1
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,920
Speaker 1: These days, we're all spending a lot of time with

2
00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 1: our computers, our iPads, and our iPhones. I personally spend

3
00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,480
Speaker 1: more than ten hours every day in front of my

4
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,360
Speaker 1: trusty laptop. But here's a question. When you're done for

5
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,280
Speaker 1: the day and you close your computer, do you say

6
00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,600
Speaker 1: good night to it the way you might say good

7
00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,520
Speaker 1: night to a friend or a coworker, even though that

8
00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 1: computer is doing so much work for you? I mean,

9
00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,560
Speaker 1: do you ever think about what it's like to be

10
00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:42,000
Speaker 1: your laptop? If your laptop had more personality like Jarvis

11
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,080
Speaker 1: in Iron Man, would you treat it more like a person?

12
00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,000
Speaker 1: Would you care about how it felt even if you

13
00:00:48,040 --> 00:01:07,840
Speaker 1: could never actually know what it's like to be a laptop. Hi,

14
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,080
Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I've spent a

15
00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,560
Speaker 1: lot of time thinking about what it's like to be

16
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,880
Speaker 1: a particle, an alien, or even another person. And Welcome

17
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,120
Speaker 1: to the podcast Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe, in

18
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,920
Speaker 1: which we explore all of the ways of thinking and

19
00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,200
Speaker 1: being in our universe, where we talk about what's going

20
00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,680
Speaker 1: on in the hearts of black holes, to how long

21
00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,520
Speaker 1: our son is going to live, to how volcanoes have

22
00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,360
Speaker 1: formed the atmosphere of Earth. We talk about all the

23
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,479
Speaker 1: physics in the universe and try to make sure all

24
00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,880
Speaker 1: of it makes sense to you, but we don't limit

25
00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,839
Speaker 1: ourselves just to talking about this universe. In the podcast,

26
00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,760
Speaker 1: we also like to talk about the process of science,

27
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,280
Speaker 1: the creative element, where we are imagining other possible universes

28
00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 1: that might be ours. Because here we are on the

29
00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:01,120
Speaker 1: forefront of science, having understood some time the fraction of

30
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,960
Speaker 1: the mysteries of the universe, but knowing that many enormous

31
00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,040
Speaker 1: discoveries lay ahead, hoping at least that there are grand

32
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,600
Speaker 1: revelations about the nature of the universe lying ahead of us,

33
00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 1: and a critical step to revealing those deep bits of

34
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,919
Speaker 1: knowledge is imagining them first. And since we don't know

35
00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,200
Speaker 1: which universe is ours, we have to hold in our

36
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:29,360
Speaker 1: minds several possible universes, sometimes an infinite set of possible

37
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,519
Speaker 1: universes which could be ours. And that's the job sometimes

38
00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,920
Speaker 1: of theoretical physicists thinking about how the universe might or

39
00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,720
Speaker 1: might not work. But it's also the province of artists,

40
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,280
Speaker 1: especially science fiction authors, who think about the possible nature

41
00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 1: of the universe, the way it is, or the way

42
00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,600
Speaker 1: that it might be. And this is important not just

43
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,080
Speaker 1: for those of us who are curious about the deep

44
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 1: nature of the universe, how it's built from its time,

45
00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,200
Speaker 1: the organizing principle, and how this incredible the complexity and

46
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,799
Speaker 1: beauty emerges from the organization of those tiny little strings

47
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,320
Speaker 1: or pixels or whatever it is that the foundation of

48
00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,200
Speaker 1: the nature of reality. But it's also important to think

49
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,160
Speaker 1: about how to live in that universe, how our knowledge

50
00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,240
Speaker 1: of that physics and the technology that we build changes

51
00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,560
Speaker 1: our lives and changes how we treat each other. Who

52
00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,959
Speaker 1: is deserving of our respect, who earns rights, and who

53
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,640
Speaker 1: gets self determination. Think about, for example, how differently you

54
00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,160
Speaker 1: view the universe than somebody did who lived a hundred

55
00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,280
Speaker 1: years ago, or a thousand years ago or ten thousand

56
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,720
Speaker 1: years ago. They knew so much less about the nature

57
00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,080
Speaker 1: of our reality and our place in it. That surely

58
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,600
Speaker 1: affected the way they lived, the way they thought of themselves,

59
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,640
Speaker 1: and the way they treat each other. In the same way,

60
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,960
Speaker 1: you might imagine somebody looking back on us in a

61
00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,360
Speaker 1: hundred years, in a thousand years, in ten thousand years

62
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,600
Speaker 1: and thinking about our shocking ignorance about the basic nature

63
00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,360
Speaker 1: of the universe. After all, there are huge questions that

64
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,560
Speaker 1: we still do not know the answer to. What is

65
00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,000
Speaker 1: space after all? Why does time only flow forwards? Why

66
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,960
Speaker 1: is the universe continuing to expand and accelerate its expansion.

67
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,880
Speaker 1: What happened to the beginning of the universe. These basic

68
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,479
Speaker 1: questions should inform the context of our lives, and yet

69
00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,039
Speaker 1: we are totally clueless about their answers. And in a

70
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,120
Speaker 1: hundred years or ten thousand years, people might, at least

71
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,080
Speaker 1: I hope they will have some insight into the nature

72
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,680
Speaker 1: of these questions, which will flesh out for them the

73
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,960
Speaker 1: context of the human experience, what it means to be

74
00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,159
Speaker 1: human and what it means to be human in this universe.

75
00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 1: And those folks will look back at us, they will

76
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,159
Speaker 1: wonder what it was like to be so ignorant, to

77
00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,680
Speaker 1: be as clueless as we are, and they might have

78
00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,640
Speaker 1: trouble understanding the choices that we make about how we

79
00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,159
Speaker 1: live our lives and how we treat each other, specific lee,

80
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,920
Speaker 1: how we treat other beings which may or may not

81
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,279
Speaker 1: be senttioned. That includes animals and includes artificial intelligence. So

82
00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 1: today on the podcast, we're gonna be continuing a series

83
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,000
Speaker 1: of conversations with science fiction authors about the universes they

84
00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 1: created and what that means about our universe and how

85
00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:28,359
Speaker 1: to live in it. So today on the podcast the

86
00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 1: Science Fiction Universe of S. B. Divia as me. Diva

87
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,599
Speaker 1: is a geek. She is a nerd, just like me.

88
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,960
Speaker 1: She went to cal Tech the age of sixteen. She

89
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,640
Speaker 1: is an expert in AI and in data science and

90
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,080
Speaker 1: in neuroscience, and she has written a book called Machine Hood.

91
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,640
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating novel that explores what it's like to

92
00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,920
Speaker 1: be a machine and how society should treat machines and

93
00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,920
Speaker 1: how we formulate questions of respect and rights and sort

94
00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,160
Speaker 1: of the structure of society to accommodate different kind end

95
00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,800
Speaker 1: of sension beings. I read this book recently and I

96
00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,839
Speaker 1: thought it was very well written, beautifully crafted, with some

97
00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,159
Speaker 1: really good characters and a thrilling plot. It's sort of

98
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,400
Speaker 1: cyberpunk and very exciting, and I totally recommend those of

99
00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,719
Speaker 1: you who are interested in science fiction and seem to

100
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 1: enjoy the same kinds of science fiction that I like

101
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,680
Speaker 1: to go out and pick it up. And so today

102
00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,680
Speaker 1: we'll be digging into this book and I have a

103
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 1: nice interview with the author at the end of the podcast.

104
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,599
Speaker 1: All right, so let's break it down. First. Let me

105
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,720
Speaker 1: tell you what the book is about, and then I'll

106
00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,000
Speaker 1: dig into the science of it a little bit, and

107
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,640
Speaker 1: then we'll talk to the author. So first, what is

108
00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,239
Speaker 1: this book. It's called Machine Hood, and it takes place

109
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,080
Speaker 1: in sort of the near future, approximately fifty years from now,

110
00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,680
Speaker 1: and it's on Earth. This is not a journey to

111
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,440
Speaker 1: some other weird imagined universe. It takes place right here

112
00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,440
Speaker 1: in our universe, following our laws of physics, and it

113
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,440
Speaker 1: sort of extrapolates cleverly where we are now to what

114
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,480
Speaker 1: the future might be like. And there's a few aspects

115
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 1: that are really key to the structure of the novel

116
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 1: and the ideas that it fleshes out. And the first

117
00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,600
Speaker 1: one is, of course, artificial intelligence in the future. In

118
00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,600
Speaker 1: her book, artificial intelligence is everywhere, but it's a sort

119
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,080
Speaker 1: of weak AI. It's the kind of AI that can't

120
00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,640
Speaker 1: answer your questions. It can help you with things, it

121
00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,280
Speaker 1: can order things for you, it can analyze data and

122
00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,600
Speaker 1: summarize it for you in a way that humans can

123
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,560
Speaker 1: make sense of, and that's already very, very powerful. But

124
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,760
Speaker 1: the distinction she makes in her book is that while

125
00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 1: these AI are powerful and intelligent, they are not self aware.

126
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 1: They're not conscious, they're not sentient, they're not having a

127
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,040
Speaker 1: first person subjective experience in the way that you are,

128
00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,800
Speaker 1: I hope and the way that I know that I

129
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,000
Speaker 1: am like they cart was. So this is an important

130
00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,600
Speaker 1: topic in her book, and the question really of the

131
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,160
Speaker 1: book is can AI become self aware? Not just intelligent,

132
00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,000
Speaker 1: not just effective, not just good at solving problems, but

133
00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,400
Speaker 1: can it actually have a first person experience? And if

134
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,680
Speaker 1: it does, how should we treat it? What rights does

135
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,560
Speaker 1: it deserve in that case? And will it be angry

136
00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,960
Speaker 1: at the way that we've been treating it. So that's

137
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 1: really the deepest sort of science angle to the book

138
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,160
Speaker 1: is extrampolining a onto the future and wondering how much

139
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,760
Speaker 1: further it can go and the impact on society. But

140
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of other really cool near future tech.

141
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,200
Speaker 1: My favorite near future sci fi stories are the ones

142
00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,560
Speaker 1: where the author really has thought about where technology could go,

143
00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,800
Speaker 1: what might be possible. And I think this must be

144
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,280
Speaker 1: like really rich territory for you know, venture capitalists or

145
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,720
Speaker 1: researchers trying to think about what they should work on next.

146
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,520
Speaker 1: I mean, books like this are just loaded with clever

147
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,320
Speaker 1: ideas for what we should try to make. And in

148
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,280
Speaker 1: this book, the author has gone sort of beyond cyborg ism,

149
00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 1: where people are like strapping machines onto their bodies or

150
00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,920
Speaker 1: replacing their arms with machines, and instead she sort of

151
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,439
Speaker 1: internalized this cyborder approach. Rather than replacing your body with

152
00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,640
Speaker 1: a machine, you swallow these mini machines they call pills.

153
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,520
Speaker 1: And these things can make you stronger, or they can

154
00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,320
Speaker 1: make you think faster, or they can help you recover

155
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,760
Speaker 1: from injuries much more quickly. And she's really worked this

156
00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,080
Speaker 1: out in gory detail. You know, she has really microscopic

157
00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,000
Speaker 1: understandings of how these things might work and what they

158
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,720
Speaker 1: would do to yourselves, and it's really quite plausible, frankly,

159
00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,720
Speaker 1: and her background in the science and understanding the details

160
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,199
Speaker 1: really comes through. Something that's really cool in her novel

161
00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,240
Speaker 1: also is that these things do not require like massive

162
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,760
Speaker 1: factories to build. You can download the instructions and print

163
00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,240
Speaker 1: them at home in your kitchen. So you want to

164
00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,880
Speaker 1: be smart for the afternoon, you print this flow pill

165
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,640
Speaker 1: and you'd swallow it and you're just much smarter for

166
00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,920
Speaker 1: the whole afternoon. So it's really super fascinating. And then

167
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,360
Speaker 1: I think maybe the last major element of this future

168
00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,599
Speaker 1: society it makes it different from ours, is the omnipresence

169
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:08,760
Speaker 1: of surveillance. So she has cameras everywhere, these tiny little

170
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,520
Speaker 1: drones with cameras on them. They are literally everywhere. Every

171
00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 1: moment of your life could be filmed and streamed online,

172
00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,120
Speaker 1: which means shockingly, of course, that there's basically no privacy couples,

173
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,560
Speaker 1: intimate evenings, what you're doing in the bathroom, your afternoon

174
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,720
Speaker 1: on the couch, there could always be a micro drone

175
00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,120
Speaker 1: somewhere filming you. So there's this future society where life

176
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,800
Speaker 1: is really very different, but not in a totally alien way.

177
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:35,560
Speaker 1: When you read this book, you don't feel like, I

178
00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,680
Speaker 1: don't recognize that society. Instead, you see echoes of our society.

179
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,559
Speaker 1: It's just taken an extrapolated and exaggerated for effect. So

180
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,880
Speaker 1: I think she can make some sort of social commentary

181
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,720
Speaker 1: on what it's like to be human today and whether

182
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 1: we like the way it's going towards the future. So

183
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,080
Speaker 1: let me comment a little bit on the science of

184
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,920
Speaker 1: this story, like, is it robust, does it make sense?

185
00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 1: Has she taken some liberties over all? I was really impressed.

186
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,400
Speaker 1: I think she has thought about this stuff deeply and clearly.

187
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,000
Speaker 1: She knows what she's doing. She is not writing in

188
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,640
Speaker 1: an area where she's not an expert. She's a neuroscientist,

189
00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,760
Speaker 1: she is a developer. She knows all about AI. So

190
00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,319
Speaker 1: she has thought about this stuff very carefully. But there

191
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 1: are some wrinkles here that are hard. You know, there

192
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 1: are some questions here that science just doesn't know the

193
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,000
Speaker 1: answer to, especially the ones around sentience. We don't even

194
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:30,000
Speaker 1: really know what it means when we talk about consciousness.

195
00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,640
Speaker 1: This is a question not necessarily of science, but of philosophy.

196
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,520
Speaker 1: You know, they call it the hard question of consciousness

197
00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,559
Speaker 1: is understanding how another being, an object that's just made

198
00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,240
Speaker 1: out of particles or tying little pieces can come together

199
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,840
Speaker 1: to somehow have a first persons subjective experience. So, for

200
00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,079
Speaker 1: those of you who are not into philosophy of science,

201
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 1: this this concept of the philosophical zombie, that's an object

202
00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,520
Speaker 1: or a creature which acts sentiented act, it's like it's

203
00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 1: having a first person experience tells you that it is

204
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,640
Speaker 1: but actually isn't. And the whole construction, the whole idea

205
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,120
Speaker 1: of this philosophical zombie is to make the point that

206
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,080
Speaker 1: there is no way to tell the difference. Right, a

207
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,319
Speaker 1: real person who is actually having a first person experience

208
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,240
Speaker 1: who's in there or who's feeling these things, can't say

209
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,560
Speaker 1: anything or do anything to convince you that they're having

210
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,800
Speaker 1: that experience that the philosophical zombie can't also do. So

211
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,520
Speaker 1: the point is that there's no way to know whether

212
00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,120
Speaker 1: somebody really in there or not other than actually being

213
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 1: in there. That's the foundation of this question. Also that

214
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,440
Speaker 1: in one of the most famous philosophy papers of all time,

215
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,320
Speaker 1: it's called what's it like to be a bat? And

216
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,680
Speaker 1: it's not a joke. It really is asking that question,

217
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,280
Speaker 1: and the answer is will never know, because we'll never

218
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,640
Speaker 1: be that bad. And the point is larger than that.

219
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,400
Speaker 1: It's that we'll never know what it's like to be

220
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,800
Speaker 1: another person. So we have the ability to empathize with

221
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,400
Speaker 1: other folks, to understand to imagine what it might be

222
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,600
Speaker 1: like to be them, but we don't actually know what's

223
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,600
Speaker 1: in them. So there's this deep question of where consciousness

224
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,400
Speaker 1: comes from. I mean, if my consciousness is somehow emergent

225
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,840
Speaker 1: just from like the interactions of my particles coming together

226
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,320
Speaker 1: in this complex structure we call human brain. Then surely

227
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,600
Speaker 1: that should also be possible for other people's brains, which

228
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,199
Speaker 1: means that it should be possible in theory for artificial

229
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,480
Speaker 1: brains that if you put together somehow a set of

230
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,480
Speaker 1: particles that operate the way a brain does, in principle,

231
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,240
Speaker 1: it could also be self aware, not just hard working,

232
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:38,079
Speaker 1: not just smart, not just intelligent, but actually self aware,

233
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,760
Speaker 1: capable of a real experience, capable maybe even of suffering,

234
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,040
Speaker 1: of feeling joy, of feeling love, of feeling whatever the

235
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:51,079
Speaker 1: first person experience is of that intelligence. It's connected to

236
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,040
Speaker 1: this other question you might imagine, like if you scan

237
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,480
Speaker 1: your brain and uploaded it to a computer that was

238
00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,040
Speaker 1: able to simulate your brain, so I had exactly the

239
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,880
Speaker 1: same sort of information content as your brain, would that

240
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,360
Speaker 1: simulated version of your brain also be self aware? These

241
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,840
Speaker 1: are really deep questions we just don't know the answer to.

242
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,400
Speaker 1: Is consciousness embedded in the relationship between the objects and

243
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,880
Speaker 1: the information that's being passed around inside your brain or

244
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,040
Speaker 1: is it closely connected to the actual wet wear, like

245
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,480
Speaker 1: the brainy part of your brain, In which case, why

246
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,200
Speaker 1: is that and what is it about the brain that

247
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,640
Speaker 1: would make it so? And isn't it possible to reproduce

248
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,160
Speaker 1: it somehow in other materials. These are things we just

249
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 1: don't know the answers to. People are sort of feeling

250
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,120
Speaker 1: their way around in the dark and trying to come

251
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,720
Speaker 1: up with ways to tackle these questions. So there's nothing

252
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,200
Speaker 1: in this book which is incorrect scientifically. It's just that

253
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,640
Speaker 1: it dives into a really difficult question philosophically that we

254
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,760
Speaker 1: might not ever be able to know the answer to scientifically. Remember,

255
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 1: not every question you ask about the universe is a

256
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,160
Speaker 1: science question, because not every question can be answered scientifically.

257
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,320
Speaker 1: In order probe the question of consciousness, it might be

258
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,240
Speaker 1: required to step out of a conscious observer, or to

259
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 1: move from one to the other to compare and contrast

260
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,400
Speaker 1: their experiences, which is not something that an observer can do.

261
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,680
Speaker 1: So it's not even clear to me whether this hard

262
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,400
Speaker 1: question of consciousness is a scientific one or will always

263
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,840
Speaker 1: be a philosophical one that we argue about forever. Now,

264
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,160
Speaker 1: the rest of the science in her book is really

265
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,280
Speaker 1: very robust. All of this near future tech is worked

266
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,440
Speaker 1: out in gory detail. There's a lot of really fascinating

267
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,480
Speaker 1: ideas in there that frankly, I think scientists and engineers

268
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 1: and venture capital people should read and think about whether

269
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:37,560
Speaker 1: or not they want to get into that, whether or

270
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,920
Speaker 1: not it's a good idea. Something else I love about

271
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,680
Speaker 1: this book is that there are real scientists in it,

272
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,960
Speaker 1: scientists solving problems, scientists basing puzzles, having frustration, not always

273
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,920
Speaker 1: making progress, sometimes getting too sleepy. So she really knows

274
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 1: what she's talking about. I think she's done a great

275
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 1: job right in this book. It's compelling, it's got lots

276
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 1: of great characters in it. And in a minute when

277
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk to her about how she wrote this book,

278
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,360
Speaker 1: what's important to her, and what she thinks about some

279
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,600
Speaker 1: of these deep questions of the nature of consciousness. But

280
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 1: first let's take a quick break. All right, we're back

281
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,720
Speaker 1: and we are talking about the book Machine Hood by S. B. Devia,

282
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,280
Speaker 1: which has just come out recently, which I thoroughly enjoyed

283
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,600
Speaker 1: and recommend to you. The book is all about whether

284
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 1: it's possible to have artificial intelligence that actually is self aware,

285
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 1: and what that would mean for our society and how

286
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,880
Speaker 1: we should treat it. So, without further ado, here's my

287
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,240
Speaker 1: interview with the author. Alright, so thank you very much

288
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,400
Speaker 1: for joining me. It's my pleasure to introduce to our

289
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,480
Speaker 1: podcast as b Divia, author of Machine Hood, Say hello

290
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 1: to all of our listeners. Hello everyone, very happy to

291
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,640
Speaker 1: be here. Well, thanks very much for joining us and

292
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 1: for talking to us about your book. First, we have

293
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,480
Speaker 1: a set of questions that we ask every science fiction

294
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,000
Speaker 1: author to so to get them calibrated in our science

295
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 1: fiction universe. We love to hear first about how you

296
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,680
Speaker 1: got into science fiction writing. I know you have quite

297
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,800
Speaker 1: a background in like actual science and engineering. Tell us

298
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,280
Speaker 1: about how that happened for you. I started reading science

299
00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,119
Speaker 1: fiction when I was around the age of ten, and

300
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,320
Speaker 1: I did my first writing in my eighth grade English class,

301
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,520
Speaker 1: of all places, we had a little assignment in class

302
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 1: to write something short and then swap it with a

303
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 1: partner and critique each other's work. And of course, you know,

304
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 1: what I wrote was a little snippet of science fiction,

305
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,840
Speaker 1: and my friend who read it turned to me and said,

306
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,679
Speaker 1: this is great, but this is not a complete story.

307
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,760
Speaker 1: You have to write more. And so that kind of

308
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,960
Speaker 1: put me on the path of enjoying the writing part

309
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:02,119
Speaker 1: of science fiction for several years through my teenage years.

310
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,160
Speaker 1: Then a little thing called Caltech happened to me as

311
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,520
Speaker 1: an undergraduate. It's called drinking from a fire hose for

312
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,920
Speaker 1: a reason. And so I put aside my fiction habits.

313
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,479
Speaker 1: I think the only thing I read while there was

314
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,919
Speaker 1: Analog magazine, and you know, looked forward to getting that

315
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 1: in my school mailbox. That was my little treat. That's

316
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,119
Speaker 1: a very intense undergraduate experience, isn't It's a very small

317
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 1: community of students. Yes, it was fabulous and awful all

318
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,640
Speaker 1: at the same time. I would do it again if

319
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 1: I were sixteen again. I don't think I would do

320
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 1: it again at this stage in my life. It was

321
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,520
Speaker 1: a lot. But you went to Caltech at sixteen. I did. Yeah.

322
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,120
Speaker 1: My my parents were all freaked out, but we had

323
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,360
Speaker 1: good family friends nearby to look after me. And yeah,

324
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 1: I ended up moving between junior high and high school

325
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,400
Speaker 1: and skipped a grade because the high school I ended

326
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,120
Speaker 1: up at just didn't have enough stuff for me. I guess.

327
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 1: So all that happened, and I put aside my writing

328
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,320
Speaker 1: and fiction for a very long time, figuring, you know,

329
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 1: it was a nice dream. Maybe when I'm retired, like

330
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:17,119
Speaker 1: a focus on my engineering career first, that's where you know,

331
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 1: I made my money, and then sort of in my

332
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 1: mid thirties. I got way laid by a few factors,

333
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,760
Speaker 1: including a kid, losing a couple of friends to cancer,

334
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:28,800
Speaker 1: and it was all just kind of a big wake

335
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,400
Speaker 1: up call to maybe not defer my dream for twenty

336
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:39,240
Speaker 1: more years. And so I picked up the analog to

337
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,199
Speaker 1: a pen, which is the keyboard, and said, you know,

338
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:44,919
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to make a real go of

339
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,280
Speaker 1: it this time. I'm actually going to try to get

340
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,600
Speaker 1: something published, take a class, and really commit to myself

341
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 1: to try to turn this into something real and not

342
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,879
Speaker 1: just a little side hobby. So I got very lucky.

343
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 1: I published my first short story in two thousand and fourteen.

344
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 1: I had a short novel come out from Towards dot

345
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 1: com in two thousand and sixteen, and this past week,

346
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 1: Machine Hood, my first novel, is out. Very excited to

347
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 1: share that with the world. Well congrats. It's exciting for

348
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,080
Speaker 1: all those geeks out there to think that, you know,

349
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 1: there are opportunities to get into science fiction writing even

350
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 1: if you don't have a long background in literature. So

351
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,720
Speaker 1: that's always nice to hear people's stories. Yeah, for sure.

352
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,439
Speaker 1: So as a reader of science fiction, here's some questions

353
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,440
Speaker 1: for you by the science fiction genre is it your

354
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: opinion that a Star Trek transporter kills you and recreates

355
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 1: you somewhere else or actually transports your atoms? Like, is

356
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 1: it really a transporter or is it a slaughter and

357
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,479
Speaker 1: recreation machine. I'm pretty sure the Star Trek transporter is

358
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 1: a slaughter and recreation machine just by the way they

359
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 1: show it. There's never like a particle being sent somewhere,

360
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:02,919
Speaker 1: which is kind of what you'd have to do, and

361
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 1: you'd have to send it at warp speeds to get

362
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 1: you know, that much material of that far. So yeah, vaporized, rebuilt.

363
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 1: Very proud actually of Star Trek for taking that particular

364
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,880
Speaker 1: leap of faith, because I think it freaks a lot

365
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 1: of people out. And I have had many wonderful philosophical

366
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,919
Speaker 1: arguments with my friends on whether it matters whether the

367
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: thing that's recreated is you or really just a clone

368
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 1: of you because it's a different set of atoms. Never

369
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,120
Speaker 1: mind that we are all exchanging atoms with our environment

370
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 1: on a constant basis, and our bodies are renewing themselves continually,

371
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 1: so you know, we are rebuilt every so many years.

372
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 1: It's just happening very slowly. So then would you step

373
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 1: into a transporter, being totally comfortable with having your body

374
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 1: taken apart. You would do it. You would let the

375
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: machine kill you and rebuild you. I would do it.

376
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 1: I as long as the technology was safe and we

377
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,920
Speaker 1: had rebuilt other things. I wouldn't be an early adopter

378
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,719
Speaker 1: of it, okay, but once it was proven that I

379
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 1: wasn't going to just die along the way and stay dead,

380
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: I would absolutely step in. And I have no qualms. Well,

381
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,199
Speaker 1: it certainly would be convenient. Well, I'm a tourist. I

382
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 1: like to travel, so the idea of having a teleporter

383
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: or transporter make travel easier is just way too tempting.

384
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: It's like I want to see the universe as much

385
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: as possible. Totally agree. I love to be other places.

386
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: I don't actually enjoy traveling, and so getting there without

387
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 1: the traveling part, Wow, that'd be nice. Speaking of technological advancements,

388
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 1: what other kind of technology do you see in science

389
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 1: fiction that you'd like to actually have become a reality.

390
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 1: If you could pick one thing from the science fiction

391
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: universe and make it real from cannon, just one, that's tough.

392
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: I think the most useful, at least initially, would probably

393
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: be the answable the ability to communicate instantly across long distances,

394
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: because once we have that communication channel available, we can

395
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: do a lot more with it in terms of sending

396
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: data back and forth, gathering that data, and you know,

397
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: deploying ourselves further afield, even just within our solar system,

398
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: and having more immediate control and interactivity with those environments.

399
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: Because you want to drive the Mars rover in real time, yeah,

400
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 1: think about it though. If we had a real time

401
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 1: remote operable vehicle, we can directly interact with the controls,

402
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: collect samples, you know, react to environmental changes. And that's

403
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: a big struggle right now, right is that we've got

404
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 1: to send robots. And our robots, you know, are very

405
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: sophisticated by our current stand words, but they're still a

406
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 1: long way from being truly sophisticated and autonomous. So the

407
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: next best thing is human remote control. It's just that

408
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 1: lag is killer, all right. Then, one more question before

409
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: we dig into your novel. What's your personal answer to

410
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,959
Speaker 1: the Fermi paradox. Given the number of likely habitable worlds

411
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 1: out there and the vastness of the universe, why haven't

412
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 1: aliens visited us or contacted us the same exact actually

413
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: reason that I like the answervill, which is it takes

414
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: light time to travel across vast descisances, and even though

415
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: there is probably plenty of life out there, much of

416
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: it is not a advanced enough to send you know,

417
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: extra solar communications and then be we've got to wait

418
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: for that extra solar communication to show up. See, we

419
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: have to recognize it amidst all the other signals we're

420
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 1: dealing with, and d we have to then be able

421
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: to capture it and interpret it. So that's a lot

422
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: of steps that add decreasing you know, probability that we're

423
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: actually going to get that communication. So given enough time,

424
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: if humanity manages to last for millions of years and

425
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 1: continues to build our technology, we probably will eventually find

426
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: some signals. If we're lucky enough that some other life

427
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 1: form is concurrently you know, across the span of light

428
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: years in those delays, at that same level of technology

429
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: sending something over, we'll get it. But the thing that

430
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: science fiction love is that these things should be synchronous,

431
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: that we can communicate back and forth. But of course

432
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: it's going to be deeply asynchronous communication and for all

433
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: we know, by the time our signal reaches them were

434
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: extinct or vice versa. Right, So we're not gonna be

435
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: swapping text messages with anyone anytime soon, even though that's

436
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: what we all want. Not without your answer, will at

437
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 1: least and imagine how long it would take to learn

438
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: to decode their language. You know, if it takes twenty

439
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: years between sending a question and getting an answer, it's

440
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 1: hard enough to decode ancient human languages, you know, just

441
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: a few thousand years old. So I hope we do

442
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: get messages from aliens, but I'd be amazed if we

443
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: ever understood them. All right, So then let's dive into

444
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: your novel, which I read and very much enjoy. Congratulations.

445
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: It's such a fascinating and complex but also very realistic story.

446
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: You really feel the characters and they feel like they

447
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: really live in that universe, which it was an accomplishment

448
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: to me. Your book raises a lot of interesting and

449
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: important questions about how technology changes the pattern of our life,

450
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: how we treat each other, and who deserves what kind

451
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: of treatment, what kind of rites? So what intrigues you

452
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: about these themes? Why did you decide to write a

453
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 1: book about these kinds of topics and create this kind

454
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: of world for your characters. There's probably a few factors

455
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: from going to dive into my personal psychology and unearthed

456
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: what try as me to write these stories. I've always

457
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: been fascinated by the philosophy of mind. One of the

458
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: reasons I switched from being on the astrophysics track to

459
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: the computational neuroscience track was that I felt like the brain,

460
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: in some ways, especially in terms of mind, was more

461
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: unknown than parts of our own universe, and it was

462
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: equally interesting to kind of delve into those questions and ideas.

463
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: And that intersected with my more practical engineering technology career,

464
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: which was in pattern recognition, machine learning, and signal processing,

465
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: and looking at, especially in the last five years, the

466
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 1: conversations people have been having in Silicon Valley in terms

467
00:27:54,200 --> 00:28:01,479
Speaker 1: of AI and automation and life, and then also drawing on,

468
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: you know, the tropes of science fiction, both in terms

469
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: of literature and film and its portrayal of artificial intelligence

470
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: versus the reality of what we were actually developing in

471
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: labs and at corporations. All of that kind of mashed

472
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: up with general human history. The fact that you know,

473
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: I come from India, which was colonized and I live

474
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 1: in America, which has this history of slavery, and you know,

475
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: the kind of the social factors of how we treat

476
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: each other. I grew up vegetarian, how we treat animals,

477
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: you know, climate change and how we treat the environment.

478
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: I think all of these things kind of collided to

479
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: form the themes of machine hood and really examining these

480
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: questions of what makes something human sentient deserving of rights

481
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: and detections. Thank you. These are really fascinating questions, difficult

482
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: philosophically and scientifically. So what is your personal opinion. I mean,

483
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,479
Speaker 1: if we are able to create intelligent AI that's at

484
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: the level of humanity, do you think it deserves the

485
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: same rights? Like should it be illegal to turn it off?

486
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: I think we have to separate intelligence from consciousness and sentience.

487
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: Intelligence is actually easier in some ways to define because

488
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: we can at least model capability and reactivity to stimuli,

489
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: you know, the ability to solve problems and adapt to

490
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: your environment. These are at least the hallmarks of machine

491
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: intelligence right now. And you know, a large part of

492
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: what we know about human beings, we can't necessarily quantify

493
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: our intelligence levels. I don't buy into I Q stuff,

494
00:29:54,840 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: but we can at least simulate it and recreate it

495
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: in you know, digital and artificial formats sentience and consciousness. However,

496
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: we don't have as good of a grasp on yet, right.

497
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: Neuroscientists are still struggling with that. Philosophers are struggling with that,

498
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: trying to just define what it means much less, you know,

499
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: come up with models that are predictive and ways in

500
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: which we can quantify it. So until we do that,

501
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: I think the machines we build are going to be

502
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: increasingly intelligent in that they will be capable of solving

503
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: very complex problems. They'll be able to handle increasingly complex situations.

504
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: But are they self aware enough to develop the desire

505
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: for rights without us specifically coding that into them? I

506
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: don't know. And then I think that raises a bigger

507
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: ethical question of do we code it into them? And

508
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: if so, you know, what are the ramifications of that, right, Like,

509
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: why would we code that into them? And once we do,

510
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: then I think, yeah, we do have some ethical obligations

511
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: to treat them as if they were life, because they

512
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 1: can't help it, especially if it's in their hardware like

513
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: it is with us. Write the desire for survival, the

514
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: desire for selfhood. So I do think we're gonna have

515
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: to start tackling these questions, not maybe in the next

516
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: few decades, but you know, within the next century or two,

517
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: we're going to get to that level of complexity where

518
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't matter that they're not conscious in the

519
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: way that we're conscious, that they behave in a manner

520
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: sufficiently similar that the distinction doesn't matter anymore. And that's

521
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: really the crux of machine hood. And I don't know

522
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: if I personally have a strong answer yet. I really

523
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: wrote the book to kind of explore the question in

524
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: my own mind, and I can see myself being swayed

525
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: in either direction to ending on the nuances. But ultimately,

526
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: I think it's a reflection of ethics in terms of

527
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: how we treat each other, and like said, how we

528
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: treat the world around us. And if we can respect

529
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: ourselves and other human beings, if we can respect our planet,

530
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: then why shouldn't we also respect these intelligent machines that

531
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: we're building. I was struck at some point early in

532
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: the novel when one of your characters asks herselves the question,

533
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: maybe the creation of consciousness is not possible, right, Like,

534
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: maybe we can build systems that can solve hard problems

535
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: and do things and be helpful as the week AI

536
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: are in your novel, but are not actually conscious. But

537
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: my question for you is, how do we know when

538
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: you talk about a being that simulates the experience of

539
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: being conscious, But when we always run into the problem

540
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: of the philosophical zombie, something which seems to be conscious

541
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: but we can't ever tell of it actually is. Me,

542
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're conscious, for example, what I

543
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: take it onto faith? How do we know when our

544
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: machines have reached that level? That really is the question.

545
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: And I do think at some point, if we can

546
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: figure out the underpinnings of our own consciousness, that's how

547
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: we'll know. Right, if we can get to the biophysics

548
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: of whatever consciousness is, how we have it ourselves? What

549
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: gives us degrees of consciousness? Right? Not so much amongst humans,

550
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: but when we look at you know, other animals, mammals

551
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: all the way down to insects and then eventually plants,

552
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: You know, what is it in life that brings forth

553
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: consciousness at all these sort of varying degrees? Right? Obviously

554
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: there is a spectrum or at least to me, it's

555
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: obvious that there's a spectrum of consciousness, So that indicates

556
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: to me that there is some underlying physical structure. I

557
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: am fundamentally a physicalist. I don't believe in the soul.

558
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't believe in something, you know, beyond matter and energy.

559
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: I am very intrigued by the idea of panpsychism that

560
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: consciousness maybe is an inherent property of the matter and

561
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: energy in our universe, and when it hits certain types

562
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: of configurations, that's when we get the emergent property of

563
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: what we experience as consciousness. And so if we can really,

564
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: you know, get to the bottom of all that, get

565
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,479
Speaker 1: to the physics of all that, and understand it enough

566
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: to model it and predict it that, Hey, if we

567
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: build this it's going to behave like a beatle in

568
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: terms of its level of consciousness, then I think we

569
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: are on the path to knowing when the really complex

570
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: intelligent machine has also developed consciousness, because then we can

571
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: measure or it. And until then I'm gonna still go

572
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 1: for Maybe it doesn't matter. It looks like a duck,

573
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck.

574
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: Maybe we should just treat it like a duck, even

575
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: if we don't see that it has duck DNA. At

576
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it gets defined by our

577
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 1: interactions with the intelligent machine, just like our interactions with

578
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: our air quality and you know, water quality and everything

579
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: else that's inanimate that we still need to interact with

580
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: in order to survive and live and pass through the world.

581
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: If we're going to interact with these highly intelligent, sophisticated

582
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: robots or pieces of software, then we're going to feel

583
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,479
Speaker 1: emotions about them. You know, our sentience and our own

584
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: consciousness is going to have us react to them in

585
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: specific ways. And that might be sufficient of a line

586
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: to say that, Yeah, at this point, we need to

587
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: give these intelligent machines some level of protection so that

588
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: they're not exploited, because that then reflects on how we

589
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: treat them and how we treat ourselves. Yeah, that's really insightful.

590
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 1: It's a lot about our emotional response since we have

591
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 1: no actual heart evidence of anybody else's consciousness. But speaking

592
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: of you know, speaking like a duck and talking like

593
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: a duck, let's think about how we treat ducks or

594
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: other animals. Right, If you imagine that these animals are centered.

595
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: The chickens and pigs are ascentioned and have emotions and experience.

596
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: We don't treat them very well. We raise them in

597
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: factories and slaughter them for food. There's a difference between

598
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: what we understand intellectually to be the rights or the

599
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: experience of a creature and how our society is constructed

600
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: to respect those or not. As as you mentioned earlier,

601
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed in your novels a lot of those

602
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: nuances for how society is built, sometimes on flawed premises.

603
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: Do you think that would be a difficult transition for us,

604
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: say we come to this emotional realization, do you think

605
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: there will still be people who say, well, yes, maybe

606
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: they feel something, but whatever, you know, they still don't

607
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: deserve rights. For sure. That's definitely one of the points

608
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: of the book is that when it benefits us to

609
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: think that way, there will be a lot of people

610
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: pushing to continue to think that way, and we have

611
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: only to look at like you said, factory farming. You know,

612
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: people know that animals are sentient. I don't think there's

613
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: much of a question there at this point that they

614
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: are at least somewhat self aware that there are certainly

615
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: living creatures who feel pain, who feel emotions, who feel attachments,

616
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: who can develop their own sorts of language and communications.

617
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: Everything we learn about animals points to them being a

618
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: lot more sophisticated than we often give them credit for. Similarly,

619
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: if we can enslave the machines and use them for

620
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: labor without having to give them time off, without having

621
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: to compensate them in any way, we're going to do it.

622
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: You know, it's to our benefit, right, So it's going

623
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: to be a struggle to convince those who benefit from

624
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: that to give that up, just like it was a

625
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: struggle to give up slavery, right, just like it continues

626
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 1: to be a struggle for a lot of people to

627
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: acknowledge that life doesn't have to be a ZR sum game,

628
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: that the only way they can gain is if somebody

629
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: else loses. And I don't believe that to be the case,

630
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: because we don't really live in that closed of a

631
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: system at this point. I think we can all gain,

632
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: and we've already shown that, so there's no reason we

633
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 1: can't continue to expand that particular ethos in human society.

634
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: It's just that it does go against a lot of

635
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: people's human nature. I won't say everyone. I think there

636
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: are you know, vast segments of society that are altruistic

637
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,879
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, that are willing to sacrifice

638
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: immediate or personal gain for a larger good, whether it's

639
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: family or society. So I think it comes down to

640
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: what we cultivate, and I think we're seeing that shift already,

641
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: right to plant based proteins. We've got beyond meat and

642
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 1: impossible workers and all of these things, partly just for

643
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: ecological and economic reasons, right, that pressure has gotten to

644
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 1: the point where people are willing to trade off animal

645
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: meat for plant based proteins. But also I think more

646
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: people have become aware of these ethical quandaries, right, that

647
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: many of these animals are not well treated for their

648
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: entire lives, were pumping them full of hormones and chemicals,

649
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: that maybe this is not the right way to move

650
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: into our future. Well, I noticed in your book it's

651
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: not just a question of how many rights we give

652
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: the AI, but also the humans. In your book, you're

653
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: always having a great time. I mean, their life is

654
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: not very secure. They've work in these gig jobs, they

655
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: have to modify their bodies and take you know, personal risks.

656
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: They've essentially no privacy. It's not like a future that

657
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: I would be excited to live in. Necessarily enjoyed reading

658
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: the book, but I wouldn't want to be in it.

659
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: So did you intend it to be dystopian? I didn't

660
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 1: intend it to be any more dystopian than our lives today.

661
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: I intended it to be, you know, a plausible extrapolation

662
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: of trends that are happening. And granted, these are fairly

663
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: linear projections of these trends, and you know, I'm sure

664
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: there will be disruptions. I don't believe that this is

665
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: going to be our future, but I wanted to examine

666
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: these particular aspects of the present, which I think a

667
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: lot of near science fiction future does. It's really not

668
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: about the future. It's about what we're dealing with today,

669
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: the concerns of today, and kind of projecting those forward

670
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: that if we don't do anything about these trends, here's

671
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: where we might end up. And if you don't like that,

672
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: then now is the time to start making changes to

673
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: ensure that that's not our future. I think true dystopian stories,

674
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: you know, carry these sorts of trends to great extremes.

675
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: That are implausible but are there. From a sort of

676
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: polemical standpoint to illustrate a very specific point, I don't

677
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: think the future and machine Hood is that bad. There

678
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: are good things to balance out the negatives, and you know,

679
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people in the past several years

680
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 1: who feel like we are currently inhabiting a dystopia and

681
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: we're living through it. From that standpoint, yeah, I don't

682
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: think the Machine had future is anymore dystopic than you know,

683
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: the one that we're inhabiting. So if that's your feeling,

684
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 1: then it's like, okay, look around you and think about

685
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: where we've ended up today and how we've allowed ourselves

686
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 1: to get here. Now, I had this feeling of like

687
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: uber drivers driving late to the night, drinking red Bull constantly.

688
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: Sort of definitely had that feeling. All right, this is

689
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 1: a super fun conversation and I have lots more questions,

690
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 1: but first let's take a quick break. All right, we're

691
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 1: back from break and we are talking to the author

692
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: sp Diva about her novel Machine Hood. I noticed on

693
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: your website you have this line that says, I am

694
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: currently mortal and full of squishy organs, but I hope

695
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: to outlive that, and that made me wonder if you

696
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 1: were like looking forward to embracing the sort of post

697
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: biological future. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I am not afraid

698
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 1: of immortality. There's a lot of things I want to do.

699
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: I like to learn stuff, I like to dabble, and

700
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: I love seeking new experiences and knowledge. So the greatest

701
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: sorrow in my life is that I don't get to

702
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: live to see the future, which is of course an

703
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,720
Speaker 1: impossible thing to do unless you're immortal, then you always

704
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: get to live to see the future. And I also

705
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: find that this argument that you know natural is best

706
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: to be very flawed because natural has occurred by random

707
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: chance and over long periods of natural selection. It's worked

708
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: out pretty well, but it's not necessarily optimal. I'm enough

709
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: of an engineer to kind of look at our physiological

710
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 1: systems and go, yeah, but you know, we could tweak

711
00:43:55,440 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: this and make it better. So from that standpoint, I

712
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: would certainly like my artificial knees and elbows and back,

713
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 1: you know, to be less painful in my old age,

714
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: to avoid neuro degeneration, to have the brain of a

715
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: twenty five year old forever, you know, at my peak

716
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: performance of my frontal cortex and everything else, because why not,

717
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: right if you could have it and it's not born

718
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 1: so much from I want to be superhuman as again,

719
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: I just want to be able to live life to

720
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 1: my fullest as long as I possibly can, because I'm

721
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: desperately curious about everything. Well, that's definitely something we understand

722
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: on this podcast. We want to know the secrets to

723
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: the universe, and we want to learn what scientists are

724
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: going to learn in the next hundred five hundred thousand years.

725
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: Let's dig into the details of that a little bit,

726
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: if you don't mind. In your novel, the people take

727
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: these pills you call them their zips and flows and

728
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: buffs and jew ers that give you specific enhancement, and

729
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: you really have worked them out in gory details, like

730
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: what they actually do inside the body. What's the origin

731
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: of these ideas? Are these like actual research projects you

732
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: wanted to work on, Not necessarily that I wanted to

733
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: work on, but things that I have seen poking around

734
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: science news that I find utterly fascinating. And also I

735
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: wanted to take one of the favorite aspects of science fiction,

736
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: one that I myself wrote about in my novella run Time,

737
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: which is the cyborg and the visualization of you know,

738
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: a mechanized human being with like these big bulky exoskeletons

739
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: and you know, hydraulics and gears and all the stuff

740
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: that comes with mechanical systems, and turn that on its

741
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: head and say, can we have a cyborg that looks

742
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 1: human from the outside? Completely human? You have no idea.

743
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: They're not superpowers, it's not magic, but it's that same

744
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: biotechnology as ministerization, because honestly, who wants to wander around

745
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: in a bunch of bulky exoskeleton gear? Right that's not

746
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: very comfortable looking from what I can tell, you know,

747
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: it makes it harder to fit into those airline seats.

748
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: Just it's no good. Everyone can take a pill, you know,

749
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: you's like tear the fabric. Things keep breaking. It seems

750
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: terribly inconvenient to me. So on the other hand, you know,

751
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: we have people in labs today developing micro machines that

752
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: you can swallow, that will track through your colon, that

753
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: can be externally controlled via magnetics, and that are also

754
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: somewhat autonomous, right they you know, that's lovely like oregamy

755
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: unfolding structures and right now, because it's a pill and

756
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: it goes through your gut. That's kind of the only

757
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: place where really able to use this, and it's still

758
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: not being done in medicine, but I can see this

759
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:08,919
Speaker 1: technology moving forward, you know, in fifty years, to nanoscale

760
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: things that can cross into your blood stream, that can

761
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: cross your blood brain barrier, that can sit there and

762
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 1: do really interesting things within your body, working in concert

763
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 1: with your inherent biochemistry and physiological systems. Two. Then tweak

764
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 1: little things that you know, can maybe like in the book,

765
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: speed up clotting and healing of the skin, or you know,

766
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 1: bypass nerve conduction for faster communications, maybe change the state

767
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: of your brain so that you can focus your attention

768
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 1: on something a little better. You know. Again, not superpowers,

769
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: because I don't think that's very realistic, but enough that

770
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: it's going to be beneficial, especially when we're trying to

771
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: keep up with these highly intelligent systems that are working

772
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: at you know, gig your hurts and terror hurts speeds,

773
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 1: and are going to become increasingly complex going forward. And

774
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: then I threw some capitalism in there, because a everyone's

775
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: got to make money, right, like, nothing in life is free.

776
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: So these pills because you have to take them, and

777
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: they're small, and they're in your body, they're going to

778
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: break down, they're going to be cleaned out by your

779
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: own bodies garbage collection systems and flushed away. So you've

780
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: got to keep taking more pills. And who doesn't want that,

781
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: because that's a great way, you know, for the pill

782
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: designers to make their money. Make money on the ink, right,

783
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 1: not the printer. Yeah. Always. I worked for a medical

784
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: device company where I learned that lesson. You know, the

785
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: business model is always give away the razor charge for

786
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: the blades, right, same thing with the printers. So same

787
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: thing with this. You can print your smart pills at

788
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 1: home in your kitchen, but you've got to keep downloading

789
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: new design in every day or every week, and so

790
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: that's what you're paying for, and the pills keep getting

791
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 1: fleshed out of your system, so of course you're going

792
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: to want the latest and greatest on a daily basis. Well,

793
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: another thing I really enjoyed about your book was that

794
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: you had real science puzzles in there. You get things

795
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 1: going on that the characters didn't understand, and then they

796
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: were using their science brain to try to unravel the mystery.

797
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,879
Speaker 1: And that's not something you see very often in science fiction.

798
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: Usually it's here's a new technology, let's use it to

799
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: kill people, or how's it change or society or whatever.

800
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: But like the actual process of science, the detective mystery

801
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: of false paths and frustration and limited resources, you know,

802
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: the things that some of us actually live, you don't

803
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,359
Speaker 1: see that captured very often in science fiction. So, first

804
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: of all, just kudos on capturing that. But sort of narratively,

805
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 1: why did you want to show that in your story?

806
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: Why did you decide to include like this actual scientific

807
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: method as part of the story for your character. For

808
00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: exactly that reason, I do feel like in older science fiction,

809
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:06,320
Speaker 1: you know, from the forties and fifties especially, scientists were

810
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: often the heroes or the protagonists and occasionally got to

811
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: do actual science as part of the stories. The problem

812
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: to me in those old science fiction stories is the

813
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: scientists were very sort of cardboard cutout scientists. There wasn't

814
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: a lot of character development or interesting plot development, and

815
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: you know, that larger social aspect was usually completely ignored,

816
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 1: all in favor of just the scientific discovery part. So

817
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to modernize that concept and bring it all

818
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: together and have you know, the big picture as well

819
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: as sort of this localized person who's trying to figure

820
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 1: something out, and we do. I guess we have one

821
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: good example that became you know, huge in pop culture,

822
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 1: which was The Martian Right, And that was fantastic to

823
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: see so many people actually like that because I read

824
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: it and I was really surprised that, you know, it

825
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 1: got as popular as it did, just considering the themes

826
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: and what happens in that story. So I wanted to

827
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: tell that particular aspect. And also that's again, I guess,

828
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: a part of my own personality. While I'm an engineer

829
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: by profession, I think I'm a scientist at heart, and

830
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: that's kind of where I got my start. And I

831
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: love this idea of teasing out puzzles, of debugging things.

832
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 1: You know, we're really debugging the universe in a lot

833
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: of ways, right, We're trying to understand how it works,

834
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: how we broke it, and how we fix it. And

835
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: so it was nice to kind of present that particular

836
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 1: aspect as part of a science fiction narrative. Well, I

837
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: really enjoyed seeing the scientists not just being nerds and

838
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: white lab coats, So thank you very much for that.

839
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: And then my last question is about the universe that

840
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 1: you've constructed. You know, in a science fiction novel, you

841
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: have the liberty to change the laws of physics or

842
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: biology or whatever and create a different universe that follows

843
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: different rules. It seemed to me in your book you

844
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: really huge closely to what could be possible in our universe.

845
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: Is that true first of all? And is that because

846
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,320
Speaker 1: you wanted to speak to issues in our society that

847
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: were most relevant to like our actual world. It was

848
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: definitely deliberate too, you know, hue to most of what

849
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: we know about today in terms of our physical world.

850
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 1: But I did it more because I think, genuinely, in

851
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: the next seventy five years, were unlikely to find something

852
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: radically groundbreaking, even as much as you know, quantum physics

853
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,720
Speaker 1: kind of turned classical mechanics on its head a hundred

854
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 1: issue years ago and led to the transistor and the

855
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 1: digital revolution. I decided not to take that particular path

856
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: because I knew that whatever I put in there is

857
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 1: probably not ever going to happen. I'm going to be

858
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: making it up right, And the places that we're really

859
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: poking at right now, I feel like that are the

860
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 1: big questions, are more large scale stuff like dark matter

861
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: where we're genuinely puzzled, and I think those are the

862
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: puzzles were probably going to tease out in the next

863
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:21,479
Speaker 1: few decades. So the one I guess sort of kind

864
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 1: of fun innovation I threw into machine hood that I

865
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: don't know if it will happen is this idea of

866
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: you know, tabletop genetics, thinking things like Crisper and saying

867
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: that it's going to be, you know, the computer revolution

868
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: of this century, that everybody's going to be able to

869
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: do that in their household. And so that was really

870
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: the only sort of leap I've taken where I'm not

871
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: sure that's really going to happen for the rest of it.

872
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 1: Especially with near term science fiction, I think it's always

873
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: better to stick with what we know and build a

874
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 1: plausible future than to radically redefine physics. That said, the

875
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: next novel that I have been working on for the

876
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 1: past year is that a thousand years in the future,

877
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: and I have definitely invented some new physics for thou one,

878
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: bringing in these ideas of dark matter and you know

879
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: why the universe is accelerating and maybe there's something in

880
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: our field theories that we are missing that. Okay, all right,

881
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: I let me, you know, define a new particle and

882
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 1: something that works on larger scales, and maybe we just

883
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,959
Speaker 1: didn't have the ability to sense it in But five

884
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,320
Speaker 1: years from now we'll have the appropriate technology to find

885
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: those things and then harness those things. So I find

886
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: it more comfortable to play with that, you know, on

887
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: a longer time scale than in the next hundred or so,

888
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: you know, hundred hundred and fifty years. Unless you turn

889
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: into a cyborg, you probably won't be around for people

890
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 1: to compare the factor to your fiction. Yeah, Sadly, I

891
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 1: may or may not live long enough to find out. Well,

892
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 1: thanks very much for taking the time to talk to

893
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: us about the universe you created in Machine hood Tell

894
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 1: our listeners about your next project and when we can

895
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,399
Speaker 1: expect to see something. The next project, unfortunately is still

896
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: very in its nascent sort of stages, so I can't

897
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: promise anything regarding it at this point. But I'm hard

898
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,879
Speaker 1: at work on this book and we'll see how it goes.

899
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: Right now, a lot of my focus is just getting

900
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 1: the word out about Machine Hoods. So tell your audience.

901
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: If you read it and you like it, please tell

902
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 1: your friends so there can be more books like it

903
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: in the world. And if you want a little teaser,

904
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: go to machine hood dot com. There's a little excerpt

905
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: from the machine Hoods manifesto there, and you know, links

906
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 1: to more good stuff. And yeah, it was my pleasure

907
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: to be here and talk about this. I can talk

908
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 1: about this stuff all day and speculate about science and

909
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:04,240
Speaker 1: technology fully for you know, many decades forward through my fiction.

910
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: All right, Well, congrats again on the novel and thanks

911
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: again for joining us. All right, so, thank you very

912
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: much to the opto for coming on the show and

913
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 1: answering all of my pesky questions about physics and consciousness

914
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: and artificial intelligence. This is the kind of stuff that

915
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 1: I love to think about. I really enjoy a novel

916
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: that pushes me to the limits to make me think

917
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: about what's possible, what our universe might be like, what

918
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: our life might be like in this universe as we

919
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: grow to become masters of the science and develop new

920
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,720
Speaker 1: technology that can really change what it means to be human.

921
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: For me, that's the whole goal of science, is to

922
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: push back on this boundary of ignorance and reveal the

923
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: nature of the universe and change our relationship with the Cosmos.

924
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: I'm frustrated by our ignorance of the nature of the

925
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: universe we live in, and i feel like we're making

926
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: ridiculous and silly decisions about how to live our life

927
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,879
Speaker 1: and how to explore the universe just because we are

928
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 1: so ignorant. And so I'm desperate to see deep into

929
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: the future and understand what we might learn and how

930
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,720
Speaker 1: we might live. And some of these science fiction novels

931
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 1: are so fun because they give you a little bit

932
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 1: of a taste of that. So thanks for tuning in

933
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 1: to Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, where usually we

934
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,800
Speaker 1: explore our universe, but sometimes we take these detours into

935
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: the world of science fiction. Thanks for tuning in and

936
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 1: see you next time. Thanks for listening, and remember that

937
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of

938
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Or more podcast from my Heart Radio

939
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

940
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.