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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am

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Speaker 1: Matt and today we're talking about how to change your

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Speaker 1: relationship to money with Amanda Claiman.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, today we're talking with therapist turned financial wellness and

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Speaker 2: relationship coach Amanda Claiman. And you know there is an

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Speaker 2: intrinsic connection between money and mental health, and Amanda's twenty

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Speaker 2: years of experience in the field it allows her to

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Speaker 2: dive into some of the thorniest, some of the most

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Speaker 2: personal dilemmas we face in order to bring compassionate clarity

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Speaker 2: to the conversation. She is a counselor and accomplished speaker

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Speaker 2: and educator as she offers and facilitates workshops, seminars, courses

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Speaker 2: across the country. And now Amanda's work now extends to

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Speaker 2: a twelve part podcast called Emotional Investment. It's out now

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Speaker 2: on Audible that is produced by Fresh Produce Media, and

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Speaker 2: we're going to discuss everything related to financial therapy today. Amanda,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: I am so excited to be here. Thank you for

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Speaker 3: having me.

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Speaker 1: We're pumped to have you. Amanda. So much to cover

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Speaker 1: on today's show. But of course, the first question as

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Speaker 1: always is what do you like to splurge on in

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Speaker 1: the here and now while you're still being intentional saving

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Speaker 1: investing for your future. What's your craft beer equivalent?

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Speaker 3: So I really had to think about this because there

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Speaker 3: are so many splurges that have been amended in my life.

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Speaker 3: But one thing that has has really been a source

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Speaker 3: of so much joy for me, especially recently, is taking classes.

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Speaker 3: I am a lifelong learner. I love being exposed to

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Speaker 3: new ideas. I don't always enjoy the homework that comes

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Speaker 3: to taking classes, but like, I love that UCLA and

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Speaker 3: my they have the UCLA Extension, so you can you

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Speaker 3: can take classes as a graduate. Sometimes if you want,

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Speaker 3: those can go toward accredited program. But in my case,

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Speaker 3: I just kind of study the things that are interesting

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Speaker 3: to me. And right now I'm doing a class on

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Speaker 3: the sociology of emotions and it is deeply fascinating interesting.

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Speaker 2: So okay, yeah, I was halfway expecting you to say,

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Speaker 2: you know, like a cooking class, I'm learning from like

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Speaker 2: Emerald how to like spice up my cage. I am.

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Speaker 2: That's not the case. Amanda is incredibly nerdy.

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Speaker 3: Although no, you don't want to know my secret though,

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Speaker 3: which is that I took a macroeconomics class and I

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Speaker 3: found it so anxiety producing that I literally dropped out

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Speaker 3: and took the f macro econ.

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Speaker 2: Hey you got to know when it cut them free,

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Speaker 2: because those cause me a stress. It sounds like that

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Speaker 2: was a mentally emotionally healthy thing for you to do. Man,

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Speaker 2: is that class worth abandoning?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Well it was like it was a lot of algebra

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Speaker 3: is not so much the existential, like what are we

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Speaker 3: all doing here? It's the future of a planet, which

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Speaker 3: is kind of where I wanted it, Okay, where I

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Speaker 3: wanted to go with it.

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Speaker 2: You're looking for the dooming gloom, but instead you got

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Speaker 2: like algebra or just.

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Speaker 3: Kind of like, hey, the math's not math in here, folks.

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Speaker 3: We maybe our models need to be adjusted and expanded

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Speaker 3: in terms of just thinking about like GDP.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, that's true.

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Speaker 1: And actually, you know, not to get political, but some

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Speaker 1: politicians have talked about that we were using old school

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Speaker 1: metrics to talk about how things are going in the

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Speaker 1: economy these days, and we need some updated metrics to

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Speaker 1: reflect kind of the reality on the ground. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: nothing's really been done about that. But okay, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about your story, Amanda. Let's start there and we run

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Speaker 1: to get to kind of so many things in today's episode.

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Speaker 1: But the first thing you read if you go to

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Speaker 1: your website is you saying that you win in the

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Speaker 1: financial therapist direction because you and I quote, blew up

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Speaker 1: your own financial life so spectacularly, which is, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: that's a lot to admit on the home page of

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Speaker 1: your website, Like can you tell us about that though?

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Speaker 1: And yeah, get real for the beginning with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the facts of my financial failure in that

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Speaker 3: period of my life are not all of that dramatic,

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Speaker 3: by which I mean I was just a person living life.

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Speaker 3: I decided that after college, I wanted to look for

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Speaker 3: work and move to the East Coast. I wanted to

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Speaker 3: move to sorry, to New York. But I didn't really,

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Speaker 3: like like many twenty two year olds, I didn't have

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Speaker 3: a very well thought out plan. I just kind of

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Speaker 3: landed there and figured that I would make my way

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Speaker 3: just boots on the ground kind of. And what happened

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Speaker 3: is that I discovered that you need things like money

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Speaker 3: for broker's fees and for first and last month's rent

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Speaker 3: and security deposit. And I didn't have that money, and

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Speaker 3: so it just kind of started a cycle of overspending

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Speaker 3: and incurring debt that was very, very anxiety producing for me,

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Speaker 3: and like so many of us, I responded to my

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Speaker 3: anxiety by with good old avoidance. And that was just

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Speaker 3: not something that I wanted to know the details about.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't have a regular financial management practice. I

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Speaker 3: just was very romantic, I would say, and my ideas

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Speaker 3: about money, and some of that was about, you know,

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Speaker 3: being confident and just saying I'm going to figure it

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Speaker 3: out and I'm going to make my way, which I

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Speaker 3: did because the mistakes that I made in eventually incurring

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Speaker 3: just under twenty thousand dollars worth of credit card debt

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Speaker 3: back in the nineties, I want to say, inflation adjusted,

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Speaker 3: that's kind of more in the mid thirties now of

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Speaker 3: how much.

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Speaker 4: Debt that would be.

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Speaker 3: But it was really kind of I was doing things

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Speaker 3: like avoiding bills, as I mentioned, avoiding any kind of

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Speaker 3: financial management tasks. I would get stressed out about my

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Speaker 3: credit card debt and send all of the money to

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Speaker 3: pay down a balance, but then not have enough money

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Speaker 3: to kind of meet my needs, and I would need

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Speaker 3: to use those cards again in order to cover things.

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Speaker 3: So it was just like just these wild swings with

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Speaker 3: nobody kind of in charge in any sort of organization.

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Speaker 3: I say nobody. I was the one who was not

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Speaker 3: organized in that dynamic, but I kept it very much

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Speaker 3: a secret. It was my secret shame. And what happened

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Speaker 3: is my mother came to visit me and I asked

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Speaker 3: her to cut my hair, and she had used to,

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Speaker 3: She had cut my hair growing up or from the Midwest,

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Speaker 3: like that was not a weird thing when I was

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Speaker 3: growing up, and she gave me the terrible haircut, and

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Speaker 3: I promptly freaked out and just became hysterical. And it

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Speaker 3: turned out that this was kind of just the straw

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Speaker 3: that broke the camel's back, because what happened was I

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Speaker 3: had to admit to my mom that I had bounced

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Speaker 3: to check at the hairdresser. I was just I was

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Speaker 3: not able to kind of fix the problems in my

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Speaker 3: life that were largely created by by inattention and impulsive

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Speaker 3: decision making and behavior. And my mom, I really thought

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Speaker 3: that she would just be shocked and horrified and wanted

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Speaker 3: disown me, but she was in fact very kind and

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Speaker 3: constructive and she showed me how to create a budget

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Speaker 3: which was not an instrument of punishment, which was kind

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Speaker 3: of how I had been approaching budgeting before.

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Speaker 2: Alone A lot of people do totally.

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Speaker 3: And now this is really fundamental in one of the

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Speaker 3: ways that I work with people. If we experience budgeting

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Speaker 3: as a tool of no as a tool of punishment,

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Speaker 3: that's not a long term healthy place to be with

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Speaker 3: our money. And so that was really my first lesson.

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Speaker 3: But that made me start to look at money. Once

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Speaker 3: I wasn't actively panicking every time I tried to kind

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Speaker 3: of open a credit card statement, once I started to

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Speaker 3: bring some organization, I started to really see how emotional

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Speaker 3: money was. And once I saw how emotional money was

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Speaker 3: like that actually gave me something to be interested. I

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Speaker 3: wasn't interested in just the dollars and cents. I didn't

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Speaker 3: want my life to be on fire. But I wasn't

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Speaker 3: intrinsically interested.

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Speaker 4: In money in and of itself.

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Speaker 3: But I was really interested in money as a way

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Speaker 3: of grounding myself in kind of the details of my

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Speaker 3: life and asking myself some really important questions about like

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Speaker 3: who am I and what do I want this story

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Speaker 3: to be? What do I want money to do in

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Speaker 3: my life? And once that flipped for me, everything really flipped.

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Speaker 3: And suddenly, because I had been working in marketing, I

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Speaker 3: was like, I don't want to influence other people to

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Speaker 3: be spending money that they may not have. Like it

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Speaker 3: really just set off a chain reaction that ended in

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Speaker 3: a total career change for me because I became so

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Speaker 3: deeply interested in the complex meaning that we attached to

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Speaker 3: our financial lives, and more importantly, the way that money

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Speaker 3: can really surface this unconscious meaning in our life, and

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Speaker 3: that when we pay attention to money, when we look

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Speaker 3: at our behavior with money, when we examine our choices,

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Speaker 3: that is one of it's like an express train right

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Speaker 3: to the heart of our unconscious And as a therapist,

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Speaker 3: as a person in a helping profession, that's the thing

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Speaker 3: that's most interesting to me about money, and that's kind

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Speaker 3: of what I've made my career.

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Speaker 2: I love that. So I'm curious, like, do you think

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Speaker 2: that at some point, like basically you're you're in credit

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Speaker 2: card debt, maybe live in kind of paycheck to paycheck,

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Speaker 2: but there was an event that kind of upset the

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Speaker 2: entire order that you had, and maybe you will admit

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Speaker 2: that there wasn't a whole lot of order going on

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Speaker 2: at that point in life, but you were slowly constraining

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Speaker 2: your financial life. And do you think that eventually, at

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Speaker 2: some point you would have gotten to like some other

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Speaker 2: tipping point or do you do you think it required

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Speaker 2: something like this, like something like this terrible haircut for

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Speaker 2: you to kind of, I don't know, it almost like

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Speaker 2: removed you from yourself a little bit and you could

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Speaker 2: kind of see this situation for maybe how ridiculous it was.

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Speaker 2: So I'm curious if you think you would have gotten

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Speaker 2: to that point without some sort of big event like this.

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Speaker 4: That's such a good question.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I do feel like I'm kind of a person,

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Speaker 3: like so many of us, who needs to learn things

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Speaker 3: the hard way. Avoidance definitely sets you up for a

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Speaker 3: bigger consequence in many instances. The thing that was so

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Speaker 3: important about what happened with the haircut, and the reason

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Speaker 3: that that was my bottom was because I couldn't hide anymore.

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Speaker 3: Like every time I would have to look in the

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Speaker 3: mirror and see that hair and know that I couldn't

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Speaker 3: fix it, that was avoidance was no longer an option

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Speaker 3: for me. So there would have I think had to

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Speaker 3: have been some other form of kind of kicking me

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Speaker 3: out of that closet in order to spark to look

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Speaker 3: at it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, when you talk about kind of riding the ship,

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Speaker 1: you talk about how your year of debt payoff was

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Speaker 1: one of the happiest of your life. I'm so curious

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Speaker 1: to hear why, because you would think, actually, the happiest

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Speaker 1: year of your life is the year where you're kind

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Speaker 1: of oblivious racking up all sorts of credit card debts,

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Speaker 1: spending in the ways that are kind of fun, and hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm living life in my early twenties in New York City.

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Speaker 1: This is how grand is this? But now you've got

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Speaker 1: to pay the piper, so you're starting to address the

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Speaker 1: debt that you've accumulated. Why was that so enriching for you?

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Speaker 3: The thing that I had never had before in my

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Speaker 3: financial life. Even as I was kind of unconsciously getting

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Speaker 3: the things that I wanted on some level, I never

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Speaker 3: had a feeling of safety around those choices. I never

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Speaker 3: felt like I always felt guilty, I always felt worried.

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Speaker 3: I didn't have any refuge from those fears or from

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Speaker 3: the shame. And so what I learned is that if

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Speaker 3: I I am able to organize myself and organize my

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Speaker 3: life such that I can stay within these I mean,

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Speaker 3: some of them were external boundaries, right, like having to

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Speaker 3: just debt maintenance started to take up more and more

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Speaker 3: of my income as my credit card balances got bigger.

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Speaker 3: So there were very real constraints, but I was also

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Speaker 3: making purposeful and contextualized decisions about where I wanted all

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Speaker 3: of the rest of my money to go. And I

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Speaker 3: had never felt safe around money. I had never felt

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Speaker 3: confident around money. I had never been reliable to myself

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Speaker 3: when it came to saying, hey, this is important to me,

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Speaker 3: and I'm going to put my energy and attention and

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Speaker 3: behavior around this thing that's important to me. And that

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Speaker 3: was the thing that was the Eureka kind of a moment,

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Speaker 3: was like, and one of the things that I learned

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Speaker 3: is you can't have time that you're not thinking about

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Speaker 3: money unless you have time where you specifically are thinking

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Speaker 3: about money. Otherwise it's just going to you know, knock

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Speaker 3: around in the back of your mind or in the

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Speaker 3: front of your mind twenty four to seven.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny because, like so much of what you

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Speaker 2: hear folks talk about is a need for financial literacy, essentially,

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Speaker 2: like understanding how to invest, how to pay off your dad,

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Speaker 2: doing all these things, And certainly that is a part

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Speaker 2: of the problem. But with you, like you you write

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Speaker 2: and talk about this like you say you knew better,

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Speaker 2: but you actually didn't know how to quote do better?

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Speaker 2: Can you unpack that for us? And I guess sort

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Speaker 2: of where you were mentally just at that point in

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Speaker 2: time in New York.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like the thing that's not taught when

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Speaker 3: we think about the curriculum, if you will, of what

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Speaker 3: constitutes financial literacy is we really need to teach emotional

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Speaker 3: literacy as well. As part of that, we need to

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Speaker 3: help people anticipate that money is going to feel profoundly emotional,

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Speaker 3: and that there's not necessarily simply a spreadsheet or a

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Speaker 3: list of pros and cons that comes from a kind

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Speaker 3: of like practical, concrete perspective that can get us through

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Speaker 3: some of the biggest and most important, the most most

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Speaker 3: significant kinds of places that money money takes us in

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Speaker 3: our lives. So I think that oftentimes one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons that you get people like me, or like a

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Speaker 3: lot of the people that I work with who are

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Speaker 3: anxious and very avoidant with money is because they feel

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Speaker 3: like something must be going wrong if their emotions are

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Speaker 3: really intense around money, or if they are having experiences

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Speaker 3: where they kind of want to do something but they

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Speaker 3: end up behaving in a way that's contrary to that goal,

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Speaker 3: and that if we are teaching people sort of like

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Speaker 3: how to handle situations, for example, where you want to

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Speaker 3: go out to eat with a friend and the restaurant

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Speaker 3: that they want to go to is more expensive than

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Speaker 3: what you can afford, how do you handle that conversation?

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Speaker 3: Or when it comes to, you know, inflation and all

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Speaker 3: of the sudden things that are part of your regular

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Speaker 3: life that you that our needs, not even wants, but

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Speaker 3: that you really need to have, like groceries, gas, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: When those prices go up and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: you're feeling really rebellious and angry about that, but there's

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Speaker 3: no one, there's nowhere to really kind of put that

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Speaker 3: put those feelings. So sometimes we turn those around at

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Speaker 3: ourselves where we get mad at sort of like you know,

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Speaker 3: big macro circumstances. I think we need to teach people

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Speaker 3: to anticipate the emotional landscape that they are going to

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Speaker 3: encounter when they start to examine and really get more

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Speaker 3: directed about how they want money to come in and

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Speaker 3: how they want money to go out in their.

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Speaker 2: Lives, which is I mean, it's so interesting too is

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Speaker 2: the fact that this seems like something that is intuitive,

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Speaker 2: Like this seems like something that everybody should know, but

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Speaker 2: I think so few folks have actually taken the time

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Speaker 2: to do this because of the fact that we are

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Speaker 2: robbed of our attention and this isn't I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to spend like thirty minutes harping on smartphones and social media.

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Speaker 2: But it's one of those things where your default, and

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Speaker 2: we don't even realize it, is just to immediately like

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Speaker 2: pacify ourselves and entertain ourselves, when normally that might be

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Speaker 2: a time that you would think back to something that

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Speaker 2: you said to a friend earlier, or the events of

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Speaker 2: the last week or something like that, and think, oh,

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Speaker 2: what happened back then, and you start emotionally or mentally processing.

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Speaker 2: But it's like we've completely eliminated that. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what you call it, like this time of purgatory. It's

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Speaker 2: like it's like this weird phase of life, like while

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Speaker 2: your memories are and emotions are curing. Yeah, in a sense, that's.

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Speaker 1: What boredom allowed us to do was processed some of

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Speaker 1: those things. You're right, and I think, yeah, we're just

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Speaker 1: generally less emotionally and relationally healthy these days. And my

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Speaker 1: wife and we're talk about that just the other day.

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Speaker 1: Not only do we need personal financial literacy courses in

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Speaker 1: high school, but emotional and relational literacy courses would be

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Speaker 1: great too. And I'm not saying that like physics doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a place in high school anymore.

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Speaker 2: But it's great.

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Speaker 1: But we kind of need all the above and in

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Speaker 1: order to learn how to because we all have different

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Speaker 1: parents and different upbringings and different ways of learning about

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Speaker 1: how to relate to the world. And I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe some of this stuff, especially that like some of

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Speaker 1: the great tools that you learned going to school to

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Speaker 1: become a therapist, would be helpful for normal, everyday folks too.

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Speaker 3: There is really so much around. I agree that the

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Speaker 3: kind of attention, the circumstances around which attention is kind

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Speaker 3: of used as a resource nowadays, that we're in a

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Speaker 3: whole different kind of environment than any of our ancestors

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Speaker 3: have ever been, for sure. And the other part of

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Speaker 3: that is around self regulation, like physiological arousal and what

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Speaker 3: happens when our body is in a defensive mode, when

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Speaker 3: we're in kind of fight or flight. Literally, Like, what

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Speaker 3: is happening in our body when that's occurring? And to

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Speaker 3: notice how often it's occurring in places where we might

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Speaker 3: not expect it, for example, when we sit down to

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Speaker 3: think about and make some decisions about money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw a devastating statistic thirty percent. I would

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Speaker 1: not have believed this unless I saw it written out

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Speaker 1: thirty percent of five to seven year olds now of

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Speaker 1: a TikTok account.

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Speaker 2: Like mind blowing. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe

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Speaker 2: it. I was shocked.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I mean to tell us financial therapy, you're kind

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Speaker 1: of in in that field. It's relatively new.

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Speaker 2: In so many ways. Matt and I were for it.

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Speaker 1: We will need to process kind of money in a

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Speaker 1: greater context as well, in the emotional context. Do you

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Speaker 1: think like everyone would benefit from seeing a therapist who

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Speaker 1: specializes in like the financial therapy realm or what's your

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Speaker 1: take in regards to like a money therapist versus like

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Speaker 1: a money coach and who needs what?

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Speaker 3: I think that that there? First of all, it kind

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Speaker 3: of depends on what is the benefit or the outcome

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Speaker 3: that you're looking for. I do think that all of

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Speaker 3: us would benefit from doing some reflection, doing some exploration

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Speaker 3: around the meaning of money, around unpacking some of the

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Speaker 3: events that we experienced as kids, the messages that we

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Speaker 3: got around money, some of the events, the meaning that

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Speaker 3: we created out of all of that. These are really significant,

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Speaker 3: impactful influences on the rest of our lives. So I

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Speaker 3: think that we should definitely look at them. I find

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Speaker 3: myself really in my practice now because I'm a private

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Speaker 3: practitioner now. I was an agency practice for almost fifteen years,

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Speaker 3: so what I do in private practice really straddles. I

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Speaker 3: would say, look, if we were looking for a label

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Speaker 3: for it would be therapeutic coaching, because we are looking

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Speaker 3: more at the present. In the future, we are looking

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Speaker 3: more at behavioral change. There's an element of kind of

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Speaker 3: looking at the past. Which is one of the distinctions

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Speaker 3: when we talk about the difference between psychotherapy or any

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Speaker 3: kind of mental health work versus coaching, is there will

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Speaker 3: be more of an emphasis or more time spent. I'm

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Speaker 3: looking at some of the stuff and exploring things in

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Speaker 3: the past versus looking at things in a forward casting view.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so on that note, like you specialize in using

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Speaker 2: cognitive behavioral therapy, which is often known as CBT, But

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Speaker 2: why is that such a helpful tool to help folks

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Speaker 2: to change their relationship with money?

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Speaker 3: I love it because it's so concrete. It really says, okay,

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Speaker 3: like what are some of the thoughts that you're having?

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Speaker 3: Like a question that I ask clients all the time.

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Speaker 3: I love this framework, which is like, what is the

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Speaker 3: scary thought? Tell me the scary thought, you know, and

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Speaker 3: that is the fear. But it's not just the emotion

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Speaker 3: of fear that we're feeling. It is attached in the

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Speaker 3: mind to some kind of a story that it's telling.

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Speaker 3: So cognitive behavioral therapies and techniques get us into what

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Speaker 3: are the stories that we're telling ourselves? What are the

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Speaker 3: beliefs that we can uncover about the world through this

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Speaker 3: kind of an exploration, and then ultimately like how does

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Speaker 3: this how do these thoughts beliefs, how did these emotions,

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Speaker 3: how do they live in the body, and how do

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Speaker 3: they impact some of the behavioral choices that we're making.

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Speaker 3: So CBT is just a really helpful framework. There's so

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Speaker 3: much wonderful literature behind that modality in terms of its efficacy.

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Speaker 3: So that's been a place where I'd say a lot

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Speaker 3: of my work has been influenced. But I also use

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Speaker 3: like internal family systems, like talking about the different parts

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Speaker 3: of ourselves and what those parts may want, and sometimes

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Speaker 3: how these different parts of ourself can be in conflict.

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Speaker 3: I do a lot of stuff with more somatic techniques

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Speaker 3: as well, so like really recognizing what's happening in the body,

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Speaker 3: taking very seriously what the work of self regulation looks like.

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Speaker 3: So's it's helpful to have maybe a bit of a

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Speaker 3: grab bag. I mean, I told you I'm a life

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Speaker 3: long learner, so I always find it fun to say like, ooh,

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Speaker 3: what's working over here? What's working over here?

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Speaker 2: Let's get it cool.

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Speaker 1: Also, okay, we want to talk about your new podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's particularly interesting because you're putting literally putting us in

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Speaker 1: the therapy room with some of your clients, and so

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Speaker 1: it's so much to learn and so much to experience

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Speaker 1: in that process. We'll get to a bunch of questions

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Speaker 1: on that front.

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Speaker 2: Right after this, and we are back from the break

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Speaker 2: talking with Amanda Claimant about how we can change our

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Speaker 2: relationship to money, and I mean essentially your podcast, like

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Speaker 2: Joel said, it's like we're sitting It's like we're a

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Speaker 2: wallflower sitting there or in the counseling room, and you've

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Speaker 2: got a bunch of different case studies that we get

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Speaker 2: to journey with them through some of the hard work

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Speaker 2: that they're doing. And the first full length episode covers

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Speaker 2: instant gratification, it covers like, like what triggers spending and so,

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Speaker 2: can you shed some light on your episode with Samantha

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Speaker 2: and the emotional underpinnings that influence our spending habits.

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Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely so.

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Speaker 3: One of the best ways I think to understand the

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Speaker 3: conversations that I had with Samantha is how people can

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Speaker 3: sometimes respond to constraint, and specifically the way that we

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Speaker 3: experience that is feeling trapped. Samantha had done a number

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Speaker 3: of pivots in her life where she needed to change

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Speaker 3: careers and that meant going back to school and getting

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Speaker 3: more education. So one of the most significant constraints in

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Speaker 3: Samantha's life was the amount of money that she had

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Speaker 3: to pay to service her student loan debt, and that

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Speaker 3: constraint the same thing that was part of Samantha's personality

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Speaker 3: that sort of made her say like I'm not going

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Speaker 3: to let a situation get me down. I'm going to

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Speaker 3: figure it out, I'm gonna pivot, I'm going to go

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Speaker 3: in this new direction. That was the same attitude that

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Speaker 3: Samantha was kind of having when it came to the

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00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 3: feeling of financial pressure in her life. But the challenge

439
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 3: was there was nowhere to escape to. There was no

440
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 3: way to just kind of like step out of that situation.

441
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 3: There was no career to change in that sense, or

442
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 3: different city to move to. So what was happening was

443
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 3: that some of that that same kind of impulse to

444
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 3: flee or to escape meant that Samantha wasn't paying attention

445
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 3: to her money, and that emotional spending, impulsive spending was

446
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 3: her kind of go to to relieve some of the

447
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 3: stress that she was experienced and experience and experiencing in

448
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 3: her life around these financial pressures in particular, but also

449
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 3: around she had a very she has a very stressful

450
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 3: job working with teenagers in crisis. So you can imagine

451
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 3: there are a lot of bad days, a lot of

452
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 3: hard days where you just kind of, I mean, I

453
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 3: really empathize with Samantha, because you like, you just want

454
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 3: something to work right, You just want to get a meal.

455
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 3: You just want to believe that there's something sort of

456
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 3: beautiful and easy and like you can get a new outfit,

457
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:09,959
Speaker 3: and that that's going to change the emotional state that

458
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 3: you're in when life is hard.

459
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people feel like they beat

460
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: themselves up and they say and I think you even

461
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: said to Samantha in the episode, you said, it's not

462
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: a matter of willpower and discipline. But so much of

463
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: us feel like that's it that needs to be our response.

464
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: It's a buckle, buckle down, pick ourselves up by our bootstraps. Gosh,

465
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: can I just get my stuff together? What are better

466
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 1: tools to overcome some of our financial responses Because for

467
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: so many people, they might think that that's going to

468
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: be the answer, but they've tried and tried and tried,

469
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: and self disciplined is hard to come by and it

470
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: never seems to work out in their favor and to

471
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 1: help them make progress.

472
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 3: Well, there's a saying in the therapeutic world that you

473
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 3: never take away somebody's defensive strategy or negative coping matter

474
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 3: until you can replace it with something healthier. Because that's

475
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 3: kind of that gets to the heart of why that

476
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 3: like just white knuckling and trying to be more disciplined.

477
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 3: Why that doesn't work over the long term. So with Samantha,

478
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 3: one of the first things that we just really wanted

479
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 3: to do was help her kind of validate her own

480
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 3: feelings that she was having. She did not grow up

481
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: in a house where people's feelings were given much attention,

482
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 3: and so one of the things that was coming up

483
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 3: then through her money was kind of like what to

484
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 3: do when you feel in pain, And so part of

485
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 3: what we looked at was just being able to kind

486
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: of sit with the pain to hopefully realize it's not

487
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 3: going to kill you, because it really can feel like,

488
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, if I turned toward this this feeling,

489
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 3: if I turned toward this emotion, it's going to overwhelm me.

490
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 4: I feel like I'm going to die.

491
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 3: So part of it was just sort of like almost

492
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 3: like exposure to the thing that was emotionally triggering to

493
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 3: her and being able to witness and stay connected with

494
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: her as she was experiencing that emotional pain.

495
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 4: The other thing.

496
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 3: Related to, like as an extension of kind of that

497
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 3: work that I was doing one on one with Samantha,

498
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 3: was saying, Samantha, you need other sources of support and

499
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 3: comfort for yourself. We need to think about, like, for example,

500
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 3: finding a community for you where you can talk about

501
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 3: your goals with money or talk about your challenges with money.

502
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: So this is not a secret, but that you can

503
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 3: get a source of social and relational support, while you

504
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 3: might also get some practical advice. But the larger picture

505
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 3: is that it doesn't just have to be you kind

506
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 3: of feeling these feelings and trying to shut them down.

507
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 3: You can find a more healthy and supportive environment in

508
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: which to process those emotions, and that that can be

509
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 3: a way of supporting the behavioral change without over relying

510
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 3: on just the muscle discipline.

511
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: Totally totally agree. Yeah, it's I think it's a universal

512
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: truth that like shame breeds isolation, and it sounds like

513
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 2: that that's what Samantha was experiencing. And because of that,

514
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: so many people feel that they can't talk about money

515
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: until they finally get their crap together, but then they

516
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: feel alone and because of that, they like that tends

517
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 2: to keep them stuck in a cycle. And I like

518
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: it makes me even think about your story, like you know,

519
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 2: you only shared it with us briefly about with you

520
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: up in New York City, and I'm like, I'm starting

521
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: to I'm starting to be the one sitting there on

522
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 2: the couch next to you and like starting to think,

523
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: is it because of her environment? You know? But for you,

524
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: it sounded like it took your mom, Like that was

525
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 2: that spark right, Like obviously it wasn't just your mom

526
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: was also the haircut, but like her showing up there

527
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: and to be somebody else who you were in community with.

528
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 2: And I think oftentimes, especially for young folks when they

529
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: move off to a new city, that's something that they underestimate.

530
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: But I'm curious how it is that folks can sort

531
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 2: of break that pattern of shame, isolation, loneliness and then

532
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: more shame. Yeah, and then just draw the little the

533
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 2: arrow that loops back to the beginning of the thing,

534
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 2: and it starts all over again.

535
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 3: I will say, though, that there is reason to hope.

536
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 3: I mean, like, we're sitting here together having conversations, like

537
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 3: deeper conversations about money, and I would say that twenty

538
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 3: years ago, nobody was trying to do this right. So

539
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: we can appreciate that we are in a process of

540
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 3: cultural and social change around what what we consider normal

541
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 3: or healthy with money. And I think that that's that's wonderful.

542
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: And you know, we are all we are all participating

543
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: in that.

544
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: We're a part of the change. We're going to be

545
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: the change we want to see. The chan made it,

546
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: you might be a larger part of the change than

547
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 2: just sure, that's right. As we occasionally talk about feelings,

548
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: we're trying though, we're.

549
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 4: Trying, but it does.

550
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 3: That's where it kind of begins, right. It's a bunch

551
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 3: of these little little points of contact. It's a bunch

552
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: of like putting content and different narratives into our head.

553
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 3: It's maybe having a conversation with somebody else about a

554
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 3: podcast like this. This is a three hundred and sixty

555
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: degree change, I think in terms of the connections that

556
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 3: really facilitate us moving into like being our best selves,

557
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 3: especially in the area of money.

558
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: I think we also have to remind ourselves that change

559
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: takes a long time. And I think just like paying

560
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: off credit card debt, Hey, it took you five years

561
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: to get into that credit card debt, it's probably going

562
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: to take you years to climb back out. And the

563
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: same thing with kind of rewiring our brains. I've had

564
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: to learn this too. It's like that childhood influence sticks

565
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: for a long time, and it doesn't mean that there

566
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: isn't hope and light at the end of the tunnel.

567
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: But be patient with yourself because my goodness, it is

568
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: going to take some time and some steady movement. And

569
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: like we want to take these giant leaps and strides.

570
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: That sounds phenomenal, it's just not the way most of.

571
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 3: Us work, definitely not with money. The best thing I

572
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 3: think that we can you in terms of like setting

573
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 3: ourselves up for money being a source of health, security, confidence,

574
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 3: et cetera, is to envision kind of like I want

575
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: my financial life to feel like a jog across an

576
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 3: even surface, as opposed to a sprint up a hill

577
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 3: that I think I'm going to then coast down.

578
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, the other.

579
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: Side, because most of us could, even if we're not

580
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: great at exercise, like jog for a couple of miles uninterrupted, right,

581
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: But a sprint up up a mountain sounds tough for

582
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: even the people who jog regularly. So yeah, yeah, I

583
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: think the like that as a much healthier approach. Let's

584
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: talk about some of the other episodes that you created.

585
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: You had an episode with a guy named Melvin and

586
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:44,959
Speaker 1: with him you talked, I think a lot about the

587
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: intersection of intellect and emotions, and you guys discussed judging

588
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: verse relating to our feelings and so, yeah, what did

589
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: that look like for Melvin and how does that play

590
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: out for most folks.

591
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 3: Well, when Melvin came in, Melvin was very clear what

592
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 3: the problem was, and the problem was that his feelings

593
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 3: were in the way, and he could just get these

594
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 3: feelings out of the way, everything was going to be fine.

595
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 3: And the feelings that Melvin was having, Melvin was experiencing

596
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 3: kind of two big moves in his financial life. One

597
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 3: was that he had had a goal because Melvin's family

598
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 3: lived in an unsafe neighborhood, and the whole family had

599
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 3: a goal of we want to move out of this neighborhood.

600
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 3: We want to be someplace safer. Melvin had started a

601
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: business as a young man and had rented and then

602
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 3: done all of this this wonderful development of designing and

603
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: creating these creative studios so people could come and book

604
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 3: them for events or if they want to do a show,

605
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: or if they were recording a podcast, all kinds of

606
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: different things. But one of the locations was making money

607
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 3: and the other one was just hemorrhaging money, and so

608
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 3: Melvin needed to make some business decisions. But one of

609
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 3: the sort of context for the decisions that Melvin was

610
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 3: making he had now suddenly he was contributing a significant

611
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 3: significant portion of his income to the new home, the

612
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 3: new expense more expensive home where the family was living.

613
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 3: So it kind of felt like, again going back to

614
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 3: the theme of constraint and how we operate when we

615
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: are feeling trapped and are not sure where our next

616
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 3: move is, that situation was really causing Melvin to kind

617
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 3: of shut down and feel like he couldn't use his

618
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 3: emotions to move through the process of being able to

619
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 3: make some calls. And so when it came to like

620
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 3: controlling his emotions versus really being able to kind of

621
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 3: relate to his emotions, we started to acknowledge with Melvin, like,

622
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 3: what are these feelings telling you? What's the story of

623
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 3: the feelings? And it came out really quickly that it

624
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: wasn't even a very complex decision that had to be

625
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 3: made about closing down one of these studio spaces. On paper,

626
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 3: the numbers were very very clear. It was more the

627
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 3: emotional work of letting go of kind of what had

628
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 3: been the first baby of his business. It came to

629
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 3: letting go of some associations that Melvin had that pivoting

630
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 3: in this way felt like failure to him, which was

631
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: a really scary thing first time in his life really

632
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 3: that he had encountered that. So, like money, and this

633
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 3: is more of a global sense in my work in

634
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 3: general with the reason that I love it is like

635
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 3: money services all of this unconscious important personal meaning. So

636
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 3: when we pay attention to money, what we need to

637
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 3: make space for is the predictable reality that these financial events,

638
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 3: these financial choices, even just looking at the numbers, is

639
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 3: going to bring up stuff that then kind of is

640
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 3: in front of us that we need to work through, right,

641
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 3: And so that's what was happening with Melvin. And once

642
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 3: we started to do that, it was like he kind

643
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: of found the root and he could just run run

644
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 3: right through it.

645
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: It makes it, I mean, just thinking like in Melvin's case,

646
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 1: it could be I'm a successful entrepreneur and then giving

647
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: up on this location means it completely upends.

648
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 2: That apple part.

649
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: And I don't see that about myself anymore. I don't

650
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: feel that way about myself. So you're right, it's like

651
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: those the money or the failure in an area of

652
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: money can have all these other like cascading domino effects

653
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: on how we perceive ourselves and the people around us

654
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: and how they perceive us.

655
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 3: And that was the scary thought, right that we got

656
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 3: to with Melvin, like say, the scary thought. The scary

657
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 3: thought was he felt like if there was failure somewhere,

658
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 3: if there was a mistake. He was feeling the vulnerability

659
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 3: of all of these these the self concept that was

660
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 3: part of that, the wanting to help support his family,

661
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 3: and feeling afraid of kind of the loss of security

662
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 3: that they had achieved. All of that stuff was really

663
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 3: coming up and needing to be processed so that Melvin

664
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 3: could feel clearer about first of all, what are the

665
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 3: facts of the situation, and what are my options? And

666
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 3: then how do these options make sense to me?

667
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: I think there could be a temptation to think that, like, well,

668
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 2: assuming everything goes well, then you won't have to deal

669
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: with any of this. But I'm guessing I'm assuming Amanda,

670
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: that you'd also argue that like, well, no, no, there's

671
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 2: also these false narratives that can come out from the

672
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: perceived success in the eyes of the world, right, Like

673
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: even if like on the surface, like in the world

674
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: of business, you are actually successful not a failure. Oh

675
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: you didn't have to close your shot. There are other

676
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 2: sort of narratives that come out of that that can

677
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 2: also go sideways, and there can be like this. I

678
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: think you could just end up at the end of

679
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 2: this sort of path and think, why don't I feel satisfied,

680
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 2: like what's going on below the surface? Because actually, my

681
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 2: buddy Melvin, he actually had a shut down. I didn't

682
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 2: have to shut down. I'm actually doing doing pretty well.

683
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: Why is he so much happier than I am? But

684
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,720
Speaker 2: there's yeah, exactly, well he went and talked with Amanda

685
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 2: that way. But but yeah, I guess what I'm wanting

686
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 2: to highlight is the fact that financial success isn't always

687
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: isn't necessarily going to lead to happier outcomes either totally.

688
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 3: And the thing to really be I think most wary

689
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: of is rigidity. Anytime we are holding onto something so

690
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 3: tightly or feel like like we can only survive one outcome, right,

691
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 3: like I have to be successful or else, that's that's

692
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: a very fragile and vulnerable place to be. Whereas if

693
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 3: we envision a way of being resilient, of being adaptable,

694
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 3: of being able to encounter failures and learn because failures

695
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 3: can be the best teachers, right. I mean I failed

696
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 3: so hard I had to change careers and that was

697
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 3: like the greatest thing that ever happened to me. So

698
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 3: I think like making boom in our self concept and

699
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 3: in our concept of success to say, like the especially

700
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 3: as an entrepreneur, right that we include a vision of

701
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 3: being successful and loving ourselves and feeling like we're good

702
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: worthy people.

703
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 4: That includes not getting it right all the time.

704
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: Heart in this culture of perfectionism where we feel like

705
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: we just have to be spot on with everything.

706
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: For sure.

707
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: I don't want to like get into every single episode

708
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: that you did because I want people, I want there

709
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: to be a lot left on the five more to

710
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: go right. And there is a lot more that we

711
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: didn't uncover in each of these conversations. And you should

712
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: totally go listen to the podcast, but talk to us

713
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: just a little bit about Stella and Lucas and how

714
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: we relate to each other about money inside of a

715
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: relationship like you walked through. I would say, like some

716
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: classic money difficulties with the two of them, Can you

717
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: like just discuss how we move towards our partner relationally

718
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: in the area of money and maybe the ways that

719
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: we're kind of, I don't know, stiff arming each other

720
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: as in the context of money and harming our relationship

721
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: in the process.

722
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 3: Absolutely, some of the hallmarks of the situation with Stella

723
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 3: and Lucas were Number one, that they got married when Stella,

724
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 3: in particular was quite young. Lucas was. He came to

725
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 3: America as a skateboarder, but he had been a refugee

726
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 3: from Kazakhstan living in Belgium. That's kind of where he

727
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 3: grew up, and so there was an immigration reason for

728
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 3: them to when they met and fell in love, very

729
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 3: deeply in love. In order to make that make it

730
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 3: possible for that relationship to move forward, they got married

731
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 3: when Stella was twenty and Lucas was twenty five. So

732
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 3: when we meet, we are now five years into their

733
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 3: marriage and Stella is the breadwinner and both of the

734
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 3: spouse's work. But Stella is she's college graduate, she has

735
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 3: an executive track career path, and she's starting to think about,

736
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 3: oh my god, what does this mean for me to

737
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: be a breadwinner? This maybe wasn't the view that I

738
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 3: had in my future even as I was choosing, you know,

739
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 3: Lucas as the person who is the choice of my heart.

740
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 4: So she was really juggling with.

741
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 3: A lot of worries that she felt very ashamed about.

742
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 3: She said, you know a few times in our sessions

743
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 3: about how it feels like these are not thoughts and

744
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 3: feelings that a wife should have. She felt like she

745
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 3: was being selfish. She worried all the time that Lucas

746
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: would be emasculated because people would literally say that to

747
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 3: her face, you should worry about this. Your husband is

748
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 3: not going to be able to tolerate.

749
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:46,879
Speaker 4: Yes.

750
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 3: So, and both of them came from families where there

751
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 3: wasn't a lot of room for emotional expression either. So

752
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: it was really hard for Stella and Lucas to feel

753
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 3: like like they really needed to kind of a reaffirm

754
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 3: their connection to and commitment to each other in these

755
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 3: new set of circumstances. In a way, even though they're married,

756
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 3: they had to rechoose each other. From the perspective of adults,

757
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 3: we have to rechoose into the marriage. I mean, that's

758
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 3: the truth about commitment, is that you need to rechoose

759
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: that commitment continuously in order to stay committed to each other,

760
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 3: so kind of like accepting that that was part of

761
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 3: the work of this phase of their marriage, but also

762
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 3: that the quality of intimacy that they could have together,

763
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 3: that quality of intimacy was limited by the things that

764
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: they were not able to or were unwilling to talk about.

765
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 3: So being able to share the scary thought of you know,

766
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 3: I'm really worried that this is a dynamic that is

767
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 3: going to blow up in my face was one of

768
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 3: Stella's worries. She was very worried that if Lucas were

769
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 3: to betray her as somebody they had a close friend

770
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 3: relationship where there had been some betrayal in the marriage,

771
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 3: she just could not conceive of the level of hurt

772
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 3: and devastation that that would cause her. So she was thinking, like,

773
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 3: do I need a financial instrument to protect me here?

774
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 3: So some of our discussions were about like their interest

775
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 3: in a post nup agreement. And I'll say that like

776
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 3: in all of these conversations on the show and in

777
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 3: this work in general, there's very often something that people

778
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 3: are coming in and saying, like, I think the solution

779
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 3: is this right, and I just need to like tell

780
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 3: me how to do this solution. But what we find

781
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 3: when we kind of step back from just a straight

782
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 3: line sort of focus on getting to that solution and say, like, well,

783
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 3: we've where we commit to that solution, why don't we

784
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 3: just open up the problem a little bit more before

785
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,280
Speaker 3: we go there. And in the process of just opening

786
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 3: up the problem a little bit more helping Still and

787
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 3: Lucas have these conversations. It was kind of amazing how

788
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 3: their concept then of what the solution would be, how

789
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 3: that shifted once we got once we got the communication

790
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 3: more open, more honest, once it felt like it was

791
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 3: the two of them facing a life together and thinking

792
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 3: of themselves as a team rather than more of a

793
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 3: focus on simply like, how does this partnership serve our

794
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 3: individual needs?

795
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, and I can't help but to think of

796
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 2: something you said earlier, which is rigidity, and the fact

797
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: that she had this idea of what a relationship and

798
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 2: what marriage looked like, and so to be able to

799
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 2: revisit that and for that to be more fluid sounds awesome.

800
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: So it sounds incredibly healing.

801
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: And the right financial tactic without the right relational approach,

802
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Either we think, oh,

803
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: it's the post now that's the answer, but then it's like, actually,

804
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: it's all the communication that happens around that that's actually

805
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: way more powerful.

806
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: Seems like there's a focus on the tool as opposed

807
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 2: to like a healthier approach to what's going on within

808
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: the dynamic of But Amanda, we've got more to get to.

809
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about. Maybe we might get to

810
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 2: like this technical term that kind of connects our bodies

811
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: to our emotions. We'll get to that and more right

812
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 2: after this. All right, we're back to the break.

813
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: We're still talking with Amanda Claiman about changing our relationship

814
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: to money, And we were just talking about changing our

815
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: relationship to our partner with how we talk about money. Well, Amanda,

816
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: a very like intra personal thing is how our body

817
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: reacts to kind of the information that we're taking in

818
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: and how we feel about things. There was this famous book,

819
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: The Body Keeps Score, and it just part of it. Yeah,

820
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: I mean like even just not therapists, but a bunch

821
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: of just arm TA consumers read that book too. What

822
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: can our body reveal about our relationship to money? My

823
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: wife will sometimes talk about, like what are you feeling

824
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: in your gut when you say that, and like what,

825
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: I get what she's getting at in some ways, but

826
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: in other ways it kind of it's lost on me.

827
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 2: So can you explain that a little bit?

828
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 3: Yes, If anybody can figure out how to just be,

829
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 3: you know, a disembodied mind that wanders through through life,

830
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 3: I hope they will let me know, because you know,

831
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 3: most of us are tethered to this embodied experience and

832
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 3: we need to kind of find a way to exist

833
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 3: with some kind of peace with that, because our body

834
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 3: is the source of so much of our experience, and

835
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 3: yet it's not necessarily the thing that gets the most

836
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 3: attention from us. And I think one of the reasons

837
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 3: why the body keeps the score was as successful as

838
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 3: it was is because it really it just like made

839
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 3: such a a compelling and easy to understand case of

840
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 3: realizing how our body signals us in some ways, first

841
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 3: of all, how much we rely on our body to

842
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 3: process these things that we call thoughts and emotions, et cetera.

843
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 3: And one of the places where I would say that

844
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 3: that particularly comes up around money is around the topic

845
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 3: of physiological arousal. So our autonomic nervous system is the

846
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 3: part of our brain and body that's really tasked with

847
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 3: keeping us safe first and foremost, so anything that's going

848
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 3: to be a threat, and a very sort of like

849
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 3: concrete old school understanding of threat is like if a

850
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 3: tiger is about to jump on you, you know kind

851
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 3: of what your body does to get into fight, flight

852
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 3: or freeze as a response. But in this modern, quote

853
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 3: unquote civilized world that we live in, most of the

854
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 3: threats that we face are not necessarily as clear cut

855
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 3: and immediate as a tiger. It can be things like

856
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 3: i feel a sense of threat and vulnerability that I'm

857
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 3: not going to have my job in six months. I

858
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 3: feel a sense of threat and vulnerability that everyone in

859
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 3: my social group has more money than I do, and

860
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm in a subordinate or kind of

861
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 3: risky position. These kinds of situations can trigger the same

862
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 3: kind of threat response, a physiological arousal that would come

863
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,399
Speaker 3: in an evolutionary sort of context from a different kind

864
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:45,720
Speaker 3: of physiological threat. Now, the challenge is that what happens

865
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 3: in the body around this physiological arousal when the part

866
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 3: of our brain called the limpics system is activated, is

867
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 3: that our body is doing a survival job and survival

868
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 3: jobs in the body always go to the front of

869
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 3: the queue, always one hundred percent of the time. If

870
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 3: we're not alive, nothing else can happen. So our body

871
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 3: has an automatic way of saying, if we're in a

872
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 3: state of threat, we're going to deal with being in

873
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 3: a state of threat first and foremost before anything else

874
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 3: can go on. So when we're trying to do a

875
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 3: stressful money task, for example, a lot of times we

876
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 3: may not be conscious of the state of physiological arousal

877
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 3: that we're in. Unfortunately, what happens is, even if we

878
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 3: can manage to overcome avoidance, which is going to be

879
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 3: one of our first tactics, right, avoid the threat, get

880
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 3: away from the threat. I'm going to avoid it. Even

881
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 3: if we can somehow override that, get ourselves to put

882
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 3: the tush in the chair to do the money task.

883
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 3: Our brain, the prefrontal cortex, the part of our brain

884
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 3: that is tasked with being able to do things like

885
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 3: evaluate complexity, consider different options, anticipate consequences. Those functions in

886
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 3: the brain are literally offline for as long as we

887
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 3: are in that state of physiological arousal. So understanding the

888
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 3: state of the body is absolutely critical for us to

889
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 3: be able to do the work the higher sort of level,

890
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 3: the higher level cognitive work involved in being able to

891
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 3: do these money tasks. So I think that it is

892
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 3: I think we need to take that seriously. I think

893
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 3: that we need to be humble in saying, like, you know,

894
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 3: my body is going to be in charge of what

895
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 3: this experience is. I can't always just tell my body

896
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 3: what to do, and we need to work in partnership

897
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:44,280
Speaker 3: with our body, which means being in more accepting connection

898
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 3: with our emotional life, which is what's creating the meaning,

899
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 3: which is what's kind of creating the sense of threat.

900
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 4: If that makes sense.

901
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, like what exactly does that look like? Again,

902
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 2: I'm thinking back to some previous previous examples that you've shared,

903
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: and what I hear is maybe being like being more flexible.

904
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 2: But what does that look like as far as being

905
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 2: able to be accepting of what our body is telling us?

906
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: And how do we recognize that? Is it journaling? Like

907
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: that's something that came to mind? Is it like, say, Okay,

908
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 2: today was stressful, Let me sit down and just write

909
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 2: because I don't think I have anything to say, but

910
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 2: maybe I do, and maybe I just need to write

911
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: a little bit. Is would that be an example of

912
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: a way for us to kind of be aware of

913
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 2: that or just asking the question, how does this make

914
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: me feel? I don't know.

915
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I absolutely love that kind of introspection.

916
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 4: I love journaling. But I mean even in.

917
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 3: More practical, concrete ways, just in terms of money tasks,

918
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 3: there are a couple of things that we can do

919
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 3: that really help the body be able to do its

920
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 3: work of self regulation. Number one is when we have

921
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 3: a kind of like when we're trying to assign ourselves

922
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,959
Speaker 3: a money task, that we give that task not only

923
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,240
Speaker 3: a beginning time, but we give it an end time.

924
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,479
Speaker 3: So it's not like I'm going to deep dive into

925
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 3: my finance for the next five hours, leaving myself emotionally

926
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 3: exhausted and physically depleted. It's like, I am going to

927
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 3: do this specific task. I'm going to start it at

928
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 3: two point thirty and I'm going to end it at

929
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 3: three o'clock. And even just having control over how we

930
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 3: structure the task. And this is a cognitive behavioral technique

931
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 3: right here, Like how we practice opening up this box

932
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 3: called money, working with the contents of that box, putting

933
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 3: the things back in the box, closing the box and

934
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 3: putting it away so that we can have non money time.

935
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 3: So like having that start and specifically the end time

936
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,399
Speaker 3: can be a really helpful way to kind of give

937
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 3: our body, to let our body know that it's going

938
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 3: to be engaging in a task, but that task is

939
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 3: under control. It's not like we're giving up control. We

940
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 3: still maintain some control over that. And the second part

941
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 3: of this where we can really work with our body

942
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 3: around this, is to give ourselves a transition into the task.

943
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 3: So like, if money is a a really emotionally triggering thing,

944
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 3: if you already know that this is something that pushes

945
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 3: your buttons, find a way to not just kind of

946
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 3: like have the task, but to bring yourself into the

947
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 3: space of it in a more regulated way. So, like

948
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 3: my go to for a little while this fall, because

949
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 3: I have a twelve year old daughter and I got

950
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 3: very introduced to the world of Taylor Swift this year,

951
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 3: was like I got really obsessed with her ten minute

952
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 3: version of All Too Well, and I could play that

953
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 3: song and that song would take me on.

954
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 4: A journey that had a beginning, middle, and end, and.

955
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 3: I would feel my feelings for that ten minutes and

956
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 3: at the end, I would feel calmer for having just

957
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 3: spent ten minutes feeling my feelings, and I would be

958
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 3: able to move with a little bit more fluidity into

959
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 3: that next task because I had already done the job

960
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 3: of facing my feelings, experiencing them, and giving my body

961
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 3: that ten minutes to be able to come to a

962
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 3: state of lowered arousal and hopefully some calm.

963
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 4: Does that make sense.

964
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, giving yourself room to Yeah, Like, we're not robots.

965
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: We're not just immediately going from like program A to

966
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 2: program B.

967
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: It's like from a stressful work meeting directly to family dinner.

968
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's not gonna work. Well, No, there's gonna

969
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: be some overhang from the last hour that you spent,

970
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: like maybe in some sort of awful setting, and you're

971
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: gonna accidentally take it out in your family. Whereas if

972
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: you had, like you said, transition time, if you had

973
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 1: some sort of transition that you go through if you're

974
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: working from home, and maybe it's a song, maybe it's

975
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:38,919
Speaker 1: maybe it's a ten minute walk around the block, whatever

976
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: it is that gives you that break in between that's

977
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,399
Speaker 1: going to help facilitate a better atmosphere for the next

978
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 1: thing you're going into. So I think that's right, and

979
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: we're not as effective as we could be in the

980
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: things that we're doing because we don't take the time

981
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: to enter into them. Well, Amanda, you rock. Thank you

982
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: so much for joining us today on the podcast. Where

983
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: can our listeners go to find your new podcast and

984
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: kind of find out more of the stuff that.

985
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 2: You are on to.

986
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can find the podcast on Audible. The name

987
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: of the show again is Emotional Investment. It's an Audible original,

988
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 3: so it's free for Audible subscribers, or you can buy

989
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 3: it just like you would buy a book, or you

990
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 3: can do a trial of Audible see if you like

991
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 3: it and access the content there. For me, the easiest

992
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 3: place to find me is if you remember my name,

993
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 3: Amanda Claiman. You can find me at my website. That

994
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,359
Speaker 3: will link to all of my socials and yeah, I'm

995
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 3: out and about in all the spaces that's right.

996
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll link to all that in our show notes

997
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 2: as well. Amanda, thank you so much for talking to

998
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 2: us today.

999
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 3: Thanks guys, it's really been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

1000
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 2: Okay, Joel, about halfway through, I thought that maybe we

1001
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 2: should have called this episode your money DTR nemem we're

1002
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 2: having a DTR talk? Sure do significant others in high school?

1003
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's actually I'm super curious if DTR

1004
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 2: is still a thing. But defining the relationship that was

1005
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 2: a big deal after going on a couple of casual

1006
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 2: dates and you're like, Hey, what's what's going on right

1007
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 2: here between you and me? We just playing around. Hopefully

1008
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: folks are able to have their own DTR with their money,

1009
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 2: But yeah, what was your big takeaway with our conversation

1010
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 2: with Amanda Clayman?

1011
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: All Right, I wrote this down, I think word for

1012
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 1: word when she said it, because I was so struck

1013
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: by it. And she said, you can't have time where

1014
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: you aren't thinking about money, if you don't have time

1015
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: where you intentionally are thinking about money, and I was like,

1016
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 1: that's we talk about this. Look the the twelve percent

1017
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 1: or twelve point reduction in IQ that people face when

1018
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: they're constantly under money stress. It is the cloud over

1019
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: your head that messes with you constantly if you can't

1020
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 1: get it under control. And that is just reinforces. It's

1021
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 1: just another way of saying it that, Hey, if you

1022
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: don't have time on your calendar, with your significant other

1023
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: and with your win NAB account or whatever it is

1024
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: to kind of figure some of these things out, to put.

1025
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 2: A plan together.

1026
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, then you're going to be constantly thinking about it.

1027
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: It's going to be that constant emotional disruptor in your life.

1028
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: And we all know what that feels like. We know

1029
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,479
Speaker 1: what it feels like to not know where we're going

1030
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: and to feel pretty aimless and to feel like money

1031
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: is happening to us rather than the opposite way around. Yeah,

1032
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: it's not that you have to have a five hour

1033
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: sit down, like Amanda said, but just small bits and

1034
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: chunks here and there to start moving in the right

1035
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: direction is so powerful from an actual getting the thing

1036
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: done perspective, but also from kind of how you feel

1037
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: about life and how money impacts your life too.

1038
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 2: And isn't that the essence of CBT, like the gold

1039
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 2: standard of cognitive behavioral therapy is to is to address

1040
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 2: it head on? And like, is that not what a

1041
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 2: budget is? To sit down and cred a plan for

1042
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 2: your money? And so that's what I like, as she

1043
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 2: was talking through that, That's what I was thinking the

1044
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 2: whole time, is that, like, yes, you have to sit

1045
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 2: down and talk about it and put a plan together

1046
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 2: and then guess what, then you don't You've earned the

1047
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 2: right and the ability to not have to think about

1048
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 2: it for the rest of the month or occasionally if

1049
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 2: you need to check back in and see where we're

1050
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,879
Speaker 2: spending is for her story reflected that spot on right,

1051
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 2: that she didn't have a plan behind by ignoring it,

1052
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 2: and yeah, with sticking your head in the sand, the

1053
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 2: situation only out where the.

1054
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:00,720
Speaker 1: Most joyous period of her life was putting together a budget,

1055
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:05,320
Speaker 1: which actually she realized was free, not controlling, not constraining.

1056
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my big takeaway is going to be when

1057
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:09,720
Speaker 2: she was talking about doing the work. And it's funny

1058
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 2: because I think both you and I were both immediately

1059
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,240
Speaker 2: kind of going into a more counselly kind of direction

1060
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 2: of like reflection, awareness, journaling perhaps and she and she

1061
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 2: was like, well, those are all good, but and she

1062
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 2: was talking about, actually I was thinking more concrete measures

1063
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 2: and steps that you can take and specifically just like

1064
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 2: doing the task, which kind of dovetails into your big takeaway,

1065
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 2: And she specifically was pointed out how knowing that there

1066
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 2: is going to be a beginning to this task but

1067
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: then also an end this isn't some sort of perpetual

1068
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 2: state that you are going to be in. I love

1069
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 2: the picture of pulling out the box, opening the box,

1070
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 2: you know, doing the thing, putting it back in the box,

1071
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 2: and closing it. And yes, like like literally that's what

1072
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 2: I do when I open and close my budget file,

1073
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 2: you know, like it's removed from my mind when it's

1074
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 2: not there, I'm not at all thinking about it. It

1075
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 2: was that, and her other concrete piece of information was

1076
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 2: that transition, the ability to build in time and not

1077
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 2: going from one thing to another. It makes me think

1078
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 2: of so the.

1079
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: Beer vibe can be so handy. It's like you're setting

1080
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: the table for a more productive, more casual approach to it,

1081
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 1: as opposed to feeling like I got to make all

1082
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 1: the progress in one fell swoop.

1083
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah, it makes me think of I was gonna say.

1084
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 2: Our pastor talked recently about how he like automatically builds

1085
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 2: in fifteen minute segments of time before and after meetings.

1086
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 2: That way, he's not just going from one thing to

1087
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 2: another to allow some of that time to decompress. And

1088
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 2: I think that can be mean. I think that is

1089
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 2: so healthy, and I think that can be incredibly beneficial

1090
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 2: when it comes to our when it comes to our

1091
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 2: finances as well. But yeah, glad we got to have

1092
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 2: a nice conversation with Amanda Claiman. Let's introduce the beer

1093
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 2: that you and I enjoyed today was a fort point.

1094
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 2: This is a pale ale by Trillium out of Boston, Massachusetts.

1095
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So I got thoughts lucky to pick this one

1096
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:54,959
Speaker 1: up because there was some beer festival in town and

1097
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 1: one of my favorite bottle shops, which is like right

1098
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: by my parents' house. Actually it's like ten minutes from mine.

1099
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: Just a punch of Trillium and some other goodies, and

1100
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 1: so I am made a point to stop by there

1101
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,439
Speaker 1: to pick up the good stuff that I could while

1102
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 1: it lasted. And this bear did not disappoint because Trillium

1103
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: has never disappointed.

1104
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 2: E're one of the best, man They are so stinking good.

1105
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for a pale ale in particular, like palels

1106
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 1: can be a little lacking at times, right, I've had

1107
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: some boring pale ales in my day.

1108
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 2: This was not a boring paleo, No, you know this was.

1109
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 1: This one was like juicy, it was full, It was

1110
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: impactful to my taste buds.

1111
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 2: They thoroughly enjoyed it. Juicy, citrusy like it felt really

1112
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 2: wet like as I was drinking it, and then what

1113
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 2: they say about soap like fund your tongue, Like they

1114
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 2: say the reason that soap works is because it makes

1115
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 2: water wetter than water actually is and it causes the thing.

1116
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 2: I've heard that before, and that's kind of what I

1117
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 2: felt about this As I was drinking. I'm like, this

1118
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 2: is this is wetter than water. It was really hydrating too,

1119
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 2: I hear, yeah, it's really good it Uh. It was

1120
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 2: like it felt really light in the mouth but packed

1121
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 2: so much flavor with all the I assume hops and

1122
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 2: other cool stuff that they include when they brewed this beer.

1123
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, glad you were able to pick this one

1124
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 2: up and then we got to enjoy it today on

1125
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 2: the podcast. But that's gonna be it. We will link

1126
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 2: to some of the different resources that Amanda mentioned up

1127
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 2: on the website at howmoney dot com. No doubt that's

1128
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 2: gonna be it, right for sure? Until next time, Best

1129
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 2: Friends Out, Best Friends Out,