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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Vakate. How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm great, Paul, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I am doing really good.

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Speaker 1: I have a big sports story for you. Not really,

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Speaker 1: it's big for our family. One of my girls, Quinn,

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Speaker 1: is a big athlete. She loves basically every sport. We

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Speaker 1: are not a basketball family, okay, we just you know,

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Speaker 1: I played soccer, Quinn plays volleyball. She's great at volleyball.

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Speaker 1: You know, We've done a lot of different sports. Basketball

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Speaker 1: has never been one of them. Did your kids ever

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Speaker 1: play basketball or did you ever play basketball? And no, tall,

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Speaker 1: short jokes whatever you're about to say, not being qualified

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Speaker 1: to play basketball because of your height.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, during I would say, like the sixth

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Speaker 2: to eighth grade, basketball is my favorite sport.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: I was out in San Antonio and there was a

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Speaker 2: basketball hoop out there on the street and I would

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Speaker 2: go and do like one hundred labs with my right hand,

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Speaker 2: hundred labs with my left hand, you know, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of pickup games and never played it after that,

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Speaker 2: you know, So I have experience with basketball. I kind

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Speaker 2: of wish I had done it in high school, you know,

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Speaker 2: instead ended up playing football, and my body just did

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Speaker 2: not hold up very well to football.

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Speaker 1: So football ruined you essentially for other sports.

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Speaker 2: Is yes, that pretty much. I had a my junior

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Speaker 2: year during hell week, you know, helmet to helmet collision,

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Speaker 2: you know, the pick a hole, and ended up getting

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Speaker 2: a pretty significant concussion.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: I still get what I call my concussion headache today,

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Speaker 2: which is right here. This is a weird thing, And

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Speaker 2: in hindsight, I am very happy that I did not

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Speaker 2: continue to play football because in you know, what kind

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Speaker 2: of injuries or even concussive effects would I have now

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Speaker 2: that I'm getting older.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, I mean, how awful, awful awful, And your

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Speaker 1: kids did not play in high school? I assume no.

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Speaker 2: You know, my older kids they both played volleyball, My

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Speaker 2: oldest daughter played water polo o. My younger kids just

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Speaker 2: never took up sports. They just were not interested in it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well I have one kid like that, and then Quinn,

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Speaker 1: who will play anything. So Quinn got talked into playing

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Speaker 1: basketball because she's friends with these two seniors who were

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Speaker 1: wonderful and they're on the basketball team, and they said,

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Speaker 1: you know, you need to come play basketball. So she said, okay,

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Speaker 1: I've never played before. We'll go to the park and

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Speaker 1: shoot hoops a little bit. But neither of us. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm not good. She's not particularly good either, so she

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Speaker 1: is petrified to play. I think it was the second game.

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Speaker 1: I was sitting there watching her and I was talking

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Speaker 1: to one of the other parents, and I saw her

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Speaker 1: sitting next to the head coach, listening to him really intently,

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Speaker 1: and he had a notepad, and I asked one of

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Speaker 1: the parents, who's really into basketball? I said, what's happening?

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Speaker 1: And she said that the coach is teaching your kid

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Speaker 1: how to play right before she goes on because she

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Speaker 1: didn't know the difference fall between offense and defense in

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Speaker 1: terms of basketball. She didn't understand. Yeah, so I said

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Speaker 1: to her, I gave her the ageous device I could

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Speaker 1: come up with, which is win in out, steal the ball,

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Speaker 1: don't touch the person, but steal the ball and get

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Speaker 1: it to somebody who can shoot. Because I think it's

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Speaker 1: unrealistic for her to think that she's going to be

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Speaker 1: shooting three pointers immediately. We have to kind of build

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Speaker 1: up to that. Yeah, and the coach of Green with

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Speaker 1: my technique, and so we said that's a good idea.

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Speaker 1: So she's playing. She's playing, she's doing what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: She's not really stealing the ball, but when she does

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Speaker 1: get the ball, she's feeding it to the right people.

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Speaker 1: So there's three seconds left and we are just getting killed.

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Speaker 1: Like it's pretty awful. I think it's like ten to

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Speaker 1: forty eight or something else. Really Okay, yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: really bad. But she's just happy to be on the

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Speaker 1: court and just trying to figure out the way this

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Speaker 1: game works. And all of her friends says she's doing

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Speaker 1: a good job. So she's on the court. There's three

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Speaker 1: seconds left. There's somebody I don't remember the technical term.

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Speaker 1: What is it when you get the ball and you go,

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Speaker 1: you know, across the line and then you like throw

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Speaker 1: it in, you do like a chess throw or whatever

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Speaker 1: in and then the person on your team can throw

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Speaker 1: and could shoot. What is that? What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Taking an inbound or something like that?

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Speaker 2: Inbound pass? Yeah, for sure, I think that's what you're

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Speaker 2: talking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So her teammates on the sideline with the ball

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Speaker 1: and their team is crowded up. The kids who are

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Speaker 1: on the court are all crowded up. There's three seconds left,

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Speaker 1: and the girl looks at Quinn, her teammate, and starts saying,

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Speaker 1: I'm going, oh god, Quinn's going to get the ball,

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Speaker 1: and there's three seconds left. Maybe she can turn and

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Speaker 1: shoot and salvage something from this terrible game. So the

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Speaker 1: clock starts, the girl has the ball, she looks at Quinn.

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Speaker 1: She passes Quinn the ball, and Quinn ducks.

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Speaker 2: Of course she does.

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Speaker 1: I've never seen that happen before. And the buzzer is

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Speaker 1: so dramatic, and then the buzzer goes off and I

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Speaker 1: started laughing, and luckily her coach laughed too. You know,

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Speaker 1: we were like a smart art school. The sports is

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Speaker 1: not their big priority. We love sports, but you know,

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Speaker 1: we give that same kind of energy to like the

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Speaker 1: art shows and the bands that they have. So sure,

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Speaker 1: luckily nobody really ribbed her too much about it. But

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I mean when she did that, I

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Speaker 1: just thought, that's my kid. Boy, she just and then

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Speaker 1: she said she got into the car and she said, Paul,

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Speaker 1: she said, it's three seconds. What am I supposed to

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Speaker 1: do it through? Was I really supposed to take a shot?

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Speaker 1: And I said, yes, you weren't. You were supposed to

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Speaker 1: do a shot.

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Speaker 2: For her, though, you know, that's that's a tough position

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Speaker 2: to be put in.

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Speaker 1: I know. And she said, well, I didn't think she

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Speaker 1: was throwing it to me at all. And I said, okay,

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Speaker 1: well I understand that, but when you done right, well

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Speaker 1: I thought that was funny. It was a very typical

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Speaker 1: kind of Quinn story that was lovely.

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Speaker 2: No, yeah, when and yeah, I would say, like basketball,

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Speaker 2: the worst injury I ever got from basketball was the

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Speaker 2: ball to the nose. Oh that hurts so bad. You know,

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Speaker 2: it bangs off the rim and now it hits the

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Speaker 2: square in the face. You're done at that point. Fortunately,

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Speaker 2: I never broke my nose as a result, but I

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Speaker 2: had that happen several times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a bad a couple of bad injuries

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Speaker 1: with soccer. I mean I felt like, you know, I

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Speaker 1: had a separated shoulder and broken ankle, broken foot, things

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Speaker 1: like that. But yeah, I don't know Quinn. She's gotten

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Speaker 1: better for sure. But when she ducked, I just thought,

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Speaker 1: that's she's comic relief. I think for sports.

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Speaker 2: Teams, is she going to be continuing to play? Is

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Speaker 2: this something that's ongoing?

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Speaker 1: Then the seniors are making her so yes, I think.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So then we ended up playing a team where it

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Speaker 1: was reversed. I mean, we really like ended up stomping

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Speaker 1: this team and they were great sports about it. She

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Speaker 1: ended up scoring, and I kind of think she's like,

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Speaker 1: that's great. And I told my friend, I said, this

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Speaker 1: is like Vegas. You know, she hit the jackpot one time,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully she'll continue to go back, but there's no

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Speaker 1: guarantee depending on the team, so you know, she'll try

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Speaker 1: any sport essentially, But she's excited her sister doing rock climbing.

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Speaker 1: She's in a rock climbing club. So yeah, okay. One

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Speaker 1: of the things that my kiddos. Love is. We spent

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Speaker 1: a part of our summer in London every year, and

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Speaker 1: they do all kinds of activities outside, and we are,

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Speaker 1: for this story going to be in London, nineteen twenty two, London.

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Speaker 1: So you and I to go back to London where

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Speaker 1: we were.

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Speaker 2: That's great. You know, I've gotten to know London a

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Speaker 2: little bit better since you and I met up there,

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Speaker 2: and you were with me when the hotel caught fire, right,

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Speaker 2: that was dramatic.

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Speaker 1: I don't know was it that dramatic? I can't remember

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Speaker 1: was it really? I guess it was.

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Speaker 2: You had the fire engines coming, they had their homeland

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Speaker 2: the equivalent of their homeland security people showing up being honest, like,

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Speaker 2: are we dealing with a terrorist act here? You know

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Speaker 2: which over in London. That's that's something. But then we

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Speaker 2: all end up petting to a bar and waiting the

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Speaker 2: fire out.

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Speaker 1: It was a pub, but yes, that's exactly what.

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Speaker 2: We same thing. Speaking of which, I got my bourbon

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Speaker 2: for this episode, so.

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Speaker 1: Oh you did? You did your American bourbon for this

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Speaker 1: very British story.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, they need to have more more bourbon

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Speaker 2: over in London. There's too much Scotch.

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Speaker 1: I can't even get into the difference because I'm clueless

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Speaker 1: about the difference and frankly not that interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you don't like bourbon, you would struggle with

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Speaker 2: Scotch at all likelihood.

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Speaker 1: I struggle with all hard liquor. They're not my friends

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Speaker 1: for sure. Okay, Well, I'm going to get a cider

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Speaker 1: and we're going to head to London and let me

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Speaker 1: set the scene. We are in nineteen twenty two UK,

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Speaker 1: and this is a story about a couple and their

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Speaker 1: relationship and kind of what ends up happening, and the

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Speaker 1: police really trying to piece some things together. It's just

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Speaker 1: after midnight. It's Wednesday, October fourth, nineteen twenty two, and

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Speaker 1: there's a young married couple named Edith and Percy Thompson.

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Speaker 1: You gotta love a good Percy. We don't get a

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Speaker 1: lot of Percy's here in the United States, I think, right.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, I can think of one football player

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Speaker 2: Minnesota Viking, Percy Harvin. Okay, that's probably the only purse. No,

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Speaker 2: I can think of somebody in high school. I think

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Speaker 2: I was also Percy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, very old school name, or at least in the

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Speaker 1: United States.

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Speaker 2: I think it would be ye.

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Speaker 1: So Edith and Percy are walking home from a trains

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Speaker 1: to their house in the London suburb of Ilford after

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Speaker 1: an evening out of the theater. You know, they're pretty

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Speaker 1: close in age. Edith is twenty eight and Percy is

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Speaker 1: thirty three. So getting right to the incident, here witnesses

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Speaker 1: here a woman's scream and she says, according to some witnesses,

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Speaker 1: she says, oh dear, what should I do? My husband

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Speaker 1: has fallen and cut his head. And they also then

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Speaker 1: hear the sound of vomiting. If we take this at

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Speaker 1: face value, I don't think we've talked about this before.

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Speaker 1: What happens to your body to trigger vomiting when you've

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Speaker 1: had some kind of a head injury. What is that exactly?

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Speaker 2: You're really testing my medical knowledge on this question. It's

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, when you start talking about, you know,

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Speaker 2: that nauseous feeling, I think there's a lot of things

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Speaker 2: that could cause that. You know, first of course, maybe

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Speaker 2: a brain injury, traumatic brain injury, but also you know,

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Speaker 2: there's weird things like with the cranial nerves, like like

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Speaker 2: there's a vagual nerve reflex where you can have all

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Speaker 2: sorts of different types of reactions to injury, whether it

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Speaker 2: be like to your neck, and that's something where the

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Speaker 2: medical evaluation would have to consider all sorts of different

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Speaker 2: things for this symptom. You know, it's if it truly

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Speaker 2: is a result of this traumatic you know, this fall

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Speaker 2: where it's at least significant enough that there's a laceration

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Speaker 2: on the scalp and you've got you know, this vomiting

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Speaker 2: that's occurring pretty quickly afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so sorry for testing your medical knowledge. Ball. We'll

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Speaker 1: see what comes of this though. Yeah, I understand, and

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Speaker 1: you know. So they hear the sound of vomiting. Edith

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Speaker 1: rushes to find some people to come to help, and

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Speaker 1: she finds two people who have also been walking back

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Speaker 1: from this train around midnight. She says, come quickly. She says,

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Speaker 1: her husband's blood is all over her. And they get

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Speaker 1: back to Percy. He's laying the ground, he is bleeding heavily,

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Speaker 1: and one of them runs to get a nearby doctor.

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Speaker 1: So the street is very dark, so I would assume

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Speaker 1: no street lights. One of the people who's come back

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Speaker 1: to help strike a match, and the only thing they

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Speaker 1: could really see is that Percy looks dead and there's

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Speaker 1: a large amount of blood on the ground around him.

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Speaker 1: A doctor gets to the scene about twelve forty am,

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Speaker 1: so this is, you know, thirty forty minutes afterwards, and

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Speaker 1: he says, this is interesting, Percy has appeared to be

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Speaker 1: dead for about ten minutes. So I looked it up.

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Speaker 1: The nineteen twenties. They just said rigor and body temperature

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Speaker 1: were used to determine time of death. Ten minutes seems

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Speaker 1: pretty specific. How would he know that? Is that based

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Speaker 1: on body tibe? What was it? What is that?

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Speaker 2: No, ten minutes. There isn't going to be anything that

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Speaker 2: would indicate that short duration of time. There's just no

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Speaker 2: way that doctor would be able to say he's been

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Speaker 2: dead ten minutes. Weird, you know. Of course, back back

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Speaker 2: in the day, you know, liver temperature would be used,

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Speaker 2: you know, but that's also been shown to be completely

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Speaker 2: unreliable because there's so many variables that impact how fast

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Speaker 2: a body cools. And then rigor takes longer for rigor

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Speaker 2: to form than ten minutes. You're talking on the order

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Speaker 2: of several hours. And that's in the smaller muscles, and

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Speaker 2: then it progresses into the larger muscles of the body.

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Speaker 2: So I, yeah, I'm a little bit confused as to

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Speaker 2: how this doctor is saying he's been dead ten minutes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really odd, but he confirms he's dead.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So at twelve fifty, ten minutes after that, Percy's body

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Speaker 1: has been taken to the Ilford Mortuary and an ambulance

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Speaker 1: and Edith is brought down to the police station. And

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Speaker 1: the reason she's brought down is and she's hysterical, by

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Speaker 1: the way, the reason she's brought down to the police

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Speaker 1: station is that when an ambulance it comes and they

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Speaker 1: start to look at Percy's body, it looks like there

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Speaker 1: are cuts and not I just fell down and gashed

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Speaker 1: my head. Cuts, like actual cuts on his body, Okay,

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Speaker 1: which is alarming of course to you know, the doctors

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Speaker 1: with the ambulance and then the police show up. So

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Speaker 1: I have more information about that. We just know we

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Speaker 1: have an hysterical wife who is saying her husband fell

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Speaker 1: in hit his head, and then you've got a dead

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Speaker 1: man who has been taken and he's in his early thirties.

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Speaker 1: So the cuts, you want information about the cuts? Once

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Speaker 1: they get all his clothes off and start examining him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, are these cuts to his head? You know? Part

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Speaker 2: of in listening to this is when you start dealing

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Speaker 2: with like paramedics. You know, they're not forensic pathologists, and

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Speaker 2: of course they've got exposure to a wide variety of different,

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Speaker 2: you know, types of injury. But are they truly assessing

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Speaker 2: the nature of this injurre Oftentimes people will think somebody

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Speaker 2: has been cut and it's actually a laceration from a blow.

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Speaker 2: It's the skin has been split. A pathologist knows how

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Speaker 2: to diagnose the differences between an incision and laceration. So

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Speaker 2: if these cuts are just about Percy's head, I would

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Speaker 2: go are they lacerations? And do you have multiple blows

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Speaker 2: occurring to his head? But now if you have what

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Speaker 2: appear to be cuts to other parts of the body,

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Speaker 2: that's inconsistent with what Edith said happened.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about inconsistencies. Let's go through this. So I

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Speaker 1: had said before the doctor had said about fifteen cuts

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Speaker 1: on his body. Okay, So when his clothes are removed,

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Speaker 1: the corner says that all but three of the cuts

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Speaker 1: are superficial. So most of the superficial cuts were on

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Speaker 1: his face and on his Torso there are three deep

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Speaker 1: cuts and here there right There's a cut measuring three

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Speaker 1: and one quarter inches long on the inside of his forearm.

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Speaker 1: There's a stab wound at the back of the neck

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Speaker 1: two inches deep and one in a quarter inch wide,

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Speaker 1: which was toward the side ending near the right ear.

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Speaker 1: And there's a stab wound on the right side of

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Speaker 1: the throat which was one inch long and two and

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Speaker 1: a quarter inches deep. This cut penetrated both the carotted

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Speaker 1: artery and the jugular vein. So those are his injuries.

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Speaker 2: What do you think homicide?

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Speaker 1: Is that your expert opinion? Homicide?

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Speaker 2: You know, the twelve roughly twelve superficial cuts to the

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Speaker 2: face and torso, you know, it appears that would tend

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Speaker 2: to suggest that you have a sharp edged weapon, and

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Speaker 2: the superficial nature. I'm not sure why those are just

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Speaker 2: superficial unless there's actually I could see a struggle between

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Speaker 2: Percy and the offender and the knife is just not

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Speaker 2: getting close enough to cause deeper cuts to the face

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Speaker 2: or torso area. The deep and eat very long incision

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Speaker 2: to his forearm that is entirely consistent with a type

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Speaker 2: of defensive injury, as Percy's trying to ward off a knife.

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Speaker 2: Unless the knife just happens to cut, you know, just

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Speaker 2: randomly cut hit his forearm. But then when you have

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Speaker 2: the stab to the back of the neck and the

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Speaker 2: stab to the right throat, you know, obviously this is

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Speaker 2: a in all likelihood an intentional act to kill eat.

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Speaker 2: A story is completely wrong, just completely wrong. So what

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Speaker 2: the hell's going on?

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Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you before you get all on

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Speaker 1: top of the Edith here, let me tell you more

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Speaker 1: information about the blood boy. You target people so early

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Speaker 1: polls for Edith. Okay, let me tell you what. The

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Speaker 1: police they go back after they get all this information,

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Speaker 1: they go back to the crime scene. Because we have

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Speaker 1: real police officers, thank goodness, in London in nineteen twenty two.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about like the Bow Street Runners or

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Speaker 1: this is not that long ago. So we have an

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Speaker 1: organized police force, the Metropolitan Police. So they go back

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Speaker 1: to the street corner to figure out what happened. I

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Speaker 1: can't emphasize this enough. It's very dark, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: just no lamps anywhere. It's three in the morning, and

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Speaker 1: they can see now using torches flashlights that the coverage

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Speaker 1: of the bleeding. There's a trail of blood about forty

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Speaker 1: four feet long. I mean, I know, I talk to

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Speaker 1: you sometimes about distance and me being confused by distance,

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Speaker 1: But forty four feet seems like a long distance to

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Speaker 1: me from the street corner up the road.

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Speaker 2: So Percy's got some significant bleeding injuries the forearm and

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Speaker 2: the neck wounds right, and the superficial cuts may or

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Speaker 2: may not be significantly bleeding. So is this, you know,

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Speaker 2: Percy after being stabbed, stumbling and falling. Is this the

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Speaker 2: offender during a stab cutting himself and you know, running away?

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Speaker 2: So that's, you know what I'm tossing around in my

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Speaker 2: head right now and waiting to hear more information about this.

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Speaker 1: It looks like he's trying to get home because the

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Speaker 1: end of this trail is about one hundred yards from

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Speaker 1: his house, which is at forty one Kensington Gardens. It's

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Speaker 1: a Victorian townhouse. So what they're saying is that there's

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Speaker 1: this trail forty four feet long from the street corner

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Speaker 1: up the road, and it starts and stops pooling about

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Speaker 1: every three feet, So I think exactly what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Then at the end of the trail there's a big puddle,

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Speaker 1: and that's where they think he was stabbed in the throat.

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Speaker 1: So tell me if this is something they could really know.

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Speaker 1: They said, it looks like the blood spurted out in

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Speaker 1: a six foot arc six feet and then nearby at

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Speaker 1: the garden wall he was found slumped against. There's more blood,

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Speaker 1: including a puddle, which is the vomiting that they think

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Speaker 1: people heard after the cut to his throat began to

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Speaker 1: fill his stomach with blood. Okay, does that all make

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Speaker 1: it to you? Six foot arc?

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Speaker 2: Gosh, yeah, you know there's because you have the stab

379
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 2: wound that goes through the carotid artery. When the heart

380
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Speaker 2: is still beating, of course, there's pressure within the arterial system,

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Speaker 2: and when there is a cut a breach in an artery,

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Speaker 2: if circumstances are right, when the heart beats the next time,

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Speaker 2: the blood instead of going through the artery, sprays out

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Speaker 2: of the artery. And so this is what we call

385
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Speaker 2: it an arterial spurt. And so this arcing pattern might

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Speaker 2: suggest that that's what that is. It also could be

387
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Speaker 2: something like with this forearm injury, if he's got the

388
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Speaker 2: significant bleeding from his forearm, him moving his arm is

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Speaker 2: going to cause a cast off what we call a

390
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 2: cast off pattern, and that also could potentially look like

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Speaker 2: this arct pattern just depending on his movement.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, this just sounds like a nightmare. They

393
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Speaker 1: say the attack began at Belgrave Road, which is where

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Speaker 1: they were, and you know, like I said, it was

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Speaker 1: about ended about one hundred yards from the house. They

396
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Speaker 1: said that the couple had followed Belgrave Road from the

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Speaker 1: train station and then they were about to turn on

398
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Speaker 1: to Kensington Gardens. So again really dark area. And the

399
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Speaker 1: house is in an area that has front gardens, which

400
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Speaker 1: I love. They have little walls, some of them have hedges,

401
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 1: great places to hide, and the hedges have a little

402
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Speaker 1: cutout so that you can kind of like somebody could

403
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Speaker 1: squat down. And it looks like the police are saying

404
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 1: whoever attacked Percy waited in one of these little sort

405
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Speaker 1: of like alcove cut out things at a house on

406
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Speaker 1: Belgrave Road and then attacked him there. So then the

407
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Speaker 1: police of course want to talk to Edith. So now

408
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Speaker 1: we have to figure out if Edith's story makes sense.

409
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Speaker 2: Well, he didn't fall down and hit his head.

410
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Speaker 1: No he didn't. But it's dark, Paul, maybe she doesn't know. Maybe,

411
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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's pitch black. They said they're.

412
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Speaker 2: Walking together right now. Stabbings can be shockingly fast in

413
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Speaker 2: terms of the amount of time it takes to commit.

414
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Speaker 2: And you know when when people often see numerous stab

415
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Speaker 2: wounds are thinking this was a prolonged attack. Well, just

416
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Speaker 2: watch a jail shanking. You know, the surveillance cameras pick

417
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: up the victim being approached and next thing you know,

418
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Speaker 2: ten stab wounds are done in a blink of an eye.

419
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Speaker 2: I think about Edith's statement, It's like, well, is it

420
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Speaker 2: possible that you know, at a certain point, you know,

421
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Speaker 2: an offender could have come up and very quickly attack

422
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Speaker 2: Percy with a knife and Edith not be aware that

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Speaker 2: this is happening. I wantn't rule out that possibility, considering

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Speaker 2: how you've stated that this is a very dark alley

425
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Speaker 2: and then Percy the blood trail with you know, in

426
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Speaker 2: all likelihood, after this arct pattern, you're going to have

427
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: a lot of drip pattern. And then you say there's

428
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 2: small blood pools when he's pausing, and now you have

429
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 2: bleeding injuries that are stationary over this location for a

430
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 2: period of time because he suffered a mortal injury, right,

431
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 2: he is slowly bleeding out as he's struggling to get home.

432
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Speaker 2: How does Edith not really observe that aspect of Percy's movements.

433
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 2: Now at the very end, if he collapses, then her

434
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: statement of yeah, he fell down and hit his head

435
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 2: is possibly an accurate statement. You mentioned at the beginning

436
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 2: that there is vomiting. Was that Percy vomiting or was

437
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 2: that Edith vomiting?

438
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: Well, the police that gets him because of there's blood

439
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: all in it, but don't know, we'll see if we

440
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: get more information about that. So they were saying blood

441
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 1: was going seeping into his stomach and that was causing

442
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: his vomiting. It just seems awful.

443
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 2: What some of these victims experience is horrific in terms

444
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 2: of lungs filling up with blood there you know, every

445
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 2: time they're trying to breathe, you know, they're expiring blood

446
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 2: and they're trying to suck in air and they you know,

447
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 2: it's imagine how miserable that would be in the last

448
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: moments of your life.

449
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: It's awful. Well, let me tell you as we continue on.

450
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: So this is Edith, this is Edith's story to hang

451
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: on tight. It's interesting. So the very early morning hours,

452
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: the police take her to her house and they want

453
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: to get her story about what she saw that night,

454
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: she appears really shaken, She's dazed. Her clothing is caked

455
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 1: with blood. It's all over her, all over her handbag,

456
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: all over the contents inside the handbag, which the police

457
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: look inside, you know, just in case, but there's nothing

458
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: in there, but everything in there has blood all over.

459
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: So Edith says to the officer who walks her initially

460
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: to the house, they're going to blame me for this. Uh,

461
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: I would think, yes, of course, They're like, you're the

462
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: only person in your story. Doesn't make any sense. But

463
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 1: she says that immediately, and then she talks about what

464
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: her side of the story is. So what do you

465
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: think so far?

466
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: Well, I think because the just the huge inconsistency between

467
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: what she said happened and what they're finding truly happened

468
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 2: to Percy. It's now they have to get to the

469
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 2: bottom of why is she so wrong, you know? And

470
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 2: is this an intentional thing that she's saying to mislead

471
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 2: police or is there a true explanation for how wrong

472
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: she is, you know? And that's what you have to

473
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 2: kind of tease out from her statements.

474
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so she's covered in blood. Everything that she has

475
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: is covered in blood. She says, they're going to blame

476
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: me for this. She says to the officer walking her home,

477
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 1: we were just coming home from the theater and walking along.

478
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: My husband said, oh, then fell against me. I said,

479
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: bear up, thinking that he had had one of his attacks.

480
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: She says that he has heart issues and I don't

481
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: know if that's an arrhythmia or what that means, but

482
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: sometimes he'll sort of like you know, freeze up or fall,

483
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 1: but he always recovers. And she basically said, suck it,

484
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: it's fine. She said that we walked a little further,

485
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: he fell against the wall and slid to the ground.

486
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: She said that he would recover from these little attacks

487
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: without getting any medical attention from a doctor. But of

488
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: course the police in their heads say this makes no sense,

489
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,719
Speaker 1: and the officer doesn't say anything and just listens to her,

490
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: essentially because they know there's blood everywhere, so there's more

491
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: suspicion of course around Edith. And she makes another statement,

492
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: and this is one where she's now picking up on

493
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: the fact that the bleeding is an important part of

494
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: this story and she needs to address the bleeding. She says,

495
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: we were coming along Belgrave Road, just past the corner

496
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: of Inslee Gardens, and I heard him say oh, and

497
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: he fell against me. I put out my arms to

498
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: save him and found blood, which I thought was coming

499
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: from his mouth. I tried to help him up. He

500
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: staggered for several yards toward Kensington Gardens and then fell

501
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: against the wall and slid down. He did not speak

502
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: to me. I cannot say if I spoke to him.

503
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,239
Speaker 1: I felt him, found his clothing wet with blood. He

504
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: never moved after he fell. And then she says, we

505
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: had no quarrel on the way. We were quite happy

506
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: you together. Immediately I saw blood, I ran across the

507
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: street to the doctors. I appealed to a lady and

508
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: a gentleman who were passing, and the gentleman also went

509
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: to the doctors. The doctor came and told me my

510
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: husband was dead. Just before he fell down, I was

511
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: walking on his right hand side, on the inside of

512
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: the pavement, nearest the wall. We were side by side.

513
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: I did not see anybody about at the time. My

514
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: husband and I were talking about going to a dance.

515
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: All of that information kind of all in one statement,

516
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 1: which again seems odd. What do you think about all that?

517
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: Well, believe it or not. I can see where some

518
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: of what Edith is saying could line up really. Percy

519
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 2: walking and he goes, oh, you know, is he being

520
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 2: stabbed in the neck? Right? Most people, I shouldn't say

521
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: most people. I actually talked to a stabbing victim who

522
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: was a friend of my first wife, and he had

523
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: been out walking and got basically robbed and stabbed. He

524
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: had no idea he had been stabbed. Oh ye, he said,

525
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 2: it felt like punches. And this has to do with

526
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: your internal organs. The pain nerves aren't set up to

527
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 2: register like cutting injuries. They're set up to register like expansion. Yeah,

528
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: you know. That's why when you get really bloated, it

529
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: can really hurt. So Percy could have been stabbed in

530
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: the neck not realize he had been stabbed. But he's,

531
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 2: you know, receiving what would ultimately be a fatal injury

532
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: with the jugular and crowded being severed on one side

533
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: of his neck. That aspect, if it truly, is just

534
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: somebody pops out from the shadows and stabs Percy and

535
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: somehow Edith doesn't see that. That is I think plausible.

536
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: But she has twelve superficial incisive injuries to his face

537
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: and torso you know, he has a large, incisive injury

538
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: to his forearm. You know, it seems like there's a

539
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: little bit more prolonged interaction between the stabber and Percy

540
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: that I still have a hard time seeing Edith not,

541
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: you know, at least observing some aspect of that interaction.

542
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: That's going to be important for us to establish with

543
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: the story. I think, how much do we think that

544
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: Edith knew? So you're saying that there is some sort

545
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: of like possibility that Edith might not know what's going on.

546
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: You're saying that her story is more plausible than it

547
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: was before, but we're not saying we believe her one

548
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: hundred percent, right.

549
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm still struggling to correlate Edith's lack of observing

550
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: Percy having an interaction with somebody that is stabbing him

551
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: for the amount of injuries that he has.

552
00:29:58,320 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

553
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: Fifteen of Edith's statement is, you know she's talking about

554
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: at certain points like Percy ends up slumping down, you know,

555
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: is that location consistent with the blood trail? You know,

556
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: because she's not going to know the blood patterns at

557
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: this scene. You know, she may observe blood, but she

558
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: doesn't have the expertise to actually know what what the

559
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: blood patterns mean. So you know, she's saying, Percy slumps

560
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: down at a certain location. Okay, now do I have

561
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: a drip pattern there? Do I have pooled blood at

562
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: that location that would support it, would corroborate Edith's statement?

563
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: Doesn't sound like they followed through with that type of assessment.

564
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: Edith having blood all over her as well as on

565
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: items within her purse, is that what you had indicated? Yeah? Yeah,

566
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: So of course, now there has to be a question

567
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: as to Okay, how did she interact with Percy after

568
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: he's received bleeding injuries? Is there you know, because a

569
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: loved one, you're going to go up and you're possibly

570
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: going to be touched, hugging, you know, blood is on

571
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: your hands. You're diving into your purse to see if

572
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: there's anything that you know could help you know the situation.

573
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 2: You know, that's where doing a proper interview is so critical.

574
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: Does she have an explanation for the types of blood

575
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: patterns and the locations of the blood patterns that are

576
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: on her person?

577
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: Well, there's more information, so let's let's go through it.

578
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: Of course there is.

579
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,239
Speaker 1: Okay, now the police who have talked to Edith and

580
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: gotten her wacky story. I want to go back to

581
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 1: the scene now that the sun is up and they

582
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: can actually see. As the sun rises on Wednesday, the

583
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: press of course descends and I'm a contaminated area. I'm

584
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: sure I don't think they had yellow tape. At that

585
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: point they are looking at the bloody pavement on Belgrave Road,

586
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: and the investigators really start looking more at the Thompson's

587
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: and who they are. So this is what we know.

588
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: Edith had grown up in East London, in the suburbs

589
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: of East London, and she is the oldest of five children.

590
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: After school, she moved to London to work for a

591
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: wholesale hat shop called Carlton and Pryor. Eventually she rose

592
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: through the ranks to become the chief buyer at the company,

593
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: which is a huge deal. In nineteen sixteen, she marries

594
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: Percy and they buy a house in the London suburb

595
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: of Ilford, and Edith keeps working and she actually makes

596
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: more money than Percy does. This is kind of unconventional,

597
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: but this is, you know, the way women in the

598
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, you know, are starting to move forward in careers.

599
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: She likes to go out to London's hotels and dance halls,

600
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: and you know she likes to spend money, and she

601
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: likes to spend evenings at the theater in the cinema.

602
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: This is a couple who is close to a young

603
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: man named Fred Bywaters. He's twenty and he had been

604
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: a schoolmate of one of Edith's younger siblings. So Fred

605
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,959
Speaker 1: is twenty and Edith is twenty eight, Percy is thirty three.

606
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,479
Speaker 1: Just so we know where everybody's ages are here, at

607
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: least three people become friends. But Fred had become close

608
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: with Percy and Edith and had spent some time living

609
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: with them, and I'm sure Percy must have looked at

610
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: him as sort of like a little brother. And Percy's

611
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: brother is the one who actually tells police that they

612
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: need to talk to Fred to get some more information.

613
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: You probably know where this is heading, because you know,

614
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: you have a couple and an attractive young woman and

615
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: you know younger man who moves in. I feel like

616
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: we've done this story four or five different times. Police

617
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: find out fairly quickly that Edith and Fred had been

618
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: sleeping together and they have been for a couple of years.

619
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: From when Fred was eighteen and Edith was in her

620
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: mid twenties. And when police searched the room that Fred

621
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: used to live in, they find a love letter from Edith.

622
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: They essentially, you know, start putting some pieces together here

623
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: and again, I'm sure you know where this is heading.

624
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: The accusations that you know, Fred and or Edith did

625
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: this to get Percy out of the picture and why,

626
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: And that is one question is if that is the case,

627
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: who knew what and who did what? In a couple

628
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 1: who is under suspicion at this point.

629
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 2: Well, it's naturally something that has to be looked into,

630
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: you know, because we have seen these lover triangles that

631
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 2: is a motive for homicide, But there's plenty of you know,

632
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 2: these scenarios where you'd never have any type of issue,

633
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 2: you know, but you just have to explore Fred. Where

634
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 2: was Fred that night? You know, because as I was listening,

635
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: you know, and evaluating the information out at the crime scene,

636
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 2: I was thinking, yeah, this sounds like potentially an ambush

637
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: on Percy. But with Edith's inconsistent statements to what happened,

638
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 2: suggests that this may be something that she arranged or well,

639
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 2: actually that's where she understood what was likely going to

640
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 2: ha happened, and.

641
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: That is going to be a big question because the

642
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: death penalty is in play here in the UK in

643
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: this time period, so that'll be important. We have had

644
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: a couple of different stories involving couples. One in particular,

645
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: I remember a couple. It was a man and a

646
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: woman having an affair. Do you remember this? And the

647
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: intended victim had been he was a real jerk. He

648
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: was like the head of a gambling hall, and he

649
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: had already been shot twice in the past, you know,

650
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: I think he still had a bullet in his body.

651
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: People have been trying to kill him, and he finally dies,

652
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: but they could not figure out who did it. It

653
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: was like she poisoned him and the lover shot him

654
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 1: or beat him with a baton. I can't remember which one,

655
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: and they could not prove which were the what was

656
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: the thing that killed him? And so both of them

657
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: essentially got like attempted murder and didn't serve very much

658
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: time at all. So I find that confusing. I guess

659
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: that is you actually have to know who actually did

660
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: the killing killing to charge with first degree murder. I

661
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: didn't think that was the case. Oh that was a

662
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: big eye roll.

663
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: Well, because you know this is now getting to where,

664
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: you know, when you start getting into kind of the

665
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 2: weeds on the elements of the crime and different das,

666
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 2: Some das are much more aggressive than others in terms

667
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 2: of I can prove this case. You know, now, when

668
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 2: you have a scenario where let's say you have two

669
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 2: that you think are involved, but you don't know which

670
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: one actually inflicted the fatal injuries, I can see where

671
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 2: there would be a DA that will go, yeah, I'm

672
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: charging both of them. You know, there's enough proof for

673
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: both of them, and possibly another DA going you keep investigating,

674
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: you know it's not clear. I want something clear, you know,

675
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 2: to take in front of a jury.

676
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you that police in London in

677
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two are very alarmed by the discovery of Fred.

678
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: The way this goes is in intervening two years when

679
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: Fred and Edith starting to have an affair. It sounds

680
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: like Percy doesn't know Fred rented a room from them.

681
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: He was in between jobs as a storekeeper on ships.

682
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: Sometime in the year leading up to Percy's murder. Percy

683
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: had evicted Fred because he suspected that Fred and Edith

684
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: were having an affair. Fred says when the police interviewed

685
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: him that on at least one occasion Percy had hit

686
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: Edith in front of Fred, and despite this, Fred and

687
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: Edith continued to see each other at hotels after Fred

688
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: was evicted, and police get a lot of this information

689
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 1: also from the tenant. So there's a female tenant who

690
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: moved into the extra room once Fred moved out, and

691
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 1: she confirmed this. She said, yeah, Percy hit Edith and

692
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: there was definitely arguments over Fred. So the police tracked

693
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: Fred down and he is, as I said, he worked

694
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: as a storekeeper on ship, so he's had a job.

695
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 1: He has a job on the S s Morea, which

696
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: is a ship he's supposed to be on and it's

697
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: going to set sail pretty much now, and it's docked

698
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: at Tilbury, which is at the mouth of the Thames River.

699
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 1: They find a lock box in his cabin and there's

700
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: love letters. So here's kind of the question that we have.

701
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear that somebody killed Percy Thompson.

702
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: I think it's clear that it's probably either Edith or

703
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 1: Fred or both. Do we agree on that so far?

704
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 2: I think that's most likely scenario.

705
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: Yes, So the question will be important in that what

706
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: evidence do we have, like real evidence going forward that

707
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: both were involved, because they're both being focused on at

708
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: this point. And you know, there are a lot of

709
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: rumblings about wrongful convictions, and I'll tell you that this

710
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: case is one of the cases that potentially led to

711
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 1: the abolishment of the death penalty in the UK. Okay,

712
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: so we'll see. Okay, So they find this lock box.

713
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: There are love letters in the lock box, and it

714
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: sounds like Edith in one of these letters is alluding

715
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: to an attempted poisoning of Percy. She said in a

716
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: kind of an accusatory manner. It says, sounds like to Fred,

717
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 1: she writes, Fred, you said it was enough for an elephant,

718
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: meaning to kill an elephant, I to I mean, I

719
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: see this all the time. Being a poisoner is not

720
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: that easy. You really have to know what you're shaking

721
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: your head, you can know what you're doing, I mean,

722
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: not anybody. It's just so she said, basically, you know,

723
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,240
Speaker 1: you messed up your dosage. It didn't work. It sounds

724
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: like they've been plotting, or at least she's been plotting this.

725
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is obviously a major clue, you know, in

726
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 2: terms of pointing the finger at both Edith and Fred

727
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: in terms of what happened to Percy that night, kind

728
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 2: of wondering is her life insurance policy on Percy?

729
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: I have not seen that that there is a life

730
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: insurance policy, but it does sound like as things kind

731
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: of go forward, she is pretty miserable with him and

732
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: wants to be out of that relationship. Not that I

733
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: have seen now, but that's definitely a possibility. They find

734
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: also in this cabin that Fred's overcoat is there, and

735
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: it is also caked with blood. It's not a rocket

736
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: science to figure out it. I'm sure it's Percy's blood.

737
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: So this is more hard evidence. So Fred is clearly

738
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: at least there, if not the one holding this knife,

739
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: I assume, right.

740
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, so of course in this day and age,

741
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 2: we have to show that that's Percy's blood. Yeah. Was

742
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: Fred given an opportunity to explain where that blood came from?

743
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: And typically they'll make up something you know, I ran

744
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: over an animal, or you.

745
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 1: Know, I'm a butcher, something like.

746
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 2: That, the butchers. So I'm assuming if that if Fred

747
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 2: has a coat that has Percy's blood on it. Then

748
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 2: Fred is out there at the homicide scene. Yeah, and

749
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: likely is the one that is got the knife. Yep.

750
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: Okay, now this is interesting and you have to tell

751
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: me the morals about this. Okay. So it's now Thursday, Thursday,

752
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: and Edith is already being held in the matron's quarters

753
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: of a local jail where all the ladies are, and

754
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: Fred is brought to the same building. The police decide

755
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: to walk them past each other to see how they're

756
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: going to react, and Edith says, why did he do it?

757
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 1: I didn't want him to do it? Oh god, oh god,

758
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: what can I do? I must tell the truth? Roh

759
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 1: for Fred sounds like.

760
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 2: She didn't to make a big turn on him.

761
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

762
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 2: That's why. That's why you know the police did that

763
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 2: is they recognized, you know, they've got two people, and

764
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: now it's well, how loyal are these two people to

765
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 2: each other? And it turns out Edith jumped on the

766
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: opportunity to start pointing a finger.

767
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: Okay, well, listen to this. So she said, yes, I

768
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: saw him attack Percy. I did not want him to

769
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: do it, but she also didn't want to implicate him,

770
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: and that's why you know she did and say something further.

771
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: This seems risky though, because why believe her. I guess

772
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: sty'll look at the evidence. But I know it's sort

773
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: of like the first one who puts her hand up

774
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: gets the deal. But this still seems pretty risky. She

775
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: doesn't know what friend's going to say. Maybe Fred's gonna deny,

776
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: who knows, you know, it just seems risky to me.

777
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 2: Well, she's she's trying to preempt Fred. You know, when

778
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 2: she sees that Fred is now you know, essentially if

779
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 2: he's being taken into this this ward area, she sees

780
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: that he's with law enforcement, what's he saying to law enforcement?

781
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 2: You know, she's now her wheels are spinning going, uh, oh,

782
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: he's going to dine me out. I bet her front

783
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: information that minimizes my role in the homicide and maximizes

784
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: Fred's role. You know. And so now this is self preservation.

785
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: But just because she's the first one to offer information,

786
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 2: that's not like, Okay, well she's going to get the deal.

787
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 2: You know, now you take that information and now you're

788
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: telling Fred Edith has just dimed you out. What do

789
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 2: you have to say? And see what he says, you know,

790
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 2: and this is that classic uh oh, the movie La

791
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: Confidential where they have, you know, two different suspects and

792
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: two different interview rooms. And I think it's Russell Crowe

793
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: going back and forth or one are the investigators going

794
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 2: back and forth and in essence playing each guy off

795
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: of each other, and then next thing, you know, somebody's

796
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: actually telling the truth, you know, And that's that's what

797
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 2: I think these investigators were starting the process. And at

798
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 2: least right now in the case, Edith is the one

799
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: that took the bait.

800
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: Well, let's see if Edith's telling the truth, you know,

801
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 1: Fred is surprised to see her. Edith says what she says.

802
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: Fred had initially said, I have no idea what you're

803
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: talking about. I didn't have any part of this. They

804
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: tell him, you know, that Edith had said I didn't

805
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: want him to do it. This is what Fred says.

806
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: Fred says, I killed him, and he says Edith had

807
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:02,919
Speaker 1: nothing to do with it.

808
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 2: Oh, I put some veracity on that. Okay, you know,

809
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 2: now part of the concern. Let's say Fred is in

810
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: love with Edith.

811
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: And he's twenty paul.

812
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: Just to remind us, so this is where you know,

813
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 2: he is letting his emotions kind of dictate protecting Edith,

814
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: So that would be my concern. But the fact that

815
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,919
Speaker 2: Fred is fronting I did it. I put some weight

816
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: on that because he could have just denied, denied, or

817
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 2: he could have said, she asked me to do this. Yeah,

818
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: And the fact that he didn't say she asked me

819
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: to do this, it's like, Okay, well he's he's putting

820
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 2: himself into this homicide. It's just now, is he protecting

821
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 2: Edith because of his romantic relationship with her? Or is

822
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 2: he telling the truth and he just acted alone and

823
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 2: decided to eliminate the husband so he could have Edith

824
00:44:58,880 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: all to himself.

825
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: Well, this is the mystery. It is not who killed

826
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: him necessarily, it's does Edith know what happens? So this

827
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 1: is the statement. It's not too long, but I want

828
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: to read the whole thing. Fred says, I wish to

829
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: make a voluntary statement. Missus Edith Thompson was not aware

830
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: of my movements. On Tuesday, third October, I left Maynor Park.

831
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: So now I need you to make sure all everything

832
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: he's saying lines up with the evidence. Paul I left

833
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: Maynor Park at eleven PM and proceeded to Ilford. I

834
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: waited for Missus Thompson and her husband. When near in

835
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: Sleigh Gardens, I pushed her to one side, also pushing

836
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: him further up the street. I said to him, you

837
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: have got to separate from your wife. He said no,

838
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: I said you will have to. We struggled. I took

839
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: my knife from my pocket and we fought, and he

840
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 1: got the worst of it. Missus Thompson must have been spellbound,

841
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: for I saw nothing of her during the fight. I

842
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: ran away through in Gardens, through Wanstead, Leytonston, Stratford, got

843
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: a taxi at Strafford to Aldgate, walked from there to

844
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 1: Finnchurch Street, got another taxi to Thornton Heath, then walked

845
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: to Upper Norwood, arriving home about three am. The reason

846
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: I fought with Thompson was because he never acted like

847
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: a man to his wife. He always seemed several degrees

848
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: lower than a snake. I loved her and I could

849
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: not go on seeing her leading that life. I did

850
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: not intend to kill him, I only meant to injure him.

851
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: I gave him an opportunity of standing up to me

852
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: as a man, but he wouldn't. I have had the

853
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: knife sometime. It was a sheath knife. I threw it

854
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: down a drain when I was running through en Sleigh gardens.

855
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: And that is his statement. What do you think, does

856
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 1: it ring true to you?

857
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 2: I called bullshit?

858
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: Oh okay, First.

859
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 2: Kind of dissecting the statement, you know, he's an since

860
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 2: pushing Edith away, minimizing her involvement in the homicide, and

861
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: now he is confronting Percy, and he's bringing up an

862
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 2: excuse as to why he feels he has to confront

863
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,959
Speaker 2: Percy to give Percy an opportunity to be a man.

864
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 2: You know, So it's such a self serving. Look at me,

865
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 2: I'm the man in this scenario. Now, this whole thing

866
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: about his escape path and everything else that could be accurate.

867
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 2: But part of assessing what Fred is doing here is, well,

868
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: we have to take a look at the totality of

869
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 2: the information that we have, and we have evidence that

870
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 2: Edith and Fred conspired to poison Percy. Edith was fully aware.

871
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 2: She's like the one that is actually administering the poison.

872
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 2: Sounds like Fred's the one that told her this is

873
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 2: what is going to work to kill your husband. So

874
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: you have a prior act that the two were involved with.

875
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: Then we have Percy and Edith walking home, right, they

876
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 2: get off the train and they're walking home, and now

877
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 2: I start to question as to well, did Fred know

878
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: that ahead of time? How did he know that ahead

879
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:14,439
Speaker 2: of time?

880
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 1: Yeah?

881
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 2: Did Edith tell him this is where we're going to

882
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 2: be at And it just so happens that Fred finds

883
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: what sounds like the perfect location to be able to

884
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,240
Speaker 2: jump out and ambush Percy.

885
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 1: I think you're right, Paul, because Percy knew Fred. Obviously

886
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: they had lived in the same, you know, apartment, So

887
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: I guess you could say Fred was maybe stalking him

888
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: and Edith didn't know. But he would have been spotted.

889
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: I mean, he's twenty, he's not some CIA agent. He

890
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: would have been spotted. So yes, I think you're probably right.

891
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And then you know, part of what

892
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 2: I'm kind of curious about, you know, how Fred is

893
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: saying that him and Percy got into a physical fight,

894
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: you know, and that that Percy got the worst of it. Well,

895
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 2: was there any injuries on Fred? And do we have

896
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 2: any information on that? It doesn't sound like there is.

897
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 2: There's nothing significant on Fred, you know. And then I'm like,

898
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 2: you know, what you've got to stab to the back

899
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: of the neck. You got to stab to the neck.

900
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 2: This it sounds more akin to more of an ambush

901
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 2: style attack. Fred lies and wait, you got the little

902
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 2: cubbies if you will, along this route that the original

903
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: investigators said, the offender likely weighted in one of these

904
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: cubbies and he jumps out, stabs Percy and he probably

905
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 2: runs off very quickly after that, and then Edith comes

906
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: up with initially husband, you know, fell down and hit

907
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: his head and that's why he's dead, possibly being naive

908
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: to the types of physical evidence that law enforcement can

909
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 2: use to discern. Oh no, this isn't a accident, this

910
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 2: is actual homicide. He's got stab wounds, right, So I'm

911
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 2: not buying Fred's statement. I think he is trying to

912
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: prot Edith and he's trying to, you know, in essence,

913
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 2: maximize his role. And again, twenty year old in love

914
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: with the older woman, you know, I think that's what's

915
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: going on.

916
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: Well, you know, is there enough evidence he's confessed? She hasn't.

917
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 1: Is there enough evidence to convict her of murder, which

918
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: is a capital crime in England? Right now? Is there

919
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: enough evidence for her?

920
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 2: I'm going through my head trying to think about the

921
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 2: various bits of information. There's definitely, I think proof that

922
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 2: Edith was lying. She changes her statement from the early

923
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 2: statement about Percy falling down to she's now seeing Percy

924
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 2: being attacked. You know. I think it really does come

925
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 2: down to whether or not there is sufficient evidence that

926
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 2: would support that she arranged this homicide. She was an

927
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 2: excessive to this homicide. Fred's the killer, He's one wielding

928
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 2: the knife. But did Edith provide the information to Fred?

929
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 2: Did she ask Fred to do this? And that one,

930
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 2: I think is a much tougher sell with the information

931
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 2: at hand. And this is where you know that those

932
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 2: previous letters that the poisoning attempt, You know, is there

933
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: a possibility, if that was even admissible, to be able

934
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,399
Speaker 2: to get the jury to convict her for some charge? Yeah,

935
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 2: you know, almost like a murder for higher type of scenario.

936
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, listen, nineteen twenty two, the police charge them

937
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 1: both with first orge murder and they are both convicted

938
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 1: in sentenced to death. Fred is stoic and he never

939
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: implicates her, and she collapses and they are both hanged.

940
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: In January of nineteen twenty three, a woman hanged over

941
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 1: what I consider to be pretty shaddy evidence. I mean,

942
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: I know there's stuff there, and I know there's a

943
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: there there, but I don't know. I mean, put her

944
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 1: in life in prison. I don't know. If this case

945
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: makes me uncomfortable, and it is one of the reads.

946
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: It's an important case in the UK because of the

947
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: question of whether or not this woman should have been

948
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 1: executed when there's a big question mark about whether she

949
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: was involved at all. I think she probably was. I

950
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: think you think she probably was. But legally is she responsible?

951
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: I don't know.

952
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think you know, when she is not

953
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 2: the one who's actually committing the murder and she's just

954
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 2: asking for it to happen and possibly leading Percy to

955
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: his death, you know there is criminal culpability there. But

956
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 2: is it at the level of first degree murder with

957
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 2: special circumstances. I'm not sure that there's a case there.

958
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: I don't either. I mean, I think it's right and

959
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: we don't talk about the death penalty and or feeling

960
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: about it. But what a story. I know that it

961
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,439
Speaker 1: seemed like it was going to be pretty clear cut

962
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 1: from the beginning. But the thing I think about with

963
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 1: these kinds of stories are you know, there's a difference

964
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: between what you know and what we can prove, and

965
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: it makes me uncomfortable when there are cases where you know,

966
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: you're so certain that somebody is guilty, and you know

967
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 1: there's an enough evidence and they still get convicted. And

968
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: it's like, well, okay, you know, am I going to

969
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: get convicted on shotty evidence when I didn't do anything wrong?

970
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: How many murderers are I've been let free? Or how

971
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 1: many innocent people have been convicted when they shouldn't have been.

972
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 1: And I think this is one of those cases where

973
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: I just kind of go gosh. I mean, I need

974
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: her to be punished, because I really do feel like

975
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 1: she was involved. It just sounds like it. But executing

976
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: someone on evidence like that just made me uncomfortable. And

977
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:45,959
Speaker 1: I like to make you uncomfortable, Paul, So I wanted

978
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 1: to see how you were going to react to this.

979
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't feel uncomfortable in terms of the deployment

980
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: of the death penalty. It's so swift in this case. Yeah,

981
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 2: And I personally do not feel that the evidence adds

982
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:06,240
Speaker 2: up to where she could even be charged with murder,

983
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 2: you know, So that's where I think the sentencing is

984
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 2: way off base with Edith. I do believe she is

985
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 2: involved based on the totality of the information provided it

986
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 2: does I can see where this case would be something

987
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 2: where people would question the use of the death penalty

988
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 2: and sometimes maybe the over use of it. And you

989
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 2: can have just over time, you know, and we've seen

990
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 2: with exonerations that have occurred with DNA, where you see

991
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 2: truly innocent people convicted of, you know, really horrific crimes

992
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: and even sentenced to death. And sometimes, you know, you

993
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 2: have very very skilled prosecutors that can take circumstantial evidence

994
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,839
Speaker 2: and get a jury of twelve to convict even when

995
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 2: the case is weak. But then that person is now

996
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 2: convicted of you know, first degree murder with the you know,

997
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 2: the special cirque and eligible for death. And it is scary,

998
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 2: you know, from that perspective, we know that we've had

999
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,479
Speaker 2: innocent people executed in this country and over in the UK.

1000
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 2: At some point legislators over there recognize, you know what,

1001
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 2: we probably have to adjust our our sentencing structure to

1002
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 2: prevent people from being overcharged and losing their life.

1003
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, Paul, I think you should go and enjoy

1004
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: your bourbon, not Scotch, for sure.

1005
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 2: Because you hate Scotch.

1006
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: I bet you drink it if there was nothing else.

1007
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: But I you know, I can do it. I can

1008
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 2: do a poor Scotch. I like it. I like the PD.

1009
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know what that means, but I'm

1010
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 1: assuming it's something that you enjoy. So that's good.

1011
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: Scott Scotch has like a smoky and imped because it,

1012
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 2: you know, it uses. I think it's the peaked out

1013
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 2: there and so it's a distinct flavor. But it's a

1014
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 2: very strong flavor. So I can do a single poor,

1015
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 2: but I have to go back to my bourbon.

1016
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: We'll go back to your burb and you might need

1017
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: a double for next week, but I'll give you a

1018
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: warning beforehand.

1019
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 2: Okay, as always, I'm looking forward to it.

1020
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 1: Let's see you later, all right, take care. This has

1021
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production for our sources and show

1022
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

1023
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

1024
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1025
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1026
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1027
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa.

1028
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 2: Lilac, Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and

1029
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 2: Daniel Kramer.

1030
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1031
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: Baried Bones.

1032
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1033
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

1034
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now, and

1035
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life life solving America's

1036
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: cold Cases is also available now