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Speaker 1: Hi, this is new I am currently staying at home

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Speaker 1: in Rome to bring you this episode this week. I'm

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Speaker 1: recording from my home, so you may notice a difference

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Speaker 1: in audio quality on this episode of News World. This

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Speaker 1: episode is the fifth in a series of episodes we're

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Speaker 1: presenting about COVID nineteen healthcare breakthroughs. We're looking at treatments

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Speaker 1: for COVID nineteen that will help improve patient outcomes or

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Speaker 1: stop the virus from spreading. Vaccine development for COVID nineteen

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Speaker 1: is underway across the world. Multiple pharmaceutical companies are working

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Speaker 1: on developing a vaccine they hope to release as soon

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Speaker 1: as twenty twenty one. My guest today is currently working

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Speaker 1: with Halobax hell Elsie, a special purpose subsidiary of Altering

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Speaker 1: Therapeutic Team, to develop a self assembling vaccine to protect

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Speaker 1: patients at risk of COVID nineteen infections. The vaccine is

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Speaker 1: being designed specifically and responds to the pandemic and with

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Speaker 1: safety as the key component, so as not to attack

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Speaker 1: the immune system one administry. The self assembling vaccine is

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Speaker 1: also being designed to be highly adaptable, allowing for seamless

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Speaker 1: modifications in the face of potential genetic rift or future coronaviruses.

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Speaker 1: Will discuss this revolutionary vaccine research and other vaccines and

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Speaker 1: studies that are in development for COVID nineteen. Doctor Mark

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Speaker 1: Poznanski is an Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School,

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Speaker 1: an attending physician and Infectious Diseases Medicine at the Massachusetts

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Speaker 1: General Hospital, and director of the Vaccine and Immunotherapy Center.

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Speaker 1: This clinical subspecialization includes the treatment of infection and immune

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Speaker 1: compromise patients. Leoming a start by how did you get

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Speaker 1: to hear? It's a very interesting question as a sort

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Speaker 1: of cyclical. I wanted to be a doctor from about

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Speaker 1: the age of eight. My mother's a doctor. I come

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Speaker 1: from a line of doctors, so age of eight, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to become a doctor. And interestingly, when I was

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Speaker 1: about eleven, I realized that there were infectious diseases. So

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Speaker 1: I had two brothers at that time, and when they

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Speaker 1: got something, I realized I would get it shortly thereafter.

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Speaker 1: And the pinnacle of that story was that my parents

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Speaker 1: came home one day after school and they found that

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Speaker 1: I'd locked my brothers in a room because they were

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Speaker 1: developing chicken pox. So at the age of eleven, I

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Speaker 1: had already been aware of the idea of quarantine. Of

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Speaker 1: course I got chicken pox anyway, but because my parents

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Speaker 1: let them out of the room so they could have dinner.

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Speaker 1: From there. Obviously I went to medical school. But I

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Speaker 1: think what's pertinent COVID nineteen is that I emerged as

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Speaker 1: a young medical student and intern at the very beginning

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Speaker 1: of the HIV pandemic at Edinburgh University Medical School. So

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Speaker 1: in Edinburgh, the story is quite dramatic. All two thousand

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Speaker 1: ivy drug users in Edinburgh zero converted in the space

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Speaker 1: of about six months, so they all got HIV because

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Speaker 1: there were no needle banks or anything like that, so

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Speaker 1: they were all sharing needles. Was that about nineteen eighty three,

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Speaker 1: exactly nineteen eighty three to nineteen eighty six, so I

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Speaker 1: was for my final years of medical school and then

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Speaker 1: becoming an intern. You're absolutely right on the year, and

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Speaker 1: it just was all encompassing. You can imagine being an

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Speaker 1: intern at the beginning of that great pandemic. I find

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Speaker 1: myself reflecting back to that time and how we dealt

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Speaker 1: with it and the lessons of that now with COVID nineteen,

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Speaker 1: which actually in terms of scale is much much greater,

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Speaker 1: because the at risk population is the entire global population

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Speaker 1: as far as we know became aware. Obviously, hivs are

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Speaker 1: sexually transmitted disease. There are risk behaviors ivy, drug use,

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Speaker 1: and so forth. So now forty years later, we are

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Speaker 1: facing the real pandemic where the whole population is vulnerable

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Speaker 1: and calls for an even greater level of targeted scientific

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Speaker 1: and medical activity to contain this enormous threat, both medically, socially, economically, spiritually,

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Speaker 1: you name it. One makes COVID nineteen a greater threat

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Speaker 1: than the other pandemics of the last forty years. I

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Speaker 1: would say what appears to be an entirely naive and

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Speaker 1: I'm musing the word immune naive population globally. So it's

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Speaker 1: a virus that no one has ever seen up until

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Speaker 1: what we think may have been December of last year.

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Speaker 1: So the whole global human population is at risk of infection.

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Speaker 1: That's number one. Number two. As was the case with HIV,

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Speaker 1: we're just beginning to learn about the disease that it causes.

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Speaker 1: In other words, at first we thought, well, maybe it's

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Speaker 1: like a serious version of flu, maybe it's like SARS was.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out to have its own issues of

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Speaker 1: how it presents, and you're probably following the news like

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Speaker 1: I am, and I'm reading medical literatron the pediatric cases

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Speaker 1: of this Kawasaki vasculitis disease, the way that it presents

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Speaker 1: in children, the way that it presents in adults, the

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Speaker 1: different organs that it affects in adults, the skin, the gut,

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Speaker 1: the brain, the immune system itself, obviously, the lungs, the heart,

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Speaker 1: the kidney. It's not just that the whole population of

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Speaker 1: the world is vulnerable, but within that population, there are

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Speaker 1: proportions of that population that are vulnerable to all these

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Speaker 1: different hits on their particular organ systems. I do have

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a skewed view because when we're

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Speaker 1: up working in the hospital with sort of the infectious

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Speaker 1: disease attending following patients in the ICU, so we do

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Speaker 1: see the most severely ill patients. But what we're seeing

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Speaker 1: our patients who are civilial and multiple organ systems in

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Speaker 1: their body have been damaged. That is a serious pandemic condition.

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Speaker 1: I just don't want to be alarmist to the extent

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Speaker 1: that obviously the vast majority of people actually recover, but

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Speaker 1: what it's leaving as a burden for the healthcare system.

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Speaker 1: Is obviously the most seriously ill patients, which is much

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Speaker 1: more significant than HIV was. Because of the numbers that

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Speaker 1: we're dealing with. The pandemic curve has been flattened in Massachusetts,

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Speaker 1: but we have three hundred or thereabouts patients with moderate

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Speaker 1: or severe disease in the hospital at this very moment.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of patients, a lot of beds in

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Speaker 1: a hospital that has about a thousand total beds. We

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Speaker 1: never saw that with HIV. That scale of hospital pancy

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Speaker 1: was never seen with HIV. You have a virus which

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Speaker 1: is probably in some ways still evolving in its relationship

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Speaker 1: with humans, because in a sense, if it's new to us,

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Speaker 1: we're new to it, yes, and therefore we don't quite

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Speaker 1: know how many permutations are going to be how it

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Speaker 1: affects us. Correct. Does it look like most of the

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Speaker 1: people who do recover are developing some kind of immunity

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Speaker 1: or do we not know enough yet? Well? I think

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Speaker 1: the thing is, it's like the phrase some kind of immunity,

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Speaker 1: so we can detect that they have antibodies to the virus.

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Speaker 1: The question is, because the disease is new, would they

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Speaker 1: get the disease again if they're challenged. I don't think

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Speaker 1: we yet know that case. I haven't seen cases of

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Speaker 1: patients who have demonstrably had dual infection. You know, they

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Speaker 1: were infected early on in the pandemic, and then they're

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Speaker 1: infected again and actually become I do go with doctor

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Speaker 1: Anthony Fauci's point that it would be a very unusual virus.

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Speaker 1: It fails to evoke a protective immune response or proper

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Speaker 1: immunity in humans. Humans have an amazing immune system that

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Speaker 1: is obviously kept a species alive and thriving for millions

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Speaker 1: of years and has not been extinguished by a pandemic yet.

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Speaker 1: So the idea that somehow from that regard COVID would

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Speaker 1: be completely different. I agree with doctor Fauci. I think

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Speaker 1: it would be highly unlikely. But the science is still

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Speaker 1: out there that needs to be done to prove it,

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Speaker 1: and some of that is time. We just need to

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Speaker 1: learn more. It's not something we can learn immediately, because

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Speaker 1: the pandemic has to play out longer for us to

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Speaker 1: understand that. I guess, other than the Black Death in

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Speaker 1: the seventeenth century, which may have killed off the third

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Speaker 1: of Europe, even the Spanish flu, which killed a lot

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Speaker 1: of people more than the First World War in terms

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Speaker 1: of the total species, had a relatively smaller impact than

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Speaker 1: the kind of disaster that I think we're kind of

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Speaker 1: braced for. Well, I mean, the history of pandemics like

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Speaker 1: that is obviously people left the cities to go to

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Speaker 1: the countryside, and that was when there was mostly a

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Speaker 1: rural economy. Now the average city size is millions of people,

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Speaker 1: and most of the productivity as occurring in the cities.

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Speaker 1: Elio Serhouni when he was the head of NIH, he'd

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Speaker 1: been born in Algeria and had a unique view of

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Speaker 1: the world, and I remember working with him in one

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Speaker 1: meeting and he said, you now have four star hotels

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Speaker 1: one block away from a slum in which people have

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Speaker 1: walked in from the jungle. Right. The number of things

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Speaker 1: that are going to cross over, that are going to

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Speaker 1: enter the sort of first World by jet aircraft is

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Speaker 1: almost imagining and is virtually guaranteed. And in a sense

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Speaker 1: that's what we're living through. A bad virus out of

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Speaker 1: southern China now got me spending nine weeks in a

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Speaker 1: house in Rome. Italians try to cope with us, and

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Speaker 1: you're going through the same thing in New England. I'm

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Speaker 1: so glad you make that point, because I think that

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Speaker 1: can sometimes be lost that Let's take Wuhan. Before industrialization,

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Speaker 1: it might have been a little city, mostly agrarian, and

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Speaker 1: so forth. It expands to a city state ten to

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Speaker 1: fifteen million with one of these wild animal grocery markets

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Speaker 1: in it. The scope of disease transfer between animals a

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Speaker 1: vast human population is now massive. And I do want

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Speaker 1: to say, to the great credit of the US Department

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Speaker 1: of Defense, they were monitoring this over a decade ago

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Speaker 1: and looking at virus in those animals and looking at

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Speaker 1: those ones that could potentially cross over into the humans.

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Speaker 1: It was a pandemic waiting to happen. There's an amazing

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Speaker 1: article from two thousand and seven in which four Chinese

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Speaker 1: researchers said, people keep eating this particular bat from southern China,

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Speaker 1: and this bat clearly is carrying this particular virus, and

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Speaker 1: they said, sooner or later, this is going to be

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Speaker 1: a disaster. Now this is thirteen years ago, but the

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Speaker 1: other part of it is this is not the last one,

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Speaker 1: and we need to be thinking about building a public

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Speaker 1: health system that can assume that every five or ten

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Speaker 1: years for the foreseeable future, something will come out of

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Speaker 1: somewhere and it will be new and different, and we'll

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Speaker 1: have to be able to mobilize and deal. And that's

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Speaker 1: been our experience for the last twenty or twenty five

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Speaker 1: years now. We've had considerable growth in a number of

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Speaker 1: interesting things that come out of Mother Nature decided to

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Speaker 1: become visitors. But now, Jemmy, whose huge amount of hope

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Speaker 1: being placed on this whole notion of getting to a vaccine.

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Speaker 1: What's your sense of that. How likely is it that

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Speaker 1: we will develop a vaccine for COVID nineteen in a

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Speaker 1: reasonable period of time. Number One, the human race has

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Speaker 1: certain advantages in this setting, and one of it is

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Speaker 1: diversity of thinking, diversity of ideas. The fact that I

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Speaker 1: think at the last count they're over a hundred vaccine

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Speaker 1: platforms going after COVID nineteen is a great human response.

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Speaker 1: There's no reason at this point as a human to

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Speaker 1: say I'm banking on this one. I'm banking on that one.

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Speaker 1: It's just that human diverse thought in a scientific setting

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Speaker 1: is one of our great opportunity builders, and in this

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Speaker 1: context gives us multiple shots on goal. So I think

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Speaker 1: that it's likely I can't say it's very likely because

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Speaker 1: we don't know enough about the disease or the immune

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Speaker 1: response yet to it. Like we've started off talking about

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Speaker 1: what is a protective immune response, since we don't quite

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Speaker 1: yet know what that is. We don't know what we're

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Speaker 1: building the vaccine to do. However, because we've got over

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Speaker 1: a hundred shots on goal, we may just hit on

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Speaker 1: the one that counts. And we have to remember that

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Speaker 1: a lot of great vaccine development all the way back

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Speaker 1: to small parks, and even before that, President George Washington

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Speaker 1: using small parks lesions to vaccinate his own army was

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Speaker 1: very successful in its own right. So we may be

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Speaker 1: able to get to a vaccine without knowing everything about

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Speaker 1: the immunology of virus. So I think it's likely, but

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Speaker 1: there are limitations. The likeliness has bred out of the

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Speaker 1: diversity of platforms and the fact that in vaccine history

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Speaker 1: we have hit it lucky without even potentially sometimes like

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Speaker 1: Jenna did, without even knowing immunology or virology. He came

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Speaker 1: up with the smallpox vaccine. So that makes it likely,

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Speaker 1: But I can't say more than that. At this point,

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Speaker 1: you'd I just think that we just have to rely

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Speaker 1: twelve to eighteen months. And if we're talking about, in

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Speaker 1: the best case, twelve to eighteen months, how do we

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Speaker 1: cope with both the social isolation and the economic decay

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Speaker 1: over that longer period of time. The other play that

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Speaker 1: humans have developed is tremendous global communication. So we have

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Speaker 1: to learn from each other, from New Zealand, from Israel,

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Speaker 1: from South Korea, countries that have worked out systems to

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Speaker 1: get their people back to work. One of the things

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Speaker 1: from Israel is that I think they have recognized that

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Speaker 1: have parents going back to work unless you have kids

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Speaker 1: going back to school. And I could, at least following

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Speaker 1: the news on the times of Israel and so forth,

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Speaker 1: I can see that they're slowly bringing the schools back. First,

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Speaker 1: I guess my point to you is I'm an expert

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Speaker 1: in infectious diseases, but I'm not an expert in sort

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Speaker 1: of population control in bringing back the economy. But I

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Speaker 1: know that there are models being developed all over the

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Speaker 1: world that are looking successful that we should learn from.

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Speaker 1: And I also think that one could assemble like these

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Speaker 1: countries are database systems based on maybe not perfect, but

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Speaker 1: good enough immunology testing. I wrote an op ed in

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Speaker 1: The Hill about this. There are good enough systems that

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Speaker 1: could help us get back to work. It just suddenly

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Speaker 1: struck me. I go to work every day. I work

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Speaker 1: in a hospital. I have to attest to my symptoms.

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Speaker 1: I have to wash my hands, wear gloves when appropriate, masks,

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Speaker 1: all of the stuff you can imagine. And I go

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Speaker 1: to work every day. So if there's a less than

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Speaker 1: perfect system, I don't have a blood test every day

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Speaker 1: to do that. But there's a system that keeps the

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Speaker 1: hospital working. And I think for each company and for

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Speaker 1: each public service, there are systems that can be put

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Speaker 1: that needs to come into play and start to be deployed,

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Speaker 1: both at federal and state levels to make this happen. Now,

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Speaker 1: apparently there's an articles come out in the last couple

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Speaker 1: of days from China indicating that there maybe as many

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Speaker 1: as thirty different strains of this particular virus, which I

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Speaker 1: would think is fairly unusual to have that rate. Of

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Speaker 1: mutation or that of evolution. Do you sense you're dealing

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Speaker 1: with more than one core kind of virus when you

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Speaker 1: look at the patients that you're dealing with. Not yet,

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Speaker 1: other than we see mild, moderate, and severe disease. I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's yet been worked out. However, there's a

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Speaker 1: beautiful article published by los Alamos and Sheffield University in

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Speaker 1: the UK which a tremendous genetic experts looking at actually

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Speaker 1: two dominant strains of the virus. There was the original

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Speaker 1: founder strain and then there was a mutation and there's

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Speaker 1: a secondary strain. Interestingly, the secondary strain dominates in England

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Speaker 1: compared to other countries where there might be a mix

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Speaker 1: of the first strain and the second. I haven't read

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Speaker 1: the article about thirty different variants. I think the important

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Speaker 1: thing scientifically is the one that they're looking at in

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Speaker 1: the Sheffield los Alamos study is the predominant strains, and

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Speaker 1: the mutation does affect a major binding site that antibodies

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Speaker 1: go after in the virus. There are mutations of virus

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Speaker 1: can have which make no difference to either its immunology

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Speaker 1: or the way it causes disease, and there others like

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Speaker 1: this one that's interesting that may actually affect how your

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Speaker 1: immune system reacts to it. That's the most up to

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Speaker 1: date and article I think published or at least in

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Speaker 1: preprint version this week, but beautifully written, beautifully studied by

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Speaker 1: experts with regards to two variants. But there's no link

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Speaker 1: in that study new to any difference in terms of

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Speaker 1: how the disease presents. They did look at it and

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Speaker 1: they're with no difference. So even though the virus itself

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Speaker 1: may have some unique different characteristics, they're irrelevant in terms

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Speaker 1: of the impact of humans exactly. Yes, they may be

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Speaker 1: irrelevant the way the humans seeds it. The study our

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Speaker 1: sighting was by Professor Leland Juan and colleagues from Jujern

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Speaker 1: University in China, where they're suggesting it is mutated into

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Speaker 1: thirty different variance, which would surprise me a little bit.

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Speaker 1: In the period when you were Edinburgh warring about HIV eight,

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Speaker 1: I repented the Center for Disease Control and Congress. When

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Speaker 1: I would go regularly, I really got to know Frauchi

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Speaker 1: back then, and I was very concerned about because back then,

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Speaker 1: of course, there was a devastating disease for which we

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Speaker 1: had no good therapist I worried about its potential for evolving,

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Speaker 1: But the people at CDC were pretty confident that that

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Speaker 1: particular problem is so complex that it's pretty well locked

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Speaker 1: into being what it is that doesn't have a fluidity

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Speaker 1: that it can evolve into. The nightmare is when you

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Speaker 1: finally figure out a particular virus and then you turn

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Speaker 1: around and the virus shifts in a way that we

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Speaker 1: can't deal with. I think that's when it becomes a

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Speaker 1: real challenge. There are specific vaccines being developed in Boston.

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Speaker 1: Vulting Therapeutics is partnering with match General and they have

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Speaker 1: hope that they're going to enter animal testing. These kind

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Speaker 1: of partnerships where you have the drive and the energy

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Speaker 1: of the private sector, but you also have the knowledge

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Speaker 1: and the capabilities of the public sector collaborating the other.

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Speaker 1: They're really sort of the model of the future, aren't they?

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Speaker 1: For complex issues? Nude it's so important this point. Academics

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Speaker 1: don't make medical products. Companies do. In the partnership we

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Speaker 1: have around building a COVID nineteen vaccine, which the Center

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Speaker 1: that I direct Vaccine Imminent Centers developing, we're calling it

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Speaker 1: halo vax. It established a partnership with a company a

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Speaker 1: few weeks before the pandemic, and that was purely by chance.

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Speaker 1: And then two weeks after the pandemic started, the company

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Speaker 1: moved to raise money to get our vaccine, halo vax.

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Speaker 1: This company is called Vultron Therapeutics and collaboration with Half

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Speaker 1: Therapeutics raise the money to get our vaccine built and

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Speaker 1: tested an animals, and that was all in the space

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Speaker 1: of two to four weeks effectively well, and I think

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Speaker 1: the biggest thing that happens, I'll just tell you, is

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Speaker 1: that academics build things, and they build them for several years,

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Speaker 1: and then they want to partner with industry, and then

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Speaker 1: there are all sorts of groundhog day issues of having

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Speaker 1: to go back to the drawing board and did at work.

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Speaker 1: What we've learned at our center is to partner with

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Speaker 1: industry directly and accelerate that process by which a product

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Speaker 1: is generated and tested in an industrial manner, which is

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Speaker 1: so different from testing something in an academic manner. And

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Speaker 1: I think that could be one of the great kind

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Speaker 1: of readouts from this is that academia adapted to be

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Speaker 1: more industry like or more friendly to partnering with industry

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Speaker 1: than ever before. Not that it hasn't been on that path,

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Speaker 1: but it's needed more than ever because of the urgency

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Speaker 1: of needing products now as opposed to in five years.

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Speaker 1: I've been very impressed by the scale of innovation, both

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Speaker 1: in therapies, in vaccines, and in testing. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: number of different players who come into the game and

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Speaker 1: the speed and intensity with which they're operating. I think

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Speaker 1: is a pretty good tribute to the way our system

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Speaker 1: operates and really rising to the challenge, and I suspect

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Speaker 1: by late summer our production capabilities will be such that

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Speaker 1: large parts of the Third world will be relying on

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Speaker 1: American capabilities to deal with all this. The other big

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Speaker 1: attribute is a free society in which all constructive ideas

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Speaker 1: are allowed to flourish in a scientific manner. And your

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Speaker 1: all power to our US system that allows that to

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Speaker 1: happen and to support for it. It's a key thing

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Speaker 1: for our survival to maintain that type of freedom of

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Speaker 1: thought and freedom of idea development and product development happens

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Speaker 1: in the US. This is about pandemic preparedness well into

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Speaker 1: the rest of this century and possibly beyond. But I

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Speaker 1: want to thank you. I think this has been very,

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Speaker 1: very helpful, and I think that our audience will find

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Speaker 1: it very educational and very informative. I think information is power,

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Speaker 1: and I really I'm grateful to have this opportunity to

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Speaker 1: speak to you about this issue. Thank you to my

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Speaker 1: guest doctor Mark Poznanski. You can read more about the

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Speaker 1: development of a vaccine for COVID nineteen on our show

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Speaker 1: page at newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Gingerish

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Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers

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Speaker 1: and our producer is Lornsey Song. The artwork for the

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Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Peller Special thanks to the

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Speaker 1: team at Gingwich three sixty. Please email me with your

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Speaker 1: comments at newt at newtsworld dot com. If you've been

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Speaker 1: enjoying news World, I hope you'll go to Apple podcast

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Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us

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Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about.

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Speaker 1: On the next episode of news World. Our China and

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Speaker 1: COVID nineteen series continues with part three on April twenty first,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Missouri Attorney General Eric Schmidt filed a lawsuit

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Speaker 1: against the Chinese government for COVID nineteen. He leads a

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Speaker 1: growing course of holding China accountable for the devastation the

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Speaker 1: virus has caused. I'm new English. This is news World