WEBVTT - What Happened to the CDC? 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:10.360 Welcome to Prognosis. I'm Laura Carlson. It's day thirty three 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:17.360 since coronavirus was declared a global pandemic. Our main story today. Historically, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:21.360 the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is the 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:26.400 agency in charge of predicting and containing an outbreak, but 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.520 as COVID nineteen ravages the country, the agency has taken 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.840 a back seat to the White House. CDC director Robert 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:39.159 Redfield talked to Bloomberg about the agency's changing role and 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:44.520 its missteps early on in the crisis. But first, here's 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:56.279 what happened today. Talk is increasingly turning to how and 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.840 when the US can restart its economy and what a 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:05.880 rebooted economy would look like. Dr Anthony Faucci, the top 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.839 infectious disease expert in the US, said Monday that parts 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:12.560 of the US could be ready to ease up on 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:18.120 coronavirus related restrictions in May, but Faucci and many others 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:24.360 say that would depend on widespread testing becoming available. Faucci 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:26.840 also said the US could see a second wave of 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.479 the virus in November. The likelihood that the outbreak will 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.919 keep coming and going in cycles has Neil Cash Kari, 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:39.520 president of the Minneapolis Federal Reserve, predicting eighteen months of 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:44.320 rolling shutdowns. Cash Cary said on CBS's Face the Nation 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:48.600 that without a vaccine or therapy for COVID nineteen, we 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.600 will continue to have to reimpose and then ease social 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:58.720 distancing restrictions to keep the virus contained. About that vaccine, 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.480 the World Health Organization has said there are seventy coronavirus 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.760 vaccines in development around the world. Three of them are 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:13.240 already being tested in human trials. Hong Kong company Cancino 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:18.160 Biologics and Beijing's Institute of Biotechnology have the two drugs 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:22.120 that are farthest along in the pipeline. Scientists are working 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.160 at an unprecedented speed to get a vaccine to market 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.240 in the next year to eighteen months. It's a process 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:34.600 that usually takes ten or fifteen years, and the Centers 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.320 for Disease Controlled Director Robert Redfield said in recent interviews 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:42.280 that the coronavirus has stabilized across the US and he 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.079 thinks the country is close to a peak in cases, 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:49.400 but the US still leads the world in new cases, 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:52.920 and New York reported its death toll shot past ten 0:02:53.040 --> 0:03:01.000 thousand over the Easter weekend. Now for our main story, 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:07.600 what happened at the CDC. We've traditionally thought of the 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:11.120 CDC as being the agency in charge of detecting and 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:16.080 tamping down outbreaks of disease. But when it comes to coronavirus, 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.320 they have been criticized for getting off to a late 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:23.799 inadequate start with testing, and the agency has not been 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:28.080 the public face of the disease response. They've largely taken 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:31.120 a back seat to the White House and its task force. 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.040 I recently had the chance to speak with Bloomberg reporters 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:39.760 Michelle fake Cortez and John Tozzi. They interviewed Robert Redfield 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.480 for over an hour about the CDC's response to the pandemic. 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.040 To start off, I asked Michelle to tell a bit 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:54.480 about the overall history and mission of the agency. The 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.960 CDC has been viewed as the gold standard worldwide when 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:01.600 it comes to controlling infectious disease. Is even in China. 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.120 Their agency there is known as the Chinese CDC, and 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.960 everybody has looked to the US to control these sorts 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.600 of outbreaks and to understand what's happening on the in 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:15.320 the world. The CDC researchers and staff members have actually 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:17.520 been the ones who have trained many of the people 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:23.000 worldwide who handle infectious disease outbreaks. So in the United States, 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:28.279 all of our politicians are leaders public health officials across 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.479 the entire country. Really thought that the CDC was the 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:37.200 premier institution that would be directing the entire way that 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:41.120 the government is going to respond. And the CDC director 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.960 is Robert Redfield. Tell me about it. Robert Redfield is 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.920 absolutely a renowned virologist in America. It's amazing because he 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:54.240 is probably one of the people who are most ideally 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:59.240 situated to be attacking this situation head on. He served 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.520 for twenty years and the U. S. Army Medical Corps. 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:05.080 He was a founding director of the Department of Retroviral Research, 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.679 which was part of the military's HIV research program. After 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:11.960 he retired from that position, he founded the Institute of 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:15.200 Human Virology at the University of Maryland. He knows what 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:17.960 he's talking about when it comes to viruses in virology, 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:23.240 and he knows how to handle terrifying, unexpected new outbreaks 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:28.040 of disease. So the CDC is led by this renowned expert, 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.160 and the country was counting on them to manage the 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.520 coronavirus response, but there have been a lot of mistakes 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:40.320 made by the CDC, particularly around testing John what happened there. 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.960 I think from the kind of early weeks of the 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:49.240 outbreak in the United States, there was a sense that 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:54.400 we did not have enough tests or fast enough tests 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.400 to really detect the virus as it was, you know, 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.520 maybe spreading silently in some communities. The CDC developed the 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.840 first test in the United States, but when it sent 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.760 that test to state public health labs, it didn't work 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.919 and that set set the whole country back for a 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:17.320 couple of CREWFI weeks. YouTube interviewed Robert Redfield about all this. 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.200 What is his opinion of how the agency has performed, 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:25.160 particularly when it comes to coordinating public response to the outbreak. 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:30.440 Redfield defended how the CDC responded to the outbreak, and 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.280 he said that a lot of the kind of narratives 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:37.360 out there about the agency were incorrect. He said that 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:42.039 the CDC is still the premier public health agency in 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:45.479 the world, and he thought that the the agency would 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:47.880 actually come out of this with its with its reputation 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:53.760 and its capabilities enhanced um and specifically on the question 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.159 of testing. He said that the CDC did its job, 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.800 that it developed an initial test quick really once the 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:05.400 genetic sequence of the virus was available. They had a 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.520 test that worked at the CDC headquarters in a week 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.520 or just over a week, and that you know there 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.239 was a failure when you know, there was a problem 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:19.280 when the that test was sent to state public health labs. 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.640 That took a couple of weeks to correct. UM. But 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:27.520 the question more of more broad testing capacity in hospitals, 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:32.120 in commercial labs. Um, you know, the ability of people 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.960 who think they are sick or think they might have 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.600 the virus to actually find out on a broad scale. 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.600 He essentially said that that's not the responsibility of the 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:46.119 Centers for Disease Control, that that's the responsibility of uh, 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:52.040 you know, the healthcare industry and the clinical laboratories in 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:56.440 the United States. I think that that's exactly where the 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.960 rub is here. The thing is is that Americans expected 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.920 the CDC to be front and center. We expected them 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.360 to be the ones telling us what we should all 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:09.080 be doing. We do have doctors doing that. Dr Anthony Fauci, 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.800 Dr Deborah Bricks. They're both brilliant people who have a 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.520 lot of experience in this as well. But generally we 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:19.720 don't think of the State Department or the National Institute 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:24.520 for Allergies and Infectious Diseases as controlling outbreaks of disease. 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.680 That's what the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.640 supposed to be. And I think that's where the disconnect is. 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:35.160 And perhaps this touches on a much more broad question 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:40.520 about when really the US government lost control of its 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.199 ability to contain the spread of the virus. We don't 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.839 fully know the answer to that, but I do think 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.839 there are a couple of important things to consider. First 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:54.160 of all, early on in January, the criteria for who 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:59.000 would actually be tested were fairly narrow. Um they were 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:02.760 looking at people who were potentially exposed through travel too 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:07.120 affected areas in China and who had symptoms. You know, 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.120 if there were travel related cases that didn't, you know, 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.400 fit those criteria, they might not have been tested. And 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:15.760 I think I think we still don't know the answer 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:20.160 to whether there were introductions in that period that we 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:22.840 you know, that we just weren't aware of because we 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.960 weren't looking for them. I think it's an illusion that 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.480 we ever had control over this virus. At all. I 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.520 don't think that we know definitively when it first arrived 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:33.400 in the US. I don't think that we know how 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.560 it has spread since it arrived. And it all comes 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.960 back down to not testing more broadly. You know, in 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.679 the in the early weeks, you know, when this was 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:47.880 primarily spreading overseas, most of the information in the United 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.640 States about the outbreak, I think was coming directly from 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:56.679 the Centers for Disease Control. They were doing regular media briefings, 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.599 and as it escalated in the United States, those briefings 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.600 stopped and they were sort of replaced by these White 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:08.320 House news conferences led by the President every day. But 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.440 if you look at what the professionals of the CDC 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.880 were saying back in February, they were saying that the 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.880 United States needs to be prepared for a pandemic. They 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.960 were warning that, you know, schools might close, that daily 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:25.440 life might be seriously disrupted. Um and those warnings turned 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.280 out to be true. And they were saying these things, 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:32.360 you know, when the politicians, uh and the President often 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:35.720 weren't saying that publicly. And now you know, those voices 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.439 are not the ones we're hearing from anymore. And I think, 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.520 you know, for for a lot of people, that's that's concerning. 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.600 What is I think notable is that the agency that 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:51.160 houses the most expertise within the US government that was um, 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:56.160 you know, correct in its UM cautions or warnings UH 0:10:56.320 --> 0:11:00.480 weeks ago is is really not being hurt from in 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:05.120 significant meaningful ways UM. And that affects uh, you know, 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:10.280 everybody's ability to understand what's going on and make decisions 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:14.200 based on it. I do think that they are having 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.600 that kind of an effect behind the scenes. I do 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:22.320 think that they are sharing their expertise and giving advice 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:27.319 and guidance to state and public health laboratories, to state 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:32.160 and public health infection control workers. They're having phone calls 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.440 with individual groups. So I do think that they are 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:40.280 still having a major impact on how we're handling this virus. 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.760 I just don't think that the American people are seeing 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.480 it the way we expected it. Do you think that 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:50.679 this has permanently tarnished UM the CDC's reputation, both in 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.640 terms of a response to a pandemic, but just in 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:58.400 general is overall role in American health. I think that 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.880 we definitely are going to have a different view of 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:04.520 the CDC going forward, I'm not entirely sure if tarnished 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.520 is the right word. I think that the CDC themselves 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.640 are saying that they don't feel like in this outbreak, 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.240 where it is a national disaster across every level of 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.480 our country, that it should be the c d C 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.920 that is brought and center on that, and I do 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.280 think that a lot of people expected that to be 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.559 the case. So whether or not it's just a realignment 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.839 of what the CDC's role should actually be, or whether 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.840 it's it's just a diminishment of their role. Also, when 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.000 the next outbreak comes, certainly we hope that will be 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.200 a little bit more prepared for that one and maybe 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:44.960 it'll play out differently. That was Michelle Fake Cortes and 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:49.720 John Tozzi discussing their interview with the CDC director. And 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.480 that's it for the Prognosis Daily edition. For more on 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:57.199 the pandemic from our bureaus around the world, visit Bloomberg 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:02.520 dot com, slash Coronavirus and One Small Favor. If you 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.920 like what we're doing, please take a second to rate 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.000 the podcast and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.520 or Spotify. It helps more listeners find our global reporting. 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.280 The Prognosis Daily Edition is hosted by Me Laura Carlson. 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.600 The show is produced by Me Tophor Foreheads Jordan Gaspore 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:26.400 and Magnus Hendrickson. Today's main story was reported by Michelle 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.920 fay Cortes and John Tozzi. Original music by Leo citran. 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.640 Our editors are Francesca Levi and Rick Shine. Francesco Leviy 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.280 is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. Thanks for listening.