1 00:00:15,604 --> 00:00:16,084 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:21,004 --> 00:00:24,924 Speaker 2: Thank you guys so much for writing in last week 3 00:00:24,964 --> 00:00:27,484 Speaker 2: and giving us your feedback about the show. We really 4 00:00:27,484 --> 00:00:30,684 Speaker 2: appreciate that, and we're going to ask you to write 5 00:00:30,684 --> 00:00:33,764 Speaker 2: in one more time, this time with one any questions 6 00:00:33,804 --> 00:00:37,124 Speaker 2: that you have about your lives, decisions that you're making, 7 00:00:37,764 --> 00:00:40,084 Speaker 2: things that you might want to know the expected value of, 8 00:00:40,484 --> 00:00:42,164 Speaker 2: and Nate and I are going to do our best 9 00:00:42,244 --> 00:00:45,804 Speaker 2: to have some segments where we respond to those questions. 10 00:00:46,004 --> 00:00:50,884 Speaker 2: So again, our email is Risky Business at Pushkin dot fm, 11 00:00:50,924 --> 00:00:53,364 Speaker 2: all one word, and we hope to hear from you, 12 00:00:53,444 --> 00:00:55,684 Speaker 2: and we hope to see some of your life dilemmas 13 00:00:55,724 --> 00:01:03,884 Speaker 2: and hopefully we'll help you with them. Welcome back to 14 00:01:03,964 --> 00:01:07,124 Speaker 2: Risky Business, our show about making better decisions. I'm Maria 15 00:01:07,204 --> 00:01:09,204 Speaker 2: Kanakova and I'm Nate Silver. 16 00:01:11,044 --> 00:01:13,084 Speaker 3: Today on the show, we know a lot of you 17 00:01:13,124 --> 00:01:15,324 Speaker 3: are in their process of traveling to and from places, 18 00:01:15,364 --> 00:01:19,124 Speaker 3: so we'll have Nate and Marie's guide to gto travel. 19 00:01:19,284 --> 00:01:20,884 Speaker 3: What do we do with people who think a lot 20 00:01:20,924 --> 00:01:24,844 Speaker 3: about optimization to make our lives easier when we travel? 21 00:01:24,884 --> 00:01:27,924 Speaker 3: And then what glaring and hypocritical mistakes do we make 22 00:01:27,964 --> 00:01:30,124 Speaker 3: as you'll also find out about and. 23 00:01:30,164 --> 00:01:32,444 Speaker 2: After that We're going to switch gears and talk about 24 00:01:32,564 --> 00:01:37,644 Speaker 2: cheating in academia, in business schools, and specifically with several 25 00:01:37,684 --> 00:01:41,844 Speaker 2: researchers who have been accused of cheating in cheating research 26 00:01:42,364 --> 00:01:47,804 Speaker 2: research on dishonesty. So that'll be a fun one, especially 27 00:01:47,804 --> 00:01:49,844 Speaker 2: for me since I'm working on a book about cheating. 28 00:01:53,684 --> 00:01:56,764 Speaker 2: So this is Thanksgiving week. We're taping this on Tuesday. 29 00:01:57,004 --> 00:01:58,924 Speaker 2: By the time everyone hears that, it will actually be 30 00:01:58,964 --> 00:02:01,964 Speaker 2: Thanksgiving and they will already be at their destination, we hope, 31 00:02:02,124 --> 00:02:06,284 Speaker 2: unless some major travelsnaff's happened. But this will still be 32 00:02:06,444 --> 00:02:09,004 Speaker 2: very useful because we're in holiday season right, We're going 33 00:02:09,044 --> 00:02:12,964 Speaker 2: to have holiday travel all through December as well. Nate, 34 00:02:13,004 --> 00:02:14,684 Speaker 2: are you traveling for Thanksgiving this year? 35 00:02:15,404 --> 00:02:18,324 Speaker 3: Yeah, going to Kansas City to see my partner's family. 36 00:02:19,524 --> 00:02:21,004 Speaker 3: I got a lot of travel, my whole I got 37 00:02:21,044 --> 00:02:25,484 Speaker 3: and then we're going to Vegas, then Japan, Korea at 38 00:02:25,484 --> 00:02:28,244 Speaker 3: some point probably make it home to Michigan. So I 39 00:02:28,324 --> 00:02:30,924 Speaker 3: need these tips, Maria. 40 00:02:31,364 --> 00:02:34,244 Speaker 2: All Right, So we're going to actually do this segment 41 00:02:34,364 --> 00:02:38,444 Speaker 2: in a slightly different fun way, I hope fun, and 42 00:02:38,524 --> 00:02:40,764 Speaker 2: we're going to ask each other questions. Nate and I 43 00:02:40,844 --> 00:02:43,084 Speaker 2: do not know what the questions are We have not 44 00:02:43,524 --> 00:02:46,804 Speaker 2: seen each other's questions ahead of time, so this is 45 00:02:46,884 --> 00:02:49,804 Speaker 2: going to be kind of a spur of the moment 46 00:02:50,404 --> 00:02:54,604 Speaker 2: response to each other. Nate, Shall I start us off 47 00:02:54,604 --> 00:02:55,244 Speaker 2: with our questions? 48 00:02:55,444 --> 00:02:56,524 Speaker 3: How you start? Yeah? 49 00:02:56,604 --> 00:02:57,644 Speaker 1: All right, all right? 50 00:02:57,724 --> 00:03:00,524 Speaker 2: Question number one? How early should you get to the airport? 51 00:03:02,084 --> 00:03:04,204 Speaker 3: Oh? Boy, Robbie and I my partner, are just having 52 00:03:04,244 --> 00:03:05,444 Speaker 3: an argument about this today. 53 00:03:06,684 --> 00:03:08,844 Speaker 1: I love it. Those are the best arguments. 54 00:03:09,804 --> 00:03:12,924 Speaker 3: I aim. Traditionally, I aim to be at the airport 55 00:03:13,004 --> 00:03:17,044 Speaker 3: an hour before departure time for a domestic flight. It's 56 00:03:17,084 --> 00:03:21,044 Speaker 3: departure time, not boarding time. Now, in practice, like the 57 00:03:21,044 --> 00:03:24,684 Speaker 3: security system has improved, I have like pre check. Actually 58 00:03:24,684 --> 00:03:26,764 Speaker 3: don't have pre check, which is weird. Nate. 59 00:03:27,444 --> 00:03:30,764 Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to talk about this. Okay, everyone listening. 60 00:03:31,124 --> 00:03:33,444 Speaker 2: This is like the number one thing to do in 61 00:03:33,604 --> 00:03:38,524 Speaker 2: gto travel, get tsa pre check, get global entry if 62 00:03:38,564 --> 00:03:42,604 Speaker 2: you travel abroad. I am shocked that my co host 63 00:03:42,724 --> 00:03:44,524 Speaker 2: could be so neglitch of Nate. 64 00:03:44,764 --> 00:03:47,484 Speaker 3: Well, there are workarounds. Clear is pretty good. Clear is 65 00:03:47,524 --> 00:03:53,724 Speaker 3: basically pre check. No I should I should? Yeah, I'm 66 00:03:53,764 --> 00:03:56,284 Speaker 3: committing like the sunk cost. I'm committing lots of cognitive 67 00:03:56,404 --> 00:03:57,684 Speaker 3: errors by not doing that. 68 00:03:57,724 --> 00:04:02,324 Speaker 2: You're right, yes, all right, So without pre check, I 69 00:04:02,364 --> 00:04:05,004 Speaker 2: would say, and without clear you should probably be getting 70 00:04:05,004 --> 00:04:08,964 Speaker 2: to the airport earlier then one hour, right, especially around 71 00:04:08,964 --> 00:04:10,444 Speaker 2: the holiday because the lines going. 72 00:04:10,444 --> 00:04:14,204 Speaker 3: Maybe the holidays in particular. I mean, look, yeah, if 73 00:04:14,204 --> 00:04:17,284 Speaker 3: you arrive at the airport an hour before departure time 74 00:04:17,884 --> 00:04:21,324 Speaker 3: for a domestic flight, you should not miss your flight 75 00:04:21,404 --> 00:04:24,884 Speaker 3: if you have, unless you're in like the cattle car 76 00:04:24,924 --> 00:04:28,404 Speaker 3: line with no clear or no premium or anything like that. Right, 77 00:04:28,404 --> 00:04:30,684 Speaker 3: you should be able to make it through on time. 78 00:04:30,964 --> 00:04:33,684 Speaker 2: All right, Well, I actually happen to agree with you 79 00:04:33,724 --> 00:04:36,604 Speaker 2: on this. One an hour is what I do as well. 80 00:04:36,684 --> 00:04:39,484 Speaker 2: For domestic travel around the holidays, especially if you don't 81 00:04:39,484 --> 00:04:42,724 Speaker 2: have tsa pre check like some people, you might want 82 00:04:42,764 --> 00:04:46,284 Speaker 2: to consider longer. But if you are in that cattle 83 00:04:46,324 --> 00:04:49,004 Speaker 2: line with no pre check, no anything, and you are 84 00:04:49,044 --> 00:04:52,084 Speaker 2: cutting it close, come up to the agents and tell 85 00:04:52,084 --> 00:04:54,924 Speaker 2: them what time your flight is. They will often let 86 00:04:54,924 --> 00:04:58,444 Speaker 2: you skip the line and actually not miss your flight 87 00:04:58,484 --> 00:05:00,444 Speaker 2: because they don't want you missing your flight either, because 88 00:05:00,484 --> 00:05:03,244 Speaker 2: that fucks up travel for everyone. 89 00:05:03,764 --> 00:05:06,004 Speaker 3: Maria, what is your best travel hack? 90 00:05:07,324 --> 00:05:11,684 Speaker 2: My best travel hack is never checking luggage. And when 91 00:05:11,764 --> 00:05:16,724 Speaker 2: I say never, I actually mean never I am a female, 92 00:05:16,924 --> 00:05:20,764 Speaker 2: as people might have noticed, and I am capable of 93 00:05:20,804 --> 00:05:24,484 Speaker 2: going on a month long trip, six week long trip 94 00:05:24,884 --> 00:05:28,044 Speaker 2: with just carry ons. I have a carry on suitcase, 95 00:05:28,244 --> 00:05:30,644 Speaker 2: a little you know, roller board which is the MAC size, 96 00:05:30,724 --> 00:05:33,004 Speaker 2: and I have a backpack which has which is always 97 00:05:33,084 --> 00:05:36,884 Speaker 2: my extra travel thing in the backpack fits a lot 98 00:05:36,924 --> 00:05:37,404 Speaker 2: as well. 99 00:05:37,684 --> 00:05:38,764 Speaker 1: And I am very. 100 00:05:38,684 --> 00:05:43,324 Speaker 2: Very good at recycling outfits, at packing, you know, very 101 00:05:44,044 --> 00:05:48,164 Speaker 2: packing very well, so that I can manage without any 102 00:05:48,204 --> 00:05:51,444 Speaker 2: carry ons. I think this saves you huge amounts of time, 103 00:05:51,604 --> 00:05:54,524 Speaker 2: huge amounts of hassle. I don't have a single friend 104 00:05:54,644 --> 00:05:57,244 Speaker 2: or family member who has checked luggage who has not 105 00:05:57,324 --> 00:06:00,564 Speaker 2: had it lost at some point. And yeah, so I 106 00:06:00,564 --> 00:06:02,764 Speaker 2: think that that's the single best piece of advice I 107 00:06:02,804 --> 00:06:05,324 Speaker 2: can offer. Learn to pack light, Do not check your 108 00:06:05,324 --> 00:06:07,124 Speaker 2: bags if. 109 00:06:07,004 --> 00:06:09,204 Speaker 3: You are going to an international destination and you have 110 00:06:09,204 --> 00:06:13,004 Speaker 3: to your customs when you arrive. There's less cost to 111 00:06:13,044 --> 00:06:15,044 Speaker 3: that because I mean, I'm generally agreeing, right, but like 112 00:06:15,324 --> 00:06:18,804 Speaker 3: because there by the time you're through customs, magically your 113 00:06:18,844 --> 00:06:20,684 Speaker 3: bags might be there at the little carousel. But yeah, 114 00:06:20,844 --> 00:06:23,884 Speaker 3: I mean, the the risk of having your bag. I'm 115 00:06:23,924 --> 00:06:26,844 Speaker 3: surprised that more strangers don't like steal people's bags. Right. 116 00:06:26,924 --> 00:06:29,644 Speaker 2: It's it's so weird because you have all the security 117 00:06:29,644 --> 00:06:31,884 Speaker 2: in the airport and then like you get to the 118 00:06:32,044 --> 00:06:35,444 Speaker 2: carousel and like take your pick, tack whatever you want. 119 00:06:35,924 --> 00:06:39,604 Speaker 2: So I am actually shocked that, you know, knowing what 120 00:06:39,644 --> 00:06:41,924 Speaker 2: we know about human nature, I'm shocked that more bags 121 00:06:41,924 --> 00:06:45,124 Speaker 2: don't get stolen. All right, Next question, Nate, what is 122 00:06:45,164 --> 00:06:49,524 Speaker 2: your most underrated thing to always pack when you're traveling? 123 00:06:50,764 --> 00:06:52,004 Speaker 3: A podcast? Microphone? 124 00:06:52,044 --> 00:06:56,164 Speaker 1: Like, I okay, that's amazing. 125 00:06:56,884 --> 00:07:00,124 Speaker 3: I usually bring a little bit of cash because you 126 00:07:00,204 --> 00:07:01,844 Speaker 3: never know when you're gonna get bored and there might 127 00:07:01,844 --> 00:07:02,804 Speaker 3: be a poker room nearby. 128 00:07:03,404 --> 00:07:06,164 Speaker 2: M h, this is this is very good. That is 129 00:07:06,244 --> 00:07:08,804 Speaker 2: that is very good advice. I think you should always 130 00:07:08,844 --> 00:07:10,404 Speaker 2: have cash on you, and you should always have more 131 00:07:10,404 --> 00:07:11,404 Speaker 2: cash than you think you need. 132 00:07:11,644 --> 00:07:12,964 Speaker 1: Don't go over the limits. 133 00:07:14,524 --> 00:07:18,884 Speaker 3: Well, the limits are internationally there's a ten thousand dollars limit. 134 00:07:19,364 --> 00:07:24,804 Speaker 3: Domestically there's not supposed to be, although I've had a 135 00:07:24,804 --> 00:07:26,644 Speaker 3: problem with it one So bestally, if you fly to 136 00:07:26,764 --> 00:07:30,204 Speaker 3: like Vegas or New York, people are used to having 137 00:07:30,244 --> 00:07:31,924 Speaker 3: a lot of cash in those cities. I don't know 138 00:07:31,924 --> 00:07:33,404 Speaker 3: what people are doing with the cash in New York, 139 00:07:33,444 --> 00:07:36,364 Speaker 3: but like you know, some some law off the records 140 00:07:36,364 --> 00:07:41,924 Speaker 3: something or another. Yeah. I mean if an uninformed security 141 00:07:41,964 --> 00:07:44,004 Speaker 3: person asks do you have more than ten thousand dollars, 142 00:07:44,044 --> 00:07:46,844 Speaker 3: and you should say I'm allowed to because I'm American 143 00:07:46,884 --> 00:07:51,444 Speaker 3: citizens is my currency and what you might call it, 144 00:07:51,524 --> 00:07:53,604 Speaker 3: and like, I'm not flying internationally where these rules apply. 145 00:07:55,244 --> 00:07:57,444 Speaker 3: Don't like try to bring fifty thousand dollars like the 146 00:07:57,444 --> 00:08:00,364 Speaker 3: Bahamas or something. That's a really big mistake. 147 00:08:00,684 --> 00:08:02,204 Speaker 1: That's a horrible mistake. Yep. 148 00:08:02,924 --> 00:08:05,684 Speaker 3: So what's what's the best airport? What's your favorite airport? 149 00:08:07,044 --> 00:08:11,404 Speaker 2: My favorite airport, I would say say is Heathrow because 150 00:08:11,644 --> 00:08:15,484 Speaker 2: talk about nice places to hang out, nice places to eat. 151 00:08:16,244 --> 00:08:20,604 Speaker 2: I don't think anything can beat Heathrow. I mean you can, yeah, 152 00:08:20,644 --> 00:08:20,964 Speaker 2: you can. 153 00:08:20,924 --> 00:08:24,804 Speaker 3: Do associate with like very very very long lines and 154 00:08:24,964 --> 00:08:25,684 Speaker 3: very I hate. 155 00:08:25,764 --> 00:08:29,604 Speaker 2: So here's the thing, So what's my most My favorite 156 00:08:29,604 --> 00:08:32,484 Speaker 2: airport to travel through is absolutely not Heathrow. Right, he 157 00:08:32,604 --> 00:08:34,404 Speaker 2: throws a nightmare in terms of lines. But if I 158 00:08:34,444 --> 00:08:36,044 Speaker 2: have to be stuck in an airport, I want to 159 00:08:36,044 --> 00:08:39,124 Speaker 2: be stuck in Heathrow because I can get good food, right, 160 00:08:39,204 --> 00:08:42,244 Speaker 2: I can. I can go to the fucking caviar bar there. 161 00:08:42,844 --> 00:08:46,084 Speaker 2: I can, you know, and there are good bookshops, which 162 00:08:46,124 --> 00:08:49,044 Speaker 2: I really admit, Like, I really like that, and it's 163 00:08:49,084 --> 00:08:51,084 Speaker 2: just it's nice, right. There are lots of places to 164 00:08:51,124 --> 00:08:55,684 Speaker 2: spend time in terms of efficiency. Absolutely not Heathrow. I 165 00:08:55,724 --> 00:08:58,284 Speaker 2: don't like traveling through Heathrow. I have heard so I 166 00:08:58,284 --> 00:09:00,244 Speaker 2: haven't done a lot of travel through Asia, but I 167 00:09:00,284 --> 00:09:03,004 Speaker 2: have heard that some of the best airports in the 168 00:09:03,044 --> 00:09:06,044 Speaker 2: world are some of the Asian airports that are like 169 00:09:06,204 --> 00:09:10,884 Speaker 2: many countries with you know, tropical rainforests. I look forward 170 00:09:10,924 --> 00:09:14,444 Speaker 2: to visiting those one day. All right, Nate, let's let's 171 00:09:14,484 --> 00:09:16,884 Speaker 2: do the other way. What's the most overrated airport? 172 00:09:18,884 --> 00:09:22,724 Speaker 3: Uh? You know, I think La. I mean La. The 173 00:09:22,764 --> 00:09:25,044 Speaker 3: problem is, like all these terminals are changing and turning 174 00:09:25,084 --> 00:09:27,364 Speaker 3: around and so like I used to think there's some 175 00:09:27,484 --> 00:09:32,444 Speaker 3: terminals in lax that are like quite annoying. Miami Airport 176 00:09:32,524 --> 00:09:35,804 Speaker 3: is kind of a total shit show. Fort Lardale might 177 00:09:35,844 --> 00:09:38,004 Speaker 3: be a little bit better, but then it takes over 178 00:09:38,044 --> 00:09:40,084 Speaker 3: to get an uber. Yeah, those are on the Natelet 179 00:09:40,124 --> 00:09:42,844 Speaker 3: you know, Phoenix is kind of a shitty airport. 180 00:09:43,964 --> 00:09:45,804 Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to add one that you haven't 181 00:09:45,844 --> 00:09:48,524 Speaker 2: to the over rated airport, which is O'Hare because people 182 00:09:48,564 --> 00:09:51,444 Speaker 2: always say that O'Hare is so, you know, lovely and efficient, 183 00:09:51,524 --> 00:09:54,124 Speaker 2: But I think O'Hare is such a shit show. And 184 00:09:54,244 --> 00:09:56,604 Speaker 2: I have never been delayed more often than I have 185 00:09:56,724 --> 00:09:57,444 Speaker 2: been in O'Hare. 186 00:09:57,684 --> 00:09:59,204 Speaker 3: Yeah, I used to. And again I can you blame 187 00:09:59,244 --> 00:10:01,324 Speaker 3: airports for having I mean, they have two airlines that 188 00:10:01,364 --> 00:10:04,284 Speaker 3: try to have hubs there, but like, yeah, and like 189 00:10:04,524 --> 00:10:07,084 Speaker 3: the facilities have not been like updated O'Hare, No, they 190 00:10:07,084 --> 00:10:09,244 Speaker 3: haven't a long time. They do have a Tortesse Fronterra, 191 00:10:09,444 --> 00:10:12,084 Speaker 3: which is like this amazing Rick Bayliss restaurant, but like, 192 00:10:12,404 --> 00:10:14,724 Speaker 3: but there's never any place to like sit down. And 193 00:10:14,764 --> 00:10:16,284 Speaker 3: if you do have like one of those long winter 194 00:10:16,364 --> 00:10:18,444 Speaker 3: delays in Chicago, then it's pretty unpleasant. 195 00:10:18,804 --> 00:10:21,124 Speaker 2: It is, it is pretty unpleasant. And also talk about 196 00:10:21,124 --> 00:10:23,404 Speaker 2: having to walk far Ohara is one of those airports 197 00:10:23,404 --> 00:10:26,044 Speaker 2: where you might be walking for half an hour before 198 00:10:26,084 --> 00:10:28,044 Speaker 2: you finally take it to your destination. 199 00:10:29,684 --> 00:10:31,964 Speaker 3: Maria, what is your go to airport meal? 200 00:10:33,844 --> 00:10:37,404 Speaker 2: My go to airport meal is I actually bring food 201 00:10:37,484 --> 00:10:41,244 Speaker 2: with me? I refuse, so I never eat on planes. 202 00:10:41,764 --> 00:10:45,204 Speaker 2: I don't care unless there are some exceptions, like when 203 00:10:45,324 --> 00:10:48,804 Speaker 2: I fly to Hong Kong, right where I'm on a 204 00:10:48,844 --> 00:10:51,724 Speaker 2: plane for so long that it's not even funny. Or 205 00:10:51,724 --> 00:10:54,844 Speaker 2: when I, you know, when I fly to South Africa, 206 00:10:54,924 --> 00:10:57,684 Speaker 2: like when I fly somewhere really really really far away. 207 00:10:58,044 --> 00:11:01,964 Speaker 2: But otherwise I don't eat on airplanes. And that's actually, 208 00:11:02,204 --> 00:11:06,164 Speaker 2: by the way, little tip from kind of the psychology 209 00:11:06,324 --> 00:11:09,284 Speaker 2: of sleep and how to help your body adjust to 210 00:11:10,004 --> 00:11:12,404 Speaker 2: time zones. I did a lot of research on this 211 00:11:12,484 --> 00:11:16,284 Speaker 2: and spend some time with the best sleep researchers at 212 00:11:16,284 --> 00:11:18,964 Speaker 2: Harvard for a fellowship. I did it at one point, 213 00:11:19,284 --> 00:11:21,804 Speaker 2: and that's one of the best hacks that you can 214 00:11:22,284 --> 00:11:25,004 Speaker 2: have in order to transition and to not be jet 215 00:11:25,044 --> 00:11:27,484 Speaker 2: lagged is do not eat on the airplane, but do 216 00:11:27,724 --> 00:11:32,444 Speaker 2: drink a lot. So I usually will get sushi actually 217 00:11:32,724 --> 00:11:35,684 Speaker 2: ahead of time and will bring sushi because I like 218 00:11:35,724 --> 00:11:38,444 Speaker 2: to eat something really nice and light and. 219 00:11:38,444 --> 00:11:40,444 Speaker 3: Eat it at the air Allow take that through security. 220 00:11:40,724 --> 00:11:44,604 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can absolutely take sushi through security. That's it's 221 00:11:44,644 --> 00:11:45,644 Speaker 2: not a liquid. 222 00:11:46,724 --> 00:11:51,164 Speaker 3: It's liquid sauce. About the soy sauce, you don't. 223 00:11:50,964 --> 00:11:52,884 Speaker 2: Have to eat so the soy sauce I've actually never 224 00:11:52,924 --> 00:11:54,924 Speaker 2: had a problem with. But if you do have a 225 00:11:54,964 --> 00:11:58,364 Speaker 2: problem and they confiscate your soy sauce, there is always 226 00:11:58,444 --> 00:11:59,364 Speaker 2: soy sauce. 227 00:11:59,604 --> 00:12:03,044 Speaker 1: And the Panda Express exactly just just. 228 00:12:03,084 --> 00:12:06,164 Speaker 2: Go go somewhere in the airport and get soy sauce. 229 00:12:06,284 --> 00:12:09,364 Speaker 2: But I recommend eat light, no carbs, do not eat pea. 230 00:12:09,404 --> 00:12:13,164 Speaker 2: It's the worst mistake I ever made was at one 231 00:12:13,204 --> 00:12:17,244 Speaker 2: point eating a Hamburger in a Boston airport because I 232 00:12:17,284 --> 00:12:20,564 Speaker 2: was really really hungry and I was so suck So 233 00:12:20,724 --> 00:12:23,804 Speaker 2: do not do that. 234 00:12:23,524 --> 00:12:25,964 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's my that's funny thing. 235 00:12:26,124 --> 00:12:29,564 Speaker 3: But I think airports is like the best setting for 236 00:12:29,684 --> 00:12:31,964 Speaker 3: like fast food, right, Like I want like a Wendy's 237 00:12:32,604 --> 00:12:35,244 Speaker 3: or some shit, and not some weird off brand Hamburger 238 00:12:35,924 --> 00:12:38,404 Speaker 3: restaurant that probably sucks, right, like the one time when 239 00:12:38,404 --> 00:12:40,804 Speaker 3: you want logistics of like serving people food quickly. I 240 00:12:40,804 --> 00:12:43,204 Speaker 3: mean I agree about like even if you're in business 241 00:12:43,204 --> 00:12:49,004 Speaker 3: class or something, it's just very hard to prepare good 242 00:12:49,764 --> 00:12:52,604 Speaker 3: airline food for like a mass audience unless you get 243 00:12:52,604 --> 00:12:56,244 Speaker 3: to the real high end luxury market Emirates or one 244 00:12:56,244 --> 00:12:59,644 Speaker 3: of the Asian airlines or whatnot. Yeah, people have this 245 00:12:59,724 --> 00:13:04,044 Speaker 3: like sunk cost fallacy of oh, I'm getting this free 246 00:13:04,044 --> 00:13:07,164 Speaker 3: meal because I'm flying business and you actually a lot 247 00:13:07,204 --> 00:13:09,164 Speaker 3: of time you're better off just sleeping or doing what 248 00:13:09,404 --> 00:13:12,924 Speaker 3: I'll be reading, drinking, et cetera, and like, have your 249 00:13:12,924 --> 00:13:16,204 Speaker 3: meal first, you'll have a better meal almost for sure. 250 00:13:16,644 --> 00:13:18,924 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad you agree with me. Yes, it 251 00:13:19,004 --> 00:13:21,524 Speaker 2: is crazy to me that there are so many people 252 00:13:21,564 --> 00:13:25,444 Speaker 2: who fly first class business class, who have the money 253 00:13:25,444 --> 00:13:27,564 Speaker 2: to pay for that ticket, who are like, ooh, free food. 254 00:13:27,884 --> 00:13:29,924 Speaker 1: Right, that doesn't change from college. 255 00:13:30,124 --> 00:13:32,564 Speaker 2: Right, free food. You want to get the free food. 256 00:13:32,724 --> 00:13:34,684 Speaker 2: It's much better for your body. It's much better for you. 257 00:13:34,724 --> 00:13:39,124 Speaker 2: It's much tastier if you don't do that, Nate, when 258 00:13:39,164 --> 00:13:42,244 Speaker 2: you go into a new city, what's the most underrated 259 00:13:42,244 --> 00:13:42,644 Speaker 2: thing to do? 260 00:13:43,924 --> 00:13:46,124 Speaker 3: I mean, I just am a big walker. I walk 261 00:13:46,204 --> 00:13:52,364 Speaker 3: around a lot, right. I hate being confined to a hotel. Yeah, 262 00:13:52,444 --> 00:13:54,204 Speaker 3: you know, I'll look up. I'll look up, do a 263 00:13:54,204 --> 00:13:57,604 Speaker 3: little scouting, do some restaurant. Yeah, work, you know, I'm 264 00:13:57,604 --> 00:14:02,324 Speaker 3: trying to find cuisines, like, for example, the Vietnamese food 265 00:14:02,964 --> 00:14:05,244 Speaker 3: tends to be better on the West Coast and in 266 00:14:05,564 --> 00:14:08,564 Speaker 3: New York and so that's a comparative advantage category for example, 267 00:14:08,924 --> 00:14:14,804 Speaker 3: or you know tacos in La or Texas. So yeah, 268 00:14:15,124 --> 00:14:17,004 Speaker 3: take an uber or something to like a fun neighborhood, 269 00:14:17,044 --> 00:14:18,404 Speaker 3: have some tacos and then walk around. 270 00:14:18,964 --> 00:14:21,764 Speaker 2: I'm totally with you, and I actually love traveling with you, Nate, 271 00:14:21,804 --> 00:14:24,004 Speaker 2: because you and I both love food and you are 272 00:14:24,004 --> 00:14:27,124 Speaker 2: always up for culinary adventures, and that is something that 273 00:14:27,244 --> 00:14:30,604 Speaker 2: I really appreciate. Walking and then and then having some 274 00:14:30,644 --> 00:14:32,444 Speaker 2: good food. Is I think the best thing to do 275 00:14:32,484 --> 00:14:34,844 Speaker 2: in a new city. I don't know how underrated it is, 276 00:14:34,924 --> 00:14:35,924 Speaker 2: but it's wonderful. 277 00:14:37,324 --> 00:14:39,524 Speaker 3: What's the best place to kill time in an airport? 278 00:14:39,564 --> 00:14:42,924 Speaker 3: Is there any scenario, let's say, and let's exclude any 279 00:14:42,964 --> 00:14:47,044 Speaker 3: type of exclusive lounges or anything like that, right, think 280 00:14:47,084 --> 00:14:49,644 Speaker 3: about any airport and now let's say, oh, your flight's 281 00:14:49,644 --> 00:14:51,644 Speaker 3: been delayed for an hour and a half. Is there 282 00:14:51,644 --> 00:14:53,164 Speaker 3: any airport where you're like, Oh, actually, I'm kind of 283 00:14:53,164 --> 00:14:54,604 Speaker 3: happy about that because I get to hang out in 284 00:14:54,684 --> 00:14:55,244 Speaker 3: place X. 285 00:14:56,124 --> 00:15:00,924 Speaker 2: No, I'm never happy about place that is absolutely not happening. 286 00:15:01,364 --> 00:15:03,644 Speaker 2: But if you don't have a good book, I would say, 287 00:15:03,684 --> 00:15:06,084 Speaker 2: go to the bookstore, pick up a good book and 288 00:15:06,404 --> 00:15:09,644 Speaker 2: get lost in it. That's that's the best thing I 289 00:15:09,644 --> 00:15:14,364 Speaker 2: can think of. Otherwise, if you if you're with someone 290 00:15:14,604 --> 00:15:17,244 Speaker 2: and your flight is really delayed, get some alcohol and 291 00:15:17,364 --> 00:15:20,884 Speaker 2: get some get some food, and just pretend you're not 292 00:15:21,004 --> 00:15:25,044 Speaker 2: stuck in the airport, but be careful with that because 293 00:15:25,284 --> 00:15:28,124 Speaker 2: you also don't want to be dehydrated and drunk when 294 00:15:28,124 --> 00:15:31,684 Speaker 2: you get onto the plane. So that's a that's a 295 00:15:31,724 --> 00:15:33,804 Speaker 2: short term solution. No more than one drink. 296 00:15:34,684 --> 00:15:36,444 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't. I don't pledge to bye By that. 297 00:15:37,524 --> 00:15:41,844 Speaker 1: That's fine, that's fine. When you rent a car, do 298 00:15:41,884 --> 00:15:42,644 Speaker 1: you get insurance? 299 00:15:43,564 --> 00:15:47,364 Speaker 3: I don't have a license, Yeah, there you go. 300 00:15:47,844 --> 00:15:50,364 Speaker 2: And I didn't have I didn't know how to drive 301 00:15:50,524 --> 00:15:53,004 Speaker 2: up until a few years ago and I just learned. So, 302 00:15:53,364 --> 00:15:55,924 Speaker 2: but I have heard that rental car insurance is a scam, 303 00:15:56,004 --> 00:15:56,884 Speaker 2: so I never parted it. 304 00:15:57,004 --> 00:16:01,524 Speaker 3: I'm I really think that rental cars are pretty often 305 00:16:01,564 --> 00:16:04,284 Speaker 3: not worth it. I mean, you know, even down into 306 00:16:04,324 --> 00:16:08,564 Speaker 3: like the kind of small to medium size metro areas, 307 00:16:09,844 --> 00:16:11,404 Speaker 3: the uber is pretty good and people have just like 308 00:16:11,444 --> 00:16:14,084 Speaker 3: Fallacy where love you're like, oh, I have to pay 309 00:16:14,124 --> 00:16:17,364 Speaker 3: marginally for these Uber or lyft rides when like Brunnea 310 00:16:17,404 --> 00:16:19,324 Speaker 3: car can be pretty expensive. There is insurance. I've had 311 00:16:19,364 --> 00:16:22,284 Speaker 3: rental cars that I wasn't dragging myself broken into and 312 00:16:22,324 --> 00:16:24,924 Speaker 3: things like that, and like, yeah, yeah, I'm very anti 313 00:16:24,964 --> 00:16:26,924 Speaker 3: rental car and it takes a long time to return 314 00:16:27,044 --> 00:16:29,084 Speaker 3: the car, and like, oh, I mean there's something if 315 00:16:29,124 --> 00:16:30,924 Speaker 3: you're like a national park or something you have to 316 00:16:31,244 --> 00:16:34,524 Speaker 3: but like usually should be avoided. 317 00:16:34,924 --> 00:16:38,244 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you in cities unless you really need it, 318 00:16:38,524 --> 00:16:40,244 Speaker 2: no rental cars, totally agree. 319 00:16:41,684 --> 00:16:44,964 Speaker 3: What is the median amount of airline credit you require 320 00:16:45,044 --> 00:16:46,204 Speaker 3: to be bumped off your flight? 321 00:16:48,244 --> 00:16:50,724 Speaker 1: A million? I would never. 322 00:16:51,164 --> 00:16:54,684 Speaker 2: I mean I book my travel because I need to 323 00:16:54,724 --> 00:16:56,884 Speaker 2: get places and I need to get shit done, and 324 00:16:56,924 --> 00:16:58,804 Speaker 2: you are not getting me off my flight. I'm sorry, 325 00:16:59,564 --> 00:17:03,124 Speaker 2: I'm not getting bumped to the next day. I hate delays. 326 00:17:03,564 --> 00:17:06,164 Speaker 2: I mean, let me rephrase. If there's a flight in 327 00:17:06,204 --> 00:17:10,084 Speaker 2: like twenty minutes, sure you can bump me, but usually 328 00:17:10,084 --> 00:17:12,484 Speaker 2: that's not the case. Right, Whenever they're offering a lot 329 00:17:12,484 --> 00:17:15,204 Speaker 2: of money, that means that you're going to be bumped 330 00:17:15,284 --> 00:17:18,644 Speaker 2: you know, that evening or the next day or something 331 00:17:18,764 --> 00:17:21,044 Speaker 2: horrible like that, And to me, it's just not worth it, Like, 332 00:17:21,084 --> 00:17:23,084 Speaker 2: there's my time is more valuable. 333 00:17:23,964 --> 00:17:25,764 Speaker 3: You don't think people are a little bit irrational about that. 334 00:17:26,924 --> 00:17:29,644 Speaker 2: I think that some people will irrationally accept any amount 335 00:17:29,644 --> 00:17:32,324 Speaker 2: of money because they're like, ooh money, awesome, that's great. 336 00:17:33,164 --> 00:17:35,564 Speaker 2: But when like I said, when I book my travel, 337 00:17:35,604 --> 00:17:39,644 Speaker 2: like I don't like traveling, and like I like being places, 338 00:17:39,684 --> 00:17:42,004 Speaker 2: but I don't like the process of travel, and I 339 00:17:42,124 --> 00:17:46,044 Speaker 2: usually do it with you know, without that much margin 340 00:17:46,084 --> 00:17:50,604 Speaker 2: of error, in the sense that I need to be 341 00:17:50,724 --> 00:17:53,804 Speaker 2: somewhere by a specific time and that's where I'm going, 342 00:17:54,644 --> 00:17:57,084 Speaker 2: And even if it's vacation, like I want to start 343 00:17:57,124 --> 00:17:59,724 Speaker 2: my vacation. I don't want to spend another day in 344 00:17:59,764 --> 00:18:02,724 Speaker 2: whatever city I'm in. If you give me, like there 345 00:18:02,764 --> 00:18:04,604 Speaker 2: is an amount of money, like if you give me 346 00:18:04,684 --> 00:18:06,964 Speaker 2: thousands of dollars, Like if you give me five K, 347 00:18:08,364 --> 00:18:11,324 Speaker 2: I'll probably be okay with being bumped on a flight 348 00:18:11,364 --> 00:18:13,084 Speaker 2: if I'm going on vacation, right, if you give me 349 00:18:13,084 --> 00:18:15,404 Speaker 2: an amount of money that pays for my vacation, like sure, 350 00:18:15,644 --> 00:18:18,404 Speaker 2: and you give it to me in cash, But oftentimes 351 00:18:18,844 --> 00:18:21,684 Speaker 2: that's often not the case. Either it's like travel credit 352 00:18:21,844 --> 00:18:24,804 Speaker 2: or some bullshit where you're not actually getting the money. 353 00:18:24,884 --> 00:18:26,484 Speaker 2: And by the way, no one's paying you five K 354 00:18:27,044 --> 00:18:29,204 Speaker 2: like that that is an outlandish amount. 355 00:18:29,444 --> 00:18:31,684 Speaker 3: Do any airport to have poker rooms? I'm looking this up. 356 00:18:31,804 --> 00:18:35,244 Speaker 2: I guess not right, I have no idea, but that's hilarious. 357 00:18:36,444 --> 00:18:40,484 Speaker 2: While you're looking up poker rooms business class versus first class. 358 00:18:42,764 --> 00:18:43,644 Speaker 3: Versus first class. 359 00:18:43,684 --> 00:18:46,244 Speaker 1: I mean, these days, I think it's basically the same thing. 360 00:18:47,324 --> 00:18:49,324 Speaker 3: There are so many funny distinct I mean, you have 361 00:18:49,364 --> 00:18:52,284 Speaker 3: to know the airline and the route, right, if you 362 00:18:52,324 --> 00:18:55,084 Speaker 3: really care about this stuff, then, like I mean, I like, 363 00:18:55,164 --> 00:18:59,364 Speaker 3: there's only there's only so many things an airline can 364 00:18:59,444 --> 00:19:05,204 Speaker 3: ultimately provide you with, right even until you get to, like, 365 00:19:05,204 --> 00:19:07,284 Speaker 3: like I said, the very top tier first classes. Like 366 00:19:08,444 --> 00:19:10,284 Speaker 3: you know, if you have a bid you can recline. 367 00:19:10,604 --> 00:19:11,884 Speaker 3: I mean, I know, I guess you have like the 368 00:19:11,964 --> 00:19:15,324 Speaker 3: private suites, but you're getting mediocre free food. You're getting 369 00:19:16,284 --> 00:19:18,564 Speaker 3: as much freebooze as you want, but you maybe don't 370 00:19:18,604 --> 00:19:20,844 Speaker 3: want that much, and you're getting a seat that you 371 00:19:20,884 --> 00:19:24,004 Speaker 3: can fully recline in. Then I don't know. Beyond that, 372 00:19:24,444 --> 00:19:27,324 Speaker 3: I tend to think that like there's diminishing returns on 373 00:19:27,364 --> 00:19:28,684 Speaker 3: the amends that you get. 374 00:19:28,924 --> 00:19:30,804 Speaker 1: But yeah, totally agree with you. 375 00:19:30,844 --> 00:19:32,524 Speaker 3: I did, what's take a shower in a plane? I 376 00:19:32,564 --> 00:19:36,964 Speaker 3: got bumped up, bumped up on Emirates flying back from Dangkok, 377 00:19:37,164 --> 00:19:38,004 Speaker 3: and that was pretty cool. 378 00:19:38,484 --> 00:19:40,364 Speaker 1: All right, do you have any more questions for me? 379 00:19:41,644 --> 00:19:43,524 Speaker 3: Worst travel decision you've ever made? 380 00:19:44,684 --> 00:19:47,244 Speaker 2: Worst travel decision I've ever made. I think I kind 381 00:19:47,244 --> 00:19:51,404 Speaker 2: of already answered this, and that was checking bags on 382 00:19:51,444 --> 00:19:55,564 Speaker 2: my way to Georgia. But other than checking bags, I 383 00:19:55,564 --> 00:19:58,444 Speaker 2: think that you have to be really, really careful with 384 00:19:58,484 --> 00:20:02,724 Speaker 2: your layovers, and sometimes you make really shitty decisions without 385 00:20:02,724 --> 00:20:05,444 Speaker 2: realizing it because there's an airport that's known for a delay, 386 00:20:05,764 --> 00:20:08,524 Speaker 2: or the airline will let you book a flight where 387 00:20:08,564 --> 00:20:11,164 Speaker 2: the layovers just way too tight, and if you don't 388 00:20:11,164 --> 00:20:14,364 Speaker 2: know the airport, you're fucked. Like I once had Delta 389 00:20:14,484 --> 00:20:17,164 Speaker 2: allow me to book an international flight and it was 390 00:20:17,324 --> 00:20:20,844 Speaker 2: not direct, it was through Atlanta, and I think my 391 00:20:20,884 --> 00:20:23,684 Speaker 2: connection was thirty minutes long something like that. I have 392 00:20:23,884 --> 00:20:26,684 Speaker 2: no idea why they let me do that. And if 393 00:20:26,764 --> 00:20:30,284 Speaker 2: you've been to the Atlanta airport, like Atlanta has multiple terminals, 394 00:20:30,324 --> 00:20:33,644 Speaker 2: like you have to take a little tram in between them, 395 00:20:34,044 --> 00:20:38,364 Speaker 2: like that, shit ate fast and I missed an international 396 00:20:38,364 --> 00:20:41,604 Speaker 2: connection and I didn't do anything wrong, like Delta let 397 00:20:41,604 --> 00:20:44,844 Speaker 2: me book this, but it was just way not enough time. 398 00:20:45,004 --> 00:20:47,724 Speaker 2: And I think that paying attention to that is actually 399 00:20:47,804 --> 00:20:51,844 Speaker 2: really important, and sometimes you don't because you just assume 400 00:20:51,924 --> 00:20:53,764 Speaker 2: that an airline is not going to let you book 401 00:20:54,004 --> 00:20:56,844 Speaker 2: a connection that's too tight to miss but they just 402 00:20:56,884 --> 00:20:59,124 Speaker 2: assume that it's going to be the best case scenario, right, 403 00:20:59,164 --> 00:21:01,764 Speaker 2: like everything's on time, Like you arrive on time, but 404 00:21:01,804 --> 00:21:04,124 Speaker 2: the moment your flight's twenty minutes late, like you're fucked. 405 00:21:05,124 --> 00:21:06,644 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you have to know the I mean 406 00:21:06,644 --> 00:21:10,124 Speaker 3: because they actually have tables of how long minimum connection 407 00:21:10,164 --> 00:21:12,444 Speaker 3: time is at different airports, and just like like I 408 00:21:12,484 --> 00:21:15,324 Speaker 3: will take a short connection in Detroit because the airport' 409 00:21:15,364 --> 00:21:16,764 Speaker 3: is not that big and to get from went into 410 00:21:16,764 --> 00:21:21,524 Speaker 3: the other little skytrain thing takes ten minutes. Right Atlanta Atlanta, 411 00:21:21,564 --> 00:21:24,564 Speaker 3: you gotta I mean, Atlanta's an overrated airport too. People 412 00:21:24,564 --> 00:21:25,924 Speaker 3: are like, oh Atlanta, I don't know. 413 00:21:26,204 --> 00:21:28,524 Speaker 2: I haven't talked about Atlanta. Yes, Atlanta is very much 414 00:21:28,524 --> 00:21:29,684 Speaker 2: an overfrated airport. 415 00:21:30,684 --> 00:21:32,404 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it has a little bit more capacity 416 00:21:32,444 --> 00:21:38,524 Speaker 3: than Yeah. Look, my worst decision. I'm not gonna blame 417 00:21:38,524 --> 00:21:40,764 Speaker 3: myself for this, but let's say somebody in the traveling 418 00:21:40,804 --> 00:21:45,644 Speaker 3: party made the following calculation. Right, we were flying back 419 00:21:45,644 --> 00:21:52,524 Speaker 3: home from Rio to New York via sal Paolo, and 420 00:21:52,564 --> 00:21:56,084 Speaker 3: the person who made this booking didn't realize that there 421 00:21:56,164 --> 00:21:58,364 Speaker 3: are more than an airport in Salt Paolo. It's one 422 00:21:58,404 --> 00:21:59,964 Speaker 3: of the biggest materias in the world. And so we 423 00:22:00,004 --> 00:22:03,404 Speaker 3: flew into this little commuter domestic airport, and of course 424 00:22:03,404 --> 00:22:05,484 Speaker 3: our flights and the big flew me. I don't know 425 00:22:05,484 --> 00:22:07,764 Speaker 3: what the fuck it's called, the big international airport that's 426 00:22:07,764 --> 00:22:14,084 Speaker 3: about forty five minutes by uh uber or taxi if 427 00:22:14,124 --> 00:22:17,924 Speaker 3: you're taking the right route. So we did't uber. We 428 00:22:17,964 --> 00:22:20,004 Speaker 3: explained to the guy that we're kind of in a hurry, 429 00:22:20,084 --> 00:22:22,764 Speaker 3: and then lo and behold, we're kind of out on 430 00:22:22,804 --> 00:22:29,044 Speaker 3: this like country road and we were getting further and 431 00:22:29,084 --> 00:22:33,324 Speaker 3: further away from the airport, and I guess ostensibly he 432 00:22:33,444 --> 00:22:36,764 Speaker 3: was taking some very circuitous route that was going to 433 00:22:36,804 --> 00:22:38,524 Speaker 3: take an hour and a half, which wasn't gonna work. 434 00:22:38,524 --> 00:22:40,444 Speaker 3: And so, you know, we don't speak English. We're in 435 00:22:40,524 --> 00:22:43,444 Speaker 3: we don't speak Spanish. Excuse me, we're thinking Portuguese. I 436 00:22:43,524 --> 00:22:47,484 Speaker 3: do speak a tiny bit of Spanish, but not Portuguese 437 00:22:47,524 --> 00:22:49,324 Speaker 3: at all. And you know, we kind of think we 438 00:22:49,404 --> 00:22:52,964 Speaker 3: might be getting like kidnapped, and I'm not quite sure what, 439 00:22:53,284 --> 00:22:56,524 Speaker 3: and so we start like getting hysterical at the guy 440 00:22:56,644 --> 00:22:59,044 Speaker 3: and then and then eventually he kind of is like, Okay, 441 00:22:59,044 --> 00:23:02,484 Speaker 3: these guys are gonna fucking I don't know what, but 442 00:23:02,564 --> 00:23:04,684 Speaker 3: he felt like he had to stop this premise of 443 00:23:04,724 --> 00:23:07,044 Speaker 3: like taking us in this very long route at best 444 00:23:07,084 --> 00:23:10,404 Speaker 3: being kidnapped at worse. And then I don't know what 445 00:23:10,444 --> 00:23:11,724 Speaker 3: was wrong with the guy, right, and then we're trying 446 00:23:11,724 --> 00:23:13,604 Speaker 3: to tell him which gate to go to or which terminal, 447 00:23:13,604 --> 00:23:15,164 Speaker 3: and he like wouldn't listen to us, and so like 448 00:23:15,724 --> 00:23:17,604 Speaker 3: we're just so fluster when we finally to the airport 449 00:23:17,644 --> 00:23:20,364 Speaker 3: that like, I leave my passport had fallen out of 450 00:23:20,364 --> 00:23:24,644 Speaker 3: my wallet, and U in this guy's fucking uber right, 451 00:23:24,804 --> 00:23:29,564 Speaker 3: and he comes rushing in and actually gives us the 452 00:23:29,604 --> 00:23:33,044 Speaker 3: passport right, So it seemed to travel nightmare. 453 00:23:33,884 --> 00:23:34,164 Speaker 1: Wow. 454 00:23:34,164 --> 00:23:36,084 Speaker 3: So I wasn't sure what's star rating? So you try 455 00:23:36,124 --> 00:23:39,484 Speaker 3: to kidnap us, but do so on. 456 00:23:39,444 --> 00:23:41,444 Speaker 2: The one hand, he tried to kidnap us, but on 457 00:23:41,484 --> 00:23:44,244 Speaker 2: the other hand, he gave us back our past, So 458 00:23:44,284 --> 00:23:44,684 Speaker 2: I gave. 459 00:23:44,564 --> 00:23:47,884 Speaker 3: Him three stars. Okay, that averages out. 460 00:23:50,964 --> 00:23:54,044 Speaker 1: That is a that is a horror story. Oh my god. Yeah, 461 00:23:54,084 --> 00:23:54,524 Speaker 1: I'm uh. 462 00:23:55,444 --> 00:23:59,284 Speaker 2: I get very nervous, especially by myself when when things 463 00:23:59,324 --> 00:24:01,164 Speaker 2: like that start happening. I love that you can share 464 00:24:01,204 --> 00:24:04,244 Speaker 2: your location these days, and I highly recommend it, whether 465 00:24:04,284 --> 00:24:07,804 Speaker 2: you're male or female. You know, if if something's going wrong, 466 00:24:07,924 --> 00:24:10,244 Speaker 2: Just share your location and to make sure that the 467 00:24:10,364 --> 00:24:15,964 Speaker 2: driver knows it, and use Google Translate Nate for Portuguese to. 468 00:24:15,484 --> 00:24:18,524 Speaker 1: Tell them how to say it. Say, you know, my. 469 00:24:20,044 --> 00:24:23,964 Speaker 2: Big bodyguard friend knows exactly where I am at this moment, 470 00:24:25,084 --> 00:24:25,684 Speaker 2: but I've got. 471 00:24:25,564 --> 00:24:26,204 Speaker 1: It all worked out. 472 00:24:26,484 --> 00:24:29,644 Speaker 2: And on that note, we hope you've enjoyed our gto guide. 473 00:24:29,684 --> 00:24:40,484 Speaker 2: And let's take a break and talk about some cheating. So, Nate, 474 00:24:40,524 --> 00:24:44,844 Speaker 2: have you been following this story about academic cheating that 475 00:24:45,044 --> 00:24:49,204 Speaker 2: first broke in the public sphere last year twenty twenty three, 476 00:24:49,764 --> 00:24:54,284 Speaker 2: about Francesca Gino and Dan Arielli Harvard Business School and 477 00:24:54,524 --> 00:24:59,284 Speaker 2: Duke Business School and how there are potentially fabricated and 478 00:24:59,324 --> 00:25:02,604 Speaker 2: manipulated results in some of their work on dishonesty. 479 00:25:04,124 --> 00:25:08,724 Speaker 3: Yeah, as a I don't know, as someone who likes 480 00:25:08,724 --> 00:25:10,724 Speaker 3: to tweak the S class when it flexs things up, 481 00:25:10,724 --> 00:25:12,524 Speaker 3: I've been following this, but probably not as closely as 482 00:25:12,844 --> 00:25:13,324 Speaker 3: as you have. 483 00:25:14,764 --> 00:25:18,804 Speaker 2: This came out because a team of researchers that call 484 00:25:18,844 --> 00:25:23,164 Speaker 2: themselves Data Colata were able to do some statistical analysis 485 00:25:23,404 --> 00:25:28,564 Speaker 2: very in depth. These are brilliant guys, and they were 486 00:25:28,604 --> 00:25:31,804 Speaker 2: able to kind of publish this series of reports that 487 00:25:31,844 --> 00:25:38,124 Speaker 2: showed uh, oh, this work on being unethical is actually 488 00:25:38,204 --> 00:25:41,244 Speaker 2: unethical in and of itself, and this prompted, you know, 489 00:25:41,364 --> 00:25:45,564 Speaker 2: big reckoning. Francesca Gino was placed on leave and she 490 00:25:45,804 --> 00:25:49,804 Speaker 2: ended up suing both Harvard and Data Colada. Her lawsuit 491 00:25:49,804 --> 00:25:55,564 Speaker 2: against Data Colada has since been dismissed, but Danareeli, as 492 00:25:55,604 --> 00:25:58,924 Speaker 2: far as I know, is still on faculty at Duke. 493 00:25:59,044 --> 00:26:00,644 Speaker 2: And by the way, this is not the first time 494 00:26:00,644 --> 00:26:03,684 Speaker 2: he has been accused. There have been multiple accusations of 495 00:26:04,524 --> 00:26:09,604 Speaker 2: improper research in the past. There has been a crisis 496 00:26:09,724 --> 00:26:14,084 Speaker 2: of confidence in social psychology for a long time, and 497 00:26:14,364 --> 00:26:18,364 Speaker 2: because of replication issues, not because of fraud and misconduct. 498 00:26:18,364 --> 00:26:22,524 Speaker 2: But now you know, we're adding academic misconduct. And there 499 00:26:22,604 --> 00:26:25,644 Speaker 2: was a recent piece that just came out last week, 500 00:26:26,324 --> 00:26:31,164 Speaker 2: it's going to be in the next print issue of 501 00:26:31,204 --> 00:26:37,004 Speaker 2: The Atlantic by Daniel Enber who actually showed that it 502 00:26:37,164 --> 00:26:41,484 Speaker 2: turns out that multiple people may have been fabricating data 503 00:26:41,884 --> 00:26:46,124 Speaker 2: and that this is an endemic problem, especially among business 504 00:26:46,124 --> 00:26:50,044 Speaker 2: school researchers. So what do we think about this date 505 00:26:50,684 --> 00:26:53,884 Speaker 2: Other than the obvious irony that like, holy shit, you know, 506 00:26:54,364 --> 00:26:57,604 Speaker 2: people who are researching ethics are not ethical. 507 00:26:57,964 --> 00:26:59,964 Speaker 3: There is some irony in comparing it to like the 508 00:26:59,964 --> 00:27:02,164 Speaker 3: poker community, which is also a place that seems to 509 00:27:02,204 --> 00:27:06,044 Speaker 3: like be quite tolerant of cheating. Yeah. Look, I have 510 00:27:06,244 --> 00:27:08,284 Speaker 3: various critiques. I mean, number one, I think the modal 511 00:27:08,324 --> 00:27:14,444 Speaker 3: academic paper is agreed because it's hard to have original 512 00:27:14,524 --> 00:27:16,804 Speaker 3: findings in a competitive field. There's a lot of pressure 513 00:27:16,804 --> 00:27:19,724 Speaker 3: to published, and so like the motive paper is a 514 00:27:19,764 --> 00:27:24,084 Speaker 3: paper that applies some and siscal inference is hard and 515 00:27:24,124 --> 00:27:26,204 Speaker 3: people don't they have formal training in it, but like 516 00:27:26,244 --> 00:27:31,204 Speaker 3: having intuition is harder, right, And so the motolctemic paper 517 00:27:31,324 --> 00:27:36,884 Speaker 3: is either coming to some counterintuitive conclusion that seems needed, 518 00:27:36,924 --> 00:27:39,124 Speaker 3: but it's actually just an artifact of the research design, 519 00:27:39,764 --> 00:27:43,044 Speaker 3: or a politically correct conclusion because those papers tend to 520 00:27:43,084 --> 00:27:48,084 Speaker 3: get greenlit more right, you know, the fact that there 521 00:27:48,164 --> 00:27:50,524 Speaker 3: is I don't know, is there a fine line between 522 00:27:51,524 --> 00:27:54,804 Speaker 3: cheating and just shitty methodology. I think there is, probably, 523 00:27:56,844 --> 00:27:58,924 Speaker 3: But I think the peer review system is pretty broken. 524 00:27:58,964 --> 00:28:02,724 Speaker 3: And we both know about the replication crisis, whereby various definitions, 525 00:28:02,724 --> 00:28:05,884 Speaker 3: when you try to recreate independently is a positive study 526 00:28:05,924 --> 00:28:08,444 Speaker 3: result than those recreation rates are are low. 527 00:28:09,484 --> 00:28:12,244 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that you're raising a really really important 528 00:28:12,244 --> 00:28:14,004 Speaker 2: point though, that I want to just go back to 529 00:28:14,084 --> 00:28:16,764 Speaker 2: a little bit before we dive further into kind of 530 00:28:16,804 --> 00:28:20,244 Speaker 2: this actual fraud and misconduct, which is this lack of 531 00:28:20,284 --> 00:28:24,284 Speaker 2: statistical knowledge sometimes. So I have a pH d in psychology, right, 532 00:28:24,484 --> 00:28:27,884 Speaker 2: So I actually I went through this academic training. I 533 00:28:27,924 --> 00:28:30,844 Speaker 2: had to take some stats classes, but it's not like 534 00:28:30,924 --> 00:28:35,444 Speaker 2: I had to take advanced statistics right like I, you know, 535 00:28:35,484 --> 00:28:37,844 Speaker 2: and I knew how little of a sense I had 536 00:28:37,844 --> 00:28:40,164 Speaker 2: for a lot of these things. So when it actually 537 00:28:40,244 --> 00:28:44,364 Speaker 2: came time to analyze my final data set, which was 538 00:28:44,444 --> 00:28:48,044 Speaker 2: you know, thousands and thousands of participants, I wanted to 539 00:28:48,044 --> 00:28:51,204 Speaker 2: make sure that I avoided any potential pitfall. So I 540 00:28:51,244 --> 00:28:53,724 Speaker 2: did some analysis myself that I could do, right, you know, 541 00:28:53,804 --> 00:28:57,564 Speaker 2: some more basic tests, but I knew what I knew 542 00:28:57,604 --> 00:29:00,964 Speaker 2: what conclusion. You know, I knew what my research premise was, 543 00:29:01,724 --> 00:29:03,524 Speaker 2: and so that can buy us you in different ways. 544 00:29:03,644 --> 00:29:05,684 Speaker 2: So what I then did was I hired a statistician 545 00:29:05,724 --> 00:29:07,644 Speaker 2: who had no idea what I was researching, who was 546 00:29:07,644 --> 00:29:10,004 Speaker 2: not a psychologist. I just gave them all the data 547 00:29:10,324 --> 00:29:12,564 Speaker 2: and said, this is what I need you to do, right, 548 00:29:12,644 --> 00:29:15,204 Speaker 2: build build me models, run these analyzes, and tell me 549 00:29:15,244 --> 00:29:18,044 Speaker 2: what you find. And that's actually how I ended up 550 00:29:18,204 --> 00:29:20,204 Speaker 2: taking care of that problem. I was like, if he finds, 551 00:29:21,044 --> 00:29:23,924 Speaker 2: if he finds things that actually are done in a 552 00:29:24,124 --> 00:29:27,844 Speaker 2: much more complicated way, then I'm doing great. Because one 553 00:29:27,884 --> 00:29:29,764 Speaker 2: of the things that has actually been a huge problem 554 00:29:29,804 --> 00:29:32,084 Speaker 2: in academia for a very long time, hence part of 555 00:29:32,124 --> 00:29:36,764 Speaker 2: the replication crisis, is a concept known as P hacking 556 00:29:37,284 --> 00:29:40,684 Speaker 2: and P hacking. So the P value is your significance 557 00:29:40,764 --> 00:29:44,644 Speaker 2: value on a paper, right, and it's somewhat arbitrarily. Point 558 00:29:44,724 --> 00:29:48,684 Speaker 2: oh five is kind of your threshold, right, So if 559 00:29:48,724 --> 00:29:51,444 Speaker 2: you're below point oh five, the finding significant. If you're not, 560 00:29:51,564 --> 00:29:53,764 Speaker 2: the finding's not significant. So it can be like marginally 561 00:29:53,804 --> 00:29:56,644 Speaker 2: significant if you have like a point zero six. Anyway, 562 00:29:57,044 --> 00:30:00,204 Speaker 2: it is a little bit arbitrarian and funny, but people 563 00:30:00,964 --> 00:30:03,124 Speaker 2: would do something known as P hacking, which is you 564 00:30:03,204 --> 00:30:06,324 Speaker 2: run your analysis, right, you have some sort of hypothesis, 565 00:30:06,404 --> 00:30:08,804 Speaker 2: You gather your data, and you find that your P 566 00:30:08,964 --> 00:30:12,124 Speaker 2: value is now significant, and you're like, hmm, what if 567 00:30:12,164 --> 00:30:16,484 Speaker 2: I excluded this set of participants, or what if I 568 00:30:16,564 --> 00:30:20,084 Speaker 2: excluded this set of data. What if I excluded you know, 569 00:30:20,124 --> 00:30:23,724 Speaker 2: based on education, or excluded all men, or excluded you know, blah, 570 00:30:23,764 --> 00:30:26,324 Speaker 2: blah blah. Usually it's not excluding all men. But they 571 00:30:26,644 --> 00:30:30,044 Speaker 2: end up trying to manipulate the statistics a little bit 572 00:30:30,284 --> 00:30:31,684 Speaker 2: by saying, oh, well, is. 573 00:30:31,684 --> 00:30:33,684 Speaker 1: It going to be significant? Now? What about now? What 574 00:30:33,764 --> 00:30:34,244 Speaker 1: about now? 575 00:30:34,444 --> 00:30:37,044 Speaker 2: Until they find a result that is significant and that's 576 00:30:37,084 --> 00:30:40,124 Speaker 2: what they publish. But they didn't have any a priori 577 00:30:40,244 --> 00:30:43,844 Speaker 2: hypotheses about why you're going to do that to the data. 578 00:30:43,924 --> 00:30:45,804 Speaker 2: So I had a lot of times when I was 579 00:30:45,844 --> 00:30:47,844 Speaker 2: excluding certain things from the data, but I would say 580 00:30:47,844 --> 00:30:50,804 Speaker 2: ahead of time, right, like, I'm going to be excluding X, 581 00:30:50,924 --> 00:30:53,684 Speaker 2: Y and Z for these reasons, right because I actually 582 00:30:53,724 --> 00:30:57,084 Speaker 2: have a hypothesis that this is going to matter, and 583 00:30:57,324 --> 00:30:59,564 Speaker 2: that's not you know, that's not what I'm looking at. 584 00:30:59,604 --> 00:31:01,724 Speaker 2: So if you fall into these categories, I'm just not 585 00:31:01,764 --> 00:31:05,764 Speaker 2: going to use your data. People have tried to Now 586 00:31:05,804 --> 00:31:07,964 Speaker 2: that people are aware that this is a problem, they 587 00:31:08,004 --> 00:31:11,324 Speaker 2: are trying to kind of remedy it by saying, Okay, 588 00:31:11,364 --> 00:31:15,284 Speaker 2: let's pre register all studies, let's preregister your conclusions, pre 589 00:31:15,284 --> 00:31:18,844 Speaker 2: register all of your analyzes to try to avoid P hacking. 590 00:31:19,084 --> 00:31:21,684 Speaker 2: But you raise a really interesting point. When P hacking 591 00:31:21,764 --> 00:31:25,164 Speaker 2: was prevalent, I had someone at Columbia in the Columbia 592 00:31:25,204 --> 00:31:30,204 Speaker 2: psychology department, not my advisor, who was Walter Michelle, who's amazing. 593 00:31:30,204 --> 00:31:32,404 Speaker 2: But I had someone when I had an analysis that 594 00:31:32,404 --> 00:31:34,804 Speaker 2: didn't quite work, be like, have you tried running it 595 00:31:34,884 --> 00:31:36,884 Speaker 2: without X or have you tried doing it in this 596 00:31:36,964 --> 00:31:40,324 Speaker 2: type of analysis instead? And I was like no, and 597 00:31:40,364 --> 00:31:43,964 Speaker 2: I'm not going to But that is a frequent response. 598 00:31:44,284 --> 00:31:47,244 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you have to be really I mean 599 00:31:47,284 --> 00:31:50,324 Speaker 3: this also applies to journalism when you're writing about things 600 00:31:50,364 --> 00:31:53,524 Speaker 3: that have some amount of complexity, right, is it's kind 601 00:31:53,524 --> 00:31:55,044 Speaker 3: of just on you. I mean, it's very hard to 602 00:31:55,124 --> 00:32:02,684 Speaker 3: detect a story that like omits certain relevant qualifying facts 603 00:32:02,964 --> 00:32:07,844 Speaker 3: or arranges the chairs in a way that tells a 604 00:32:07,844 --> 00:32:09,804 Speaker 3: certain narrative, and you have to kind to be just 605 00:32:09,844 --> 00:32:12,924 Speaker 3: a real stickler for accuracy, right, And you also have 606 00:32:12,964 --> 00:32:14,004 Speaker 3: to know that like when you I mean I have 607 00:32:14,084 --> 00:32:15,924 Speaker 3: lots of I use for like newsletter post right, and 608 00:32:15,964 --> 00:32:19,084 Speaker 3: then you have something that seems promising and then maybe 609 00:32:19,124 --> 00:32:20,964 Speaker 3: you look at in a second way and then you're like, 610 00:32:20,964 --> 00:32:23,804 Speaker 3: this seems like there's not much there, and then you 611 00:32:23,884 --> 00:32:25,684 Speaker 3: probably just have to shelve that post right or every 612 00:32:25,684 --> 00:32:28,004 Speaker 3: now and then you can find some way to salvage 613 00:32:28,044 --> 00:32:31,724 Speaker 3: it for something. But like, yeah, I think some people 614 00:32:31,764 --> 00:32:33,404 Speaker 3: don't know it's bad, right, They think, oh, I'm doing 615 00:32:33,484 --> 00:32:36,764 Speaker 3: science by like trying new regression formula until I find 616 00:32:36,764 --> 00:32:39,564 Speaker 3: one that has a high R squared and like yeah, 617 00:32:40,124 --> 00:32:42,124 Speaker 3: and that's not good. And then there's also pressure to like, 618 00:32:42,764 --> 00:32:44,644 Speaker 3: you know, if you look at like what the p 619 00:32:44,844 --> 00:32:46,764 Speaker 3: values are in published paper, there's a big spike it 620 00:32:46,884 --> 00:32:50,364 Speaker 3: exactly point oh five because point oh five is deemed 621 00:32:50,404 --> 00:32:52,204 Speaker 3: is good and point oh six is deemed is bad. 622 00:32:53,764 --> 00:32:55,724 Speaker 3: And we'll be right back after this break. 623 00:33:06,084 --> 00:33:08,044 Speaker 2: I think that there are a lot of people who 624 00:33:08,084 --> 00:33:11,564 Speaker 2: aren't like as you, who aren't fabricating data right, who 625 00:33:11,644 --> 00:33:15,644 Speaker 2: aren't actually manipulating data manipulating data sets, but who are 626 00:33:15,964 --> 00:33:20,484 Speaker 2: doing these like more subtle things that seem okay and 627 00:33:20,724 --> 00:33:23,444 Speaker 2: you know see, seem like they'll get your get your 628 00:33:23,444 --> 00:33:27,124 Speaker 2: research over the line, which actually dovetails really nicely. Which 629 00:33:27,284 --> 00:33:29,764 Speaker 2: with one of the other reasons why I think we're 630 00:33:29,804 --> 00:33:33,284 Speaker 2: getting these sources of scandals, these sources of crises, you know, 631 00:33:33,404 --> 00:33:38,484 Speaker 2: replication crisis before and now this just realization that a 632 00:33:38,524 --> 00:33:41,964 Speaker 2: lot of studies that are published by researchers, especially in 633 00:33:42,004 --> 00:33:46,404 Speaker 2: business schools, where peer review is even more broken than 634 00:33:46,444 --> 00:33:48,844 Speaker 2: it is in other places. I think one of the 635 00:33:48,884 --> 00:33:54,404 Speaker 2: reasons is the misaligned incentives. Right, the incentives for tenure, 636 00:33:54,564 --> 00:33:59,044 Speaker 2: the incentives for promotion are quantity over quality a lot 637 00:33:59,084 --> 00:34:03,004 Speaker 2: of the times, right they the publish or parish mantra 638 00:34:03,764 --> 00:34:07,124 Speaker 2: is not bullshit. And I was very lucky when I 639 00:34:07,164 --> 00:34:09,284 Speaker 2: was in when I was in grad school that I 640 00:34:09,564 --> 00:34:12,044 Speaker 2: knew I had zero desire to go into academia, So 641 00:34:12,124 --> 00:34:15,164 Speaker 2: my incentives were pure, right Like, I just wanted to 642 00:34:15,164 --> 00:34:17,444 Speaker 2: do the research because I was really interested in it, 643 00:34:17,804 --> 00:34:19,604 Speaker 2: and I knew that I was never going to be 644 00:34:19,684 --> 00:34:21,564 Speaker 2: on the academic job market, so I didn't care if 645 00:34:21,564 --> 00:34:24,724 Speaker 2: it was publishable, right Like, I didn't actually care what 646 00:34:24,764 --> 00:34:27,644 Speaker 2: the significance was. I didn't care what would end up happening. 647 00:34:27,804 --> 00:34:30,884 Speaker 2: I got very lucky that I had cool, significant findings, 648 00:34:31,044 --> 00:34:33,044 Speaker 2: but I never ended up publishing them. But there are 649 00:34:33,084 --> 00:34:35,724 Speaker 2: so many people for whom the incentives are right from 650 00:34:35,764 --> 00:34:38,804 Speaker 2: the very very beginning, you have to publish, published, publish 651 00:34:39,044 --> 00:34:41,044 Speaker 2: in order to get that first appointment, in order to 652 00:34:41,084 --> 00:34:45,324 Speaker 2: get a promotion, in order to get tenure, and quantity 653 00:34:45,564 --> 00:34:49,364 Speaker 2: is rewarded. I remember having a conversation with my advisor, 654 00:34:49,404 --> 00:34:53,724 Speaker 2: Walter Michelle, who for people who don't know, was kind 655 00:34:53,724 --> 00:34:57,124 Speaker 2: of one of the most prominent social psychologists of the 656 00:34:57,164 --> 00:35:01,204 Speaker 2: twentieth century who did kind of the Marshmallow studies, but 657 00:35:01,244 --> 00:35:04,164 Speaker 2: he did a lot of other work as well, and 658 00:35:04,324 --> 00:35:09,564 Speaker 2: incredibly an incredibly prominent researcher who has since passed away. 659 00:35:09,964 --> 00:35:14,364 Speaker 2: And I remember having this conversation with him about academia, 660 00:35:14,524 --> 00:35:17,044 Speaker 2: and he said, and I think that this was very true, 661 00:35:17,044 --> 00:35:20,204 Speaker 2: that he never would have gotten his first job, he 662 00:35:20,284 --> 00:35:22,244 Speaker 2: never would have gotten tenure, he never would have had 663 00:35:22,244 --> 00:35:25,004 Speaker 2: his career progression in the modern market because when he 664 00:35:25,124 --> 00:35:28,284 Speaker 2: was hired for the first time, he had two publications 665 00:35:28,324 --> 00:35:31,964 Speaker 2: and they happened to be incredibly important publications with very 666 00:35:32,004 --> 00:35:34,364 Speaker 2: deep theory, and so back in that schools were like, oh, 667 00:35:34,364 --> 00:35:36,724 Speaker 2: this is really really interesting. But he said that he 668 00:35:36,724 --> 00:35:40,284 Speaker 2: wouldn't go into academia these days because you can't do 669 00:35:40,404 --> 00:35:44,044 Speaker 2: theory work right. You can't do research that's longitudinal, that 670 00:35:44,124 --> 00:35:46,884 Speaker 2: takes years and years and years. And so I feel 671 00:35:46,924 --> 00:35:49,244 Speaker 2: like the field of psychology, and not just psychology, I 672 00:35:49,244 --> 00:35:52,204 Speaker 2: think this is true in academic work in general has 673 00:35:52,244 --> 00:35:56,124 Speaker 2: become diminished because you can't do important studies right. You 674 00:35:56,164 --> 00:35:58,804 Speaker 2: can't do a lot of this important work anymore because 675 00:35:58,804 --> 00:36:01,124 Speaker 2: it's not going to produce results for years, and some 676 00:36:01,244 --> 00:36:03,764 Speaker 2: of it is kind of very theoretical when you're trying 677 00:36:03,804 --> 00:36:07,244 Speaker 2: to develop these big ideas and big theories, and instead, 678 00:36:07,564 --> 00:36:11,764 Speaker 2: you know, you are incentivized to focus on one specific 679 00:36:11,844 --> 00:36:15,164 Speaker 2: type of neuron that does one very specific thing in 680 00:36:15,204 --> 00:36:17,404 Speaker 2: the brain and we you know, and we're just going 681 00:36:17,444 --> 00:36:20,084 Speaker 2: to publish a lot about that. And I think that 682 00:36:20,124 --> 00:36:23,724 Speaker 2: those are very misaligned incentives if you want good research, 683 00:36:23,844 --> 00:36:27,484 Speaker 2: if you want ethical research, and if you want research 684 00:36:27,524 --> 00:36:31,404 Speaker 2: that's actually going to be meaningful and make a difference 685 00:36:31,444 --> 00:36:32,324 Speaker 2: in the world. 686 00:36:33,524 --> 00:36:38,004 Speaker 3: There's another irony too, which is that because academic prose 687 00:36:38,204 --> 00:36:42,764 Speaker 3: kind of is willfully obfuscatory, is aditive, it off skates 688 00:36:43,044 --> 00:36:45,724 Speaker 3: and it's just never said that. 689 00:36:45,644 --> 00:36:47,884 Speaker 1: Word out loud night, but it's that's the right word. 690 00:36:48,204 --> 00:36:52,764 Speaker 3: Yeah. It's harder to detect flaws because the writing is 691 00:36:52,804 --> 00:36:58,924 Speaker 3: so bad that often it conceals really sloppy thinking, and 692 00:36:59,004 --> 00:36:59,924 Speaker 3: the opposite. 693 00:36:59,604 --> 00:37:00,124 Speaker 1: Can be true. 694 00:37:00,404 --> 00:37:03,324 Speaker 2: So people like Dan Arieli are really good writers, and 695 00:37:03,404 --> 00:37:07,044 Speaker 2: so you actually miss the logical leaps that they're taking 696 00:37:07,524 --> 00:37:10,444 Speaker 2: where wait a doesn't actually lead to be But because 697 00:37:10,484 --> 00:37:12,244 Speaker 2: you're such a good writer and you made it sound 698 00:37:12,284 --> 00:37:15,764 Speaker 2: so nice. I thought that it led to be please continue. 699 00:37:16,204 --> 00:37:17,524 Speaker 3: Yeah, Now, I guess it's kind of like a U 700 00:37:17,604 --> 00:37:21,444 Speaker 3: shaped curve where like mediocre to good writing, it's easier 701 00:37:21,444 --> 00:37:23,804 Speaker 3: to detect problems, and like very persuasive writing which is 702 00:37:23,804 --> 00:37:26,564 Speaker 3: aiming to persuade you, or very unclear writing, which is 703 00:37:26,764 --> 00:37:30,324 Speaker 3: you know, again, I unless you are writing in a 704 00:37:30,524 --> 00:37:33,644 Speaker 3: non native language, then in general we're not doing part 705 00:37:33,644 --> 00:37:35,964 Speaker 3: of particle physics here, right. In general, for a type 706 00:37:35,964 --> 00:37:38,004 Speaker 3: of B school study, if you can't explain it, well, 707 00:37:38,044 --> 00:37:39,284 Speaker 3: you probably don't know what you're talking about. 708 00:37:39,804 --> 00:37:42,124 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think that's very true. And I 709 00:37:42,124 --> 00:37:44,284 Speaker 2: think the other one of the other problems that we 710 00:37:44,324 --> 00:37:48,284 Speaker 2: see is that you also have an incentive to kind 711 00:37:48,284 --> 00:37:51,324 Speaker 2: of have your work, especially for business school, have your 712 00:37:51,324 --> 00:37:53,484 Speaker 2: work be out there, right, and have journalists write about that. 713 00:37:53,684 --> 00:37:57,164 Speaker 2: Journalists often don't have statistical training, right, then they don't 714 00:37:57,164 --> 00:37:59,764 Speaker 2: actually when they're looking at a paper. There are some 715 00:37:59,844 --> 00:38:03,124 Speaker 2: journalists who do absolutely who are very rigorous about this, 716 00:38:03,364 --> 00:38:05,444 Speaker 2: but most journalists, like they you know, they look at 717 00:38:05,484 --> 00:38:08,564 Speaker 2: the abstract, right, they look at a few things, but 718 00:38:08,604 --> 00:38:11,084 Speaker 2: it's not like they have the resources to be able 719 00:38:11,084 --> 00:38:14,084 Speaker 2: to tell is this a solid study or not? And 720 00:38:14,164 --> 00:38:18,044 Speaker 2: so they might report it the way that more misaligned incentives, 721 00:38:18,044 --> 00:38:20,844 Speaker 2: the way that the press release puts it right, the 722 00:38:20,844 --> 00:38:25,044 Speaker 2: way that the PR Department actually puts it the. 723 00:38:25,004 --> 00:38:28,324 Speaker 3: Way that And that's a problem even more so in 724 00:38:28,364 --> 00:38:32,524 Speaker 3: this era where you know, journalists are concerned or liberal 725 00:38:32,604 --> 00:38:35,204 Speaker 3: journists are concerned that, oh, science is under attack from Trump. 726 00:38:35,284 --> 00:38:40,484 Speaker 3: Then like there is some degree of expertise laundering that 727 00:38:40,524 --> 00:38:43,684 Speaker 3: you go shopping for an academic study that tells you 728 00:38:43,724 --> 00:38:46,124 Speaker 3: the thing that you want to hear, and then you 729 00:38:46,204 --> 00:38:49,644 Speaker 3: get quotes from the same group of four people. A 730 00:38:49,644 --> 00:38:50,964 Speaker 3: lot of problems, Maria. 731 00:38:51,444 --> 00:38:54,364 Speaker 2: There are a lot of problems, And I think this 732 00:38:54,404 --> 00:38:56,764 Speaker 2: is a topic that we'll be returning to. It's something 733 00:38:56,804 --> 00:38:59,204 Speaker 2: that I'm writing about in my next book, which is 734 00:38:59,244 --> 00:39:03,004 Speaker 2: about cheating, and I think that is just something that 735 00:39:03,044 --> 00:39:05,644 Speaker 2: everyone needs to be aware of. And one other thing, 736 00:39:05,724 --> 00:39:08,324 Speaker 2: you know, once this is something that I actually wrote 737 00:39:08,324 --> 00:39:12,484 Speaker 2: on my substack last week. You know, once misinformation, once 738 00:39:12,564 --> 00:39:16,324 Speaker 2: kind of incorrect results get out there, it's really difficult. 739 00:39:16,524 --> 00:39:19,204 Speaker 2: You can't just take it back because the way that 740 00:39:19,284 --> 00:39:21,924 Speaker 2: our brains work, they don't work that way, right, Like 741 00:39:21,964 --> 00:39:24,564 Speaker 2: you just misremember it, not on purpose, but like there's 742 00:39:24,604 --> 00:39:27,004 Speaker 2: so much stuff that I remember from you know, my 743 00:39:27,004 --> 00:39:29,244 Speaker 2: grad school days, where I'm like, oh, right, like if 744 00:39:29,244 --> 00:39:31,844 Speaker 2: you do X, then Y happens, and like that shit's 745 00:39:31,844 --> 00:39:35,524 Speaker 2: been retracted. But I don't necessarily either I wasn't aware 746 00:39:35,564 --> 00:39:38,404 Speaker 2: of it or I didn't you know, didn't really register. 747 00:39:38,564 --> 00:39:41,604 Speaker 2: But it still informs my thinking. Right, So even if 748 00:39:41,644 --> 00:39:46,044 Speaker 2: you know about it, it is incredibly difficult to undo those effects. 749 00:39:46,364 --> 00:39:48,764 Speaker 2: So if you're you know, I think if you're a journalist, 750 00:39:48,804 --> 00:39:51,804 Speaker 2: you have to be try to be vigilant. You're gonna 751 00:39:51,804 --> 00:39:54,164 Speaker 2: make mistakes, like you know, I've made mistakes. Just make 752 00:39:54,204 --> 00:39:57,564 Speaker 2: sure that you correct yourself and try to just try 753 00:39:57,564 --> 00:40:00,324 Speaker 2: to hold yourself to a high standard. But if you're 754 00:40:00,364 --> 00:40:02,564 Speaker 2: an academic researcher, you have to do that as well, 755 00:40:02,924 --> 00:40:06,404 Speaker 2: and the incentives aren't there, And when the incentives aren't there, 756 00:40:06,524 --> 00:40:07,084 Speaker 2: I think the. 757 00:40:07,004 --> 00:40:10,804 Speaker 3: Behavior doesn't really change. Yeah, people very efficient, even if 758 00:40:11,804 --> 00:40:14,444 Speaker 3: even if a lot of people are truth seeking, and 759 00:40:14,484 --> 00:40:19,804 Speaker 3: academia has that capacity more than some. Right, we know 760 00:40:19,964 --> 00:40:22,684 Speaker 3: from studying games that like, if there's a way to 761 00:40:22,724 --> 00:40:26,844 Speaker 3: exploit something and it's a profitable exploit, then some unscrupulous 762 00:40:26,884 --> 00:40:29,284 Speaker 3: person is going to take advantage of it. 763 00:40:29,324 --> 00:40:33,804 Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, absolutely, and if the incentives are so out 764 00:40:33,844 --> 00:40:36,404 Speaker 2: of whack as they are in academia, it doesn't take 765 00:40:36,524 --> 00:40:40,244 Speaker 2: like a really unscrupulous person. There are degrees of this, right. 766 00:40:40,324 --> 00:40:43,164 Speaker 2: There are people who aren't going to fabricate data sets, 767 00:40:43,244 --> 00:40:47,084 Speaker 2: but who will potentially get rid of some outlier results 768 00:40:47,204 --> 00:40:51,244 Speaker 2: or like swap data points around just a tiny bit, right, 769 00:40:51,324 --> 00:40:52,964 Speaker 2: like little things, and they'll be like, oh, well, it's 770 00:40:52,964 --> 00:40:55,244 Speaker 2: not as bad as fabricating a data I'm not that bad. 771 00:40:55,284 --> 00:40:57,804 Speaker 2: I didn't really do anything wrong, and I know my 772 00:40:57,884 --> 00:41:02,404 Speaker 2: results are correct, right, I believe in me, and I 773 00:41:02,484 --> 00:41:04,644 Speaker 2: know that this thesis is accurate, so I'm just doing 774 00:41:04,724 --> 00:41:08,044 Speaker 2: something good. It's really easy to start justifying bad behavior 775 00:41:08,644 --> 00:41:12,084 Speaker 2: when you're incentive to do that, and every single institution 776 00:41:12,164 --> 00:41:14,484 Speaker 2: right now incentivizes that. And this is true you know 777 00:41:14,564 --> 00:41:17,244 Speaker 2: outside of academia as well. Whenever you're trying to figure 778 00:41:17,244 --> 00:41:20,124 Speaker 2: out like what are how are people going to behave? 779 00:41:20,284 --> 00:41:23,204 Speaker 2: Look at the incentive structures, right, look at what type 780 00:41:23,244 --> 00:41:24,724 Speaker 2: of behavior is incentivized. 781 00:41:25,004 --> 00:41:26,644 Speaker 3: Since I am sort of a journalist, I mean like 782 00:41:26,724 --> 00:41:31,884 Speaker 3: having more skepticism about things you read in an academic paper, 783 00:41:32,244 --> 00:41:35,604 Speaker 3: just you need the level has to be like two 784 00:41:35,644 --> 00:41:38,164 Speaker 3: to three x higher than it is right now. 785 00:41:38,924 --> 00:41:42,044 Speaker 2: I totally agree with that, and yeah, that's it's a 786 00:41:42,084 --> 00:41:46,164 Speaker 2: sobering conclusion. And as someone who does you know, who 787 00:41:46,204 --> 00:41:48,204 Speaker 2: does have a PhD in psychology and who believes in 788 00:41:48,244 --> 00:41:50,484 Speaker 2: the discipline, who thinks that it has a ton to 789 00:41:50,524 --> 00:41:53,244 Speaker 2: add like, it breaks my heart because I want, you know, 790 00:41:53,284 --> 00:41:55,484 Speaker 2: I want good data, I want good studies. I think 791 00:41:55,524 --> 00:41:57,964 Speaker 2: there's so much that we can learn about the human mind. 792 00:41:58,324 --> 00:42:00,684 Speaker 2: I just want people to do good work. So please, 793 00:42:00,764 --> 00:42:09,084 Speaker 2: please do good work. Let us know what you think 794 00:42:09,124 --> 00:42:12,724 Speaker 2: of this. Reach out to us at Risky Business at 795 00:42:12,884 --> 00:42:19,124 Speaker 2: pushkin dot FM. Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kannikova. 796 00:42:18,964 --> 00:42:20,324 Speaker 3: And byby Nate Silver. 797 00:42:20,884 --> 00:42:24,404 Speaker 2: The show is a co production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. 798 00:42:24,924 --> 00:42:28,484 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Isabel Carter. Our associate producer 799 00:42:28,564 --> 00:42:32,084 Speaker 2: is Gabriel Hunter Chang. Our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. 800 00:42:32,884 --> 00:42:35,044 Speaker 3: If you like the show, please rate and review us 801 00:42:35,044 --> 00:42:37,124 Speaker 3: so other people can find us too. And if you 802 00:42:37,124 --> 00:42:39,484 Speaker 3: want to listen to an ad free version, sign up 803 00:42:39,524 --> 00:42:42,124 Speaker 3: for Pushkin Plus for six, ten and nine a month. 804 00:42:42,124 --> 00:42:44,964 Speaker 3: You would access to ad free listening. Thanks for tuning in.