and nerve dysfunction if you're stabbed in

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Speaker 1: the brain, traumatic brain injuries, So how could you then

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Speaker 1: go ahead and distab yourself in the chest after that?

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Speaker 1: That's let me go to Tom Brennan on that. What

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Speaker 1: do you make of that? Um If you take a

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Speaker 1: look at it, one particular wound um the wound track,

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Speaker 1: it penetrates the spinal cord and goes in an upward

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Speaker 1: upward direction into the brain and causing causes hemorrhaging in

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Speaker 1: the brain. So that one will loan Um would have

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Speaker 1: totally incapacitated the victim or would have caused them. And

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Speaker 1: that is exactly what you told, doctor oz Listen. We

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Speaker 1: engaged a neuro forensic pathologist who I had worked worked

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Speaker 1: with in the past, and um he studied all of

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Speaker 1: the information that I had and it was his opinion

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Speaker 1: that this was a homicide and not a suicide. And

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Speaker 1: he said the wounds would have severed the nerves in

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Speaker 1: the spinal cord. And if you take if you look

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Speaker 1: at the wound track, the wound track goes in and

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Speaker 1: up direction into the brain and causes a hemorrhage in

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Speaker 1: the brain. So following that that wound itself, the victim

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Speaker 1: could no longer self hard Do you just got Morgan?

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Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Yeah, Nancy, this is

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Speaker 1: what I make of it. Just like Tom is saying,

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Speaker 1: this wound track itself would penetrate into an area that

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Speaker 1: involves a primal brain that you know kind of controls

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Speaker 1: our autonomic nervous system. You know, there's things that you know,

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Speaker 1: we don't think obviously about our heart beating. We want

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Speaker 1: to tell our heart to be It's not like picking

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Speaker 1: up a can of soda. So these are primal brain functions,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you couple that with the injuries that

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Speaker 1: she sustained with her there's a nick to her a order.

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Speaker 1: I believe there's injury to to her the lobe of

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Speaker 1: one of her lungs. And that means what that's saying

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Speaker 1: is that there would have been just a tremendous amount

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Speaker 1: of internal blood loss. So that coupled with the insult

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Speaker 1: to uh to uh, this insult to the brain would

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Speaker 1: have been it's it's a it's a double whammy. I

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Speaker 1: don't see how you get past this as an investigator

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Speaker 1: or in as a forensic pathologist being able to frame

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Speaker 1: this like they are. Let's talk about the scene itself. UM,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the layout of the apartment.

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Speaker 1: What can you tell me, Josh and Sandy about the

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Speaker 1: layout of her apartment? Was that what level? Was it on? First? Second, third?

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Speaker 1: It was on the sixth floor, and I think that

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Speaker 1: was pretty sure that, yeah, was on the sixth floor.

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Speaker 1: And there were no cameras in the hallways correct. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but I could tell you that when you

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Speaker 1: walk down the hallway, I could hear Ellen talking in

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Speaker 1: her kitchen, which is the room that when the door

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Speaker 1: opens up, that's what you enter into. Do we know,

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Speaker 1: Tom Brennan, if there was any stairway that led to

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Speaker 1: the top of the building or emergency stairs that led down.

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Speaker 1: There are stairs that you made down from the sixth floor,

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Speaker 1: and according to the concierge, there are there were entryways

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Speaker 1: at that time that could be accessed and the individual

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Speaker 1: or individuals could avoid being detected with the security cameras. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so there were emergency stairs and you could access them

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Speaker 1: without being detected by cameras. Was the trash collected, Tom Brennan?

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Speaker 1: And was the dumpster searched Tom Brennan that serviced the

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Speaker 1: apartment and the trash shoot. So the trash in the apartment,

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Speaker 1: the trash shoot and the outside dumpster was his, the

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Speaker 1: fiance's car and trunk searched. Were the door knobs to

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Speaker 1: the access the emergency stairway printed? And was the shower

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Speaker 1: recently used? Do we know any of those answers? None

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Speaker 1: of that was done by the police that said even

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Speaker 1: that night. So bottom line to that, Daryl Cohen, you

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Speaker 1: and I have seen a lot of murders. Darryl. It

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Speaker 1: would have been so easy given the circumstances. I'm hearing

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Speaker 1: for a purp to murder Ellen, to take a shower,

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Speaker 1: to leave the apartment, to go down the emergency stairwell,

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Speaker 1: to dump bloody clothing or whatever the case may be

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Speaker 1: evidence in a dumpster or in a car trunk, and

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Speaker 1: it was never searched. Would you agree that's possible? I

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Speaker 1: absolutely agree, But I also have questions these other access points.

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Speaker 1: Did they require a fob? Did they require a key?

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Speaker 1: I know they were about under camera surveillance, but could

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Speaker 1: someone have entered because it was open? And the other part,

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Speaker 1: of course, is that when the perp, if there was one.

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Speaker 1: And I'm very concerned with the stab wound to the head,

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Speaker 1: which brings up another question to the brain. Was Joe

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Speaker 1: was that instantaneous when the stab woud went to the brain?

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Speaker 1: Was she could no longer? Now what? I'm not an MD,

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Speaker 1: I'm in JD, but I can tell you this, When

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Speaker 1: you get a stab to the brain, it's instant darryl Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean really no offense or where did you go

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Speaker 1: to law school? Mercer or Nyffy. I got to say,

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Speaker 1: you know a reference to what Daryl's Darrel's comment is

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Speaker 1: and this is something that's kind of troubling from me.

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Speaker 1: Please put it in a nutshell, Okay, all right, she

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Speaker 1: had she had an insult to her spinal cord that

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Speaker 1: was examined by the neuropathologist. There's no indication the autopsy

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Speaker 1: report that forgive me parents, that they took her brain

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Speaker 1: and sent it to to a neurologist neuropath to examine

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Speaker 1: the brain. It's the forensic pathologist that is making the

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Speaker 1: assessment on the brain. Why not take the extra step

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Speaker 1: and include a spinal cord as well as the brain,

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Speaker 1: because right now I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing

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Speaker 1: it in any of the reports that I've read in

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Speaker 1: that again, is troubling to me as someone that looks

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Speaker 1: at cases involving death exactly. You know, I said I

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Speaker 1: wasn't an MD, but we actually have an MD on

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Speaker 1: the panel, doctor Angela. Arnold. Psychiatrists, you have to be

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Speaker 1: an MD before you become a psychiatrist's right, Doctor Angie.

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Speaker 1: I just find it really hard to believe that you

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Speaker 1: could take a knife on into the brain and it

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Speaker 1: not be instant, and you still have the wherewithal to

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Speaker 1: plunge a knife into your chest. That is total b yes,

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Speaker 1: this is total Yes, Nancy, you can't do it. And

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Speaker 1: also to do something like that to yourself, you would

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Speaker 1: you would have Typically when women do things like that

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Speaker 1: to themselves, like it's women kill themselves. They have such

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Speaker 1: a hatred for themselves, okay, and they almost they would

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Speaker 1: almost associate and do this. But there is no way

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Speaker 1: that after stabbing yourself in the brain, that you could

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Speaker 1: pull the knife out and stab yourself again. Ridiculous, ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: I want to again try to get back to the

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00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 1: layout of the apartment, Sandy Greenberg Tolmy. It was the

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Speaker 1: sixth floor, and then we went down the rabbit hole

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Speaker 1: of the emergency exit stairwell. Was there a balcony, Sandy, No,

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Speaker 1: there was. You could open up the wind I don't

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Speaker 1: actually remember, but it looks like a faux balcony, but

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Speaker 1: you couldn't really go out those little attachment things. But

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Speaker 1: you can't really go out there. So there's no other exit.

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Speaker 1: There's no other way down except the elevator and the

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Speaker 1: emergency stairwell. There's no sign of an intruder. But again,

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Speaker 1: I want to go over very carefully, Tom Brennan, the

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Speaker 1: condition of that lock, the lot that was a lot

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Speaker 1: from the inside, and the fiance he said he couldn't

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Speaker 1: he couldn't get in because she alleged to him locked

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Speaker 1: it on the end's high. Did you ever get to

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Speaker 1: see or were there photos taken off the lock to

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Speaker 1: show it had been splintered open when the fiance says

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Speaker 1: he broke the door down. When I first got involved,

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Speaker 1: I didn't go through the over the seame photographs and

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Speaker 1: there are very good photographs of the condition of this

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Speaker 1: sliding bar lock. Okay, And if you take a look

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Speaker 1: at it, and I have been trained in lock picking.

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Speaker 1: I did surreptitious entries when I was the law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: so I'm very familiar with lock If you take a

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Speaker 1: look at the lock, the one pieces mounted on the door,

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Speaker 1: the other pieces mounted on the door down. The piece

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Speaker 1: mounted on the door is mounted for its four screws.

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Speaker 1: The door is a particle board door, so there's damage

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Speaker 1: to that piece and it's uh, there is one screw missing,

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Speaker 1: and there are pieces of the particle board door that

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Speaker 1: should be on the floor. Well, if you take a

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Speaker 1: look at the photographs, that screw is that missing is

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Speaker 1: not visible, that fell out, and the that would particles

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Speaker 1: that came from as a result of damaging that that

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Speaker 1: mounting are not there either. The lock on the door,

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Speaker 1: the fiance said, precluded him from getting in. He had

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Speaker 1: to break the door down. Part of it was still on,

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Speaker 1: still attached. It had four screws. One screw was missing

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Speaker 1: and never found, as if it had been unscrewed right,

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Speaker 1: not broken down. The screw went flying. It was missing

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Speaker 1: right and particles from breaking the door down. We're not

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Speaker 1: on the floor according to these photos. Very curious, Very curious.

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Speaker 1: Another thing in the home. Was the home ransacked in

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Speaker 1: any way? Tom Brennan's No, not at all. She was

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen with her sitting up in the kitchen

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Speaker 1: floor with her back as if she were leaning against

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Speaker 1: one of the counters. What had she been doing prior

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Speaker 1: to her death, Josh Greenberg? I believe she was claying

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Speaker 1: up fruit and making fruit salad. So this is a

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Speaker 1: woman who speaks to her mom that day. Everything's fine,

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Speaker 1: She's preparing for her wedding. She leaves school early. She

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Speaker 1: calls all the parents, your children coming home early, get ready.

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Speaker 1: She comes home, she starts making she feels up her

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Speaker 1: gas tank so she won't go in empty the next day.

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Speaker 1: WHI should I find highly significant. If I were going

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Speaker 1: to kill myself, the last thing I'd worry about was

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Speaker 1: having an empty tank in the car. Last thing. And

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Speaker 1: then starts making a fruit salad, and somewhere in chopping

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Speaker 1: the apples and the oranges and the bananas, she decides

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Speaker 1: to kill herself. It's all wrong, doctor, Angela Arnold, you're

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Speaker 1: the shrink. I'm a lawyer, but I can tell you

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Speaker 1: that's not right. No, it's not Nancy. And that's why

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Speaker 1: we do study patterns of behavior. And you know, typically

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Speaker 1: also when somebody's going to kill themselves, they they sort

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Speaker 1: of start telling people goodbye, they give things away, their

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00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: mood changes a little bit, and they're very and they're

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Speaker 1: very overcome with a good feeling about getting out of

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Speaker 1: their pain. There's been no indication that this woman was

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Speaker 1: in any pain, like there's psychiatric pain. There's no indication

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Speaker 1: that she was in any kind of pain. The woman

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00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: had just sent out her saved the dates. And I

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00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: completely agree with you. Who fills up their car with

358
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Speaker 1: gas prior to committing suicide? Angela? This is Darryl. Is

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00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: it unusual for someone to instantaneously decide I'm going to

360
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Speaker 1: convince to it. I'm chopping apples, I'm chopping all the fruit,

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Speaker 1: and then oh my god, I can't handle and this anymore,

362
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Speaker 1: and I've done yes. That is completely unusual. People that

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Speaker 1: typically people that commit suicide have thought about it for

364
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Speaker 1: a very long time, as long as as they are,

365
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: and they are so depressed that finally they start feeling

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Speaker 1: a little bit better and they have the energy to

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Speaker 1: commit suicide and it puts them out of their misery.

368
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Speaker 1: Twenty stab wounds tend to the back of the net,

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Speaker 1: one to the scalp, to her chest, horrible slash across

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Speaker 1: her abdomen. Then I still lodged in her chest. I've

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Speaker 1: never heard anything like it. And her parents, Sandy and

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Speaker 1: Josh Greenberg and says, there is no way she would

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Speaker 1: have committed suicide. What about it, Josh? Things were not

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Speaker 1: totally right with Ellen. She wanted to come home, which

375
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Speaker 1: is very unusual. If you send out save the date

376
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Speaker 1: cards and you're happy and you're gonna have a wedding.

377
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: So at the time I was very concerned about Ellen

378
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Speaker 1: because I didn't know what was going on, But I

379
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: was also being a father. I didn't want her to

380
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: walk away from a very good job. So Ellen and

381
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: I made a deal that I would hire Sandy and

382
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: I would hire a psychiatrist, Ellen Burman, very well known,

383
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: very excellent credentials for Ellen to talk to. And if

384
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Speaker 1: she said Ellen could come home, she could doctor Burman

385
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: and her notes, Siphily says, not suicidal. We had a

386
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: forensic psychologists look at doctor Bourbon's notes. The diagnosis was

387
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 1: adjustment disorder with anxiety. Anxiety is the type of thing

388
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: you're on the Pennsylvania Turnpike and a big truck comes

389
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: alongside you. You feel anxious. You don't feel suicidal, but

390
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: you're anxious. Your heartbeats faster, and you're not so happy.

391
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: Ellen was not suicidal by an expert, not by me.

392
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Speaker 1: Tell me about Ellen's funeral, Sandy, Oh boy, well we

393
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: fit was you know. Obviously there were FLTs of snow.

394
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: So we had it in our synagogue rather than the

395
00:27:52,440 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: chapel at the cemetery, and it was filled to capacity.

396
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: People were standing around all the margins of the funeral,

397
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: and Josh spoke and I, I don't know how I

398
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: got through it, but I did somehow a lot of

399
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: what's happening immediately after Ellen's death for both of us

400
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: was a blank. We just didn't know what was going on.

401
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: I did speak. I managed to come up with the

402
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: concept that if we all closed our eyes, Ellen would

403
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: be all around us in our minds, and that's how

404
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: we should remember Ellen. It was also an important announcement

405
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: I made that day. That's when the medical examiners said

406
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: this was a homicide, not a suicide. How I found

407
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: that out was by people telling me. The medical examina

408
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: never called me, the Philadelphia Last never spoke to me,

409
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: and that's announce that I made. I can't tell you

410
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: any more about the eulogy I made, except to think

411
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: of Ellen will always be around us in spirit. And

412
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: if you read some of the writings by her students

413
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: and parents, with the students in the memorialization book or

414
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: whatever you call it a funeral home, they think of

415
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: Ellen and some of them even have done that years

416
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: after her death, her homicide. Did the fiance come to

417
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: the funeral? Yes? Yes? Did he speak? Now? What was

418
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 1: his demeanor? His parents were holding him up and he

419
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: was You know, we had people who suspected or they

420
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: didn't like his behavior, were very sympathetic to us. That's

421
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: all I can say. But there was a show going on,

422
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,239
Speaker 1: why did you say that the room was filled? He

423
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: couldn't speak because father had to hold up a man

424
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: as opposed to somebody who was a future husband, who's

425
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: justin lost his fiancee to a brutal suicide or whatever,

426
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: and he couldn't speak. He couldn't he couldn't bring himself

427
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: to what I would say, to be a man and

428
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: show how much he cared. Ellen Greenberg loses her life

429
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: at age twenty seven and still no justice. Nancy Grace

430
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: killers amongst us. Goodbye friend,