1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to tonight's classic episode, Fellow conspiracy Realist. We talk 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: a lot about true crime. We examine a lot of 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: what makes people called serial killers, and while the nomenclature right, 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: While the term may be astonishingly recent, it turns out, 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: you guys, that the human species may have already been 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: well familiar with this behavior. 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: Is this the one where we get into assassins? Or 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: it inspired our assassins episodes? 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: It may well be our history of Oh what are 10 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: we supposed to call it? 11 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: Now? 12 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: Targeted operations, that's the euphem is. It's like when you 13 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: say regime if you don't like a government, and you 14 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: say government if you like them, it's an assassin. I 15 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:47,639 Speaker 1: sure don't like them, but. 16 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: I get it. It's like a targeted drone strike or 17 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 2: a targeted nuclear attack. I know what you're saying. 18 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: Are we going to start calling serial killers cereal unalivers? 19 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: Is that next we should? If we want people to 20 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: see this on YouTube? 21 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 3: Oh jeez, yeah. 22 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: Conspiracies within conspiracies, just like a bunch of murderous Matroshka dolls. 23 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: This is our classic episode from twenty nineteen called The 24 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: Eternal Shadow. Serial Killers throughout Ancient History. 25 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 26 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 27 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 3: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 28 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 3: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. 29 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. 30 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: Our compatriot nol Is on Adventures they call me Ben. 31 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: We are joined as always with our super producer Paul. 32 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: Mission control decands, most importantly, you are you. You are here, 33 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to 34 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: know a pretty gory, grim episode for us today. 35 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 2: Man, Yeah, let's go ahead and put this warning up 36 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: here right now. We're going to be discussing some things 37 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: that you may not want to hear, especially if you 38 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: dislike murder, sometimes, dismemberment, sometimes, torture, all kinds of things 39 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: that make me squeamish. So if you feel that way, 40 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: go ahead and turn back now. 41 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: If you're in the middle of eating something and you 42 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: have a somewhat delicate stomach, perhaps it is time to 43 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: put this on pause and finish your case idea or 44 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: your thuh whatever. 45 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: Even if you find yourself, I don't know, in the 46 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: backyard with a glass of wine, building a fountain, just 47 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: you know, just know that this one's a little messed up. 48 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: Serial killers, Matt, Yeah, serial killers. We've explored their lives, 49 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: their methods, and their attempts to evade justice, and you know, 50 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: most disturbingly, the tragedies they leave behind in their wake. 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: This on multiple episodes, sometimes focusing on general tendencies, sometimes 52 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: focusing on specific individuals. In an earlier episode, we trace 53 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: the evolution of the term serial killer from its initial 54 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: roots and it's not a very old term, spoiler alert 55 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: to the modern day, along with the changing and at 56 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: times controversial definitions involved. Usually when we talk about serial 57 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: murderers on this show, we are talking about let's see, 58 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: we've done a three part series on serial killers who 59 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: are never apprehended. Correct, we've done We've done some looks 60 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: at cults that incorporated serial killing, some human sacrifice and 61 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: so on. 62 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple of individual ones like the original Nightstalker 63 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: or what is it, the Golden State Killer? 64 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: Ah, yes, yeah, that's a bit of good news, right, 65 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: Golden State Killer was finally apprehended. Was that twenty eighteen? 66 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: Yes? Last? Or well yes, and of last year. 67 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: And when we look into these cases, we're typically exploring 68 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: things in the modern day or in the recent past, 69 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: because for most of us, especially here in the West, 70 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: when we think of serial killers, we generally tend to 71 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: think of things that happened in the twentieth century, maybe 72 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: a little bit in the nineteenth century, but primarily the 73 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds. It goes back to about that. And now 74 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: we're going to explore something different. Today. We are looking 75 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: into the past to search for the first recorded serial killers, 76 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: if we could find those, the ancient murderers, the murderers 77 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: of old, the ones who exis before the term serial 78 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: killer was ever invented. And to do that we first 79 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: have to we first have to explain what we mean 80 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: when we say serial killer. 81 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: Right, that's right. Here are the facts. Oh hey, sounds 82 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: so hokey when I say it. I'm sorry everybody, but 83 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 2: here are the facts. So a serial killer, at the 84 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: most basic level is it can be described or is 85 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: categorized by the manner in which they kill someone and 86 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: along with the amount they kill someone, like the frequency 87 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: in which they do this act. And according to the FBI, 88 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: we've used them as our source before to discuss what 89 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 2: a serial killer is. According to the FBI, serial killer 90 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: is someone who commits at least three murders over the 91 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: span of a month, and then there's always some some 92 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: form of cooling down period, generally in emotional cooling down 93 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 2: period in between those murders and those deaths. So this 94 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: really sets them apart from say a spree killer, someone 95 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: who kills a large amount of people over a short 96 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 2: time span, or a soldier in battle who takes lives 97 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 2: because it's part of their mission and job to do so, 98 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 2: and in particular it's that type of killer. So, okay, 99 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: let's put it this way. A spree killer has the 100 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: potential of killing more people generally in the span of 101 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: you know, a day or a week or something like that. 102 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: Then perhaps a serial killer who kills even over the 103 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: course of a year or at least, there's a potential there. 104 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: So it's not just sheer numbers, it's how they. 105 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: Kill, right, And serial killers will often be differentiated from 106 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: other individuals who murder multiple people. 107 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: In that they. 108 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: Tend to have they tend to have patterns of some sort, 109 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: whether it is the perceived commonality of their victims, by 110 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: which we mean something that the killer themselves sees in 111 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: these victims. That makes them all qualify as prey or 112 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: whether it's the method of homicide that they employ. So 113 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: you can see how there are some important distinctions here. 114 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: How many of these individuals are alive or uncaught today. 115 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: Every time we look at this we run into an 116 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: unsurprising but unpleasant lack of evidence. The current estimates on 117 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: serial killer numbers you see are woefully vague, and the 118 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: people who have attempted to attempted to guestimate the number 119 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: of unapprehended serial killers or murderers at large I always 120 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: walk away with a wide range of numbers. We are 121 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: going to give you a couple just to set up 122 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: some bookends here. Thomas Hargrove Sky, who founded the Murder 123 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: Accountability Project, And according to Hargrove and his research, there 124 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: are as many as two thousand serial killers at large 125 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: as of twenty eighteen in the US or at least 126 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: in the anglosphere. 127 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: Wow. That's a high number. Wow. And how did he 128 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: get to that number? That's one of the big questions here. 129 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: And really he started by asking contacts that he had 130 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 2: with the Federal Bureau of Investigation asked them to calculate 131 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: how many unsolved murders are linked to at least one 132 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: other murder through DNA on the FBI's database. So there 133 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: you go. Already, because they determined that about fourteen hundred murders, 134 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: or roughly two percent of those, like, of all the 135 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 2: murders within that database met the classification of being connected 136 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: to at least one other. That's already pretty disturbing. But 137 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: you know, if you look, if you look at the 138 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: fact that not all murder cases actually involve any kind 139 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: of evidence of the DNA sort at least, and not 140 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: all cases are even reported to the FBI, so that 141 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: two percent is a pretty low estimate. So then Hargrove 142 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 2: went through and he said, okay, well, let's add up. 143 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 2: Let's round it up to two thousand, just as a 144 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 2: measure of what he believes could be closer. And that's 145 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: because he continued looking. 146 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: Right, he said, there are more than two hundred and 147 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: twenty thousand unsolved murders just since nineteen eighty. So when 148 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: we put that in perspective, he asked, how shocking is 149 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: it that there are at least two thousand unrecognized series 150 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: of homicides. There's an important note here, So earlier, Matt, 151 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: you had broken down the FBI definition of serial killer 152 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: for US, and that's three or more murder with a 153 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: cooling off period. The thing about Hargrove's study is that 154 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: he only required a person to have killed two other people. 155 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: So what happens when we stick to the definition of 156 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: three murders per killer. That's when we run into Kenna Quinnette, 157 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: a criminologist at Indiana University, Perdue University, Indianapolis, and she 158 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: has a much more conservative estimate. So her estimate is 159 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: based on links between cases that were made by journalists 160 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: or law enforcement, and there's a different metric in her study, 161 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: the killer had to have murdered at least three victims 162 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: conforming to that FBI serial killer definition. By her definition, 163 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: there are about one hundred and fifteen serial killers dating 164 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: back to the nineteen seventies in the US whose crimes 165 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: have never been solved. In the same time period as 166 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: her estimate for unsolved serial murders, there were roughly six 167 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five solved serial murder cases. And we 168 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: don't again, we don't mean that every single one of 169 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: these people fits that sort of film and fiction definition. 170 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: They're not all hannibal lecters. In fact, most serial killers 171 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: do not have a very high IQ. But that's a 172 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: lot of death, and one hundred and fifteen is still 173 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: it might still be missing some pieces, because this doesn't 174 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: include cases where no one ever made a link between murders. If, 175 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: for instance, a serial killer murdered a person in Arkansas 176 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: and then drifted to an adjacent state to kill two 177 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: more people, the crimes might never have been flagged by 178 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: anyone as related, so they wouldn't appear in this count. 179 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: And that's one of the biggest reasons experts believe that 180 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: there could be any serial killers uncought and are missed. 181 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: People don't link you know, it's not like Charlie Day 182 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: with a conspiracy wall. People are not linking up these 183 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: various seemingly unrelated events. It's tough to do, so, you know, 184 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: it's a lot of research and it's a lot of time. 185 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, where is Pepe? For real? 186 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: Though there is no Pepe lost? Who had to inject some. 187 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 2: Left just a tiny bit good god, Well, because it's 188 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 2: a terrifying thought, just the unknown serial killer that just 189 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 2: could be lurking everywhere. And even if it's only one 190 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 2: hundred and fifteen. 191 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: That's still over one hundred. Yeah, over one hundred people. 192 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: They're only fifty states. That's true. 193 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: That's true. And I remember, I remember we had talked 194 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: about this, maybe off air one day met. But we 195 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: start talking about the distribution of serial killers at least 196 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: in the states. Are there more in Alaska, or they're 197 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: more in Florida, and so on, And it's an interesting 198 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: conversation because it quickly goes to speculation. We we don't 199 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: really know. We know that the inner State in Texas 200 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: is very, very dangerous, and the FBI has been keeping 201 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: an eye on it. But if we count on these estimates, 202 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: we can reasonably assume that there's somewhere between one hundred 203 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: and fifty to two thousand killers who never saw justice 204 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: for their crimes. Many of them may have been incarcerated 205 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: for other unrelated crimes, grand theft, auto drug possessions, something 206 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: like that, and many may have died right but as 207 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: grizzly as it is to point out, some remain at 208 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: large and alive today. And it's tricky and not a 209 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: little disheartening to realize how little we actually know about 210 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 1: these numbers and these murders a long time ago. Actually, 211 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: this is one of those conversations that you and I 212 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: have been having for years, right with slight pauses in there. 213 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: We've talked about it before. How much easier it seems 214 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: to get away with murder and other crimes in the 215 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: days before mass surveillance and forensic science. Yes, no one 216 00:13:55,440 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: knew what fingerprints were, No one knew how to attract DNA, 217 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: or even. 218 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: Even if you got it, it was a lot harder 219 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: to match somebody up with the database. 220 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, there's no database. That's a good point. So 221 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: this leads us to ask a disturbing question. Our serial 222 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: killers a relatively recent phenomenon in the human story. How 223 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: long have they been with us? Have serial murderers always 224 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: been in our midst? The answer, sadly, is an emphatic yes. 225 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's about to get crazy after this quick 226 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 2: word from our sponsor. 227 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy. 228 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: Upon closer inspection, it appears that the act of serial 229 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: murder has been with our species for as long as 230 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: written history, and by all indications, predates written history. These 231 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: killers ran the socio economic gamut. Among their number, we 232 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: find people at the very top and the very bottom 233 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: of social hierarchies. We find outcast royalty, criminals and members 234 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: of what functioned as the middle class. There are no 235 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: common denominators for these murderers other than their actions. And 236 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: here are some of the strangest examples of ancient serial 237 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: killers we came across. By no means are these all 238 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: of them. 239 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: Let's get started with someone named zoo Shinatier and this 240 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: is from originates from fifth century Yemen, so quite a 241 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: time ago. This man was in the Himarite Kingdom that's 242 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: a modern day Yemen. And this guy was known as 243 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 2: or at least he's come to be known as one 244 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 2: of the first serial killers, the first recorded at least. 245 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: He was reportedly a very wealthy man. He lived in 246 00:15:54,280 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: a place called Aiden. And this guy, it's really disturbed. 247 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 2: Remember that thing, that whole warning we gave you at 248 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: the top, just remember it still stands. He would reportedly 249 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: lure young men, young boys into his home with the 250 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: promise of things that they needed at the time in 251 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 2: fifth century Yemen or fifth century what is now Yemen, food, money, 252 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: things again, things that they required, and he would strip 253 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: them naked. He would assault them, generally it included rape 254 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: at least from the things that we found. He would 255 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 2: then kill them generally by throwing them naked out of 256 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 2: an upper story window of his home, and he did 257 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: this repeatedly, and then, thankfully, one of the young men 258 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 2: that he lured into his home was able to put 259 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: a stop to him and stabbed him to death. There's 260 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: a man at least that was named in one book 261 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: that recorded it as zarash as the young man who 262 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 2: killed him, thankfully, But he's only the start, and he's 263 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: really messed up, and it only gets. 264 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: Worse, right, right, He is not the first. He is 265 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: just one of the earliest that. 266 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: We know of. Yeah, well again because it's fifth century, 267 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: so it was written down a little more easily than 268 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 2: some of the even earlier ones. 269 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: That we'll find very important point with shu Shinatir. He 270 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: was definitely doing this. We're going to run into some 271 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: strange concerns we always need to have about historical documents. 272 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: But this guy definitely was a child murderer and a 273 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: somewhat prolific one until, of course, as you said, Matt, 274 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: one of his victims managed to take his life. Let's 275 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: move on to someone who is commonly called the world's 276 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: first recorded serial killer or the world's first female serial killer. 277 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: This is Lucusta the Poisoner. So she gets this title 278 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: all the time. You'll hear it pretty often. I did 279 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: an episode about her for another show, Ridiculous History, where 280 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: I also called her the one of the first recorded 281 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: serial killers. But there's a question here because she wasn't 282 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: so much a serial killer as a paid assassin. So 283 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: members of the Roman elite were hiring her to poison 284 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: the coworkers they didn't like, or to get rid of 285 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: their relatives if they wanted an inheritance, you know, and 286 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: great Uncle Flavius has just taken too long to kick 287 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 1: the bucket. She grew up in what we call France today, 288 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: and she had an encyclopedia knowledge of herbal medicine and 289 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: plant lore. The local elite saw her knowledge as a 290 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: way to get rid of their enemies without a fuss, 291 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: and she saw a market opportunity. So she wasn't necessarily 292 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: motivated by some sort of again perceived commonality of the victims, right, 293 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: She wasn't looking for young people or brunettes or so on. 294 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: She was doing this as a job, and she became 295 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: pretty famous. She was arrested a few times, but the 296 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 1: people in power who used her services always kept her 297 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: out of jail. She got rescued by her wealthy patrons 298 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: numerous times, and eventually she was called to the city 299 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: of Rome to assist the Empress Agrippina in getting rid 300 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: of her husband, and she served a Grappina. She went 301 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: on to serve the infamous Emperor Nero, who just loved her, 302 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: and a lot of stuff about Nero is exaggerated, but 303 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: he was not a nice character. When he died, she 304 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: found herself robbed of all the protection she had enjoyed 305 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: for decades. She had even set up a poison school. 306 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: At this point, she was immediately sentenced to death for 307 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: her role in the murders of dozens and dozens of 308 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: upper crust members of Roman society. And again, like the 309 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: case with Zushinatier, we know that she was real and 310 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: we know she actually did this. 311 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly as soon as I think Galba was the 312 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 2: person who took over after Nero fell. But yeah, he 313 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 2: definitely said, hey, guess what you get to die now. 314 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 2: It really messed up, but at least somebody put an 315 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: end to the assassinations. Now, let's move on to one 316 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 2: of the first forms of serial killers that we ever 317 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 2: covered on this show. Back in a video we made 318 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 2: about where wolves in the history of lycanthropy fascinating stuff. 319 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: So if we go to the Middle Ages in Europe, 320 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 2: there were a lot of killers, deranged people who would 321 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 2: go around doing just terrible things, everything from murder to cannibalism, 322 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 2: just just the worst of the worst. There were human 323 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 2: men that would go out and do this that were 324 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 2: considered to be werewolves, or at least thought to be werewolves. 325 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: And there are some pretty intense claims made about these men, 326 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: even claims by the men themselves who believed, perhaps truly 327 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: believed that they would transform in some way to a 328 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: wolf or at least the spirit of a wolf. 329 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: In the sixteenth century, it was a French peasant named 330 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:37,959 Speaker 1: Pierre Bourgeau who was apparently under the control the thrall 331 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: of several figures clad in black, and this is per 332 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: his testimony, including one man named Michael ver Dunn. So, 333 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: according to Brugeau's story, Verdunn gave him an ointment that 334 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: would transform him from a man into a wolf. And 335 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: we talk about this a little bit in the past 336 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: in various episodes. The way that were wolves are generally 337 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: thought to transform nowadays is you get bit by a 338 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: were wolf, but you survive. Yes, that's the way in right, 339 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: and then you follow the path of the wolf. However, 340 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: back then, you could become a wolf through any number 341 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: of weird satanic rituals, drinking water from a water from 342 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: a wolf's print in the light of the full boon, 343 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: wearing a belt made out of a wolf pelt, or 344 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: just rubbing yourself down with some ointment, yeah. 345 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: Or you know, taking a potion. As you said before, 346 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:36,959 Speaker 2: there are a lot of ways that people could be 347 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,239 Speaker 2: you know, from a rational, very rational standpoint, a lot 348 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: of ways that people could be convinced that they can 349 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 2: become a werewolf or have become a werewolf. 350 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: And there's some pretty fascinating arguments that are by no 351 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: means water proof, but there are some pretty fascinating arguments 352 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: that some of these ointments were in fact hallucinogens, and 353 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: so these people really did, at least from their perspective, transform, 354 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: even if not physically. There was a third guy who 355 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: was named in this fiasco with weird, really weird, first 356 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: named Philibert. Yeah, doesn't sound like a killer, Philibert Montaute. 357 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: So Brigot, Montaut and Verdun became known as the werewolves 358 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: of Polygony and they were collectively responsible for the murders 359 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: of several children. They confessed to these murders. 360 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: They did, But how why did they confess? Ben Oh? 361 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: Because they were getting tortured left and right, day and 362 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: day out like nobody's business. 363 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: And full on tortured, bad torture beyond the things that 364 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 2: you see in any mob movie you've ever seen. It's 365 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 2: really truly medieval. 366 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: Stuff, such the point that they could have easily died 367 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: during the torture. So they catch Dune and allegedly they 368 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: catch them covered in blood, and they begin torturing him. 369 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: Confess to your crimes. What infernal powers have allowed you 370 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: to transform into an otherworldly agent of Satan? And who 371 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: was with you? Tell us essentially what your covenant is? Yeah, 372 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: and identify the members therein So, under torture, he confesses 373 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: to whatever they say he did, and then he says, also, 374 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: these two guys, Brigo and Monteaux are in on this 375 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: with me. And then they get apprehended. Burgo gets tortured 376 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: and he says, these two guys forced me to renounce 377 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: God and turn into a werewolf. I had to do 378 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: it to survive. And you know, they're breaking more of 379 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: his limbs, and they're saying, well, did you kill hundreds 380 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: of children? He's saying something like yes, please, God stop, 381 00:24:58,480 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: don't kill me. 382 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: And just quickly, as sidebar, let's talk about the torture 383 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: that was used against these guys, because it's something that 384 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: I've seen pictures of before and I looked at it again, 385 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: and you may have heard of it, called something that's 386 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 2: a torture wheel of sorts. And in a lot of 387 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: these pictures, these woodcuts that still remain today, copies of them, 388 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 2: you can see what's being employed. And it is so brutal. 389 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: I'm just I'm gonna describe it trigger warning. Here Where 390 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: you were laid down where and there are I guess, 391 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: wedges put beneath the places in where your joints are 392 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 2: and your arm your major arm and leg bones are broken. 393 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 2: And then you're where those bones are broken. You are 394 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 2: wrapped around this wheel like a wooden looks like a 395 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 2: large wooden wagon wheel, and then you are hung from 396 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: on this wheel on a stake of some sort and 397 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: basically turned upside down while you're still alive. It's hard 398 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 2: to imagine you can find pictures of it. The thing is, 399 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: if you if you can imagine, which is very difficult 400 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: to do going through something like that and the pain 401 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 2: and terror involved. Then it really does make you realize 402 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: that the confessions made when undergoing that are to be 403 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 2: taken with a grain of salt. 404 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and we probably will never know for sure to 405 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: what degree these three men were guilty. However, they were 406 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: not the only quote unquote werewolves of the time. There 407 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: was a serial killer. It was also a cannibal named 408 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: Peter Stump sometimes spelled Stump or Stube, and he was 409 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: called the werewolf of Bedburg, who was a one armed 410 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: farmer lived in fifteenth century Germany. Over the course of 411 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five years, he's thought to have murdered fourteen children, 412 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: two pregnant women, and he might not have ever been caught, 413 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: but like many serial killers, he seemed to have a 414 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: degrading mental state. Yeah, which is how you know things 415 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: like Dennis Radar, right, the BTK killer would have gotten 416 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: away had his mental state not continued to decay such 417 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: that he felt like he had to be recognized for 418 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: his terrible, terrible crimes. This guy Stump or Stump or Stube. 419 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: When he was caught he said, look, yeah, I drank 420 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: that cow's blood. 421 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 2: You know what else? 422 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: I also have eaten fetuses. And I had a son. 423 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: I ate his brain. I don't care. I'm a monster. 424 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: And the thing was in his non kill her life. 425 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: He was a wealthy farmer and he was a widower. 426 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: He had two children, the son of an unknown age 427 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: and a daughter called Beale or Sybil, who was, as 428 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: far as you know, at least older than fifteen. He 429 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: was subjected to torture who stretched on her rack, and 430 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: that's when he claimed he had been practicing black magic 431 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 1: since he was twelve years old. He said the devil 432 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: had allowed him to change into a wolf, and for 433 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: twenty five years, he said he had been an insatiable 434 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: bloodsucker animals, men, women, children. He confessed when he was 435 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: when he was presented with the possibility of more torture, 436 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 1: and he was also accused of having an incestuous relationship 437 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: with his daughter. She was sentenced to die with him, 438 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: and he said that he had had intercourse with a succubus, 439 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: again confessing under torture. This did not save him. These 440 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: confessions instead led to his execution on October thirty one, 441 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: fifteen eighty nine. He his mistress and his daughter were murdered. 442 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: He was murdered in a particularly gruesome way. He was 443 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: put on the wheel that you mentioned earlier, Matt, and 444 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: they tore flesh from his body in ten places with 445 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: red hot pinchers, then his arms and legs, then his 446 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: limbs were broken with an axe head to prevent him 447 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: from returning from the grave, and he was beheaded. They 448 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: burned his body. His daughter and his mistress were aflayed 449 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: and strangled and then also burned along with him, and 450 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: the authorities placed his severed head on top of a 451 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: pole with the torture wheel and a figure of a 452 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: wolf audit, so they were convinced that he did something. 453 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: While none of these men were, of course proven to 454 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: be capable of physically changing shape, contemporary accounts paint a 455 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: picture of one or two possibilities. One they could have 456 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: been mentally ill and homicidal. Two, they could have been 457 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: mentally ill and confessing to non existent or exaggerated crimes 458 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: see and this is a distinct possibility. They could have 459 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: been completely innocent and falsely confessing to avoid further torture. 460 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: But there's an entire genre in Europe around this time 461 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: of people being accused of lycanthropy. And this is just 462 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: the beginning of the story. We'll come back with more 463 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: tales of ancient serial killers after a word from our sponsor. 464 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: We've been in Europe for some time. Let's travel to 465 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: South America to the story of Rios e Lis Buguer. 466 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 2: Yes, this is a woman who was also known as 467 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: law Quintralla. And this had to do with her the 468 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 2: color of her hair. She had very striking red hair 469 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 2: and she lived in Chile. She was an aristocrat and landowner. 470 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 2: She allegedly carried out about forty murders, around forty murders 471 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 2: while she while she was basically a tyrant of sorts 472 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: over a lot of just a lot of people who 473 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 2: were working on her estate rough you know, they're indigenous 474 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 2: workers who then she was in charge of, and she 475 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 2: was just brutal to them. Apparently now she was a 476 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 2: member of you know, what would be considered a privileged 477 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: set of people under Santiago in colonial Santiago, and she 478 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: was said to just have delighted it was her she 479 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: very much enjoyed doing depraved things, things that were sacrilegious 480 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 2: in nature, I guess to the church, things that were 481 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 2: sexual and you know, having to do with consumption, like 482 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 2: over indulging, copious consumption exactly. It's hedonism, that's exactly what 483 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 2: it is. And there's another person, Elizabeth Bathory from history 484 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 2: that we've kind of heard about a couple of times 485 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 2: that this person, Laquintralla, has similarities with. She had a 486 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 2: violent temper. Again, she's a noble woman. She's got a 487 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:33,239 Speaker 2: fondness for torture, and specifically torturing people who are underneath her, 488 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 2: her subordinates. She seemed to delight in it, like we said. Now, besides, 489 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: you know, her indentured servants and her slaves, she also 490 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 2: murdered lovers, which is something we may see here in 491 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: the future. Here she even murdered a priest and even 492 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 2: committed patricide and killed her father. Now, you know, in 493 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: this case, a lot of the people we've spoken about 494 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 2: haven't been wealth be wealthy, but this is one of 495 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 2: the first cases we see that the wealth is actually 496 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 2: being used to avoid justice. It's kind of like the 497 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 2: person from Rome we were speaking about, Friends in high Places, yeah, Lacusta, Yeah, 498 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: where she was able to use her influence to avoid 499 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 2: justice for quite a while, several years in fact, and 500 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 2: she even would donate to the church, to the Catholic 501 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 2: Church in order to kind of grease the hand in 502 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 2: a way to be a little a little bit safer, 503 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 2: even though it's kind of a known thing. 504 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: Maybe, yeah, she epsteined it essent. Yeah, you know, because 505 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: she was paying off judges, lawyers, she had many relatives 506 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: in political positions. She did go on trial, but despite 507 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: being pegged for forty separate murders, the trial was stalled 508 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: as a result of her influence. She was released and 509 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: then this is around the sixteen hundreds, from sixteen thirty 510 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: seven on, she was released and she lived out the 511 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: remainder of her life. She eventually passed away in sixteen 512 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: sixty five of old age, not in jail, and thirty 513 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: years later the judiciary system caught up and they said, 514 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: let's investigate these things. But she was dead, so whatever 515 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: she did, whatever kind of justice she would face, it 516 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: would not be earthly justice. And years after her death 517 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: her home was abandoned because people thought that her ghosts 518 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: still walked the premises. And let's stick with let's stick 519 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: with female serial killers here. There's another one, Gulia Tofana. 520 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: As we know, there's a stereotype that tells us female 521 00:34:54,600 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: serial killers generally seemed to prefer poison as their primary 522 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: a murder instrument. This is a stereotype. Stereotypes are everywhere. 523 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: There may be a tendency, but that's certainly not everybody. However, 524 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: Gulia Tofana is a poster child for the compulsive poisoning crew. 525 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 2: And again, like similar to our earlier example. 526 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: And here's our question. Is she We have confirmed kills 527 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: on her side, but is she a serial killer or 528 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 1: is she someone in a gruesome profession? She was helping 529 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: wives who wanted to kill their husbands, along with her 530 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 1: daughter who worked with her, and a couple of assistants, 531 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: and they were mass producing poison. It was a kind 532 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: of it was believed to be related to arsenic So 533 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: is she a businesswoman? 534 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,479 Speaker 2: She a killer? Is she both? She even had a 535 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 2: poison named after her. 536 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: Right, that's that's true? 537 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 3: Yeah? 538 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, what was it? 539 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's the specific I guess version of 540 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 2: of arsenic right, the Aqua Tofana. 541 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 3: So don't. 542 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: Don't take it if you read that in an ingredient 543 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: list or anything. Don't don't bother with that. Put those 544 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: cheese nips away. 545 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a fancy bottled water aqua ta fauna. 546 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: That's what it sounds like to me. 547 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: And we have time for one more. Let's see, let's 548 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: go with Liu pingree. Liu pingli was a Han prince. 549 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: Like some of our other early serial killers, he was 550 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 1: from wealth. He was born in the second century BC. 551 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: He is one of the earliest serial killers that we 552 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 1: have on record. So there are a couple of different 553 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: competing ones. Here is the third son of Liu Hu, 554 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: who is Prince Yao of Liang and the grandson of 555 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: the Emperor One and the nephew of the Emperor Jing, 556 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: so he is very very well connected. According to book 557 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: called Records of the Grand Historian, this guy was a monster. 558 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: He was arrogant and cruel, and his idea of a 559 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 1: fun time would be to round up some of his 560 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: friends or his followers and go on marauding expeditions with 561 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: slaves from the court or with young men who are 562 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: on the wrong side of the law, and they would 563 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: literally ride out around town and the countryside and they 564 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: would murder people for fun and steal their stuff just 565 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: because he thought it was a lark. 566 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 2: Wow, It's like the definition of marauder is that a 567 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 2: correct term. 568 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, gosh, this is not like the werewolves of Polygony, right. 569 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: We know exactly what he did. He killed and his 570 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: crew killed over one hundred people, and they became infamous. 571 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: These murders were known across the kingdom, and people were 572 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: afraid to go out at night. Eventually, things get to 573 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: a boiling point and someone, a son of someone he 574 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: had killed, accuses him and tells the Emperor, you know, look, 575 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,760 Speaker 1: your son is a monster. He's running around killing people 576 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,839 Speaker 1: for sport. And as soon as that person said it, 577 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: other people spoke out, and officials in the court said, 578 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: you have to kill your nephew. More than one hundred 579 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: people have died, how many more have to die? And 580 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: the Emperor said, I can't. I can't bring myself to 581 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 1: kill my nephew, no matter what kind of person he is. 582 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: But I will do the next best thing. He stripped 583 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: Leu Pingli of all of his royal titles, made him 584 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: just regular shmo, and banished him to County Shangyong. What 585 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: happened after that, we don't know, because again it's it's 586 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: very difficult for us to trace the lives of commonplace 587 00:38:58,680 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: people at this day. 588 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 2: High you know. Yeah, when you got stripped of that title, 589 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 2: it kind of banished even what he did to the unknown. 590 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: But this is pretty surprising stuff when you see just 591 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: from a few examples, you see how prevalent serial murdering is, 592 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: or at least the accusations thereof. That's where we have 593 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: to talk about the problems with historical accounts, right yep. 594 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: The same sources that would appear to be our primary 595 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,879 Speaker 1: means of learning a story may often be the very 596 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: same sources that prevent us from learning the truth. Because 597 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: you think propaganda is bad now, oh body, right. 598 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 2: When you're the one who survives the end of a 599 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,359 Speaker 2: sword and the other person does not, you can write 600 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 2: whatever you want. 601 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: Right exactly. 602 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:45,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. 603 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: History is written by the winners, and often just seeing 604 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: something in print was enough to damn someone in the 605 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: public eye. There's a fantastic book called A Devil in 606 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: the Shape of a Woman that looks at this practice 607 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: in the Salem witch tribes. And what we find is 608 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: that more so in Europe, but also a little bit 609 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: in Salem, there are questions of there are questions of motive. 610 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: Did the accusers always believe someone was in league with 611 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: the devil? Or were they pushing the case because according 612 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: to law in some communities, the inquisitors or the accusers 613 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: got a piece of the person's estate when they were 614 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: found to be a witch. 615 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 2: It's definitely possible, right right, And yeah, man, you gotta 616 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 2: think about literacy rates as well in general for certain 617 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 2: regions where things are happening historically, and also the people 618 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 2: who can read the stuff that is being written. There 619 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 2: a lot of times, the people who can make the 620 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,360 Speaker 2: laws or enact justice right or something to that effect. 621 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 2: And when there's a written document that says it's an 622 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 2: accusatory document, it's going to stand out with the people 623 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 2: who who are looking to root out heresy, to root 624 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 2: out things that would go against the church and or 625 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 2: well the state, sometimes the nation, but usually the church. 626 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 1: And in several of the cases above, Despite these salient 627 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: historical questions, we have found cooperating sources that appear to 628 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: confirm some basic and disturbing truths. And just with this 629 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: small collection of examples, we have illustrated that the concept 630 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:37,720 Speaker 1: of serial murderers predates the term serial killer. The same 631 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: psychoses are present, if not prevalent, and we will never 632 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: know how many serial murderers existed we don't have a 633 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: particularly sharp understanding of how many exist today. However, we 634 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: can surmise that this practice and these people have been 635 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: with humanity since before the dawn of modern history, a 636 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: dark shadow falling behind our species from the day the 637 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,359 Speaker 1: first Homo sapiens emerged. 638 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, and oh my god, and let's bring something else 639 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:14,760 Speaker 2: up here really fast. We've been talking about serial murders 640 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,919 Speaker 2: and serial killers and how many may exist right now. Well, 641 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 2: there's a person that we talked to through the Zodiac 642 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 2: Killer show named Peter Vronsky, and he brings up a 643 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 2: very fascinating idea here. He believes that when there's economic downturn, 644 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 2: especially on a wide scale in any region or globally 645 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 2: even or just in a town, the probability of creating 646 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 2: a future serial killer who is going through this, uh, 647 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,919 Speaker 2: the economic downturn, all the realities that you face when 648 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 2: that's happening, He believes that you increase the probability of 649 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 2: creating serial killers. And in his opinion, he wrote a 650 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 2: book called Sons of Kin, and in it he describes 651 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 2: how because of the financial crisis from two thousand and 652 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,200 Speaker 2: seven two thousand and eight, we are actually creating a 653 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 2: new generation of serial killers, or we have generated essentially 654 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 2: a new season of serial killers that will emerge ten 655 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 2: twenty years from now. And he believes that that economic 656 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 2: downturn at least in some way helped to create those 657 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 2: serial killers. Fascinating stuff, fast. 658 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 1: Scaring, fascinating. I'd love to I'd love to check out 659 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: this book. I'd love to learn more about his work. 660 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't 661 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,879 Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts. We try to be easy 662 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: to find online. Find this in the handle conspiracy Stuff, 663 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,240 Speaker 1: where we exist on Facebook x and YouTube, on Instagram 664 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: and TikTok where Conspiracy Stuff show. 665 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 2: Call our number. It's one eight three three std WYTK, 666 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 2: leave a voicemail. 667 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: And if you have more to say, we can't wait 668 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: to hear from you at our good old fashioned email 669 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: address where we are conspiracy at iheartbrate dot com. 670 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:21,760 Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production 671 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:26,399 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 672 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.