WEBVTT - Cut Down 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.760 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.559 last twenty five years writing about true crime. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.800 And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.400 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.799 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.720 compelling true crimes. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.239 And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:26.040 new insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.639 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.360 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.800 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:40.240 This is buried bones. 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:02.240 Vakate. How are you? 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:03.920 I'm great, Paul, how are you? 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:05.720 I am doing really good. 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.039 I have a big sports story for you. Not really, 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.120 it's big for our family. One of my girls, Quinn, 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.640 is a big athlete. She loves basically every sport. We 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.440 are not a basketball family, okay, we just you know, 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.280 I played soccer, Quinn plays volleyball. She's great at volleyball. 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.600 You know, We've done a lot of different sports. Basketball 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.080 has never been one of them. Did your kids ever 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.680 play basketball or did you ever play basketball? And no, tall, 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.119 short jokes whatever you're about to say, not being qualified 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:39.080 to play basketball because of your height. 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.280 Yeah, you know, during I would say, like the sixth 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.479 to eighth grade, basketball is my favorite sport. 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:47.000 Okay. 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:49.720 I was out in San Antonio and there was a 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.080 basketball hoop out there on the street and I would 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.840 go and do like one hundred labs with my right hand, 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.680 hundred labs with my left hand, you know, and a 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.560 lot of pickup games and never played it after that, 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.320 you know, So I have experience with basketball. I kind 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.160 of wish I had done it in high school, you know, 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:12.120 instead ended up playing football, and my body just did 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:13.640 not hold up very well to football. 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.280 So football ruined you essentially for other sports. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:20.440 Is yes, that pretty much. I had a my junior 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.959 year during hell week, you know, helmet to helmet collision, 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.120 you know, the pick a hole, and ended up getting 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:28.840 a pretty significant concussion. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:29.079 Oh. 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:31.720 I still get what I call my concussion headache today, 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.839 which is right here. This is a weird thing, And 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:39.079 in hindsight, I am very happy that I did not 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.040 continue to play football because in you know, what kind 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:46.600 of injuries or even concussive effects would I have now 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:47.480 that I'm getting older. 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.280 Oh, yeah, I mean, how awful, awful awful, And your 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.000 kids did not play in high school? I assume no. 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:58.280 You know, my older kids they both played volleyball, My 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.520 oldest daughter played water polo o. My younger kids just 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.600 never took up sports. They just were not interested in it. 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.520 Okay, well I have one kid like that, and then Quinn, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.480 who will play anything. So Quinn got talked into playing 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.639 basketball because she's friends with these two seniors who were 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.480 wonderful and they're on the basketball team, and they said, 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.480 you know, you need to come play basketball. So she said, okay, 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:22.880 I've never played before. We'll go to the park and 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.440 shoot hoops a little bit. But neither of us. I mean, 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.000 I'm not good. She's not particularly good either, so she 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.919 is petrified to play. I think it was the second game. 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:35.720 I was sitting there watching her and I was talking 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.560 to one of the other parents, and I saw her 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:41.440 sitting next to the head coach, listening to him really intently, 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.160 and he had a notepad, and I asked one of 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.400 the parents, who's really into basketball? I said, what's happening? 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.080 And she said that the coach is teaching your kid 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.640 how to play right before she goes on because she 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.520 didn't know the difference fall between offense and defense in 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:58.760 terms of basketball. She didn't understand. Yeah, so I said 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.119 to her, I gave her the ageous device I could 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.240 come up with, which is win in out, steal the ball, 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.320 don't touch the person, but steal the ball and get 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.280 it to somebody who can shoot. Because I think it's 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.960 unrealistic for her to think that she's going to be 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.240 shooting three pointers immediately. We have to kind of build 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:17.480 up to that. Yeah, and the coach of Green with 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:19.719 my technique, and so we said that's a good idea. 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.720 So she's playing. She's playing, she's doing what I'm saying. 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.240 She's not really stealing the ball, but when she does 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.320 get the ball, she's feeding it to the right people. 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:31.720 So there's three seconds left and we are just getting killed. 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.400 Like it's pretty awful. I think it's like ten to 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:37.839 forty eight or something else. Really Okay, yeah, it was 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.440 really bad. But she's just happy to be on the 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:42.080 court and just trying to figure out the way this 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.000 game works. And all of her friends says she's doing 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.000 a good job. So she's on the court. There's three 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.599 seconds left. There's somebody I don't remember the technical term. 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.000 What is it when you get the ball and you go, 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.400 you know, across the line and then you like throw 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:56.119 it in, you do like a chess throw or whatever 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:57.920 in and then the person on your team can throw 0:04:57.960 --> 0:04:59.880 and could shoot. What is that? What does that mean? 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:01.920 Taking an inbound or something like that? 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:04.680 Inbound pass? Yeah, for sure, I think that's what you're 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:05.200 talking about. 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.799 Yeah. So her teammates on the sideline with the ball 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:11.720 and their team is crowded up. The kids who are 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:13.960 on the court are all crowded up. There's three seconds left, 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.800 and the girl looks at Quinn, her teammate, and starts saying, 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:19.280 I'm going, oh god, Quinn's going to get the ball, 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.000 and there's three seconds left. Maybe she can turn and 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.920 shoot and salvage something from this terrible game. So the 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.200 clock starts, the girl has the ball, she looks at Quinn. 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.839 She passes Quinn the ball, and Quinn ducks. 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:33.120 Of course she does. 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.479 I've never seen that happen before. And the buzzer is 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:40.880 so dramatic, and then the buzzer goes off and I 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.159 started laughing, and luckily her coach laughed too. You know, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.320 we were like a smart art school. The sports is 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.560 not their big priority. We love sports, but you know, 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:52.880 we give that same kind of energy to like the 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:55.640 art shows and the bands that they have. So sure, 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.880 luckily nobody really ribbed her too much about it. But 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:00.839 oh my gosh, I mean when she did that, I 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.600 just thought, that's my kid. Boy, she just and then 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.560 she said she got into the car and she said, Paul, 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.320 she said, it's three seconds. What am I supposed to 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.520 do it through? Was I really supposed to take a shot? 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.520 And I said, yes, you weren't. You were supposed to 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:14.800 do a shot. 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:16.880 For her, though, you know, that's that's a tough position 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:17.479 to be put in. 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.599 I know. And she said, well, I didn't think she 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:22.520 was throwing it to me at all. And I said, okay, 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.200 well I understand that, but when you done right, well 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:26.839 I thought that was funny. It was a very typical 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.160 kind of Quinn story that was lovely. 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:34.000 No, yeah, when and yeah, I would say, like basketball, 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:38.479 the worst injury I ever got from basketball was the 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:42.680 ball to the nose. Oh that hurts so bad. You know, 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.200 it bangs off the rim and now it hits the 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.160 square in the face. You're done at that point. Fortunately, 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:50.080 I never broke my nose as a result, but I 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:51.400 had that happen several times. 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:54.040 Yeah, I had a bad a couple of bad injuries 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.120 with soccer. I mean I felt like, you know, I 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.480 had a separated shoulder and broken ankle, broken foot, things 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:04.000 like that. But yeah, I don't know Quinn. She's gotten 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.839 better for sure. But when she ducked, I just thought, 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:11.120 that's she's comic relief. I think for sports. 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.680 Teams, is she going to be continuing to play? Is 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:14.800 this something that's ongoing? 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.080 Then the seniors are making her so yes, I think. 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:17.760 Okay. 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.200 So then we ended up playing a team where it 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.200 was reversed. I mean, we really like ended up stomping 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.360 this team and they were great sports about it. She 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.560 ended up scoring, and I kind of think she's like, 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:30.360 that's great. And I told my friend, I said, this 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:32.880 is like Vegas. You know, she hit the jackpot one time, 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.320 and hopefully she'll continue to go back, but there's no 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.239 guarantee depending on the team, so you know, she'll try 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:43.600 any sport essentially, But she's excited her sister doing rock climbing. 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.760 She's in a rock climbing club. So yeah, okay. One 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:48.520 of the things that my kiddos. Love is. We spent 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.160 a part of our summer in London every year, and 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.080 they do all kinds of activities outside, and we are, 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:59.360 for this story going to be in London, nineteen twenty two, London. 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.240 So you and I to go back to London where 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:02.720 we were. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.240 That's great. You know, I've gotten to know London a 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.800 little bit better since you and I met up there, 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.600 and you were with me when the hotel caught fire, right, 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:13.480 that was dramatic. 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.080 I don't know was it that dramatic? I can't remember 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:17.600 was it really? I guess it was. 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.520 You had the fire engines coming, they had their homeland 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.080 the equivalent of their homeland security people showing up being honest, like, 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:27.600 are we dealing with a terrorist act here? You know 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.640 which over in London. That's that's something. But then we 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.880 all end up petting to a bar and waiting the 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:34.520 fire out. 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:36.800 It was a pub, but yes, that's exactly what. 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:42.160 We same thing. Speaking of which, I got my bourbon 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:43.240 for this episode, so. 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:47.040 Oh you did? You did your American bourbon for this 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:48.520 very British story. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.840 I think, yeah, they need to have more more bourbon 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:53.480 over in London. There's too much Scotch. 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.079 I can't even get into the difference because I'm clueless 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.360 about the difference and frankly not that interesting. 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.000 Yeah, if you don't like bourbon, you would struggle with 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:05.200 Scotch at all likelihood. 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.640 I struggle with all hard liquor. They're not my friends 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:09.880 for sure. Okay, Well, I'm going to get a cider 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:13.000 and we're going to head to London and let me 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:18.280 set the scene. We are in nineteen twenty two UK, 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:23.280 and this is a story about a couple and their 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.360 relationship and kind of what ends up happening, and the 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.480 police really trying to piece some things together. It's just 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:33.760 after midnight. It's Wednesday, October fourth, nineteen twenty two, and 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.760 there's a young married couple named Edith and Percy Thompson. 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:39.480 You gotta love a good Percy. We don't get a 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.120 lot of Percy's here in the United States, I think, right. 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:46.520 No, you know, I can think of one football player 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:51.120 Minnesota Viking, Percy Harvin. Okay, that's probably the only purse. No, 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:52.679 I can think of somebody in high school. I think 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:53.680 I was also Percy. 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:55.760 Okay, very old school name, or at least in the 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:56.360 United States. 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:57.200 I think it would be ye. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.880 So Edith and Percy are walking home from a trains 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.360 to their house in the London suburb of Ilford after 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.000 an evening out of the theater. You know, they're pretty 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.800 close in age. Edith is twenty eight and Percy is 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:14.239 thirty three. So getting right to the incident, here witnesses 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:19.439 here a woman's scream and she says, according to some witnesses, 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.960 she says, oh dear, what should I do? My husband 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.120 has fallen and cut his head. And they also then 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:30.120 hear the sound of vomiting. If we take this at 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:32.960 face value, I don't think we've talked about this before. 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:37.240 What happens to your body to trigger vomiting when you've 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.280 had some kind of a head injury. What is that exactly? 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:44.319 You're really testing my medical knowledge on this question. It's 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.480 I think, you know, when you start talking about, you know, 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.280 that nauseous feeling, I think there's a lot of things 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:52.720 that could cause that. You know, first of course, maybe 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:57.440 a brain injury, traumatic brain injury, but also you know, 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:01.160 there's weird things like with the cranial nerves, like like 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:04.600 there's a vagual nerve reflex where you can have all 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:08.760 sorts of different types of reactions to injury, whether it 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.320 be like to your neck, and that's something where the 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:16.800 medical evaluation would have to consider all sorts of different 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.760 things for this symptom. You know, it's if it truly 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.640 is a result of this traumatic you know, this fall 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:27.600 where it's at least significant enough that there's a laceration 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.560 on the scalp and you've got you know, this vomiting 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:32.880 that's occurring pretty quickly afterwards. 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:41.400 Okay, so sorry for testing your medical knowledge. Ball. We'll 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:43.840 see what comes of this though. Yeah, I understand, and 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:46.600 you know. So they hear the sound of vomiting. Edith 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.000 rushes to find some people to come to help, and 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:51.719 she finds two people who have also been walking back 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.760 from this train around midnight. She says, come quickly. She says, 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.600 her husband's blood is all over her. And they get 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.559 back to Percy. He's laying the ground, he is bleeding heavily, 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.079 and one of them runs to get a nearby doctor. 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.280 So the street is very dark, so I would assume 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.080 no street lights. One of the people who's come back 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.880 to help strike a match, and the only thing they 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.120 could really see is that Percy looks dead and there's 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.200 a large amount of blood on the ground around him. 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.319 A doctor gets to the scene about twelve forty am, 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:27.080 so this is, you know, thirty forty minutes afterwards, and 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.000 he says, this is interesting, Percy has appeared to be 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:34.120 dead for about ten minutes. So I looked it up. 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.880 The nineteen twenties. They just said rigor and body temperature 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.200 were used to determine time of death. Ten minutes seems 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.679 pretty specific. How would he know that? Is that based 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:45.400 on body tibe? What was it? What is that? 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:50.400 No, ten minutes. There isn't going to be anything that 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:55.360 would indicate that short duration of time. There's just no 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.000 way that doctor would be able to say he's been 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.880 dead ten minutes. Weird, you know. Of course, back back 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.480 in the day, you know, liver temperature would be used, 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.200 you know, but that's also been shown to be completely 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:13.720 unreliable because there's so many variables that impact how fast 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:19.560 a body cools. And then rigor takes longer for rigor 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.480 to form than ten minutes. You're talking on the order 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:27.520 of several hours. And that's in the smaller muscles, and 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:31.200 then it progresses into the larger muscles of the body. 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.880 So I, yeah, I'm a little bit confused as to 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.280 how this doctor is saying he's been dead ten minutes. 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.480 Yeah, that's really odd, but he confirms he's dead. 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:41.040 Okay. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:45.439 So at twelve fifty, ten minutes after that, Percy's body 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.760 has been taken to the Ilford Mortuary and an ambulance 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.400 and Edith is brought down to the police station. And 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.920 the reason she's brought down is and she's hysterical, by 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.079 the way, the reason she's brought down to the police 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.880 station is that when an ambulance it comes and they 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:06.800 start to look at Percy's body, it looks like there 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.400 are cuts and not I just fell down and gashed 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.600 my head. Cuts, like actual cuts on his body, Okay, 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.720 which is alarming of course to you know, the doctors 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.040 with the ambulance and then the police show up. So 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:24.280 I have more information about that. We just know we 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.560 have an hysterical wife who is saying her husband fell 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.000 in hit his head, and then you've got a dead 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.520 man who has been taken and he's in his early thirties. 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.440 So the cuts, you want information about the cuts? Once 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.080 they get all his clothes off and start examining him. 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:44.200 Yeah, are these cuts to his head? You know? Part 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:49.360 of in listening to this is when you start dealing 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:54.920 with like paramedics. You know, they're not forensic pathologists, and 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.320 of course they've got exposure to a wide variety of different, 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.480 you know, types of injury. But are they truly assessing 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:07.520 the nature of this injurre Oftentimes people will think somebody 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.120 has been cut and it's actually a laceration from a blow. 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:15.960 It's the skin has been split. A pathologist knows how 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:21.960 to diagnose the differences between an incision and laceration. So 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:27.200 if these cuts are just about Percy's head, I would 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.880 go are they lacerations? And do you have multiple blows 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.400 occurring to his head? But now if you have what 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:36.600 appear to be cuts to other parts of the body, 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.920 that's inconsistent with what Edith said happened. 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.320 We'll talk about inconsistencies. Let's go through this. So I 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.160 had said before the doctor had said about fifteen cuts 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.600 on his body. Okay, So when his clothes are removed, 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.800 the corner says that all but three of the cuts 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.560 are superficial. So most of the superficial cuts were on 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:05.160 his face and on his Torso there are three deep 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.640 cuts and here there right There's a cut measuring three 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.360 and one quarter inches long on the inside of his forearm. 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.520 There's a stab wound at the back of the neck 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.760 two inches deep and one in a quarter inch wide, 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:24.760 which was toward the side ending near the right ear. 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.400 And there's a stab wound on the right side of 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:31.480 the throat which was one inch long and two and 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.000 a quarter inches deep. This cut penetrated both the carotted 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.280 artery and the jugular vein. So those are his injuries. 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:40.760 What do you think homicide? 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.400 Is that your expert opinion? Homicide? 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.680 You know, the twelve roughly twelve superficial cuts to the 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:50.320 face and torso, you know, it appears that would tend 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.640 to suggest that you have a sharp edged weapon, and 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.760 the superficial nature. I'm not sure why those are just 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:03.200 superficial unless there's actually I could see a struggle between 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.639 Percy and the offender and the knife is just not 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.639 getting close enough to cause deeper cuts to the face 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:15.160 or torso area. The deep and eat very long incision 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:19.800 to his forearm that is entirely consistent with a type 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:23.639 of defensive injury, as Percy's trying to ward off a knife. 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:25.800 Unless the knife just happens to cut, you know, just 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:28.960 randomly cut hit his forearm. But then when you have 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:30.840 the stab to the back of the neck and the 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.720 stab to the right throat, you know, obviously this is 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.520 a in all likelihood an intentional act to kill eat. 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:41.280 A story is completely wrong, just completely wrong. So what 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:42.159 the hell's going on? 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:44.359 Well, let me tell you before you get all on 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:46.320 top of the Edith here, let me tell you more 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:50.479 information about the blood boy. You target people so early 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:55.280 polls for Edith. Okay, let me tell you what. The 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.760 police they go back after they get all this information, 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:59.960 they go back to the crime scene. Because we have 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.400 real police officers, thank goodness, in London in nineteen twenty two. 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.040 We're not talking about like the Bow Street Runners or 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.760 this is not that long ago. So we have an 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.520 organized police force, the Metropolitan Police. So they go back 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.080 to the street corner to figure out what happened. I 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.720 can't emphasize this enough. It's very dark, you know, there's 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.520 just no lamps anywhere. It's three in the morning, and 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:25.240 they can see now using torches flashlights that the coverage 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.160 of the bleeding. There's a trail of blood about forty 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.280 four feet long. I mean, I know, I talk to 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.080 you sometimes about distance and me being confused by distance, 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.480 But forty four feet seems like a long distance to 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.680 me from the street corner up the road. 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:45.359 So Percy's got some significant bleeding injuries the forearm and 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.600 the neck wounds right, and the superficial cuts may or 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.560 may not be significantly bleeding. So is this, you know, 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:58.119 Percy after being stabbed, stumbling and falling. Is this the 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:03.280 offender during a stab cutting himself and you know, running away? 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:05.919 So that's, you know what I'm tossing around in my 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.280 head right now and waiting to hear more information about this. 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.280 It looks like he's trying to get home because the 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.760 end of this trail is about one hundred yards from 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.600 his house, which is at forty one Kensington Gardens. It's 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:22.960 a Victorian townhouse. So what they're saying is that there's 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:25.560 this trail forty four feet long from the street corner 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:29.159 up the road, and it starts and stops pooling about 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.760 every three feet, So I think exactly what you're talking about. 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.320 Then at the end of the trail there's a big puddle, 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.439 and that's where they think he was stabbed in the throat. 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.199 So tell me if this is something they could really know. 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.600 They said, it looks like the blood spurted out in 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:48.040 a six foot arc six feet and then nearby at 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:51.000 the garden wall he was found slumped against. There's more blood, 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.200 including a puddle, which is the vomiting that they think 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:56.840 people heard after the cut to his throat began to 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.840 fill his stomach with blood. Okay, does that all make 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:01.480 it to you? Six foot arc? 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:06.359 Gosh, yeah, you know there's because you have the stab 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.000 wound that goes through the carotid artery. When the heart 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:14.760 is still beating, of course, there's pressure within the arterial system, 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.320 and when there is a cut a breach in an artery, 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.959 if circumstances are right, when the heart beats the next time, 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.840 the blood instead of going through the artery, sprays out 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:31.639 of the artery. And so this is what we call 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:36.000 it an arterial spurt. And so this arcing pattern might 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.200 suggest that that's what that is. It also could be 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.159 something like with this forearm injury, if he's got the 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:47.199 significant bleeding from his forearm, him moving his arm is 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:50.199 going to cause a cast off what we call a 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.280 cast off pattern, and that also could potentially look like 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:56.760 this arct pattern just depending on his movement. 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:02.520 Well, I mean, this just sounds like a nightmare. They 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.360 say the attack began at Belgrave Road, which is where 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:07.560 they were, and you know, like I said, it was 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.400 about ended about one hundred yards from the house. They 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:12.600 said that the couple had followed Belgrave Road from the 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:15.280 train station and then they were about to turn on 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:20.119 to Kensington Gardens. So again really dark area. And the 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.080 house is in an area that has front gardens, which 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.120 I love. They have little walls, some of them have hedges, 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:29.320