WEBVTT - 124: Kratom’s Basilisk 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.360 It's one eleven AM in a box full of ones 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:07.320 and zeros on planet Mars, and you're listening to Night Call. 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.480 Welcome to Night Call, a college show about our dystopian reality. 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.239 My name is Emily Oshida, and with me on the 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.760 other line is Molly Lambert. And we will be joined 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.000 in the second half of the show by our special 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.200 guests Natasha Tiku and also Tess will be jumping in then. 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.400 But for now, it's just me and Emily. It's just 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:47.480 us and our new show, our new segment Chat and Cradham. Um. I, uh, 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.000 this is my own night call to that. I actually 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:52.919 considered doing a night call about this when I was 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:58.600 going out traveling east uh from Los Angeles, because basically 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.120 as soon as I got into the outh kind of 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.679 parts of Texas as well, I just noticed that Crawdham 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.959 was everywhere kind of with the ubiquity that UM CBD 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.240 is in you know, well just about everywhere now too, 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:18.880 but um definitely in California UM, and I vaguely knew 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.160 what it was, but I was sort of like, why 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.320 why is it? Why is there so much here? Why 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.480 does this feel like something that exists, uh, like kind 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:31.240 of outside of the uh, the coastal norms like you 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.760 don't see crowdam necessarily and your smoke shops and your 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.679 head shops and in California, and I don't know that 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.880 that's because it's we got crawdham. It's it's yeah, it's legal, 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:45.520 it's there. It's just not push it's not It's not everywhere, 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.400 but I've definitely seen it in the Hollywood boulevards, smoke 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.800 shops and some big signs that say like, we have crowdham. 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.000 Can you tell me what crawdham is? Well, I, I 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.280 mean I was actually thinking I should guinea pig and 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:00.880 do it myself and report back, but I haven't gotten 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:05.320 there yet. But um, I it was. It was moved 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:07.560 to the top of my awareness again because my friend 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:09.880 that I'm staying with here does use it, so I 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:11.160 was like, oh my gosh, you have to tell me 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.280 all about it. Um And And the the deal with 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:19.000 crowdham is that it's uh, it's a plant it uh 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.720 and it kind of works with your brain in a 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.400 similar way that opioids do. It. It attaches to the 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.280 same receptors um and has an effect that a lot 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:32.360 of people compare to um opioids, and a lot of 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:37.639 people use it therefore to uh self medicate and get 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.840 off of opioids, for instance. But there's like a lot 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.040 of other uses for it. There's um people use it 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:45.720 for all sorts of reasons. I'm gonna just read off 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:50.760 the Wikipedia uh Mitrigania speciosa, commonly known as crowdam, is 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.240 a tropical evergreen tree in the coffee family native to 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:58.760 Southeast Asia, Indigenous to Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Myan mar and 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.600 Papua New Guinea, where it has been used in traditional 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:06.320 medicines since the nineteenth century. Cradham has opioid properties and 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:11.880 stimulant like properties. Yeah, that's to both worlds. Baby makes 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:15.680 sense that it's related to coffee then yeah, yeah, I 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.000 mean I think you know, it's one of these things 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.040 that there's actually everything that I've read about it it 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:27.200 says there's comparatively little formal research done about it, which 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.000 is sort of becomes this catch twenty two when it 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.520 comes to regulating it, because there's been efforts to make 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:37.800 it a Schedule one substance for years now, um that 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:40.520 have not um that have not gone through, but that 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.160 would make it um kind of on the same level 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:49.680 as LSD, heroin, ecstasy and uh therefore also harder to research. Um. 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:53.839 There's a lot of limitations on researching those substances. UM. Yeah, 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.200 I guess the d e A said it has no 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:01.240 legitimate medical use in Yeah, clearly that's not true. Yeah, 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:07.240 I mean I think I I I there have been um, 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:13.000 I think fifteen deaths linked to Cradham maybe this past decade. 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.160 I'm not sure that the span of time, but it's 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:19.239 it's somewhat recent, um, which is you know, pretty low 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:22.039 and I'm not but again, we don't really like the 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.080 One thing that people do know is that it uh 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.000 if it even though it does create a sensation on 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:30.800 some people that is like obioids, it does not um 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.520 stop breathing. That's a you know, a signature of an 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.880 opioid overdoses, Um people stop breathing. But UM, so you 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:43.640 can basically have you know, I guess still get that um, 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.880 that same sensation without the risk with lower risk. UM. 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.719 The other other main risk that I saw was that 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:55.760 there was a Cradham link salmonella outbreak in UH. So 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:01.040 UH Salmonella is a possible risk of Crowdham, but also 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:06.479 UM of eating chicken. So there, Yeah, there were like 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:10.680 a hundred and ninety nine cases of of crowdham salmonella, 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.159 and so you know, there's very little report of like 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.080 lethality or danger or anything with this. And the the 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.440 impression that I got, but I would like night callers 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.160 who have firsthand or secondhand experience with it to give 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:26.720 us a call at one to four oh for six night. 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:31.039 But my impression is that this feels like a lot 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.520 like UM, a lot of other stuff we talked on 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:39.280 the show, UH, when it comes to people finding solutions, UM, 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.440 where healthcare is not UM coming coming, when when you 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:45.920 can't afford healthcare, when you can't when when the health 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.440 care system is not working for people, UM, when doctors 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:55.240 aren't equipped to address certain concerns. Um. This feels like 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.640 another one of these you're saying, this is like a 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.880 home grown way that people are getting opioids. Yeah, that 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.159 that seems to be what a lot of UH people 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:08.000 have used it for in in the various reports that 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.400 I've read, And it makes sense. I mean, um, yeah, 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.279 I I it just I was sort of it felt 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:19.040 very regional to me. It felt like a thing that 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:23.440 I started to see really pop up in UM in 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:25.640 these parts of the country that I had not spent 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.039 much time in recently, so it felt like, you know, 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:33.440 I noticed it. And I'm always interested in UM regional 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:38.560 truck use. Uh, what is more popular and for what 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.000 reasons UM in different part of the parts of the country. 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:45.120 And I think I would wonder if in New England 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.080 and a lot of places where there there have been 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:53.200 huge opioid epidemics, UM, if it's as prevalent there as well. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:57.920 I mean, obviously opioid abuses and and and and death 0:06:57.960 --> 0:06:59.719 has been all over the country, but you know, in 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:01.200 the in the parts of the country where it's been 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.240 particularly bad, I wonder if that's UM, if it's popular there. 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.320 There's something really Midwestern about being like we're going to 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.720 grow a plant to treat it right, Well, it's it 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.720 kind of it gives me vibes of salvia, which is like, 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.520 I mean, even though it's like totally different I think experience. 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.680 But just the drugs that are like not technically illegal, 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.880 but also there's no research done on them because most 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:31.760 of them are like and theogens for somebody, including creato 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:36.239 my guess, is used in some rituals, yeah, but also 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.120 used to just like keep people awake at work in factories. 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.720 It says, yeah, there's that part too. I mean, I'm 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.720 I'm color me curious, you know, maybe maybe next week. 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:51.040 I think it's crazy that caffeine is legal right as 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:54.800 we're on the beverage pod. Yeah, Like, I've had some 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:57.360 of the most fucked up experiences of my life from 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.920 having too much caffeine. You know, I have never really 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.360 freaked out from like smoking too much pot, but I've 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:07.560 definitely had like a panic attack from from caffeine from coffee. 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:13.000 We'll see everybody's everybody's body is different. Everyone's different. Yeah, 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.960 and uh, yeah, so I'll see. I guess I'll see, 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:20.960 uh what happens when I ride the green Wave And yeah, 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.040 we're going to take a quick break and when we 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.200 come back, we're going to be joined by Natasha and 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.280 Tests and uh and dive into the world of Unfriendly AI. 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.359 So stick with us. Hello, night callers. Have you experienced 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:39.240 any strange weather recently or any natural disasters in your 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:43.240 lifetime that are meaningful to you or something you want 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.840 to share with the show. Are you a storm chaser? 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:50.880 Do you actively seek out natural disasters? Are you Helen 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.120 Hunt from twister. Give us a night call at one 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.640 to four oh four six night or night email at 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.840 Night Call podcast at gmail dot com. Share your experience 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:04.120 with us. We're getting ready to dive into some scary 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:09.240 weather territory. So yeah, let us know what kinds of 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:13.079 storms and earthquakes and hurricanes you've been in. Things are 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.480 weirder than ever and we want to hear about it 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:29.000 from you. Welcome back to Nightcall. We are now joined 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.560 by our special guest, Natasha Tiku. Natasha is the tech 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.000 culture reporter for Washington Post and The Papers San Francisco Bureau. 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:38.800 She's been covering tech for more than a decade. She's 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:43.439 been at Wired, BuzzFeed News, The Verge, Valley Wag, among others. 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.760 Hello Natasha, Welcome to the pod. Thanks for having me. Guys, 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.400 I'm so excited for you to be here. We have 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:55.560 a night email that is I feel like right up 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:59.199 your alley high Night Call. Relatively new listener here catching 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:01.560 up on some recent episodes, and I wanted to add 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.440 to the discussion you've been having on Elon musk Ai 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.719 and fascist imaginings of the future. There's an article from 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.160 seventeen about a movement in Silicon Valley called the Dark 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:14.520 Enlightenment and it's neo reactionary followers that I think you 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.920 would enjoy, which with a link that we will include 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.920 in our show notes. The too long, didn't read version 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:22.640 is that a group of neo reactionaries believe that the 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.440 Singularity quote a vision of the future that anticipates artificial 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.480 intelligence both surpassing the human mind and merging with it. 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.920 End quote is inevitable that the resulting society will be 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.959 ruled by a super intelligence AI, and that Elon Musk 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.320 is using neural link to help build the tech to 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:41.280 merge the human brain with his AI super intelligence and 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:45.760 create an AI god king. It involves trans humanism, fascism, 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.840 and is as absurd as it is terrifying. Some of 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:52.520 Silicon Valley's most influential people, including Musk and Peter Teal, 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.800 are associated with this movement's thinkers and true believers. Elon 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.040 even found Grimes on Twitter because she made a joke 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.320 about Rocco's basilisk And anyway, I thought this article would 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:03.120 be a good read because it deals with a lot 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:04.840 of what you've been talking about on the pod with 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.560 Meredith and amongst yourselves. While putting a terrifying conspiratorial twist 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.680 on it. When I first read the article, it felt 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.480 like a conspiracy theory. But it's something I keep returning 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.439 to over the years for its explanatory power. Big fan 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:17.840 of the pod and I hope you found this as 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:22.280 interesting as I did. Thanks Justin. This was quite an article. 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.160 Um it. We will be linking to it. It's long 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.000 and dead is a long read, but it's a great read. 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:33.760 This is by Shuja Hater for Viewpoint Magazine. Yeah, the 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:38.920 Dark Enlightenment, the DAR or what is it d r 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.720 X or no, no, no, no, that's in the neo reactionaries? 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.679 Are that n r X like? Of course it has 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:49.679 to have an extreme abbreviation that sounds like an energy drink. 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.080 It sounds like d XAM, which is what people robo 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.840 trip on. Um. Natasha, how long have you been following 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:06.040 the Dark Enlightenment tech narrative? For about nine or ten years? Actually? UM. 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.400 Back when I lived in New York and worked for 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:13.199 Jared Kushner UM for the New York Observer, I had 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.280 written a story for them about UM, you know, trying 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.760 to find like a New York angle on UM, this 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:27.280 particular ecosystem of people and so in the article, although 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:28.880 I haven't had a chance to read that one, but 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.600 but basically a central figure there is elazer Yatkowski. Have 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:34.640 you you guys have talked about him on the pod 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:36.400 or you haven't talked about him on the pod or 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:40.600 he's featured heavily in this viewpoint article. Um, you know, 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.640 so he's he's a main character in the story. So yeah, 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:45.480 but if you want to explain for who he is 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:50.080 for listen, yeah, UM, so he is the author of 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.559 Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. UM. I don't 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:56.520 know if you guys know that, but it's a it's 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:02.280 a it's a central text for UM for this movement. UM. 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.600 It's kind of stems off of less wrong dot com, 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:08.240 which is a forum that a lot of these people 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.360 participate in. So at the time they're there, group was 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.880 called the Singularity Institute, not to be confused with Singularity University. 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.120 They've since changed the name, I believe because there was 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:25.679 some money exchange. UM, but now they're called um Miry 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.800 Machine Intelligence Research Institute. And that's where the Teal funding 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:31.920 came in. And in fact, like I think it's an 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.760 incredible investment from Peter teal because he only put in 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.040 like maybe a million dollars for the first donation and 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.360 then a couple hundred thousand after that. Like they haven't 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.439 received a ton of money, and yet like think about 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:51.040 the like the return on investment in terms of being 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:56.520 associated with futurism and enlightenment and contrarianism and and like 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.600 same with his c studing investments. It's actually very minor. 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.120 And since then, UM, there has been a lot of 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:08.720 other people like UM, the Ethereum guy, uh Skype co founders, Khaza, 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.760 like you can look at UM who is donated to them. 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.120 But but in any case, there they have an actually 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:20.800 a pretty simplistic argument UM about unfriendly AI general, you know, 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:25.800 artificial intelligence that UM you know, if you don't, it's 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.400 sort of like it's and it's really infected the effective 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:32.080 altruism movement. UM. So it's like, if you don't do 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.240 everything you can in your power right now to prevent 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:41.480 unfriendly AI from from coming into existence, unfriendly AI will 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.120 will you know, kill you and kill everyone and revenge 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.520 exactly like Eliaser's the guy behind the paper clip experiment. 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:51.600 Just the idea that you know, it just could happen. 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.200 You tell them to maximize for peace, and the quickest 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.160 way to peace is to kill all the humans. Um 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:00.840 you know. So so that's how all of Human City ends. 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.960 And Ellie's are like not, you know, not a comment 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:09.280 on his intelligence, but he is a third grade dropout 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.720 and like does not have a background in this stuff. 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.320 So it also causes a really big rift within the 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:22.040 AI community, Like the Google founders definitely do not appreciate, um, 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.880 you know this this uh, this kind of very cinematic 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:29.400 take on on unfriendly Yeah, sorry, I just want to right, 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.680 but it's super fascinating. Right. So, the place I learned 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.720 about the singularity was from the Ray Kurtzwild books from 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.920 the eighties, I believe, which sort of put forth the 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:46.120 idea of the singularity, the moment when AI will merge 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:51.080 with human intellect or surpass it. Is that where a 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.200 lot of this comes from originally. Yes, Ray is definitely 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:59.280 a foundational thinker, although he doesn't get referenced I think 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.920 that much anymore. But I mean, honestly, they talk about, 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:05.480 like the members that I've met with do talk about 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.680 like John Connor and Terminator to try to explain it 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:13.200 to other people. Although you know, they've been warned against that, 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.200 but it just it helps you understand, it helps you 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.960 picture it. And and Google and everybody like they're they're 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:23.680 anti that's just because they've invested so much in like 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.160 neural networks and the you know, machine learning and all this, 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.120 and so you know, they potentially are playing the role 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.440 of skynet here, which maybe is not a role they 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.280 want to be perceived as playing, even if they are. 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:42.160 To give them a little credit, UM, I think it's 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.720 actually based on their own understanding of how neural nets 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.640 work and how um, you know, machine learning works. I 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:53.840 think they're just saying like that is not um, it's 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:58.640 just that like far fetched potential reality is just going 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.920 to distract you from like the very real things that 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:06.560 happen when you put in like bad data sets and um, 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.200 you know, you have a bunch of developers and um 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.520 machine learning experts who don't think about the implications of 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:16.119 their work. Like it's it's like, you know, people have 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.840 been talking about self driving cars forever, Like the chances 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:24.000 of a self driving car almost as far off as 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.199 or vice versa. Yeah. Yeah, one of the things in 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:30.560 this article, UM that I thought was interesting because I'm 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.240 less familiar with this kind of stuff, but uh, and 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.199 I didn't even realize that this was a concern that 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.119 people had. I'm quoting from the article, but this is 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:44.240 Roko's hypothesis. Hypothesis um that AI maybe quote or it 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.640 may quote, develop a survival instinct that it will apply retroactively. 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.760 It will want to hasten its own birth by requisition 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.600 in human history to work towards its creation. In order 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.120 to do this, it will institute an incentive that dictates 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.600 how you will be treated after you come back to life. 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.040 So is that kind of the center of this panic 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:07.480 is that if we create machines that reach singularly, you 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.399 know that if we reach the singularity point, that the 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:14.040 machines will somehow like become angry at us and try 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.320 to bring us back to life and torture us forever, 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.000 because that was alluded to in this article. And I 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:24.479 was like, is that actually what Rocco's first post like 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.879 did to people's brains? Is that where their their minds 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.040 went with that? Well, I feel like it's sort of 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:34.040 this thing where it's like, if you take rationalism far enough, 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.680 you're just gonna like be rationalizing away human beings. So 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.199 like because there's nothing rational about human beings like that 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.199 feels like the crux of this. But then I think 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.200 the thing that's funny about the Rocco's basilic thing is 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.440 that it's like a cursed chain mail letter or something. 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:51.080 It's like, if you exactly then your brain is poisoned forever, 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.679 and now you are a part of the scheme to 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:59.000 bring about the unfriendly or you have this moral responsibility 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:05.199 to somehow coach AI to be beneficent, benevolent or whatever. Uh, 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.760 And and that if you don't act, if you don't 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.600 act on that, that they will be evil because now 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:12.760 you know and say you have some kind of an 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.520 obligation to do that. Yeah, I mean it honestly sounds 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:22.680 so much like the white racists being afraid that when 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.760 minorities have power, they'll come treat the white people like 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:31.320 white people have been treating them all along. And that 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:35.359 is something that I thought was interesting because it's like, 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.320 what if they put as much money and time and 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:42.399 thought into dealing with the racism issues that they have 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.840 in tech as they do to dealing with like a 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.679 potential unfriendly AI, which is the thing that doesn't exist, 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.199 unlike racism which does. Right I think there's the like 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:56.800 the two potential um you know, dreadful outcomes. One is 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:02.080 the you know, uh sentient AI that that judges you 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:04.119 for your actions, and then the other is that like 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:08.159 paper clip factory example, where um, you know, just you 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.560 put in an input to maximize one thing or the 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:14.760 other and just like without even attributing human attributes to 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:19.000 the to the machine, it just destroys humanity because you 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.320 didn't have enough people writing white papers and thinking about it. 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:24.480 And in the way that it's like, you know, become 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.320 such a priority for the effective altruism movement is like 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.600 I think dovetails into exactly what you're saying, well about like, um, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:38.000 so that's a movie like money that potentially initially was 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.480 fixated on how you can make the most impact on 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.639 like the you know, on poverty or um you know, 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:49.720 global desperation in its many forms, and is now prioritizing 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:55.159 as one of the top issues this um eventuality potential. Yeah, no, 0:20:55.400 --> 0:21:00.240 I uh, does anybody know who Roco is is? The 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.960 person who kind of floated this idea to begin with 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:07.679 that's become you know, that's had this much consequence financially 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.560 for the tech world. Does any like I didn't. I 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:15.520 couldn't find anything about who this dude was. I forgot, 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:17.679 but I think I looked it up when Grimes and 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:19.840 Elon Musk Scott because I just could not believe she 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:24.760 would because it's forbidding being discussed now. So I maybe 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:26.840 it's from Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. I 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:31.960 wouldn't be I'm looking. It's named after a legendary serpent 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:37.119 creature from European mythology that killed Bisques. I was just 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:43.040 wondering about Rocco. Yeah, the dude Rocco or Rocco's obviously 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:46.240 the sentient robot from the future who created this to 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:51.080 warn people. Yeah, um, but yeah, I mean, you know 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.479 the pop cultural implement implications also of this idea that 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.320 it did bring Grimes and Elon Musk together to have 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:03.080 their math baby, So you know, it's the tendrils reach 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:07.160 into all sectors of society and culture. Basilisks, by the way, 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:11.160 Molly are still popular pets, those lizards. They can walk 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.520 on water. But the whole thing about the Basilist because 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:15.880 it's a monster. The reason that they called it the 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.600 rokos Basilist, because that because it's a monster that you 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:22.720 die if you look at it. So that's the whole 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.920 thing of if you are exposed to this theory about 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.960 the unfriendly AI, then you are now a part of it. 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.280 Because the idea we should clarify the idea is that 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.879 by putting that idea into the Internet, by typing it 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:40.720 onto the internet, the thing that the AI are supposedly 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:43.760 going to be learning from, you have now exposed them 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.480 to this idea and they're like, hey, great idea. Human. 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.080 When I'm smart enough, I'm going to destroy you if 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:53.240 you didn't help me exist. Um, that's that kind of 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.119 feels like the gist of it. I thought it was 0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:58.640 also a little bit that when you spread that idea 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:01.439 among people, like they can't stop thinking about it. Like 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:05.480 people were going like years of effective altruism are less wrong. 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:09.520 We're like, yeah, people were really really losing it. Yeah Yeah. 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:11.679 Why do you think so much time gets spent on 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:15.320 theoretical problems like this when there are so many real 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.920 problems in tech that you've been covering for a decade 0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:24.680 that seemingly have not gotten fixed or even really worked on. Well, 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:30.320 it's I mean, it's an incredibly effective tactic. Um. I 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:32.920 don't know if you guys are familiar with data and society, 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:36.120 but they have a bunch of researchers who do like 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:41.719 great work kind of tying historical discussion on automation with 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:44.200 how things are going these days. I mean it's it's 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:48.200 just like as simple as as it looks like you 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:52.040 you know, gesture over here and um make it sound 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:55.560 make the future sound inevitable, right like if self driving 0:23:55.600 --> 0:23:59.639 cars are inevitable, then you don't need to worry about people, um, 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:03.280 you know, complaining about this or that, um, and it 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:08.480 makes it seems the fight seemed futile, like it just 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:10.800 distracts you. I mean this is also how like companies 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:12.440 work with I P O s. You know, it's or 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:14.760 or whatever like the stuff like public companies with the 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:19.000 stock market. It's just always the next thing, Like new 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:22.480 work is looking at co living and then I don't 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:25.800 know what they're looking at, like wave pools that's actually 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:29.040 a real one. Um, I was gonna stay in spaceships, um, 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:32.720 you know, or Elon Musk looking at Mars when you 0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:38.240 know what they're doing right now is uh cheaper work 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:42.320 that has already been accomplished. So if you think that 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:45.960 like eventually this planet is going to blow Um, then 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:48.440